Taking 20 Podcast - Ep 161 - Player Indecision

Episode Date: February 5, 2023

Left or right at the intersection?  Fight or flee?  Sell the potion or keep it for later?  Players sometimes find it hard to make a decision and that can drive DMs up a wall.  In this episode, we look at possible causes for indecision and repeatedly urge players to make a choice...ANY choice.  Please, we DMs are begging you...for the love of Iomedae.   Resources: Resigned:  How to Know When It’s Time to Go:  https://www.theguardian.com/games/2022/dec/13/first-time-as-a-d-and-d-dungeon-master-dungeons-and-dragons

This week on the Taking 20 Podcast. Most decisions may result in easier or harder encounters, longer or shorter adventures, longer or shorter paths to the end. That's it. Thank you for listening to Taking 20 Podcast, Episode 161. This week, giving advice to players about dealing with indecision. I want to thank this week's sponsor, Tubas. Did you know that almost everyone has a tuba in their bathroom? Yep, they have a tuba toothpaste.

If you like the podcast, please consider helping me spread the word. Tell your gaming group, link to one of my posts on Instagram or Facebook. It helps get the word out and hopefully helps someone find the podcast who might like to hear it. If there is one thing that can drive a GM insane, it's a party that can't make decisions that are relatively inconsequential. Do we intimidate, diplomatize, or bribe the gate guard to let us in? Should we take the stairs down to the next level or clear out this level first? Is it really safe to load ourselves in a trebuchet and fling ourselves over the castle wall? The players debate for an hour. Meanwhile, your long-suffering DM is staring at the next two possible encounters behind the screen, drumming their fingers, waiting for you to make a damn

decision. In December, I read an article on a website called The Guardian written by Keith Stewart about his experience DMing Dungeons and Dragons for his two sons, his friend, and his friend's son. And he had, let's just say, a negative experience behind the screen. I'll link to the article and the resources of this particular episode, so you can head over to taking20podcast.com or read the description of the episode and see the link. The line in his article that made me laugh the hardest, though, he described the game was like trying to play The Witcher with the Oxford University debate team. Everything went slower and was more chaotic than he had ever imagined. The party stood around asking the DM questions like, what time is it? What's the weather like? And rather than launch into battle when the undead

on the shore started appearing, they started asking questions about improvised weapons and throwing rocks and whether the undead can even be hurt without magic. First and foremost, Mr. Stewart, I get it. Anyone who's DM'd, especially for new players, has had a session go off the rails before you even leave the station and had the whole session grind to a halt, where there's endless discussions around the table. With the limited information he included in the article, I think a session zero, maybe some pre-planning, and a pre-game advice to the players would have made it go a lot smoother.

He includes some great advice for new DMs in the article, and I'll link to it again in the resources. However, this episode isn't for Mr. Stewart and my beloved GMs out there. This episode is for my wonderful players who are listening, experienced and new, excited and grizzled, calm and worried. Players, as someone who has GMed some flavor of this game since the 1980s, I want to encourage you to do one thing at your next game session. Make a damn decision. Don't think for a minute that I don't need this episode as well. I GM a few groups and play in a couple of others, and my party is that they've experienced

the exact same indecision. Oh, do we go down the stairs now, or clear out the level? Do we attack the Naga in her nest, or try to lure her out? Do we try to trick the guard at the front gate, or attack the Naga in her nest or try to lure her out? Do we try to trick the guard at the front gate or take the dead men raise no alarms tack and snipe them from the bushes? Three people throwing out ideas and no one decides what the party's going to do. I've fallen prey to this multiple times and this can really slow down momentum and progress mid-session. But why does this happen? Why do groups get bogged down in discussion and

indecision? To start off, let me get one thing out of the way. Every player and GM at the table have the right to have their opinion heard. Do not think for a second that I'm advising players not to speak up. Your thoughts and concerns about what's going on in the game should be expressed to the entire group, and you have a right to your opinions. So speak up whenever and however often you need to. That being said, I think there's some basic causes of party indecision that I want to go over. Some indecision arises out of a fear of some sort. It could be fear of failure. You don't want to make the wrong decision, so you make no decision at all. Okay, players, the party's examined the crime scene.

What do you want to do next? And the party all just looks at each other. What do you want to do? I don't know. What do you want to do? Some are scared that if they pick A instead of B, it'll lead the party into maybe not being able to complete the mission. If they attack instead of stealth or use diplomacy, maybe they go left, maybe right, maybe the party's all going to die with that choice, or maybe there's some other huge failure

and the campaign's going to end and blame will start flying around like pies in a food fight. First and foremost, the vast, vast, vast majority of decisions that will be made at the table are not live and die. Campaign success or campaign failure. Riches or sulfuric acid. Yes, okay, if the party is standing on a shore with a chest full of gold to their left and a pool of acid on their right, then yes, maybe their choice is literally riches or sizzly bubbly death. Definitely not a common occurrence, though. Players, if you were to peek around the DM screen and saw the overview of the campaign, if you're sitting at encounter A trying to make a decision, chances are the choices are either A then B then C then D or A then E then F then C

then D. Most decisions may result in easier or harder encounters, longer or shorter adventures, longer or shorter paths to the end. That's it. My players in the Skull and Shackles campaign had to make a decision whether they wanted to serve as messengers between two minor political players or not. If they chose to do so, then they would reach this particular island adventure quickly. And if not, they would get hints to go to the island later anyway. They agonized over the decision for a bit, discussing pros and cons for a good long while. Designing a campaign such that the party eventually makes it from one location to another

isn't negating the choices that the players make. It's DMs adapting the world around the choices of the players to keep the adventure moving forward. What follows is spoilers for an adventure that is almost 45 years old. It is almost as old as I am, The Keep on the Borderlands. It is a classic module written by the man himself, Gary Gygax. So if you ever want to play this adventure, skip ahead about 30 seconds. Okay, The Keep on the Borderlands is meant to end at a place called the Caves of Chaos, but there is a metric crap ton of ways to get there. There are a number of encounters that can be included or not, depending on the choices the characters make while they're

exploring outside the Keep. Some parties will have three encounters and find the ultimate destination on the first day. Some parties will have 20 encounters and it'll take a week. But the module is expressly written to end at that location, so unless you want to do a ton of rewriting or reworking of the entire module, the characters need to wind up there eventually. Hi, and welcome back to my friends who skipped ahead to avoid spoilers. Just so you don't feel left out, Captain Picard killed Professor Snape. Yep, with a blunderbuss. Those books really got out of character there towards the end. Anyway, some groups are scared that their decisions will lead to failure. What I generally say to my party is, I ask them if they trust me. Do they trust me to lead them on an adventure no matter what their choices are? Some paths are easier, some are

harder, but I promise I will do my level best to make sure they have a good time. And by the way, suppose the party does make a decision that leads to all the characters dying in some horrible way. It's an adventure. And to quote the Mummy movie with Brendan Fraser, death is only the beginning. Sometimes parties fear making a decision because they're scared they will learn something by talking to the next NPC that will make everything clear. They have a fear of not enough information.

Like, if they pick certain townspeople or cult members or the right sphinx, everything will be made crystal clear and the right way will be obvious. I think this is another symptom of lack of trust in the DM. obvious. I think this is another symptom of lack of trust in the DM. My groups, I believe, have figured out that when they continue to ask questions of different people and different NPCs and don't get anything relevant for about two or three people in a row, or they get repeated information, then yeah, they've got everything that they need and they need to go ahead and make a decision. I will sometimes expressly state that they feel like they've talked to everyone who could have good relevant information for them. As a DM, by the way, don't be afraid to give the group a little nudge like that if they're fishing for more information when it's simply not there.

Depending on the adventure, characters may not know who to trust, so they have a fear of being misled and believing the wrong NPC. But as I always tell my players, the NPCs have goals and motives too, and sometimes they may lie to you because it suits their ends. If you trusted the wrong NPC, well, you can decide how you handle that when you figure that out. In a homebrew adventure that took place in Lastwall on Galarian years ago that I was running, a king's senior advisor who looked like a female elf was lying her freaking pants off to the characters. She led them on tangential adventures while she herself was looking for a particular MacGuffin that the party was also looking for. When the party figured

out that they were being deceived, they confronted her about it, only to discover that she was actually a polymorphed silver dragon who was leading the party astray to try to keep them alive. Finally, she acquiesced and accepted their help, and the party found the MacGuffin and only escaped with their lives because they jumped off a damn cliff to avoid parlaying with the enemy. God, that's a story for another time. This could be a whole episode about how to lie to PCs while keeping the game moving. Sometimes NPCs will deceive the party because it's in their nature to do so or because it benefits them at the time. If you do intend for this to be part of the game, make sure your players know that they have to decide which NPCs they're going to trust. Players, one of the things you may have to decide at some point if you're getting conflicting

information from different NPCs is you need to decide who you're going to trust. Whose information do you believe is more accurate? Make a decision on that, and if you're wrong, you can deal with that at a later date. Indecision may also come from a fear of being dismissed or ridiculed by other members of the party. This is at the player level, not the character level. I sincerely hope that your players aren't like this and any teasing is done good-naturedly and with the full approval and acceptance of everyone. One of my favorite Let's Play podcasts is called The Glass Cannon. It's out there.

They've got a number of different live play podcasts going right now. I wholeheartedly recommend them. But if you do listen, you will hear them give each other crap about everything. Joe's bad luck. Troy's seemingly endless bloodlust towards the characters, Skid's age, Matthew's playwriting, and height. They kid because they love. If you came into a group like that cold,

it might seem like they are mean and ridiculing each other. I mean, they are, but they don't pick on any one person for long, and it's always in a good-natured manner. Sorry, I chased a little bit of a rabbit trail there. Some people may fear that they're going to be dismissed by the other players for speaking up their desires or wants or choices they would make. GMs, do what you can to make sure everyone has an opportunity to voice their opinions and be heard. In one of my groups, I have an extremely quiet member who doesn't interrupt anyone and waits for their turn to speak. I make it my mission to ask at least once per session, hey, what does your character think about this, to make sure they get

the opportunity to contribute in an environment free of judgment. Sometimes the party is indecisive because of a variant type of fear, the need to be perfect. They went out and found the perfect ranger archer build, or fighter heavy weapon specialist, or wild-shaped druid feat choices, healer cleric, and they're following the recommended build to the letter. Because they are scared if they don't, their character won't be perfect. character won't be perfect. Similarly, they hesitate to make a decision because they want all of their choices to be perfect, like a person playing an adventure game who goes back to a previous save if anything goes wrong. Hey, I get it. None of us want to be the weak link character. None of us want to be the one advocating for a choice in the adventure that turns out to be suboptimal. But I would encourage my wonderful players out there

to let go of the need for perfection in themselves, in their characters, and yes, in the adventure itself. But hear me now and believe me later. Being imperfect is not equivalent to being a problem. Further, I encourage you to reframe the question not in terms of right and wrong choices, but pros and cons of each choice. Make the best choice that you can.

Every choice you're going to make in life and at the RPG table will have benefits and downsides. And you need to give yourself permission to fail. Believe me when I say failing at a decision at the RPG table is a lot less worrisome than failing at your job or school or relationships. So if you suggested that the party go left instead of right and now you're fighting a wandering monster bandit leader that's a minotaur, big whoop. Kick their ass, secure yourself two new drinking horns, and then head back the other direction. Another possible source of indecision is the desire for everyone to be happy. Everyone simultaneously becomes overly deferential. After you. No, after you. No, I insist. No, no, you're too kind. After you.

No one wants to make a decision because of the chance of offending someone or someone not getting their way. I am all for finding a consensus, but at some point you should probably just vote for it and move on. Work to find that consensus, but if the conversation feels like it's looping or languishing, encourage everyone to make a final decision and let's move the story forward. If Lori's preference wasn't chosen this time, maybe work to include hers the next one. On the opposite side of the spectrum, it could be that some in your group are just assholes and demand their way all the time. Four members of the party want to stick with diplomacy, but one wants to switch to aggressive negotiations by beating the NPC with a sock full of nickels. No one wants to

back down and both sides are trying to talk it out, but the discussion is now stretched into the second hour and you're about ready to go get your own sock full of nickels and settle this. Remember, tabletop role-playing is collaborative. Everyone should get some say over what the party does. Give everyone a chance to contribute. I don't care if you cheated and read the adventure ahead of time and know which option is the better one. Ooh, we need to talk to the sheriff's cousin's dog's ex-owner's roommate

to find out something important. Rest of the party says, What? Where'd that come from? No, no, we have to. Trust me. dog's ex-owner's roommate to find out something important. The rest of the party says, what? Where'd that come from? No, no, we have to. Trust me. Don't fucking do that, by the way. Don't read an adventure ahead of time. If you ever want to see GM Jeremy get really pissed, let it slip that you've read the adventure ahead of time and you know what's coming. Even if you know in your heart of hearts that doing A is the right thing because of experience or metagame knowledge and the other members of your party don't want to do that, it's okay. They may come back to your plan after the dragon roasts the town of Blue Ridge. Sometimes indecision comes from an overload of options or overthinking everything. If you have an abundance of

information, it could cause a worry that rather than choosing between two doors, you're choosing from among eight. I was discussing this concept with a work colleague, and she said something very insightful. You can't think your way out of overthinking. And when she said that, it made a lot of sense. It's not that you shouldn't think about problems with no certain answer, but at some point, rely on taking action to solve the problem, not just continuing to think and debate it. Rely on the likelihood of positive outcomes, and if you were wrong, you were wrong. Take a different road, fight the wandering monster, make another character, and let's get back on track. By the way, on the making another character concept, I saw a story on social media that I desperately want to be true.

The story was that a young player had their character die, and after a moment of silence, they wrote Junior after the previous character's name and shouted, I am here to avenge my father. That sounds hilarious. Do that if the choice winds up really wrong. One thing to remember as a player, your DM may not allow indecision to reign supreme at the table for long, and they may do something to force you to make a decision. They may put you on the clock, put an hourglass on the table, add dice to a danger pool, or other methods to get you guys to drive the story forward. You don't want that. We don't want that.

So just make a damn decision and get the game moving again. Remember, in the wise words of Gimli in Return of the King, Certainty of death, small chance of success. What are we waiting for? The only thing that has a prayer of driving a tabletop RPG story forward is by making decisions. Nothing grinds a game session completely to a halt quite like a party that stands at the crossroads touching their own fingertips nervously, looking this way and that. Don't worry about being perfect. Use the information that you have. Try to come to a consensus and make the best decision you can as a party so your DM can move

you on to the next story beat. I'll bet you and your fellow gamers would have fun doing it. Do you have a topic idea or feedback for me about the podcast? To stop you, by the way, don't send me an email telling me I'm ugly. I know that and I embraced my low charisma a long time ago. But you have other feedback about the podcast? I'd love to hear it. Please send it to me via direct message on Facebook or Insta or to feedback at taking20podcast.com. I would love to hear from you. Tune in next week, by the way, when I'll talk about how to properly use deities in your game. Hint, they're not just

big, powerful humans. Before I go, I want to thank this week's sponsor, Tubas. Did you know Tubas can be used in a variety of musical styles i mean they're made for classical music but almost every tuba is really heavy metal this has been episode 161 advice to players about dealing with indecision my name is jeremy shelley and i hope that your next game is your best game the taking 20 podcast is a publishing cube media production copyright 2023 references to game system content are copyright their respective publishers