Swords, Sorcery, and Socialism - The Light Fantastic

Episode Date: August 16, 2022

Through popular demand we're back in Pratchett land! It's the 2nd Discworld novel, and our first sequel. More intricately constructed nonsense, luggage high jinks, and why wizards are so murderous.patreon.com/swordsandsocialismFollow the show @SwordsNSocPodEmail us at [e-mail]: @Himbo_AnarchistKetho: @StupidPuma69 patreon.com/swordsandsocialismEmail: [e-mail] The Show: @SwordsNSocPodAsha: @Herbo_AnarchistKetho: @MusicalPuma69

So welcome here today. Yeah, I mean, I that would that would unironically probably get us more listens. Open the recording, but open the recording by just going. Yeah, just what we talk about books. We could just talk about books, but do ASMR. ASMR podcast. We are going to be listen. You like just doing like an ASMR mukbang podcast.

Hey, we could do that. We could monetize it. We would never have to work a day. I can't record that because it bothers me. I'm one of those people that the ASMR voice makes my skin crawl. I hate it. I'm in a bad way. I'm like, I... Man, some people make a living off of just selling their feet picks.

Look, I've said many times. If I can make a living off like only fans, I would do that shit in a heartbeat. bro bro What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck?

What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck?

What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? Howdy, we are back and we are here with a sequel. So my is this the first sequel we've done? I

Believe so. This is the first time we've done a sequel. Well, we're doing a sequel. We are doing the light fantastic the sequel To the color of magic in the second book of the disc world series by Sir Terry Pratchett. Now we have done this, we've done this uh more or less, I'm gonna call it by de facto popular demand because everyone really apparently liked our Color of Magic episode. You have made it our most listened to episode by far. I mean I really like our Color of Magic episode. I don't remember much of it, because I recorded it, we recorded it right about the time some bad things were happening in my personal life. So I don't really remember the recording very well. That was like, I don't know, like two weeks before my dad died, I think. Oh, yeah. So I don't remember much of that recording in every aspect, just like reading the books books I'm not gonna go back and listen to what I said before

Yeah, I don't want to take my unadulterated opinions now with things thoughts. I had six months ago I don't know sometimes sometimes I go back it'll just do some stuff and I'm like I hear myself talking and I'm like, hey This guy I get what this guy said and then I'm like, oh wait It's me See I would go back and listen to myself and'm like, oh wait, it's me. See, I would go back and listen to myself and be like, fuck, what are you saying? What does that even mean? I'm like, wow, I found someone I totally agree with and then I'm like, wait a second. God damn it. See, I'm much more like, this guy's a moron. Doesn't he think out any of his points? And I'm like, wait, no, of course he doesn't. It's me.

So yeah, we read the light fantastic, my Terry Pratchett. It is, let's do, let's do the plot first. So the plot is in short, we pick up with our friends Rinsewind and Two Flower from the last book, as they were plummeting off the edge of the world, until they're suddenly not, because the fabric of reality requires Rinsewin to be alive to avert the apocalypse. So they just literally revert, they just like change reality to save Rinsewin's life, the remaining seven spells in the Octavo, save his life because they have to. They then go on, he in two-flower do the what I would call now a typical sort of series of mishaps and adventures. People are trying to capture them. They escape through dumb luck.

Sure, buffoonery. They run into some friends, which we'll talk about later who help them a little bit sometimes. Eventually they go on. Rinse Wind realizes that the spell he said stuck in his head is necessary to saving the world from some sort of big starry apocalypse. There's like an apocalyptic cult, which I definitely, we need to talk about the star people. We see more of the leaders of the wizards and some other stuff. And eventually, at the end, Rincewin saves the day, saves the world. And then two flowers goes home. They have this weird parting. We're like two bros who have been like hate friends for like a year now. like two bros who have been like hate friends for like a year now. Yeah. What don't know what to do when they say goodbye to each other,

which I think is actually a pretty solid observation from Mr. Pratchett. Well, I mean, it's, it's as, it's as, uh, Renswind points out when they first meet Cohen and he's like, who's the city? Do you, do you know this guy? And he's like, yeah, you know, we kind of have like a hate hate relationship. Yeah, but then when they've played a time for two-flower to leave, Brin's one's still like sad about it. We'll get into it. Oh, yeah, that's basically the story. There's some, you know, stuff that happens along the way. I has a difference to color of magic. Number one, there are no chapter breaks anywhere. Which I find to be difficult for me.

Kethos ADHD brain does not have the ability to find a stopping place without someone saying, please stop. Yeah, like there's a hard harder for your brain to know where to like take a break when it doesn't be like, this is the end of the chapter Listen to the audiobook that it's a little weird wind chime thing between paragraph breaks And I was just like oh, I guess we're moving on now Because sometimes they were really long as sometimes it was like a paragraph And then they do another brainy actual like physical book. It's it's just like line breaks

There's like two spaces and then the next yeah it's just like line breaks. There's like two spaces and then the next. Yeah. The other big difference from the color of magic is it's not nearly as like cleanly what I want to call like episodical. Is that a word? I think episodic.

Episodic? Like the first one. Like the color of magic is very much like first, they went to the tomb of the, you know, the unnamable horror thing and they beat it and then it cuts. And then we have the incident with the troll on the road and then it cuts. And then we, you know what I mean,

it's very, then we have the thing with the dragon spiral peak and cuts for extremely delineated segments. Yeah, segments in that. Where the light fantastic is very much one continuous plot and story all the way through like sure they go through like situations, but none of it's so nearly like clean cut and separated as the ones in the color of magic. The other big style difference is that the color of magic very much was like every sort of scenario or set piece.

You could pinpoint exactly who or like which author or what style, Pratchett was like satirizing. It was very much like this one is this person. This one is this person. You don't get that with a light fantastic. It's much more of a sort of just a general skewering of fantasy and hero narratives. Yeah, he goes from pulling specific parodies to essentially having it relying, I wanted to say more on one-liners, but they kind of are. Quips, puns, like, ironic humor, very much the like, you think this is going to happen, but it isn't, which I still, there are still little moments where you're like,

oh, he's parodying something directly like the gingerbread house at the beginning. Well, I mean, that's not even like a parody, that's just like a direct poll from, yeah, I see. I think the more direct parody is the fact that the ancient barbarian they run into is named Cohen, which is a very, very thinly veiled,

this is called Conan. It's just geriatric conversion of Conan, the barbarian. Just Conan with no teeth and arthritis. But that's like the only, like, of Conan in the Barbarian. Just Conan with no teeth and arthritis. But that's like the only what like, having Conan there is really to me the only like, this is a direct skewer of another like book of genre. It's much more like, like you said, more rely on like,

wrong pulls and quips and like punch lines and silliness, then it is on like a direct parody of any kind. Yeah, and we also still have everyone's favorite character, the luggage, who's just as important, if not more important in this story, than it was in the first book. He eats a lot more people in this book than he did in the first one.

I think it's implied the luggage eats a bunch of people like on that pirate boat or whatever in the first one. Yeah, in the first one, I guess there's there's that. But this one, it's more like what I'm all call it like on screen. Yeah, there's a lot of on screen luggage kills. He's like, he's killed death ratio. Yeah, his killed death ratio is absurdly high. Yeah, the, the, the, he's KD. The luggage has a crazy KD.

Um, an infinite one, you would say, because it can't die. Yeah, so it just keeps, like, even when it gets the, it's, it's funny, even how there are certain moments. And these are the moments when I think his humor is it's as is at its best is when he's not even like making a direct joke it's almost like an implied joke where like it's really just the setup and then what happens and there is no punchline that said it's just kind of a thing that happens where like the the wizard the lead wizard what's his name tries to kill him the main villain a Trimon tries to kill him and then immediately pretty much the next thing that happens is he dies because

a piece of luggage uh eats him or falls on him oh no so the original yeah the original lead wizard that shoots that arrow that's supposed to kill him and it accidentally hits the luggage instead of him instead of rinse wind. Then because they accelerate the broom at precisely the right moment. So it's like coming out and they just hit the gas immediately and it just slips right faster. And hits the look. Yeah, so yeah, that one was really funny because at the same time that wizard is like just easily deflecting multiple assassination attempts from his underling. Yeah, like he's just like hmm deflecting assassination attempts like no other and he's like about to be like watch this young man You can do nothing and then just gets obliterated by the luggage being pulled to him by the spell instead of by the luggage being pulled to him by the spell instead of Rintwins. The luggage just comes, it's implied, comes rocketing from the sky through the roof,

and I assume turns his skull into paste. Yeah, and it's just sitting there open, and he can see like linens, and he's like, that's the most terrifying thing ever seen. The underling is like the scariest thing he's ever seen is this luggage just sitting there showing clean laundry. Yeah, that's good. I appreciated that.

As I wanna say, as always, I'm assuming as gonna continue to be the case with Pratchett, the writing is good. And I don't mean that like of course writing is good. Like we all know he's a good author. But I mean like the dialogue is good, and I don't mean that, of course writing is good. We all know he's a good author. But I mean, the dialogue is snappy, it's to the point that writing is clean, the scriptures are nice, it's pleasant to read. Regardless of the content, it is pleasant to read.

And even for a comedy, a setting built for comedy, the setting is just like the last one, surprisingly well fleshed out for something as bizarre and ridiculous. Like he follows, he comes up with his initial like, this is the way magic works as a direct like, ha ha, early D&D fancy and magic nonsense. And then is like, I'm going to take this to its logical extreme. Like he doesn't contradict his own world building. Even when he even when he bases some parts of his world building on the most absurd, like nonsense specifically for a joke, but he'll like build it and he'll take it to its logical extreme and be like, this is see. Yeah, it'll be like, this is how trees are.

Now you'll think that's very stupid, and it is. But the result's in happening is all these other things. So it's sort of like, he engages, like, he lets the world be magical and weird. But then part of the fun is like just saying, sure, this is the way it is. But the knock on effects for that sort of thing, being that way would be X, Y, and Z. Yeah, it's like, he even does it like on a bit by bit basis. It's like a whole the first long, I think like longer joke is at the very beginning him talking about he has a essentially a whole page explaining

how it was a still night and like going through it and explaining as to how like that's actually not true This is a thing to untrue and it turns out there's like a thing in an inkmore pack about Olaf Olaf quimbee the second having made like metaphorical language like illegal Yeah, metaphorical languages illegal so then for like a running joke throughout the book he'll Say something metaphorical, like the sunlight poured across the like rain. But not actually like rain, because that

would be an accurate. It's actually more like a chef to beams of lights or a face, this face launched a thousand ships, but I actually have to prove to you the bills of lading to show that those ships were actually launched. Quimby was eventually killed by a disgrrepancy poet during an experiment conducted in the palace grounds to prove the disputed accuracy of the proverb, the pen is mightier than the sword. And in his memory it was amended to include the phrase, only if the sword is very small and the pen is very sharp.

I don't know. I think I'm starting to appreciate his world building more and more, the more I read, where I feel like, I don't know, this is, this is some wacky nonsense that is somehow coherent. It's well put together, wacky nonsense, right? Like it's, it's, it's, it's silly, but it's still incredibly well-constructed and consistently constructed. Like you said, it's obviously he works backwards. He thinks of what he wants a thing to be and then just works backwards to figure out how which way the world would have to be set up

in order for that to be true. Yeah, and then just is like, I'm just gonna make this, I'm gonna take this to its logical conclusion. I Yeah, like you I also significantly Appreciate more the world building now in the second book that I did in the first one because it is more fleshed out It's more I hate the phrase but more like you know lived, lived in or whatever. Like it makes more, it makes more sense.

Various militou. Various militou. Which I mean, anyone's listening to this podcast long. And if you know that, like, that's kind of what I'm about, it's like a thing that really like, I appreciate. But it's, you know, it's punchy. It's quick. Even I feel, generally I feel like everything moves fairly quickly.

You know, you don't dwell on anything for too long. That kind of would take away from the comedy. So, you know, it's very like... Yeah, a lot of the scenes don't last more than a couple pages. 10 or 20 pages at most. Yeah, it's very like snappy. Like, he keeps saying... The gingerbread house, they're only in for a few pages.

The druid circle, they there only in for a few pages the Druid circle there only in for like maybe 10 pages the the big computer made out of rocks it's like stonehenge but it's a computer that very poorly predicts sunrise sunset and other astrological events well I think it says it was accurate until the the the magic shift that realigned reality happened Yeah, and everyone was like and the line about how it's like it just sounds like a bunch of software guys arguing with each other It's like no, it's not a compatibility problem. It's like oh, it's not this. It's the universe that's wrong Yeah, watch I mean that is again one of the things he does more of in this book than like direct parody is like the druids are not a parody of a other of another genre.

It's a parody of tech guys. Like it's a parody of programmers specifically. They're just a bunch of software engineers. That's what they are. Yeah, there's just a bunch of software engineers who yeah, clearly their program can't be wrong. It's the universe that's wrong. Which brings me one of the first things I want to talk about that I noticed off the bat and keyed on a lot is how wizards are set up. So we know generally how magic works from the previous book, right?

But this one we learn a lot more about how there's what eight or however many like there's eight of course there's eights the number. Like schools of magic essentially or like organizations that are all headed by a lead wizard. But you learn throughout the book like throughout the story that essentially you become head wizard by basically murdering your way up the chain. Yeah, it's really brutal. It's like super like, and another game would be like an assassin's guild type thing where like you only become the head wizard by killing the wizards ahead of you. And so in order to become an old and venerable wizard, like the thing you have to be the best at is outsmarting other wizards. And I felt like that's actually some, it's an interesting

choice to make wizards that way. When you'd often, again, like I said, in a different video game, you'd see that. You'd see that as being like rogues, like sassons, thieves guilds. Yeah. And here they're just like, no, it's wizards. And I think that's actually a really insightful, like, decision because it relates more to like the wielding of power because the wizards are clearly the most powerful people on the disc,

despite the fact that they don't always use it or whatever, right? Like they have the capacity, they wield a lot of power. And well, it's again, Pratchett taking his world to, it's like, you know, it's logical conclusion. If the wizards are the most powerful people on the disk, generally, so the heads of these wizarding orders are going to be the most powerful wizards. Well, what happens to the kind of people that live with live and work within these types of institutions?

They're backstabbing and power hungry. Yeah, I mean, it's combined with, I think he even mentions it himself with the fact that being a wizard leads to you having an unnaturally long life. So it's like, it's like they're gonna get backstabby because people just don't die normally. Yeah, the old people really do. and a naturally long life. So it's like, they're gonna get backstabby because people just don't die normally.

Yeah, the old people really do. Like they take too freaking long to just die naturally. So no one can just expect that to happen. So they just have to keep killing each other or else leadership will never change because they live for hundreds of years. Yeah, I thought there's just a really insightful like decision because it, as a critique,

you know, we would make about power structure generally, as if you have these hierarchies of power, influence and authority. Of course, the people within those structures are going to end up being maniacal psychopaths, who are just like backstabbed each other at a heartbeat because that's the draw of the power of the position. Of course, whatever the hell his name was, Triman was trying to kill his boss the whole time. He wants to be in charge.

It's, let's see, only way to do it. Yeah, the only way he can do it. Every time you see him, because you look from his perspective, those first few chapters more than you do, any of the other wizards, and he like, like everything he's doing, even when he goes to the library first, he's sneaking around, listening to their meetings,

you know, he's doing all this stuff, specifically so he can take over. And, try man specifically, when I was listening to his character like you know Eyes character description, but like specifically when Pratchett has other describes how other people feel About Trimon and like the things he wants the first thing that popped into my head was the banality of evil That was the phrase I kept thinking when I was thinking about Triman because it gets more explicit about, it's very explicit during that final showdown, that the kind of evil that Triman is, unlike, say, other wizards who just are mad with power and like being in control for,

you know, what I want wanna call like, you know, crazy rich person reasons, like they just wanna live in deconent weird towers. Or like, he doesn't wanna be in control the way a king does. He wants to be in control in a way that he must order the universe to his liking, and he's not killing people for pleasure or power or or any other reason. People are dying simply because they're in his way.

Yeah, I mean, it goes into great detail about that the first time that he steps up as the leader like when they all get together and I mean it's a pretty funny scene in general. I mean, that's every scene in the middle. I don't know why I even have to mention that. But essentially, when he's first introduced, and I'm going to take a quick peek here to find it. But it's like the scene where all the old wizards are first being introduced to like modern meeting minutes. Right. He like pulls out an itinerary.

And it's like, this is what we're going to be talking about today. It's funny that like essentially the most evil person in the book is presented is just like an office guy. You know, you just like being real organized. He just likes excess. But yeah, on the one hand, it's like he's just an office guy. But the same time again, that keeps me bringing back to the, he's like Patrick Bate. Yeah. It's very much the like, I want things orderly, I want them efficient. And anyone that gets in the way of an orderly and efficient world just gets dies because

they're simply in the way. And in that whole scene, they spend a lot of time explaining how all the old people feel about him. And they're all like, well, he's not particularly wise. I'm like, well, I mean, he's not, you know, and they're just thinking about it's like, what about him is like so unnerving. Like Hannah Arendt would have written a,

was like writing about this guy. Like, well, they say that what's unnerving about him is that he's behind his eyes, he's just dead. It's blank. It's not hatred burning in his eyes. It's not desire burning in his eyes. It's nothing. And that's more terrifying.

And he is a lot more efficient than all the old guys. Of course he is. Oh yeah, the old guys are like, man, what happened to his, efficient than all the old guys. Of course he is. Oh yeah, the old guys are like, man, what happened to us? What happened to the old guy's chair? And he's like, oh, I burned it. It's like, it was an very powerful magical artifact. It was a useless piece of junk.

Like I burned it. Charmin also represents sort of, again, in his efficiency, this sort of like, detachment from ceremony, from like tradition and I very much. Well, he's part of the young wizard. Well, he was in the same class as Rinsewood. He was like Rinsewood's classmate, but like it's like, I think this is also a Pratchett sort of making a statement about how he feels about people that come along and like want to throw out sort of kitschy

and possibly useless tradition, simply for the expedience you see of efficiency when sometimes that kitschy nonsense is fun to have around simply because it's kitschy nonsense. My favorite way he described it was like, I think the first time he described it, where he was like, instead of having to use all these skulls and bones and whatever, it's like the new wizards have figured out how to do it with three pieces of random wood and a drop of mouse blood.

But it's like, I don't know, it does kind of lose some of the cool magiciness of it. To just have it be this calculated. Again, I think that's what Pratch is getting at, though. It's the removal of maybe this is me trying to bring it back to a thing I've been banging on about for a while, which is that it's the removal of the mystique. It's the removal of the mystery. It's the removal of, well, the magic, right? Like it's, we talked about it in previous sense about the disenchantment of the world. Tryman represents doing wizarding in the most disenchanted way. He's only doing wizarding

because it's the best way to be in charge. He's not doing wizarding because he has a love of doing, even says he doesn't even like doing magic that much. He's doing it simply as an avenue to be in control. So it's a disenchantment of a world that is inherently enchanted. Yeah, this is a, this is the little passage I was looking for that kind of explains it really nicely. And I think like shows Pratchett's point about why Trimon is as evil as he is. And he says, he wasn't good or evil or cruel or extreme in any way, but one, which was that he had elevated grainess to the status of a fine art and cultivated a mind that was as bleak and pitiless and logical as the slopes of hell. It's just the gray wastes, it's just perfectly ordered and logical,

but bleak and nothing, devoid of substance. Pratchett very much is in favor of like, well he's not in favor, I don't want to say in favor of bad things, but like he's like, if you want to have a bad guy, at least have your bad guy be like flamboyant or like, you know, crazy or like, you know, eccentric, like be evil for the joy of being evil and not because it's the most efficient way to be. Yeah. Yeah. He's even like that because because beforehand, the guy like, Galdor or whatever his name was, he essentially was the classic sort of villain where he was more like like just kooky. And would like go around yelling at people in his slippers. Yeah, they said he's got like this weird green liquid bubbling in tubes around his room to make

it seem crazy, but it's literally just like it's like cornstarch water and food coloring. Does it because it looks cool and it seems intimidating. His chair with like the different. Does it, cause it looks cool. And it seems intimidating. His chair with like the different feet on it. It's not magical at all. But he likes it because it's kitschy. Yeah. He's got like cow skulls on the walls and like. And like try and hate it all because it's not efficient.

It's not orderly. And so like, it's not organized. Even though this book is, you know, theoretically about Rinswind and Tooflower, I think there's a lot more interesting things being said about power structures and people's personalities in the nature of evil when you just look at the wizards instead. And even when you think about what happens to Trimon at the end, in his quest for power or whatever, inevitably mutating himself into something.

Groot. In his succumbing to the, I'd say what some other writers like Tolkien would refer to as sort of the prime mover of the fall, which is pride. Mm-hmm. Because he thought he could hold all those bells in the set. He would earnestly believe he could hold all eight spells in the Octavo in his mind and sort of master reality. And instead, of course, he himself is mastered by some sort of unnamable evil from the hell dimension that uses the release of the Octavo spells as a portal into his mind. I do want to I do want to point out that I feel like the dungeon's

like the dungeon dimension. Like I feel like that's that's that's that could be in a really good old classic D&D adventure. And I would not bad an eye. I can imagine the old 1980s fantasy art depicting that. And being like, okay, our next module in AD&D is going to be adventure to the dungeon dimension and it's going to be like some stupid amount of fun house dungeons that absolutely slaughter your point.

It can be adventures in the dungeon dimension and it's going to be just a series of kill houses. Yeah, like to really don't probe every square of the floor with a stick in advance, you're going to be hit with a saver die mechanic instantly. Yeah. Instantly. It's just like a tomb of annihilation or tombahorz. Tombahorz.

Two more horrors. There we go. Everyone mixes it up with annihilation because of Sarah Axen. Yeah. So the original tombahorz, which Gary Guygax admitted directly said that he built to kill off his high level players because they had gotten too strong. So he designed a dungeon specifically to kill them. But the way, like Pratchett describes it is like, it does remind me of how like D&D cosmology

works because it's a dimension that's just sort of like, it's around us all the time, but separated from us by the veil of reality. And so the demons, whatever there's magic around, are always there sort of creeping around the edges, waiting for a softening of the barrier to break through. Yeah. And I think it's a little poetic what he does where it talks about how, oh, there's a hole into the dungeon dimension

that could be ripped into the dungeon dimension. And it's like, where's the hole? And it's like, Triman is the hole. Like his eyes essentially are the holes. Yeah, the fun way they're like, oh, it's not just going to rip open a portal that demons are gonna and demons and Eldratures are gonna fly out from that's old school They're just going to possess the mind of the most powerful person on the disc. Yeah, which is trying it

Again, I think I think that like that whole sort of diversion into the mind the nature of evil is sort of diversion into the mind, the nature of evil is significantly more interesting than almost anything that happens to Rinsewind in the entire story. Uh, yeah, yeah, actually. Um, what I'm, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes, this is because I mean, Rinsewind's whole thing is he actually kind of does in this book. You're sort of, uh, Campbell heroes journey, where he like goes from continue of being Rincewind to like realizing that he does have power, does have a

like destiny and does have agency. And him sort of like taking his fate into his own hands. What's talking around, I do find very interesting, but like, it's just, it is a, it is a departure from the previous book and really the first half of this book where he's still just running away from everything all the time. And then he's just like, oh, wait, shit, I have to do things now. I will. Like he, it takes him, it takes him like a book and a half to finally like accept the call to adventure. And like when he finally does, he's very like, all right, then let's go. And very single-minded about it. And it never and funny enough ends up getting to the end

of the book and going, hey, now that spells out of my head, maybe I can go be a wizard. Well, he like wakes up early in the morning and like gets to like directing people. He's confident. He's like forward. He's like in charge. It's a guys man. I fucking I save the world. Yeah, he's in charge of stuff. Like he's very different character by the end. I think it's time now for though for me to bring out my hottest projectatchett takes, I think, which is that I,

I, and again, this is just my own personal opinions. I mean, if you guys want to be mad at me on Twitter, by all means, please. But a personal opinion is I think this story and Pratchett's writing is at its best when he's not trying to do quips all the time. When he's not doing setup joke setup joke setup joke. My favorite bit of this book by far and maybe one of my two favorite bits of his writing in total is the the very end fight between like Rinsewind and

Triman. Like even like from when Rinsewind is like going up the tower or are going with the old wizards talking to two flower and getting up there and then eventually having like a literally Fistacuff's fight with some Eldritch Mont monstrosity and just kind of winning. Like through that whole fight up through, up through where like, you know, Cohen and Beth and come up and like they solve the magic, right? That's probably like one of my two favorite bits of Pratchett's writing. We've read so far my other favorite being the whole conversation. He has with the water show at the edge of the world in the first book. And I sort of realized that those are the sections where it's, he's not just doing, and he wrote the broom, which of course is ridiculous, because we both all know that

understand it wouldn't work that way in real life. But here it does, because here's different. Like he's not doing that like, here's the thing, also here's why that thing is silly. He's just letting the story be, and I like it a lot better personally. I don't like it quippy. I mean, I think that's valid. This sort of quippy comedic style isn't really for everybody.

I have Josh Weed and PTSD. Oh, well that, I don't think this is necessarily that, but it's not, but, but, his jokes are way funnier than Josh Weedons, but, but you, that's, I'm being a little hyperbolic, but that's kind of how I feel about it. If you allow me to get like, you know, actually kind of deep for a moment about it, we said earlier that what I'm a big fan of is vericinitude. I am on board with sort of Tolkien's idea that for a fantasy story to work, you need that suspension of disbelief.

You need to believe the world is real. But, or what I find somewhat objectionable or less pleasant about Pratchett's work is that in the, in the exercise of being funny, it feels like he's constantly just cutting the legs out from under his own world. Like he'll tell you that this is the way things are. And instead of just being like, yeah, this is the way the world is in this world I've created. The fact that he always goes out of his way to explain to you why it works that way. And sort of tell you yes this is silly but this is how it is. To me is like a, and I'm not saying he was doing it, but when I see

other work do it, it feels like a cop out from trusting your created world to stand on its own two feet. Where you don't trust the reader to believe the world is real. So you have to justify its existence. So you can't just have hydrophobic wizards. You have to justify why they are that way. Now, I'm not saying this is right or wrong, this is how I feel about it, where he's, every time introduces like away the world is.

He goes out of his way to tell you all how it got that way and how it affects the world. And like, you know, really, it's not that big a deal if you think about it. Like, it just kind of does the other thing and it has other effects. And so I'm just being like, yeah, it is this way, deal with it.

And to me, it feels like he's sort of, like not trusting his sub-created world to stand on its own, which I don't personally like. I mean, I think I agree to an extent. There's some, my favorite jokes of his are the ones that are kind of self-evident, like the ones of the druids arguing with each other. Because he doesn't have to point out the joke. You know, it's just funny on its own, where these guys are just arguing a bunch of computer engineers

over some nonsense. Or anything like that, the box dropping on, golder. But then my least favorite jokes are ones of the ones from just like the very beginning, like those trees talking. Of course, the trees went to make out in their own religion, of course. Yeah, that sort of joke right there is one that doesn't land for me. But I think it's for us maybe a slightly different reason in that. Sometimes it feels like he's going out of his way to tell a joke when one isn't necessary there.

Yeah. Where he's like, oh, it's been too long since I said something funny. I got to do something funny here and he'll like derail you for a minute, take you somewhere else and talk to you about what happens to this place 70 years from now and sometimes it works, sometimes it's fine, like sometimes it's like a, oh, and they were never the same again, like a little quip and then sometimes it's like that tree religion one that goes on for like half a page and you're like, I mean, to me, the whole bit of the trees constantly answering people for a while just kind of got old. Like the trees just answering people and everyone ignoring them or pretending they aren't talking. Just like, I don't. Yeah. Well, what I mean is, what I'm trying to think of like a good example. It's like,

what are my favorite, my personal favorite bit of humor in the whole story is when after the fight with Triman, Rinswind is like, you know, like, like Frodo hanging off the edge of the broken stairs, right? And two flowers just laying there holding onto him, trying to keep him from falling. Like the way they'd becker, I found, Oh yeah, where he's like, he's like, but you're terrified of heights and he's like, it's not the heights I'm worried about right now, it's the depths I'm concerned with.

Like the beckering, that way, like in that scenario, I quite like, and my favorite bit of all is when Cohen comes up the stairs and is like, yeah, can I help you guys out somehow? And you're getting it from two flowers perspective and two flowers like, I know Rinse Wind is about to say some snarky shit. Rinse Wind is about to say, yeah, I've got to itch on my back. Could you get it for me?

And before he has a chance, two flower like jumps in is like, it's on my back. Could you get it for me? And before he has a chance, two flower like, like jumps in is like, actually, could you grab Rinswind for me? He's about to fall. And then he can like feel Rinswind, like tense and relax before he, like, gets the snarky comment out. I really like that. To me, that's funny. It's also like an insightful character moment.

Like two flower kind of becomes a-dimensional character for a little bit. Yeah, where he actually is like responding to the world around him instead of just like stubbornly being rose tinted. Yeah, two-flower actually has a personality besides oblivious for like a paragraph while he and Rinswind interact. And like you know that he actually knows Rinswind well enough to know what he's going to say and like how to prevent it from happening He like that. I really enjoy because it's like a humorous moment

But in the middle of like a genuine thing going on and I guess that's more to the heart of my critique is that I like my fantasy to have some like well-known slightly heart string pulley moments in it. And Pratch just has a propensity to have them, but then like pull the punch on it by finishing it off with a joke.

Like we're gonna have something impactful. Yeah, but not really, cause there's gonna be a joke at the end of it. And I prefer my story to actually like hit sometimes. And if you finish, if every hit is just a faint because you're gonna back off at the last second, it just doesn't ride with me very well. Like I need it to actually mean something.

And if you're always, if there's always a pun at the end of it, then to me you're just like kind of taking the piss and not trusting your audience to have an emotional reaction to the story. That one scene that you were talking about with Two Flower, essentially, that was almost essentially like Two Flower having a rinse-wind moment

because rinse-wind has been doing that for two books now. Where every time two flower opens his mouth trying to run damage control and then just getting more and more bad at it as he gets more and more fed up with it. But like it goes back to like even earlier in the book with the druids. You've got you've got rinse wind thinking he's like, Oh no, they're going to kill this person and he's like whatever. And two flowers freaking out about it and Rinse win is kind of joking, you know, he's like whatever it's religion who cares and tries to talk two flower down into not being like in a tizzy and he's like and and it's like in this moment

You know Rinse win remembers that he that two flower doesn't really just be wearing rose tinted glasses, but he's seeing rose tinted glasses through a rose tinted mind. Yeah. And so he's like, oh, crap, something's he's going to do something stupid. And he like knows that it's going to happen before it does. And it's like reflected again at the end when two flower has his own moment where he's like, And it's like reflected again at the end when two flower has his own moment where he's like, oh no, Rinse what's gonna say something dumb Yeah, well and like To me, it's like a genuine character moment because like two flower Know's enough about Rinse win because like Rinse win is like that's it. I can't hold on anymore I'm gonna let go but two flower knows how Rinse when things, so he goes, you know what, fine, do it, kill yourself.

Do it, you're weak, you always give up, go ahead, give up, run away. See if I care. And rinse when it's like, wait a minute, second, I don't always run away. No. And just by like, you know, knowing enough about him, he knows like basically two flower knows how to like reverse psychology judo, throw him into like, you

know, not giving up and dying. But again, to me, I like that moment because it is emotionally impactful. There's no pulled punches there. It's very much like these are just two friends taking care of each other at the end of the world. You know what I mean? Or just hopefully about to be averted end of the world. And that is what I like. I've learned that is what I like in a story.

I don't like a story with no stakes and no like emotional pull. And I think that's why it usually takes me until the final third of any of these Pratchett books I've read. Because by the final third Pratchett actually has to have the story like get somewhere. And so like you actually have to have like stakes come real. Because of their luck, any situation they get involved in in like the first two thirds of the book you know they're gonna get out of somehow. There's no guessing that it's like they've got lady luck on their side they know what's happening. Yeah like in this instance the freaking spells are like bro you can't die.

You can't die literally like the spells of creation are like dude you don't get to die. We won't let you. It's like we got to be uttered so we can have the great attune become noticeably female and lay some eggs. Hatch some eggs yeah. Yeah, hatch some eggs. Hatch some eggs for little baby turtles with their own baby discs. That's cute. It is. But again, that's, I'd say that is what I've found to be, specifically, I get elucidated now after a second book. My sort of the one issue I have with Pratchett is that I don't, I myself can't really get invested until there are, at least I feel there are appreciable stakes for the characters. And that's when I find actually engaged with the story more.

So that is, we can be done with major critiques now unless you have some, but that's not mine. Is that I understand that people like him funny and punchy and quippy and stuff, but it's just, I needed a little more like what I for lack of a better phrase self-serious. Like I need my I like my fantasy a little more self-serious. I mean I already voiced my own critiques being mostly the sort of almost cutaway gags. They go too long. They go too long being my only like real moments of,

eh, but a lot of the jokes from Pratchett, I think are so clever that that's almost part of the reason I'm here reading it. It's like where I'm there for, oh what weird nonsense am I gonna get next? Where I, the Druids being probably my number one here where I'm like out of nowhere. You find out a little bit more of his world building and it turns out Druids are just nature, computer, software engineers. And like the first one, like that one sections your favorite joke.

Mine is the stupid freaking, do you know what culture shock is? And he's like, it's like, do you know the one thing you need to know about culture shock? Don't give it to the guy driving the giant boulder through the sky. Essentially. And it's what happens when people spend 500 years trying to get a stone circle to work properly. And then someone comes up with a little book with a page for every day and little chatty bit saying things

like, now is a good time to plant broad beans. And early to rise, early to bed makes a man healthy, wealthy, and dead, which is that's a funny bit already. And you know what the most important thing to remember about Culture Shock? And there's like this weird, long extended pause before it is. And it's like, what?

And he goes, don't give it to a man flying a thousand tonne rock. It's like, don't suggest to me, while I'm flying this giant stone, that an almond-ac is a better way to track time. Figure out the plan. Crops. Those those are most usually my favorite moments and I'm I find myself eventually getting into a space of mind after I start

because it takes me a minute. Where I'm excited to know almost purely from a meta sense what he's got next as an idea for his world. But you're right, as like an actual functional narrative, it doesn't really become interesting or genuine until the ends of his books. Like the wizard cutaway is our Yeah, they're surprisingly genuine there And they're still full of good jokes death

Kind of almost salivating over the one guy and then the other one Yes, he makes his little like trap box and he's like I'm never gonna get me in here And then he says like well, he never really thought about putting in air holes. And death is like right next to him in the box. Like, sorry, gay. Pretty cozy in here, isn't it? Yeah, it's like pretty cozy in here. And I can't help but think of death's voices being

because in the movie, it's Christopher Lee. Oh. So I can't help but imagine this incredibly snarky dude, just somehow being voiced by Christopher Lee where I'm like Such a strange combo for the audiobook just like in the first one what they do for death is they make him sound Like he's talking in an echo we room kind of far away from you So it's like a talking across a room that echoes where he's like So it's sort of like a talking across a room that echoes where he's like

It death still deals the show this show every single time he's Generally on the page just just just usually where he's like guys a metaparty like can you not do this right now? Yeah, when they're like and they're like I met a party. What's up? And they're like buy buy with hero by oh, duh, duh. And he's like, yeah, yeah, get it, whatever. Just, I wanna get back to this party. And he's like, I'm super excited for Midnight. And they're like, what's going on? And he's like, that's when they think I'm gonna take my mask off.

I think it's like a costume party or some non-sense. Yeah. And he's like, surprise, I've been deaf the whole time. Yeah, like get, every time death shows up, like the cutaway were like, or the little bit where Rinswind has to go into death domain. Yeah. To rescue Rinswind, who was busy teaching death, famine, plague, and war had to play bridge. Yeah. It's just a very dense, it's a very two flower situation to end up in.

Yeah, the most two-flower ship. For some reason, that one doesn't particularly like, I don't find that one tedious. That one I think is interesting because, and maybe again, because there's real stakes. And there's also a genuine character moment too. Yeah, I was like, well, I'm just teaching him how to play bridge. It's like, they've got lots of time. Your death is like, give me the rules

again. I need to get this one right. Oh, yeah, killed by deaths, deaths adopted daughter Isabel. Yeah. In the book, it's Isabel with a why. It is. It's Y S A B E L. Isabel. I'm not gonna look ahead, I'm assuming just by Quicklands, the Wikipedia, it looks like she might, excuse me, come back again or something in later books, I'm not gonna look. Well, that's fun. When he goes, he has to go to death

and do a little Greek tragedy thing and then make the whole joke about not looking back, you know, referencing, what's the fucking Greek story that do to play the music to get his wife's spirit out of Haydn's, looks back to, and looks back to, or fierce, or fierce in your fantasy. Like, he makes a pun on that where he's, like, he's already so many rescuing their lovers soul, but they always, like, they, they fucking up by looking back. And he's like he's like why wouldn't they look back?

It's probably not pretty sight or something you know what I mean like it's like a throwaway but it's a reference like Orpheus and Eurotasy which is fun to me. Last thing I want to talk about thank you could you know some analysis of people going on here is the the star cult. Yeah. The this at all I call the star cult, I guess. So everyone thinks the world's going to end because it kind of feels like it is. Yeah, a giant flaming ball in the sky. Getting bigger and bigger. Everything's getting warmer.

Yeah, magic is failing. That's our two thing. And so Pratchett correctly identifies that the group that would profit the most off of this sort of scenario is essentially like a fascist death cult. Yeah, a fascist religious death cult. Yeah, like a religious death cult. Like is gonna, is who's going to gain the most power in any sort of apocalyptic scenario? Because they're gonna, you know, say, oh, here's how you can stave it off. Go kill people we don't like. Yeah, I mean, it's just a direct, you know, corollary to like the fact that, you know, when things get bad, the

people that gain power are those who seem to provide easy answers. And that's how people end up falling for, you know, fascism in the early 20th century to deal with economic crises or things like that is that old, well, who's got the answer? Well, this profit who says that magic caused all this. And if we only cleanse ourselves of magic and magical things, ritually cleanse our, not even ritually, physically cleanse the disc of magic and magic people will prove ourselves wholly enough to be rescued and saved.

It's just clearly fascist rhetoric. There's a, I don't know, something about it reminded me, it's not a one to one core layer, but it reminded me of can't cool for Lieberwitz, a little bit with people essentially going around killing anyone who could read. Oh, yeah, like the first, like the first age after the day in the deluge, yeah. Yeah. Obviously, that post-apocalyptic. Well, this is pre-apocalyptic, but similar thought. I don't know. It just, it came into my mind when I was reading it. And yeah, it's very much that like we aren't, this is happening to us because we aren't and the only way to save ourselves is to become pure

and to become pure means to do genocide. And pretty much, yeah. I mean, you can see similar things happening in history in like, in Europe happening to Jews at multiple points in history, specifically, it happened, you know happened in some places during the plague, where people thought they had to like, the plague came from there. Yeah, they get rid of them. They get rid of the Jews out of their town in order to get rid of the plague.

It's an unfortunate thing that repeats throughout history. And I think it's not something that Pratchett had to include in this story, but I feel like it's a pretty insightful inclusion. Like again, it's him thinking through in practical terms, the practical outcome of the impractical nonsense that he has occurring on. Yeah. So the impractical nonsense is that the turtle that the world is on the back of is swimming directly at a star. A big star, because like if you consider the fact that in his own setting, the sun is actually pretty small. And like, it just orbits the disc. Yeah, because it's above, yeah, it just flings around the disc.

He even goes through extremely complex lengths to explain to you how the light hits the disc because it's not curved. Yeah, like, and how it actually pour the because of the magic and because of how the angles the light comes across the disc differently. Yeah, it's like it's slowly fizzles across and like hits things as it goes because magic slows the light down as it moves across, which is the only thing that keeps one side of the disc from not experiencing morning at the same time as the other side. It's how to have morning like across time. Again, it's him like saying, here's the improbable nonsense, but here's like the sort of the

realistic outcome of that sort of thing. And doing that leads into this religious genocide cult because he's like, well, what's the silly nonsense? The apparent end of the world via turtle swimming at a star. So what would the outcome of that be? Well, likely what would happen is you'd have false prophets saying that you need to do genocide in order to save the world because that's how people are. And so to me, that's like an insightful inclusion in the story, because people aren't great.

Yeah, it turns out sometimes that, yeah, people aren't always super cool. They're sometimes super uncool, particularly when they're scared for their lives. Or any other aspect of their life, even if it's not lives or livelihoods. That's yeah, reminder, this was written when in the 80s. This was 1986.

Oh boy, it was I believe that you're was still. Oh, she's at an 86. So she sure. So Mr Terry Pratchett might know what he's talking about might understand what's going on so I know because we mentioned it if a friend of our newer listeners you haven't been around that long even though the audio is probably not as good you should go back and listen to our early episode about canicle for Libbaweights it's a really good book. And it's overlooked. That episode is overlooked.

Yeah, I think it's not that many people have read it. Yeah. I recommend any of our newer listeners. Read Canicle for Leibowitz. It's not long. It's not difficult. It's very good. It's got very easy chapter markings.

In case that's a big issue for you, like it wasn't read with this book. It's broken up into three separate sections, like three separate sort of stories across time. You might not always agree with the stance the author takes on things, but it's still a very interesting story. And then you can go back and listen to our episode, early episodes about it, because it was really good. It was a good discussion. That was back before we knew how to even be brief at all though. So the discussion takes two episodes. We're a little better now.

I mean, it was worth it. The only other thing going on in this story is there are companions that we haven't touched yet, who is Cohen, which you can just read Cohen as ancient Conan. And Bethan, Bethan, who was supposed to be the virgin sacrifice for the Druid gods, who's actually annoyed that she didn't get sacrificed because she like spent years not going out and having sex just so she could be the sacrifice. Yes, so she could end up drinking wine with the moon goddess or whatever.

Yeah, she thought she was going to go to like paradise with the moon goddess. That's what she did in fuck Even that says she didn't go out for years. It's kind of weird because she's 17 So I don't want to know how many years she was thought she was gonna be out fucking Cuz she's only 17 in the story Thanks, mr. Pratchett She then falls in love with and marries Cohen, who is 87. I feel I don't know if he was intending there

to be some other jokes there or if that's just weird. Like, I mean, I mean, Klein to give Mr. Pratchett the benefit of the doubt. Like maybe there's a specific story or trope from early, like, you know, from like Conan's type novels that he's like doing a parody of here, but I don't know them. And instead it just comes off like an 87 year old

is gonna marry a 17 year old. And it's just kind of weird, man. Not gonna lie. Again, I'm not sure if I should be giving him benefit of the doubt, but I'm inclined to give Mr. Pratch at the benefit of the doubt. From his reputation, you want to give him the benefit of the doubt? About the flip side, he is English.

Yeah. Again, no one accused me of applying new standards, old shit. This was written in the 80s. Shout up. This isn't that old. This isn't some Heinle thing from the 50s or some nonsense. This is. It was also shitty. And a way.

Yeah, but that's just objectively shitty from a shitty person. Like if it's not for like a greater purpose or just like a weird misstep in Pratchett's lineup, I'm going to be a little disappointed because it's Pratchett's lineup, I'm gonna be a little disappointed because, you know, it's Pratchett. Again, with everything else in his books, it's usually like a parody of something or a play on some stereotype or some hero. He rarely does anything unintentionally in terms of some sort of parody or commentary or purpose. Exactly. So that's why I'm hoping this is,

but because I don't know all of the things he's referencing, it just kind of feels like he's having an act of generic and Mary a virgin teenager. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I don't really know. It's weird. It's just it's weird. It's weird. Don't don't do that, man. Yeah, I'm notice a direct Kurt Vonnegut reference. Because you don't use these three words specifically right next to each other as someone who's written a lot of science fiction and fantasy as Mr. Pratchett has in a circumstance somewhat like this without it being a direct reference. You don't say so it goes at the end of a sentence. Oh, yeah.

And it be after saying something kind of tragic, where it's like the jeweler's talking about how he's dwarfish and in the star. Oh, the star people come and run out. The star people who are essentially Nazis, but more religious are, so this dwarfish person who is essentially a standard for kind of persecuted individual

within the Nazi regime would be like, which again, is Kurt Vonnegut's speciality is talking about World War II. It's like the star people believe that the star will not destroy the disc if we turn aside from magic. They're probably gonna be me up a bit. So it goes. And you're like,

I think, I think you're just directly referencing Slotterhouse 5. But I mean, that's the sort of thing. That's what makes me want to give him the benefit of the down the last thing is just because it's because you're still, everything else is. even just a line like so it goes is a hidden but once you think about it noticeable reference to Kurt Vonnegut so I'm inclined to think that most things in book are referencing something yeah even if I don't know what that thing is I think I assume it is it's just I don't know what it is so it just feels weird. But no, he definitely has lots of little like throwaway references to other people, to other authors, other things. Just this book does them a lot more subtly than the color of magic did.

I think that's sort of one of the main differences in the writing is the color of magic is like, here's what I'm parodying. Yes, it's very, and that's why it's I think done in sections. It's because it's very clearly. I think parodying different things in each section very specifically. This one is much more parodying the personalities, tropes. Just tropes, fantasy tropes, writ large. The hero's journey. As opposed to specific hero's journeys. This is the hero's journey. Lowercase. This is the hero's journey. Lowercase as opposed to the hero's journey. Uppercase.

One last thing I just thought of while we've been saying you're talking about it again, a reference to another earlier episode. The wizards in this world, another thing I was reminded of was when we talked about the wizards from all other magic users from the Witcher, they spend most of their time doing politicking and backstabbing as opposed to actually doing magic because their orders are so inherently hierarchical that you actually spend most of your time worrying about what each other is doing and each other for positions of authority than like using your magic to help anybody. And usually they're also in those things presented as villains and bad people. I mean, usually for powerful hungry reasons, Allah like Vilgophorts or something.

Tell me Vilgophorts isn't a wholly different character than Trimon. Like, they're not exactly the same? Yeah, different motivations, but fundamentally. Fundamentally kind of the same person. Like, or maybe not Trimiman, maybe more like Triman's previous boss. Yeah, Golder, Golder, he's a bit more like Golder because Vilgofort is nice and

flamboyant, you know, yeah, Vilgofort is very flamboyant. So yeah, maybe not, maybe not Triman, but you know, like, you can definitely see Vilgofort being the head of one of these mage schools, wizard schools on the disc. So that was just an interesting connection. I drew was that the way the witchers, magic users are set up is very similar in that, like they're heavy on the politicking, the backstabbing and the murdering,

and for, you know, position for like political power and that sort of thing, which I thought was an interesting sort of connection. Yes, there's a throwaway about how they won't let women do magic on the disc because the wizards are inherently scared that women will just be better at it than they are. It's like reality. Yeah, they're just like we don't let women be learned magic for these other reasons also because they're just scared that the women will be much better than they are. And they're probably right. Yeah, probably. But I feel like there's probably a conversation we could have a little bit about even in his satire, the role of women within

this world because there really aren't any. Yeah, and then when they show up, they're like, aside from Bethan. Bethan. Who's very, oh no, he does have the one female sell sword. Oh, yeah, she shows up later with the trolls and stuff. Yeah, she shows up like kind in the middle with her mercenary band, who then just get defeated by the sun. Whoops.

Rinse wind. Whoops whoops big sun big troll yeah like we you know grandfather grandfather troll or whatever but like you know he chose to make her very like you know a very practical mercenary like she doesn't drink in corows she doesn't do this or that she's you know makes her money and is saving it for the future and That sort of thing But I'd have to think way more about that one and it's kind of late my brain doesn't work that well So we're just gonna say maybe there's something about gender roles. We could discuss but maybe yeah I think I think we'd have to consume more to find out if this is a running gag or

A like a running theme or it's just like he's parodying a lot of old fantasy which doesn't have a lot of women in it in positive roles. So maybe he just gets better at it as he goes on. I mean to be fair, there's like 20 freaking 30,000 more books of this. More books in this series. So I'm sure that he's addressed it at some point. By the turn of the 21st century, you probably had more women doing things. Yeah, because I looked it up and what's her name does show up again. Bethan. No, yeah, Yee, Yee. Yee is a bell. Yee is a bell. Yee is a bell. She actually shows up in the not the next book, but the one after. The next book is equal rights and then it's more. She's in more.

Any final thoughts on the light fantastic? Pretty funny, I think if you like the first book, you'll like this one too. It's true. Has a similar feel to the first one in that the first three are almost just kind of straight up comedy. So the first three quarters is almost straight up comedy. The last quarter is we're actually all with the emotion is kind of packed in all at once. Well written, this, this, I was just looking at the other day and that's why

I'm remembering this the dungeon the D&D for the D&D should dungeon master's guide as a list of books that are something you could read as inspiration. His world building is pretty fantastic. So his world building is spectacular. So if anyone was like, man, I want to read about a world that's ridiculous, but still uncannily, internally consistent, as ridiculous as it is. That's this world. That's this world. It's very.

Some wouldn't, some wouldn't involve powerful, but capricious gods, Highly magical, but also highly regimented. Like crazy shit can happen, but there's explanations as to why and how it affects the rest of the world. If you're an aspiring DM, wanna do some home brew. Pratchets and amazingly helpful to read. This would be an amazingly helpful thing for coming up with like, do you wanna play computer druid? Yeah, do you want to play a druid that focuses on like

calculations or something intelligence druid? Or like even just like are you doing a home-per-world and you're looking for ideas for like You know like how factions could be set up. Yeah, or like if physics physics of your world are different or even just like How do I build an encounter because every little story within Pratchett's stories? All the little things that happened to them to me are just D&D encounters Like okay, you're lost in the woods now what while I'm gonna look for signs or clues. Oh woods now what while I'm gonna look for signs or clues. Oh, I found a gnome. Yeah, I found a gnome. What can I talk to him? Well, you can because you speak throughout language, but you can't. Well, what'd you learn? Well, you learned that there is shelter nearby, but it might be haunted. Okay,

let's go check. Okay, let's go check it out. Okay, well, by being here, you've set off an alarm that the party's hunting you now nowhere to find you. You know what I mean? Like all of the situations that Rinse Wind and Toothler find themselves in, to me would be with some with obviously varying levels of effort, but generally not too much effort just translate it into like an encounter, you know what I mean? And it's honestly be good for encounter building because rarely do just rinse wind solve his encounters with violence? Because his mask is coward. I was gonna be like, like, like, win would be incredibly happy with rinse winds level of would be incredibly happy with Prince Wind's level of non-violence. Non-violence.

And in a way, this book especially also has that sort of, the problem does not go away until he actually turns to face the problem and then suddenly the solution is within it. So it's like he spends his time trying to run away from the spell only for it to end up leading him to where he needs to go But only once he finally decides to turn the fuck around Very very very wizard of earth see yeah And then of course he solves it simply by punching it a bunch. Yeah, so that's that's a little less earth see But you know, it's funny but that also in itself is like a subversion of expectation because Rinswind's been a big baby coward the whole time.

And then you learn that at the end, he wins that fight because Trimon has spent his whole life sitting in a library reading books. Rinswind's probably spent the last like year and a half on the run, continuously striving, fighting, running, surviving. So he's much more prepared for a life or death scrap because he's been doing that for like the last 18 months or whatever. And so when it comes time to just like punching

a tentacle monster in the face, Rinse Wind is inherently more prepared for that sort of thing. Yeah. With my, it just makes me think of the moment where the book is like, you're a survivor, Rince Wind. And he's like, what are you talking about? I've almost died 12 times, just like, I, and he's like, exactly.

Yeah, two flowers like, yeah, he's like, since I've been with you, I've almost been killed. Well, no, it's the, it's the, it's the, it's the spells in his hand. He also has a conversation with two flower where two flower counted how many times Rinse wind almost died Yeah, he gives him a specific number

But because because Rinse wind goes well, how do you know? It's always gonna work out okay? And two flowers like well, you know, I've he's I've almost died so many times and two flowers like yeah this many times But point is you've almost died that many times you And too far I was like, yeah, this many times. But the point is you've almost died that many times. You haven't died yet. Yeah. So clearly to me, all prior experience tells me that you won't die in the future

because everything has worked out good 48 times up till now. Yeah. He's like, I'm not a survivor. I've nearly died 12 times. Yeah. Yeah, nearly nearly like there we go Yeah, you know build some dnd counters off this stuff Not just not just encounters remember guys like if if anyone is worried about their setting being too weird No Now don't worry about it. It's like, come on, people love this stuff.

Like be weird. You're allowed to be weird. Be weird with your home, bro. Let it be silly. Like, let it be silly. Clearly that's a lesson that I need to like remember from time to time is that it can be silly and still be good.

And still be good. It's the, they're still, they're still, can be substance there, even if what you're describing is inherently stupid, stupid. Hello, everyone. This is Darius and Post. Right there at the end of the conversation, Kethos internet went out.

So he didn't get to say goodbye. So I'm here to do our end of the episode announcements. Thank you all for listening to our episode about the light fantastic. If you like what we do here, you can support us on Patreon where we just released an episode about the 2022 movie Everything Everywhere All At Once which is our great movie and we had a good discussion about nihilism. If you want to be able to look ahead to see what's coming up, we have now started pinning to the top of our Twitter profile the list of upcoming episodes. So that way if you want to be able to read ahead and read a book before the discussion on

it comes out, you can head over to our Twitter at sword and sock pod and check that out. I think oh well our next episode isn't a book actually it's our one-year anniversary Q&A episode with a couple special guests. Then coming up we have Jurassic Park by Michael Crighton, the tombs of A to one by Ursula K. Loughwin, and the essay Starship Stormtroopers by Michael Morkock. We have a lot of other exciting things planned, but if you want to check us out, that's all of our socials and everything. Thank you so much for listening, and I'll talk to you later. Goodbye. Bro Are you fucking real man?

Come on you.