Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware - Second Helpings - Dawn French

Episode Date: August 14, 2024

We’re back with another Second Helpings episode! As you know - mum's chicken soup only comes out for the big guns and this week's guest was no exception. Soup was demanded and joyfully served for the brilliant Dawn French to commence an evening of intriguing and confessional conversation. A fellow foodie, Dawn told us all about what makes the Cornish pasty, her favourite eating spots in Cornwall, making ‘breakfast cake’ in lockdown and her experience of boarding school dinners and butter. We talked about disastrous auditions, a shared love of Drag race and falling in love. What a delight it was! Next week's episode is with a father and daughter duo extraordinaire! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Table Manners Second Helpings. We've got another old guest of ours that came round for dinner back in 2020. What a treat it was to have Dawn French. She came over with her husband for Friday night dinner with a special request for chicken soup with matzo balls. Which you delivered on. Yep and we did the trusty old chicken with apricots and dessert was fig and almond tart. Yum. She came over to talk about her latest novel at the time, Because of You,

and it was the first book I'd read of hers and it was wonderful. She's actually now got a new book out called The Twat Files and I can't wait to read it this summer. And she's also touring. Huge Twat, the UK tour, has its last few dates in September.

So go see her. Dawn French is in our house on Friday night. Yeah. She's requested the chicken soup. We're going to deliver it. And you're sitting here having champagne with us and we're toasting your book yeah thank you

which I finished today just let me know how many minutes is it to the chicken soup I just need to know do you need it no no no I'm just checking

just give it to me as a motivation it's ready I'm just going to start I'm going to put the heat underneath it okay so it's within are you hungry

I am hungry but let's talk first let's talk first we can talk for 20 minutes. All right, all right. Oh, that's fantastic. Oh my God, this is like when I deny my daughter the biscuit after dinner.

You have to wait until you've done. You have to drink that glass of champagne before you get your ticket. Yes, champagne, cheers. Cheers. So I finished it today. Did you? I had a lump in my throat oh good the

ending the ending and we can't give the ending away sadly but it's quite a big twist at the end and it was it was really beautiful and really touching and moving and i was gripped it was real page turner good so um it's the first book that i've read of you yours i'm so sorry but i really it's not compulsory obviously i, I respect you slightly less now. But that's okay. I haven't even started it. Your choice if you want a less rich life. Okay, so which one would you say I should read next?

Well, isn't it weird? Because I would always say start with the autobiography. Okay, fine. Which is called Dear Fatty. That would have been helpful for tonight too. Well, yes and no yes no it's quite it's actually sort of out of date now because i've finished it lots of years ago so i've had you know a whole new chapter since then but um that's always a good starter and i wrote that really because somebody else wrote a book about me and i don't know if you've ever experienced this but What a bloody no. But it is very... I can write a book about you tomorrow, if I like.

Anyone can write a book about you. And it's up to me how precise it is and how accurate it is. And it's a very odd thing to be... It feels like you're being bullied. And so the woman who wrote the book is a very bad journalist. Do you know her? I don't know of her. Was she obsessed with you then?

No, I think she'd done this before. She'd written books about other people. That was her income was to write books about people without their permission. The unauthorized, you know. Oh, yeah. But what she did that was not okay was that she started ferreting about in my daughter's biological mother. She started that kind of stuff. I had to you know take some serious action to stop that happening and really because she wrote this very inaccurate very badly

written I have to say but that's just my opinion but inaccurate book full of inaccuracies that upset my family such a lot so I thought well as an answer to this sort of in revenge I better write I better write the story myself I can write it better than this so I came to writing that autobiography not really the best way I was pushed but while sitting down and writing it which I thought was going to be like homework um I just thought oh I really like this I like writing this is good before that I hadn't written a book before that I'd written a lot of work that I've done you know a lot of sketches and of course stuff like that but I hadn't written anything like this so did you know you had a book inside you well do you know or two or three or four how uncomfortable it is to have a book inside you

um but I no no do you know I was so busy doing everything else, I didn't really think about that. But what I did discover when I started to write was that it was quiet and just me on my own with my own head. Did you write being on your own with your own head? I mean, you know, what I think I've discovered about myself through writing is that I'm a kind of functioning introvert that's who I really am now I know people are very surprised by that can you yeah good because I think a lot of extrovert people are not really I'm a functioning introvert as well darling if you if you were given a choice of whether being of being quiet and maybe only your own

family around you or lots of people in a huge social life what would it be and you are not and that is where you are not a functioning introvert mum you were hosting my birthday last night like this with a glass of champagne and you were telling the cat i prefer to be with you and my close people i found it very difficult in lockdown being on my own. Oh, did you? I like living on my own, but not having social contact with people. So you're not a functioning international. I'm not a functioning international.

Basically, what we're concluding is you're not a functioning international. All right, then. She's not going to let you have that one. But you've got your husband there and your daughter. Yeah. But they understand me, that I'm quite hermit-y, actually. But most of my life has been about, you know... Being out there.

Well, and being in collaborations, being in a double act, being in a group, being, you know, a bit jazz hands. And don't get me wrong, I love that part, but really I'm very at home on my own with the door shut writing. That is my biggest love. That's my biggest love.

And I came to it quite late by writing that autobiography. Has it been harder to go back on the stage since becoming this writer and understanding yourself better? Not really because exactly that and I think that the more I spent time on my own although I'm not entirely on my own because I'm with all these characters in my head um and I'm with my actual family but um the more I did that the more I thought I need little pools of showing off you know I need to go out and connect with other people as well I need to do this other part of my life and luckily for me um both things happen you know I can do a bit of theatre I can uh be in a

tv series or I can do something on audible with with Jennifer or, you know, whatever. Luckily, I've got those choices. I mean, obviously, when the lockdown came, that was a bit scary. I was in Cornwall. And in fact, I was writing the second draft of that book, which I was due to be doing then anyway. So pretty much all the way through lockdown, I was having the normal work life that I would have. You know, there wasn't anything very different in that way,

except for that my daughter, my stepdaughter, came to live with us. Son was out the road with his girlfriend, but not very far away. So I carried on doing my normal job during that time. So in a way, that was helpful because it didn't feel too weird. But what did happen, like for a lot of performers like me, and maybe this happened for you as well Jess I don't know is that there was a day when I thought 18 months of work has just disappeared because theatres are shut and you know I was due to do a bit of theatre work and I was due to tour

had it been announced yet yeah hadn't been announced yet but it was all you know in the diary and I knew what was going on, knew my mortgage was paid, knew that, you know, all the things you do when you plan your life. And if you're self-employed and you work in the arts, you put your life together like a jigsaw, don't you? And you're lucky that it comes together like that. But suddenly I thought, oh, my Lord, this is odd. This is really frightening, insecure, strange time. But writing was a real anchor for me to something

that I love to do that was supposed to be doing anyway it was a calming and good and gradually things have clawed back obviously we're still waiting for theatres to open up but yeah you know like everyone with these discrepancies I can't understand why you're allowed in on a plane and not allowed in a theatre it just doesn't make any sense to me or you're not allowed on a plane and not allowed in a theatre. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Or you're not allowed at a football match, but you're allowed in the theatre or cinema. And a football match is open air, which I don't understand. Yeah, that's very odd. Do you go to football?

I love football. Do you? Who are you on team? Manchester United. Okay. Like Dawn should know that, that you're from Manchester. Sorry, I'm from Manchester. Are you?

Yes. Okay. Manchester's having a horrible time at the moment with all of this. Horrible, and I feel very sorry for... I feel sorry for... You've got a family there? Yeah. Well, only my cousin.

That's where I was brought up. But I feel very sorry for people in Manchester because I think it's not terribly clear. And I think Andy Burnham's fighting for them so they get proper, you know, compensation. Yeah, well, he's a ferocious advocate, isn't he? Yes. And Marcus Ruff... Jennifer is a giant Manchester United fan. Is she? She is.

I didn't know that. She is. Yes, she is. And she gets a lot of stick for it. Why? Because Manchester, as I understand it, I'm not a football expert. No, I know what you're going to say.

But I think because they're big and famous and she doesn't come from Manchester. Do you know, Jennifer is, like me, from a forces family. So she's travelled around a lot, but they ended up near Manchester. They ended up in Cheshire. Oh, that's it.

So she does have connections there. But she's got a good line and you should get her on to talk about it. She's got a good line in deflecting any of the nonsense that comes with that. Yeah. So growing up yeah forces family you were traveling about quite a lot all the time sometimes every three months sometimes

every six months sometimes every 18 months usually maybe two years would be the longest you stay anywhere so i went to something like i can't remember exactly now but it's something like seven or eight different junior schools oh junior schools and then when it comes to secondary school you end up in boarding school but for my family that was amazing an amazing opportunity because A they couldn't afford it

to send us to boarding school this is posh they would not have been able to afford that and the forces pay for you to go because you have some kind of constant in your life if you go there. I'm going to go a bit slowly here. Oh, with the drinking? Sorry, we're not going fast enough here, Annie. I'll really try to go.

I'm a bit alcoholic. So, yeah, so I went to boarding school and was there with a lot of posh girls. Where were you? In Plymouth. But a very sweet boarding school, I have to say say I've still got very good friends from then so you're very you're very committed to that part of west country yeah well my that's why my it's very odd for me because the Tamar River divides Cornwall and Devon yeah and it's a bit like the Lancashire Yorkshire

divide you know there's quite a lot of rivalry yeah And I have a lot of family from Devon, from Plymouth, but I also have a lot of family from Cornwall. And some of the people in Devon would never dream of travelling across that bridge to Cornwall. They just wouldn't do it. It's mad. And why would you do it? Why would you go there?

It's a good bridge to travel. On the train, it's great. Lovely. The Brunel Bridge, it's wonderful. But, yeah, I've got family that just will not come into Cornwall and I've got family that will not go into Devon. So I'm sort of, I'm always a bit scared to say that I'm Cornish or from Devon because when my brother got married, right,

he married a girl from Yorkshire, but they got married in Cornwall and her dad stood up at the wedding and said how delighted he was that she'd married a Cornishman and the Devon lot started to hiss. mean not in a funny way in a kind of bring it on way so he very quickly corrected himself and said oh sorry sorry I mean that you've married a Cornishman uh that we're married a Devon boy and then the Cornish lot started and he's like you just don't go there that's so I just am from the west country you're gonna write a book about this the west west you know it's just part of my family stuff you know half of them are from there and half of them believe me if we need to unite against people from further up we do like london we like london yeah we do

we come together we come together for the football we come together for whatever we need to if there's any enemies but when we're left to our own device, it's like people who live in villages next door to each other, isn't it? We love a bit of, you know, we love to argue with each other. So why did you choose Cornwall over Devon? My heart is there, really. And my mum, sadly, my mum died about eight years ago, eight, nine years ago now but my mom lived in Cornwall and so as I was getting older and as I knew I wanted to write more and I wanted to separate myself away from because I was only living near London because I didn't know London that well I spent all all my adult life in London because that's where college was that's where work

was but I always my heart was always at home by the sea so um I knew I'd go back down there eventually so I did 16 years ago I went back down and did your kids go my daughter came with me um although she was at various schools at that time uh but she came with me and then I got divorced and then I chose to stay there um and then I met a Cornish man. So, you know. You met a Cornish man. Who has a Foy life jacket on. No, he's not.

He doesn't. No, it's a Foy life boat jacket. He's a... He hasn't got a life jacket on. He's on the lifeboat, yeah. In Foy. That's so... He volunteers on the lifeboat.

Are you... Amazing. Yeah. You've got yourself a man in uniform i have although the uniform is mainly sort of rubber boots to be honest so when you were hermited away writing your book yeah this book yes yes this very book in lockdown yes who did the cooking did mark bring you little soup songs as you were sitting there he did uh. Although he didn't really stop working because he runs a rehab.

And so lots of people were in all kinds of trouble, weren't they, during the lockdown. And so his rehab closed and he opened it as a homeless shelter for a while. And then he had to kind of help people find homes to be in. So he was going into work pretty much every day. But we did all, there was four of us there was mark and me and my daughter billy and his daughter lils and we pretty much took it in

turns to do the cooking so we had those interesting moments where you know my daughter was cooking um not at all frightening um who doesn't really cook um How old is she? 29. I mean, she does cook. She can survive. Yeah. But she wouldn't be cooking for other people. Certainly not people who wanted to live. And then Lil's, who's actually very good at cooking.

And then Mark, who's really good. And then me is okay. So, you know, we took it in turns. There was a lot of tolerance to begin with. Kindness. Yeah, kindness. All of that.. There was a lot of tolerance to begin with. Kindness. Yeah, kindness. All of that. And we watched a lot of RuPaul. Oh.

Oh. God love it. God love it. It is fantastic. So that was Billy and Nils and I went in the back room and watched it. We had face packs and RuPaul. That was mainly what we did during lockdown. Okay, who's your favourite?

Oh, my God. Queen. I love all of them. Who's my favourite? Should we tell you who we had on? Yeah, actually, I love all of them. Who's my favourite? Shall we tell you who he had on? Yeah, actually, I think they're coming on next week. Next week? We've got Shea Coulé.

Oh, have you? Yeah, he's a delight. Did you like the British one? I didn't watch it. Oh, come on. I don't like bag of chips. I know about bag of chips. Well, when it first started, I thought,

surely it's not going to be as good as them. But it was great. Here's a spoiler I'm going to give you. A little scoop. I'm going to be as good as that, but it was great. Here's a spoiler I'm going to give you, a little scoop. I'm going to be one of the guest judges. That's huge. They did originally ask me if I would be a full-term judge,

but I couldn't. Wow. Because I don't live in London. But I am going to be a guest judge in a couple of weeks. That's amazing. What an honour. They had to stop everything,

didn't they, on the British one, and now they're starting it all up again. Oh, that's an honour. But I think there's going to be sort of perspex between each judge kind of thing. So I won't be able to touch Rue, that's a shame, because I really do want to touch Rue.

I love Michelle Visage. Do you think Rue would let you touch? Maybe. Well, you might have to go into quarantine like the British Bake Off before you go there. You bubble, isn't Michelle? That's amazing. Yeah, you could bubble with them. That would be fun. I don't know, I haven't got time.

I think I'm working up to literally the day before. What are you doing when you say you're working? Oh, lots of things. I'm doing lots of things. Take it from the top. I'll tell you what, I've just finished. Yeah. I've just finished five weeks of filming in Wales.

And this was the first bit of filming I did after the lockdown, where I've played Beatrix Potter in a film that is for Christmas for Sky and my friend Abby wrote this film she originally wrote it as a little 15 minute but Sky liked it so they've extended it and it's about the day that the real

rolled doll met the real Beatrix Potter and this actually happened he was 6 and she was 60. Oh, wow. And he went to her house and met her. I mean, obviously she didn't know she was meeting the future Roald Dahl.

The future fabulous writer. But look how much her writing influenced his. I don't know when the last time was you ever read a Beatrix Potter. But they're dark. They're dark. They really are. I mean, everyone's in cutesy things,

but they are chopping each other's tails off. Mrs. Tiggy Winkle. Yeah, Samuel Whiskers has got a lot to offer. Rats are eating kittens. Yeah. You know, it is dark stuff. Yeah. Oh, was it?

So that was great, but it was five weeks of filming in Wales. Whereabouts? And the reason I thought about it, near Cardiff. Okay. The reason I thought about it is Cardiff but the reason I thought about it because we all had to bubble for that so that we were in what they call soft isolation so

I was in a little cottage and I literally would go to work back to the cottage work back I didn't go home for five weeks didn't we all were tested every 48 hours everybody in the crew. Gosh, you're very COVID aware. Well, they were. It's good, you know, they have to insure it. So, you know, it's lots of money, isn't it? So they have to make sure everybody is. I mean, only the other actors were people without masks on. And I knew that everybody had been tested. They knew that I had. And the crew, all in full PPE.

I know. It was very odd. I saw people for five weeks from there. Whilst we get the old chicken I feel like it's been 20 minutes we've plied Dawn with two glasses

of champagne what are you looking up there at the oven her timer yeah lovely I'm really happy

that you requested chicken soup because my mum's is amazing that's where the love is as far as I know. Any Jewish families I know, that is the... It's like pasties in my family.

If your mum makes it or your auntie makes it, it's, like, bloody delicious, because it's just got love, love, love right in it. Your family make pasties? Oh, yeah. Do you make pasties? I don't. I'm no good at it. Well, I ought to start trying to,

but whilst I've got a mother-in-law, no mum anymore, but a mother-in-law, no mum anymore, but a mother-in-law who makes really good ones. Do you want a new one? That's the ball of two. I'll have two. I'll have two. So what's in the filling of your mother-in-laws?

Well, let me tell you this. Okay. Let's get this right. Okay, yeah, let's do it. Oh, look what's coming towards me. Oh, my God. That is it. There we are.

It's all for the soul. That is good. I hope it is. Oh, God,'s coming towards me. Oh, my God. That is it. There we are. It's all for the soul. That is good. Oh, God, that looks good. The traditional Cornish pasty only has certain ingredients. And if you use other ones, it's not a traditional Cornish pasty. Okay, fine. So that is skirt beef. Oh, okay.

It is a swede or turnip, some people might call it, potato, onion, pepper. Yeah. That's pretty much it. Okay. There are people who claim they're making a Cornish pasty and might do something like, for instance, put a carrot in it. Oh, and that's just not on. That's not a traditional Cornish pasty.

That's not it. So would you be offended if you saw a carrot in your pasty? I'm not offended, but I don't call it a Cornish pasty. What would you call it? Just call Cornish pasty. That's not it. So would you be offended if you saw a carrot in your pasty? But I don't call it a Cornish pasty. What would you call it? Just call it a pasty and say it's exotic or experimental or something like that. Good for you. Yeah. It's like if, well, what would be in there that would be completely wrong?

Well. You see, if there were some noodles in there, that would be all right. That would be okay. That would be all right. We're not a noodle family. A loction family. That would be alright. We're not a noodle family, a loction family. Lotion. Yeah. We're not a loction family. When I first met Len, he had

been looked after in when he'd come to London from the Midlands, he'd fallen in with a big Jewish gang of kids that he'd met. I think it was a nightclub originally. And they took him in and all their mums took him in and they are called the loction gang. And they all looked after originally and they took him in and all their mums took him in and they are called the Loxian Gang. And they all looked after him

and they're still his very close friends and they're my very close friends. Oh, that's so nice. And that's, it's parts of the Loxian Gang that I have spent Passover with in the past.

Oh, that's so nice. Yeah, and that's where I've had chicken soup before. Am I allowed to slurp away at this? Please, slurp away but I am going to carry on asking you questions. Oh, you've got any rules?

Are there any rules? There are no rules. It is eat and drink and tell us everything. So growing up, I want to go back to RAF, moving around all the time. Let's just have one by one. Oh, yeah? You just savour that for a second. Just take that matzo ball in.

It's so chickeny. It's good, isn't it? This is just gorgeous. This is exactly what I want to do. After a week of, I bet you've had a mental week of kind of promo. Oh my God, this is so good. Anyway, yes, yes. So growing up, who was cooking and what were you eating and what was kind of a regular thing?

Growing up, my mum did most of the cooking in our family, but my mum really wasn't a great cook, I have to say. Okay, fine. Didn't believe in salt, pepper, any spices, anything like that. Yeah. Didn't know, I mean, she would call, she would regard spaghetti hoops as foreign because it's pasta. You know, it's like exotic. So my mum overcooked everything.

Every vegetable we had was overcooked, everything. But I loved her food. And my mum especially would make a stew that expanded the food for lots of people because my mum brought up her brothers and stuff like that and that stew was chicken of course bits of chicken and that would be the expensive part then everything else was grated carrot onion grated, just make it big, lots of stock, make it huge. So that food is... Expandable stew.

Yes. I love that. Got very used to having a very full tummy all the time. Does anyone want a pass? Which is why I'm a little fat girl. Yes, please, lovely, thank you. Did you find it hard moving around, or did you quite...

I did. I used to get quite stressed. I would sleepwalk. Oh. Do you need salt? No salt. It's perfect as it is. Thank you. Oh, my God, Dawn, you're the only other person that does this that I know. Well, like, I've never seen a...

You're not Jewish, are you? I'm not Jewish, no. This is amazing. You have spent time with the Lachshund. I definitely have, yeah. That's amazing. I definitely have. Dawn is... I'm crumbling. Dawn is crumbling her matza.

Because I like it to be a little bit soggy. Yes. Lovely. And with the occasional bite of a crunchy bit. Oh, thank you, Lenny, for this. You've had many a chicken soup in your time. You cannot know how lovely that is. Wonderful.

So you used to sleep... And I tell you, cherish your mum's food. Cherish your mum. While you have your mum with you, cherish her and cherish her food. I'm not that old. I know, but we all go up the old step ladder and I miss my mum's food

such a lot, even though it was very bland. She wasn't particularly experimental but it was her food and it's cooked with all the love, you know? Like this is. Fantastic. I mean, how were school dinners at boarding school? Well, I never minded school dinners.

No, me either. I've never... I quite like them. She wouldn't let me have them. Wouldn't you? Because I would have enjoyed it too. I mean, I was... I like school dinners too. I made best friends with the dinner ladies. Oh, God, yeah.

Love school dinners. But it was weird because we were at boarding school. I at boarding school you know so you were there in the evenings and stuff had a few little disasters where at tea time at the end of school day there would always be you could have bread butter jam you know like a sandwichy sort of cakey thing at the end of the day and then you come back and have an evening meal and I remember the very first time I went into the refectory you know age 12 or whatever I was I was so nervous of it all and on the table were white plates with pats of butter that I thought were cheese and it was cold and it was from the fridge it was cut into squares so I believed this was cheese so I just picked it up and ate it and then of course other kids were looking at me like what is she doing but then I had to do we always eat it like this you know

where you have to front it out you just because you've done such a stupid thing but now you have to keep going so yeah I used to eat pats of butter and of course once you've started doing it you're doing it for seven years then no you really committed I kept I kept doing it and convincing people convincing people i could not give in to the mistake that's ridiculous but we were in boarding school in in plymouth in plymouth so cornish butter's quite nice isn't it yeah pretty good but still you shouldn't be just eating it in great slabs to be honest so we've had the we've had the cornish pasties, Bec. Yeah. You must be surrounded by fantastic food. What, down there? Yes.

Yeah, I've had to learn about fish. Really? We didn't really have much fish in my family. I think we're a bit fish afraid, you know, because you have to know about fish a bit, don't you? And I don't think my mum did know, and so I never really used to eat fish, and I would avoid it.

And I did have a horrible incident with some we lived in Cyprus for a while because my dad was posted there and I had some shellfish and my face completely exploded and I had to go to local hospital when I was little so obviously it was off obviously oh you're not allergic I don't think I'm allergic but I do avoid it I do avoid it I've had odd little bits I've had odd little bits. I've had odd little bits when, like, if I went to someone's house and they made lobster and nobody had asked, I'll have a go. And I've been all right. I've been all right.

I think it was just off. So my memory of it is not great, you know, not great. But since I've moved down there and since Mark, you know, he goes fishing a bit and we get fresh fish, I've learned to trust fish a bit more so where are some of your top spots to go and eat in Cornwall oh my god there's so many we've got a great place in our town called Appleton's with a new chef who's come down there and he's opened up and I think he used to work for Jamie who had a place up on the north

coast I'll tell you a place that I shouldn't really tell you about but try not to tell too many other people. And again the clue is in the name. Hidden Hut. Yes! Have you been to the Hidden Hut? I love that place. Which place? Not so hidden now baby.

Not so hidden now. They have feast nights there. It's so good. Oh my god it's so good. Where is it? Is it near Truro? Well, yeah. Is that near you? I'm not very good with your jokes.

Yeah, it's on that coast. It's at Port Scafo, a little bit further on. It's near Port Scafo. It's in the dunes. You park up in a car park, and you have to walk a little bit through some fields. And then you come to it. And it's like a sort of cricket hut. You can go there and get coffee and cake and everything normally and that's all delicious and homemade and lovely but one night a week he will have a feast night so one

night will be a big rotisserie i don't know thing giant thing and then beautiful lobster another night a vegetable his dal though is bloody good. Brilliant. It's a brilliant place. And you all go together. You take your glasses, your wine, your knives and forks and your plates and he just plops it on. It's wicked.

If the weather's nice because it's out in the open. If the weather's nice it's lovely, isn't it? And you've got little candles on the table and flowers and you're overlooking the sea. Another place i can tell you about in cornwall i can't believe i'm telling you my favorite thing because then other people do you want more soup darling do you need more this is all good because i've crunched everything into it now it's delicious is a place called edie's kitchen in a very unlikely little road on the way down to carlion bay and it's just a little row of shops and then there's edie's kitchen and this is a young couple who have opened a kitchen he cooks

she she's front of house and honestly i think it might be the best food possibly the best food i've ever tasted oh really gosh where is that? In Carlisle Bay in near St. Austell. On each step with Peloton, from their pop runs to walk and talks, you define what it means to be a runner. Whatever your level, embrace it.

Journey starts when you say so. If you've got five minutes or 50, Peloton Tread has workouts you can work in. Or bring your classes with you for outdoor runs, walks, and hikes led by expert instructors on the Peloton app. Call yourself a runner. Peloton all-access membership separate. Learn more at onepeloton.ca slash running. Oh, this is so delicious. It's quite yummy, isn't it? Oh, really good.

It's really... Apricots and chicken, lovely. And they're tinned apricots, so it's not even like... It's really easy. That is it. Can I just say, well done for spinach as well. Oh, it's a bit cold. Oh, sorry.

Spinach is... No, why are you saying sorry? It was a bit chilly. I'm telling you, spinach is the king of vegetables. I love it. It's the best, isn't it? Yeah. But it is slightly frustrating that you are promised this bag.

I know, but... And then you get the little kind of... But what I love is you know that the thing that it boils down to or steams down to yeah it comes down to nothing it's so good for you yeah and it's so delicious

how do you do your spinach do you just wilt it I wilt it a little bit with a little bit of chilli oh chilli yeah Mr doesn't like the oil so much

oh did you not like it quite fussing how did you do me wow it was rather good no that's not true she was in rehab no I was not in my family How did you two meet? Wow. It was rather good. No, that's not true. She was in rehab.

No, I was not. In my family, because my mum ran the rehab. Oh, really? That was my mum's work. So my mum was a bit of a social worker, like you. She was. But my mum set up places that women, young women and their kids could stay together while they were in rehab. That was her kind of big thing. Oh.

You keep families together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a place in London like that. Yeah. She mixed her. She advised to the government for a little while about this because it's very successful. But anyway, she then wanted to set up another place, a facility. I think that's the right word.

And she wanted Mark, who was a colleague of hers, to head it up. So when my mum retired, Mark took her job. So he's the chief exec of Hanno's House, which is a charity that helps people with drug and alcohol problems and all the affected others. And I was writing a novel, my second novel, and in that novel I was writing a character that was a bit of a cokehead. And in my family, if you need to find out about serious drug addiction,

you should speak to your mum because that was her work so I called mum who had retired at that point who said to me you need to go and talk to Mark and I thought who's Mark oh yeah Mark her friend her colleague about this time I was single so I've been how old were you just tell me this is nine years ago and I'm 63 now so nine ten years ago so 53 54 so I thought yeah okay I'll go do my research for this book so I called Mark up and I said mum says you can help me talk to some people that have done lots of coke and he said okay and what I really admired is both my mum and Mark although my research was important what was more important was that the people speaking to me should feel safe and protected and happy to talk to me so I loved that

everybody was secure so we go up to his office and he has set up a young man and a young woman to speak to me to answer my questions honestly and help me with my research but in his office right it's hard on on a podcast to explain this but in his office he had a white wall there right and he had a window there and he had put the two chairs for the people talking to me in front of the window so I sat down and they were sort of silhouetted which was not the best way when you're doing research you need to see people's faces and i thought he's done the furniture wrong but i can't really reorganize the furniture he's done this kind of thing did you do it on purpose no it's just the way he doesn't think about it it's not aesthetically connected so anyway they sat there and i was thinking i can't quite see

them but anyway all right they answered all my questions they were lovely helpful after an hour he came in and said well it's a cup of tea or, you know, just sort of finishing the meeting up. And then he sat down in the same place. So he's now silhouetted, right? Did he look good silhouetted? Well, yeah, but I couldn't quite see him. So some would say, yes, very good. So anyway, he's a silhouette against the window.

I'm here with the white wall behind me. And I'm actually thinking, I've done my research. I'm here with the white wall behind me. And I'm actually thinking, I've done my research. I'm ready to go. I'll just wind this up. So you didn't fancy him straight away? Not at all. And I had met him a few times.

He's now covering his face. I know. I had met him a few times. But he's my mum's mate. He's my mum's colleague. He's, you know, in her life. No. Professional.

He was free. He was at that point, but when I'd met him before, I wasn't, so I wasn't looking, you know know okay all of that so he's just a lovely guy just lovely guy helping me out so he's sitting there with the with the window and the light behind him and um i'm literally filling time while i just being polite just going so how's your life mark um in my head i'm thinking not i'm not really that interested but anyway yeah talk if you like um and he starts to talk and he's talking about his children his beloved children who went to live with him in you know when he got divorced and as he's talking about his children no word of

a lie behind him out in the world there was a cloud but the sun came out from behind the cloud and sunbeams like from god came in through the window bounced off the wall behind me back onto him like fellini had lit him oh my god so he's just talking about his kids and i literally go from just listening to oh my god oh my god look at him it was god heaven sent it was like that now my mum of course when i from just listening to... Oh, my God. Hallelujah. Oh, my God. Look at him. It was heaven sent. It was like that. Now, my mum, of course,

when I later told her about this, said, that is your dad. My dad died when I was 19. So that is your dad saying, look at this man. He put the spotlight on him. Honestly, it was really like it. It was like, poof, like that on his face.

Blue eyes. I shouldn't be too nice about him while he's sitting here. I'm never that nice to him. But anyway, it was just like, I thought, God, look at him. Like breath gone. Have to know this man, have to know this man. So anyway, I left there feeling a bit fluttery.

And I went home and I called my mum, who he was a great friend of. And my mum had known him for years, you know, colleagues. And I said, Mum, seriously, I think I'm a bit sweet on Mark so she went no no no no no no no why did she say that? she went I was too young, far too young for you I said how old is he?

she said I don't know how old he is I said well so what are you talking about? anyway we had a bit of a moment and I love my mum like you love your mum and I thought actually if my mum thinks this is wrong I would listen to that anyway I put the phone down, I thought a bit of a moment and I love my mum like you love your mum and I thought actually if my mum thinks this is wrong I would I would listen to that anyway put the phone I thought a bit odd a bit of a strange response but she called me back and she said I'm so sorry about that but he's my friend and it's a bit weird yeah she said but of course you would like him she said to me because after your dad and your brother he's my favorite man in the world oh so then he and i got together and

then sadly my mum died but when my mum was dying she she knew we were together was she young when she died 77 yeah young young but she as my mum was dying she said i can go because you've got him so he's got a bit of a sort of guarantee which is good so you better live up to it mate yeah so that was very touching you know he just put his fingers up at you but it was a really beautiful ending to the story yeah it is yeah but you know how you said sometimes you're not even looking at someone and they're right under your nose oh that is that such a beautiful story are you very in love with your husband, Jessie? Yeah, we've been together since we were teenagers. He's wicked. He's amazing.

He's fantastic. Is he? Yeah, I love him. There must be nothing better. None of our kids have quite settled with anybody yet. They've got nice relationships, but they haven't settled with anyone. I wonder what it's like, really, as a mum. Your only happiness is if they are happy yeah isn't it so

if you know that she's with somebody that cherishes her and looks after her that's lovely that you bring that up because lee in the book yes that feels like a character that's definitely do you know this book jesse to absolutely honest, this book is a complete mother line. You know, I learned a lot from my mother in my, all the way through my childhood. I've been fantastically mothered. I felt safe and held. And although I warred with my mum, I had big battles with my mum, it was in the sure knowledge that there would be peace and forgiveness

and it would be over at certain points you know we come back together and then you have another row and then you come back together um and and we ended up as very good that that rowing bit was mainly in my 20s you know it's that bit where you're sort of allergic to your mum for a while but my mum was on adoption panels quite a lot of her life and she would talk to me about adoption and fostering and stuff so when it came to when I adopted um my daughter you know I listened a lot to what my mum had said and I I genuinely really believe that that your relationship with your mum not that my I mean my relationship with dad was very very important but different your relationship

with your mum is the foundation of almost everything else and if you are as lucky as you clearly are and as i was to have a to be held and scaffolded so well by your mother it just sails you into your life so well and you will teach your daughter that same thing i'm really all about that line through the women in a big way again not dismissing the men but at the moment i'm interested women are the main event Your daughter, that same thing. I'm really all about that line through the women in a big way. Again, not dismissing the men, but at the moment I'm interested, women are the main event. So this book is about mothers, daughters, and that connection, even though there is a, you know, it's a tricky old story, this book.

I don't know if you know about it. No, I do know about it, because Jessie's told me, but she's not told me everything, because I'm going to start it. Okay, yes. Well, suffice to say, it's about a woman who steals another woman's baby. Yeah, she told me but she's not told me everything because I'm going to start okay yes well well suffice to say it's about a woman who steals another woman's baby yeah she told me that so that is like the worst thing you could possibly do however I've tried to challenge myself to write a woman who does that terrible sinful thing for very good reason um and but does not return the baby ever because her need for a daughter is so huge and because she's such a great mother.

And as it happens, the woman that she steals the daughter from is in a very toxic marriage. So in a way, the daughter has been brought up in the right family. But who are we to say who the right family is? It's a moral dilemma, if you like. Yeah, and does the daughter daughter the daughter has a right to know her daughter has a right of course she doesn't find out until she's older when she has to find out and you can imagine finding out something like that about your identity and I'm interested in

those themes of identity like who makes us who we belong to whether you're made of you the the bones and the blood that you're made of or whether you're made of your... What do you think? Do you know, I don't have the answers to it. I've adopted my daughter and I adore her, but I am mindful always of the other mother, who I don't know, but I... Does she have any contact with her? No.

No. No. So, you know, it's like, but someone I'm very grateful to and feel very protective of. And so when that woman I was telling you about who wrote a biography of me, here's me saying I'm not going to finish this, but now I can't. That's fine, darling.

It was a little portion. It just cannot stop. When that woman wrote the biography about me and started to slightly circle around, I just, the lioness in me really came out and it was very difficult you know because I I feel very strongly connected to the absent yeah other mother who is part of our triangle you know yeah and that then that's a very it's an unspoken contract and it's a contract between families that I will always honor and nobody should come in between it it's my daughter's choice. It's nobody else's choice. So I have to take a lot of action to make sure that I don't go any

further. But she's backed off me now, this woman. She doesn't come anywhere near me. Thank God. But difficult. It's difficult isn't it? Because you do anything for your kids. That's your main concern. We become fixings, don't we? Yeah, we do. We do. And I think that

line through mother-daughter to granddaughter, very, very strong. My own daughter's relationship with my mum was so fantastic. And I know my daughter misses her such a lot. It's a difficult old thing, that. But I would rather she'd had it... Yeah, than not.

She had it than didn't have it. Was your mum funny? My mum wasn't the funny one in our family my dad was and I think my brother is quite but my brother's quite shy so I think in our family my dad and I were pretty much the performers if you like but um you're not the jazz hands performers but we would be the ones trying to make the other two laugh so my mum and my brother were more like the audience. And my dad and I were the ones having a gap.

But did you go to university? I went to drama college. Oh, you went to drama college. To Central, but to train as a teacher. So that's where I met Jennifer. Were you both training as teachers? Yes. We have absolutely no drama training whatsoever,

which I think is patently obvious if you've ever seen us try to do any acting. Well, I want to know when you knew you were funny. I think it was a really natural thing. In my household, especially with my dad, rather than any corporal punishment or anything like that, we were never hit or anything, but my dad would be a

little bit funny sarcastic so my dad would say things like oh i think we all need to stop and listen to dawn because she's the one being a bit the loudest at the moment so everybody needs to be quiet and we're obviously we all need to listen to dawn and so you would be told carefully you know funny way you're being you're showing off a bit and you're being a, carefully, you know, funny way, you're showing off a bit and you're being a bit loud. But you get it. It's all done with the funnies. So it's all acceptable.

It's all fine. So I guess in my household, that was going on all the time. But we also all shared a similar sense of humour. Like you do in families. You have your own little codes, don't you, and your own running jokes and stuff. Like we all love Morecambe and Wise. A lot.

So, you know, and that was in the days when you only had a couple of channels, so you would all sit down together and have that shared experience of it. And it was just such delight. And I love Monty Python, and my family loved Monty Python. So we'd repeat the Monty Python jokes. You shared the same sense of humour. Exactly.

So I don't know if I ever sat back and thought oh I'm funny I just knew our family was quite funny and that things were handled difficult moments were handled with with humor do you think you needed Jennifer to be able to bounce your funniness off do you know the funny thing is that Jennifer's dad was also in the RAF like my dad and actually i found in my life i gravitate towards people that are in the services because it's quite hard to explain it right to people you know the constant traveling and they're looking for new friends and the slight anxiousness that you get and the nomadic thing and you what you tend to do

as a kid is you put on you're very worried about going to another new school. And often at that school, they've had kids from the forces. So the local kids don't really mix with you because they know you're going to be gone soon. Yeah. So you gravitate towards other forces kids and you put on a bit of a personality fireworks display just to make sure people are nice to you. So when I met Jennifer,

it was a bit coming home because she was also an RAF kid. And in fact so much so that Jennifer had lived on the same RAF camps as me but not at the same time and at one point Jennifer's best friend was a girl called Camilla Leng and then Jennifer's family moved on from that this is when she was about nine she moved on from that I my family moved into that camp and Camilla Leng became my best friend. How funny. It's like that. Are you still friends?

I don't know her anymore, though we did contact her. When we first realised it, we contacted her. And she was an army kid. But, you know, yeah, she'd been Jennifer's friend and she'd been mine,

but she didn't know then, did she, that there was a kind of contact between all of us. But my love for Jennifer and my very visceral connection with her I think is born of this life that we shared, that experience that we knew together. And because she's just lovable.

She's a great person. We're on to our last course, which takes me on to... Courses, courses. I know. Only for the really special ones, Dawn, they get three courses usually. It's one and a half.

The chicken soup was the... We pulled out the start, Dawn. Only you and Gemma. I thought that's all it was going to be. I filled up on that. This is amazing. I'm going to explode. We can give you a portion, too.

But last supper, starter, main, pud and drink of choice. Some people have a whole day of meals. But you don't have to. You can do whatever you like. Well, of course, you know, starter, main, pud and drink of choice. Some people have a whole day of meals. But you don't have to. You can do whatever you like. Well, of course, you know, the point is if it's your last supper, you want to take something that takes a long time to eat so that you buy more time. But I'm going to forget about that.

Starter, I think... I think the starter would have to be maybe a mackerel pate. Ooh, nice. But on a cracker, not on bread, because then I really would be, like I am now, utterly stuffed. Like a little cracker. Little, yeah. Nice little...

Even a bit of matzo, actually, that would do it. So that would be the starter. The main course would have to be, I know I'm repeating myself, but it'd have to be a pasty. Okay. I would honestly eat one every day till I died if I could. Do you have any condiment with it?

Or is that like saccharine? I mean, that's just not what you do. You might have a bit of ketchup. Okay. What you don't have is, you don't have salad and you don't really have beans. No.

No. Some people might. I wouldn't object have beans. No pickle? No. Brancel's pickle would work. No, can I just ask something? Some people might. I wouldn't object to that. No. What makes the little hot thing in the pasty sometimes? What do you mean? Which little thing is that? Sometimes when you eat a pasty, there's a slight spicy pepper.

Oh, hot thing. I thought you meant a physically hot thing. Oh, no. It's white pepper. White pepper. White pepper. And do they put a lot on it? Yeah.

Okay. That's it. Some people will put a little on it? Yeah. Okay. That's it. Some people will put a little dollop of clotted cream in, just that will melt. That would be very nice, yeah. But that is a traditional Cornish dressing. And is it a different... Crimping on the side.

Do you like the water pastry, or do you like puff pastry like Greg's? Well, this is where... Sorry to be... No, this is where we all... We have big differences. Big's would have a different pastry to me. My mum, I would have my mum's pastry.

And I actually have to say the last supper would have to be my mum's pasty. Second, you know, on the reserve bench is his mum. Fine. On the third reserve bench is from the Butcher in Tower Dread up the road. Fourth reserve, I know a lot of pasties. Oh my God. It would be Ivery dudney's pasties that are made in plymouth so that would be the main cause but i'd be quite full by then yeah

don't forget about that quite tempted you're hungry okay i've got eight stomachs five hours all right okay probably the pudding might be a tiramisu oh great choice great love it where do you get it from is there one that that you... No, I can't. I did, during lockdown, I did follow a recipe. And it was online. It was just a lady. Just a lady online. And did you use ladies' fingers?

Yes. Dipped into Kahlua or whatever. In coffee, actually. Coffee. Just in coffee, yeah. Any liqueur in there? There was brandy. Brandy.

And creme fraiche mixed in with cream. No, it should be mascarpone. Mascarpone. You're absolutely right, Lenny. Well done. Definitely not creme fraiche. Not creme fraiche. Look, just erase that.

Try and forgive me. Because you can't get past it. Because you have to put that with egg. You're right, mascarpone. And you have to put that with egg. You're right, mascarpone. And you have to mix it with egg. Absolutely. I'm not sure there was any egg. Sometimes there was.

And it was good. Good, and you can pipe it. Were you piping? Oh, you're a piper. Well, not very well. What were you doing in lockdown? I was piping, actually. I was piping.

I'll tell you what I did do in lockdown, if you're at all interested. Because I'm not great at cooking, really. And I'm certainly not great at baking. But I saw a woman make something called breakfast cake and breakfast cake is made with yogurt and flour and egg and stuff and blueberries and it's you make it in a ring which is impressive yeah and you put a bit of icing sugar on it. And then I serve it with yogurt, which it's also got in it. And a little bit of hot maple syrup. Oh, nice.

I'll have to send it to you. Can we have that? We'll give you our cookbook if you promise. Yeah, all right. I'll send you that recipe. That is good. But that wouldn't be on my last supper. The tiramisu would be on my last supper.

And when you say... Drink. What's the drink? You're very... Honestly, I'm very lightweight. You're a bit disappointing. I know, so sorry. So sorry. Sorry. But honestly, that's. I know, so sorry. So sorry.

Sorry? But honestly, I'm already goody. Giddy. Goody and goody. Goody and goody. She's a goody goody. But my favourite drink is my best friend in the world's husband's cider, which is called Foy Valley Cider.

F-O-Y. You're that real Cornish guy. It's delicious, but it's light and lovely. Really, really golden, gorgeous. Fantastic. Yeah, that would be mine. Right, I'm going to ask, but you are so many different personas when you're up there.

So Jessie would never do karaoke because I forced her once at Club Med to be Whitney Houston and she hated it. Traumatised her. Yes. But I love karaoke. So which would be your karaoke song? I'm not sure I do love karaoke.

No, you don't have to love it. But if you're forced to. Why don't you like it, though? Because I wonder whether it's artist to artist, performer to performer. Because I can't really sing that well. I really sing well in the car and in the shower really brilliantly okay brilliantly on you know it's amazing how i

think um but really given because we've done quite a lot of parodies of songs and stuff yeah but once you're in a studio with headphones and a microphone and chords i just can't manage it it's called blood light isn't it? My producer Dave Okumu would say when the red light comes on it, he calls it blood light. Yeah, it is. And he's like... And all your confidence drops out. Yeah. Do you know once I went for an audition

to be in the film of Mamma Mia. Right, this is common knowledge to my friend Jennifer. And I was told by the producers, because I said look, I can't really sing. They said, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter, because Bjorn and Bjork or whatever they're called, they will fix it all.

They'll all be fixed up. Oh, lovely, thank you. Honestly, it doesn't matter how badly your singing is. You'll be all right. So I went for an audition, and I went to, it was a big theatre in Cambridge Circus, and I went up the stairs, and theatre in Cambridge Circus and I went up the stairs and sitting in the room

a lot of guys, gay guys I'm guessing, gorgeous, happy people at their computers all going, hey Dawn, lovely to see you lovely to see you, as I'm going for an audition oh good luck, it'll be fine and I went into the room next door and the musical director came in he said, let's just have a little

canter through Mamma Mia. Honestly, do you want to hear the sound that came out of me? What? Mamma Mia! Here we go again! Aye, aye! How did I forgive you?

One note. Couldn't get off one note. Oh. Stayed on one note. And he went, ooh, OK, we're not managing that. So let's move on to... Name any other... Money, money, money. Money, money money money money let's do that

okay yeah okay sorry about that i don't know why i couldn't get off the one note so off he goes plinky plonky blink and i go um money money money must be funny in a rich man's world this is what i was doing loudly so anyway he went oh anyway uh right lovely lovely to see you um and i was thinking it's all right, because she told me that he's going to fix it, and that isn't my real voice. I can sing much better than that. Yes.

So I come out of the room, and all the guys who had greeted me before, just their heads were down like that. Oh, my God. Total shame, all completely looking away from me, because it was just so awful, the noise they heard. And I went down the stairs, and literally I switched my phone on, and by the time they heard and i went down the stairs and literally i switched my phone on and by the time i got to the bottom of the stairs my agent was on the phone

going love love it's just not gonna work hold on but it's not like meryl did the performance of her life she did pretty well the person who didn't was tears you said it oh mate but i did worse than that oh i it's not good is it but that's what happened to my voice and yet in the shower I'm magnificent what are you singing in the shower cream darling I'll have a tiny tiny bit of cream do you know what I really want is a small black coffee I'm gonna give you you one. Thank you. This looks good. God, this is great. Supper, thank you. Such a bloke. That's what I need. Figs, lovely.

Crunchy and chewy. Yeah, well, figs are... They're in at the moment, aren't they, Mum? It's a good time for them. Dawn French, do you think that you've got good table manners? Kind of. I mean, look, I've got my elbow on here. I don't think that's...

We're sitting at a breakfast bar. Yeah, it's fine. Okay, okay. I think pretty good i know that my mum told me that when they were little she used to have to sit up so straight that you could put your arms back and put a broom handle through the back of your arms there oh my god and that is how you were supposed to and you take the food to your mouth you do not take your mouth to the food and all of that that's how they were taught to, and you take the food to your mouth. You do not take your mouth to the food and all of that. They were taught to sit that straight,

that you could put a broom handle across your back, through your arms. That's mad, isn't it? Dawn French, what an absolute pleasure to cook for you. She's been gorgeous. Thank you for cooking for me. I really appreciate it, properly appreciate it. It's such a pleasure. Can I just say, your hair is so beautiful and shiny. It's the most glossy hair.

How do you do that? Product. No, that is shine. Is that a hair straightening? Like, you iron that? It's hair straightening, yep. I put cement thermique. Ever heard of it? Oh, I've got that upstairs. That's what goes in, just that. What goes in, and then the irons

go. And a good cut, obviously a good cut. That cuts fab. And a separate colour. You won't believe that this is not my natural colour, Lenny. No, nor me. I am 63. How old are you? I'm 69. Are you?

Yeah. Come on, Lenny, you look pretty good for that. No, I don't. Yes, you do. You look freaking great. You look gorgeous. Well, likewise, sister. But can I tell you, the one thing that I ordered before we went into lockdown was hair colour.

I thought, there's no way I'm going fucking grey and fat. That was so... I loved this episode with Dawn. She was so warm and lovely. And I loved the way she talked about Cornwall and how she met her husband, the light shining into his eyes. And she's also reminded me

of how amazing the food in Cornwall is. And mum, you still need to go to the Hidden Hut. It's one of my favourite places thanks so much for listening and we shall see you next week for another episode of Second Helpings