Taking 20 Podcast - Ep 162 - Deities

Episode Date: February 12, 2023

GMs, are the gods in your game worlds present or absent?  Big and powerful or quiet and reserved?  In this episode we talk about ways you can use deities in your game and Jeremy talks way too long about the comic book series Spawn. #pathfinder #dnd #dungeonsanddragons #deities Resources: Resigned:  How to Know When It’s Time to Go:    https://gnomestew.com/making-the-gods-matter-in-fantasy-rpgs/

This week on the Taking20 Podcast. Once a character reaches, you know, about double-digit levels, that character is becoming someone who can shape the fates of an entire region of the world. If that character is playing a class where faith and deity worship matters, more than likely the deity would at least take a passing interest in that character's life. Hello there, RPG gods in every shape, form, and fashion. Thank you for listening to the Taking20 Podcast, episode 162, all about how DMs can use deities at their table.

I want to thank this week's sponsor, Swords. It takes a lot of work to come up with puns every single week. It really does require a rapier wit. Okay, I'm sorry everyone. At least I took a stab at it. Curses. Foiled again. To those of you who survived that awful barrage, I'm starting to become more active on social media, especially Facebook and Instagram. Come on by and say hi's.

Let me know what topics you'd like to discuss, and post something funny, comment on my posts, send me a direct message, whatever. I would love to interact with you more. I've had quite the uptick of listeners recently, so if you're a relatively new listener, welcome to this little podcast. I am so glad that you're here. I really want this to be an interactive experience, so if you have ideas for episodes, send them to me on social media or send them to feedback at taking20podcast.com because I'd love to hear what you want to hear. I need to begin this episode with a caveat. Nothing in this episode at all is meant to reference anything here on earth. I am not going to get into discussion of the different faiths on this planet.

not going to get into discussion of the different faiths on this planet. Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Sikh, Buddhism, Baha'i, being an atheist. I believe faith is a very personal choice. And while I have my own, that's not really germane to the topic. I mean, if you ever want to hear my thoughts on faith, I'd be happy to share them in a smaller discussion. The main takeaway from this beginning is that I'm not advocating the worship of any game system deities for you as a player or your character. However, what is relevant is faith in your game world. Deities, demigods, great old ones, beliefs, tenets, and powerful beings that are worshipped by some or all of the various peoples of the multiverse, regardless of species and ancestry. some or all of the various peoples of the multiverse, regardless of species and ancestry. Deities too many times are treated just as spells on speed dial,

and they don't get involved in the game at all beyond that. DMs, let's start with the obvious. Gods can be as involved or not in your character's lives as you want them to be. Do you want the gods to be hyper-involved in the day-to-day activities of the faithful, regularly demonstrating their power to increase their followers, making glorious, visible indications of their power? Do that. Do you prefer something closer to the clockmaker god idea, who set the world in motion and the gods are mostly distant and not messing with the creation much? Like that? Do that instead. You like it somewhere in the middle? Turn that dial to where you like it. Rules as written in Dungeons & Dragons as far back as you want to go, and Pathfinder and Starfinder since their inception, the gods are

just basically convenient explanations for how clerics, paladins, and other classes get their powers, or they're sources of possible good and bad guys for your campaign. If that's all you want out of your deities, do that. That is perfectly fine. They just hand out spells and stay out of the way. But if you do want your deities to be more involved at the table, I want to give you one word of caution. I would say it's very, very rarely that God should take a heavy-handed approach to a PC's life, especially in low-level campaigns. Think of it this way. Suppose a PC is a second-level cleric. That deity probably barely knows the character's name, much less considers

them an important cog of their faith. How many second-level clerics are running around in your world? Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands? In most game systems, survey says that it's a metric farkton, so Tyran the Believer should work their butt off to make sure they stay in the deity's good graces so they get spells tomorrow. Now, if you're running a game in, say, post-Cataclysm Kryn where there's no or almost no clerics in the world, see episode 114 for my thoughts on that, then Tyran, the second-level cleric, may be the most powerful healer that god has on a continent.

And that deity would be much more involved in that character's life. In higher-level campaigns, different story. Once a character reaches, you know, about double-digit levels, that character is becoming someone who can shape the fates of an entire region of the world. If that character is playing a class where faith and deity worship matters, more than likely the deity would at least take a passing interest in that character's life. That doesn't mean they're involved all the time, but this high-level character has a chance to influence a massive amount of people, toward or away from their faith. But does that make the gods matter at your table? Not necessarily. Back in 2007, on a website called gnomestew.com,

Martin Ralia wrote a great article titled, Making the Gods Matter in Fantasy RPGs. I'll put a link to it in the description. The key statement from that article I want to highlight is that, quote, the gods don't matter at the RPG table because GMs don't make them matter. So by extension, if you want the deities to matter in your game, my beloved DMs, you have to make them matter in some way. They have to be important in your world to have a prayer of being important to the player characters. You may be asking, how do you make gods important? How do you make them matter?

One way you can make gods important is by giving them a personality. The gods aren't just these blank slates way off in the multiverse somewhere that hand out spells, they can have a personality based on the pantheon they're in, the domains they control, and the alignment they are. In Pathfinder 2e, for example, Shailen is the neutral good goddess of creation, family, and protection, and it's said that she watches over all of existence with a kind and loving eye. Sekhmet, by contrast, is the chaotic neutral goddess of destruction, healing, and might. She commands her followers to slaughter their enemies and heal the injuries of allies after a battle. Two very different outlooks of the world from two very different deities.

Based on their descriptions, though, Shalen sounds like a peaceful, calm deity and Sekhmet sounds like a rough, battle-hardened monster. But gods can have whatever personality you want them to have in your game. Remember, DMs aren't gods. Gods are NPCs in the DMs universe. Take Shalen the artist. Have you ever seen an artist who loses themselves in something they're working on? They can become fiery and difficult, passionate, singularly focused. Shailene could easily display that side of her personality under the right circumstance. Similarly, there are beings that revel in destruction but not suffering, almost showing a tender side to those that they wound but don't obliterate. Sekhmet could easily show that side of herself to her followers at your table.

Finally, about deity personality. Alignment plays into it. A lawful deity is more likely to be rigid and set in their ways than a chaotic one would be. A lawful deity may have very formal rituals that must be performed in very specific ways. You must pour wine from a golden goblet with exactly 22 gemstones onto an altar from the north side of it starting at exactly noon. Or in a less extreme example, maybe only specific named leaders of churches can perform marriages, coming-of-age rituals, and burial rites on behalf of the

followers. Meanwhile, the chaotic good god of nature may allow for worship to occur wherever followers happen to gather in nature. Mountaintops, forests, beaches, on hillocks with sermons or maybe readings or singing, or perhaps just professions of faith by the attendees. Something to keep in mind when it comes to gods, though, is that they're not necessarily just bigger, stronger versions of mortals. The gods have their plots and plans, their machinations and desires. Yes, they could be just variations of what humans, elves, centaurs, and goblins want. More. More of something. More power. More fame. More wealth.

Or maybe just want to serve a wider variety of others. See love spread throughout the world. It just depends on the deity. Of course, in the case of Zeus, pretty much his mission was to sleep with everything that has a heartbeat, including some plants. Sure, there's nothing wrong with deities that behave like that. Knock yourself out. But they don't have to. To me, gods don't have a lot of the same cares and concerns that mortals do. Disease and sickness are all but unknown to them. The need to toil for wages or food is a foreign concept to the gods in a lot of ways. They concern themselves with other needs and concerns, growing their followers, being loved or hated or feared by millions,

gaining influence over parts of the world. I hate to use this as an analogy, but if you've seen the Amazon series The Boys, you can draw a lot of deity inspiration from that show, especially neutral and evil deities. Granted, that show is about superheroes, but the concept is the same. Powerful beings that are so far beyond mortals that their concerns start to lose importance over time. Gods are more interesting to me when they're mysterious and unfathomable. Why is the god of rivers letting the fairy capsize and drowning all the inhabitants? Maybe they see the future where the passenger seated in seat 12J becomes

a powerful serial killer who murders hundreds. So the death of a dozen in a river is a lesser evil in the gods' eyes. Another example. Suppose there's a deity who's trying to minimize the harm that befalls a particular country full of their worshippers. They have the power to intervene in one of these things happening at the same time. The death of a single king the next country over. A fire in a brothel in the god's country's town square. Maybe an earthquake across

the continent that kills 50,000 people of various species. They very well may just choose to prevent the fire and let the other two happen. From an independent point of view, it sounds like saving the 50,000 people would do the most good, but maybe not from the deity's perspective. Their demonstration of power is to save their followers, and that directly benefits the country full of their worshipers. If 50,000 non-believing people die, the deity may very well say, not my problem, as cold as unfeeling as that sounds. Before I leave the plots and plans bullet point,

one thing I want to keep in mind is that gods don't have plots and plans. They have PLOTS AND PLANS. All caps. They scheme to expand their faith, increase their worshippers over their power, thwart their divine enemies. The point being that godly plans can span worlds or even multiverses to bring about the change that they want to see. Sometimes gods can be big and showy and powerful, demonstrating their control and magnificence everywhere they can. You beseech them for aid and a giant hand literally manifests out of nothing to stop the landslide from burying your camp. Or it could be something just as powerful, but not as obvious. Maybe the weather changes to cause the loose-packed snow to refreeze. Or maybe the deity interacts in a subtle and invisible way. The leader of the camp gets the urge to break down the tents and move them

closer to the next ridge. It's said that where others see luck, the faithful see divine providence. And the gods in your world could matter by giving giant powerful displays of their existence, but they also could matter by speaking on the wind, whispering to the believers, and making big things happen with small changes. Making gods matter requires the gods present in your world, whatever that looks like. Making gods matter requires them or their representatives to be visible in some way. It could be supernatural. There are faces carved impossibly high up on the mountaintops

that represent the ten deities of the Decemberite, who rule over all. When the wind blows just right, you can hear one or more of them speaking. But the visible presence of deities could be represented by much more mundane things. Many deities have dedicated buildings for worship. Temples, mosques, synagogues, churches, cathedrals, tabernacles, pagodas, stupas. I'm running out of words and somebody's probably thinking of one that I forgot, but you get the point. The building will likely have the name of the deity and or their holy symbol prominently displayed on the building. Even deities that may not have buildings would likely have areas where

believers regularly come to worship, an area of flat rocks on the seashore, a cliff beside a deep valley. These locations will likely have signs or indicators that it is a holy place for a particular deity. That worship location, by the way, could look very different depending on the deity. It could be a place of healing and rest and contemplation, the passing on of wisdom, the sharing of resources. Or if the deity swings the other way, it could be a place where followers, believers, and penitents can come to inflict pain on themselves and others in acts of worship. Another way deities can be present in your world is through believers.

You don't have to limit holy symbols and beliefs to clerics. Jobob the farmer probably lifts prayers for a bountiful harvest to Chontia on Faerun or Erastel on Galerion. to Chantia on Faerun or Erastle on Galerion. I would imagine just before the reaping of the grain happens, Joe Bob is pretty damn devout and will toast to their deity in the pub. Believers could be seen undergoing pilgrimages or treks as part of their faith. They could be heard in crowded marketplaces preaching the wisdom of their gods, or perhaps maybe the deity is whispered of in fear. They're kidnapping people off the streets and sacrificing them in dark rituals down below the city streets. Acts of kindness or malice could be accompanied by an audible prayer to a deity.

Take this meal and may Iomide guide your steps, or in the name of Timora, may good luck find you today. Little things like that that NPCs do make your deities feel more grounded, feel more real, and they show them as a real presence in your world. Something also to keep in mind is that deities can be referred to by different names and have different appearances for different peoples. I am soaking in Pathfinder lore these days until my fingers get all pruney, so I want to praise Paizo for their thoroughness in discussing this. I first noticed it in their lore book, Lost Omens, The Mwangi Expanse, that talks about gods from the inner sea having different names and personalities in this area of the world.

Lamashtu in the inner sea, there she's referred to as the Mother of Monsters or Mother of Beasts, but the same goddess in the Mwangi Expanse is referred to as the Howler or the Child Eater. While we're talking about things being different, the shape and appearance of deities can be very foreign and strange to mortals' eyes. Deities aren't required to have two arms, two legs, and a head. They can take on a number of forms depending on their role in Pantheon. Silophir in Faerun, for example, exists in many locations and shapes all at once. A giant red and white toadstool, a morel, a truffle, a slime mold, each form having a different number of eyes and mouths.

The Great Mother is a planet-sized beholder that creates spawn to land on various planets as she passes. In Pathfinder, Grotus is the moon god that hangs over the boneyard. Arshae in Pathfinder appears to mortals as reflections of themselves to show them how beautiful they are exactly as they are. But for people who don't feel like they fit in the body that they have, Arshae appears as the mortal soul would wish themselves to be. On the evil side of things, Rovagug appears as a whirling mass of tentacles and teeth. That doesn't even count the fact that many gods can change their shape and form at will. Hell, Zeus was, off the top of my head, a bull, a snake, a bird, an ant, gold, and probably

dozens of other shapes and forms. That Zeus. Wow, man. If immortal herpes is a thing, he probably has it. No wonder Harrow is annoyed and angry with him at all the time. Now stop trying to fuck Io and get back up here. That being said, of course, if Io looked like Gemma Arterton like in Clash of the Titans, I mean, I don't really blame Zeus for trying to hit that. But of course he's married, but, you know, Gemma Arterton. I can't say I condone cheating in this case, but damn it, I understand it. Where did I go just now? One thing to keep in mind is that in the legends and stories that I've read,

assistance from deities is rarely without conditions or strings attached. I don't want to spoil what happens, but in Critical Role Season 1, one of the characters is helped by a deity of the realm, but it comes at a price. Deities who help mortals expect something in return. Rarely is that something as mundane as money or just volunteering at the cathedral on Sundays. They will want servitude, pledges of fealty, favors, especially open-ended ones. Even good deities may demand something in return. They'll save your child from the superflu, but will require you to pledge to serve the church

permanently. They'll keep a loved one out of harm's way, but they'll demand that you go on a quest in return. Now, by the way, imagine your character did that. They made a bargain with a deity to save a loved one, and that person not only didn't appreciate your sacrifice, but left your life entirely. Your sacrifice saves your spouse, a loved one, someone you're pining for,

and they up and leave you for someone else after you make the deal. Oh, that is a high-quality tragic tale with interesting conflicts that could come back up during the game and good role-playing opportunities in the future. Oh, there's that rich aroma of a good backstory to make fun to be weaving into a campaign. Now, for an ancient example, I'm going to pull from the comic book and rather mediocre movie, Spawn. After he dies, Al Simmons makes a deal with Malbolgia, the devil, to return to Earth and be with his wife. Simmons agrees and returns to Earth five years after he died. His wife had already moved on, remarried, Al's best friend. Stupid, lawful,

evil deities giving you exactly what you asked for and not what you intended. You know what? After I recorded this, I started thinking about that movie, and it does have one of my favorite quotes in it. A newly returned to Earth Spawn, with all of his power, squares up on an old homeless man who doesn't even flinch away from him. Spahn doesn't know yet that this is Cagliostro, a man who went through a similar transformation hundreds of years ago. Cagliostro simply states, no anger, no fear, no emotion in his voice whatsoever. Be careful, my friend. Every choice has its consequences. And the camera shows his arm transforming back from a sword to an arm again. Cagliostro goes on to teach Spawn about what it actually means to be a Spawn, and having returned to Earth...

I'm sorry, everyone. Sometimes he gets like this. ...chapel who is also a black ops soldier. Sorry, I was gushing a little. a black ops soldier. Sorry, I was gushing a little. Anyway, much like they do in Spawn comics, deities rarely interact directly with their followers. They're more likely to do so via avatars or other servants. That doesn't make them any less powerful or reduce their impact in the campaign. It would be one thing for the deity to directly hand the character some cash after a prayer for provisions, But if your character is suddenly approached by a stranger after that prayer who hires them to do something relatively

easy for the cash they need, or maybe the person talks to the character letting them know that they felt compelled to help them from some unknown force, that easily could be the way deities interact with your game world and how prayers are answered in totally unexpected but no less divine ways. Imagine a cleric arrives at a small town just as one of the characters needs a resurrection spell that is far beyond the local clergy. When asked, he said he felt the urge to begin traveling to visit these four small towns along the way, and he left three weeks ago, a full two and a half weeks before the character died. The cleric simply praises the deity for their foresight and uses the opportunity to help the character. The PCs pay for the much-needed

resurrection via a donation to the church, and the game moves on. If deities do interact directly, the deity may not just say, oh, go to 38th and 9th, pick up a pizza, and give it to the paladin with a falcon on her shoulder. The deity may speak to the believer in dreams and symbolism and visions. You as the DM have an advantage, though, because you probably know what's coming in the adventure. So you can use the deity's vision to foreshadow what's coming next. This gives the impression that the deities are powerful in your world without giving away the entire store of, you need this paladin to defeat the undead outside the corrupted temple. One last note about deities. They should not solve all the

character's problems. Deities shouldn't be Mary Sues that are used as constant get-out-of-jail free cards. If you use them like permanent rescuers, then the entire campaign becomes a series of deus ex machinas, literally, where you use deities to bail the characters out at the last moment and keep them from dying or being captured or experiencing hardship in any way. Hardship in a campaign equals life lessons for both characters and players. Hardship in a campaign equals life lessons for both characters and players. Characters should be expected to solve the vast majority of their problems on their own, even in worlds where deities take a direct hand in the world's inner norkings.

Divine intervention should be an extremely rare event in your game world, outside of mechanical reasons defined by the game rules. If they do step in, have them do so at a cost and possibly act through believers rather than directly. Give deities a personality and use their motivations to help design plots and plans to accomplish whatever ends they feel is best for themselves, their worshipers, or the world at large. Make them present and visible in your world, sometimes in big obvious ways, but also in those quiet and subtle ways, and I bet you and your players would have fun doing it. Do you have a topic idea for a future episode? If so, please DM me on Facebook or Instagram or send it to me at feedback at taking20podcast.com.

Tune in next week when I'm going to talk about a topic suggested by the Age of Adventure RPG, Tune in next week when I'm going to talk about a topic suggested by the Age of Adventure RPG, Fire and Realism, and generalize it into a discussion about fun versus realism at gaming tables. But before I go, I also want to thank our sponsor, Swords. Sometimes when blacksmiths are making swords, they use too much iron and the sword is too short. They should really think about using clay more. You see, it's funny because it has a dual meaning. This has been the Taking 20 Podcast, episode 162,

My Thoughts About Deities. My name is Jeremy Shelley, and I hope that your next game is your best game. The Taking 20 Podcast is a Publishing Cube Media production. Copyright 2023. References to game system content are copyrighted by their respective publishers.