Swords, Sorcery, and Socialism - The Lord of the Rings: Hope

Episode Date: April 16, 2023

It's the Asha episode. She goes into detail about what hope is in the works of Tolkien, reads some selected quotes, then gives a talk about how this has shaped her views on radicalism, trans rights, and how to fight for a better future. This one came from the heart folks, we hope you enjoy it.patreon.com/swordsandsocialismEmail: [e-mail] The Show: @SwordsNSocPodAsha: @Herbo_AnarchistKetho: @MusicalPuma69

🎵 Bro. Are you fucking real, man? Come on. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Sword, Sorcery, and Socialism, a podcast about the politics and themes hiding in our genre fiction. As always, I'm Asha, and I'm joined by my co-host, Ketho. How's it going? Howdy. We are back, and it's time for Asha's specialty subject hour. So, is that right? I will be the audience insert. I will engage and contribute to where where necessary.

Hopefully I will ask the questions that the audience is thinking. Yeah. So as everyone could probably tell from the title of the episode, this is an episode about hope from the perspective of J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. hope from the perspective of J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. This is something that has been a very special subject to me for most of my

life. It is something that I still find very impactful to me today. If you aren't fans of Lord of the Rings, I'm sorry. This episode you will not find interesting this is and this is the episode where i say right off the bat i'm sorry michael morecock

my apologies to you and your good and incisive critique about anarchists taking lessons from authors who uh can be reactionary i apologize and i'm now going to take your critique and set it over here to the side and ignore it for like the next hour or so hey listen this isn't this isn't dismissing the thesis statement just because this in essence is you taking away a lesson from Lord of the Rings that is not fascistic in nature. So in a sense, you're doing what Moorcock was asking people to do, which is to, you know, read it critically and not without acknowledging. Honestly, of any piece of work out there, I don't think there's a single piece of work I have applied critique to more than The Lord of the Rings, because I've spent so many years obsessing about it. Look, everyone has their thing that they just know, you know, way about that they care more about this has been my thing so one day i'll be able to rant about the legend

of zelda yeah we'll do a bonus episode where you can tell me all about the legend of zelda and the very very very few politics to be gleaned i just need you i'll actually i'll just need you to explain to me like the timeline of how all those games actually line up what's sad is i could do that i i know you can so today we're talking about hope talking about hope in tolkien generally but more specifically in lord of the rings that's when everyone's more familiar with i will might possibly reference you know like the silmarillion or something but mostly i'm going to try and stick to the main text that i know most people are familiar with and i'll try not to dig too much into the silmarillion but i make no promises yeah hey listen it's it's part of the legendarium. It's important.

Yeah. Um, weirdly what we won't talk about is the Hobbit because the Hobbit is sort of the outlier here because it was the one without like that sort of intentional message written into it because it was originally not connected to the legendarium at all and was essentially mildly retconned into the legendarium afterwards. It was originally just a bedtime story for his kids, so it doesn't really have the overt messaging that he would put into his other stuff. Just be what it is.

It is a lot less big on the big, grand themes. Yeah, and again, that was because it was originally supposed to be just a standalone thing as a story he was inventing for his kids. And then after he wrote it and they were like, can we have more stuff? And he's like, Oh,

this can fit in with this larger work that I've been working on. But that's also why there's such like a, I can talk for a while about how he essentially gently guides the reader into the tone shift. Because if you go from the hobbit to the lord of the rings like the first chapter of lord of the rings reads a lot like the hobbit in terms of like its tone and the action and like that sort of thing and then as the hobbits like leave the shire he literally switches like his tone of antenna of the like narrative itself and so literally as the hobbits leave the safety of the

shire he literally transitions his writing from like the writing style of the hobbit to the writing style of the rest of the legendarium and like he essentially does that on purpose to be like actually this isn't like the hobbit at all by the way they've left the shire and it's scary now. But today we're talking about what I think is the main theme of Lord of the Rings, possibly the second theme, probably the second most important thing of the entire book, which is hope. It is a word that throughout the Lord of the Rings, Tolkien uses the word hope over 500 times, which you can't say for best about any other sort of concept or feeling or anything like that. You know, aside from your filler words, there's nothing else sort of in there like this, like hope is. It is fundamental to the story he was attempting to tell. And you can make the argument,

and it has been made in numerous papers, that that hope for him is also intrinsically linked to his faith, which is sort of the other sort of parallel major theme of the book. I'm not going to focus on that bit though, because I think talking about Tolkien's faith is like a whole other episode. Pretty much. That's its own. That don't need its own month, kind of like C.S. Lewis. Yeah. That's like an episode set aside for his faith and his actual politics, which I think is a whole other thing. I'm going to focus on hope. Now there's a few things that jump off the bat that are pretty surface to me, pretty surface level readings of like hope in the book.

Like obviously even in the movies, they talk about it a lot. Like there's a lot of the pull quotes they use are ones about hope. You know, there's your Gandalf saying that there were when Pippin's talking to him, uh, Gondor, uh,

waiting for the battle to start. And they're talking about Frodo and Sam and Pippin says, is there any hope for them? And Gandalf says, well, there never was much hope. There's only a fool's hope. Or,

you know, they talk about the stars representing you know the hope of the elves and the the hope of men all these sorts of things it is again i can't stress enough how fundamental it is to the entire not like just the world building of the narrative but to like his entire concept of how his characters should be should think and behave and ergo how he recommends people generally think and behave is his concept of hope in the legendarium. There are two kinds of hope. There is,

um, there is true and genuine hope. And there is essentially not false hope, but it's more of like a a temporary i guess kind of hope the difference is that the one hope is that what you would say i put more in passing like oh man i hope my you know i hope my bus shows up on time you know what i mean yeah like that That's technically hope. Like you really hope you're not late for work. Oh boy. Do I really? Yeah. Like, you know what I mean? Like,

ah, you know, I hope this, you know, person I went on a date with really likes me. You know what I mean? Like it's hope, but it's not based on anything significantly deeper than like what would be nice. Yeah. Like wishful thinking. Yeah. It's more along the lines of wishful thinking. And like, this is a thing that would be nice to happen. Right. So there's like that kind of hope he exists, but it's not the kind that he's particularly concerned with or thinks that people should be thinking about. Right. The guy he's talking about is what he calls Estelle, which is sort of like a deeper, more fundamental hope. Now, anyone who's read the books will recognize that Estelle is also literally the elven name of Aragorn.

So which came first? It's well, they were together. That's the whole thing. Aragorn was literally named Hope, like on purpose. Because he was prophesied to be essentially the final hope of the Dunedain

and of men, of Gondor against Sauron. Like that was predicted that he was given that name on purpose. It's, I want to call it nominative determinism, sort of. Like they knew what the big stuff, they kind of knew what his deal was, even when he was a kid, at least Elrond did, which is why he gave him that name.

Well, Elrond, doesn't Elrond himself just have some degree of foresight? Yes. Elrond has a bit of future sight, which is why he, again, why he gave Aragorn this name, because he was essentially gifted through his future sight fairly early on in this child's life. This is going to be his deal. He sort of saw his future and that his future would be the big confrontation with sauron what he couldn't see was how it would end he just could foresee that it was going to occur more or less which then leads you to the the conflict with him obviously not wanting arwen to stay because he thinks aragorn's going to lose so So he can see the future, but still kind of...

That's the thing we're going to talk about because the opposite of hope, well, first off, let me finish. The fundamental hope, this deeper hope, Esthel, is a hope that's not, again, that sort of ephemeral, I hope a good thing happens to me today.

It is a deeper, more fundamental hope that it is the hope for a better world and a better future and hope. It's hope that that can come to pass. For Tolkien, that's a hope that's essentially based on faith, but I don't think it necessarily has to be for someone of our political persuasion.

It is this fundamental hope and the belief that despite how things currently stand and what you see in front of you, that even without the path in front of you looking good in any way, you still believe that something good can happen and that there is a better future ahead of you. Whether you personally are going to see it or not is an entire other question that we're going to get to. But it's the hope for a better future is this more fundamental hope. And that's where you start to talk about Aragorn being named Estelle because it's the fundamental hope that for Middle-earth, there is a better future beyond Sauron. It is the hope that even though the battle ahead of me may be entirely stacked against me and there's a pretty good chance I'm going to die, I still hope that through my effort and the efforts of others, good will prevail in the end or in the future. That is his more fundamental hope. And that's what he is getting his characters to either stick to or give up on throughout the narrative. And you can basically go through each

character and look at the points where they chose to remain hopeful or points where they gave into its opposite, which is despair. I call it its opposite. However, they also, they can't really coexist, but you can be, I think he would say that in ways you can be hopeful with no hope. That is Frodo essentially for a whole lot of the second half of the story, but particularly once they're in Mordor, like crossing the plains of Gorgoroth and like going to the mountain. Frodo has no hope for himself.

He also believes that he's going to fail. He doesn't believe that he can actually even accomplish the quest that he set out to do. But he still does it anyway because he has a deeper hope that it is his believing that it is his, the good and correct thing to do to continue his quest anyway, despite the fact that he kind of doesn't think it's going to work or he thinks he's going to fail. But he hopes that by doing what he believes is right, it'll work out anyway, even if it doesn't work out for him. And that's the message I'm really

going to drill down on here. And the message that I personally have applied for years now, decades now to my own personal politics is that even if I don't see hope for myself personally, it is the belief that through my effort and other people's effort, there can be hope for the world at large, if not for myself in particular. Sorry, you were going to say something. Yeah. I think the idea that it's, at least from Tolkien's perspective, it would be faith that would give hope. I mean, the way the story presents it, it's very interesting because a lot of times the hope is coming from like their, not necessarily faith in some sort of greater being, but their faith in each other, which is a much more mutualistic approach than just, than I feel like I get from what Tolkien probably believed,

which is just more, like none of the characters have faith in Eru Iluvatar, you know what I mean? It's like they're not. Sort of, I mean gandalf does gandalf does that's because he's literally met him yeah it's like literally met god at one point and to be fair even before that he was an angel right he was he was a mayar so like he's he he does and i it that is one of the tricks i don't call it trick but things that tolkien does

pretty successfully i think in lord of the rings is imbuing it with a sense of faith without ever having to have like god be present like they reference the valar in passing and the valar are like a stage down from eru you know what what I mean? It's honestly to a point where I, I don't think most people even know who Eru Iluvatar is. Probably not. If you've just watched the movies or done like a passing thing, you again, you're passingly aware that the Valar exist.

Well, I mean, I even mean in universe. A lot of people probably aren't super conscious of it. You're right. So it's like the valar don't touch middle earth not anymore unless you're the elves yeah so it's like the elves are the hyper religious ones and everybody else is like what the fuck you talking about i know because i mean at least some of the elves like galadriel literally used to live with the valar yeah like

galadriel hung hung out with them in Valinor. She's like met them. But the humans are just like, bro, I got farms to tend. Like, leave me alone. The humans are incredibly sort of a-religious in this world. It's very curious.

So I think you're right. I think you're right that even though I reference it as being hope for Tolkien himself, the author, in the story, you're right. I think you're right that even though I reference it as being hope for Tolkien himself, the author in the story, you're right. It more presents itself in sort of a, a faith in each other, or I would call it like I do politically, honestly, a more general sense that a better world is possible. You know what I mean? They do hope for a better world. They just don't put it in terms of the better world will come via God. Yeah. It's almost like the strength of their own conviction. Yeah, it really is. It's willpower. Maybe just willpower maybe just willpower it's we believe that through our own effort we can create a better world it's it's being like aragorn and having the balls to lop off the mouth of sauron's

head it's it's well or if you stick like textually it's's Aragorn literally after they get the Palantir from Saruman. Oh, you're staring directly into it. Like pick up the Palantir and look Saran in the eye and say, here I am. And I'm coming for you. Essentially. And I will defeat you. In the book, does he he say it does he actually say anything when he picks up the palantir listeners i need you to know for this episode i've broken

my two cardinal rules i have a notes page and i have the physical book in front of me because that's you know how i stand on this um i don't remember if he gives any physical quotes or if he just relates what he did i think he just relates to somebody else what he did and that he revealed himself and, you know, it's our unaware of him. And I know he shows Anduril, uh, the reforged flame of the West to Sauron via the Palantir because he like holds it up. Sauron's like scared of the sword. I'd have to double check if he does specifically say anything or if it's more of just him relating, I looked into it and I struggled with him and I revealed myself and I showed him the sword. You know what I mean? I think it's one of those.

Well, in a sense, that was like, he was pushed into the corner to do that because like Merry, or was pushed into the corner to do that because like mary or was it pippin um like pippin like picked up the palantir like oh sweet and aragorn was like oh no no no no no no no he can't know that there are hobbits here like he cannot and he grabs the damn thing and it's like i'll convince him i have the fucking ring in a day or two i'm gonna show him i exist and i will imply that i have the ring that i have the ring or i'm gonna make him think i do because then he's gonna be thinking about it and not

thinking about the fact that we set like a couple halflings off on their own it's like it's absolute chad behavior there from aragorn his most ballsy move that is the first of like multiple times where aragorn's strategy to help frodo is to simply like yell come at me bro at sauron yeah because the Palantir he does that and it actually forces Sauron to attack Gondor earlier than he had anticipated so he doesn't actually have as many soldiers as he thought he would when he attacks Gondor and then they also do that by essentially marching their armies out to the Moran and out to the Black Gate at the end to like challenge Sauron to a fight at his front door in order to empty all the orcs out of Mordor. So Frodo and Sam can pass.

So two separate times Aragorn was like, what's my strategy here? I'm going to Hail Mary. I'm going to tell Sauron to suck it. But particularly that second instance where they marched their armies like out to the black gate, to the moran and to have another i have another showdown with the vast hordes of mordor and sarin or whatever

that is another example of getting back to my main theme here because they even admit and people probably remember the gimli quote from the movie which is like certainty of death, small chance of success. What are we waiting for? That's like a glib way to put it. But Aragorn points out that they literally cannot win this fight, this battle that they're having at the Black Gate. They cannot win, They cannot win, but they go and fight the battle anyway, because he has hope that doing so will give Frodo and Sam the time and the free clearance they need to accomplish their mission of destroying the ring. But at the point where they march on the Black Gate, they have no idea where Frodo is. They don't even know if he's alive. Yeah, that's the thing. I was about to ask if they had any context or any reason to believe that Frodo was in Mordor.

They know that he made it through up into the pass of Kirith Ungol through Shelob's lair. They know he went that way into Mordor. Because Faramir. Because of Faramir. They know he went that way. Or the way Faramir. Faramir, yeah. The only other context clues they have is the fact that Sauron hasn't like fucking marched his ass out to beat

the shit out of them with his ring like the fact that he hasn't been like I have the ring you all are doomed is there essentially their only other context clue that Frodo hasn't failed yet yeah it's like if he had Sauron would have the ring yeah I was about to say that yeah yeah they were banking on the fact that he they knew he was going that direction and if if he had fallen in shellab's lair or if he had fallen so far in mordor the game would be over yeah like and they would already know yeah they would already know so they're like well he hasn't come out yet. But again, it is the hope. There is nothing, again, aside from a couple of clues, there's nothing to base that hope on. So you'd say that might be foolish.

But that hope is based on a deeper, more fundamental belief that it is the correct and right thing to do and that the way to make a better world for the future is by marching and trying to knock down Sauron's front door. Even if they might die doing it. And that, I can't stress enough, is the fundamental lesson that I take politically from Lord of the Rings. And especially in our current day and age, I take as a trans person from Lord of the Rings, is that there are things that we need to do, even if in the immediate future, there doesn't seem to be much hope for me personally. That there's still things that must be done because they are the right thing to do. And because I myself have a deeper hope that a better world is possible, even if I'm not going to see it. Hey,

Hey, Frodo eventually did see it. Frodo did. Frodo did live to see that better world. And so did Aragorn. So did everyone not named all the main characters, not named Boromir. Who, by the way, by the way, still one of my favorite characters in the entire legendarium.

I sympathize with Boromir a lot, actually. I think people that don't like him don't actually understand what was really happening. Oh, yeah. He comes. I mean, and he regrets it. Oh, yeah. I mean, he literally he literally saves his soul, essentially. I think I think a lot of

people forget i don't know it's like the ring the ring is just that powerful and and literally the only person in the entirety of middle earth who could have done the quest was frodo he is like literally the only one that could have done it like tolkien says so like and even he fails because at the end he can't destroy the ring yeah it's like by the time you get to the end there the compulsion would be so strong no one could intentionally destroy it literally it just could not could not do that could not be done and like what happened to boromir is like people oh, I can't believe he gave in. Literally every single one of us would fail. Yeah.

That test. The ring is designed for everyone to fail that test. Exactly. And that was also a whole other episode we'll get to at some point because the ring is literally a representation of like authority and state power. And the idea that people working for good would seek to wield that in good ends and then end up being corrupted by it hmm that's literally literally today i saw

someone post on twitter a clip from murray bookchin talking about the Lord of the Rings. Oh my goodness. That's really funny because it was about that specifically. It was about the ring being a symbol for power. I mean, it is textually Sauron's will to dominate. Yeah. dominate yeah and also textually what it does is anyone despite whatever their good intentions may be if they seek to wield the weapon of the enemy even in service of good they will end up doing evil in which case you know i have a lot of points to make about cops that you know it wasn't it wasn't murray bookchin it was abdullah oklahom

oppo it was oppo i do enjoy the idea of oppo reading lord of the rings but it's it's so funny he one of the few bits of things he learned about outs that coming in outside of prison was i don't get much news about what's going on out there but i just learned that the last film in the lord of the ring series the return of the king recently won an oscar amazing um the essence of the film apparently was the destruction of the ring that represents power i mean he's using it to kind of criticize uh america no as you should as you should but it's it's it's just funny that i saw that and was like what the so me back here so you can what i was saying before is that you can despair

but still hold hope but not like a not really not a full despair. There's a despair references by Gandalf in the Council of Elrond when one of the various elves that don't matter says, you know, I despair because there's no way we could ever destroy the ring. Like we have no hope of ever getting them out doomed to destroy this thing. I despair, blah, blah, blah for our future.

And Gandalf says to him that despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt. And the way Tolkien sees this is that if you look at the future, at the outcome of these big events, and you despair, outcome of, you know, some of these big events and you despair, you can only despair with certainty because if you go, oh no, we're going to lose. That means you have certainty in your mind that we will lose that. And that to him is sort of the height of hubris that you yourself believe, you know, everything and have that certain knowledge of the future. Cause the file, obviously the end of that quote is even the wise cannot see all ends, no matter what history has shown to us that, and this is one, I know one of other tokens main points that even when things go badly at one point

that does not preclude them going well later and the idea that you can look at you as a flawed human can look at a situation and know for certain what the outcome is going to be he just does not agree with he thinks that is despair to him. It's certainty, certainty of defeat. And throughout the book, they have a constant sort of tug of war between characters within themselves and between each other, either trying to stick with their hope or give in to their despair. If you don't mind, I have a full, a few pull quotes. I'm going to go over here. I'm good with quotes.

I like quotes. Obviously, there's a lot that people that are pretty famous ones, right? Because they were included in the movies and like they're pretty well-known quotes. Some of those all hit. One of them is one of the ones that's more famous because they literally finished the two towers on it. Or no, not finished the two towers on it. It's in Return to the King. It's the little speech that Sam gives. It's a little soliloquy that Sam gives between him and Frodo. Frodo says, I can't do this, Sam. And Sam says, I know. It's all wrong. By rights, we shouldn't even be here, but we are.

It's like in the great stories, Mr. Frodo, the ones that really mattered, full of darkness and danger they were. And sometimes you didn't want to know the end because how could the end be happy? How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad had happened? But in the end, it's only a passing thing, this shadow.

Even darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines, it'll shine out the clearer. And those were the stories that stayed with you, that meant something, even if you were too small to understand why. But I think, Mr. Frodo, I do understand. I know now the folk in those stories had lots of chances of turning back. Only they didn't. They kept going because they were holding on to something. Frodo says, what are we holding on to, Sam? Sam says that there's good in this world, Mr. Frodo, and it's worth fighting for. Again, that's one of the more famous quotes because of the place it holds in the movies and not to be that guy, but like, look at that quote critically, look at it from the lens

of someone like myself, like yourself, like, you know, an anarchist or a trans person. We do live in a world right now that it's full of darkness and danger. And we might, it might be hard for us to look out and go, well, how can we go end up with a good life at this point? But you have to remember, you know, that's the point. Even the darkness will pass and there will be another day. And what are we doing it for?

That there is some good and that it's worth continuing the fight for. That kind of mirrors a pretty famous. Is that a Lewin quote yeah even in the darkness there are stars yeah or there's also a disco elysium quote um from the communists in disco elysium um ironically where where it's like just because the moon is gone should the stars also go out it's a similar quote there's another is gone, should the stars also go out? It's a similar quote. There's another quote.

That's paraphrased, but you know. Yeah, there's a Le Guin quote. That's, yeah, even in the darkness, there are stars. And there's another quote very similar to it, because you know a whole thing about how stars specifically represent hope within Lord of the Rings, because the stars were put there by the Valar. They're literally representations of the hope of elves and men, particularly elves. But that's why you have starlight is like the main thing. It's a whole other thing. But another similar quote, this one actually not a quote, it's just like text from the Lord of the Rings, but it's again,

Sam in Mordor. There, peeping among the cloud rack above the dark, high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart as he looked up out of the forsaken land and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end, the shadow was only a small and passing thing, that there was light and high beauty forever beyond its reach. Listeners should have learned from the beginning of the episode that in this one, I'm going to get, I don't know, hyperbolic, cringy, emotional, whatever word you want to use. I don't care if it's cringed. This is emotionally impactful to me, so I'm going to say it anyway. That idea, that in and of itself, that the shadow is a small and passing thing and that there is light and beauty forever beyond its reach, for me is something like queer joy,

the joy of our lives existing and getting to be the people we are, despite the shadow of looming fascism that we live under in this country, that there is a joy in our lives and our existence that the fascism can never erase. Like it can do tons of horrible things to uncountable numbers of us. But at essence, there is something, a high beauty in our lives and our existences. You can extrapolate this out to the lives of radicals, of anarchists, of anti-capitalists, that there is joy in our lives that is beyond the reach of destruction by the darkness that we have to contend with every day.

And now people can get this message from numerous sources. I'm doing this episode because it is from here, from when I was like 12 years old, from Lord of the Rings, that this first embedded itself into my psyche. That even when shit seems hopeless, there are things there that the evil can't touch. And that's what we kind of have to hold on to, even when everything seems desperately, desperately shitty. There is a quote that, Legolas quotes at one point talking to, I believe he's talking to Aragorn, that is given us essentially being like, I guess, an idiom in Middle Earth or folk wisdom in Middle Earth that oft hope is born when all is forlorn.

The idea that there's actually often more hope when things get more desperate because people are essentially reaching into themselves and finding that hope for a better world that like they're reaching for, that it's when things get the worst that a lot more people actually have to look inside themselves and find this hope so it seems like there's more hope often when things are dark there's before i go to like my final like big comparison between theoden and denethor i want to give two more a couple more little quotes here because this is the quote section. So I'm not good at organizing my podcast. So deal with it. We're off the cuff.

It's good. This is a quote from Haldir in Fellowship of the Ring. The world is indeed full of peril and in it there are many dark places, but still there is much that is fair. And though in all the lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater. And again, if I'm going to relate this directly to why I'm talking about this, why it impacts my life, is that yes, in our world right now, especially if you're, I mean, in many places in the world, but particularly if you're an American right now, which I unfortunately happen to be.

I know many of our listeners happen to not be. So congratulations on that, I suppose, even though you have lots of other things going on in all of your own countries. That there are a lot of dark places in this country right now, and love is mingled with grief. But through that, the love that we can hold for each other within our communities, within the trans community, the queer community, the, you know, leftist community, we can feel that love for each other even greater because we have to, because it stands in contrast to the shit that we are, you know, that we're fighting against. That, you know, you see the solidarity between, you know, when there's some new anti-trans law passed in a state,

you see the solidarity, the mutual aid, the support from different communities of trans people sending each other money to like help people move or like help afford their drugs, stuff like that, that in, you know, a rebellious context, the forest defenders in Atlanta, even though it's incredibly bleak and like, you know, the cops executed somebody that you see the support coming in from across the country. And the love for these people that are doing this action stands out even in sharper contrast because of the darkness that it's set against.

The last one, the last quote at direct quote that I wanted to read goes back to what I was talking about. The fact that, and I'm going to talk about this a lot when I talk more, when I talk about Théoden is that that I it is been burned into me anyway. And it goes into why I don't particularly like the concept of like a revolution. I don't think there is the big R.

I don't think that's a thing. Lowercase R revolutions. That's a thing. Lowercase r revolutions. It's a continuous and ongoing process. Not to get weirdly trotsky about it, but you know what I mean. I don't mean it that way. Permanent revolution.

Yeah. It's that the idea that you will not or might not see the results of the world that you're fighting for. That, you know, you might look at, say, we look at the US right now and say, well, what can I even do about the new anti-trans law in Tennessee? What can I do about the, again, the cop city in Atlanta, right? What can I do about that? What can I do about something in my own state what if i can only do you know donate to a cause here within my own state things like that there's a quote from gandalf i believe from return of the king and they're talking about this like what if we don't have success we can't what if we can't like overthrow sauron. This seems like too much. Gandalf says,

it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the sucker of the years, wherein we are set uprooting evil in the fields that we know so that those who live after may have clean earth to till what weather they shall have is not ours to rule so kind of you know affect what you can because the point in the book is they're saying like well what if we stop sorrow now what if he comes back later somehow and he's like well that's not up to us like that's out of our control that their their weather is not ours to rule we do the best we can with what we're

given you yeah it is up to us to uproot the evil in the fields that we know within our time and our place to do the things that we can do because the best you can hope for is that you are late as he says leaving clean earth or i would say something like laying a good foundation for the people after us to build on. I'm not going to see anarchist utopia in my lifetime. I won't. It's not happening. But I can hope that through things that I do, things that I support, and things I encourage my friends to do, we can help build the foundations for a world that could see the benefits of a more anarchist way of life. I might not see a world where trans people can get all of the support and care that they

deserve. all of the support and care that they deserve. But I can do what I can now to try and build a world where they may get that in the future. But it's important to remember that why I don't like the idea of a big R revolution, that once something like that happens, that doesn't mean you're done. They're going to have their own weather. They are going to have to continue the struggle themselves in the conditions that are set upon them. And I can't worry. It's not worth my time to think, oh God, well, what if what I do now doesn't solve everything for everyone in the future? Because that's not possible. But what I can do is try to create the best environment for the people that come after me to create a better environment for the people

that come after them and that those things can be cyclical and build upon each other. And that is the best you can hope for. And I'm sorry, people, other people may have gotten this message from political theory or from something else. I got this message first at like 13 years old from reading this book. Our audience cannot see me nodding, but I am nodding along. This is good shit. There's another quote actually from the book that I think fits right in here as a quote from Aragorn, because I think at one point they're talking about what if they do something,

but that like they lose, right. And they all get killed or whatever. And I believe it's Aragorn that says deeds will not be less valiant because they are unpraised. Oh yeah. That's a good one. That's good.

The right thing to do is the right thing to do. Whether it gets noticed or remembered or not, it is still the correct thing to do. Good shit. Good shit. That, I can see how that ties in to Tolkien's faith. Because that's a very explicit Christian tenant. Yeah.

At least that's a very explicit thing that Jesus said. Yeah. That you should not go out doing good deeds and seek in search of praise for your good deeds. It's like, it's like just do it and move on. Yeah. Do the right thing because it is the right thing.

So I'll give you a second here. If you would like, if you have any thoughts or any interjections before I go on to sort of my last big spiel. This was quote section, laying out the groundwork section before I talk about my two characters. I'm ready for this. I'm ready for this.

This is the meat, the good stuff. So as I said, a lot of characters have this struggle. Obviously, Frodo has a struggle constantly about maintaining his hope. And he does, even when he doesn't, you know, even when he thinks he's going to die, he still maintains his hope. The character that actually struggles with despair and sticks with hope the easiest. Well, Aragorn does because he's kind of faded too but he also makes the choice like movie aragorn is kind of moody and like unsure of his future book aragorn is a lot more like yeah no i'm the king don't fucking worry about it this is what this is what i need

to do i'm gonna do very self-assured about it yeah book aragorn is much more self-assured movie aragorn has conflict and that's because it's a movie and he needs to. But the character I was thinking of- It can't be perfect. No. Stick to the hope of the best is Sam. Every time Sam has a slight crisis of faith, he's always just like, no, Samwise, that's stupid. I believe in Master Frodo, and I believe in Galadriel and Gandalf

and what we're supposed to be doing and he just like gets right back to it which also is coincidentally why sam is the main hero of lord of the rings because he's the one that struggles the least with like believing that he's doing the right thing all the time like he literally is the main hero Obviously that's one of the basic levels of like trivia is that like sort of Sam wise is the hero of the story. But like Sam struggles the least every time there's like a crisis where he's like, Oh,

what if I do the wrong thing? He's like, he like talks to himself in third person and he's like, I, Oh badger, you Sam wise. Don't question yourself. We're doing the right thing.

And he just like goes and does it. He just says something mean to himself that his dad would have said, calls himself a name, and just gets on with it, which, respect. As I talked about, Gandalf's entire deal is kindling hope. That's his entire essence of being. It's his job. It's literally his job. It's what the Astari were sent to the world to do,

and he's just the only one that managed to do it. He also is aided by the fact that he has one of the three elven rings, Nienna. Not Nienna. That's the name of one of the Valar. It's the one that starts with an N. It's the ring of fire. Is it literally Nenya?

It's Nen- I think it might be Nenya. Nenya. It's the ring of fire it's the and fire which we get because again off those little fire tricks but like fire in this instance is much more symbolic in the fact that gandalf's entire thing is kindling hope that's like literally his entire deal in the movie he says it directly when they light the beacons of Gondor and he literally just says, hope is kindled. That's like the Gandalf,

like, what do you call it? And like, uh, in an essay, it's when they're like, this is my actual, like not mission statement,

but you know what I'm talking about? It's like that, like his entire thesis, his like reason for existing, his reason on Detra is hope is kindled. That's like it. That's his thing. And the ring,

the ring of the fire, the ring of fire helps him do it. That's like, that's it. Like he does a lot of other shit, but he talks all the time. Particularly if you read like leaving the movies as I can read the book, he talks all the time about how his whole thing is just bringing hope to the various peoples of free peoples of middle earth to keep them inspired to fight for

their own future. Cause it's also textual that he cannot win their future for them. He has to encourage hope in them that they can fight for their own future, which I think is also something people of our political persuasion should keep note of. The idea that someone or something can go out and win freedom for everyone is not realistic. It's bogus. People have to fight for their own freedom because if they don't, if their freedom is simply handed to them more than likely what will happen is they will end up in tyranny again because the only way gandalf could win their freedom for them himself would be to take possession of the ring and as we talked about

that would then immediately make him a new tyrant so he and even he's wise enough to notice that and know that yes he is aragorn is faramir famously is faramir is like one of the most impactful i think bits of dialogue in the in the books is faramir talking to frodo when he says he won't take the ring where he says you know i would not take this even if even if i should find it lying by the side of the road and Gondor in ruin and me the only one that could save them. I would not take this thing. Faramir also denies it. Galadriel is smart enough to deny it.

But that leads me to one person who is not smart enough to deny it and his antithesis. We have Denethor, steward of Gondor and Theoden, king of Rohan. Denethor is despair. That is who he is. He stared too long into that dumbass Palantir.

Correct. So that's like staring too deep into Twitter. Kind of. kind of because so gandalf denethor denethor is smart he's very smart he's also a very like intelligent keenly observant person very knowledgeable person and he himself is strong enough that he is not directly, he cannot be brought under control of Sauron via the Palantir the way Saruman was. Saruman was a little bitch and was literally converted, like pulled into the side of evil via Sauron, like talking to him

through the Palantir. Denethor held off better than Saruman did because even in his folly and his despair, Denethor never actually, like, you mean, like, flipped? He never became a servant of the enemy. No. So we do, I want to give, you know,

we'll give him credit for that. But what he did do was he gave in to despair. Now, there's a number of things in his life that would easily lead them to him being despairing. His favorite son is killed. His wife died really young.

His wife, who he apparently loved dearly. That's one thing I'll give both Theoden and Denethor, both big wife guys, because both of them had their wives die fairly young and neither one of them remarried. That's like every freaking character. Yeah, a lot of dead moms. Treebeard. Well, they kind of lost their wives. That's true. They couldn't really replace them if they wanted to.

Yeah. But like, even if you try to... Tolkien himself. The world's biggest wife guy. I think there's an actual quote from C.S. Lewis who calls Tolkien the most married man he's ever known, which, true. 100% true.

But I mean, even if you try to put Lord of the Rings in the context of a vaguely medieval setting, any other king in the real world would have remarried and made more heirs. Both Theron and Denethor, neither one of them do. They're like wife guys

to the end. So Denethor has lost his wife, he loses his favorite son, and he's watched his realm be constantly under attack basically throughout his entire lifetime. What happens is he uses the Palantir and even though he can control it to some degree to see things, other times what he sees is influenced by Sauron. And now Sauron cannot show him lies in the Palantir. They can't do that. But he can show him specifically selected truths to lead Denethor to negative assumptions. So you could assume that Sauron was basically only showing him the worst shit possible. Like, here's all my

soldiers. Oh, look, here's a bunch of dead Gondorians. You know what I mean? Like, he's only showing him the worst outcomes and the worst things that are happening. And Denethor eventually succumbs to despair. And we see it in him in our first meetings with him. And then you watch him, like, rapidly fall off that cliff uh it appears that faramir is dead in the movie that is literal as well as figurative uh yeah true but he is already despairing even we first meet him in the books but he completely goes over the edge when faramir is brought back and presumed dead. He just gives up entirely. He in his mind, the future is certain. Sauron will win. Gondor will fall. They will be destroyed. It is a certainty in his mind. And because of this, he fails at his job of

protecting his people, his city, and his son who has to be saved by Pippin and Gandalf. Well, Baragond. Mostly Baragond. But by entirely giving in, many people die because

Denethor does not and cannot properly defend the city because he has given up. Yeah. He isn't even really thinking about what he's doing because he doesn't think it matters. Yeah. Particularly once Faramir comes back. He thinks that it does not matter. Like he has been doom scrolling Twitter for like 60 years.

doom scrolling Twitter for like 60 years and a Twitter entirely populated, almost entirely by right wingers. Like imagine it's like the four you tab on Twitter. It is. Denethor has been scrolling specifically Twitter. Only the tweets that like Elon Musk allows to be popular. Yeah. If Elon had that level of control like it is the only verified accounts can be on the for you page saran is like has control of denethor's essentially information flow and he is only letting him see the stuff that makes him the most depressed, the most upset, because even if he cannot dominate his mind entirely like he

did with Saruman, what is the next best thing Sauron can get out of Denethor? Get him to give up before the battle even starts. Sauron, master of manipulation. I want to continue to extend this out a little bit before I get to my main man, Theoden. The Witch King, the main ringwraith. He is also called the Lord of Despair. The Ringwraiths, if particularly within the text, the Ringwraiths' main power over the free people of Middle-earth, and particularly men, isn't their flying beasts, isn't their swords, isn't magic. It's their overwhelming aura drains hope from people that can hear them and be in their presence it is described multiple times in the lead-up to the siege of gondor that the ringwraith says they like circle in the sky overhead over gondor that the citizens of gondor feel hopeless they feel drained of energy and of life yeah that would be a terrifying sight to be honest

and it's it's the thing it's the sight of them but it's not just to say it's literally like like an evil aura that they give off that just being near them makes you despair and i can't emphasize that their biggest thing isn't that they're scary immortal shadow people the most potent weapon they have is fear it's despair and the thing that hurts gondor the most before the battle starts is how many people in Gondor have already given into despair and believe that the fight is hopeless. If you cannot see now where I'm going with this parallel to real life, one of the reasons you see such dedicated vitriol from the right wing towards anti-capitalists, towards queer people. Part of the reason you see so much of this media demonizing us is because if we give in, we have already given up fighting for ourselves. The fight becomes that much easier for them because we have already decided, we have already decided, you know, we have already determined within ourselves

that we can't win this fight. And so now their job is that much easier. It's much easier for them to pass laws banning like youth access to trans healthcare. You know, I'm ignoring like, obviously the multitudes of citizens who are just impassive to this sort of thing. But for the people that are aware of the fight, if you already think the fight is lost, then they win. Gondor falls because the citizens of Gondor have already realized that they're all going to die. And that's what happens to Denethor. Thankfully, it doesn't happen to the entire city of Gondor. And that's largely because Gandalf is there.

Gandalf is like, shut the fuck up, dude. Gandalf literally like is described as going from place to place throughout the city, just going to groups of soldiers and being like, no, we need to fight. We're going to win. Do your best. This is what we need to fight. We're going to win. Do your best. This is what we have to do. And that like soldiers are boosted wherever he goes. That's also literally the thing that Aragorn does in multiple different battles and particularly

a battle of Helm's Deep. Aragorn's biggest thing, aside from his swordsmanship, he's described as bringing hope and rallying the men anywhere he goes. He even does it to your main man. He does. He does. He and Gandalf do it to my main man. So before I move on to that main man, that's, again, what I feel is that lesson that I was

taking from this, and I have taken from this. Giving in to despair means you've done the enemy's work for them. Now, they're always trying to make you feel this way because of course they want you to. Why wouldn't they? But it's our responsibility to not let them. Even again, even if not for ourselves, for the people around us. Because sometimes simply by the fact of you not giving in to despair, you can help somebody else not, which is what brings me to my main man, Theoden, son of Thengel, king of Rohan.

Obviously, when we meet Theoden, he is under the spell of Saruman via the whispery, shitty words of a man literally called worm tongue which again not really being too subtle with the names i mean in the book in in the book it is actually described that worm tongue is a name that all the other people of rohan have given to him okay so it's not his actual name no his actual name is name is, you know, he's Grima, son of Gleon or whatever. But like everyone in court and all the other people of like of like in that like work in Medjicel or like live in like the capital, call him Wormtongue. Like everybody else gets that he sucks ass.

So Theoden obviously is under the spell of Saruman. What is the spell that Saruman's cast on Theoden? How has it made him feel? It's made him feel despairing and hopeless and weak to the point

where he doesn't think they should take any action at all against the orcs that are currently ravaging their countryside. And even prison even puts aomer in jail for disobeying his orders by fighting the orcs he is in a position similar to denethor where he has under the spell of despair this time from saruman this time from saruman who is time from Saruman, who is again, just doing it in service of his own ends and Saruman. Cause Saruman's a little bitch. He's yeah. He's a squirmy little bitch,

but thanks to some timely intervention from Gandalf, he is reminded that, Oh, actually wait, things aren't as bad as they seem. And then Gandalf's like, you're right. They're not,

but they are still really bad. And we need to talk about that right now uh because even though like the movie messed with the timeline a little bit if you read the book it's like a few paragraphs a few pages maybe from Théoden like arising and getting his strength back to oh my god the hosts of the orcs are already behind us on the way to helms deep we're gonna be in a fight like post haste like it's a few pages it happens a lot the movie does like speed that up uh slow that down a whole lot like there's liberating and talking and they're like where are we going and what are we doing and theoden's like helm is deep and then fucking gandalf is like a fucking coward yeah meanwhile in like the book gandalf is like you should probably go to helm's deep bro

and theoden's like you're right we probably should and they just go yeah gandalf gandalf in the movie is like kind of disparages the the fact they're going to helm's deep and then it's like i gotta go find aomer or they're gonna die yeah well obviously people need to remember that the book version aomer is there the whole time and gandalf is like yeah you should probably go to helm's deep man uh that's probably the best place for you to actually try and survive. And Theoden's like, yeah, you're right. We probably should. And where Gandalf takes off for is to go find Erkenbrand, who is a whole different guy who has a whole different group of soldiers. But

that's obviously they had to simplify things for the movies, which is fine. I also love Eomer very much, so I'm not going to talk shit about him. But getting into Theoden, Theoden is the perfect example, counter to Denethor, of why choosing hope is the right thing to do, why it's the proper thing to do. He's obviously under a shield of despair when they meet him. They go to Helm's Deep, and obviously the battle's going pretty poorly at first. And for most of it, it's going pretty poorly. They're losing. Daoden does the thing where he's like, I'm not going to die here like an old badger in a trap. I'm going to get on my horse and ride the fuck out there and cut some

heads off before I die, because that is the right and proper thing to do. Not to sit here and wait to be taken. Even though some people like, you know, you're safer in here. Right. And he's like, fuck being safe.

It's my duty to go out there and kill some orcs, you know, for my people and all that. Right. Yeah. For my people. It is my job. They do dramatic.

They dramatized it a little bit differently in the movie than it does in the books but the effect is the same the sword the the horn of helm hammer hand yes sound in the deep yes for wrath and for ruin and for the red dawn you know that sort of thing i'm not joking with the audience when i read that like chapter and I get that point, like myself, just reading the book, I will cry just reading that section. And I'm not ashamed of it. I cry reading the charge, uh, out of Helm's deep. And I also cry at the next part we're going to talk about, which is the charge of the Rohirrim at the

Pellinor fields. I cry every time. Not even ashamed. I will watch Return of the King sometimes just so I can have a good cry. There, look into my soul. You're welcome. The emotional high point of the story, in my opinion. And it is, again, specifically for me. Because, so you have that,

and then Helm's Deep, it works out, because so you have that and then it helps deep. It works out like they charge out. The orcs get kind of scared at the same time that the orcs turn around and realize there's an entire valley full of of herons behind them, like a whole force that wasn't there before. That seems super ominous. And then also Urkenbrand and like a thousand dudes on foot come like charging over a ridge at the same time. And the orcs essentially get pinched between Urkenbrand and Gandalf, Theoden, and the people charging out of the caves, and an entire forest of murderous park trees. Oops. Yeah, which, you know, doesn't go well for the orcs obviously so it works out for for theoden at that point the other time obviously a little bit later the charge of the rohirrim at the battle

of pellinore fields this point you have again you have like they come over the hill theoden sees like the siege of gondor. And he does, for a moment, it's the briefest moment, given that he despairs. In the book, it says he looks hunched and old and withered. Merry is like, oh, looks like maybe he'll just turn around and we'll like, he sees we can't win, we'll

turn around and go back to Gondor, or go back to Rohan. But then there's a bright flash of lightning from the city, which, of course, was Gandalf fighting with the Witch King or something. But then there's like a bright flash of lightning from the city, which of course was Gandalf fighting with the witch king or something. And Theoden is like, straightens up and he's like, no, this is what we are here to do. And even says in the little speech, honestly, the speech in the movie is better than the speech in the book, kind of, because Bernard Hill is a really good actor and improvised a

little bit to that speech that he gives to the Rohirrim before the charge. And Bernard Hill's really good at it. So the speech in there is a little bit more impactful than the one he gives in the book. But the effect, again, is the same. And he essentially says to his writers, like, yeah, we're here. We're far from home now we're not at home and there's death in front of us but it's our duty to go meet it anyway and then he himself leads the charge all the way across the field you know into battle and you get some great descriptions of him you know looking like a rome of old and the when the you know the valar went to battle and you read the book for the first time you're like who the fuck is a rome yeah who the fuck is orame and you're like that that doesn't mean anything to me it just sounds

super cool and then you read the silver early and you're like ah that is super cool orome is badass he's like one of the two good valar okay there's like three of them that are actually pretty legit but you know theoden has been in, has been brought back to hope. And he is the prototypical example of that. He sort of knows going into the Battle of the Pelennor Fields that he is not going to live, that he is going to die in this war. Oh, yeah. He kind of thinks they all are. He kind of thinks they all are he kind of thinks they all are but he knows for sure like you get it in like his farewells as he's like leaving rohan that like he knows he's going to die

in in the book is is the rohirrim is their chant death no that is because that's that's the that's the bernard hill part that he added was like hitting the spears with the sword running down the line and then yelling death that was a bernard hill thing because they all scream death and and and charge and i'm imagining like the orcs just hearing wait what are they what are they saying yeah it's again it was a good addition there. And it's actually honestly just more on the nose for what's going on. And so Theoden has realized his situation, realized what his duty is. His duty is to fight this fight with no hope for himself. And then he goes and does the goddamn thing.

And does it work out for him? No, he gets killed. He gets crushed by his own horse and then almost gets eaten by a big winged beast. Of course, he gets saved, but not really saved by Eowyn, who stops like the Witch King from letting his beast eat his body. And then she kills the Witch King. And, you know, then he gets to die, but he gets to die like whole and not having his fucking soul devoured by a black writer but his entire arc of like the wizened old man who has essentially given up his kingdom to i myself will be at the charge of this battle in which I will die. Just in the hope that we will be able to win this battle and save the world.

When he dies, he has no idea whether they've won or not. And they actually haven't at the point he dies. Like, because Aragorn hasn't even showed up with like the chips yet. Now, he doesn't show up with the army of the dead because the army of the dead actually stops in labennan in the books he doesn't they don't actually make it to gondor but aragorn does get off the ships with like all of the soldiers from dolamroth and labennan and all the southern parts of gondor that couldn't show up before yeah they show up with like a human army beside the point when when theoden dies he does not know if they've won or not that's true i never really thought of that he has no idea if they've won the battle is still ongoing when he

dies but he dies knowing that he did the right thing because he believed that this was the path forward to get that better world that he believed was possible. And again, like Frodo in the end in Mordor, he goes into it knowing that there's no hope for him, but that there is hope for the people that come after him. There's maybe hope for Eomer. There's hope for Eowyn. There's hope for the rest of Rohan and whoever's left of the Gondorians, right? And that to me is the single most fundamental political message that I've taken away through all my years of like reading and rereading Lord of the Rings. Because when I look out here at the political situation of the world that we live in, be it the politics of capitalism, rising fascism, or the writhing waves of transphobia, the increasing attacks of other queer people, I look out and I do not this is just me granted i look out and i do not see a world where i am here when we win if such a thing if because if there can be winning is such a thing

if winning is a thing that can be achieved however i believe deep in my soul that fighting for it anyway is a moral obligation. to my queer politics and to my morals and even to my religious faith, my own personally, which I don't talk about on the podcast much. a young age with my politics, I have never foreseen for myself a world in which my beliefs have triumphed. But it is literally a moral imperative that I fight for a world in which they can triumph anyway whether I'm here for it or not and that is like literally gets to the the heart of what I believe and like and this book is where I first saw that like elucidated to me in a way that made sense no I can I can see that i can get it it is i mean it is a core theme of the novel the the novels in general and it's whenever it's presented it's present those are the most powerful moments so i mean the the right of the roherum it's it's burned into my brain so

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you can read called Beowulf, the Monsters and the Critics. It is Tolkien talking about Beowulf. Because Tolkien did one of the, I guess, one of the like foundational or aided in one of these sort of foundational translations of Beowulf are one of the ones people use now, like the modern translation of Beowulf. Tolkien helped with it. And he wrote this thing called The Monsters and the Critics, talking about the themes of these sort of old Anglo-Saxon sort of like sagas that draw a lot from, you know, Norse sagas, right? They're all sort of

connected and come from some of the same traditions. They have this concept that he talks about. It called like the circle of light. Imagine a campfire in like the middle of the, you know, like the darkest night. Imagine there's like a bonfire, a campfire. They have this concept of this is their, this sort of Anglo-Saxon concept of the world.

And again, it does sort of comes from the Scandinavia as well, that humans and good people essentially live within this circle of light in a dark world and that the dark world is full of monsters. Beowulf, of course, is like a direct representation of this, right? There's Grendel, Grendel's mother, the dragon, all that. And that it is the obligation of heroes to venture forth from the circle of light to the edge of the circle of light and to fight the monsters. And the idea that is prevalent in Beowulf is that even when he goes out to fight the dragon,

when he's old, he's pretty sure he's going to die fighting this dragon because he's an old man, but it is your moral obligation to do so anyway yeah i think we've brought this up at some point i might have brought it up at some point because again i i can't again this is foundational to me it's its core this is core to me is this idea that we do live in a world i don't you know i don't mean i might quibble on whether we have a small circle of light and it's mostly darkness, or if there's just lots of darkness in a world that also has lots of light, but that's beside the point. The point is that there

is darkness and there are monsters in that darkness and they want to get to us and that it is our moral obligation to stop them. Whether you're going to succeed or not, maybe they'll get you. If you keep fighting, eventually they will. That's the sort of Beowulfian outlook of it, is that if you fight enough monsters, eventually one of them will get you because eventually you're not going to be able to win anymore, but you have to do it anyway. Eventually, you're not going to be able to win anymore, but you have to do it anyway. And that is the underlying belief, the underlying ethos that Tolkien then repurposes and represents within Lord of the Rings with Frodo and Theoden. This idea that you have to go forth and do it.

You're probably going to die, but it's the right thing to do. forth and do it, you're probably going to die. That's the right thing to do. And listeners, I'm sorry if I've been preachy or repetitive, but this is going to be the most, like possibly the most personal episode I ever do this podcast, because this literally bears straight into the way I fundamentally view like my politics and the struggle for liberation, because I don't see a world where I'm here when we win, but I also don't see a world in which I don't fight for it because it's the moral thing for me to be doing. Yeah. A nice, meaningful, contemplative silence.

Do you have any, sorry, do you have any more? Do you have anything else to say i've monologued this entire episode i mean we did bill it as the asha monologue episode that's true we did do that but i wanted to give you a chance if there's anything else that uh i don't know no i like lord of the Rings too. Go read it, everybody. Here, I'll finish off. I'll read that final. How about I finish off by reading that final section

from The Charge of the Rohirrim about Lappel and our fields. Go for it. At the sound, the bent shape of the king sprang suddenly erect. Tall and proud, he seemed again. And rising in his stirrups he cried aloud in a voice more clear than any there had ever heard a mortal man achieve before. Arise, arise, riders of Theoden. Fell deeds awake, fire and slaughter. Spears shall be shaken, shields shall be splintered. A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises. Ride now, ride now, ride to Gondor.

With that, he seized a great horn from Huthloth, his banner bearer, and he blew such a blast upon it that it burst asunder. And straightaway with all the horns in the host were lifted up in music, and the blowing of the horns in Rohan in that hour was like a storm upon the plain and thunder in the mountains. Ride now, ride now, ride to Gondor. Suddenly the king cried to Snowmane, and the horse sprang away. Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a green field, but he outpaced it. After him thundered the knights of his house, but he was ever before them. Eremur rode there, the white horsetail in his helm floating in his speed, and the front of the first

Eodred rode roared like a breaker foaming to the shore, but Theoden could not be overtaken. Fae, he seemed, where the battle fury of his fathers ran like fire new in his veins, and he was born upon Snman like a god of old, even as a Rome the Great in the Battle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo, it shone like an image of the sun, and the grass flamed into green

about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea, and darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled and died, and the hooves of wrath rode over them. And then all the hosts of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even into the city thanks for listening everyone i think that's it i can't get my point across in that amount of time i don't know if i can make it any clearer hopefully somebody enjoys that as much as i like talking about it say i enjoyed listening hopefully some of you some of you like that if you if you want to talk about this sort

of thing i'm more than happy to talk about this sort of thing on twitter more if you'd like i can give you more pull quotes or more specific instances stuff like that this is sort of my bread and butter thank you for indulging me kethel i appreciate it anytime i promise everyone we won't go back to Tolkien again for a while. We got to do it every now and then. Every now and then I sort of need to sate my soul a little. So thank you all for listening. Shout out to all of our patrons.

You all are very wonderful. We're going to have more stuff on the Patreon up soon. Appreciate you all. Thank you all for listening. And, you know, join us again soon for, I think we're doing a Le Guin next. And then actually we might've run out of time. We might have to make Le Guin wait. We might have to go right on to Chronicles of Narnia. We'll see. We'll see. We get to talk about Tolkien's friend, confidant, person he liked to banter with. The man who, when asked about, when Tolkien was asked about the Christian themes in Lord of the Rings and allegories and such,

Tolkien said, you know, I like to keep it pretty vague. I like to leave the proselytizing to C.S We'll be back soon. We'll see us Lewis. Bye. Bye bye. be fucking real man come on