Taking 20 Podcast - Ep 235 - The Why of Villains

Episode Date: August 18, 2024

Villains can be simple and driven by basic desires like power or money but I believe villains are better when they have understandable motivations and backstory.  In this episode I talk about some examples of villains and why they became what they are.   #pf2e #Pathfinder #gmtips #dmtips #dnd #villains

This week on the Taking20 Podcast… Sure, there are some who become evil because they're exposed to the Void, or dared to grasp the ruby of al-Dumjan, or were possessed by the demon lord Azuzu'ad. But many villains, honestly, I think the most fun villains, the Y originates from a believable backstory. Thank you for listening to the Taking 20 Podcast, Episode 235, an episode focusing on the evil in our campaigns, the villains. I want to thank this week's sponsor, Mirrors.

Despite this face that I have, I actually like looking at mirrors. They always make me reflect. We haven't gotten a lot of reviews lately, so if you wouldn't mind, please leave a rating and review wherever you happen to find this podcast. Spotify, YouTube, Podbean, wherever. I read all of my feedback and I take it to heart, so please leave that review if you would be so kind. Back in episode 180, I encouraged you to let your villains be villains,

sometimes making them savable but also embracing big bads who are irredeemable corrupted monsters. Nowhere in that episode did I talk in depth about villain backgrounds, what makes a villain and why they are what they are. That is what we're going to be talking about today. Now where I want to start is the difference between a villain and an antagonist. Sometimes people use these terms interchangeably, but they are actually very different. An antagonist is a very broad term,

referring to any character or force that opposes the protagonist or the PCs. They create conflict and obstacles that drive the story forward, but aren't necessarily evil or malicious. The classic example of an antagonist that isn't a villain is the police chief who can't allow the PCs to go rogue and solve problems by any means necessary. They want the PCs to solve the problem by following the law and following the rules. You know the old

turn in your badge and gun, you're on suspension. Meanwhile, a villain is a subset of an antagonist. Villains have evil intent. They often pose as a direct threat to the protagonist and are typically morally corrupt. So in general villains are antagonists but not all antagonists are villains. Makes sense? This week we're focusing on villains because they are more interesting and honestly harder to do well. So why are villains important at all? Arguably your main villain can make or break your campaign. A good villain can bring people to the table, make them want to make sure that they get their just desserts, to get their comeuppance. So a good villain can actually make your campaign more

memorable and make your campaign more memorable and make your players want to come back to your table. One of the first things I want everybody to focus on on villains is that villains are the heroes of their own story. Maybe all the way up through the point where they meet the PCs who are the good guys. Sometimes they are trying to do quote-unquote good things but through evil and illicit and horrible manner of doing so. Classic example, if you've ever played

the Borderlands series, Handsome Jack. He considered himself the hero, even called himself that directly to the hero's face. He believed he was doing the right thing. He was just misguided in his beliefs. Let's go back to the beginning. Not all villains have to be these complex multi-layered onions with all these different facets to them.

I used to call simple villains Saturday morning cartoon villains, but there aren't any cartoons on Saturday mornings anymore. So I'm just going to call them kids show villains. Examples. I can think of, if you've seen Coraline, the other mother. If you've seen a series of unfortunate events, Count Olaf. If you've seen Phineas and Ferb, then Dr. Doofenshmirtz,

especially the evil version. Well, okay, the more evil version. Sometimes your villains can be evil just for the sake of evil. You need a villain. You need someone who is going to be counter to the PCs. So this person or this thing or this force of nature is just that. The evil being has the simplest of motivations. They want money.

They want power, etc. You don't have to spend time to come up with a redemption arc for the villain. They don't even have to have their motivation revealed. Why was Darth Vader still evil after he killed Padme? Because he thought it was too late to be redeemed and didn't think he had a choice in the matter? You could have a simple villain like that that you know is evil from the first scene, for example when Vader walks down that hallway. But some villains can be made complex especially when you dig into the why a villain is a villain. Villains have to be worthy opponents. I mean, it's boring if you have a villain that the

PCs can just raffle stomp and move on to the next thing. Villains should be equal or more likely greater in power than the party. And if you want to give your villain some complexity, you have to determine what the catalyzing event was in the villain's backstory that caused them to become the way they are. Sure, there are some who become evil because they're exposed to the void, or dared to grasp the ruby of al-Dumjan, or were possessed by the demon lord Azuzu'ad. But many villains, honestly, I think the most fun villains, the Y originates from a believable backstory. There's a running joke that every RPG character has

a tragic backstory. They're an orphan. They were kicked out of the church. They ran away from home. They were accused of a crime they didn't commit and went on the run. They escaped from the military and are haunted by the things that they did. In the case of most PCs, they use this tragedy from their past to spur them into a life of hopefully doing good, saving others, slaying monsters, and the like. But villains, when faced with the same struggles, the same tragic events that spur heroes to do good, they turn inward, and they strive to make sure they aren't hurt again. The spurned lover seeks to prove their superiority by killing the one their love chose instead of them.

The orphan seeks to inflict the pain and loss they felt on others who they feel like haven't suffered enough. The abandoned cleric turns to a different deity to destroy those who sought to ostracize them. They plot to take what they feel they should be rightfully given and will go to tremendous evil lengths to ensure they get it. It's like two millionaires born into poor families. One donates part of their vast wealth to help reduce the number of people who suffered like they did versus the one who exploits everyone around them to ensure their family stays rich regardless of who suffers because of it. The best villains have motivations that are relatable and understandable.

I love role-playing villains that make players think, so if you'll pardon the phrase, there but for the grace of God go I. Had my character made a few different choices in four or five moments of their life, they could be that villain, committing the acts that they are currently repulsed by, revolted by, disgusted by. I've mentioned one of the most common motivations, villains who feel like they should have been given something that went to someone else. They were in line for the throne, or due to inherit, but it went to someone they consider

undeserving, lesser, unworthy of what was given to them. Hopefully you've all seen the Lion King, Ratatouille and Tangled by now, but if you haven't, spoiler alert for all three. In the Lion King, Scar is the king's brother, and since Mufasa has no son set to inherit the throne when the king dies, well, he's the next one in line. But along comes Simba. Suddenly Scar realizes he's not going to get Bupkus, so he hatches a plan to use the hyenas as his muscle and enforcers after he kills the king and get bupkis. So he hatches a plan to use the hyenas as his muscle and

enforcers after he kills the king and forces Simba to flee. He gets to inherit the throne he rightfully deserves, or at least thinks he rightfully deserves. And by the way, if you want more examples of people committing horrible acts to get a throne, see… well, shit, all of human history. Another example of understandable motivation is Chef Skinner from Ratatouille. He stands to make a fortune trading on Chef Gusteau's good name and restaurant lost stars or not. Suddenly, right before the deadline, a young man shows up claiming to be Gusteau's son

and inherits the restaurant, the name, and Chef Skinner is left with nothing. Did Skinner take some awful actions in pursuit of his goal? Absolutely, that's what villains do. Once notified of the existence of a son, he attempted to hide the evidence. He tried to kidnap Remy and other reprehensible acts simply because he thought he deserved what was being taken from him. A third example would be Mother Gothel from Tangled. And by the way, why did I pick all animated movies for this? I don't... am I watching too many animated movies?

Anyway, she wants to stay young forever and the sunflower is the key to that. When it gets uprooted, quite literally, and given to someone else, she gets desperate and kidnaps an infant. Yes, horrible beyond horrible. Monstrous. But if you had the power to stay young forever and it was uprooted, literally, it's understandable to want it back. In all three of these examples, the villain isn't complex, but still has motivations that are believable. Had they made different choices, Scar approaching Mufasa to ensure he'll be taken care of once the line of succession changed, or Chef Skinner approaching Gusto's son about staying on to run the restaurant and maybe even split the profits.

Or maybe even Mother Gothel. Well, there's no really good way to split power of a sunflower. But what if she had shown Rapunzel's parents the power of her hair, the song in exchange to be able to use it every now and then once a year, something like that. Maybe they would have had different outcomes. Now sometimes villains are born simply out of tragic circumstances. The first example I thought of was Hades from Greek mythology. Sure, in a lot of stories he's a right bastard, kidnapping Persephone, but for the most part

in most of the stories he's just neutral. Interestingly, by the way, as I started digging, in one account of the kidnapping of Persephone, Hades actually asks Zeus permission to take her as his bride. Persephone was Zeus's daughter, so it wasn't a kidnapping according to Greek culture. It was more like a political marriage. Anyway, Hades is associated with the underworld and death and that makes him a convenient villain in later stories, especially once the lens of Christianity is put onto Greek myth, but I do not have time to go into that. So this wound up being a shitty example, but I researched it and by Zeus it was going in this episode.

An example of a villain with tragic circumstances would be Roy Batty in Blade Runner, played by Rutger Hauer, who is stronger and smarter than other humans, but was manufactured, and he's only going to live four years. The horrible acts he commits are largely because he is a combat model replicant, and violence tends to be their answer for most problems. He killed Sebastian and Tyrell, but spared Deckard. Aha, now, the why of sparing Deckard is an interesting question, and it shows that villains can be very complex if we GMs want them to be.

In the final minutes of his life, did Roy realize all of a sudden that all life is precious, even those who are your enemy? Was it to help Deckard to realize what he was, or was it to prove that even replicants can display empathy, something that they said only humans could do? The nebulous ending of Blade Runner is one of the reasons Why I love that movie by the way, okay in the DC universe What about Bane growing up in that hellish prison and becoming a monster to survive or? Starro from the suicide squad that was kept prisoner and experimented on against its will a Raul Silva from Skyfall being tortured and

Having his cyanide capsule not work Silva from Skyfall being tortured and having his cyanide capsule not work. These are all examples of tragic circumstances that give birth to the desire for revenge against those who actually wronged them or those that the villain perceived wronged them. The third why of villains I want to talk about is rejection. Rejection by whom and for what reason varies wildly. No matter what they wanted something, opened up to someone, did everything they could, but were rejected by the thing or the person that they wanted most. A person, by the way, is the most common thing you can think about for desire.

It could be love like Maleficent. She was a fairy who fell in love with a boy who rejected her to become king. Or Frederick Zoller in A Glorious Bastards. Okay, now yes look He's a Nazi and Nazis are villains period but when Shoshana rejects him his dark side really comes to the forefront or if you want to go on the silly side I Think it was the movie my super ex-girlfriend Where a normal guy breaks up with a superhero and she winds up trying to ruin his life doing things like

throwing a shark at him. Or it could be rejection by the villains hero like syndrome from the Incredibles. Syndrome wanted to be a sidekick of his hero and and when Mr. Incredible rejected him he decided to use his gifts to make supers not so super anymore. Quote, when everyone is super no one will be. Okay, I got to get away from an animated movie, so let's go to Aldrich Killian in Iron Man 3. He's rejected by Tony Stark and becomes a villain largely because of being ignored and rejected by someone he considered his hero. As an aside and credit to my friend Kevin on this, when I mentioned this topic and we started discussing it,

he pointed out how many villains are scientists. Poison Ivy, Cheetah, Mr. Freeze, Dr. Zola, Doc Ock, Dr. Frankenstein, Dr. Horrible. My theory is that once you've been through academia long enough to get a PhD and had to deal with grant applications, administrative staff, and directions about research and education from people who have never been in front of a classroom? Anybody would turn evil. I'm not sure where I'm going with that, but it seems like scientists are a pretty good candidate to become really, really evil. But it could be villains are rejected by society at large, not just a single person. In The Grinch, for example, especially the live action version with Jim Carrey,

The Grinch wanted to be part of Whoville, but they rejected him. And so if he can't have happiness, no one can. The Penguin, Frankenstein's monster, both rejected by society because of the way they look. At its heart, villains usually want something and they haven't gotten it up until now, whether it's power or control, love, acceptance, revenge, respect, or to stop something from happening, to be seen as a hero, or just to watch the world burn. If you're designing a villain from scratch, you need to decide what that something they want is. And that's my first tip for your villain. Figure out what they want that they don't already have. Tip 2. Once you have that, decide what horrible links they'll go to

to try to get it. Are they pulling in, if I can't have it, no one can gambit, where they will ultimately try to destroy the thing they desire most? Are they trying to go to extreme links to show their power or love or capability? Make them absolute bastards. Show how they are willing to find soft spots of those who stand in their way and exploit those soft spots, whether they're family, friends, wealth, fame, or whatever it happens to be that's important to that NPC. Tip 3. Make them a mirror of one of the characters. They can have a similar backstory, come from a similar starting place, but they made different choices that led them to where

they are now. These villains become cautionary tales of what we all could become if we made those same choices. Tip number four, I love villains that are corrupted versions of positive aspects of a personality. Someone who loved transforms it to obsession or lust. Someone who is generous gradually becomes greedy. Somebody who has humility, all of a sudden over time,

it becomes boastful pride about how humble they are. They're a million times more humble than thou art. Thank you, Weird Al. Zeal and action becomes wrath and temperance becomes sloth. The villain could be somebody who initially extolled one of these amazing virtues, but took them too far and they become awful in the end. Tip number five. Make villains stronger than the party at first, but just enough that the party will catch

them as they level throughout the adventure. Good villains look unbeatable at first, like the PCs will never be able to bring them to justice, like they will never even be caught. Moriarty at first always looked like he was going to best Sherlock Holmes, and in almost every way, he was the equal to Sherlock Holmes. But Moriarty had character flaws of his own that eventually allowed Holmes to find a way to beat him.

And tip number six, my last and most important tip. Give your villains goals that run counter to what the party and or society want. That's what makes them villains. They want to rule over somewhere, conquer something, murder them just awful people in so many ways, but with parallels to the life of the hero. There's nothing wrong with a simple villain who is evil for the sake of evil, but consider giving them a little more complexity. A reason why they're evil. Think about what they want, why they can't have it, who is standing in the way, and what ends they're willing to go to to get what they want or get revenge. And I'd be willing to bet that you and your players would have fun doing it. Hey, do you like this podcast? If so, please consider posting an episode to social media

or telling a friend about it. Tune in next week when I'm going to give you some tips for beating the highest challenge rating monster in the game, Scheduling Conflicts. But before I go, I want to thank this week's sponsor, Mirrors. I consider Mirrors as the next big thing. After all, I see a lot of myself in them. This has been episode 235, The Wise of Villains. My name is Jeremy Shelley, and I hope that your next game is your best game. The Taking 20 podcast is a Publishing Cube Media Production. Copyright 2024.

References to game system content or copyright their respective publishers.