Taking 20 Podcast - Ep 79 - Demons Devils and the Blood War

Episode Date: June 27, 2021

The Blood War isn't good vs evil.  It's evil vs evil.  In Dungeons and Dragons Demons and Devils have been battling it out for millennia in what's known as The Blood War.  What do we know about this conflict and more importantly, how can you use it in a campaign?

Welcome to the Taking20 Podcast. I want to put a bit of a disclaimer and a warning at the front of this episode. Those of us that are older Dungeons & Dragons players remember the days of the Satanic Panic. In the early 80s, D&D came under fire from various social and religious groups worried that the game was controlling kids' minds, leading them to worship dark and sinister forces like demons and devils. Others claim that playing the game led to a tendency of young people to commit suicide. Numerous studies, of course, have proven that this is not the case. Tabletop RPGs are now being used as therapy to treat depression and anxiety. Further, thanks to numerous popular programs that show these games actually being played,

such as Critical Role, Glass Cannon, Dice Camera Action, and countless others, more people have been exposed to what tabletop role-playing games actually are. An opportunity for friends to come together, make memories with one another, collaboratively tell a story, and hopefully have fun doing it. Also, they do a shitload of math together, but that's just a fringe benefit. So why start this episode with a warning? Because this episode's all about devils and demons in the context of tabletop role-playing games. In no way, shape, form, or fashion am I claiming that any of these creatures or individuals discussed in this episode are real. Playing D&D is no more of an avenue for dark and sinister forces to enter your life than watching sports or watching television.

If playing tabletop role-playing games makes you believe that creatures like these exist and they are speaking to you, please reach out to someone about what you're experiencing, a loved one, mental health professional in your area, someone. Finally, if you're considering suicide or self-harm, please contact a suicide prevention hotline. In the United States, please call 1-800-273-8255. It's not weakness to seek help. I want to keep you around because I'd love to have you sit at my table and slay some make-believe dragons together. Now, on with the episode.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for tuning in to Episode 79 of the Taking20 Podcast. This week about demons, devils, and the blood war. This week our sponsor is Breakfast. Even if you're not sure what to have for breakfast, just make a decision and don't waffle about it. Please give us a like and a subscribe wherever you happen to run into this podcast, whether that's on YouTube or any of the other podcast providers. I would love for this podcast to grow, but I need your help to do it. I first read about the Blood War while preparing to run an adventure

in the Planescape setting of D&D 2nd Edition. I was immediately hooked. Painting with an overly broad brush, most adventures and even fantasy sci-fi stories of the time weren't complex. It was good versus evil, heroes versus villains, good guys versus bad guys, and the stories were, frankly, relatively simple. The Blood War was different. This was evil versus evil, and not the classic trope of evil minions

turning against the leader or evil factions turning on each other at the last minute so the good guys win. No, this was two different types of evil warring with each other for millennia over the philosophy of what evil should be. The war featured frequent incursions into each other's home planes and conflicts spilling onto nearly every plane and planet, including the prime material plane where most D&D adventurers take place. It's not overselling it to call it the greatest conflict in the multiverse, raging for eons with no end in sight. So why can't they just kiss and make up after all this time? To understand that, we need to talk about demons and devils. In the interest of full disclosure, Pathfinder and Starfinder do not have an equivalent demon and devil war in their official

universes. To me, though, that smells like you could make one up if you wanted to. Same thing would be true for GURPS, Traveler, Blades in the Dark, Fate Core, Delta Green, or any other game system. It doesn't have to be demons and devils. It could be the forces of the King in Yellow versus Yig, or worshippers of Goofy versus Pluto to figure out which one's a real dog and which one's an abomination born out of the unholy union between man and beast. In 5th edition, information about the Blood War can be found in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, which was released in 2018. When Tome of Foes first came out, I didn't rush out to buy it. Oh, I'm sure it's interesting, but I'll just wait and finish

some other reading. Wait, there's a whole chapter on the blood war? Move, please. I gotta go to the bookstore because I am not waiting on two-day shipping for this. Om nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom. Wait, that just made it sound like I ate the book after I bought it. I didn't, I promise. But don't get me wrong,

it'd be interesting if we learned that way. Mom, I just ate alphabet soup and I can spell everything now. I'm pulling in some older information from 2nd edition, 3rd edition, and 4th edition to augment the Blood War information in Mordenkainen's, because each edition releases a little more information on it. So let's start with devils. The most common devil species is what's called the Beatazu. They are overwhelmingly lawful evil. They have a code that they follow, even if it's a twisted one. They are usually motivated by power, the accumulation of it, and maintaining it. It doesn't matter what type of

power you're talking about. Physical, political, social. They want more. Always more. Devils are the orderly representation of evil. They believe in contracts and rules, order and hierarchy, plans and plots. All of the stories about mortals trading their soul for something, in RPG terms, they're making pacts with devils. Devils follow the rules of their superiors while scheming on how to become more powerful than their superiors. Occasionally through combat, but more often through outmaneuvering, outthinking, and outplanning them. When devils fight, it's with a battle plan in an orderly manner with well-rehearsed execution and military precision. In Pathfinder, devils primarily live

in hell. In D&D, they live in the Nine Hells. Now let's contrast that with demons. Demons are representations of the destructive side of evil. The most dominant species there is the Tanari. of the destructive side of evil. The most dominant species there is the Tanari. Demons are born from malignant souls who are exposed to the raw chaos of the abyss. Thus, the demons are overwhelmingly chaotic evil, as opposed to the lawful evil nature of the devils. While there are types of demons like Oberiths, Tanari, Lumara, Nashruz, Marilith, Vrox, etc. Demon forms are as varied as you can imagine. Three arms? Teeth on the end of a huge proboscis? 72 eyes? Sure.

Muscular, fire-breathing, six-legged penguin with empty eye sockets and speaking fluent Fritch? Sure, why not? Demons are malignant, uncontrolled agents of chaos. They have a hierarchy that's primarily determined through might. If you can kill your superior, you can become the superior. But if you can't kill the superior, you better follow their orders while they're paying attention, or they will kill you. Demons outnumber devils, but the problem is that demons regularly turn on each other due to their chaotic nature, sometimes mid-battle. When demons fight, it's not orderly or planned, or maybe not even with any common sense. They overwhelm their opponents through sheer force and number of combatants. If you've seen Avengers Endgame,

think about the Battle of Wakanda. The quote-unquote space dogs that were fighting for Thanos is a species known as the Outriders. That would be close to the way demons fight. The difference is that demons are intelligent, whereas the Outriders were effectively mindless. To use an archaic term to describe the way demons fight, they zerg rush their opponents. Individually, they are much weaker than devils, but use their sheer numbers to overwhelm them. Battle of Thermopylae aside, it's hard to hold the line when you're outnumbered hundreds or thousands to one. They count on this chaotic, overwhelming tactic to break through the orderly devil lines during battles and wreak havoc in the background. Demons live in the abyss,

which is connected to the Nine Hells via the River Styx. Now let's talk about the Blood War timeline. In second edition, the Blood War was spelled out in a book called Hellbound of the Blood War. The war was hot and started well before mortals even existed. There were constant incursions by each side through known and unknown pathways between the planes of existence. The River Styx became a major thoroughfare from one plane to another. When 3rd edition rolled out, the Blood War was largely sidelined during this venerable version's existence. A couple of publications have offhand comments like the fact that as long as devils and demons exist, they'll try to kill each other, but mostly it

wasn't referenced. In 4th edition D&D, the Blood War had become closer to a Cold War, with the two sides at a lengthy stalemate. According to 4th edition lore, a possible start of the Blood War was discussed, more about that in a moment. And then in 5th edition, little is mentioned about it until Mordenkainen's was released, and it's taken a bit of a backseat to other types of adventures. But let's get to the heart of it. Why are devils and demons at war? We don't know exactly what started the blood war. The 2e supplement mentions a meeting between Beatizu and Tanari where each side tried to kill and torture the other.

After multiple encounters between the two, they decided, I hate you, and that was millennia ago, and they haven't stopped. At the heart of the conflict, though, is the fact that demons are chaotic evil and devils are lawful evil. The battle is over which kind of evil is superior, and the greatest impetus, though, is the struggle between law and chaos. They're trying to change the face of evil. That's as far as you need to go as to the why of the blood war. Some fiends actually embrace the war as a way to stave off the boredom of eternal existence, both devils and demons.

Funny story, though. The battle between the two had stopped for a time, and the Celestials and other forces of good were getting a little nervous that the two sides were going to team up against the forces of good. But a Baelor, which is a high-level demon, sat in a chair belonging to a pit fiend,

which is a powerful devil, and refused to move. And just like that, the war was back on again. In 4th edition, one of the theories put forth about the beginning of the Blood War was that the devil lord Asmodeus stole a shard of the seed used to create the Abyss for his own power. The demons are waging war because they want that shard back, and they want to bring it to the abyss. So what does the war look like? It's a constant state of flux. It started as skirmishes and then squads, battalions, and finally now we have whole armies trying to kill each other.

There are regular battlefields, however, and we can't go over all of them, but one example is the Field of Nettles. This is a regular battleground between two tributaries of the River Styx. Each side periodically will mount an offensive from this 90,000 square mile area where the land itself feeds on your blood, and scavengers of meat and equipment pick over the countless dead that remain. The war between the two will rage hot for a time, and then each side will retreat to their home plane, regroup, replenish their numbers, and then one side or the other will mount a new assault. But there's a third group I haven't mentioned up until now. The Yuggaloths, or Daemons. I know Daemons sounds like demons, but they are

very different from one another. Daemons are neutral evil, or tend to be neutral evil. Yuggaloths are like a separate species from the other two, and they are mercenaries that will fight for either or sometimes both sides at the same time. They sell their services to the highest bidder and will swap sides sometimes in the middle of a battle. They ride the fence between the two groups as much as possible. Some believe that this group is what's behind the blood war, because when the blood war ends, the apocalypse will begin and the Yggdrasil stop getting paid. The Yggdrasil themselves believe that the Blood War was their own personal experiment into the nature of evil, one which they created and will ultimately end on their own terms.

So how can the Blood War be used in your campaign? The Blood War is rich with possible adventures. If nothing else, have the players wake up on the banks of the River Styx due to a soul routing error, teleportation issue, or their first-level characters and happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. The Blood War can be a backdrop to your campaign. The campaign could revolve around a major artifact that the PCs are trying to claim to keep it out of the hands of both devils and demons, but devils and demons are sending their own agents to try to collect it as well.

Players could be drawn into the Blood War and have to take a side. To keep this episode as short as possible, I haven't mentioned the other races that take an interest in the Blood War. The Modrons, the Celestials, the Mortals, and a small group called the Balance, who strive to keep both sides from enforcing their victory conditions across the many planes of the multiverse. Devils want to bring all the planes under their rule. Demons want to destroy them all. You could force the players to make a deal with one side or the other. The players may need something from a devil or a demon, and they're forced to do something that benefits one of the sides. Like bring them a powerful item or bring them souls. Souls are currency in the Nine Hells and they're everything from food to trade goods to potential underlings if they're able to rise in

power. Maybe the players have to perform a task for the demons or devils to go somewhere the demons and devils cannot and retrieve something. There was a campaign I ran a long time ago where the big bad was trying to break a seal on a great old one. The big bad and the players discovered that the ritual had to be performed at a specific castle along the River Styx. I believe I called it something like the Cragspire Hold, but it had the nickname of the Crag. The Crag was right on the battle lines of the Blood War,

and at that moment in the campaign, the demons tenuously held the castle. The big bad had to make it to the Crag was right on the battle lines of the Blood War, and at that moment in the campaign, the demons tenuously held the castle. The Big Bad had to make it to the Crag because the demons wanted him there, and had assaulted the castle specifically for the Big Bad to perform this ritual. The Great Old One was a sealed away greater demon, and its release would make a major player in the Blood War. The players had to go to the Nine Hells, survive there long enough to speak to the Devil General, and I don't remember her name, but convince her of what they knew and get her to commit troops to an all-out assault on the Krag. Cue a climactic battle where the PCs had to lead groups of devils through a chaotic battlefield to breach the walls of a demon-infested fortress. They had to stop the ritual before Dolgrath the Destroyer could be released from his Demiplane prison.

By the way, one of my players was a paladin in that campaign and a great role player. He was not happy about having to make a literal deal with the devil. After the big bad died, before he could be tempted, he planeshifted home and spent the rest of his life atoning for what his character considered to be a majorly sinful act. Another way you can bring the Blood War into your campaign is that the war spills over into the material plane like the Sword Coast. Suddenly, our deep forest is the front line of a major destructive battle between the forces of evil. The players have to go save the innocents in its path, contain it, stop it, or move it off the material plane before the planet

is overrun by these forces of evil. Another way you can bring the Blood War into your campaign is by having a third party, the Modrons, Celestials, or even the Enigmatic Balance Group, contact the party to secure some relic, slay some powerful member of one side or the other, or work to counter some minion on one or the other sides. Finally, if one or more of your players are tieflings, you can have mom or dad to show up at their doorstep and bring them into the conflict. If you've never heard of the term, in D&D and Pathfinder, tieflings have one devil parent and one mortal parent. Thus, mom or dad shows up and says, hey, we need your help.

Thus, mom or dad shows up and says, hey, we need your help. So let's get down to it. Four tips for successfully incorporating the Blood War into your campaign. One, remember that you shouldn't shoehorn a decision onto your players. If you want them to pick a side, devils, demons, or a third party, present the players the options and let them decide how to proceed and with whom they'd like to team up. They may show all three sides the middle finger and decide they want the Arboretum staff for themselves. Now you have tons of potential foes to throw at the PCs,

because four or five different factions all want that staff, and the PCs are free agents and they're not protected by anyone. Second tip, start small. Don't let the PCs know they're getting drawn into the Blood War. They know they're trying to rescue a cursed town from an undead former ruler who wants to continue ruling, but only late in the game do they realize that this undead king is a demon-possessed spirit who... Holy crap, I think that's the plot for Diablo.

So follow that! Third tip, many demons and devils can shapeshift. Important NPCs the players interact with could turn out to be on one side of the conflict or the other all along. Maybe different NPCs are using the PCs as pawns to try to counter other NPCs' sides and wishes and desires. All the PCs know is that they keep fighting demons and devils and only later realize how they've been used the entire time. Fourth tip. Always remember each side's ultimate goal of the blood war. The devils see the blood war as a fight to prevent all planes from being destroyed, yes even the good ones. The demons want to destroy the planes for the sake of reveling in the destruction

and to return part of the chaos seed to the abyss that Lord Asmodeus stole. There is so much more here I want to talk about, but I am starting to run out of time. Like any war, there are arms dealers on both sides that supply weapons. There are spies and double agents who can shapeshift and pose as the other side for a time. Chaotic creatures called the Slotty, the City of Sigil and its ruler the Lady of Pain, the Scarlet Jungle, the Plane of Carceri, and so many other great topics. These topics are great deep dives. If you're interested in any of these topics, please let me know via the Facebook page or via email at feedback at taking20podcast.com. The Blood War is a very deep well of lore and mythology to draw

on. Wars in general make good backdrops for campaigns and sources for adventures. Since this particular war has been raging for eons and contains very powerful creatures on each side of it, it can provide a wide array of combat, social encounters, and other opportunities for heroes to be heroes, villains to be villains, and sometimes for one to become the other. The next time you're searching for an idea for your next adventure, consider using the Blood Wars as your backdrop. Consider having your players fight against devils or demons and have to make a deal with the other. The game will certainly be memorable for you and for them, and hopefully you'll have fun doing it.

Tune in next week when we talk about social and non-combat encounters. How to give those charismatic and skillful characters the chance to take the spotlight. I hope that you tune in and listen. If you like this podcast, please tell your gaming group and your gaming friends about it. I'd love to get more ideas about gaming topics and feedback about the podcast, and that happens with more listeners. Once again, I want to thank our sponsor, Breakfast. Is it the most important meal of the day? Maybe. Whether or not it is, it's easy to get egg-cited about it. This has been Episode 79, all about demons, devils, and the blood war.

My name is Jeremy Shelley, and I hope that your next game is your best game.