Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware - S15 Ep 13: Alison Roman

Episode Date: May 17, 2023

Our cooking inspiration… Alison Roman on Table Manners this week! The two time bestselling author and New York Times cooking columnist talks to us about her journey on becoming the queen of home cooking! We talk about why she moved to New York, starting out as a pastry chef, eating artichokes in California, her mum's Garlic Butter, the reason she’ll never open a restaurant and why Balsamic is over…She talks us through her perfect and quite literal ‘nothing fancy’ last supper & tells us why she doesn’t read cook books.Buckle up foodies.. this is a goodun!Alison’s latest and totally delicious book ‘Sweet Enough’ is out now Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Table Manners. I'm Jessie Ware and I'm here with my mum. Hi. When she decides to sit down. Yeah, you comfy? I can actually, you probably can't. I actually can, thank you. Yeah, I had a colonic today. So sue me.

Dolly, I'm embarrassed for you. I've just come back from a very lovely holiday in Cyprus where I, you know, indulged and I needed a reset and I thought a clonic would do that. I don't know if it did. Jesus. Didn't make me feel like Cindy Crawford when I came out. But I'm off the booze tonight. Anyway, how are you? I'm okay, actually. It's been the most beautiful sunny day. Feeling pretty perky. A little bit tired now. Perky? Yeah, a bit tired now. You're very excited about this guest, as am I. More excited than I think I've been about anyone. Tell everybody who we have on the podcast. Well, if I say nothing fancy or dining in, who would you think of, Jess?

Well, I know who that is. It's Alison Roman, one of our favourite chefs. We have been cooking for everybody. We cook for Catherine Ryan, a whole meal. Yeah. Rose Matafair, who also loves Alison Roman. My sister, when I told her that we were doing Alison Roman tonight, she said, Jessie, where were you in 2019?

Yeah, where were we? I don't know. Don't know either. I think we were tackling an Ottolenghi vegetarian dish. Also, lovely Marina Murphy, who lives in LA. Yeah. At her book launch last week, because she loves her so much. Everyone loves Alison Roman.

If you don't know who Alison Roman is, she is a chef. She has written for Bon Appetit. She has her own YouTube channel. She's written for New York Times. She has worked in some of the most amazing restaurants. She is the shit. But also, she writes the most accessible cookbook she'll ever read. That everyone can do something.

She might say nothing fancy, but it turns out really super duper fancy and gorgeous. It's really, really our kind of cooking. If you like the podcast and you like what we cook, well, a lot of it has been Alison Roman recently, but also it's exactly how we like to cook. I was nearly going to cook from her cookbook today because I love all her... Well, only because I like all her recipes so much. Well, tell us what you are going to cook from her cookbook today because I love all her, well, only because I like all her recipes so much.

Well, tell us what you are going to cook instead. So I'm cooking from a cookbook called Right Fix by Yasmin Khan. And it's recipes and stories from the Eastern Mediterranean. I really love it. And so I'm cooking chicken in pomegranate molasses with sumac. Yum. Looks a bit barbecue-y. And actually, I'm sure it's been marinating for a whole night.

A whole night? Yeah, I did it last night when I got in from babysitting. Well, thank you for that, Mum. Yeah. And I did catch my finger in your back door. Oh, Mum. Yeah. Drove me.

Yeah. Good thing I I made I cooked for you yesterday yeah you did it was delicious darling um so we're doing that and then what are you doing for sides well I'm doing a version of my shot carrots which aren't really shot carrots but it's from the bevel cookbook where you put the you boil the carrots then shock them by putting them in cold water so you and I call it shock carrots I'm doing the warm aubergine salad that I've done before because I thought it would go and I've made a version of bejeweled rice I don't know what it's going to be like and you've complained that it doesn't need to be green it needs a herb on it what's in your bejeweled it's cardamom cinnamon stick um bay leaf cumin and fennel seeds wow some onion yeah orange peel there are dates in there orange peel there was some

little bits of cranberries and some apricots cut up and pomegranates pomegranate seeds later it looks very nice. I just think it can have a bit of green on it. Okay, I'll put the green on. And then what have you done for pudding? Well, one of those things that come up on Instagram, I thought that looks lovely because I do like coffee desserts. And it's Nigella's Cappuccino Pavlova.

So it looks like coffee. It looks like a cappuccino, the exact color of a cappuccino and then you put the cream on top and some cocoa but i've put some grated dark chocolate on the top yeah because we fancy yeah um alice and roman coming up on table so excited Alison Roman, you are here. I'm here with you. You are here. I'm so happy. Looking fabulous.

Oh, thank you. Bit sad you're not cooking tonight because you have been... A big inspiration. A big inspiration for this, like, the last two seasons. Also, it's been this wonderful... Well, this is the best thing about a great cookbook. It's been an awakening. It's been an awakening, but it's also been wonderful... Well, this is the best thing about a great cookbook. It's been an awakening.

It's been an awakening, but it's also been totally how I love to cook and how all my friends love to cook. So it's been this thing of, have you got nothing fancy? Well, no, we'll go and get it. Oh my God, have you tried the slow roasted tomatoes and chicken? Do it. It's so easy. People were so excited when they saw that on your podcast. They're like, oh my God.

I'm so excited. And I mean, then I was excited, but like the people generally were like, the people really love to see that. Well, this is, we're giving the people what they want. You're in Clapham. Yeah. My, were you in LA yesterday? It feels like it, but no.

No, because my friend went, my friend's daughter went to your book launch last, was it? Last Monday. Last Monday. that's right and she was so excited but i must tell you you're one of the few people whenever i say alison roman and i think they won't know her you know she's american i think this is gonna be a compliment and then someone said to me i cooked from them last night from dining in and I said Jessie have you got dining in she said no I haven't got it I've already ordered it because he did something like chicken with paprika and lime oh yeah that one's really good cook for Graham paprika and

lime and he said it's the most delicious thing in the world it's very good it's like basically slow roasted like the tomato one yeah but different and in dining and i take the spine out like a spatchcock it uh-huh and then it just gets rubbed with like grated garlic olive oil smoked paprika and i think fennel seed yum and then it's like 325 for two and a half three hours whatever but i cut up whole lemons uh It's excellent. It's a very, very good chicken. Chicken is like my favorite thing to write recipes for because it is the thing that I want to eat most often. Well, it's a good thing because you're having chicken tonight.

Oh, perfect. It's not going to be slow roasted though. That's okay. And it doesn't have an anchovy in it, I'm afraid. That's fine. I was very curious what, if you were going to like play the hits to me or it's like wearing the band's shirt. It's like wearing your shirt to your own show or something i did nearly cut one of yours i mean that's also i can't

do that so it's from a book which is really beautiful called cooking with figs and it's all it's a lady that's clearly taken a journey around greece syria le Lebanon, all different places. Levant? Yeah, probably. Did you say Levant or Levant? Levant, I think. Levant. I don't know. It's really nice cookbook. That sounds amazing.

That sounds exactly like what I want to eat. So it's chicken with, cooked in pomegranate. And sumac. And sumac. Beautiful. Lovely. Yeah, pomegranate and sumac. And then you've done a bejeweled.

I did a bejeweled rice. Stunning. It's fine. No, I love it. And then shocked. Have you been to bevel in la yes right so it's a version of their carrots but i love it when i just says what are you making i say shocked carrots you boil them and then you put them in cold water to shock them it's with like yogurt and tahini and you should have had dill but we don't have dill so i'm sorry no dill

how dare you that's okay that's okay i don't need dill, so I'm sorry. Oh, no dill. Interesting. I'm just kidding. How dare you? That's okay. That's okay. I don't eat it every day. And also- I'm in a bit of a break. I do need to know, because we've also got pudding, but I know that you've got a reservation. So, well, I don't know if you're meeting friends.

I told them I'm eating here with you. Are you sure? But you are going to quite a good restaurant. So, I feel like you may need to- Are you going to a restaurant later? Oh, yeah, but it's- Where? Which one?

Kiln. Kiln. Which is a great restaurant. It's, yeah. Where? Which one? Kiln. Kiln. Which is a great restaurant. Thai food. It's like grilled smoky Thai. I'll give you a kind of philippa-sized portion so you can kind of, you know. I have such a, and I, this happens in New York a lot, where if I go out to eat with people who are not eating as much as me, I'm like, what's wrong?

I'm like, you're not eating. I clock it. I notice. And I'm like, what's happening here? Why are we not eating the same amount of food? And why is it usually? Is it because you've eaten all of it? Because you're not like i clock it i notice and i'm like what's happening here why are we not eating the same amount of food and why is it usually is it because you've eaten all of it because you're greedy like me because somebody's like not eating at the time or something oh something's up i'm eating mom i'm eating i'm just not eating bloody raw carrots because i had a colonic i'm sorry we i'm sorry this should really be on video or the this is the dynamic is unbelievable um better than anyone

thinks it is anyone at home listening thinking how wonderful you two are in person is just so much better okay thank you yeah exceeded expectations somebody shut Lenny up on Netflix yeah right great perfect um so Alison you grew up in New York? I grew up in LA. Okay. Yeah. That's quite interesting to move to New York. Yeah.

Not a ton of people do. And if they do, they always move back to LA. Do you think you're going to move back? Not ever. I'd sooner move to London. I'm just keep taking me east. It's just a, it's just an energy thing. I think LA is great to visit.

I'm grateful to be from there. I have a beautiful understanding and appreciation for produce and vegetables and seasonality and sunshine and et cetera, hikes. But I don't need to live there. And I can always visit. And I do visit often. I'm there often for work. I see my family.

There's always a reason to be in LA. I don't ever feel like I need to live there. Too much traffic. I get really car sick. Okay. Where are you from in LA? The Valley. Like, San Fernando Valley.

So people, which, like, 10 years ago, people were like, what's the Valley? But now everyone's like, oh, I live in Sherman Oaks. Oh, Heim. Heim. Yeah, exactly. And Heim, really, I got a credit for cracking the Valley Code. I feel like listening to them talk about it so affectionately, I feel embarrassed that I didn't do a better job sooner.

You know? Being an advocate of the Valley. Yeah. Yeah yeah I do not not that it's a contest said you left and you went exactly and I'm like I live in people like oh you're from New York I'm like I'm from the valley but yeah but I love California is everybody Jewish in the valley no just we are oh you're Jewish yeah I didn't know that a lot of people are but But no, I weirdly went to a Catholic high school, but not because it was only because it was like the school that I could go to that was in my district for a multitude of reasons. But yeah, my dad's Jewish.

So did you grow up with Jewish food? I did. What was a really memorable dish from your childhood and who was cooking it? It was like less so about cooking. My dad really started cooking, I think, more later in life. Like he cooks often now. A lot of my recipes, which for support, but also I think I'm like, it's like at his level.

And he just has more time because the kids are out of the house and he's like just cooking for him and my stepmom. But growing up, it was like, we would go to Langer's Deli and eat the pastrami. We would go to Solly's, which is like a Jewish deli and have matzo ball soup. It was like the experience

of eating out at Jewish delis. But like, he would always bring home knish that were like frozen in a box and I would just make them constantly for myself.

You loved them? Loved them. Knish are the best. The best. And I mean, now the knish that I get in New York are nothing like the ones

that were in the box. Where do you get your knish from in New York? There's a place called Moishe's but I don't I think they may have closed or they closed but maybe reopened they were next to Russ and Daughters but I think they moved they either someone has to fact check me but I think they either moved or closed or nothing happened and I made this up but have you ever made a knish not ever but I aspire to me too do you think it's hard yeah i do i think it's annoying and i think

it's hard yeah but you're a pastry chef i used to be can you make babka i could i can make babka i can make it that's a bit of a fact to make a babka but it's yeah it's annoying but you know my babka is like not even real because i'm using brioche it's so like i'm not even really doing it i'm sort of you're using a already established brioche no no no like i make a brioche it's so like i'm not even really doing it i'm sort of you're using already established brioche no no no like i make up fine okay but i think traditionally babka does not have butter because often it is kosher okay you cut your teeth with pastry i did so i grew up in la i started working in restaurants there i there's a restaurant called sona closed now. Okay. Now it's like a gentleman's club. Actually, I keep saying it's a gentleman's club.

It's not. It's like a member's club or something called The Nice Guy. Oh, okay. Yeah. In West Hollywood. Have you been there? I have not. Have you been invited to a party there?

No, sadly not. I've seen people paparazzi'd outside. Yes, exactly. Like I think Drake goes there or something. I just assume you're hanging out with him or something. Yeah, people go go to you've never been papped outside you're losing it I never had it to lose so yeah um but I worked as a pastry chef there but the only reason I took that job was because I they were going to give it to me in a restaurant and otherwise there was no job available in the restaurant and it was like a nine-person kitchen.

So it was really tiny. And I was going to go to culinary school. And I said, well, I need a job to pay my way through culinary school. I wasn't really getting any assistance. And so... Was this a first career? Yes. I was 19. So you were 19.

You didn't want to be a nuclear physicist. It was not in the cards for me. No, I'm very smart. I'm not that smart. I'm not smart in that way. That was never going to the cards for me. No, I'm very smart. I'm not that smart. I'm not smart in that way. You know, that was never going to be it for me. But yeah, so I decided to leave college and pursue like working in restaurants full time. And the man who I met at the door ended up being the pastry chef.

He offered me a job and I took it. And he's like, I think I would save your money. And if you, you know, a lot of people that work in a restaurant hate it. It's really hard. You don't make any money. And if you, you know, a lot of people that work in a restaurant hate it. It's really hard. You don't make any money. It's tough. And, you know, rather than go into debt, I can pay you, you know, like $7 an hour and you can work for me and see if you even like it.

And I did. I loved it. I loved it so much. It was so hard, but I like immediately was like, this is exactly where I want to be. It must have been quite exhausting. And also it's a lot of men. Not as many women as the balance. It was a lot of men. Did you like that?

Not especially, but I didn't have any real feelings about it. They weren't harsh towards you because you were a woman? No, they weren't harsher to me than to each other. And I wasn't the only woman. I worked in the department with another woman. And there were at least one or two. It was like actually a pretty high ratio for restaurants. But also, again, small group of people.

But my direct boss was a man. And he was so, such a gentle soul. Still is. He's still with us. Dark. He just was, I think he did, he didn't like actively protect us in like a bullish way. But he was just, you know, as our mentor, as our person. Everyone really respected him.

a bullish way, but he was just, you know, as our mentor, as our person, everyone really respected him because he was so, so talented and so kind that it sort of, you know, bred that sort of treatment, I guess. But despite it being like a fine dining restaurant, James Beard, Michelin star, et cetera, et cetera, tasting menu, it was still like a, a very tender environment. And it was like really learning was the focus. And it was very much like able to learn on the job. Did you have any disasters? Every day. All the time. Is anything like is etched in your mind?

No, I've probably blocked it out. But it was also now at this point like almost 20 years ago. But I find it quite interesting interesting you started in that world but yet your approach with cooking is kind of the opposite of yes it's not meticulous which is what pulls me to you because it's like well shove a few of them in and if you want you know and it's like you know more garlic do this but you know you've got it's very much I love how you empower the the person who's cooking it to be like look you do it this way these are my suggestions it's gonna work I would do this you can do that if you want and I love it and it's like you know even the title is nothing

fancy it's kind of the opposite of what a pastry chef I presume you kind of learn yeah did you reject that world almost I did but I also was learning from people who sort of encouraged a different attitude about pastry who really did treat it like savory food and that like you know you should add salt to your desserts you should cook fruit like vegetables you should make things have texture and like like be as interesting as a savory food and it was a lot of like well what would happen if you made this chocolate cake without the cocoa powder? It's like, I don't know. Let's find out what would happen if you made this cake without raisins and you added this instead. It's like, well, let's find out. So it was a lot

of experimenting and a lot of like openness to ask questions and, and fail and be like, oh, that didn't work out. Okay. Well now we know. So I think in my attitude of teaching is that because I've been doing it for so long, I have done things the wrong way. And in doing that, I can tell you what works and what doesn't. So I know that if you do the slow roasted chicken with the tomatoes, if you do it with fennel instead, it's going to be beautiful. If you do it with eggplant, it's going to be weird, you know, because I've tried all these different ways and different things and I can tell you why I can like, you know, break it down. But most people just want like a few general suggestions on how to mix

something up and some people want to always follow the recipe exactly as written and either work for me so would you say you had a classical training that doesn't sound classical I would say like you have to start from basics modern classic okay yeah in that like I did learn a lot of foundational things for pastry it's like you learn how to make a dough you learn how to cream butter and sugar you learn shoe but things like right but the desserts we were making were not that classical so okay I had that training little later in my career I worked for a man named William who had more of a formal style like a little bit more French a little bit more precise a little bit more French, a little bit more precise,

a little bit. What was the name of that restaurant? It was called Quince in San Francisco. So he came in after I had been there and I was working at Quince as like basically doing the pastry department there by myself with a few other people. We didn't really have a boss. It was sort of like we were just in charge of putting things on the menu. It was very like California casuals, like a lot of galettes and almond cake with peaches and things like that. And then William was hired to sort of level up because they were going to expand the restaurant and have like a bakery attached.

And so somebody who had a bit more knowledge and he was like, it was like layered cakes and like casting with mousse and praline and spraying cakes with like liquid chocolate. It was wild. It was a totally different experience, but I learned a lot and none of that would I ever take with me into my home. But it's sort of like what you do at home is not always what you want to do professionally. And I sort of think like, okay,

well I used to be a professional pastry chef and now I'm a professional home cook. I wouldn't call you a home cook. Oh, I would. Yeah, but you know what you're doing. You're a chef you started you could have a restaurant if you wanted one yeah do you want one I don't want one I never want too much stress they're so tough

they're so especially in the states right now I have a lot of dear friends who have wonderful successful restaurants in several cities around the country and it really hard. It's really tough to like pay people properly, to charge accordingly, not have people bitching about how expensive food is, to have a life, to have the quality be what you want it to be, to train the right people. It's like, it's just a nightmare. So what took you to New York? Which restaurant? Basically not wanting to work at restaurants. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And the absence of love. I had exited a relationship pretty much every time I moved cities. It was because I was going through a breakup.

But I was sort of like, I grew up in California. I worked in LA. I worked in San Francisco. I was 24. I was like, I'm going to move to New York for three months. And then I'm moving back to San Francisco to open a bakery with William, my old boss. I fell in love with New York. And we're still together.

And it was... You and you, you. Yeah, New York and we're still together. And it was. You and you, you. Yeah, New York and I. And I started, I got a job at Momofuku Milk Bar when they just first opened. Yeah, because that was when they were doing the crack pies. Yeah. And the cereal milk. What is that?

I mean, they still are. I think they still are doing all those things. But like that at the time, it was the thing everyone was talking about. What year was that? Yes, 2000 and. That was, I was 24. I'm 37. So math is not my strong suit, but...

2008? I'm like 2003. 2010? 2010. Thank you, producer Alice. Yeah, I guess I moved to New York in 2010. Do you want some more? Yeah, that chucks out.

I've got another bottle here. Yeah, because I remember being in New York around that time. It was like the place to get things we were all just really excited it just opened up it was also when what was it called please don't tell place oh yes exactly it was like around that whole thing and I think like there was just a huge boom in like novelty everything yeah cocktail bars mixology desserts like concept restaurants like kind of had like a energy to it there was no instagram like there was internet was like barely a thing on our phones like i had

a blackberry actually at the time i had a flip phone i had like a t-mobile flip phone um for those of you listening i'm just kidding um it was just such a different i mean it was such a different yeah but think about those places yeah and how it was like if you knew about these places you knew about it was the best kept secret or yeah and I'm so impressed with with Christina Tosi and what she's done and and how she's still doing it it's like she had a vision she executed it and like is doing the thing that she always wanted which was like to expand and have like a big like company and to be everywhere so then milk bar happens and then you start doing some food writing no I I left about a year and a half into it basically I I started there thinking I was just gonna be like a baker during the day

and very quickly she was like do you want a salaried position as like a sous chef basically and here's health insurance and I was like I do need money like I didn't have any money I zero dollars and health insurance was nice and so I said yes I took the job but like I was sort of like this is not why I moved to New York I did not move to New York to continue working at a restaurant or a bar or a bakery or anything like I moved to New York to kind of expand what I could do in like quote-unquote the food world but I never thought oh I'll work at a magazine or I'll write a book like that was never my goal I just knew that I wanted to continue working in food but I knew that I didn't want to like just be making it for strangers but with like with somebody else's vision you know i guess you starting with that

experience of should we try this oh it's not going to work fine forgive me if this is not right but if when i imagine what a pastry chef or somebody that's in they're instructed on how to do a certain recipe and they execute it day after day brilliantly and they're on their station or whatever so the fact that you were immediately your first job into development it makes total sense that you yeah do what you do now absolutely yeah I don't think that I could have been good at it when I started so I got a job as like a basically a recipe tester a bon appetit and all that meant was that somebody would hand me a piece of paper with a recipe on it and I'd make it. That was it. I wasn't like putting my touches on it. I wasn't changing it. I was, I was just testing it. Does it work? Does it work? And then through that process learned what made it work, what didn't make it work. And

sometimes they were translated from like a chef's kitchen and a restaurant to a home cook's kitchen. And I'm like, well, I know that they're probably making this in a nine pan or a hotel pan or a whatever. And I know that when they say that, that's what they're talking about. So I have to account for this. So a pot won't work. It's too deep. I need to make it in a baking dish. Like I felt like I used every ounce of experience, every moment from a restaurant and bakery professionally to like decode and make something work for the home cook because I was like I know what you're saying but the home cooks don't have that so let's make it work for everybody I think there's like this misconception that I started working at the magazine was like all of a sudden like writing recipes and I was the main star and like all of a sudden like nobody knew my

name for two years I wasn't allowed to develop any of my own recipes. I was just there to like learn how magazines work. Back to your growing up, were your parents good cooks? Yeah, they were. Again, my dad really more started cooking now. My stepmom is a great cook, always has been. My mom has always been a great cook. My mom really had like a few of her hits. Yeah, what were the hits?

A lot of like rice pilaf and grilled salmon and asparagus like very californian steamed artichokes a butterfly trout with like garlicky breadcrumbs that's in dining and it's fantastic and that's why i don't have dining in so i need to i've ordered it exactly thank god it's so good so easy and like iconically my mother to do that but would she serve that with she would serve that probably with rice pilaf and asparagus um or a steamed artichoke and you know it was like i think because you know in california it's like oh i grew up like preparing artichokes like can you get artichokes all year because i went with hannah and jonah to houston's oh i love houston i know

oh my god do I love that restaurant. It's his favorite place on earth and we went and they did the most delicious artichokes I've ever tasted. Oh yeah, the grilled ones? The grilled ones.

Yeah. Oh my God. How do they do it? Could you do it? You could do it. I could, they're fussy. They must parboil them. They do.

And then they griddle them and they're in half so they halve them and then griddle. They're either like poached or steamed or something. At Houston's, I'm imagining they're, if I they halve them then griddle they're either like poached or steamed or something at Houston's

I'm imagining if I'm them I'm doing them in like very large batches in the oven the most delicious things I've ever tasted I'm boiling them

until they're done and then I'm grilling them you don't even mind the fuss of them because they're so delicious do they come with a dip? no they're slightly

is it there's like grilled lemon or something I gotta get back to everything at Houston's in like four years. But there's also a recipe for that in Dining In.

Oh, you see? You've missed out, Jess. Yeah, accidentally inspired by Houston's. But I think also just California, I feel like artichokes are the state's mascot. So what does inspire you? I mean, when you come up with something like, well, the one that we Jesse and I know best, which is the, the slow roast chicken with the oregano and the tomatoes, and it works so amazingly. So where did you, where did you get that? Where did it come from?

I don't know. Most of the food that I, the recipes that I develop come from like, what do I want to eat right now? Like what sounds really good to me? It can't, I couldn't write a book in a day. I couldn't even write a table of contents in a day because what I feel like eating is so different all the time. And sometimes it's inspired by a meal out that I have. Sometimes it's inspired by, I'll go to a restaurant and read something on the menu and then I order it. And that's so different than what I thought it would be. It'll just say like, you peas and bottle and herbs and I'm like oh that sounds amazing and in my head I'm like imagining what I would do and how that comes together and what comes and I'm like oh this isn't right and then I feel really inspired to go make a version of like just using those three

words I'm like that feels like now I have a mission to have a. I take pictures of menus and then try and replicate what they've made. That's amazing. No, I would say it's good. It's not amazing, but I find that it's easier for me. But that's what Alison's saying with the words, three words. I think that like, yeah,

and I think sometimes I'll come up with like a phrase or I'll just think of something or two ingredients together. I'm like, oh, that sounds really nice. I've never had that but sounds good allison when you were looking for love and you were traveling all around yeah you see this is why i haven't traveled much jess why you didn't have to look for love i have traveled quite a lot yeah thank you yeah but when you were looking for love i don't think have to look for love. I have traveled quite a lot. Thank you. Yeah. But when you were looking for love. I don't think she was looking for love.

I think she was looking for work. She was looking for work, but she was hoping that she'd find love. I was looking for myself. Oh, you hope you might find love on the way. Mum's turned it into. Which I do love. Mum's here. Stop spoiling it.

Okay. What would you cook to impress? It would have to be like the fourth or fifth date. Oh. Oh, sure. I don't even eat dinner on the first day kissing on the first day i'd rather kiss than have dinner yeah it's true i'm not cooking for anyone and i'm not eating with you on the first date not even at a restaurant get drinks what oh you went you're? Go get drinks. What? Oh, you went for drinks? You're so New York person. I mean, if there's like a dish of olives that appears, like if things go well, the move is on a first date, what you do is you sit at the bar at a sexy little place. You meet for drinks, quote unquote.

If it's going well, you say, oh, should we get a few snacks and see if they can hang? And then maybe there's like a snack moment. But if it's not going well, then you say thank you so much and you leave. Are you a professional dater? Well, not i'm off the table okay so i need a few i think yeah i can i can if you move to new york i can help you okay what have you been returning back to recently kind of whether it's a comfort food or something that you're making that you're like i can do this really quickly and it's really satisfying. Before this book came out, I was in such like a, I was doing so much preparation for the book coming out and like with press and preparing for the tour and planning the tour and all that stuff.

And then I went on tour and now I'm here. And so I haven't been, I haven't cooked anything really that wasn't for like home movies, which we just shot a few of in like, I want to say a month and a half, two months, which is like killing me. Like i haven't cooked in so long but i did just do like a crispy sort of chickpea dish with a lot of herbs as like a thing that i used to eat almost every day i would open up a tin of chickpeas i wasn't cooking them from dry chickpeas crispy well they're not they're more frizzled i call them frizzled i couldn't get you i didn't they didn't frizz for me. And I wonder whether it's because they were too wet and I should have dried them a bit Were you impatient? I don't think they need...

They're always going to be kind of wet. I think that's okay. I think for me, either the heat's not high enough or there's not enough oil. Okay. Yeah. I also find that the quality of chickpea, like some chickpeas that don't have salt and some chickpeas that do have salt, like kind of behave differently when you're cooking them that way. Over the years, I've really noticed like subtle differences in ingredients that I would have never thought

of before. I'm like, oh, why are these not cooking the same? I'm like, oh, because this has no salt added or these tomatoes, these whole tomatoes are in juice, not pulp. And that's why the sauce is thicker or whatever. Like so many small things that you're like, oh, I'm just buying a can of something. It's like everything is really different there's no not a ton of consistency even less so from where I live to where we are now who is your favorite chef not your favorite restaurant but who would you follow and think I know I'm going to be all right when I use that cookbook or if I go to that restaurant because I really love that the way they cook do you even follow recipes you know I don't I don't really read book cookbooks anymore but

there's a chef um her name is Gabrielle Hamilton and she had a restaurant called Prune in New York and it shut in the pandemic but I think it's coming back in like a limited capacity but she wrote that book um Blood Bones and Butter which if you haven't read you must know bones and butter yeah it's a memoir it's i think amazing but when i first moved to new york and i ate at her restaurant for the first time i was like oh my god like this is the kind of cook i want to be this is the kind of chef i want to be i want to eat food that makes people feel like this if i ever had a restaurant i'd want it to feel like this she's i think just think, just really wonderful. She has such a perspective and a personality, and it comes through in every single thing she does. And that is so rare, especially these days. I think most people

feel more comfortable when they blend into something that's already successful rather than being their own person. And she is absolutely through and through her own person. And you can taste it in her food. You can feel it in her restaurant. I just think it's really special. There is a cookbook that exists. It's called Prune. It's written for her and basically for her. It's written for people that are fans of her, for fans of her restaurant.

It's not written for her home cook who's looking to recreate the recipes. Because I think it's basically scans of her notes. But it's really like a beautiful exploration into her creative process. And I just have endless respect for her. You're here in London for what, like 48 hours? No, for a week. Oh, wow. Yeah, I leave Friday.

Let me just hear some more of your reservations that you've got. Okay, so I did, I went to Manteca. Have you heard of it? Oh, it's so good. It was delicious. Yes. Newish Italian spot. Where's that? In Shoreditch. In Shoreditch. How have you been?anteca. Have you heard of it? Oh, it's so good. It was delicious. Yes. Newish Italian spot. Where's that?

In Shoreditch. In Shoreditch. How have you been? Because mom. She's all about it. She's so dumb. I know. I went to Rochelle Canteen for lunch.

Oh, my favorite. Which I love. I love. Rochelle Canteen to me is like, Prune is like the closest, even though the food is very different. Okay. The feeling I have when I'm in both places. Have you been to Topaf Cafe yet?

Yes. Loved. Not on this trip, but I have been before. Okay, well they've just reopened. Oh, really? Maybe you should go there. Yeah, on like a sunny day, which this week, fingers crossed. You can walk down the canal.

Yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah, I loved it there. Yeah. That's a really good idea. Oh, I did Saturday Kitchen. So I was so- How was that? I fell off my chair.

Oh my- On live television. Wow. I bet people loved it. People did love it. The Brits love that kind of shit.. Oh, mate. On live television. Wow. I bet people loved it. People did love it. The Brits love that kind of shit. But like, yeah. I mean, how badly did you fall off?

Like, badly enough to where everyone was like, oh my God, is she okay? Oh, no. But I was. I was fine. I was more just so embarrassed. Oh, mate. And like, I don't get it. Why did you fall off your chair?

It's such a dumb long, it's not even a long story. It's just a stupid story. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought the chair that I was, whatever. There was a chair and a stool. And the two chairs were so far apart from each other. And like when you're at Saturday Kitchen, you're supposed to be sitting next to the person. And I was like, this can't be right. I was like, this chair must be for Matt, like the host, because it's way too far away.

And so I was like, well, I guess I'm going to sit in the stool. Was it broken? The stool was for the wine. And it had three legs and was not a chair. Was not able to support a person. Oh no. Alison, I'm sorry. I just absolutely ate it. I recovered because like.

Oh, but did everyone kind of fuss around you and then it was just more embarrassing? Yes. You needed everyone to laugh a bit. Yeah. And well, they actually, nobody fussed. Everyone's kind of watched it happen. Nobody offered to pick me up or anything which is fine i didn't need help getting picked up that would have been worse but like everyone did it was sort of like oh are you okay i'm like no i'm fine let's move on and then like they wouldn't let me move on oh babe it was

like let's talk about it for the rest of the show i'm really got it happen at the end of the show okay i think they were just like oh this is funny and funny. And I'm like, yes, it's so funny. It's so funny. I want to cry. I'd love to move on, though. Did you cook? I did, yeah. I made some desserts from the book. Okay. So I did like a raspberry ricotta cake.

Easy to make? Beautiful. So easy. Like, no mixing. No mixing. Well, you mix, but you don't need a mixer. But like, you don't need to like... This looks great, Mum.

This looks so beautiful. This looks fab. This need to like... This looks great, Mum. This looks so beautiful. This looks fab. This is stunning. Yeah, very gorgeous, Mum. I'm not panning because your mum makes the jeweled rice. Oh, whatever. I've never made that mistake. Wait, what?

Just have another glug of your wine and then... It won't matter. This chicken's delicious. Mum, this chicken's great. It's really so good. Very,'s delicious. Mum, the chicken's great. It's really so good. Very, very delicious. It's tart, it's salty, it's juicy. Good.

Last supper, Alison Roman. You've got a starter or an appetiser, as you yanks like to call it, a main and a dessert and a drink of choice. She could choose from each of her cookbooks, darling. Oh. I would never. Okay. Are you sure?

I'm positive. Yeah. Because if it's my... Although, it would be very me to pick something that I'm, like, in control of. To be like, oh, my last supper, I'm cooking my... Okay, you can put one of your recipes in. No, no, I don't need to do that. It's honestly going to be, like, a beautiful shrimp cocktail. From anywhere particular?

Like, prawn cocktail? Sorry, prawn cocktail? Prawn cocktail? Yeah, sure. Anywhere that the prawns are good. Anywhere that, like, and the cocktail sauce is really lemony and has a lot of horseradish and Worcestershire. Do you have a prawn cocktail?

I do. Yeah. It's a nothing fancy. Okay. Well, maybe I'll make it. I think you should. Okay. I think it's very good.

Aren't we going for the nothing fancy prawn cocktail? Yes. Okay, fine. Okay, I'm happy. And then like a beautiful steak, like a two inch thick ribeye basted in butter with crushed garlic and lots of herbs at the end and like how rare do you like your meat i like pretty rare me too not like full bloody but i i mean if i'm ordering at a restaurant i say medium rare the greatest shop of my life was going to argent. What happened there? They always go up. It's medium.

It's never got anything. It was really sad for me. It's so upsetting. The best meat and it's well done. And they think you're slightly odd when you say I want it. I know. And you know sometimes like in Mexico when you're there and they do like the sort of like

carne asada and the meat is like so cooked that it's crispy and it's like then oh I love that see that's me yeah because then it's like not about rare it's about texture and like meatiness and saltiness and crispy bits and I support that like if you're gonna cook it cook the hell out of it but if you're gonna cook it for like steak experience I want it medium rare to rare and I want it like a beautiful crust on the outside and like lots of flaky salt on top are you having any condiments with your steak I mean if I get a choice if I if that can happen yeah absolutely I'm doing like uh cream spinach I'm doing like beautiful

little like I think you call them jersey potatoes yeah they're the best yeah like boiled and then like tossed in butter like maybe crushed slightly with like lots of salty salt chives. You can get those nice waxy potatoes in America. They tend to be a little large though. Yeah, but it doesn't matter because gold. Yukon golds are great. Also, we don't have Meyer lemons. We don't really have them in New York.

They're interesting, but they're too sweet for like a baby. Do you say Meyer lemon in any of your recipes? I'm sure you have. I think that there's a few, yeah, where I'm like, this is great with Meyer lemons, but if not too sweet for like a baby. Do you say Meyer lemon in any of your recipes? I'm sure you have. I think that there's a few, yeah, where I'm like, this is great with Meyer lemons, but if not, like regular lemons are fine. So I think you've never heard of it. It's a bit sweeter. They're like, the juice isn't sweeter.

They're just more floral and the skin is very, very thin. So anytime you're doing like a whole lemon cooking, which I do often, it's nice because the white pith is actually pretty thin. Okay. So we've got the main and the starter. And then then dessert is going to be like a key lime pie or a salted lemon cream pie which is basically the same thing with but with lemon salted lemon cream that's in the new book yeah you can make that too no mixer oh yeah you're talking my language you will like the dessert book i think because it is made for people who prefer

to cook and like have intuition and like to kind of be like oh I didn't have this but I use that and I mean this has all been so so delicious delicious mom and like I think that it's like a cook sensibility can take really well to that the dessert book because you're like oh I didn't you know I'm using this instead of that I'm having this fruit instead of that and most of the stuff it's like all you need is a mixing bowl and your hands and like a sheet pan or you know a cake pan or a pie plate like you don't need a ton of equipment or anything fancy and to me it's like they're the ultimate pantry recipes you're like butter sugar flour I did your crunchy chocolate cake from nothing fancy oh yeah that one's so good that is so good it's also flourless good

for passover yes k for p yeah what's your drink of choice my drink of choice is a martini if i'm having one beverage if i'm which how do you take it i take it vodka i used to take a gin if i'm doing dirty it's gin if i'm doing a twist it's vodka but more often than not i'm doing it i'm doing vodka martini twist and olive you do a twist and an olive yeah oh oh i'm doing a twist it's vodka but more often than not i'm doing it i'm doing vodka martini twist and olive you do a twist and an olive yeah oh oh i'm not sure about that it's fantastic it's not dirty it's just the olive and the sheer alcohol so okay interesting quite actual nothing fancy no i mean nothing would be considered and when people ask me this question sometimes i change the answer to like it's like a perfect roast chicken with like a big leafy salad.

Oh, there's a big leafy salad on the table too. With a stick. And what's your dressing? Fresh lemon juice, olive oil, crunchy salt and pepper. No mustard. No honey, no vinaigrette. I don't believe in vinaigrette. What herbs are your favorite?

Why? Hang on. That's a really bold statement to just like whisper. I know. I know. What's that? What did she say? Say it loud.

Say it proud. I don't believe in vinaigrettes. Why? Because I think that it's an extra step that you don't need to do. Okay. And unless it's a creamy dressing that needs emulsification, there's no reason I'm going to take another bowl, mix things together to then pour over something else.

I'm going to take the acid. I'm going to take the lemon juice or the vinegar or the whatever. I'm going to pour it over my greens. I'm going to taste it acid. I'm going to take the lemon juice or the vinegar or the whatever. I'm going to pour it over my greens. I'm going to taste it, season it with salt and pepper. Okay, it's acidic enough. And then I'm going to drizzle it with some olive oil to finish.

And then it's like, everything is well seasoned. I'm not like, how many times have you made a vinaigrette and you're like, oh, it's perfect. I love it. And then you dress your salad

and you're like, why does it taste like oil? Because the oil floats with the thing. It's like imbalanced and you add more dressing and then the lettuces are soggy. It's the worst. And that's, I've never really thought about whether to put the lemon on before the

olive oil. So you'll always put the lemon on before. Well, it's like, imagine like if you're getting ready for bed at night, you wash your face. Imagine like you do, you do your toner and then you do your moisturizer. You don't do your moisturizer, then your toner. Do you think lettuce is that sensitive? Do you think lettuce is that sensitive? Or you put lotion on your hands

and you put it underwater. The water doesn't penetrate your skin. So if you put oil on lettuces, vinegar is never going to get to that oil. This is another great tip. Alison, how many vinegars do you have in your cupboard? How many different sorts?

I have four. I have white distilled yeah one of my favorites red wine yeah which i don't use often yeah white wine i use that pretty frequently and apple cider what about i love sherry actually i have a sherry muscatel is the one that like i put sherry in that one because i didn't have anything else did you like it i really like i think balsamic is only for when you're on holiday, when you're, like, in Venice at a bad restaurant. I said it.

You know what, though? If you're, like, in Modena and, like, going to the birthplace of balsamic and they're, like, doing things well and right, like, of course. But most balsamic vinegar, especially in the States, is, like, caramel coloring with, like, other vinegar added. It's, like, not real balsamic. I've used it and I've noticed it's got kind of it's getting like musty and weird yeah musty and weird because I don't use it very much but your brother does we should go through your pantry together oh my god maybe

that's a new tv show use it or lose it yeah and I just come and clean your kitchen for you annihilate your fucking fridge. Yeah, exactly. I thought I'd found some very, very long grain rice because I'm very keen on Turkish rice. What's Turkish rice? I don't know that one. It's much, it seems longer than normal rice. Okay.

This rice is perfectly cooked, by the way. I'm sorry, you haven't finished. Thank you. No, I wouldn't need to tear it. Jessie, did you? This rice was fantastic. You threw it at me, was it? I made it up.

Shut up, Mum! I put two together. That's going in the new cup, Mum! That's two together, because it was a basic one. You know what I liked about it? I liked how big the orange rind was. Yeah, without the orange rind, it would have been nothing, to be honest. It's also delicious.

We have got a dessert. Oh my gosh, I cannot wait. Are you sure you can do it? Is that a bit like the moisturiser and the toner? If you're about to go to Kiln for starters, you'll do it. No, because they're going to get a head start. I told them I would just come and try. Okay, fine.

Oh my word. So this is not a difficult recipe. Okay, well it's stunning. It's Nigella's cappuccino pavlova. Oh my god. Someone made me a Nigella recipe. Oh, this is nice. Yeah, it's really nice., this is nice. Oh.

Yeah, it's really nice. So easy. Mmm. Mmm. Delicious. I invested in the espresso powder. Did you? I also love your plate.

I love that plate. It's beautiful. Really tiny. Well, that's good, Mum, because it's a bit, like, mmm, nice. Yes, I love the colour. Chewy, delicious, like it. I just wonder whether it feels like it should have another layer to it.

This is supposed to be like cappuccino. Yeah. So just the topping. It's perfect. I love it. But I don't think it could have another layer in, darling. No. I would do a taller layer of cream, maybe.

She said only 300 mils, so I stuck with what she said. Make it five, Michelle. Make it five. Do you like all that new wine stuff the new old wine natural wine but i like all wine i like new wine i like old wine i don't like wine that is marketing itself as like so new and natural that like feels like it's being marketed like a 22 year old the orange stuff yeah and orange wine can be good i think i think it's gonna like go too far people are gonna be like give me the classics again and then then they're going to come back around being like, you know, some orange wine is actually made classically.

It's some of the oldest wine made. But because it's like new to us, we're like, oh, it's new wine. But it's like some winemakers are like, no, this is how they made it like in the BC days, you know, whatever. And so it's perception and branding and marketing. And like there definitely was like a rush to the natural wine world and sometimes I'm like drinking a natural wine I'm like is it natural or is it bad you know and I don't know enough about wine to always know the difference I know what I like so exactly I know what I like and I'm I'm finding myself craving like very like crisp white classic

whites but like sometimes like oh this is a wine made without sulfites without you know intervention it's organic grapes but it's like a classic vermentino or whatever like you know it doesn't need to be branded like a cool natural wine for it to be natural because all wine is ostensibly natural natural do you have an aroma or a taste that's very nostalgic to you i would say butter, probably because it was the thing that my mom used to serve the artichokes with and pour over the trout. So for the trout, you take a trout, you butterfly, you could do with a branzino, sea bass, whatever. And you take breadcrumbs, panko or anything. And you make a garlic butter, like got melted butter, garlic,

pour it over the breadcrumbs with like parsley. I do a little bit differently than she did. But I think this is how she did it. And then salt and pepper and you sprinkle that over the breadcrumbs with like parsley i do a little bit differently than she did but i think this is how she did it and then salt and pepper and you sprinkle that over the raw fish like skin side down and then you broil it so the crumbs get crispy the fish cooks through whatever but that smell of garlic butter and then she would make extra garlic butter to serve with the steamed artichoke so i feel like that that just brings you back to the family yeah like like full fat i think she's salted butter like crushed garlic great cloves. Garlic butter's a great smell, isn't it? Yeah, it's kind of basic, but there was something about the way that, I think because she used a garlic press too.

It was just like ultra. Does she still live in LA? No, I said yes, but she moved to Connecticut like two, like last year. Why? It's closer to you. For her husband. Yeah. Or her husband's from there.

So she, he wanted to be closer to his family. It's new to me to have my mother so close. Yes. Do you have brothers and sisters? I do. We have different moms. So my dad and my stepmom had two kids after my dad and mom divorced. So I have a brother and sister.

My sister lives in California and my brother lives in Seattle. My brother is a great cook, actually. He is like really good at following recipes and kind of doing his own thing with them. But he cooks probably more often than anyone in my family. What would you ask him to cook for you? There's a recipe in Dining In that he really loves. That's like chorizo pasta with clams. And he makes it all the time apparently.

And I think he's like made some tweaks and changes. And I'm like, I'd love to say like, what's your version? Like show me your version of chorizo and clam pasta. It's been such a pleasure to meet you. Oh my gosh. so you're rock and roll food as well you need your own tv show thank you so much you are doing enough anyway but it's honestly it's such a pleasure to meet a chef that i love we love cooking your food you totally i think so many people just love it and enjoy it and you're brilliant and i really wish you all the best with Sweet Enough. Thank you so much.

And also you've got this thing that everyone feels they know you. So whenever we mention you, everyone goes, oh, we love Alison Rowland. People feel that way about you too as well, I will say. Just so you know. I mean, I felt that. I was like, oh, I'm going to my friend's house. Well, that was so lovely. Absolute delight. She's rock and roll.

She's no nonsense. She's kind of a perfect New York chef chef isn't she she's just gorgeous brilliant funny bright knows so much about food as well please write into us if you uh is balsamic dead and and are you with allison on the death of vinaigrettes and and do you dress your lettuce leaves with lemon first and then the oil do your tone and then moisturize i've never thought about that maybe i haven't thought about dressing my salad in the same as i do a facial to be perfectly frank well it now makes a lot of sense to me to be honest the thing is though you know how she said you don't want to make a dressing separately and then yeah the salad in france they make the vinaigrette in the salad bowl and then they put the salad in.

Oh. Hold on, Alice. Get on the mic for this. Producer Alice has just stepped up after being very silent and listening to all of us for the cuts. Please do tell us what the French do. So I just have to take issue with the vinaigrette thing. I can't. You were very quiet when she was chatting.

And the whole thing about saying, oh, you don't want to make a dressing on the side and then pour it over in France they make the vinaigrette in the bowl yeah and then they put the salad in and then they toss the salad so you being married to a French man speaking perfect French how would you make your vinaigrette well you'll go fuck yourself Alison Roman vinaigrette Dijon mustard yeah olive oil mix that together first yeah then you put the vinegar in yeah red wine vinegar do love actual vinegar i do agree that balsamic vinegar is dead i i'm kind of with her on that but yeah mine's done all for me yeah okay go on um and then salt and pepper you don't put any um sweetness in it no okay uh you see now

jesse's brother who's the king of salad dressing uses half a pot of honey see i don't like sweet vinegar he loves it there's too much okay so i don't use when if i'm at home i don't use vinaigrette at all i'll just put a little bit of olive oil and a tiny bit of maybe balsamic or lemon juice i I like putting mayonnaise in mine sometimes. Oh, Jessie, you've gone... I do like her herby salad that's just lemon juice, olive oil and salt and pepper. I agree.

That is really good. She's really good. But I do think vinaigrette does have a place. But you were very, very quiet when she said that. And I think, you know... She was so adamant about the whole thing. I don't think she spent a lot of time in France. Thank you so much to Alison Roman roman for coming over and before your many different um and she didn't make me feel like

she didn't want to be here like she was very much like yeah it didn't feel like she was about to go she missed paul mescal to see us she missed paul mescal for us so there you go um loved meeting you completely inspired by your recipes please go and get you can either get well the new book's out now it's called sweet enough just like lenny and um if you don't if you don't fancy the sweet one you can try dining in or nothing fancy they're all bloody great um sweet enough out is out now and actually that could save us for many of these podcasts not knowing what to do for puts thank you alison roman we'll see you very soon and i really would like to hear from you about this uh ongoing salad um some mickle not or yeah just i need

to hear from you guys i need to get your opinions on this matter thank you Thank you.