Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware - Second Helpings - Jamie Oliver

Episode Date: August 28, 2024

We’re back for week 5 of our Second Helpings series, and it’s chef week! We were only going to do meals on wheels and travel to someone else's place if they were someone we had been angling for since series 1. And of course they were most certainly going to get THE chicken soup (I had a massive cold so it was selfishly suggested by moi). We went to meet the one and only Jamie Oliver! The Naked Chef, the people's champ, the person who taught most of us millennials how to cook. We grabbed Jamie at Jamie Oliver HQ after we watch him high five all his staff, kiss babies and see a team pickling sesh going on. He proclaims mum's balls are the best he's ever had, we talk a lot about family, the nostalgic smell of hibiscus, dyslexia, his wife eating gravy with a fork and holding back his cookbook Veg for years. We’re back next week for our final Second Helpings of this series, but boy are we going out with a bang, our favourite music legend and icon, we can’t wait! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Table Manor's second helping. This one is with the fantastic Jamie Oliver. This was recorded in December 2019. We actually went over to Jamie Oliver's amazing test kitchen, his headquarters, and we brought meals on wheels. Now listen, to any guests, future potential guests that are listening to this, this is not what Lenny and I like to do but we will make the exception. And how many how many years were we in at this point? Probably like two years, maybe one year in to making the podcast and it was Jamie Oliver. So we went to Jamie and we bought food and what did you make mum? So it's always nerve wracking to cook for a chef or a cook, especially someone like Jamie Oliver.

So I reverted to what I know best, which was my chicken soup with matzo balls and some chopped liver. Let's see what Jamie thought about Lenny's chicken soup with matzo balls. Jamie Oliver, second helping. Thank you for doing Table Manners. You're welcome. We are in your, do you call it the hub? Yeah I call it my HQ and after about 17 years of having like random little horrible offices here and there and we also initially we went to near Westland Place near Moorfields Eye Hospital, Old Street roundabout because it was cheap yeah and then when Tech City came in it literally went bonkers so we got moved out because we couldn't afford the rent. And then we came to Holloway, otherwise known as Loho. Oh, shut up. Oh, you are in Loho right now girls.

Do you not feel the power of the Emirates Stadium Arsenal? Yeah. Are you an Arsenal? Well, I am actually a Cambridge United supporter, which as I can tell from your sympathetic face that there's, but my son, he is an arse, he's a gooner. He loves the arse. And he's gone mad about football. And then because of that, and because of the office being 200 metres away and our home being less than a mile away, I am now a gooner. My husband's a Spurs fan.

Yeah, he'll hate me. Well he will and also he will be laughing at you today because he showed me, like this is, it feels so teenage. He showed me an Instagram photo. Ha ha! They can't even fill their stadium and ours is so much bigger. What's going on?

I just think they've had a, I think. Do you want him out? Do you want him out? No, he's out. Oh. Has he gone? He's done. When was that?

Like an hour ago. Shut up! Oh my goodness! Oh shit! So who's in? I don't know. Pochettino. I just know he's been fired.

Do you think Pochettino? They were holding signs up at... They lost again last night, so you know, the thing is, the Arsenal supporters... He's a miserable man. I think they're protesting. That's why they weren't there last night. They're protesting. Oh. I don't know. That's just what I'm guessing. Who knows? I'm not're protesting. That's why they weren't there last night. They're protesting. Ah. But I don't know.

That's just what I'm guessing. But who knows? I'm not an expert. I'm a terrible, terrible football supporter. I am a beginner. My son knows way more than me. Which son? Bud?

Buddy, yeah. How old's Buddy? He is nine and he just lives and roves football. And as a dad, I just like doing anything that makes him happy. So I wanna know, you have five children. Yes. Are you gonna have any more?

Don't know. Shut up. It's not off the record. Like it's not off the, it's not off. I don't really, I've tried, I have tried to say no more, but it don't go down very well. And like, you know, I don't know. Jules is a funny one.

Why she wants another child I do not know. But she's a real family maker. I mean, she's such an incredible mum. And I don't know. Does it never say never? Well, I don't know. Is she pregnant now? No, I don't think she's pregnant.

It's only got five. No, I don't think she's pregnant. I mean, I don't think she's pregnant, but I think she's 45 as of two days ago and sort of she's getting on a little bit. So I think she knows she's got a last window of opportunity as it were. She can get you drunk this Christmas, yeah. She don't really need to get me drunk for a bunk up,

but to be honest, she has had to put up with me for the last, well we've been going out since we were 18 and she was 45 two days ago. And to be honest, there's a lot that goes with being the wife of me, you know, and she put, you know, so I do my thing. She does, she's like family. I, this, you can tell this place is slightly unusual. We've got some really incredible food experts. We've got an amazing campaigns team here that looks at sort of child health.

140 people, but some real experts from, from crockery, art design, the testing team. And we work with lots of partners and just try and help make food better wherever we shine our little light on really. But there's a kind of, you know, the Jamie Oliver thing, as lovely as it might seem, comes with a fair amount of baggage

and Jules puts up with that. And then when I go home, we never talk about work, ever. Ever, ever, ever, ever. Okay, well then what happens when you're talking about food like are your kids fussy eaters? They all have a go at being everything I mean they're up and down like yo-yos I mean all of my kids grow up around food they've all grown stuff they've all planted stuff but their palates and their habits of course change for better and worse. I'm going through the beige period so I don't know

if River's going through the beige period. Yeah, River's just... Because I've got five, you've got this kind of incredible... What is the old times like, though? It's carnage. Do you have to make different meals? Rarely would you ever look at an olive at a table and go, well, that's a nice, normal British family.

Because you've got two teenagers, and then you've got a 10 and a 9-year-old, and year old. So there's three and then adults. So there's like three to four gears of types of conversation, types of wants and to a degree types of needs in food. So the teenagers want the kind of food that I want now so they don't mind. Although my kids have a bit of everything, the 8, nine year old still kind of like it a little bit simpler, although they're pretty good with a lot of stuff. They're good on their salads and their veggies

and stuff like that. But Little River is hilarious, because he's just like, he's such an Oliver. He looks like me, he's definitely my child, that's for sure. And he just goes carb nuts. Carb nuts, and he sniffs out a biscuit, he's like a dog. He'll sniff out a biscuit from a million miles, but he's, yeah, he's quite demanding at the

dinner party. I mean, Jaws has got a patience of a saint. How do you, I mean, we've just done this cookbook. How do you come up with new recipes that no one's ever had before? It's a really weird thing. I've never struggled ever, thank the Lord. My brain works in quite a weird way and I often imagine how it tastes and put concepts together in my head and I'll build a plate or a dish in my head and I can 85% smell it and almost taste it and I'm normally about right. It's really

weird. It's like kind of like a slightly spectrum like behavior to writing recipes and I don't know I think like my dyslexia has been like I've found it to be such a gift in my job. A lot of kids I talk to feel it's a real disablement. And because British education system is constructed to generally recognize and pat on the back a certain type of student, which I failed everything. But I think when you're dyslexic, you look at, like I'm kind of humbled and excited that MI5 specifically employ dyslexics

because they look at problems differently. Why? Because they don't, so I find myself now, I mean I think dyslexics just generally can't hold and compute certain stuff but look at problem solving in a totally different way. And if you can nurture those parts of how you are and this is why dyslexia is a gift not a problem it's just finding that happy place. Sometimes we work

part of the social stuff that we do here a lot of public don't know but a really big if not the central part of everything I do here is about monitoring largely British but international child public health, looking at health systems, looking at patterns, looking at health, looking at things that we could do to protect our children and it could be anything from the food chain to legislation to information and everything we do in the food world is very visceral to me and I really feel it and and although we absolutely fight for beautiful photography and really well tested recipes and I sit there and dream things up and in my own little weird

head I've kind of got this vision of an average Brit and I want to build enough recipes that are like cozy and comfortable and not too far from where they already are but then also always hang a little carrot of aspiration. And like, you know, sometimes they take the piss out of me because I'll use Miso. But you know, 20 years ago it was balsamic vinegar. And now every corner shop in Britain's got balsamic vinegar. It's just like, they throw it everywhere.

That's what I have to say. Like, I remember when the Naked Chef, like you arrived and it was, you made cooking feel accessible and exciting. And I remember there was like this one, I was probably a teenage, how old were you? You were young, how old, when did it start? We broadcasted when I was 24. Okay, so what year was that?

Dare I say it, 99? Okay. No, yeah, 99. So I was about 13, 14, and I remember, I don't know if it was in that book, there was this prosciutto covered salmon. Yes. Yeah. And then you did this amazing puy lentil

with Greek yogurt and spinach. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we'd sit and I'd feel the fanciest ever. And we'd sit the prosciutto wrapped salmon on top of the bed of puy lentils. I mean, my mom always did this amazing puy lentil salad, but like, it just was, it felt really easy enough to do, but also looked like you could host.

Hannah even cooked it. Hannah, my sister who cannot fucking cook, that was like her go-to meal. And I just remember it feeling so exciting as a teenager, watching him thinking, this is, you know, this is really cool stuff and I'm learning, but also it's there for the taking to be able to make. Just even looking at veg, it's not too

many ingredients. We try and keep the ingredients down. Which I think is really helpful. Yeah I think so. I feel like you've maintained what you did at the beginning. The maintaining thing is an interesting one. Because I was so grateful for so many years that anyone would even look at me twice or be interested. But it's a funny thing, being an author, so bearing in mind that I came from school, I had special needs all my secondary school life. like where were you you were born you were your Nessex boy Nessex boy

near Stansford Airport Cambridge direction okay little village called Claverin went to the local comprehensive school but your mom and dad had a pub mom still mom dad still run a pub to this day the same yeah lovely pub lovely food everything done from scratch. Desserts, the whole lot, ice cream, salt grapes, cookery. So it was part entertaining, was part of your hospitality? It's the only thing I knew and it was normal. It was like most kids went down the stairs to like a front room. Mine was a wash-up area and then a kitchen and sort of I think my sort of utter obsession and sort of romantic view on our country is from living in a pub, you know, which is I think the most democratic place in the world.

Old people, young people, my best friends were like gypsies, cockneys, we had the cricket club, football club, you know, tennis club, bowls club, you'd have people that are driven from London an hour, you know, to sort, bowls club, you'd have people that are driven from London an hour, you know, to sort of come and have a special meal. So I felt very connected to sort of community. Did you help out in the pub? That's all I did. Yeah, because I love money. And I love the concept of being a save up. And I never had

pocket money. So you had to work for it. Yeah. But I always had, you know but I always had a score in my pocket. You know, he's number 14 year old. I always had nice trainers, I always had 20 quid in my back pocket and I earned every bit of it. And I think like when you run a pub, like, so I'd clean toilets,

I'd polish the brass in the toilets, you'd bottle up, you'd do the bottle basket, you'd wash up, and then, you know, you clear tables, you clear the ashtrays in those days, you sweep out the bottle basket, you'd wash up and then you clear tables, you clear the ashtrays in those days, you sweep out the front, burn boxes and then of course the kitchen was the holy grail, that's where the fun was. And was your mum or dad in the kitchen cooking? My dad was a fully trained chef and he kind of was in the kitchen but then pulled himself out and employed a chef so he could run front of house. So it's quite a good place to be like to be running a

food business and be a chef is good because you can act like a general manager but sort of think like a chef and and like any kind of operational business it's all about getting stuff doing as little as little to it but good things to it as possible and then getting it out nice and hot and beautiful. So dad still does it. He's still up at four in the morning, baking bread, doing the breakfasts, and it's kind of... I think he should be thinking about retirement soon, but he won't stop. But it's an amazing learning ground for me. And I think when I started selling books, which was never expected ever, my first book went bonkers.

Yeah. And I think you can kind of, you can luck out once or twice maybe, but obviously 20 years on. It wasn't luck. It's a very emotionally driven business. Like it is a business. I've got, you know, I've got 4, 140 people to pay before I get paid. But the idea of someone using a book in their shelf in their kitchen is like my north star really. And so, even book one, testing, testing, testing the recipes. Because there's no such thing as a perfect recipe. Everyone's got different hands.

How many books have you written now? I think I've written 21. I think I've got at least five or six. Have you? Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, they're good books. Yeah. And they're all for different Yeah. And we try, they're all

for different, you know, some are about nutrition, some are about speed, some are about cost. You know, this particular book is about veg. Yeah. And, and I actually wrote that book nine years ago and I was too early, so I held it and I've never done that in my career ever. What? Yeah. Was it called Veg before? Is it? It It was called veg but it was a much more reportage book, family cookbook. It was much quainter with really sort of not complex but sort of embellished design and now it's purposefully very sterile, very clean and it's because I know that the public are reacting to a different language.

Again, this is dyslexic stuff for you. If you look at one of my, if you look at my book here, it's for a dyslexic, you want to have white, you have to really crave and respect white space. Instead of trying to fill it up with kind know, with kind of being clear, you know, things like tray bakes, which people go mad for, you know, doing a little play on a pizza, but you just, it's a reverse puff pastry pizza. So a little bit posher, a little bit more interesting,

but, you know, trying to keep the ingredients down, but, you know, taking everyday things, little hints and tips. So really, you know, you have enough, let's say boring stuff in there, in a nice way, and then enough exciting stuff in there, but really like fighting for white space. I know it sounds a bit odd. So yeah, I think every book that you write has a different brief, right? And what's your next one going to be? Veg. Mom's going to have to do a vegan to rectify all the fucking wrong things she said

about veganism and stuff. Oh, really? Literally, we're going to have to do a vegan to rectify all the fucking wrong things she said about veganism and stuff. Literally, we're gonna have to be like Table Melons against Bloody Grail. I do realise, no, I do realise that we've got to change our attitude to what we eat if things are going to be sustainable. Otherwise, no one will ever taste a piece of turkey because we just won't be able to do it. So I understand that. I think what's interesting is all of our great grandparents would have been very, they wouldn't have liked the label, but they would have been probably 60% more veg in all of their cooking.

Even if there was a bit of meat in it, it would have been shrouded by veg. Growing up, so you were in the pub and were you cooking at home? Didn't have a home, I lived in the pub. You lived in the pub, okay. So that was where you were having breakfast, lunch and dinner. Yeah. So who cooked that? Mum. So dad was a professional chef, but he was very,

they were both running the family business, but dad was very upfront doing that. But mum's fine cook, great family home cook. And it's quite nice to sort of see the gear change between chef cooking and mum cooking or home cooking because they are different, aren't they? And they can translate to both, of course, but generally when you're charging for a plate of food,

they want to be impressed by certain bits and pieces and blah, blah, blah. But of course I thought that my world was very normal. What I learned when I moved to London 20 years later was it wasn't. My dad was one of the genuine old original pioneers of what we would call now a gastropub. So from the age of four, five, six, seven,

like there would be live lobsters and crabs on a Tuesday. Wow. On a Thursday, there'd be whole lamb being butchered, whole pig being butchered, game coming in from randoms around the village having snared them or shot them, pates being made, sausages being made. Other than puff pastry, everything was made in the desserts.

We were famous for our desserts and the dessert trolley back in those days. Oh, dessert trolley. I think health and safety put an end to that. Did they? I think they pretty much did, yeah. Oh, because they couldn't be left out, it has to be in the fridge.

But there's a lot of sugar in there, so there ain't nothing gonna go off quick. But you know all those old tarts and it was sort of Anglo-French Swiss style desserts so this was where I earned my pocket money so I didn't even know I was learning. So and then but you got trained didn't you? I went to college, I went to Westminster College, Vincent Square and I was on crossover year so I was able to take either NVQ or City and Guild 706, 102 or both and I thought mate I'm all over this already so I'll do the double whammy. For the first time in my educational history yeah I smashed it and it was the first time for me because I couldn't quite fit into traditional

learning. So you got a certificate? I got a certificate that I've never used, ever. And I think this is an interesting one for parents of kids of a certain age and kids that are kind of going through school and thinking about university and stuff like that. There's such a lot of pressure now. I see it. I've got a 17 year old

looking at going to uni. I've got one going through GCSEs, just coming out of GCSEs. The pressure for the kids is immense, but also the pressure to be something. Do you know what you want to be? To be something. But it's very high achieving but within a kind of very scripted kind of parameters really. Would you like your children to be chefs? I'd love them to be interested. I mean I think the nice thing about the food industry is you don't have to be a chef to be in it or an author. Or I mean it's such a wide ranging world and it's such a fascinating area. Do they come and work here? I

haven't achieved any graft out of the teenagers thus far. I've given them loads of options and they could earn very well out of me but they're just not interested but they are working at school so there you go. Buddy however, my nine-year-old is amazing. He knows everyone here. He is like as cute as they come He can use a knife like he knows how to cook he can put a graft in like he will do a 10-hour shift for real No, and he'll come with me when he's in school holidays. He'll come with me and start a 530 and do a 10-hour shift I don't make him by the way before everyone starts writing in saying I'm like awful. No, and he gets, but also he gets coined for it. Like he's got, he's got money in his back pocket.

Like he just bought mom, yeah he's basically me. He bought mom a birthday present and George is like, did you give him any money? He went no. I said dude, he bought that with cash he'd earned like a month ago in the school holidays. He spent it on his mom. He saves it all up.

I love him. Aw, sweet. But listen, I think there's hope with him, but who knows? I mean, that's the thing with kids. They kind of, they keep you, you just don't know. I mean, you've done it. I mean, it's such an emotional roller coaster.

They keep you going, yeah. I feel like I'm really hungry, I'm sorry. Do you want to have something? Yeah, so what's the score? Okay, this is a bit unusual how we do this because we don't, we usually have it at ours so it's like a bit, so you would have had a proper dinner but we've kind of brought a token of our love. So I made some chopped liver this morning.

Beautiful. And some chicken soup with matzo balls. Amazing. Which we feel like if anybody's gonna accept chopped liver, it will be a chef. Of course. But some people are really funny about it. You know, it's got grated egg on the top.

We once served it to a rapper. To loyal Connor, do you know? He's a rapper, he's an artist. First of all, the word. I saw him go pale when I said chopped liver. He went for it politely, but it's one of my favorite, I love it so much, but Sam and my brother, who have both gone vegetarian this morning

when mum was cooking up the livers, they were like, but I love it. Mate, if they're nice and fresh. Well, we'll see. But listen, so you guys cook a lot of classic Jewish dishes? Well, yeah, but like so. I'm most confident with Jewish food to be honest. I mean it's very old-fashioned how one presents it it's like it's so funny

it's exactly how my grandma would present it it's like you know it it's a funny old thing chop liver isn't it? I just love it I mean for me it's pate right? Yeah exactly I think that they should change the wording of it. It just needs a bit of rebranding. Yeah exactly. Thank you darling. But you do put eggs in so. Great. Do you think you've got good table manners? I think that I have got good table manners. Do you think?

Do you care for table manners? Yeah, I do. I really care. And something that I'm trying to work on at the moment, although I need some kind of level of behaviour at the dinner table that isn't carnage, which is because we have so many ages at table, I would love to say grace. I don't actually care what religion it is. Do you know what I mean?

I just love the idea and the concept of saying thank you for food. And I get it. After all these years, I get it, I get it, I get it. We all should be grateful for the food we eat. And I think if you go back in the history of food, which I'm obsessed by, and of course you'll see this in Jewish cuisine or any cuisine, is just the vulnerability of people.

They were so grateful for the food they got. And so yeah, I think my table manners are good most of the time. Don't get me wrong, I like being on a sofa like curled up with a little bowl or something for me if it's just a me I in but with the kids They tend to go a little bit dare. I say it Forgive me if I sound condescending

American style and it's just fork Fork fork action. Yeah, so I'm like knife and fork Come on knife and fork feet down get that screen off the table so I Come on, knife and fork, feet down, get that screen off the table. Oh, God, yeah. So I... That doesn't mean I've achieved the goal. No. I've got five kids, so... Yeah, no, I can only imagine what it's like. I can only focus so many places.

Do you have to... You won't allow screens at the table? I hate it, however, River is such a feral child. All my other kids... How old's River? River's three. Oh, he's the three year old, the baby. And I would say he gets... Sometimes we have to put a screen.

This will be controversial, I know. But Jules won't care. But basically, most of the time he doesn't have a screen. If he's not eating it, if you put a screen in front of him, it hypnotises him and you put anything in his mouth. They're like evil, aren't they? If you've got a kid like River who River will go, you'll give him something and he'll eat it and because he's eating it and

it's not round anymore he'll cry because it's not round anymore. So you can only do that for so many minutes. But also because he likes carbs and he's not as much, all the other kids have been better on veggies and salads and trying different things. So he's like meat and carbs. So if you want to get some of the good stuff in him, almost the same as blending food into a sauce or into a smoothie. Me and, not so much me, but Jules will put it on and it does work. But we hate it. No, please help yourself.

Just try a bit. But I'm pretty much zero tolerance on the screens at the table. It really pisses me off. Where are some of your favourite restaurants in London? Where do you go with family? Like, where do you go as a family of bloody seven? Where's good to, where's to go? This is delicious, by the way.

Is it? Good. I love it. Very, very nice. I love chocolate. Okay, where do we go with family seven? Nowhere. Nowhere would I dare, I mean

I know we're not that normal, but nowhere with teenagers all the way through to three year old, would we feel comfortable going out and not ruining some other people's day. So I would take my two teenagers anywhere, I'd take the two middle ones anywhere, and I'd keep it light and easy

with the youngest maybe on their own, but the teenagers have no patience for the little one. So you just can't, you know, you've got to try and, but to be honest, I mean, the restaurants I like to take myself or Jool's, places like, of course I love the River Cafe, that's where I came from. Yeah. Padela, which is one of my ex-students, Tim, fantastic, love it.

Love the Chop House on St. John Street. Absolutely love that sort of food. Last night we were on a little laxer place just around the corner. There's lots of really interesting sort of smaller restaurants now, which I think is really exciting. I still love going to Raza, which is a vegetarian curry joint up in

Stoke Newton and I actually used to work in their kitchen. They used to have a kitchen in Charlotte Street in town many years ago. But yeah I mean I think the truth is though I don't get out much. I know more about restaurants in other countries than here because when I'm working in other countries, we'll go out lunch and we'll go out dinner and we'll just rattle that for a week. Whereas here, as soon as I finish work, I just want to see the Mrs. and the kids.

But where do you, so where's one of your favorite cities to eat in? Well, London is amazing. We're so blessed. But I love New York. I love eating in Florence. I think San Francisco is brilliant for food. It's fucking pricey though, isn't it?

Really pricey. Melbourne's great. Sydney, strong. But look, I'll sniff out good grub wherever I end up. I mean, literally, you can put me in the arse end of anywhere and I will find some good grub. Like this up. I mean literally you can put me in the arse end of anywhere And I will find some good grub like this. This is delicious. I love pickles I love this beautiful brioche style bread and my wife buys this every Friday actually Yeah, yeah, we've got a lot of Jewish friends, so

We and we live in North London like I say so we we sort of experience quite a lot of this stuff And we go around our friends for Hanukkah We like candles and bits and pieces like that Yeah, I love it. How are you gonna do your Brussels sprouts this year? Good question. God straighten So I've been enjoying There's two ways to go with Brussels in my mind there's sort of longer and slower and that's very fast So like I have Brussels in a hustle, which are like you you you You rustle you rattle Actually use my food process. You can use knife if you want

But in a on the fine-cut slicer on a food processor I just put like a couple of kilos of Brussels and then I basically go two ingredients butter and loads of Worcestershire sauce And cook it hard and fast and that is just to die for. Like so like like a wok fry, think wok fry yeah. So are they shaved or are they chopped up? Yeah they're wafer thin. They're like when you do your shredding like almost. And don't push them through too quick so they go even finer. But then to opposite that if you what I have been doing recently my wife doesn't like onions, normally I do it with onions but so I use leeks what the have been doing recently, my wife doesn't like onions, normally I do it with onions, so I use leeks, the whiter leeks. Your wife doesn't like onions?

That must be quite difficult. It's a pain in the arse. Can she taste them in anything or does she just not like to see them? Mate, I lose them in things all the time and she don't even say nothing about it. She's not allergic to them. No, but you know. How can she not like onions? They're one of the best things in the world.

No, she hates them, she hates them. How funny. I put them in her gravies. You know, I put them maybe in some curry bases and I liquidise them out. But does she just not like the texture, consistency? No, you never know. But after 20 years married, she don't want to dig too deep. You know what I mean?

Does she never do any of the cooking? She cooks very well for the kids. But basically, I cook at home. And to be honest- Why would you not have it that way? She don't cook for me me. She might cook. She might maybe cook for me once a year But here's the thing. I don't mind that because I just want to love her and the only way I can love her is to cook For her really, do you know what I mean? I want to know what you cooked for her the first time you ever cooked for her

Was that like one of your pulling techniques and at the age of 18? Yeah Do you remember what you cooked? Mm-hmm. And where was it? Was it in the pub? It's sort of two-toned. Because she came to dinner at hours, and mum cooked,

like a roast dinner, chicken with all the trimmings. So that was a good start. And I noticed an unusual obsession for gravy. And she was drinking gravy with a fork, which is a little bit disgusting. Jules was? Yeah filthy. On the first date, the first meeting with the parents. My mum gave her a spoon. She didn't have a spoon and she liked the gravy. My missus loves. She don't see any difference between soup and gravy. It's all the same gravy.

So I knew that I was into a good eater because she's a good eater Jules. I like that. And then the first thing I cooked for her was into a good eater, because she's a good eater, Jules. I like that. And then the first thing I cooked for her was basically a spaghetti bolognese, which is good because it's like, you know, everyone likes spaghetti bolognese, I can do a nice one, but what I forgot is that whilst sucking on the spaghetti, you know, if you're, you do flap a lot of sauce.

You were thinking Lady and the Tramp, and it just kind of didn't go. I was, but also, it was more like Lady covered in ragu. But I think she quite liked it, and I think she liked the fact that I could cook. But also, in those early days, she used to be a model back in the day, and she used to go on lots of go-sees and work in different countries and stuff. So I used to work, work, work while she's away, save up all my cash, and then I'd take her out somewhere nice. So, you know.

He's so romantic. You are romantic. Yeah, I like romance. I'm, listen, I'm a massive feminist, but also I don't think that discounts chivalry. No, I agree. I think bloody good manners, and no matter where we go, it's nice.

I'll open the door for anyone, male or female. Do you remember where you took her for that meal or not? You'd saved up all the money? Do you know what? Because we were from a village in Essex where not really much happens. The bus used to only come through every couple of days, twice a week. I saved up as a... twice a week. I saved up as a... Jessie, excuse me, one or two ball mats... You give me what you think I need. Two. Thank God, it wasn't three.

No, because, I don't know, very early on, I like the idea of loving people through food. And obviously at that age, you're very much in love which is great but also I saved up hard and I took it to the Ritz. I took it for the Ritz and we're from a little village, oh that looks amazing, we're from a little village in Essex where nothing really happens. So the idea of going to the Ritz is like completely bonkers. So I was trying to show off you know and, and we went for afternoon tea. And then as we walked out, the geese at the door said, there's your keys, Mr. Oliver. And then we

went for, we had a night overlooking Green Park. And I remember it was like 500 quid. That's a long time ago. And that was, that was like weeks work you know but I was I was trying to make an impression I was trying to romance her yeah can you talk to me about matzah then what do it oh that's delicious so this is a yeah I like it reminds me of consomme yeah your balls are nice they're great your balls are actually better than mine well I think think... Is it semolina in there? No it's just matzo meal. Is it? Are they made out of semolina? No, it's made out of this but ground up. This is delicious. I love your balls. Your balls are the best matzo balls I've had.

Thank you Jamie. Fucking get that on the front of the fucking cookbook. Jesus Christ. You know it's taken me a long time to perfect these matzah balls I think my matzah balls are the best matzah balls ever if you say so yourself. I'm sorry Matzah balls many times and in America and leads all around North London and And I've even looked up old recipes myself and made them myself these are much better than all of those I'm telling you. Thank you Jamie. Well, ladi dal mum. You see I did bring it for you because it's my strong...

Because they can be like bullets right? Well they used to be... I quite like them when they're hard bullets though. These are delicious though. I also like the big American ones where they're like that big. But is there one aroma that really like brings back a certain like moment? Is there one nostalgic aroma kind of in the kitchen for you?

There was, I mean, there's lots, right? There's lots and they all mean different things. The one that was like a punch in the face that was powerful because I hadn't had it in 36 years was hibiscus. And I had hibiscus in New York in a very Arabic part of the city. And we were learning about the culture

in that part of the city and the story of immigration and how they do stuff. And he gave me this drink that was like a hibiscus tea. And it viscerally took me back, like, to being about four years old on the Norfolk Broads on my granddad's lap. And do you remember when you weren't very well, when you were a child, you used to be able to go to Boots

or alike and they would give you either hibiscus or rose hip syrup. I don't remember. Well you're a little bit a lot younger than me but I hadn't had it since that day and hibiscus, if you have never had hibiscus tea, is the most joyful tea to have and then if you can get hibiscus syrup it's like get hibiscus syrup. It's like so amazing in desserts and even cleverly used, you know, as you would honey in some kind of salad or dressings or to finish a little glaze. Like if you've got, if you're glazing something on a barbecue and you just sort of like for the last 30 seconds a bit of hibiscus, but hibiscus, hibiscus, it's an amazing, so that's,

that's the most powerful time I've ever had it, but it was like a time walk. But of course other things and smells, I'm like, oh yeah, then student days, and then oh yeah, that was, you know, takes you back. Do you miss working in a kitchen? I mean, I know you work in a kitchen, but you know. Yeah, I'm cooking every day, but as-

You know, doing shifts. Yeah. You know, doing shifts. Yeah. I do miss it because it's a very, it's a complex job, but also there's something very safe and predictable about it. It has a rhythm and a pattern and I like... Hard work. It is, yeah.

On your feet a long time. Yeah. Do you wear crocs when you're standing in the kitchen? Never. No, no. I wear Birkenstocks. And they're comfy. But for the first third of my career, it was always like culinary versions of Dutch clogs.

That was the done thing. That's what I feel more. They're awful to be in there, so hard and uncomfortable. Look, I've got to say, like when I trained to be a chef, and I am starting to sound like an oldie, standard hours was 80 a week, standard. And I was pushing into the hundreds.

Not the hundreds, but up to a hundred, standard. Have you got any restaurants now? We have 15 Cornwall in Cornwall. So there's still 15 in Cornwall? Sadly, we have 15 Cornwall in 15 in Cornwall sadly we lost 15 in London. I lost all my UK restaurants this year, which is awful and Very upsetting and has been incredibly tough but we also Have 70 restaurants in 17 other countries 18 countries around the world So it's I'm not trying to paint a picture of this or that it's just sort of saying, you know have 70 restaurants in 17 other countries, 18 countries around the world.

So it's, I'm not trying to paint a picture of this or that, it's just sort of saying, you know, I mean, we try really hard at what we do, we work very hard with our foreign partners, and I don't know many British brands that translate into those, I don't know any other, I don't know anything else in the high street that I know of that food-wise goes into different territories like that. So I'm still very proud of what we've achieved. The UK story was incredibly painful, but I know I'm not the only one and I think anyone that's listening to this that has a family business or a small medium-sized business that it's more than likely that they're hanging on in there. I mean, you

know, it's been so hard the last four or five years. Do you think you'll start new restaurants? I think I will at some point, but I think at the moment, like, when... Yeah, just breathe deep and say... The interesting thing about my restaurants is when you've had the best, I mean, like, I had it better than anyone else, you know, we smashed the brief, we redefined mid-market dining, we had queues in all the restaurants for years. We were paying above our competitors, we were training them like no one else. But when it started to turn, I've had the best and worst of it. So I think what I'm going through, like any kind of, I guess, loss or kind of when... It's grieving.

Grieving. I'm trying to work out, a little bit like when we were talking about the book, you know, what's the point? What's my job? Whatever I do next has to have purpose because I'm me. So I can't do cute and tiny. I mean, I can, but I just don't think that's really answering the brief So I'm gonna sort of sit by and see what happens with brexit

I'm gonna sit by and see what happens to our high streets around Britain We're gonna sit by and see what an earth happens to business rates and rents. Have you got restaurants in Europe? Yeah Crikey, yeah, and they're all doing really well funny enough. Yep So the interesting thing for me, of course, is that I, whether it's books, TV content or restaurants, you know, for a lot of people they only see what happens in their own high street. I'm very much aware of what's happening in lots of different places and what's happening here in Britain at the moment is quite unique in my opinion. I think the word unique is a very reserved word. We've only got five minutes. Last Supper. We need to know your last supper. Start in

Maine, Pud, drink of choice. We need to know your last supper. Oh my lord. It's a bit of a tough one. Yeah. Because I think from a nostalgia point of view, we, I have to go to my mum's Sunday roast dinner with all the trimmings. Okay, so that's the main. That's the main. I think. Beef, lamb or chicken? That's a really good question. I like beef because they're not going to have Yorkshire puddings. I know, but I feel like you should just incorporate a Yorkshire with a lamb or a chicken. You're absolutely right. I don't understand why we deny ourselves of that. No, no, but that was the way it always was. I know.

So you're right. But do you give a Yorkshire pudding with your chicken, roast chicken now? Never. I know, but it's stage. It's ridiculous. Oh, shut up, mum. Um, dessert, we would, I think it's got to be sticky toffee pudding with custard. Oh, not clotted cream.

Well, I like both. Oh Oh yeah. Is that okay? Now you're talking in my language. Are you kidding? I have cream on ice cream. I love it. And then on start are based on what we're having because we're going from the end backwards aren't we. I think like I remember when I was like seven years old and the first avocados that ever came into the country came in and everyone was like Never seen anything like that before and a good old-fashioned Prawn cocktail in with the avocado with avocado picked beautiful fresh crab and prawns the classic Mara Rose sauce iceberg lettuce chiffonade is fine. Yeah and

Would make me little pinch of cayenne and lemon juice. Ooh. Old school, but nonetheless full of memories and joy and happiness and yeah. And what drink are you gonna have? I think that at the moment I am really enjoying a Negroni. Oh, aren't we all? Everyone needs a Negroni. Can I give you a Negroni

tip? Yeah. And this isn't like a dodgy tip, it might sound dodgy but like it actually works. So the next time you get a Negroni just ask the the barman to put a teaspoon of limoncello in with it and see what happens. Honestly, I hate lemon cello. I hate lemon cello. So when they offer it at the end of the day, you're like, nice, my heart goes. I loved it for like a year, I had too much, off it.

It's like medicine. Promise me you'll try it. I will. Go and get a good negroni. How did you find this out? I got offered it up by a barman, I said, look mate, I hate lemon cello, he goes, just try it.

And the thing is, there's that slight bitterness that you get in like marmalade and bergamot and sort of grapefruit, but it's, because it's only a thimble, and because that- Just brings it out. It just somehow like superpowers it. It's like a squeeze of lemon on a bit of smoked salmon, it's like woohoo!

Oh yeah. So try it, and look, you can only waste it on one, but remember that nothing good ever happens after three Negronis. Jamie Oliver thank you so much for taking the time out of your... I've loved my food. Bless you. You are now very lucky to be the owner of the table manatee. Oh my and it's Leopard Prince.

Yeah that's because my mother demands our bloody end pages on the bloody cookbook leopard prints my mum wanted it i love it that's gonna go home with me we love a person that has a double portion of everything. He loved the food mum. I love a man with a good appetite. How do you feel about Jamie Oliver saying that your matzo balls were the best matzo balls he'd ever eaten? I think I remember him saying he'd been all over the world and eaten at some of the best restaurants and my matzo balls were without doubt the best he'd ever had. Mum, you're beating, you know, all the old Jewish recipe cookbooks.

Lenny's are reigning supreme. And you know, also Lenny, you gave your chicken soup, well, your matzo balls to the masses when you did your fowl collaboration. So just look how far you've come, Len. Also, when we went on tour tour people were knocking each other over to have some chicken soup with a matzo ball in. Fighting for it Jess. I'm yet to try his Negroni trick of putting a teaspoon of limoncello in, probably because whenever I have it in my house I try and get rid of it. What a classic last supper, prawn

cocktail, roast and sticky toffee pudding and also what a romantic. Very romantic but who knew that he has the best turkey farm, he produces the best turkey I've ever eaten. Also it was really interesting to hear him talking about how much his son Buddy loves to cook. He was nine at the time when we recorded this and now he's 13 and has become like a YouTube sensation.

He's got this really, really popular YouTube channel called Cooking Buddies. Oh, and he's released his own cookbook. Let's cook. Let's cook. Thank you to Jamie for coming on the podcast and our next episode of Second Helpings will be our last. And then probably we'll be very ready to come back with a new series of table manners. We'll see you next week.