Taking 20 Podcast - Ep 84 - 3-Dimensional and Underwater Combat

Episode Date: August 1, 2021

Adding aerial or swimming combatants to your battlefield can make things very complicated very quickly.  It doesn't help matters when the different game systems are so different in the way they handle these situations.  In this episode, Jeremy talks about the challenges, reasons to persevere through those challenges, and tips he's learned running these complicated combats. Tune in next week when I'll talk about what I wish I'd known when I started playing Dungeons and Dragons

This week on the Taking20 Podcast. Do you have to find an ultra-realistic method to handle your underwater combats or aerial combats and make them super gritty and feel grounded in physics? Fuck no. Absolutely not. Every group likes a different balance between the rules being realistic versus fast, loose, and fun. Find the balance that works for you, find what your group likes, and stick with it. that works for you, find what your group likes and stick with it. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for tuning into episode 84 of the Taking 20 podcast. This week,

about three-dimensional and underwater combat. This week's sponsor, pools. If you find a warm spot, you're in trouble. Please like, subscribe, rate, and if you're on YouTube, click that little notification bell. Also, do you have a topic you'd like me to cover? Please leave a comment or send me an email to feedback at taking20podcast.com. Now hold on to your butts. I'm about to say something very, very controversial. In my experience, most gaming tables are flat and their tops are two-dimensional. I know, right? Most maps are flat.

Most combat occurs on a single plane. There might be some hills or trees or sand dunes or ruined cars for someone to stand on, give themselves a little bit of elevation. But combat that truly embraces what's happening in the air is really kind of rare, which is probably why a lot of us GMs, myself included, are bad at it. Yeah, I said I'm bad at it. Timit Noske, know thyself. I'm living very much in a glass house here. To be honest, I even hesitated making this episode. I have my little shortcuts and tricks that I had figured out, but I'm not going to claim they're ultra-realistic or maybe

even make sense. But I challenged myself to dig deep and do more research, get better at 3D combat, put the work in so I could make this episode. Consequently, I'm not afraid to say that this episode required more research than the last probably three to four episodes combined, and I loved every minute of it. I put my thoughts together, grabbed some friends that I knew, ran a one-shot using some three-dimensional rules, and the more I did it, the easier the rules became to understand. They salvaged a ship that had been lost years ago, and some electric eels and a shark had taken up residence inside. If you'll pardon the term, I guess I had to be thrown into the deep end of underwater combat to really understand it. I either had to learn to swim or drown in the rules. Before I get started, do you have to find an ultra-realistic method to handle your underwater combats or aerial combats and make them super gritty and feel grounded in physics?

Fuck no. Absolutely not. You're in a world with elves and trolls and teleportation or a science fiction world with jump gates and alien creatures from beyond the veil and laser rifles. Every group likes a different balance between the rules being realistic versus fast, loose, and fun. Find the balance that works for you. Find what your group likes and stick with it. So let's talk about some of the challenges of 3D combat. There's a ton of them that make it more difficult than regular old combat on a plane. Challenge number one is that the most basic problem, how do you represent height on a two-dimensional battle map?

Matthew Colville had a video about flying combat on his YouTube channel where he advocated using the method that I use to keep track of flying creature height, dice. He advocated using a d12 to keep track of the number of five-foot squares the creature is above the battle map. So if a giant eagle is

flying at a height of 30 feet, you'd keep a D12 with a 6 on it close to the miniature since it's 6 5-foot squares above the ground. If during the next round it soars up to 40 feet during its movement, you change the dice facing from a 6 to an 8 because it's now 8 5-foot squares up. I do the exact same thing and been doing that for years except I use a D20 instead of a D12. It lets flying combatants soar up to 100 feet without having to find a different solution rather than 60 feet that you're limited to with a D12. The other thing he talks about are acrylic stands, and I've used these just a few times. I own one set, but I just don't pull them out very often. It's a newer solution, and there's a number of manufacturers that have these nifty, clear acrylic stands that can hold a miniature up to a certain height. They have clear blocks that they can attach so that you can move them up and down as needed around the battle map.

They do take up some space, but they are a great solution to incorporate flying creatures. Finally, if you're on a virtual tabletop like Foundry or Roll20, most of them have a built-in mechanic to display the height of a creature or object using a little number beside of it. Elfie was the witch character in my Reign of Winter campaign and flew every single combat. While we remote-gamed during COVID, her player got very good at keeping track of how high her character was flying using Roll20 and a little blue number field. Those are some ways you can keep track of character height on a map, but what if you don't use a map? One of the other challenges is remembering height details using theater of the mind. I mean, it can be just as complicated. If I were to use it, or the next time I do use it with

flying combat, I'll ask my players to keep track of their height and declare their height whenever they move. Challenge number three of three-dimensional combat, measuring distance from one combatant to another. On a two-dimensional surface, if the paladin cannel is six squares away from the goblin dog, he is six times five feet or 30 feet away. Easy peasy. But what if cannel's flying? He's six squares horizontally and eight squares vertically, so 30-foot horizontal distance and 40-foot vertical distance. The way to measure this distance varies from system to system. In the 5th edition and Pathfinder specific sections coming up, I'll talk about those differences. But whatever system you use, you need to have a way to measure

this three-dimensional distance. Challenge number four, and it's a variant of challenge three, three-dimensional spell effects. We're used to spells that have 15-foot cones, 30-foot emanations, 20-foot squares, or 120-foot lines. On a battle mat, no problem. A lot of us have tools like acrylic measuring sticks or pre-built templates that we can lay down on the battle mat and see what squares are affected by that cone of cold, fireball, or black tentacle spell. Add in a third dimension and things can get wonky. That fireball doesn't affect a 20-foot radius circle, it's a 20-foot radius sphere.

That cone of cold is a 60-foot cone, so how high is it along the entire length of the cone? Can you fire a cone at a 45-degree angle at a combatant? Who remembers the SOHCcahtoa rules from geometry? Hang on guys, let me calculate the inverse hyperbolic cosecant of the shape of this spell effect to determine damage. If you're not careful, you can spend 20 minutes

figuring out whether two creatures are affected by a spell using protractors, a scientific calculator, and a bunch of arguments. Your player, I cast that spell at precisely 37.44 degrees. Okay, then another argument starts about whether a player could be that accurate. Challenge number five. Three-dimensional combat and flying contains rules that we rarely use. I mean, the muscles we use are the ones that get stronger. Most of us just don't use 3D combat that much, so we're just not good at it. And flying combat rules can get complicated as shit in a hurry. When do you make fly checks? What's the difficulty class? What's

the penalty for failing the check? Can a PC or creature hover in place? All kinds of challenges. But there's some great things about 3D combat. I mean, most DMs, myself included, tend to limit the combat to traditional fight on a single plane. No judgment here. But what's the purpose of gaming? Honestly, let's get back down to the heart of it. Gaming is about social interactions, having fun, spending time together, and sometimes to make player characters feel like weapons-grade badasses in a badass world. And what is more fun and sounds more badass than flying on a battlefield? Standing in the saddle of a giant eagle swinging your battleaxe at the fire drake

as it tries to tear a hunk out of your flesh 80 feet off the ground. If you eliminate 3D combat altogether, you're robbing your players of feeling powerful, doing amazing things, and being big damn heroes. Flying adds realism to certain encounters and allows monsters to be more of a challenge. If you remove the third dimension from combat, what, do dragons just walk around on the ground all the time during combat, ignoring these massive wings and huge flying advantage they have? These wings? They're ornamental like the fins on a 1957 Chevy Bel Air.

Many creature abilities are based on their ability to fly. Their estimated encounter difficulty is based on the creature using those flying abilities. So if you take away that third dimension, you're nerfing your monster encounters by not being more tactical about their ability to fly. Flying encounters add variety. I mean, most battle maps have limited 3D capability. Adding a flying encounter breaks up the monotony of just fighting on a bridge, fighting on a hill, fighting in a plane, and it allows different classes and creature abilities to shine. And while we're at it, flying creatures and flying combat makes your PCs reevaluate their tactics.

That barbarian who loves to just rage and charge all the time will need to come up with something different when the drake is 30 feet off the ground and laughing at the big axe-wielding woman because she can't reach him. So how do you encourage players to embrace a three-dimensional combat? So how do you encourage players to embrace a three-dimensional combat? Even when presented with a potential three-dimensional combat, a lot of players, especially new players, will tend to stay in their two-dimensional thinking. If you're building a 3D encounter, figure out some ways you can encourage players to use that third dimension. Scatter buildings and trees around that they can climb to gain advantage or some sort of additional vision that they didn't have. Give them allies that can help them move in the third dimension, like a flying mount or a

co-combatant that can help your allies gain elevation. Think of the clinch-up Legolas from the first Avengers as Iron Man takes Hawkeye to the top of a building. Give their characters items that let them boost themselves up. Boots of leaping, flying brooms, a flying carpet, things like that. Take a lesson from some monster hunting games out there. There are a ton of games out there where you fight creatures the size of a damn parking garage, and they have more hit points than should be possible, and it takes a long time to kill them. Unless you find that weak spot that's between the ribs, or on its head, or between its 6th and 7th testicle. Whatever, work with me here.

There's some freaky monsters in those games, is all I'm saying. Make a bad guy that's easier to hit from the air. Give the PCs a way to discover this crucial fact, and that can turn the tide of a battle. Alright, so let's get specific. Let's talk about 5th edition, where you have someone flying on the battlefield. One of the problems I put forth was calculating distance, but 5th edition makes calculating distance very easy. If you know how far foes are away straight vertically and straight horizontally, then you know the distance. It's the larger of the two values, hard stop.

For example, if a creature is 30 feet up and 40 feet away horizontally, then the range between the two creatures is 40 feet. This is because in 5th edition, diagonals are always 5 feet away. Put a miniature on the grid, then no matter what direction you move, each diagonal or each straight square is 5 feet. Now, that's not the way our universe works. I was watching a Q&A session with the great Matthew Colville a while back, and when asked about flying combat, he said, it's easy because the D&D universe is non-Euclidean, and I nearly spit out my drink. He went back and made a completely separate video

where he expanded on that answer, and it's actually a very simple solution. Because of 5th edition's rule of it's five feet in every direction, it makes the math so much easier. No Pythagorean theorem, no debates, no, well, this is more of a 30 degree angle, so I think, nope, all of that gone. One square horizontally, one square vertically, five feet. Whichever one's the bigger, there's your distance. I love 5th edition solution because it's so much easier to calculate distance. Even if it's not realistic, who cares? In a world where people can summon fire and devils

exist and elementals and vampires are there, ditching the Pythagorean theorem is the least of your realism worries. So in 5th edition, let's talk about some general flying rules. For 3D combat, remember that every creature can break up their movement with an attack, meaning they can make part of their movement, attack, and then complete their movement. So an eagle could drop 20 feet, rake with its talons, and then get some distance away during its turn. Encounter distances in the air can be much greater

because it's so much easier to spot a flying creature. I mean, there's no trees and shit to get in the way. You and that dragon may spot each other, hell, 10 to 15 miles away from each other, long before you can start exchanging bow shots and breath weapons. So there may be a long buildup to encounters. Also, in 5e, if a flying creature is knocked prone, their fly speed drops to zero, or they can't flap their wings, it falls.

Pathfinder. Pathfinder 3D combat is way more complicated than 5th edition. But then again, most things in Pathfinder are way more complicated than 5th edition. With Pathfinder, distance measurement isn't as easy as 5th edition. Diagonals aren't always 5 feet away, and every other one is 10 feet away. 3D distance uses the Pythagorean theorem to determine the distance. Some groups do approximations of Pythagorean Theorem, but a lot that I've been in have a bunch of engineers in it, and I love you guys to death. A squared plus B squared equals C squared makes an appearance when three-dimensional combat shows up. Flying is a tremendous advantage during combat in Pathfinder.

I mean, movement speeds are different among the various ancestries. combatant pathfinder. I mean, movement speeds are different among the various ancestries. Rules like difficult terrain can slow combatants down and really make the combat field a little more varied, but flying takes all of that away. Who cares if it's half speed through rubble when you can just float above it? Many of the rules are the same, you just have to extrapolate to the third dimension. Players take up five foot cubes instead of five foot squares like they do in a two-dimensional mat, and they threaten all five-foot cubes around them when it comes to attacks of opportunity. Think of this, though. Pathfinder combatants, especially spellcasters, live and die by what's known as the five-foot step. It's a free five-foot movement that doesn't

take up a move action or a standard action and does not provoke an attack of opportunity. In most combats, a spellcaster will take a five-foot step away from a melee combatant take up a move action or a standard action and does not provoke an attack of opportunity. In most combats, a spellcaster will take a 5-foot step away from a melee combatant in order to cast a spell so they don't get stabbed in the face for it. However, if a spellcaster is on the ground and I can hover 5 foot over them, I threaten not only their square with an attack of opportunity, but a 5-foot square in every direction they could possibly step on the ground. So in short, being able to fly and hover is better than the feat Step Up in Pathfinder First Edition.

Being able to fly makes even melee combatants so much more powerful. I mean, ranged characters even more so. Oh, you're charging at me because I'm wielding a bow? Pfft, alright, whatever, now I'm 30 feet up. Charge at me now, Minotaur, while I just pepper you with arrow after arrow and you can't reach me. Flanking rules still apply. You still have to be directly opposite an opponent to get a flanking bonus. One attacking horizontally from the ground and another directly above will not provide

flanking bonuses. Tripping, overrunning, and bull rushing buy you very little against a flying opponent unless your GM wants to play fast and loose with the grapple rules. Other general bonuses. Tripping, overrunning, and bull rushing buy you very little against a flying opponent unless your GM wants to play fast and loose with the grapple rules. Other general Pathfinder 1st Edition fly rules. Anyone making a quote tricky end quote maneuver while flying has to make a fly check with various DCs. They vary from DC 10 for moving less than half speed while flying, DC 15 for hovering or turning more than 45 degrees, DC-20 for turning 180 degrees or flying up greater than a 45 degree angle.

There are DCs given for remaining at the same height, taking damage, negating fall damage, and a ton of other checks. You descend while flying at double speed and you ascend while flying at half speed. Fly checks aren't made as a separate action, they're part of another action. There are wind effects, size effects, maneuverability effects, In short, Pathfinder First Edition flying has a ton of nitinoid little rules that can really

make the game complicated. But as I've said before, you're welcome to abstract as many of those rules as you want. So let's step up to Pathfinder 2nd Edition. Three-dimensional combat in Pathfinder 2e, a little different. They simplified so much in 2e and tied it to the three-action economy, which I love, by the way. Moving up or greater than 45 degrees is considered difficult terrain, so it costs you two squares of movement for each square that you move. Moving down greater than 45 degrees moves you at double speed. If you fly to the ground, you don't take falling damage. You can use an action to fly zero feet to hover in place. If you're airborne at the end of your turn and you didn't take any fly actions as part of your

three actions this round, you fall. You can attempt a maneuver, and it leaves it up to the GM what a maneuver is. Flying against the wind, doing an Immelman turn, a split S maneuver, and it says, hey, GM, you just set the DC for this. You worry about it. Much, much simpler in second edition than first edition. All right, so let's go back to just generic tips to make three-dimensional combat easier for you.

Number one, have some method of tracking height. Dice is the cheapest method. We all have way too many dice. Just attach a dice to the very, very close to the bottom of the miniature so you can track how high it's flying. For spell effects, make an approximation based on the spell's description, even if it's not hyper-accurate. Determine a simple toggle whether something's in the spell effect range or not. It doesn't matter if it's right in the middle or right on the fringe. Would it be in the effect? Yes? Okay. Make a saving throw. Don't get a huge argument about it at the table, and make sure your players know this.

We're going to make approximations as to whether this would work. DM or GM, you make the call and move on. No matter what game system you're using, have a cheat sheet with the unusual flying rules available to you. Go ahead and brush up on those rules before you drop flying combatants in the field so you'll have the basics down before combat actually starts.

Finally, you and your group just decide where you want the balance is between fun and realistic. All right, I am running out of time, so let's talk about underwater combat. The great secret about underwater combat is it's just flying combat with a risk of drowning thrown in. Treat sea level as the ground and track how deep the combatants are. The same techniques would work, though. You'll just need to know the three-dimensional space of any confined area they swim into, like a shipwreck or underwater cave. How high is the

ceiling there? How deep is the floor? These measurements will come up should combat break out. Now, I mentioned there are drowning rules, and the rules for holding your breath can get complicated fast. In 5th edition, you can hold your breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 plus your constitution modifier, and then you have one round or you begin dying. In Pathfinder 1st edition, you can hold your breath for a number of rounds equal to double your constitution score, and you're reduced by 1 at the end of your round, and any round where you take a standard or full action, yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda. Make sure you memorize those before you do underwater combat. Pathfinder 2nd edition, you can hold your breath for 5 plus your constitution modifier

number of rounds, reduced by 1 at the end of your round, or 2 if you attacked or cast a spell, yadda yad for 5, plus your constitution modifier number of rounds. Reduce by 1 at the end of your round, or 2 if you attacked or cast a spell, yadda yadda yadda yadda. Just know what your game system rules are. Starfinder, Delta Green, Cyberpunk, Paranoia, they're all different. Bone up on them before you start running a game when possible. Combat underwater is tough, by the way. With 5th edition, melee weapon attacks have disadvantage unless it's a dagger, javelin, short sword, spear, or trident. Ranged attacks automatically miss beyond the weapon's normal range and may have disadvantage within that range

at DM's discretion. Pathfinder 1st edition has all sorts of weird rules about melee weapons underwater and ranged weapons take a severe distance penalty. Second edition, slashing and bludgeoning attacks take a penalty and then ranged weapon distance is cut in half. Spellcasting. Fifth edition, good news. Rules as written, you can cast spells underwater thanks to a tweet by Jeremy Crawford in 2016, but there's a ton of disagreement and arguments about it online. Pathfinder first edition, you have to make a concentration check and fire spells either don't work or they're replaced by steam. Second edition, no fire spells underwater, period. By the way, most creatures can swim to some degree. No matter how much I flap my arms, I can't fly, but I can drop my fat ass in a pool and backstroke

like an MF-er. Again, to some degree. Drop this same fat butt in the ocean, and all I'm going to do is feed the sharks. Underwater has reduced visibility. We can't see as far in the water as we can up in the air. Plus, deep water gets dark fast, especially turbulent or having a lot of particulate matter in it. Most game systems reduce visibility to somewhere between 5 and 60 feet, depending on the water. But largely it's the same. Same challenges of measuring distance, spells are different, keeping track of depth. Same solutions for tracking height can be used to track depth. Have rules cheat sheets available to you. Many of these limitations I've mentioned here are thrown out the window for creatures with a swim speed.

They treat underwater as their native habitat, and they likely don't have the same limitations we landlubbers do when we venture out into the ocean. They're not taking disadvantage on attacks, they're not flat-footed, they can and will punish characters for entering their domains. Very quickly, let's get to some tips for underwater adventures. DMs, if it's an extended trip under the waves, don't be afraid to have pockets of trapped air that can serve as oases where the players can replenish their air supply. By air supply, I mean the ability to breathe, not the British Aussie soft rock group from the 70s and 80s. I am all out of love for them. Keep notes on how tall or deep confined spaces are that the characters can enter. Creatures with a swim speed can do so much more underwater than most characters who don't have one. Make these creatures nimble, foreign,

scary. You're in their world. Make the PCs realize that. Follow a lot of the same tips for tracking depth as tracking height while flying, and underwater combat soon will be fun for you as well. I apologize for going a little bit long today. I know this was a lot to cover and I went about as fast as I possibly could. If you'd like additional detail about any of these topics that I covered, please feel free to let me know. I'd be happy to cover it more in depth. Before I leave though, I want to thank our sponsor, Pools. Check out my swimming pool with all the scum growing on it. Hashtag no filter. This has been episode 84, Three-Dimensional and Underwater Combat. My name is Jeremy Shelley, and I hope that your next game is your best game.

The Taking 20 Podcast is a Publishing Cube Media Production. Copyright 2021. References to game system content are copyright of their respective publishers.