Taking 20 Podcast - Ep 32 - Player Cheating

Episode Date: August 2, 2020

Having discussed whether GMs can cheat, Jeremy focuses the lens on how players cheat and recommendations for how GMs can handle the table when players cheat.  Please provide feedback to [e-mail].

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for tuning in to Taking 20, Episode 32, Player Cheating at the Table. I'd like to thank this week's sponsor, Bidets. Do you ever have that not-so-fresh feeling in the Southern Hemisphere after relieving yourself? Give the old fart box a good rinse with a bidet. So before I get started, I'd like to ask a favor. If you like this podcast, and I sincerely hope that you do, tell somebody about it, because I'd love to see our listenership grow. I'd love to also get more feedback to feedback at taking20podcast.com.

That 20 is the number 2-0. You can let me know what you like and don't like about the show. If you have any ideas for any upcoming episodes, I'd be happy to listen to them and happy to get those things recorded. I'll obviously credit you when I do. So if you listened to the last episode, episode 31, where I talked about should GMs cheat, you know that I said that it's okay for GMs to fudge numbers and maybe even the rules to make good story beats. I have gotten some feedback on this one, even the rules to make good story beats. I have gotten some feedback on this one,

and it's been fairly loud in some cases, vicious, but still appreciated. Some of you told me, I actually got a couple of emails that said the DM should never cheat, that the dice should determine everyone's fate, and the chips should fall where they may. If that's the way you run your game, I am definitely not going to tell you you're wrong.

However, I think a little fudging can make for a better story, and it does give you another tool that you can have in your arsenal to pull out when you're wrong. However, I think a little fudging can make for a better story, and it does give you another tool that you can have in your arsenal to pull out when you need it. I consider it less cheating and more adjusting on the fly. Get ready to call me a hypocrite. I said it's okay for GMs to do this. I don't think players should do what I described in the GM episode. It's cheating when they do it. Players? You hypocrite! Players should not be able to play with the rules, adjust their die rolls, and make changes to what happens,

because the die rolls when it comes to players should be sacrosanct. But it's not just die rolls. There are two different categories of types of cheating that we can talk about. I'm going to talk about types of cheating that you can do with dice, and some types of cheating that we can talk about. I'm going to talk about types of cheating that you can do with dice and some types of cheating that players do that doesn't involve dice. When it comes to with dice, there are four examples, but I'm sure if we all sat around, we could probably think of others. Number one, players fudge or lie about the numbers that they roll. They claim they rolled an 11 when the die actually says a one. They say it's a seven when in reality it's a 6 They roll the dice sometimes and they'll snatch it away So they can claim whatever number that they want Or they roll their dice behind this massive pile of books

Or even, as one player did, bring their own DM screen set up to roll behind They roll with what I call the hover hand Where you roll the dice on the table and then they leave their hand over top the dice So they're the only ones that can see the number that was rolled. Sometimes this shows up at the beginning of campaigns when ability scores are rolled. Oh, I rolled the ability scores at home. So they show up to session zero with, Oh my gosh, this is awesome.

I rolled all my ability scores at home and the lowest number I rolled was a 17. Uh-huh. Let's just say I am more than a little dubious. Is it possible? Absolutely. And you know what? Me being a geek, I went and did the math. The percent chance that happened for six ability scores, rolling three dice and getting a 17 or higher on all six combinations of three dice, four billionths of 1%. So in other words, if you rolled six 3d6s and totaled them up, that's going to happen once out of every 21.2 billion times you rolled the dice. It is hard to believe someone got that lucky rolling dice alone. Die rolls are in the game for randomness, and randomness means there's a chance

for failure. So if they're lying about what the dice rolled, they're effectively trying to make sure they never fail when it comes to rolling an ability score, making a skill check, trying to roll to hit. Taking that randomness out of the game means you might as well just say, okay, how do you guys win today? Way number two. What I affectionately refer to as, gosh, math is hard.

I rolled a nine, my modifier's a plus 12. That means I got a plus 31. I'm not talking about the occasional mess up. Look, some people are good at doing calculations in their head and some people aren't. That's not what I'm talking about. Mistakes happen. I'm talking consistently doing the math wrong and it seems to always be in the player's advantage. Multiple occasions over multiple sessions, weeks, months, or maybe even years. The player doing it so much that you start noticing it as a DM. Number three, players that pre-roll dice. Rolling d20s before combat starts, and then when you ask for initiative, oh, they already have their value in front of them. So in between combats, you'll hear things like...

And then suddenly it'll stop. And then you say, okay, what's your initiative? Oh gosh, I rolled a 19 plus my initiative modifier is a plus five. That's a 24. That's called pre-rolling dice. So they roll before combat starts to try to get a high initiative modifier. Or they roll d20s multiple times in combat. It's not their turn, and you can hear them. So you say, okay, Marcus, it's your turn. And over there, Jeremy's going... What'd you do, Jeremy?

Nothing. what did you do jeremy nothing and then when it's jeremy's turn he just happens to already have rolled a high number to hit oh let's roll a 16 plus a 9 that's a 25 to hit so what he's doing he's pre-rolling his dice he's basically trying to get multiple bites at the apple it's cheating and there are variations of this by the way rolling damage dice multiple times. So you'll hear them basically rolling multiple dice in their tray, picking up a couple every now and then. And Oh, look at that on three V six, I got a five, five and a six. Number four, hitting the table after a roll, trying to change the value that they rolled. So they roll a dice and they go

trying to change the number on the die. Oh, look, that went from a three to a 16. That's not bad. Look, we all get frustrated sometimes. I get it. Don't smack the table trying to get a better value. I mean, again, it's just a type of cheating. So let's talk about cheating not involving dice. Number one, misleading the GM about where they were on the battlefield. This is obviously easier to do with theater of the mind. If you play your game theater of the mind without a battle map, the player could say, if you play the game theater of the mind without a battle map, the player could easily say, oh, I wasn't next to the river. I was behind the tree on the other side.

No, I wasn't within melee range of that monster. You can even sometimes do it on the map. Battle map in front of you and they will shift their miniature around the map, a five foot step here, a five foot step there, to make it more advantageous for them and less advantageous for the monsters. This is no different than playing chess and shifting the pieces around on the board where you want them when the other player looks away. Other types of cheating not involving dice. They'll change the values on their character sheet. They'll give themselves more hit points, better armor class. Sometimes they'll give themselves too many skill ranks or skill feats. Sometimes they'll claim their characters have abilities or capabilities that they just don't have. Again,

or capabilities that they just don't have. Again, cheating. Three, changing important aspects of the character's backstory. Maybe as soon as they find out that the adventure is moving to the Moonshade Islands, they say, oh, my character's from there. Hang on, I thought in session zero you said you're from the Western Heartlands.

Nope, Moonshade, always been Moonshade. Born Moonshade, probably die in Moonshade. Stop asking questions. Using dice or not, all of these things are cheating. Period. End of discussion. Hard stop. And honestly, they're variants of lying. You're lying about your character's stats. You're lying about what you rolled. You lied about where you're from. You're lying about where you are on the battlefield. But you may be asking, hold on, if the GM's allowed to cheat, shouldn't players be allowed to cheat as well to try to make it fair? Well, let's get to that. What's the crux of my problem with cheating is that it's unfair to the

other players. It creates inequity. It can cause hurt feelings. It can cause players to feel like they're not as important to the group. Look, players have limited visibility into the status of the battle. They might know their current stats and their current status, and they might even know the current stats and status of their fellow PCs, but they don't know that of the NPCs, the baddies, the monsters. They don't know the next story beat. They don't know what will happen if they fudge numbers one way or another. know the next story beat. They don't know what will happen if they fudge numbers one way or another. You as the GM do. In the previous episode, I said I was fine with GMs cheating in small doses occasionally. Only when you're comfortable as a GM and understand your table, and as long as you're not doing it to play against the players, a little fudge here and there is okay. Players, if they're

allowed to cheat, will be tempted to do it often. When they want to be the hero. When they don't want to let their fellow players and characters down. When they think the dice are being unfair. When they think the adventure is unfair. When they think the GM is unfair. Maybe they want to feel more important to the story, or maybe they just want to feel like they're winning. So, what can you do as a GM?

Communication is key. Players should understand that if they cheat, they will need to leave the table. You can't have a game where four out of five players play by the rules, but one doesn't. It's not fair to those playing by the rules. And if one player gets away with it, the others will most certainly try to cheat. The second thing you can do is if you roll for ability scores instead of using a point by or character history based method, tell all of your players that rolls will be made in front of everyone during session zero. Out in front of everyone in a communal dice tray. If they show up with a pre-filled out character sheet,

oh my gosh, look, lowest number I got was a 17. I'm very sorry, you're going to have to re-roll all of your ability scores. Or shift to using a non-rolling for ability scores method. Like I said, using point by or character history based method. Third tip, if you see a player cheat, meet with them one-on-one between sessions or during a break. Have the conversation discreetly with the player. Same rule applies to management as applies to being a DM. You praise in public, correct things in private.

Let them know that you saw what they did and that it's not allowed at your table. They are going to deny. They are going to backtrack. They're going to claim you didn't see what you think you saw. If you saw it that clearly and you know that they are cheating, inform them of it. You're not here to debate whether or not they did it, but if they did and it continues, they will be asked to leave the table. Four, if you think someone is cheating with their character sheets, collect them up at

the end of the gaming session. Scrutinize them between sessions when you've got more time. Check to make sure the players have the right number of feats, abilities, etc. Making sure they're tracking the use of their limited use abilities properly. Just make sure everything's on the up and up, and if you'll pardon the term, according to Hoyle. Five. If one player comes to you and accuses another player of cheating, thank them for letting you know, but make sure you let them know that you're not going to tell them what happens next. What happens next will be between you and the player that was accused of cheating.

You can choose to talk to that player if you want to, but personally, I just keep a closer eye on that player in the future to see if I can see the type of cheating that was described to me. 6. If the player is cheating, one of the things you can do is take away their preferred method of cheating. If they roll d20s a lot and stop when they hit a good number, insist that all d20 rolls are made after the action or attack is announced. No more, I searched for secret doors, look down, I rolled a 17 plus 14 perception, that's a 31 on my check. Nope. You need to say, I'm very sorry, you'll need to roll for that check now.

But I rolled before I announced it. Roll it again, please. If they have a habit of rolling dice behind a pile of books, insist that all player rolls be out in the open, ideally where everyone can see them, but definitely where you can see them. You can use a communal dice tray for the table. Make or buy a big, nice dice tray and put it centrally so it's visible to everybody. Or you can use an online dice roller, log on to your virtual tabletop of

choice and use it for player dice rolls. Or the most extreme thing I would even consider, roll for the player. When it reaches this point, you are clearly telling the player that you cannot trust them with their die rolls and you'll be doing their dice rolling for them. If none of these fix it, then the only thing that you're left with is asking them to leave the table. Whatever method you use, just make sure you give these rules to all the players so no one can claim they were being singled out.

So am I a hypocrite? You hypocrite, how dare you? Yeah, maybe. I think it's okay for the GM to fudge when needed. I think the GM knows the situation better than the players do. When a player fudges numbers, he or she is trying to gain an advantage over the monster slash NPC and his or her fellow players. As long as the GM is fudging numbers to make the experience better for all the players, I don't think there's a problem. One of my main rules about DMing is that fun is more important than story, which is

more important than rules. The player may be thinking, if I fudge my dice rolls and hit more often, I'm having more fun. Yeah, you're having more fun at the expense of the other players. Your fun stops at their nose, and you and your actions are affecting their enjoyment of the game. Listen, one of the gifts I got for Father's Day, and I love it, it's a shirt that my wife found that said, bad roles make for good stories. And I love that line because it's absolutely true. While it hurts to miss a skill role that you should be good at, while it hurts to be ineffective for an entire combat, while it hurts even more to lose a character you've adventured

with for seven months as she plummets to her death off the side of a cliff, bad rolls make for good stories. If you're a player and you feel compelled to mislead others about your dice rolls, values on your character sheets, where you are on the battlefield, you're trying to rob the entire table. You're requiring the GM to put forth additional effort to police player actions around the table. You're cheating your fellow players out of a fair game where the same rules apply to all. Finally, you're depriving yourself of a good role-playing experience and a chance to bond with your fellow players. You are risking your fellow players' trust and potentially even their friendship over a misguided belief that you must be the biggest badass around the table. It's not worth it. It's a game meant for everyone to enjoy.

Player cheating usually revolves around quote-unquote wanting to win. It's important for you to know that you can't win Dungeons & Dragons. You can role-play your character, live vicariously through an adventure, have fun with friends old and new as you experience these things together through the world of imagination. But whether your character saves the world or fails in his quest, it's still the story and it's still a good time with friends. If you're a GM and you think a player is cheating, you must step in and do something about it. When it comes out that a player is cheating, and eventually it will, if you do nothing about it, you're giving tacit approval to player cheating. will. If you do nothing about it, you're giving tacit approval to player cheating. And at that point, you've lost control of the campaign, your players, and most importantly, your table. So do you agree with me? Disagree with me? You think I'm full of crap? Please send me an email

to feedback at taking20podcast.com. I would love to read it and I would love to hear from you. So once again, I want to thank this week's sponsor, Bidets. Hey, if you got poop on your arm, you'd use water to scrub it off, probably soap and water. Why should your chocolate starfish be any different? Thank you for listening to Taking 20, episode 32, Player Cheating at the Table. My name is Jeremy Shelley, and I hope that your next game is your best game.