Swords, Sorcery, and Socialism - Everything Everywhere All At Once [Unlocked Bonus]

Episode Date: March 14, 2023

In honor of all the awards and hype around this movie right now, we decided to unlock this bonus episode from last summer! Existential nihilism, dadaist art, and how the internet has broken everyone's minds. It's genuinely one of our best.patreon.com/swordsandsocialismEmail: [e-mail] The Show: @SwordsNSocPodAsha: @Herbo_AnarchistKetho: @StupidPuma69 patreon.com/swordsandsocialismEmail: [e-mail] The Show: @SwordsNSocPodAsha: @Herbo_AnarchistKetho: @MusicalPuma69

I'm gonna bring it up at some point, but I watched a video. Recently, it actually just came out from one of my subscriptions on YouTube. Pop culture detective, I don't know if you've heard of who he is. I've heard of it, yeah. Yeah, but he does a lot of deconstructions of masculinity and shit in movies. One of my favorites is him saying that the Jedi-iron problematic, which is true. But his most recent video was about Weyman. Oh, Weyman is so cool. Yeah, I love Weyman.

A portrayal of active non-toxic masculinity. Masculinity. But probably I was at things. non-toxic masculinity, masculinity. Probably as a thanks. Yeah, and the writers, the David's, in quotation marks. It's no Daniels. Yeah, the Daniels, sorry. The Daniels in quotation marks, they set out on purpose to do that,

to try and subvert the very like ingrained, the whole hero's story as being, as being one where you get somebody like Peter Parker or something like this very beta male who learns to become alpha male through aggression and like the ability to punch things good and how this is like a core arc throughout 90% of all media, just period.

And women's whole thing like the climax of his characters and standing up and being like, can we all please not fight? Yeah, can we just be kind and be nice to each other and like how the audience kind of has their own character arc in a way regarding women to where you go from thinking the same that Evelyn does. That's kind of silly. Thinking he's kind of silly that he's naive, that he's childish, into realizing that no, he's not naive at all, he's actually very active, especially given the fact that they even do, they even pull it with the divorce papers to make you think initially that Evelyn gave the divorce papers because she's the the go getter

you know she's the one that does stuff. But it's actually him. It's actually Waman that delivered the papers. Sorry everyone as you could tell from this is a bonus episode so I don't do the music or the intro or whatever but we're talking about everything everywhere all at once. The movie that came out like I don't know a few months ago, probably, it's about multiverse and nihilism, more, basically. And it's really, really good. I loved this movie.

It was so much fun. And do you know how much it blew my mind when I realized that Waymond was chore-round? I know. And what's his name from the Goonies? Yeah. I can't remember his character his name from the Goonies? Yeah. I can't remember his character's name in the Goonies. Even though I say his character's name from Indiana Jones, and like, it's not racist, but it feels racist.

Yeah. Like, it doesn't, it's not like a stereotype or anything that I know of, but it just feels like it would be. So yeah, everything overall at once. Yeah, we can start off with like, well, technically there's like two male characters in this movie that matter. It's Waymond and her dad. Because me and I don't remember. I don't either. But he's also like, he was the, he's also been around for a long time because he was, oh, James Hong, because he was in like

big trouble in little China. He was the bad guy from big trouble in little China. So he's been around for a long time. I mean, yeah, that's also kind of why when you see him at first, like, I feel like he's going to be a bad guy in a way. And like he, he's not, he's not, but he is. But that's also the answer for literally everyone in the movie. That's not Waymond

That's true. They're kind of bad, but not really, but maybe Also, I just really love saying that in jobu to pakki. It's a great fuck jobu to pakki It's a great word to say like just like series of words. It just flows from the mouth really well. I love it Um, so let's you know we can finish off what we started with with a little bit is that the masculinity bit where, yeah, wayman's whole thing is like an active being nice. Yeah. Yeah. And active. I mean, honestly, it's just, even in the way that the video presents it is very like, it's difficult to describe because it's not like a trope. Like you don't see it in film at all. It just doesn't happen.

So if you're a nice man that there's not even a trope about it. Yeah, it's like there's so few, there's so few in quotation marks of beta male-esque traits that are presented as a good thing. And normally when you see those traits presented, it's in some sort of like, in my mind, in me pops up some sort of nerdy scientist character who's like pushing his glasses up and going,

well, actually, you know what I mean? Like some guy that's like actually kind of skeasy, like he seems really nice, but he's skeasy or is really nice and then just get to immediately left behind by the story. Yeah, it's or it's just one that is used for like comic relief and yeah, it's like the like these, they have them as like the if it excuse the phrasing sort of like the whipped husband of some yeah, that's exactly that's exactly like it's it's it's it's it's serial from like the first season of Archer when he's dating Lana. She's the one that's like out there like bossing and doing stuff and he's just like, I made

a stir fry. Are you gonna be home for dinner? And she's like, I have stuff to do. And he's like, but it's our time. You know what I mean? It's that very like whiny like kind of character that's met to be emasculating, like being nice is portrayed as being a masculine. And if there is a character arc for that person, it's usually like, there's this like moment where they're like, oh, I'm not going to do what you're doing. Do any more woman? Yeah. Well, I mean, staying on my my proves analogy, there's a whole episode where Cyril learns how to be a spy from archer. And like I think they're kind of lampooning it though, like that's kind of the point because archer's

piece of shit. Yeah, just like real dickbag like he's a real piece of shit. He's supposed to be like pointing out why James Bond is a bad person. And so like the fact that zero has to try to learn to be a bad person, like that's the whole joke. At the end, he's like, I don't want to do any of this. The sucks. And like that's the whole point. But that's just what I'm thinking of because they don't do that to Waymond.

Like they don't do that to him. I mean, they let him do cool stuff because they bring in like alternate universe, like universe one, Waymond. Well, you know what's really funny about that is what, what is the name of the, uh, the verse that they're from that this, that this beefcake version of Waymond is from. It's right. It's the alpha. It's it is actually the alpha. It's an alpha. It is actually the alpha version. He's called alpha waman. Like it's oh my god, it's not even hidden in the text. I'd never even thought that though,

because I just thought of it based off like that's alpha because that's the one where they learned how to do jump. I mean, that is, but it is also in the lore. But it is also the only one where waman like it's to beat the shit out of people with a fanny pack. And it's like even when you meet business Wayman like business Wayman is

The one where she's a movie star. Yeah, but business Wayman has the same worldview in that As regular way as regular way man That's like he's super nice and he's there to Explain that and you're not supposed to feel happy that this guy And he's there to explain that. And you're not supposed to feel happy that this guy went off and became a successful businessman because he doesn't have to be your happy. Because then he comes out and he's like,

in another universe, I would have loved to just wash laundry and do taxes with you. And it's like, oh, you feel bad for him, you don't feel so nice. Yeah, yeah, you feel so nice. So it's like you pity him for not having the initially what was seen as naive childish and weird sad life that he had with, with,

but that's, that's mostly the arc of the entire story because you're told in the beginning when alpha wayman is talking to her, he's like, look, of all the futures out there, this is the one where you made every decision wrong. You've accomplished nothing. This is the, like, the basically say, this is the worst timeline. And of any of the timelines. And the act that that entirely hinges upon is her running off with Raymond with Wayman at the beginning. Yeah. It's just a Raymond because I know. But it's like an oo speaking.

But I know that's not it. Calm down over there. The cat boy calm down. But I know that's not it. Calm down over there little cat boy calm down. Wait. Oh, wait. So, yeah, um, but like, yeah, that holy universe where she's made every decision wrong, the prime decision she made wrong was by running off from home with wayman. And then after that, making subsequently every decision wrong apparently, but that's the decision that saved the multiverse.

We again, that's, yeah, we're sort of pointing out all the little things for that sort of what I call like orbit the main like point here. Before we get into the philosophical bits, I think that's obviously where like the meat of this discussion lies. I want to have a brief like the detour into the actual sci-fi bit, the like multiverse jumping. There have been a number of what I call multiverse or multiverse adjacent movies out in the recent past, right? Like obviously it's super famous in like comic books, because that's how you just do something different with the story is by being like, well, that's a different universe. And then when you want to bring somebody back for a cameo,

you bring it back in from a different universe. I know we killed that character. Yeah. We killed that character in this world, but in the other world, he's still there. We got around death. So this is specifically the kind of multiverse theory, not where there's just like a sort, like a sort of number of mostly parallel worlds with a few major differences. This is the like every single decision you make spawns a different reality, right? Like, whether I like the borderline infinite realities based on how many decisions people are making. Yeah, it's something. Yeah, just infant, it is infinite because if there has to be a new one for every decision, every single person has ever made. Yeah. Because the idea

is that anytime any person makes a different decision, it affects everything else in reality. Now, I mean, you could be granular about it. Like, whether I take a drink from this right, might take a drink from my drink right now or 30 seconds from now, might not spawn separate reality, but there's no way to know that, because you might not know whether me taking the drink now or 30 seconds from now actually changes anything

in my life for anyone else's life. And this kind of, this view of what a multiverse is spawns from like an older science like thought experiment, you know, the idea of the infinite monkeys on infinite keyboards. Oh yeah, we'll eventually make Shakespeare. Yeah, it's like one will inevitably, you'll actually have an infinite number of monkeys that will write Shakespeare. Yeah, so this one is like given Every decision going different ways there is a Multiverse there is a version of reality where where I became a movie star. Yeah, it's like there's so many

Hold on sorry The coffees still sticking around but um, it's good. I don't edit and I don't do editing for bonus episodes to Well, hey everybody I had I had COVID last week I had COVID last week. I'm still getting over that It's fine, but Yeah, it's based on the we're basing the talking about the idea that like there is a universe for every possible outcome Yeah, there's there's and that's it like you're saying that's an old trope a fairly old one Yeah, it's it's it's less like a new multiverse is spawned every time you make a new decision and more like there are so many infinite

Universes out there that there's a universe for the only differences that one decision you made Yeah, but the way they presented is sort of like a web. Like when they do, they show the graphic of like jumping universes. Yeah. Yeah. Graphically, visually, it looked to me like one where they literally split every time a decision is made. Oh yeah. I'm just saying this idea of decision-based multiversus comes

from that like yeah that like initial thought experiment of the monkeys. Yeah and that there's there's a multiverse for everything. So prime or alpha figure out how to jump between the multiversus oh essentially you sort of like can tap into the version of you in whatever other reality you want by like thinking putting this little earpiece on thinking really hard about it and doing some sort of weird trigger activity. I don't think I really understood how that worked you just sort of have to do a thing that makes you uncomfortable. Like bite your lip or give yourself a paper cup between your fingers, which was possibly the most uncomfortable scene

in that entire movie. Yeah. Or she's trying to give yourself a paper cup. I'm comfortable in sympathy. I still feel like hot dog figures. Well, I'm uncomfortable in like, it makes me go, ugh, cause like I don't like that it makes me go, uh, because like I don't like that sort of thing. Like watching someone try to give themselves a

paper cut to me is, oh god, it's awful. Um, hot dog fingers is uncomfortable in a completely different way, but also enjoyable for that reason. Side note, Jimi Lee Curtis in this movie is fantastic. Oh, yeah, I didn't even realize it was her initially. Such a good job. Uh, this is the first movie where you get to say that there's such a thing as check-offs butt plug because they show it on your desk. Yeah. The first thing, like you see the butt plug award. That was like the second scene and you're like, that's weird.

But the way they zoom in on it, you're like, this is going to be a priority pig to so close attention to this butt plug. Butt plug work, they wait so long to actually make it happen that when it does happen, it's like a perfect check off gun because when you do see what's about to happen, you're like, yes. So I was just trying to think offhand if I knew any other story that

Use this sort of specific kind of like multiverse jumping we sort of like tap into your alternate self to get their skills And I also kind of reminded me of the matrix in a way where you can just sort of like download skills into your brain Except you can you can just only kind of do one of them at a time. Yeah, and you can only get them from like yourself. Yeah, you can't just back out, want to learn somebody else's skills, but ideally if there's infinite universes, there's a universe where you have that. So, you know, if you need to do astrophysics, there is a universe that you learned astrophysics in. Supposedly, can I just multiverse into a version of myself that just has general motivation? That would be nice.

I'm going to multiverse into the version of me that need doesn't hurt every day. I'm at work. That'd be pretty great. That'd be, that'd be really funny. You just, your multiverse power, just my need doesn't hurt. A working body. So I don't really know if I have much else to say about the actual sci-fi bit, because like the multiverse jumping while an integral part of the movie, you know what I mean? It's an integral part of the movie.

You can't get away without it. It almost, in a way, kind of, isn't that important to what the story is doing. I mean, yeah, it's not, you know what I mean? It almost feels more like a, this is just the device to make our story move forward. I heard someone like, I mean, it was just a YouTube comment, but I was, and usually the YouTube comments

when they're about like, when they're about, what a movie is about, they're like, usually they're like, yeah, they're either usually really wrong or they're just kind of like cute, you know, where somebody's like, I think the movie is about this and they'll go on like a six-page tangent. It's really sweet and you're like, uh, not really, but it's cute. not really but it's cute. But this one I thought made a little bit of sense in that like you could technically read the multiverse stuff as the internet. I have heard that argument too. I heard that somebody was talking about that. I listened to like a film review podcast and they were talking about how the multiverse stuff is just sort of doing a

Reflection of how the internet has affected younger generals because that's essentially what the internet does is everything everywhere all at once Yeah, and that's why it specifically affects the daughter because she's the one that's growing up with it and why Edmeline has to learn how to manage it Because her daughter was exposed to it young and Ergo became Jobu. Yeah. I mean, in a way, the internet is kind of doing that to a lot of people, and I'm not going to lay the blame on the concept of the internet itself, but like, no, it's just like, that's like, you know, laying the blame for a shooting on the gun. Yeah, it's a tool. So it, but at the same time, it's like, that's the sort of thing that the internet does now. You know, it gives you everything everywhere.

That's why I left Twitter. Yeah, like it sends you into a death spiral, essentially. Well, yeah, I think that's specifically what happened to the daughter who's like, I can't ever enjoy. You guys are also going to get to hear me ASMR, good diver, good-nosh chocolates. I haven't eaten dinner yet. All right. This is me snacking.

That's fine. So you can argue that like, snacking. That's fine. So you could argue that like joy and specifically her sort of evil counterpart, Joe Boutafaki, that what you know when Joe booze around, I think of specifically that first time you really encounter her in that hallway where she's fighting like the cop security guards and just constantly changing forms and like things just keep happening like suddenly she's got a dog and then there's fireworks and all the stuff happening that I heard that argued that sort of specifically a representation of the internet

because every two seconds, you're seeing something completely different. Every few seconds, you're seeing something new, something that unrelated to what you saw before and it all becomes this stream of consciousness of nonsense. Yeah. And it can overwhelm you. You know, it's really funny because it kind of falls into this weird, I was thinking

about this the other day, we think about like the late 2000s. Like the popular kind of mean, funny thing was like very like low random. But not in like a good way. But it's like you have this sort of sense of humor now that kind of reminds me of Joe Bucho Paki just the way she is. And it's like and you think it's still technically kind of low random but there's like this weird intentionality. So there's the random. There's an edge to it.

And I think that's going to take us into, I think, more the philosophy side of this, this movie. What is that so why late late 2010's memes are better than 2008 memes? Yeah. Look, I was on the internet like 2008 sucked. Like, I remember going to the fucking I can't have cheeseburger website. Okay. Like, it's just it's just very funny to me how you have two separate errors of comedy that both seem extremely random. Um, so what I think the difference is is something that this man's way better.

One that this movie specifically leans into is well nihilism. Oh, yeah, well, that's what this movie is about. But specifically an existentialism, but specifically an artistic movement that I have heard other people argue before that modern specifically internet culture sort of reflects, which is Dadaism. Woo. Yeah, it's that is. I love Dadaism.

I know. But like if you look at again, like Joe booze, like whole character and all the things changing, it's like as you were pointing out, it isn't just like a law, law so random. Here's a cheeseburger type stuff. It's like intentionally jarring. It's, it's, it's so much skipping from one thing to another thing that are unrelated

in all these other ways, that it could only be intentionally done that way. You know what I mean? As opposed to like, like, I don't, you know, some like really, some of those old vines or whatever, where like it just suddenly different. Like that's just, almost, that's like a joke version of a jump scare.

Yeah. Where I just sort of like, aha, and it's different. This is a much more, I don't know if this is the right word, but like cynical and intentional, intentional, intentional, like intentional, intense humor is way more cynical, even when it's doing something absurdly similar to I can't, Loll, can I have cheeseburger,

because now it's almost a reference to Loll, can I have cheeseburger and how stupid it was? Yeah, well, and I, this is a thought. How naive and optimistic it was. Yeah well and I this is a thought naive and optimistic it was. This is the thing that's occurring to me right now so it's incredibly half baked but you kind of see a little bit of both of those because some of these alternate realities like like Racka Kuni. Racka Kuni's funny don't give me around.. But Akikuni fits in more to me with that earlier version. Where it's like, we took a thing and made it different. You know what I mean? Like intentionally getting the name of something wrong

because it's funny. And that's a raccoon instead of a rat. Whereas like the hot dog fingers universe is a much more into like Intentionally dada is to version of that where it's like this is random in a way that's going to make You make you uncomfortable Mm-hmm, and I think that's the key difference in that sort of humor It's not that it's random bullshit. It's random bullshit set up in such a way that you're going to feel weird

Yeah, watching it like you're not supposed to feel good about it. You know what I mean? No, I'm not a specialist on sort of. I asked art or anything. I assume it's your job. But I think I think I'm sort of on the right track with that sort of the concept behind it. I did take away too many pictures of the doucheon room in the MoMA. Or it's just, I mean some of his art is actually just legitimately like, like he tried. Look, that kind of art is not specifically my favorite. But I even, I respect it. I respect it for how mad people get about it. Yeah, I like even better. It's like a couple of rooms before it. It's the fluxes room.

And like people aren't ready. Like because you like you walk in and you're like, oh, dottasms the weird one, isn't it? And it's like fluxes is like bleak, even more minimalist dottism, which is already fucking like someone just stuck a window frame in it like that's Dottism It's someone just took a wheel and called it art. Isn't that the fucking urinal too and yeah, yeah Well, the urinals the original like that's the original is like that's too sharp

There's no like also things like yeah, like saying like a Crap, I've got I like I'm not I wasn't prepped, but no, but then you have like fluxes that's like super freaking bleak even relative to that where everything is like empty white and this movie is also bleak a lot of the time. Yeah. list response to the incredibly nihilist fluxes. And so or vice versa, I really don't remember which came first. But it's so, but that's where the meat and potatoes of this movie is. Is it's demonstrated through this sort of goddess inspired setup. But really what's going on is a conversation about nihilism. And to my friends, associates that maybe nihilists, I apologize if I misrepresented, I'm not an expert. My philosophy classes were a long time ago.

So I apologize. I'm doing like that. I'm quickly trying to do my, my, on existentialism and absurdism. But that's a lot of reading that I was, I'll get off the bat for anyone who's going to get mad about definitions. Existentialism and nihilism are not the same. They cover a lot of the same feelings. They cover a lot of the same territory at times. Well, not almost like their problem. Well, they're not, they're not the same. However, there is a school of thought, which is existential nihilism,

where the two points, where those two things meet. And I think that's essentially where this movie lives. Well, yeah, it's, is at the point of actual, what even philosophers would call the crossover of existential nihilism. What I find particularly funny is a lot of people will be like, oh, isn't Nietzsche a nihilist?

I mean, he's an existentialist, really. But like, he's actually also a nihilist. He just depends on which thing you're reading, which he's talking about. Because in one, in one parts of, in those parts of his work, he's trying to explain to you, hey, look, we have to deal with this problem that is life has no inherent meaning. And he's like, because, because as, as people like Nietzsche and stuff are writing, it's like, this is like the big secular tide. A lot of people were getting incredibly disillusioned with religion. The famous quote, which everyone misuses,

which has got to stand, we have killed them. Yeah. Which everyone tries to, which like stupid people try to point out as being Nietzsche like celebrating the death of religion. No, he's not. He's actually pointing out that it kind of bad for humanity to have done so because because we know we don't have anywhere to go. Yeah, because when people talk about nihilism. It's like even the initial writers who would call who people would associate with it were pointing out nihilism as the issue Cause it's probably secularization that needed to be solved because they were like Even like Kyrgyzgaard. Yeah, because they were like secularism is probably true

Like a lot of them were atheists a lot or at least in one way or another whether it means that they were like just anti-Christian, whatever, but fundamentally they were secular individuals that had this problem of, well, religion kind of kept that at bay, but we still don't agree with religion. So we're starting to fall into like a nihilistic decay. How do we avert that in a secular world? to K, how do we avert that in a secular world? So, you know, and that's where you get some misconceptions. So like, Nietzsche actually, people think of him as a nihilist. I think the problem is people think of someone being

an iseless being like, this is what it is, and there's nothing to be done about it. Nietzsche had strong ideas about what should be done about it. He believes we actually needed to sort of accelerate nihilism so we could push through it into something new. Like, he didn't think nihilism was a place the human race should stay. He thought his whole thing was essentially looking at it, absorbing it, moving past it into something new. You know, other existential scenarios after him had different solutions. I'm sorry, I do have a little bug bear

about how people misuse Nietzsche a little bit because he wasn't a fascist. Yeah. That was his sister who published all of his work, who like fucked up a lot of his work that he had written and then published it in such a way to make it seem supportive of the Nazis or whoever. Like, Nietzsche himself would not have supported the Nazis

and his views aren't the way they're often portrayed. I have a bug bear about that. I'm sorry, maybe someday we'll get into it more. I'd say people can argue that they're like our occasional problematic things in Nietzsche. Of course though. You can very easily make that art. He lived in like 1890 or something.

Of course. And it's like, especially if someone tries to pull the, like, well, he influenced the Nazis part. It's like, I really don't care that much because a lot of people influence the Nazis. Yeah, and they took influence from places that would have hated them. It's like, there are a decent number of those sources would have been like, oh my God,

this is what someone did with this. Yeah, so it's like, it's like immediately destroying the credibility of anyone or anything that's attached to something that eventually got twisted by and used by bad people is like, well, I mean, that's kind of like everything. It's like, if that's the case, we got to throw Karl Marx out. A lot of fucking people have done horrible shit. Which is why. So it's like, and we, we please recenter ourselves.

So with this movie, the way I sort of describe it is, I, I don't know enough to specifically put names to which philosophers would have elucidated these thoughts. But I know they have been. I can lraddle off a list of existentialists and nihilists and maybe I'd hit the right one. Hey, we're gonna talk about Dostoyevsky. God, actually, more of my knowledge in nihilist comes a little bit later when you're talking about

like Jean-Paul Stathre. Or... Yeah, I'm just the existentialism comes with blood and does James. Sure does. There's a whole section of Niles specifically just Russian Niles. It's a whole thing. Yeah. But this movie to me, balance is talking about the push and pull, but between two kinds of, or two competing visions of nihilism, epitomized by Evelyn and Jobu. They, at the end, they are both expressing nihilist worldviews. The difference is, is their solution

or the sort of the what is to be done. They're sort of a positive nihilism and a negative nihilism. Again, those probably aren't the right terms. There's probably an actual philosophical term for what I'm describing. But the idea is that Jobu essentially looked at everything and because of the internet, aka the multiverse, saw every possibility there could ever be,

realized that none of it matters and that the answer to that is to just give up because none of it matters. You know, like that's the everything bagel is that like, well, it's got everything. And because I've seen it all, none of it means anything to me anymore because nothing is special, nothing is unique. I've seen it all. Well, and there's also an element, nothing is unique. I've seen it all. Well, and there's also an element of this is it.

Like, this is all there is. It's like, there's nothing better than this. Yeah, I've seen the best there is. This is it. Whereas Evelyn is what I would call where actually most existentialists and a lot of nihilists, I think as philosophers actually fall Because I don't think too many of them look at it and go well nothing matters. So we should all just give up Oh, yeah, no, no, I don't I don't think a single high-profile Person associated with nihilism has ever actually been like nihilism is good Yeah, all of them describe it even the people like I talked about even the people that we think of as nihilism is good. Yeah, all of them describe it. Even the people, like I talked about,

even the people that we think of as nihilists, all are saying this is a thing that exists. We need to figure out how to deal with it. That'd be like calling, you know, if I spent my whole life focusing on the fact that like, I don't know, people get hungry, and it's bad that people get hungry, calling me like a hungerist.

I'm like, no, I want to solve the hunger. That's the problem. Yeah. I mean, that's pretty much exactly what it is. So Evelyn represents is what most of these thinkers have thought about is, all right, nothing matters. We have accepted that nothing matters. Now what?

What's your next move? Where do you go from here? And the solution she comes up with is, well, the way I would describe it is that you have to make a meaning out of the things around you. So that's her revelation in the end is that she's like, yeah, this world I live in sucks, but that's fine. And there's the existentialism. Like, it's fine that it, like, it's isn't great. I run a laundromat, whatever. Like, we have bills, we have shit, we've got shit to do. But like, her line is that she'd rather be

in this shitty world with her daughter, you know, with joy. And so that's sort of that existentialist idea idea that like, yeah, it doesn't matter. The things that matter are the things that you actively choose to give meaning to. Right? I don't I feel like I'm representing that somewhat accurately. And so she, at the end of the movie, she wins by deciding, I'm going to invest meaning in these little interactions I have with my daughter. I'm an invest meaning in this relationship I have with my silly husband who puts Google's eyes on things. Even though I know there are other possibilities out there, this is the one I have and I'm going to make it meaningful, which obviously is like the opposition of Job being like, well, I've seen everything. This is the best there is.

Fuck it. The great, the, the girl who plays Joe Boob does an excellent job. Yeah. Oh, cast does an excellent job. It's just, they're just all good at what they're doing. Stephanie Sue, I think, I don't know, say her last name, but yeah, she's great. Um, Joe Boob is a great character. Even as I was watching this the first time, I was like, I haven't thought about nihilism

this much since I was in college. I mean, the, uh, the movie has the, I don't know, I think it, because I haven't seen quite this many stories of people just like up and leaving, um, in the middle of a film before. Um, oh, do a lot of people leave during this? up and leaving in the middle of a film before. Oh, do a lot of people leave during this walk out? Well, I mean, there's like obviously just uncomfortable, weird moments like the hot dog fingers, but I love hot dogs. I mean, yeah, it's really funny.

There's people just being squeamish for no reason. So weird. So it's like, I don't forgive these people, but what I do understand is, I mean, the movie can be deeply uncomfortable because it brings up a lot of questions that are just kind of sitting there in the background right now, especially right now. These sit in the background more now than they did when most of these existentialists were philosophers were writing their books about philosophy. Like the problem

of existentialism has only, or I should say the more, the more directly the nihilist question, I think, has only gotten stronger since like 1965. Well, yeah, and I think mostly because of both the Cold War and the internet. Since the end of history, oh, yeah, since the follows of union without. We've been left with societies, specifically, I'll be clear, specifically Western society, has been left with a question, well, fucking now what? Cold War's over now what? And then to that dynamic, we introduced the internet. And suddenly everyone got, suddenly everyone got access to see everything there could possibly be. And a lot of people have collectively gone, that's it.

The grass is no longer greener on the other side. No, it's really not. I mean, that's also the point of that phrase, is that it's not actually greener and yellowish. Yeah, it's not. You think it is. You get there and like, all this still sucks. I would argue there's also no way to think about this

without viewing it in a somewhat anti-capitalist lens, because I think this sort of existential dread we feel like, say, in America is also a result of the atomization and burnout associated with the state with the capitalism that we live in. Oh, yeah. Because we're like, we've been told, specifically like our generation, the people younger than us have been told growing, like, have been told growing up that we live in the best society

ever created. and it sucks. So it sort of reinforces that question and I think that's why you see so many people on Twitter going the route of Jobu. So I feel like, I feel like atomization especially, I think is really, really important to kind of focus on. Because the way a lot of people made, that's probably the main reason that it's gotten so bad the past 30 years. People used to deal with nihilistic problems like this in a community. It's like community ties, and even the point of this freaking movie. Like, hey, the meaning might be the people around you, wink, wink, wink, wink, but how many of us feel like we have people around us?

It's like this, that's why this ridiculous individualism of neoliberalism, where it just ever since Reagan really where it's like everything's on the individual, it's always the individual, everything's the individual, you're the only one that matters. It's like we've hit the point with the internet where you could almost argue that we are like borderline solipsistic. Where like people are so intensely focused on themselves. And even if you ask for it, like people are like, oh, how are you going to do this to make

your own life better? And it's like, what if that's not the fucking point? Like the point is that's a problem. Like the point is, this is a problem that everything is about you and making your life better. And you as an individual, achieving self-actualization. And it's done almost entirely devoid of community, by the fact that we are intensely, potentially the most one of,

if not the most social creatures on planet Earth. Like, we wouldn't be able to do, to have done. Pretty much anything that humanity has done up to this point, both good or bad without other people. So it's like, and combined the internet with that in the middle of this wave of hyper individualism It's like that's why I just get so pissed off when I see like I don't know some libertarian or Georgia's coming on and being like Being like everyone needs their own individual plot of land and I'm like shut the fuck up It's like shut up. Do you just want to be depressed for your entire life?

The what the freaking Wild West, the the pioneer days, they were not happy. They sucked. Being the homesteader sucked. It's like these people have like a weird dream of homesteading, but also have like this weird dream of hyper, personal reliance to the point where it's like, this is just projection. This is like projection of your own like inability to make social or personal connections with anyone and your inability to see that other people exist. And it makes me want to grab someone like Ayn Rand and just shake her till she snaps. I mean, I would bring on Rand back to life just to kill her again, but that's beside the point.

Because it's just like, it's like this is the problem. The problem is you're caring only about yourself. Like if, I don't know, if any field of philosophy that is somehow entrenched itself in American politics so deeply as to be considered like legitimately dangerous its objectiveism. Yeah, like because that it's that's like hey, you know how nihilism is fucking terrible. What if we just double down on that? That's what it is. It doesn't ever say that. It doesn't ever try to be that.

But that's what it is. Like, Ayn Rand was just a nihilistic piece of shit. And her response was just like, embrace it. Yeah. Like, if out of any of the... It's really funny. It's like people will be like, Nechis and nihilists, I'm like, no, Ayn Rand is closer to being a pure goddamn nihilist who just thinks that caring about anything doesn't fucking matter unless it's about you. Yeah, that caring about anything is weakness. It's like, it's like, it weakens you

and the person you're helping. It's like, calm down, Krea. Jesus Christ. Yeah, or she's like, you didn't need to help that person. I mean, we're gonna have to talk about objectiveism when we talk about Krea. Yeah, like, it didn't need to help that person. I mean, we're gonna have to talk about objectiveism when we talk about Krea. Yeah. Like, it's kind of her thing. She's kind of like shitty iron, iron, ironed,

a little bit. Well, you can see, I hate not ironing. You can see sort of, you can see Evelyn struggling with the same thing because as alpha-wamond warns her, when she first starts to jump, you're going to be tempted to stay in those other realities. We're stuff's better.

And Evelyn is. She's tempted to go stay where she's a martial art expert slash movie star. Where she is a Bruce Lee. Like she is tempted to stay there. And that's where an objectivist would tell her to stay. Like from that from the Anran perspective, that's what you should do. Go to that universe where you're a super rich, successful movie star. Clearly, that's the best one, right? So why why not go there so the whole struggle is Evelyn learning as part of the struggle anyway is Evelyn learning that that doesn't actually solve the problem because Joe Boo is still out there and obviously Joe Boo is like a you know what I call like an avatar

of the of the of the problem like that that's one thing you have to remember is that jobu isn't causing the problems. Jobu is like an avatar of the problems. And even by the end of it, she's lost control of the bagel. Yeah. And so that's Evelyn has to learn though that like the solution isn't well, I'll just go where things are good and fuck everyone else. The meaning to be had is via the relationships she has with the people in the world she lives in, the world she comes from, with weak, weird waymen and even being honest with her dad about joy being gay, right? Like that's the meaning is the relationship she has with these other people in her life

and making those relationships important. Not the like, well, I'm just gonna go where I'm rich and famous and fuck all y'all. And yeah, because I deserve it, because if I'm rich and famous, I'm better. Yeah. That, I mean, that's the thing about the multiverse theory of this that's unilaterally completely subversive.

Is that like, it just means that no one is like naturally better at anything than anybody else. No, it's just whichever choices you've made could like put you in different, uh, put you in different outcomes. So that's another subversion point, everything everywhere. Uh, I mean, this movie does not point objectiveism. I don't really have any major criticisms of this movie to be honest with you. It's a little long. Yeah, that's the only one really. That's, that's like the only thing. I, I had to be wary. I feel like there's like people

in that I know that I'm like, wow, you would like the first half or wow, you would like the second half. You wouldn't like this whole movie. I'm like, I don't know if you'd like this whole movie. It's like I would love to show my mother the second half of this film. But without the first half, it doesn't really

lay down. It's even less sense. Yeah. So it's like, it's like because I feel like the message is something she would appreciate. But like at the same time, I'm like, can you make it through hot dog fingers? Can you make it? Because I don't think everyone in my family has such it's not pedestrian because that's like a really mean word. But my mom wouldn't make it through this movie. It's like it's like a queasy to just confuse and upset. The very vanilla. Yeah, it's been my mom is the same way. I wouldn't give her a movie that's too out there because she just wouldn't, she'd bounce on the only, the only, only one of my, like, there's only one person in my entire family,

even recommended this film to, despite me really enjoying this movie and being like, oh, I want everyone to watch this. I was like only one person in this family would watch this movie. Be okay with this. Like I could recommend it to my sister, but I could just see her be like watching it then being like, ah, that was crazy. Yeah, I mean, my problem would be I mean, and they'd start to watch it. I feel like we most, they'd start to watch it and they wouldn't make it to the end to

get the payoff for this film. They just see weird crazy nonsense and just assume that it's we are crazy nonsense for we are crazy nonsense and sake. So what one of the other major plot points in here, which we haven't really touched on yet, because I don't think it's really quite made our, but us two specifically place to talk about it. Is there is a lot going on just between the relationship of mother and daughter? Yeah, like, our mother and daughter interact with each other, like how they feel about each other. Like, that's clearly like a major... Can you believe that this film initially had plans for a male protagonist?

Yeah, it was Jackie Chan. It was, yeah, it was going to be Jackie Chan. This film was written with Jackie Chan in mind as the lead character. Can we just explain how like astronomically better of a decision it was that they did not do that? It really was. You can still tell retroactively by looking at the way the fight scenes are constructed,

that this was meant for Jackie Chan. Like, the way they fight with like improvised weapons is 100% that school of action movie, right? Like I'm gonna put a ladder over someone, punch them through the hole in the ladder, hit them with a fucking fanny pack. You know what I mean? Like, it's the improvised nature of the fight scenes

is very much the Jackie Chan school of of fight scenes. But they fairly early on made the decision to rewrite it for a female protagonist and make it more mother daughter. And that was an infinitely better choice. It was just absolutely better for many many many many many reasons that I would just prefer to not that jagged in at this movie. Yeah. There are also a lot of themes of this movie about like the identity as being like Asian American, which of course I can't really speak to. But it's also one of the overriding themes of the movie about like identity and interactions with your family

who's more old school, that sort of stuff. Obviously, I wanna acknowledge that they're there, but I'm just not in a place to say anything about that. Yeah, no, that's not, that's not something I can do. You know what I can talk about? Nileism. Yeah, but I'd say that's got, that's got all of us under its pale,

not pale shit. It's deepening shadow. It's incredibly deepening shadow. This movie did resonate with me quite a bit on that level because I, you could probably tell from most talking so far that I'm very much of the idea that meaning in life is simply the things you decide to give meaning to. That's my personal view. Obviously other people

can disagree with me. That's fine. You might even disagree with me, Ketho. But I mean, I don't disagree with you necessarily. But for me, it's like, I don't, there are obviously there are some things, you know, I'm obviously like there are some things I believe do have some inherent value. I'm not entirely a nihilist. Like there are things that I do believe are just inherently good things or have inherent value. But I think that on a general day to day basis, the way you keep yourself positive and moving forward and like continuing to exist in the reality which we find ourselves,

is by finding things around you that you personally find meaningful. And I do agree with the movie that a lot of those things are interactions with other people in your community. All of us are just at risk of becoming Jobu Tupaki. Just that's just the ultimate doom, and I think that's the thing that makes this movie land so hard with so many people,

is they just, they agree with Jobo Tupaki, but they don't want to agree with Jobo Tupaki, because no one wants to agree with that. But you kind of do sometimes. But you do. It's like, so, and the film doesn't say, Jobo's wrong. It doesn't say that her core assumption, necessarily.

Well, because she and Evelyn have the same core assumption at the end. They do. It's like they're both forced to see the same worldview because they're both. Well, Evelyn realizes that the only way to ever defeat Jobu is by seeing what Jobu sees. And so she does.

And she's like, she literally says, you're right. It doesn't matter. Yeah, like that's the, the, the third climax of this film. There's the one. There's the one actual criticism. The, well, also, man, I was really thrown off by the pacing because it's broken into everything, really throw it off by the pacing because it's broken into everything, everywhere, and all at once. And everything and everywhere are both like two hours or like an hour long. And all at once is like 20 minutes. I mean, that's, that's, that's, that's a, that's still pretty classic like a story arc pacing. Where, where if you think about it, it's like act one is like an hour, 45 minutes, act two is another hour.

Yeah, well, act two is usually the longest and then act three is like the closing action after the climax. It's like, let me just finish up. So, I mean, obviously, I don't think that the arc of this film follows those that neatly, but it does shadow them a little bit. So, yeah, the first two are going to be really long, and then the third one's just going to be like this little tiny blip. It's going to blaze past you in a second.

What everyone decides to get long sort of. Kind of. Yeah. Well, they've, yeah. I just think of the scene where they're just having that conversation in subtitles as rocks. Oh, God, the rock scenes are so good. Yeah, they're really good.

They're really good. That is one of the beautiful tricks they do in their sort of insane, data-est multiverse stuff is knowing generally, obviously I could say it's a bit long, but sort of knowing when to like to pull back for a second and take a breath and that's what those rock scenes are. So when you're like, when it's sort of frenetically jumping from like, IRS building fight scene to hot dog fingers, you know, to like all this other stuff, it's like cutting between all of them. And suddenly it's just like, huh?

Rock scene. It's just silent. Complete silence, subtitles. And the subtitles are well written because they read exactly like those characters talk. Yeah, it's literally just their dialogue. It's not even like it's just actual dialogue, but written. That's just a really good tip. Just in general, that's a great scene as an example. Just throw it on this out there if anyone wants, if anyone ever wants to write any fiction or screenplays. Great example. It's just a great example as how you should be able to just read difference in these characters. Yeah. It's like if you can't like come up with a scene and you write a line and then you write another line by a different person and you can't tell

them apart. Figure you should. Like if you have to put so and so write a line and then you write another line by a different person and you can't tell them apart. Figured you should. Like if you have to put so and so said, so and so said after every line because otherwise you couldn't tell the lines apart then your characters don't have enough characteristic difference. And that scene, despite being essentially just a philosophical polemic for about four minutes. Yeah. It's pretty long that

that's the first one, the first time you see it. Yeah. And then that comes back with the Google Eyes and it's funny. Well, they're chasing each other like across the cliff. They've Google Eyes and stuff. But again, I love it for as like it from a movie, like a storytelling movie making perspective, the way it like puts a breath between all the frenetic stuff. Like you said, from a writing perspective, it's great because you can read the lines

and you know which rock is who, simply by the dialogue. You know what I mean, even without names. Like you know who's who, you know what who's talking. That's a kind of a pet peeve of mine when reading dialogue. Is if you have like two Two characters in conversation. You shouldn't have to put he said or she said

At the end of every line like which character is saying which because you should be able to tell them apart when they're alternating more or less like you should be able to tell them apart Personal pet peeve of mine not that I have any room to talk about professional writing or anything, but You're right that scenes a great example of it Also, I made a quick detour to look up what Jovutu Paki means. It means nothing. It's just words. It's just gibberish. Oh, yeah, yeah Which is perfect Apparently the the Daniels are like yet. No, it doesn't.

You just made it up. It's great. But like the fact that like Joe Boose sees everything, well, that's it kind of goes into like, the mother daughter thing, we're like an alpha, Evelyn made Joy jump too many times. And eventually it broke her.

So she's experiencing all all she was actually experiencing every reality all at the same time. That's a miracle crazy. So it's from others fall in the first. Is that like a is that like a weird thing about how. I don't know. Older generation didn't do anything. or generations you didn't do anything. I don't know. Forcing younger people to be in like, well, I think that also is probably speaking a little bit to the sort of life I remember correctly.

There's a trend from when we were younger, there was like tiger parents and like the way a lot of sort of Asian-Americans, the relationship they have with their parents. That's probably more of the Asian-American-like. Like forcing them to succeed by saying like, you need to do more, you need to try harder, you need to do more, you need to try harder. But then like when she makes the more the revelations obviously when she makes the everything bagel, isn't that she's trying to

destroy reality. She's trying to kill her destroy herself. So she doesn't have to experience this anymore. Like that's, it sounds simple when I say it, but I think if you're just watching the movie, you might not, you know, might not necessarily get it if you're sort of passively watching. She doesn't want to destroy the world. And by the world, I mean, you know, all reality or whatever. Yeah, she just doesn't, she just doesn't want to have to experience it anymore, because it's overwhelming. It's too much. It's too much to experience all at once, but none of it means anything. So she just doesn't want to do it. And I think a lot of us can probably relate to that. And that's, and that's really kind of disturbing when you

think about it that we can relate to that because that's just like almost like pure pure suicidality like just um like yeah I mean I mean I'd not have stretched to you know but I'm sure we can find it between the two of us let alone all the people all the friends we have or people we know from the internet or whatever the idea that reality when faced with uh know, what I call like a cascading series of cataclysms and, you know, isolation and atomization and all these other things that we have to experience and juggle all at the same time, it becomes overwhelming to the point where the only way feel like the only way out of it is to not experience it anymore. That's really depressing.

It's not great. No, it's really not. And I think that's why you said some people will struggle with this movie, specifically if they're paying attention. If you make it past like the craziness and the weirdness and you are paying attention, you can struggle with this movie because like you said earlier,

you listen to Jobu and you're like, she's right. But you don't wanna think she's right because you realize the implication. Yeah, like it's not. As it's always sunny would say, because of the implication. Like, it's bad.

And I, however, I think this movie at the end does at least attempt to posit a hopeful message in that you can defeat the existential nihilism by embracing the meaning of the relationships you have with the people around you, be it your family or your friends, or the lady at the IRS office was a bunch of plug-ons on her desk. Jesus, that apparently you could have settled, you could have settled down with in a nice alternate life. With some weird fingers.

I mean, what's really disturbing about, the not disturbing, kind of beautiful about the hot dog fingers thing is it's just humanizing the, the Jamie Lee Curtis' character. A villain. Yeah, it's forcing Evelyn to see her as a person. There's a part of me in another universe that would be perfectly happy with her. That's also an important like, yeah, with Deidre. That's like also a thing about, I think a very

interesting statement on queerness. Wait a minute, because like in the universe, we are experiencing the story and thought is where I made aware Evelyn is straight. She's had a row. And that's probably the case. Because it's probably the case because she's uncomfortable telling her father that her daughter is gay. But in an alternate universe, she's perfectly fine. And what's funny is the way they present that is they're presenting it. If you think about the way that the universe presents choices, presents multiverse, it's

presenting it as a choice. Which kind of, yeah. Kind of, yeah, well, it's presenting it as a consequence of life decisions. Yeah, I don't want to be, I don't want to go into, I don't think it's trying to say the like, it's your choice to be gay. Yeah, it's not, it's not, it's not trying to say that at all.

But I don't know, because I know that saying that sort of thing ruffles feathers on, on our own side of the, the, that there could be scenarios in which you are queer and which in some of which you aren't. Well, yeah, but it, you know, it's like the whole point from our perspective shouldn't be that. Shouldn't be that it matters whether or not this is like inborn or a choice. It's like it does a choice. It's good, it's fine. I don't, again, for me personally, I don't, doesn't matter

to me. And that's, if it's a choice of the case, it's really interesting that that's essentially positive that way by having your big a in one reality and not in another. Yeah, yeah, essentially, essentially, and not presenting it as a bad thing. No, it just is, it's just a different. So it's like the third, it's like the third, you's like the third, you know, like least weird thing about that reality. It's funny. It's like that reality is so weird

that I feel like someone who's like weirded a little out a little bit by like lesbians is like would be completely ignoring that. Because you're too busy worried about them playing piano with their feet Yeah, or or too busy pre-occupied play with the fact that there's like ketchup and mustard involved in this somehow It's so good. Where's that coming from? Is that just in their fingers? Don't worry about it, baby Side note Fucking Randy Newman was the voice of Racka Cooney. Of course. Hell yeah. Uh, which they did partly because he, he, he, saying one of the songs in Ratatouille. So. That's just a funny little Pixar jab. Yeah, they're just like we're're gonna get him to be Rackakuni.

Rackakuni. See that, I just thought that was hilarious. At first you get really sad too, because he gets like carted off and you're like, you're like, what are you gonna do? What have you done? And then like to try to chase him and then she almost, they almost don't get to him.

It's fucked up. Yeah I'm also got upset because most of the loves raccoons. It's as you should there. They're nice little To me, they're sort of what I call sort of like on the cat spectrum. They're like weird little bandits on the cat spectrum. Yeah, they're They're more crazy than cats. Yeah, I mean, I've seen on Twitter People make like the little it's like a circular chart like in the middle of the cat I'm like one direction is a raccoon another direction is like a fox and another direction is like a possum You know where they're all sort of connected out of out of all four of those the possum has to be the most chill it is 100% a fox is basically a dog cat.

Yeah, I've heard it described before as cat software and dog hardware, where it's like a cat personality and a dog body is kind of as a fox. A raccoon is just if a cat could like, I don't mean it this way, but like if a cat were smarter and more devious. I mean, you're right though, because cats aren't actually that smart. They just think they're smart.

Yeah. I say they're entirely self-absorbed with how smart they are without realizing that they are very dumb. Yeah. I mean, the one on the bed over here next to me ran like ran into a door like yesterday like head first So like raccoons are very much more on like the little like He he he snickering evil like little spectrum and they have thumbs their little goblins They're they're like if you mix the cat with a goblin

but Everything ever all wants it's really really good. Yeah, go watch it. I mean, you shouldn't listen to this if you haven't watched it. It's on, I mean, the only way to watch it right now, I mean, Audrey couldn't totally sail them high seas, but it's on Amazon Prime, I think. Yeah. But for those for like, you know, our patrons, if you, you shouldn't be listening to this, if you haven't seen it, like, you know our show, we, we got like our whole show doesn't spoil our

warnings. We just go for the one we're review podcast, we're reviewing things, you have to have seen it, like, you can't review it without spoiling it, it's impossible. It's, it just is. But I think it's about it. Yeah, watch it again. But I need to end it there because it is I need to go to bed because I have to wake up very early. Thank you for being patrons. You guys are bother because you guys are great. Also, congratulations, I mean, the first people that you hear me with my mic problems fixed. So I don't sound like shit. Hey, now we both have good mics.

Yeah, actually, can I get this? Who know? Maybe. We'll be professional one day. Thank you all for listening and see you later. Bye.