Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware - S14 Ep 10: Bjorn Ulvaeus

Episode Date: November 30, 2022

This week we have an actual real life member of ABBA on Table Manners. Only a few days after we went to see Abba Voyage, the legend, Bjorn Ulvaeus came over to Clapham for lunch.Bjorn told us all about how the Abba Voyage show came to fruition and how he and his band mates were turned into avatars. We spoke about Abba’s Eurovision win back in 1974 and what food they ate to celebrate!Whilst eating mum’s delicious blackened chicken with caramelised clementine sauce, (thank you Yotam), Bjorn told us about his love of sweets, his mum’s weekly fried pork & his introduction to Sashimi in Tokyo.If you ever wondered what Bjorn’s karaoke song was… tune in! It’s all in there.An absolute honour to host you Bjorn. If you haven’t already, go and see Abba Voyage - it will NOT disappoint. X Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Table Manners. I'm Jessie Ware and I'm here with Mum and I don't think I've done that intro for a while. I don't think you have. Oh no, because you've been away. How are you Mum? You are on cooking duty today. Yeah. But I think you're going to smack it. I might do, but who said Ottolenghi recipes are very simple? You said, make that Mum, it looks simple. It did look, I've been up since half past eight. I've been cooking, it's now 11 o'clock. Go on,

tell the listener what we're having. We're having blackened chicken with a caramelised clementine sauce. Yum. He loves a chicken in clementine, doesn't he? It's gorgeous. We have a huge guest today.

We actually, this is, this is a big deal. Like, he doesn't do interviews that often. I feel quite honoured. And, we actually this is this is a big deal like he doesn't do interviews that often i feel quite honored and we actually put it out to you lot to offer up some questions and we've had so many questions now we have bjorn from abba coming on and we're very very excited we went to see abba voyage on monday they've created a whole Abba arena. They made an arena

in the dock. Where is it? It's kind of... Pudding Mill Lane. Pudding Mill Lane. And it was remarkable. It was just mind-blowing. It was so wonderful. If you haven't got tickets, I tell you to go and get tickets. I would treat anyone for their Christmas present to go and see it because

it is so wonderful. It's amazing. It's unexpectedly amazing because you don't know what you're going to see and see it because it is so wonderful it's amazing it's unexpectedly amazing because you don't know what you're going to see and I won't give the secrets away but it is fantastic also you have a dance floor or seats so if you fancy dancing then you can dance but if you well everyone was dancing in the seats anyway it's a really wonderful space and for anybody that doesn't know what ABBA Voyage is it ABBA have created avatars of themselves where you essentially watch a performance but it's kind of more than a performance it's an experience with ABBA on stage as ABBA in the 70s would have looked they look like real people you are yeah. You don't think it's trickery.

It just seems like real people. But they're not there. I mean, you cheer when they come on. You cheer when they come on. You clap after every song. But it is a big party. It is really wonderful. And of course, Abba have so many hits.

So yeah, it was a brilliant. What was your favourite song? Oh man, I quite liked when they did SOS. That was quite early on, wasn't it? That was great. Voulez-vous. I like Fernando. Fernando was gorge.

Yeah, let's not tell them what everything is because it's got to be a surprise. Anyway, we have Bjorn coming over, flying in for a quick bit of blackened chicken. And then what have you done for Pud? A lemon polenta cake. Lemon polenta. Who did you do that for last?

Stanley Tucci. Only the best. Creme de la creme. How did you do that for last? Stanley Tucci. Only the best. Creme de la creme. How are you serving it? With mascarpone. Gorgeous. And raspberries. Absolutely fab.

Yeah. I did a gig for my friend Jess Mills for her mum's charity, which is Tessa Jowell Foundation, trying to make as much money to fund brain cancer research. And it was really amazing to be we were in Southwark Cathedral and I think what do you call a cathedral person is it a dean? I don't know I don't know priest I don't know anyway she loves you does she didn't know who I was but she kind of went oh you're Jessie Ware after I just sung. She went, oh, I love the podcast. I love your mum.

Of course, darling. Yeah, of course. Well, I went to see Manhattan Transfer last night. Ooh. Sean, Sean, I asked a lady if we're in the right queue, having bossed another lady about taking too long to get her wine. Yeah. And the lady said, you're Lenny.

You're Lenny from the podcast. She said, I don't need to see Manhattan Transfer now. She said, you've made my night. I tell everybody to listen, don't you? How, what, do you remember her name? What was her name? You must remember fans' names, Mum, next time. Sorry, darling, but a shout out to the lovely lady.

Val? I can't remember. Oh, God, Mum, you're terrible. But she was there with her friend, and shout out to the lovely lady, keep listening and keep telling all your friends that was very kind of local radio I think that was lovely

tell all your friends is it feeling weird getting recognised all the time mum no one recognises my face darling they listen to my dulcet tones that iconic voice that whinge well I've managed to grab Alistair Campbell for the podcast.

I love his politics podcast. When I told him who we were doing today, because when I was trying to entice him to come on. And what did he say? He said I've been to see Abba Voyage three times. Alistair Campbell is a huge Abba fan. I think I'd go again. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

I think we should take your daughter. I think she needs an education in Abba. In her ABBA. An ABBA. Anyway, we've got Bjorn coming up on Table Manners. Can we welcome you to Table Manners? You're in Clapham. Have you ever been to Clapham before? No, I don't think I have.

The whole place. And I was been to Clapham before? No, I don't think I have. The whole place. And I was all immersed in my computer going here, so I didn't know where I was going. Don't you get terrible car sickness if you're looking at your phone or your computer? Oh, no, no, no. I can easily work. Tough to stomach. Wherever. So I'm in Clapham. You're in Clapham. South London.

South London. Now, tell us where you've just been, where you've come from, and what you've been up to. I come from the BBC, from the Today programme, news programme. Great. And I've been sitting in my editor's chair, and I've done a few interviews, and we've kind of structured the whole programme, which will be, I have three hours at my disposal.

You're a guest editor. I'm a guest editor. On the 30th of December. On the 30th of December. For the Today program. Yes. Oh, that's wonderful. I love it when they have guest editors.

Yeah. Can you give us a hint? And I mean all these fantastic journalists at my disposal. Fabulous. I can send them out. I'm sending one to Guatemala. Wow. my disposal. I can send them out. I'm sending one to Guatemala and I'm reaching out to talk to famous people, interesting people. What's the kind of band, what are you particularly interested in that you'd

like to bring alive? I'm going for big topics like Europe, democracy and climate change, but also fun stuff like Eurovision. Talking to some fun people about that and about a thing that intrigues me and which I don't know the answer to, thing that intrigues me and which i don't know the answer to which is that the gay community has always embraced abba and at the same time eurovision and i don't know why that is so i'm trying to find out i'm um you still don't know i'm inviting my dear friend sandy toxvig to be one of the people to talk. Is that right where you are? We love Sandy. She's been on this podcast.

Oh, she has? Yeah. Okay. I adore her. Love Sandy. She's funny and wonderful and also quite serious. Yes. And important.

Oh, that's fabulous. And you still haven't worked out why you have such a huge queer following? No, I haven't. So in this program, I mean to find out i love that i think sequence has a lot to do with it to be honest oh well no not the music oh the music is fabulous but the the whole the whole drama yeah we're blamed for that completely but i mean this it was the glam rock era and everyone had sequence but now it's only us that have to take the blame for that

no I'm giving it a good go too I wear a few sequins on stage but it's very much thanks to you guys can we just say congratulations on Abba the Voyage it is mind blowing mind blowing spectacular and I didn't know what

to expect and I was absolutely enthralled it's just a sensational voyage really don't you think Jess I think you've been so clever with not giving anything away so there's this mystery yeah and there's a beautiful warmth with the people in the audience your fans are fantastic yeah they're fun they're dressed up there's like this sense of occasion and then you go in and we can't give too much away but you know people I think know the gist oh yeah yeah they do by now but yeah um uh and I kept on looking at the stage and then looking at the crowd and look it and there was such joy and everyone loved it it was it was so brilliant and yeah congratulations how

long did that take to work on well the the first idea embryo idea no no it was uh it came from uh simon fuller actually oh really the manager yeah the manager yeah is he your manager no no he's not but he was involved in the he planted the idea of making digital copies of ourselves okay and using those copies in various environments. Yeah. So it was as vague as that to begin with, but it was intriguing, we thought. Was it after you had seen the Coachella performance of when Tupac was a hologram?

It was after that. Yeah. Yes. Was that a kind of inspiration to you? That and Michael Jackson had some kind of performance at the Grammys one year where he was also a hologram. So, yeah, the hologram technology was the foundation for it. But then we found out that hologram technology is old-fashioned and what's your technology called um are you called what would you name it's it's essentially

motion capture and film okay yeah so we gave up hologram about a year into the project. Right. And it's been meandering. And we've taken on new directions several times. But then we ended up with ILM, which is a company that is owned by Disney. And it was originally Lucasfilm. Right. And they've been doing the work since. And what we did was, as I said, motion capture. It is essentially when you capture someone's movements and someone in the face and in the body and everywhere, and make measurements of how long your nose is,

how wide your mouth is, and so forth. How big your smile is. Yes, exactly. And apparently the skull doesn't change with age. Oh. I didn't know that before we did this, but the rest, as we know, falls apart this but the rest as we know falls apart but the skull stays the same

so this is so good because you can make younger copies of yourself with the exact measurements How old did you select? What was your age? We had a discussion of course

should we be our real age? What was your age that you chose? Well, we had the discussion, of course. Should we be our real age? Should we make avatars that were 70 plus? Or was it more fun to kind of recreate something from the 70s? And we decided on the latter, obviously. It was really fun. And the way that you all move on stage you know the dancing i'm wondering how and forgive me if the girls were doing all the moves at the age of 75 yeah i'm presuming you had dancers that mimicked and studied videos of your performances yes yes exactly but then with the facial expressions you you're all

here yeah and so were you used yourself for all the facial expressions yes yes yes so you got it was a collaboration it was it was an integration between young bodies and older and and making becomes her but like not like But also your voices were young. They weren't old voices. How do you treat the voices? So what you hear, the voices you hear, including backing vocals, are from the tracks, from the albums.

Amazing. And whatever Benny and I are playing that you see on stage is from the old albums. The rest is played by a ten-piece band. Yeah, which was fantastic. Yeah, so it makes it very live. And when you're speaking, were those your voices? Because each ABBA member has a moment speaking to the audience.

That's us now. That's you now. Yeah, which we will have to change slightly if we go to, for instance, Singapore. And I just came from Singapore 14 days ago. Would be a fantastic place for voyage as well. So you're having a little look out. But then we, yes, and somewhere in North America as well.

But it must be in the States. Yeah, somewhere in North America. Why did you decide on London as the first place? It's only two hours away from Stockholm. Where you live? Is that where you live? You all live there?

Yeah, we all live in Stockholm. And the infrastructure for music and film is here. And the talent is here. Everything, all of that stuff is here and the talent is here, everything, all of that stuff is here. Plus England has always seen us as a little

of their own. Yeah, I think we claimed you. Yes, you claimed even though the jury in Brighton gave us zero points, you know that. I heard that, I can't believe it because it was the best song. Yeah, well. Everyone was dancing to Waterloo.

Eurovision was such a big thing when I was growing up. It still is, right? No, but it was a family thing. Okay. The whole family would sit round for Eurovision. We'd work out all the points. We'd have special pop to drink, you know, and it was just such a big thing.

Do you remember watching ABBA? Yes. Oh, you do? Of course I do. Okay. When did you win? 74. 74, size 23.

So who did you think would win that year? I thought you would win. Oh, did you? Because it was such a different song. It was like nothing we'd ever heard. It was lively. You were dressed amazingly. And it was just so exciting.

So, yeah, definitely I thought Abba would win. Can I ask, when you decided, so someone suggested it, when you're in a group, do you all have to agree everything together or did you have to bring people into it and they weren't that keen or are you talking about abba voyage yeah yeah yeah no no the the four of us i mean we're very democratic and the four of us have have to all four decide to say yes. If someone says no it's a no. But serious and big decisions like that are taken

the four of us all the time. And you all get on even though you were in relationships and you've separated. We do. We get on so well. Is that like the Swede in you? Do you feel like you like that just you're kind of more brilliantly tolerant of each other being swedish i don't know i feel like everyone

in london would be england would be like screw you i'm taking the songs well i saw manhattan transfer last night were they in relationship 50th anniversary do you remember them who they sang their big song was Chanson d'Amour. Ah, okay. So it must have been around the same time as you. Yes, I think so. Yeah, it was the same. Were they all there?

Except one who died and they'd replaced him with some, but I mean, there was a tribute to him, but they're all still singing and performing. Well, there were times when we were disagreeing, of course, but now when we did the album, the Voyage album... The Grammy nominated. Yes. Yes, congratulations.

Then we get along famously and we have, you know, such bonds. Do you live near each other in Stockholm? Not really, no. And Frida lives in Mallorca and Switzerland. Oh, wow. And Agnetha outside Stockholm. Benny and I in Stockholm, but not close to each other. But, you know, when we were in the studio together after 40 years,

you realize the story, the things that we have experienced, the fact that we were doing this after 40 years is amazing in itself. That creates bonds that, you know, I don't think anyone else has in that way. And the way that the music for some reason has stayed so relevant and um through through the years i mean not only are your melodies like second to none

it blows my mind um but lyrics too and stories that you tell stories um is it a very collaborative experience in the in the room when you're doing when you're writing those songs because like yeah slipping through my fingers yes um that's your favorite that's my favorite i think because i feel complete mother's guilt yeah yeah yeah i know i captured that completely yeah yeah it was just i remember my daughter going off to reception class like and i just had it i was crying class. And I just had it. I was crying as I came home. Just had it on repeat in my headphones.

Like I was punishing myself. It was like the most beautiful way of punishing myself. But is it very collaborative? Well, the way we worked was that Benny and I were sitting together. Yeah. Writing the actual melodies. Melodies, right. They always came first.

And he is a musical genius. And I was kind of complimenting him in that work. So we would write away, actually, office hours, almost. I love an office. Very disciplined. I love a nine to five yeah nine to five love it working working working and writing about 14 songs a year or completing 14 songs and throwing away 95 of everything and and then when we'd have like three, four songs, we'd go into the studio with studio musicians, three of them, guitar, bass and drums. And I would write a demo lyric.

And I would sing that again and again. And we would add things and someone would come up with an idea. And we'd, oh, keep that, that's good. And then in the end, we'd have a backing track of that song and maybe with a few overdubs strings or something and then i would take that home and i would listen to it over and over again until and surprisingly it so often kind of told me what it was about. It just came down. And I would see images. I would see film sequences sometimes.

And it was just a matter of transforming that to song lyrics. As a musician who's fascinated by, well, songwriting, and also I find songwriting incredibly frustrating and magic at the same time. It's that hard work, but then there's those moments of pure magic where you're like, I don't understand what just happened, but it's working and let's go with this. Like, Swedish songwriters are celebrated

and particularly for their approach. And there's a kind of form, a formula. You think about that, which, well, people from the outside, you look at people like you, Max Martin, these really successful songwriters that have hit after hit after hit yeah and we talk about this swedish formula but no one really understands because there is no formula okay fine that we were accused you know in the day of being working to a formula and being a hit factory and all of that very plastic, very shallow but then how can you we released Fernando and then after Fernando, Dancing Queen

do you see a formula? Can you give me one bit of advice? Fine, maybe not a formula because actually yours are so intricate and complicated in many ways but then have that pop sensibility which makes it sing along and accessible and universal yes give me one tip but this idea that you had to start with a chorus and we and things like that they are they are new because in in the

day in the 70s we had time we didn't have to do there was no streaming there there were no people who were zapping or or you know clicking uh we had time we did fernando with two verses before the chorus game i mean it took a minute before the chorus you wouldn't today i mean people don't do that it won't get on radio so well no the only thing I can say is that people often are in a hurry they are like in a hurry

they have to finish things before they're finished I think we threw away so much and we just kept the really good stuff so that every well you know we I don't know what we threw away maybe was some good stuff but the only stuff we kept was in our minds in our heads because we never wrote anything down we never recorded anything it was just a stuff that stuck that we used wow so maybe that's a piece of advice okay the stuff that stays with you yeah don't record don't write anything down just see what sticks i love that you were you

born it you were born in stockholm no i was born in a small town south of stockholm population 20 000 called destiny on the baltic um that's where i grew up you're one of a big family uh there was me and my sister and my dad and me and uh was a very idyllic upbringing. Musical family? Not musical, no. My dad used to bring out his mandolin when he was tipsy and sang a few songs, but that was all. So not musical, not really. What do you get tipsy on in Sweden? You got tipsy on... Schnapps? Schnapps. It would have been schnapps most of the time,

or some cheap whiskey. Cheap whiskey. What's the basis of schnapps? Is it a grape or a cherry? It's potato, isn't it? Potato, is it? Or like vodka. Oh, right.

Yeah, I think it's potato or any kind of corn. Was your dad cooking? No, no, my dad never cooked. My mum cooked and she did the same thing. We got the same thing every weekday or every Wednesday. We would get the same thing as next Wednesday. And what was, do you remember the Wednesday meal? The Wednesday was probably fried pork, like like pork gammon gammon yeah like

a Swedish dish yeah and and that together with sweet and sour kind of beans that are very Swedish oh yeah sweet and sour beans yeah that's what you that was Wednesday On Saturday she always went to the local fish market where there was fresh fish. And we had Baltic herring, fried Baltic herring, which was all wonderful. Delicious. Was there ever any doubt that you would eat fish, being a Swedish person? I mean, did you ever kind of reject it? I don't think I liked it in as a child but I I got used to it and now I absolutely love it and there was a lot of marinated herring and stuff like that cod I remember a lot of cod and we had fish perhaps two or three times a week and are you a good cook did you bring any dishes to the abba table not really when i was married to my first wife agneta she and i were you know equally good cooks

i think so i cooked more then but then i then i i met lena my second wife, and she was such a great cook that I kind of stopped. What was a really great dish that she made? Well, one that you just... She made all kinds of dishes. What was the best? She used to do a pheasant with a sauce that was to die for. And she... Chili con carne was to die for. And she... Chilli con carne was marvellous.

Lots of stuff. What's Christmas like in your family? What's the set-up? And is there any lovely Christmas Abba traditions? There is. Christmas is a really big thing in our family. And I've got four kids and nine grandchildren. Nine?

Yes. I'm jealous. And so we're getting together on Christmas, all of us. And each one, each family brings something. With me and my former wife, we used to bring Gravalax. I love that. Did you make it? I've seen her make it, and it's not very difficult.

It's not very difficult. No. I have to admit. And then I used to do the sauce, the mustard sauce that goes with it. I love that. With sweet dill. Dill. A lot of dill. Oh, my word. sauce that goes with it. I love that. With sweet dill. Dill. A lot of dill.

A lot of dill. And sugar and oil and eggs and stuff. And we also used to marinate fillet of beef, a big fillet of beef, also marinated in the same manner as grav grovel acts actually and that's what we used we bring and then others bring meatballs of course and marinated herrings of all kinds and cheeses and uh oh will you sing um you get around the piano um no they're probably going not waterloo again dad not waterloo on christmas no what do we sing when people have schnapps i don't have schnapps but

others around me do they sing he long go very silly swfar, Landland, Landland, it's a very silly Swedish drinking song. What's it mean? It's very difficult to translate, actually. I'll leave it there, especially when you've had a few shots. An Englishman translated it to hell and gore. Oh, hell and gore. But it means that now we drink the first schnapps, something. Okay.

Yeah, and then there's another one coming soon. Do you have pudding? What's for dessert on Christmas Day? Do you have Christmas Eve? Is that when you celebrate? Yeah, Christmas Eve is a big thing. And there's some kind of sweet rice pudding, I know, with oranges. And yes, Christmas Eve is when Santa Claus comes for the kids.

I ask a neighbor or someone, and he dresses up as Santa. Oh, wow. And then, oh, and gather all the grandchildren. I think Santa is coming and they look out the window and there he is walking with his big rucksack and knocking on the door and giving gifts to the kids. Oh lovely. That's Christmas Eve for us. Is anybody hungry? I'm very hungry. Oh, yeah, me too. OK, I'll get this sorted.

I'm really hungry. So, Bjorn, we've never done this before, but we know how rare and special this is that we've got you in the room having a chat. So we actually told people that you were going to be on. We never name our guests. And ABBA Voyage put it out on their Instagram. Because we wanted to give people, because this is really exciting,

the chance to ask you questions. And I hope this is okay. I hope they okayed this with you. But when I said we got hundreds, within kind of an hour, we had so many questions. Would you be open to answering some of them? Oh, yes, of course.

Right, whilst mum gets the grub on, thank you, mum. Is it true Madonna came to see you to ask permission to sample gimme gimme gimme for her song hung up and if not have you met her uh never met her she sent an assistant with the finished uh tape or whatever it was at that time and to stockholm and benny and to Stockholm and Benny and I listened to it and we said it took us perhaps half a minute or 45 seconds to say yeah

because it was so bloody brilliant put together by Stuart Price her producer and the one who probably spliced the two songs together in that way i've been working with stewart on my new record and i was intrigued by this song and how it came about and he said that she said to him i mean you probably know this like she said something like i want like i want to feel like it's like psychedelic ABBA set like she said she wanted it and he was like okay let's do this and he was like right let's go oh wow so that's how it happened she

was like I want that feeling and so he was he was great and he listened to the tracks and he put he wrote the music right yeah I think so yeah yeah i mean she's amazing at top lines i think i think she did all the top lines oh she did okay okay but the way it's put together the harmonies and everything is brilliant it is really exciting is the song i'm a marionette a story of how the girls in the group felt at the time oh good question very good question. Very good question. Because it's from a mini musical that we wrote for one of our tours. And it is about a woman who finds herself, you know, from being an ordinary girl to very famous and being, you know, like a marionette. Our Ladies certainly weren't like that. But a lot of women in the 70s, I'm sure, felt like that, being pushed by managers and NR people, by, you know, back and forth, like marionettes.

But it wasn't about Our Ladies. It was about a fictional one. My Love, My Life is such a beautiful song. Which song do you think Agnetha sings best? She very much acted her songs. She was a good storyteller. So I have various different favorites. I mean, the long note that she holds in Gimme Gimme is not bad.

And the performance she gives in The Winner Takes It All is really heart-rending. So I would think that is my favourite. OK. Can I ask, I'm sure you've told this story a lot, but how did you all meet and were there any really memorable kind of moments with food amongst those kind of early years of abba um i i just remember that being on tour in the late 60s and beginning of the 70s

in in sweden was horrible because the food was so horrible really lucky would have been in the late 60s and the beginning of the 70s in Sweden was horrible because the food was so horrible. Really? Like it would have been in the English countryside as well, you can imagine. Right, yeah. I remember one distinctly. I remember the day after we had won the Eurovision Song Contest,

we had dinner in a Wheeler's restaurant. Is Wheeler's a chain that is a big fish restaurant and i had the best dover soul in my life do you think that was because of the wind though yeah that was because of the wind we could afford it we thought and and and ever since then, sole meuniere is my favorite fish dish. It's the queen of fishes. Does it take you back to that feeling of winning the Eurovision? Yeah, it does. And then I have memories from Tokyo and our last tour in 82,

when I was introduced to sashimi and the Japanese kitchen, which I absolutely love that's probably my favorite if i was forced to choose one cuisine it would probably be the italian italian yeah but number two would be japanese i think well that leads us on to you can start mulling this over, your last supper. You've got a starter, a choice of a starter, main, dessert and drink of choice. Have a think. Where would you go? Because I'm feeling like maybe Italian and Japanese are going to play a part in this.

Or are you going to go more nostalgic for that Dover's Soul? Yes, as a main dish, I would actually go for a Dover's Soul. That Wheeler's Dover's Hall. Yes. As a main dish, I would actually go for a Dover's Hall. That Wheeler's Dover's Hall. Yes. And being a bit nostalgic. This is my last supper. Yes. Yeah.

And as a starter, I would have a really, really good carpaccio. Is there a particular Italian restaurant that you're getting that from I was in Rome not long ago and they have a very good restaurant at the hotel what the hotel is called I cannot remember now

maybe it will come back to you maybe it will come back and dessert I would probably indulge in a pavlova. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, you know what? We could have, thank you. For our last recording of a guest, we did a pavlova.

And now I'm very sad that we didn't do it for you. Yeah, well. I'm sorry. And drink of choice? Drink of choice, I would drink a really good alcohol-free lager. I've got beer without alcohol if you want. Great. Would you have one now?

Do you want one? No, no, I'd rather stay on the water. But for my last supper, that's what I take. That looks gorgeous, Mum. Oh, wow. It is. Very nice. I've just got to get the rice out. nice um thanks mom it looks gorge actually i'm um

at the moment trying um an anti-inflammatory diet but i'm making an exception for this oh no what does that mean absolutely what's the anti what's the inflammatory it is absolutely no sugar okay and no sugar like food which is like uh um bread white bread and stuff like that and not processed foods well this isn't processed is it no no but i make it an exception okay yeah of course why have you decided to go on this diet uh because i've read so much about it and that it's good for you. But you look amazing. Thank you. And since I started three weeks ago, I think I sleep better.

Oh, really? So that's... But do you have a big sweet tooth? Was that part of the thing? Do you want to help yourself or do you want me to help you? Please help me. Yes, I love sweets. I love candy of all kinds.

I'm going to put it on here first because I think I'll do better. Oh, look at that. You like sweets and candy? Yes. Oh, Mum, it looks delish. I hope so. So it's an Ottolenghi dish. Do you like Ottolenghi?

Oh, yeah. I was at one of his courses, actually. Oh, really? Yes. Where? Oh, yeah. I was at one of his courses, actually. Oh, really? Yes. Where? Somewhere in England. I think it was close to Manchester. There was a big Google do, and I was speaking there,

and he was there, and he had a course. He's delightful. And he did something with yogurthurt and butter beans. Oh, nice. Very nice dish. How is it? Does it need salt? I don't know.

What do you think? Oh, good. All that. Positive growth. Lovely. So good. It's because it's got sugar in and you're just really happy to be reunited with growth. Lovely. There are groans of... Oh, it's so good. It's because it's got sugar in, and you're just really happy to be reunited with sugar.

Yeah. I'm feeling it much, much more than I did three weeks ago, I think. It's a sensation. Thank you for making an exception today. I appreciate that. Oh, Mum, that is delish. Oh. Oh, it's like really warming it's perfect for

today mmm how long are you in London for we came yesterday and I'm leaving after this going to Copenhagen you're non-stop I'm going to look for a look at a venue for Mamma Mia the party I've heard heard about the Mamma Mia the party. Yeah. This is the dinner party. Yes, it is. Where, is it a bit kind of cabaret in the sense that people sing around and they do Mamma Mia songs and then you're eating with, like you're on a wedding table with people? Yeah, it's, we imagine that you're in a Greek taverna.

Which is a great place to be. And the owner of the taverna and the staff and his mother and everyone tell a story in real time while you're eating. And the story is told the same way as Mamma Mia! the musical with dialogue and songs that tell the story as well. How fabulous. Can I ask you a few more of the questions? Yes, of course.

Because I kind of feel like this is huge for ABBA fans worldwide to be able to have this chance. So how did you decide which non-singles to include in ABBA Voyage? There are so many to choose from was this a group discussion I presume it was who pushed for the magnificent hole in your soul we did we bounced it back and forth between us for a long time yeah well first of all we decided Voyage could have been a film with us acting in it and stuff like that. We decided it would be a concert, just like we had gone on tour.

And so we built the set list, the song list, as we would have done on a tour. would have done on a tour. And we just chose the songs exactly in that way. And then it's a matter of what is fun to perform, what works dynamically and harmonically and in segments. Exactly how you construct a song list for a concert. So that's why it's not all hits. It's other stuff as well. Album tracks and no B-sides, I think, but album tracks. Which ABBA song doesn't get the recognition that it deserves?

Well when we released it the day before you came was not a hit Right Do you know why do you think that happened? I think we were once

Which year was that? It was? I think we were once... Which year was that? It was 1982, I think. And I think we were one step ahead of the audience. They didn't quite... They had followed us thus far, you know, in developing album by album. But at that point, maybe, I don't know what it was, but they were kind of being maybe too dramatic or something.

But that song has gained such recognition now that there is no song I can think of that hasn't. So even though that wasn't a hit and it's received recognition, does it still feel frustrating or can you just enjoy the fact that it's still been appreciated but a bit later on? Oh yes, I can enjoy that. Yeah, no problem. Fine, great.

No, I'm very bitter. After you had made the album Voo Lé Voo, how did you pick which songs to release as singles? As Good As New is my favourite and My Friends is if it wasn't for the night. Mm-hmm. Well. Did you choose or was it a conversation with the label? We chose the four of us.

Which singles were on Voo Lay Voo? I don't know. I don't know. I can just tell you how it worked every time. right okay yeah yeah when we had an album uh Benny and I would choose our favorites yeah the ladies too and our manager Stig Anderson was involved and then we knew what we felt and then we sent the album out to like five or six people we trusted around the world, publishers or A&R people, selected people we knew we could trust. We sent them out and they would come back with their favorites for the first single. And was it usually the same as yours? And then we would compile that and see,

okay, so all these other people think that that one should be a single. And if that coincides with our taste, I mean, it was a no-brainer. Sometimes it didn't. And sometimes we were not agreeing among ourselves. And then we'd have to come to some kind of compromise on so that's how it worked that's being in a band isn't it yeah kind of still do it like that

i don't know i suppose so i feel like potentially nowadays the album becomes secondary to what the singles are and that's sad i think yeah yeah I think people are very single focused yes they are it's a different thing yeah and so you kind of go against the grain if you kind of are going yeah yeah I don't know we were able to be so album oriented you you can't be that today almost well you can if you're Taylor Swift or someone like that, but it's geared towards singles now, isn't it? And you release one single after the other and so forth. Track listing, would you always put your top four songs, your favourite ones at the top? Is that what people do?

That's what I've heard people do. Rick Rubin said, put your favourite ones at the top, put the best ones at the top, and then they'll listen to the rest. But then it's one of your album fillers at the bottom. Well, there shouldn't be any filler on an album, should there? No, there should be all killer, no filler. Yeah. That's how we worked. Yeah.

Every song on the album was always, you know, the best we could do at that given moment. And there was never anything onto an album that was, oh, well, then we, bah, you know. Mm-hm. They were all written with the same kind of care, all the songs. When did you last go and see Mamma Mia, the musical? And are people still shocked when they see you in the audience? I know that you've been to see Abba Voyage a lot.

And they announce, whoever the Abba member is, they announce it over the tannoy's, don't they, that you're in the house? Do you stand in the dance floor a bit? I stay in the background. No, I don't dance a lot, will I? Even if other people do. Well, I saw the musical about three months ago,

and that was the first time in maybe five years. But then it's on its 23rd year now in London. Would you like some coffee or tea to go with a piece of... Oh, yes, some coffee would be lovely. How do you like your coffee? Regular black coffee with a little oat milk, if you have. Oh, good luck. Have you got oat milk? No, ordinary milk, that's fine, that's fine.

Today's a day of exceptions. God, I hope your tummy's going to be all right. Would you like a piece of cake? You're looking at it, Bjorn. I feel like that sugar-free diet is going out the window today. Yes, today, but... You've broken the seal now. You may as well just enjoy it.

Tomorrow I'm back on it again. So I'm enjoying this immensely. So this is lemon polenta cake. Ah! And the last time I made it was for Stanley Tucci. Oh, really? And he liked it. Would you like some mascarpone just on the side? Yes, yes, please.

And there's some raspberries there. This looks fab. When you split up from your wife in Abba, did it affect the relationship, the music? I mean, was there a time where you just had to not be with each other

to get over the separation? Or were all the songs really angry and resentful i don't know was it because you're such good friends still yeah because ours was um you know a divorce where we kind of both decided at the same time that we had grown apart and that at the same time that we'd grown apart and that, you know, it was almost like a handshake. Maybe we should get divorced. Maybe this isn't working. Yeah, you're right. We should. And then we split up. So there was no acrimony. And did you have children? There was no acrimony. We had small children and Agnetha moved to a house that was very very close to where we were living so we imagined that the kids would be able to go back and forth. Didn't work out that way but no so we decided that we have such a thing,

such a wonderful vehicle to express ourselves, Abba, that it would be such a shame to stop that. And since we both agree, we kept on working. And I think Benny and Frida did the same thing. Is there a song that really feels like your song with Agnetha? Is there a song that really... No, I don't think I ever wrote about her and me specifically. But, of course, I took experiences from our lives together

and our families together and all kinds of aspects of relationship. I took that and made fiction of it. That's the funnest thing that I find with songwriting that it doesn't, when I actually tried to do a really autobiographical one, it was really boring. Yeah, yeah.

It's much more fun telling stories. It is, isn't it? Yeah. I so agree. Who is Fernando? Fernando. Fernando is an old guy. Yeah.

Have you met him? No, he's built on a freedom fighter in Pancho Villa's army. It's one of the Mexican revolutions. But this is... I hear the drums. Fernando is sitting on the porch with his wife or his partner, and she's the one who sings. Yeah. wife or his partner and she's the one who sings yeah and she sings about when they were together

fighting in Pancho Villa's army can you hear the drums Fernando and they recall that fateful night and when they crossed the Rio Grande and so forth that's Fernando what about Chiquitita? That's her daughter. No. Because that's quite a mouthful. I mean, respect, that's not like, you know, a Jude or a Delilah. That's percussive. Yeah. Chiquitita.

It's such a lovely name. It comes from the sound of the word. Okay. it comes from the sound of the word I had written two lyrics that didn't work before that for that song can we hear which ones they were? I don't remember them they weren't good enough, they didn't stay in their head no they didn't stay in their head

but then sounded like so you take a melody and the kind of feel of the vowels or the... Yes, the sound. And we'll make a word out of it. Yeah, make a word out of it and then weave a story around that. Well, there you go.

Next time I'm in the studio, I'll say, what would Bjorn do? Bjorn, do you have good table manners? I think you do. I just asked you that when you were putting some food in your mouth. He's looking at me to reassure him that he's doing all right. Exactly. You are an exceptional guest. Thank you.

If you had a dinner party and you can invite anyone, dead or alive, who would you have i'd be very interested to talk to nelson mandela yeah because of he's coming out of jail after all that time and being so rational and so positive positive so rational and so... Positive. Positive. I completely agree with you. That's someone I would like to talk to.

Have you ever met him then? No, no, I never met him. And then I would like to talk to Voltaire. Yeah. The Enlightenment philosopher. I would invite him. And who else? I would invite Astrid Lindgren.

She wrote the Pippi Longstocking stories. Astrid Lindgren. And she's such a giant in Swedish literature and such a wise woman. I met her a couple of times. She could go very well with that crowd. That was an impressive

dinner party. Before we let you go, two remaining questions. Tiger or When I Kissed the Teacher? Or. I have to choose one of them. Apparently so. When I Kissed the Teacher.

Why? Because I like that song more than I like Tiger. Fair enough. But Tiger is a good song too. Fair enough. When I Kissed the Teacher is... I had a teacher once, and I had a crush on her.

So I imagined what it would be like to actually go and kiss her, what that would have been like. So that's what I write about in When I Kissed the Teacher. Last question. Did you ever see the French and Saunders Abba sketch? Yes, I did. It's hilarious. Okay.

Yeah. They were dressed up. I love that. The only thing I don't enjoy so much when people are impersonating and doing ABBA is when the tribute bands do Scandinavian accents. Because you don't really... Because we don't have Scandinavian accents. Because you don't really... Because we don't have Scandinavian accents.

Or not as pronounced as they do. That must be amazing. They be... Hurdy-gurdy like that. Hurdy-gurdy. And I get offended by that. Well, that's really good to know because all the ABBA fans that are listening

that potentially are in tribute bands, now, just please, we've always told you to give it a rest. The King's English. Okay, thank you. Is tribute bands. Now, just please, we've always told you to give it a rest. The King's English. Okay, thank you. Is what goes. We have one last question for you. Hmm?

I mean... I can't really imagine that you do this. Can I have a little more of that? Oh! I'm so happy. You've made me so little happy. Just a tiny bit.

Do you want to take some on your flight? No, no, please. It will be all mushy. Don't give it to me would you like a few raspberries with that he's got no i got raspberries and mascarpone mom last question do you like it okay does he oh she's oh you know he does he's had seconds on both yeah good um i don't imagine you do karaoke but if you did which if you like it, which song would you choose to sing? Can't be one of the ABBA songs.

Well, it can't. No. Because I'm a coward. You're going to have to do two now. You're going to have to pick your ABBA song, but also your non-ABBA song. Which is the easiest song to sing as a karaoke song, an ABBA song. Or fun. But I'm a coward, so I would do That's Your Mother Now,

which is the one I do on one of the albums. So I'd sing that one. Other than that, I would do something very simple. You mean a pop song? Do you ever go to karaoke? No. Is it popular in Sweden? Yeah, I think it is.

It's popular everywhere. I went to karaoke once in Beijing because the guys in the band wanted me to come down to that karaoke bar because they had ABBA songs and they had the most crazy thing of writing them down they had written the lyrics down from hearing them so

they showed me the winter takes it all the winter takes it all no but that's as close as I've come to karaoke but what would I sing I would sing Ticket to Ride.

Oh, it's a good song. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming over. It's been fascinating and wonderful to meet you. Thank you for a great chat. And to hear your stories. And also, best of luck with, well, Abba Voyage sold out all the time.

It's going so, so well. And hopefully it will be here for the foreseeable future. I hope so. And then best of luck for Radio 4, guest edit. Fantastic. Thank you very much. And it's been a pleasure to be here. And glorious food.

Oh, God. Yeah. Oh mum he was fantastic Gosh such a lovely interesting man You know when I gave him the tea towel he was quite confused, I think. Why, darling? I was kind of implying that he was going to do the dishes.

I don't know, maybe Bjorn doesn't do the dishes. Maybe he thought he was going to have to wash up. No, but I kind of gave it to him, and he's the most perplexed out of anybody who's been offered. He didn't really know why he was here, to be perfectly honest. He said, I've never done anything like this before. But he ate seconds on both the main and the put. Yeah.

He was having a lovely time. And I thought he might be a bit tricky about food because he's on some... Anti-inflammatory. Anti-inflammatory diet. But he didn't. But he'd been in the gym for an hour. Wish I had.

I really... Look, thank you to everybody that sent in questions. It was... This was a pretty special episode, so forgive us foodies for not making it all about food today, but we had kind of musical... It was so interesting. ...royalty.

Yeah. We feel very honoured that we had Bjorn in the building today. Like the food. Love the food. Seemed relaxed. Asked for seconds. But asked for seconds. I didn't even offer it.

And made some very sexual noises when he was having that first taste of the blackened chicken. Did he? Oh, yeah. We can make a remix out of it, I think. Right. Anyway, thank you so much.

And thank you for listening. Thank you for the questions. And I think I'm on cooking duty next week. Thank you for the music, Bjorn. See you soon.