Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 18: Chade-Meng Tan

Episode Date: June 1, 2016

Chade-Meng Tan was employee No. 107 at Google. But the software engineer's career took a turn when he began teaching meditation to the company's employees and executives, adopting the job title of "Jolly Good Fellow." While he's no longer at Google, Meng -- as everyone calls him -- continues to meditate and has written a new book, "Joy on Demand," detailing how anyone can access joy through meditation. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

Back in the day, we used to call those mix tapes. Just like you do that with music, you can do it with podcasts. So if you're looking for episodes about anxiety, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes. Or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes, or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist for that. We've even put together a playlist of some of my personal favorite episodes. That was a hard list to make. Check out our playlists at 10%.com slash playlist. That's 10% all one word spelled out..com slash playlist singular.

Let us know what you think. We're always open to tweaking how we do things and maybe there's a playlist we haven't thought of. Hit me up on Twitter or submit a comment through the website. From ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. I guess today was employee number 107 at Google. He was hired as an engineer, but that his career took a kind of a strange little twist.

He ended up spearheading the effort to teach meditation to the employees and executives at Google. His name is Chad Meng Tan. Everybody calls him Meng. He wrote a book about his experiences at Google called Search Inside Yourself. And now he has a really interesting new book called Joy on Demand. It's interesting on a million levels, but one of the things that I like about it is, you know, most people talk about meditation as something that'll make you reduce your stress

or make you calm, but man is shooting for joy. So we're going to talk to him about what he means by that specifically. If you like cartoons and corny humor, this book is definitely for you. If you don't like either of those things, the book is also for you because I think you will see in its pages and you will hear in his voice right now a sort of precise intelligence. Mang, my friend.

Thank you for coming on the show. Thanks for having me, my dear friend. I should, and we should say right up front that we are friends. So just in the name of full disclosure, I should also say that we're recording right up front that we are friends. So, uh, just in the name of full disclosure, and I should also say that we're recording this in San Francisco, which is not far from where Meng, uh, lives. Uh, so I have a million questions, but I'll just kind of start at the beginning. Uh, how, I'm just curious about how you started meditating.

There's an interesting quote in your book. Uh, you, you described yourself as an unhappy dude as a young guy. You said, misery was my constant companion. And this constant companion smelled like it hadn't showered since Nixon was president. How bad was it and why? It was really bad. It was so bad that I understand why it's like to not want to live. It's that bad.

To not want to live. Yeah. So so people other people who have that issue, I get it. What was the source of that? I mean, life in general, but more than that, I think I had a low happiness set point. It could be a genetic thing. I lived most of my life at that time. If nothing was happening, I was just miserable.

my life at that time. If nothing was happening, I was just miserable. And then something shifted. And then later on, when nothing's happening, I'm jolly. And that transformation was life changing. And do you credit meditation or maturation? Marriage? What? Definitely meditation. How and when did you come to the practice? Almost my accident. So I was miserable. And then just Depatkan di meditasi. Apa-apa dan kenapa kamu datang ke peraktaan? Maksud saya, saya berguna. Jadi saya berguna dan kemudian sebelum saya tiba-tiba, saya berguna ke percayaan dengan kembali kembali kembali kembali. Saya ingin hanya satu sentiasa. right in the middle of the lecture,

dia berguna, ia berguna di kawal diberitahu kawal di bawah. Saya menggunakan keawan-kawan saya. Ini adalah setiap segala-satunya. Semua segala-satunya di dalam hidup saya. Dan itu moment saya beritahu saya, dari ini moment saya sekarang, saya beritahu dan saya akan mempunyai meditasi.

Apa itu kawan-kawan itu menggunakan dengan awak? Kaudi-meditasi, itu adalah idea yang saya mencari, saya sebenarnya tahu, bahawa kawan-kawan saya bisa mengambilkan. I'm cultivating the mind. It is the idea that my mind, I suddenly realize that the state of my mind is something I can change. And not just change. It suddenly occurred to me that I can change it drastically.

It somehow got it, but in retrospect, I don't really knew how. I mean, now I know, right? But how do I know back then? Not clear. But that is the thing that I'm always trying to point out to people that the radical and empowering kind of insight of meditation is that this that you can work on your mind.

You can train it just the way you can train your bicep in the gym. That's just a huge thing to learn. I didn't learn it at 21. I learned it in my late 30s after being a complete idiot for a long time. So, but you you you write about this in the book, you struggled a lot with meditation because you're so intense. Yes. You know, I mean, you're not, you know, seem intense right now, but you were really intense

and just kind of success oriented, results oriented, young engineer. You tell me a little bit about that struggle. I was trying to hot. So I mean, I learned meditation like most Americans type A personality. The idea is, okay, we sit, I have no thoughts, right? Or don't be distracted or something. That's the idea I used to have. So, I would just put a lot of my attention on sit.

I did a lot of strain. You were gripping and gripping a lot of grit. But by the way, you were raised in Singapore, right? Correct. Okay. So this was all happening in Singapore or hit you up. Correct. Okay.

How many Singapore? And then I just find myself stressed and unhappy and it just didn't work. My friend wondering anyway, I wasn't relaxed. I was still stressed. And so, and then one day I just gave up. But I had my vow to learn meditation. dan kemudian saya beri saya, saya beri saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya, saya, saya beri saya, saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya beri saya, saya, saya beri saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya beri saya, saya, saya beri saya, saya, saya beri saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya beri saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya beri saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya, saya berguna di saat ini, saya tidak bisa berguna. Dan therefore, saya bisa berguna di saat ini, saya tidak bisa berguna di saat ini. Ada orang lain di saat ini, mereka tidak bisa berguna. Itu berguna. Jadi, dan kemudian saya tidak buat apa-apa,

selepas 10 minit, saya berguna di saat saya berguna. Dan kemudian, untuk masa pertama, saya kata saya beri saya. Dan itu untuk masa pertama, saya tahu apa yang saya suka untuk mempunyai kebangan dan masih beri. Dan kata-kata, bukan untuk jadi tanpa. Dan dari masa same-tidak, sesuatu yang terjadi, yang terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terd terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terdapat terd terdapat terdapat terd terd terdapat terdapat terd terdapat terdapat terdapat terd ter What happened? Which was very strange. We said, I find myself enveloped in joy. There was nothing that was happening. I was just joyful.

And that was my first experience of joy, independent of sense stimulation. But okay, so what do you mean, would you use the word joy? What are you describing exactly? I'm describing a quality of emotionality, a feeling. So the difference between joy and happiness. Happiness is more of a long-term thing. They can do a long-term, how to say it, it's a summation of life's moments and look at it as a whole, say, I am happy. Joy in contrast, so in other words happiness is not a emotion, it is not a mood, it is not a moment thing, it is an integrated long-term thing. The mood is not a moment thing. It is an integrated long-term thing.

Joy in contrast is a moment thing. It's a moment at the moment feeling of pleasantness and pleasantness. But I can know pleasant without feeling what I would describe as joy, but I may be misunderstanding what joy is almost certainly, because there are lots of pleasant things in my life that they don't necessarily give me joy. I guess your argument would would be they're not giving me joy because I'm not attuned correctly to them. Actually, it goes beyond that. I think one of the most important thing I've ever learned in my life is that the mind in and off itself, in other words, the mind in this default mode is joyful. And it's default mode is joyful. Correct.

Now my mind. Not yet, my friend. Actually, it is. You just have to discover it. Or uncover it. Uncover it. I like that. That's one way to look at it, which is sometimes we look at

we see that the baseline is unhappiness and with the build happiness on top of that. By the reverse, is that the baseline is happiness. And it's obstructed by things that allow us to access it. So all you have to do is deconstruct the obstruction. And happiness is the joy is already there. And that's what meditation does, just chip away, the sort of calcified layers of confusion,

delusion. That's one way to see it. And I don't want to see it. So, one way to see it, that's a long-term thing. And I don't want to see it is a very short-term thing, which is that the mind is when it's calm and clear at the same time. That is when you access the joy that's always there.

And the analogy is the air conditioning in this room. That is always there. That the sound of air conditioning. dan kemudian, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata always there. The only thing you need to do to access it is to quiet the mind and pay attention. Shut the hell up and get out of the way. Shut the hell up and be there. Right. So, so we started talking about joy, but I want to come back to it, but I want to get a little bit back to you. One of the things you say that you realized as a very type A dude was that you had assumed that success would lead to happiness. Yes. You ended up coming to the conclusion that it was the other way around. Yes.

Walk me through that. So I was raised, I'm Chinese. I was raised in Asia. And we had this Chinese thing, the Tiger, the Tiger Mum thing. That your mum and Tiger Mum? dan kita ada kecemasan kecemasan kecemasan. Kami kecemasan kecemasan? Tak seperti kecemasan yang paling lain, tapi kecemasan kecemasan kecemasan. Jadi, kita selalu berkata,

kerana kecemasan yang berkata, kecemasan yang terlalu berkata, dan kecemasan yang terlalu berkata, kecemasan yang terlalu berkata, kecemasan yang terlalu berkata, kecemasan yang terlalu berkata, kecemas, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, kemudian, or makes sense. It's like, all things equal, who will you buy from? You buy from the Grand Pigai or the happy guy? It can't be referred to buy from Grand Pigai. And how much more, it turns out, about 37%?

Yeah, but okay, so if your boss isn't a better to be feared than loved? No, the studies, the research says that is so, so, so, so, so the first question, do the choose between being loved and being effective as a boss? Dan kemudian, kata-kata, kata-kata, kata-kata, kata-kata, kata-kata, kata-kata, kata-kata, kata-kata, kata-kata, kata-kata, kata-kata, kata-kata, kata-kata, kata-kata, kata-kata, kata-kata, kata-kata, kata-kata, kata-kata, kata, kata-kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata Mereka melihat bahawa most efektif dan kecil efektif yang lebih baik adalah menerima di dalam kumpulnya. Mereka melihat segera. Mereka hanya ada segera. Mereka yang terbaik yang lebih baik, mereka memperbaikkan orang dan mereka memperbaikkan orang.

Mereka yang lebih baik. Mereka yang terbaik. Mereka memperbaikkan orang yang lebih baik. Mereka yang terbaik. Semua perkara yang terbaik. Mereka memperbaikkan orang yang terbaik. Mereka yang terbaik. Mereka yang terbaik. Mereka yang terbaik. which is the more, all other things equal, of course, the more your people love you, the harder they will call you. And then the more you succeed as a manager, it's as simple as that.

How did you get the idea to bring meditation into Google? And when you first proposed the idea that people look at you like you're out of your mind? I did that for a very simple reason. I have a dream. And all I want to do was to create the conditions for world peace in my lifetime. And I did that for a very simple reason. I have a dream. And all I want to do was to create the conditions for world peace in my lifetime. That was all. Okay. Now I've heard you say this a million times before.

And I always wonder, like, do you actually mean that? Because people talk about world peace and it can be an empty, an empty, you know, platitude in the world peace. It's almost like a joke. But you talk about the wanting to create the conditions for world peace in this lifetime. Do you actually mean that? And what specifically do you mean by that? Yes, I do. And the difference is I'm an engineer. So the engineer, the first question he asked himself is how, and the next question he asked himself is how. So the way I see it, there are two pillars to create a

conditions for world peace. The first is ending global poverty and environmental destruction. That's one pillar. The second pillar is something I call global enlightenment, which is inner peace, inner joy and compassion, scaled worldwide. And I think each of these pillars by itself is ...saya akan mempunyai penyakitkan dan penyakitkan. Saya rasa setiap penyakitkan di dalam kebanyakan... ...sebabkan kebanyakan, kebanyakan, kebanyakan, kebanyakan. Saya rasa... ...saya akan mempunyai penyakitkan dan berbual. Saya rasa...

...saya akan mempunyai penyakitkan dan berbual. Saya rasa... ...saya akan mempunyai penyakitkan dan berbual. berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya ber become more successful, this is how you get more profitable. And where peace, joy, compassion is a necessary and unavoidable side effect, then they will spread. And then the question is how. And I figured it out, and it is to, it is emotion intelligence. So training people to become emotionally intelligent through mindfulness Then I can help people succeed where they necessarily also a quiet peace joy compassion And so that was my starting point and then I started selling this in Google And I made no secret I made no secret about this in about both those aspects which is first is this is a success curriculum This is a leadership curriculum and I'm doing this for low peace di dalam bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa bahawa people to say profit, that's heretic or something. But it turned out really well. It turns out people get it.

Especially in Google, the thing about Google is people are very smart and very curious. So some last percentage, I'll then say they're willing to try. Some percentage said this is all hippie bush and they're willing to try. I mean, I came to my class and he told me in those words this is hippie bush but but he stayed he stayed in the class he listened he listened with curiosity and I told him I gave him the science and everything and he was convinced and he came back the next week and the week after and so on. What do you think of the critics of corporate mindfulness because there are many who who believe that this is kind of a perversion of the Dharma. I think that they're the hard side in the right place.

It's good to be concerned. It's good to be concerned about people and it's good to be concerned about the purity of Dharma. And I think those critics that are coming from there. So that makes me happy. And also it gives me honest. So the way I see it, I am doing this work as a upaya. Upaya means skillful means, means starting from where the student is, rather than from where the teacher is, and then helping the student get into upward trajectory. Right. And starting from student is in the corporate world means success and profits. The challenge is doing this while preserving the purity of Dharma.

And I think the way to do that is first, how should I say it? I tell you how not to do it. The way to not do it, is to have only the relaxation piece. Saya beritahu, ini adalah itu, itu bukan lagi. Saya rasa, the way to do it well is to include all three pillars of practice, or three pillars of Dharma

in the practice of copy mindfulness. And the three pillars are first, the calmness of relaxation, second, insight and wisdom, and third, I think most important of all, kindness and compassion. So in designing my classes, I'm very careful to include all three.

And I hope that by doing that, I am keeping the Dharma, Pyo, and benefiting people in the corporate world. You're in a funny position, and... Aha, funny. You're in a funny position. And and a funny. You're in a funny position. And I actually am in the same funny position because both of us are committed believers in the importance of bringing meditation to everybody,

no matter what you're preexisting religious beliefs are or if you're just a committed nonbeliever as I am. Yes. And yet, both of us are open and avowed Buddhists. Yes. So, I'm just curious to hear from you how you handle that, because you're very open about being a Buddhist and yet you're teaching meditation in secular environment. Yeah, I don't see what is the contradiction.

You don't, and I don't, but most people buat kerana mereka rasa buddhasilnya. Itu yang terlalu fungsi. Saya tak tahu, sebenarnya saya mungkin lebih buddhasil, saya membuat saya minta diri. Saya beritahu, apa yang saya buat, saya membuat salam-salam. Saya membuat keadaan saya dalam hidawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa saya membuat bahawa membuat bahawa saya mem because if we only serve a certain small population of self-procant believers, then we are not doing justice to humanity and to Buddha and Dharma in my opinion. But is it a barrier? Because search inside yourself institute, which you now started as something that was this meditation slash emotional intelligence curriculum that was being taught inside. Google is now being taught at other corporations,

but you're going around writing books and being on podcasts and giving speeches where you talk about the Buddha and your solemn vow and all that stuff. The people say, I don't want you to come into my corporation. You're a Buddhist, I can't do that. I'm gonna be drummed out by my Christian or Jewish or whatever, employees.

I haven't had that problem yet, and I'll tell you why. The first thing is, the first reason is that ...saya tak ada yang terlalu selama ini. Saya akan beritahu awak. Saya sangat berguna untuk menggunakan dengan Dharma dan berguna dan berguna. Dan Dharma saya berguna di sini sebagai lelaki-lelaki. Lelaki-lelaki, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terperlalu, terper especially relating to suffering and liberation from suffering. And you find that Dharma is not exclusive domain of Buddhism. Dharma is everywhere in every religion and even in secular ethics. So you're just like teaching universal law and the practices allow us to become better human beings. So I think and also as you see in the curriculum, it's very scientific based on science. Jadi saya rasa dan juga, saya juga akan melihat di kurusnya sangat berbual di syarikat.

Dan kita sangat berbual untuk menggunakan langkah yang ini secara. Jadi, untuk example, untuk masa yang lama, saya menggunakan B. Bukan. Bukan, Bukan. Jadi, apa yang kamu buat? Suprasih baik. Jadi, berbual di mana? So how did that work out? Surprisingly well. So tell your story. One time, I was giving a speech. I wouldn't tell you who or what I went. I was giving a speech.

And then I forgot to return the year piece as I was done. There's caught in me off the stage. I forgot to ask for the year piece back. So I was backstage. I had to go. Here was one stage. And so the vice chairman of the company invited me. They came on stage. And he said, literally behind my back, he says, Dan jadi keadaan keadaan keadaan, mereka datang keadaan.

Dia beritahu, seperti itu, seperti itu, dikumpulan. Saya beritahu, saya bukan Christian, dan itu dikumpulan. Dan apa yang dia hanya beritahu di kata, saya beritahu apa yang dia beritahu. Saya beritahu, wow, dikumpulan, dia beritahu, itu satu-satunya. Jadi saya sangat gembira, dan untuk saya, saya rasa ini berjaya. So I was very happy and for me I felt that this working, right? I mean my my carefulness in in supporting Buddhism away from Dharma and Dharma away from secular teaching so that I can reach the world is this working I think. I think there's some evidence to support that view. So you let me just talk a little bit more about you specifically. And then when I want to talk about the book, you make repeated references in the book actually,

to the fact that even after you started meditating, you had periods of real despair. Oh yeah. What's going on there? Well, I'll come to life, my dear friend. In life, there's always despair. I mean, things happen. Data does. So you're not one of these types who goes around saying you start meditating and everything. All your problems will be solved. As your practice deepens, you find that more and more problems are solved. Or rather, actually, there are a couple of levels. One level, few and fewer things become problems.

Right. Right. And then when there are problems, they're more likely to be resolvable. And when they're not resolvable, they're more likely to be managed. You retired about a year ago, about six months ago, six months ago. Okay. Sorry. And I remember getting the email announcing your retirement and you, one of the things you said you were going to do is start meditating three hours a day. How's that going? Not going well. I managed to do it for 40 days and 40 nights. If I figured I owe myself at least that. Right. And then what happened? So I tell this joke which unfortunate is true, which is I'm working on four things and each one is taking a half my time. Jadi saya beritahu ini jok, yang terlalu berlaku, yang saya beritahu pada 4-4 hari, dan semua orang beritahu saya hal- hal saya. Jadi, 40 hari dan 40 hari, saya beritahu bahawa kalau saya beritahu itu,

saya akan beritahu itu, saya akan beritahu lebih lama, saya akan beritahu lebih lama, dan saya akan beritahu di situ. Jadi sekarang saya akan beritahu seperti 75 minit hari. Itu bagus, ya? Saya beritahu itu. So now I'm down to like 75 minutes a day. That's pretty good. So it sucks. And I'm hoping that over time, maybe in the end of the year, I'll be read. I have fewer things to do in the book being out and so on. And then I can read, I can go back to three hours a day.

I'm rooting for you. So let's talk about the book. You, it's just filled with all of these very practical pieces of advice. Joy can sound like one of these words that we throw out. We don't really talk about. We don't really know what we're talking about when we talk about it, but you're very precise. Not only in your, you sort of carve up all these different, all these different types of joy, but also in your very precise in how in these little exercises that you give the reader about how one can generate joy. So you just walk, I'll let you pick whatever you

want to talk about. What are some of the ways in which we can either generate joy or just to tune, be a tune more tuned to the joy that naturally arises during the course of a day? Can I give three suggestions? You can give me the floor of yours. Okay. So the first suggestion is this. This is a 15 second practice. But I tell you why it is. It's a three-breath practice. It's a practice about five seconds. Three breaths. Yeah. Okay. The first breath, you bring full attention to the process of breathing. So I call this stepata, kata.

Ketika kedua, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata Dan anda maya mencari ini yang sedang berlaku. Ada beberapa jual di sana. Dan percaya, di mana-mana, di mana-mana, setiap jual ini terbaik, di jual ini dan di diri sendiri. Kuala-kualan yang mencari, di mana-mana, di jual ini. Kamih dan bodi, di jual ini. Maksudnya, atau mungkin hanya merek terbuka, saya mahu jual ini. Kamihkan jual ini. Or maybe just even thinking, I want to be joyful, it's conducive to joy. Combine all three together in 15 seconds. You find joy arising already.

So is it going to be the kind of joy that I would experience if I won the lottery or the kind of joy that I would experience if you know, you know, 15 years old in the prettiest girl in the school was willing to go on a date with me. What kind, is that what I should be expecting or is it more subtle? It's more sadder. It's's more subtle and it's more sustainable. So the thing about winning a lottery and having a gild going is that it doesn't sustain itself for very long.

It's a number of seconds, a number of minutes, also a number of hours, maybe days. But the time I've enjoyed it that I'm talking about, and there's a technical term, suka, Sukie Hj, and some people translate it as low non-energetic joy. So the joy that doesn't require energy. And because it doesn't require energy, there are two features. The first feature is very subtle. And second feature is extremely sustainable. And so once your mind is subtle enough to see it, to experience it, it is, you can sustain it for really long time. So it's, there's a difference between excitement. Yes, enjoy. Excitement we get when we bite into a candy bar or, you know,

watch a great movie or with all these, these, these sort of work-a-day pleasures that we get, we get. That's different from what you're talking about. Yes, again, the technical term for that form of joy is piti, p iti, which means I again, sometimes translated as energetic joy, sometimes translated as rapture, but not so sustainable, not so sustainable. That's a fun feature. The other feature you find is that wherever there's pity, there's always sugar, but not vice versa.

So wherever there's an energetic joy, there's always something to enjoy, but not always there's a little. Hey there listeners, while we take a little break here, I want to tell you about another podcast that I think you'll like. It's called How I Built This, where host Guy Razz talks to founders behind some of the world's biggest and most innovative companies, to learn how they built them from the ground up. Guy has sat down with hundreds of founders behind well-known companies like Headspace,

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Wondery app. Okay, so back to your three-breath exercise on the third breath when I'm inviting joy. I mean, I've been meditating for a little while. I'm not some master, but I wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't feeling joy because I've been doing this last couple of days. Is that, um, does that mean I'm a terrible meditator? Or I'm just not looking for the right thing? What's the deal?

Did you try smiling? I didn't try smiling. Uh-huh. So that's it. The thing about smiling is, the thing about face and emotion, the face expresses emotion by also the other way around. What is in the face also affects emotion. So maybe try that, a full smile or a half smile, whatever that means to you and see if that works. And there are lots of other, can you tell us some other ways that you...

So that's one. Another way to increase joyfulness in life is to notice thin slices of joy in real life. Jadi itu satu. Pada satu yang menerima jual, adalah menggunakan jualan kacau di dalam jualan kacau. Pergi, saya terlalu kacau, saya menggunakan kacau dan menggunakan kacau. Saya ada jualan kacau dan sangat berkata. Ini terakhir, mungkin 1-2 sekelah. Jadi, ia masih di dalam jualan kacau dan masa. Dan kerana ia masih, kita tidak akan menggunakan jualan kacau. in both space and time. And because it's thin, we tend not to notice them. So the practice is simply to notice that they exist. That is all. And once you do that, after a while you notice that it's everywhere, that thin slice of joy, moments of joy, permeates life all the time.

You actually do a great job of listing little thin slices of joy that we miss most of the time, that minute that the hot water in the shower hits you, eating that first bite of food, all these little things that are happening to us all the time that we overlook, because we're in such a rush or whatever, that if you were just attuned into them, yes, here you go. Yes, the thing about tuning in is this is something even more important and even more effective, which is familiarization. By tuning in often, the mind familiarizes with joy and the word familiar is related to the word family. It's basically the same word. I mean, it's the same root. And so,

after a while, the mind treats joy like a member of family or like a best friend. It's always reliable, it's always there. And that's how the mind becomes inclined to enjoy with very simple practices, like simply noticing. I don't know if the following is a disagreement between me and you or if it's a misunderstanding, probably the latter. But one of the things that I've always been taught about meditation that I find heartening in some ways is that the goal is not to feel a certain way. It is to feel whatever you feel clearly. So people feel like they've failed meditators because they don't feel calm or they don't feel whatever you feel clearly. So people feel like they've failed meditators because they

don't feel calm or they don't feel whatever. But I'm always reassuring people by saying, no, it's not a big deal. The whole point of mindfulness is just to be with whatever's there. So that off the cushion when you're attacked by anger or patients, you're not yanked around by it. But here you are saying we can get joy on demand. So to my ears, there are parts of that that seem problematic. Correct me where I am wrong. You're not wrong. It's actually both. They're both true at once. So first thing is the context. It turns out at least in early Buddhism, the version that was in the Dikayas, taught by the Buddha. Joy is dominant in the practice. For example, the way the Buddha described the path, he calls it, the good and safe path to be taken joyfully.

Then in the description of the path, for another example, the seven factors of enlightenment, pity, the energetic joy is one of the factors. Then when he talked about the path from suffering, from duka to enlightenment, I can't remember the name of the sutra, but he went to a whole chain. And in this chain, three other factors have to do with joy, like parmoja, pti and sutra. And they eventually lead to samadhi and leading to equanim kelihatan kepada sehingga mereka, dan soal.

Semadi menjadi kata-kata. Kau datang ke dalam hidup. Jadi, kemudian, dan kata-kata, apa yang dia berlaku, itu tentang jual. Mereka juga berlaku tentang kata-kata. Kenapa kata-kata? Karena jual. Jadi jual adalah kata-kata, atau kata-kata,

kebukaan Buddha. Kata-kata, kata-kata, kata-kata. Ini adalah satu yang terbaik yang terbaik di meditasi. to good peace of the Buddha's teaching. Even somebody itself, collectiveness of mind. It is one of the most important aspects in meditative practice. Even for that, the Buddha says, the proximate cause of samadhi is joy. Sukha, specifically. Sukha leads directly to samadhi.

The Buddha was incredibly technical and I think people can hear this and some of the things you've, some of the foregoing here. And you know, he was almost like OCD and how technical he was and these these one mind state leads to the next, what emotion kind of leads to the next, the proximate cause of X is Y. To you as an engineer, is that very appealing? Oh, I love it. Every time I read it, I feel I'm home. Yes. So, so in the in a sense, what I'm doing, saya berjaya di mana saya lihat, saya berjaya di tradisional.

Di situ, di langkah, dan sesuatu yang lain. Jadi, ini adalah penyakitkanan yang saya hanya berjaya. Awak sehingga Buddha juga, saya rasa, dilabarannya sekolah. Jadi, kata-kata itu, kata-kata itu adalah satu hari Buddha dan Buddha, dan dia akan berikan kelihatan dengan kata-kata, dan dia berikan kemungkinan, kemudian lebih, kata-kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata, kata dalam kata-kata, ini yang saya menghantar. Jadi, Buddha ini adalah kata-kata yang terbuka tentang dia. Dan itu untuk saya, saya menghantar sangat banyak question, yang kalau kita lihat keadaan buddhasian, mereka menjadi Mahayana dan Rajrana, mereka adalah banyak sangat kata-kata dan sangat banyak mereka

yang berguna di Nikaiya, di dalam buddhasian. Jadi, kata-kata saya, kenapa di Buddha yang membunuhi orang yang berhati-hati? Kenapa dia membunuhi tantapa dia membuat kerajaan, kenapa dia membuat kerajaan, apa yang saya kena. Oleh, apa yang saya kena? Ini semua berguna, tapi saya tidak mengenai kenapa. Saya fikir, itu adalah generasi, generasi generasi.

Apa yang Buddha membuat adalah generapa yang Buddha berkata, adalah most generalisah. Saya rasa most generalisah, most teachable to everybody. Sebab dia tak berjalan di magi, tak berjalan di bahagian, tak berjalan di dati ini. Dan ini sangat kuat untuk hari ini. Saya boleh menggunakan kata-kata di kata-kata... ...kata-kata di kata-kata di kata-kata di kata-kata di kata-kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kata di kataata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya berkata, saya ber me that was to me, I'm still myself as a trying to continue that tradition. Yeah, the position and the subset that is most applicable to everybody and not losing the power of the Dharma. But I was the one who sent you down this tributary, but I was trying to get you to explain to me why my understanding that one does not need to feel a certain way.

Oh, okay. So the way I see it is, as you talked about earlier, as your practice improves, right? A few things become problems, problems become solvable, and non-solvable problems become managed. So even going down the path of joy, those things are still true. We still have problems and we still have problems that are unsolvable. And so therefore, they're both both aspects of practice are true at once. One aspect is increasing the joy, relying on the joy, creating the joy and dealing with everything else with equanimity. And at the end of it, I think it converges. It converges into Nevada, where it is perfectly economist and perfectly joyful. So let me just see if I can restate that. So on the one hand, it is completely kosher and healthy

to try to cultivate and notice, to cultivate joy that's not there and notice the joy that is there that you may not be noticing. On the other hand, it's also an important part of the practice to just be able to sit with whatever comes up in an impermanent and tropic universe where terrible things happen and we feel a crap, an important part of the practice is just to be able to sit with it in a way that is open and that doesn't allow it to yank you around. Correct.

So I can't write. He's going right. And very important, always need to mention love and compassion. Well, let's talk about love and compassion because you say this is a, this is like the almost the most surefire way to generate joy. Yes. And again, here we are in an area where love and compassion, these, you know, the temptation of a dyed and the wool skeptic like me, it's say, okay, this is, this is just

again, more empty platitudes. So tell me why I'm wrong. So it turns out that it's actually very easy to practice kindness, loving kindness. So the word is, is the technical instance meta. M-E-T-T-A. Correct. Yes, yes. And the way to practice is this. So it's the first definition. The definition and meta is the wish for others to be happy. It's a simple set. And the way to practice is simply, like, just imagine,

either imagine or just see a human being, let's say I'm looking at you right now, my brother. And let's just think to myself, I wish for this guy to be happy. Let's say that's the entire practice,, jadi, pertama, ia sangat mudah. Dan ia sangat mudah, kerana semua itu berhati-hati... ...seperti yang terbaik. Dan, terima kasih dari satu-satunya...

...saya berhati-hati. Semuanya, saya pernah melihat... ...menguahkan berapa yang membuatkan terbaik. Jadi, dan... ...seperti yang membuatkan terbaik, mungkin... ...saya akan mencari ini sekarang. Itu membuatkan satu persen dan... ...saya berhati-hati untuk berhati-hati. And when it brings up a thought, maybe the audience tried this now. As imagines one person and as wish for that person to be happy.

And when you do that, you may notice joy. To be on the giving end of a kind thought is intrinsically rewarding. The immediate first time you do it immediately, you sense a reward. And it's so powerful that so one time I signed this at homework, I mean, I always signed this at homework when I give a speech. dan itu sangat kuat. Jadi, kali ini saya mempunyai rumah. Saya selalu mempunyai rumah, jika saya mempunyai rumah. Satu kali ini saya mempunyai jatuh hari nama dan saya mempunyai rumah. Saya beritahu, apabila kamu pergi ke rumah,

untuk peringkatan peringkatan peringkatan, hanya berikan untuk orang yang terlalu gembira di dalam kembali. Jadi jangan sayangkan saya, saya mencari untuk menghantar. Dan itu itu, saya pergi ke rumah, tidak berikan. Jadi, sejak hari ini saya mencari, saya rasa terbaik. Dan itu, saya akan pergi kembali untuk kerja, tiada tinggal. Jadi, pada jalan hari ini, saya akan menghentikan email dari kata-kata. Dan orang ini beritahu saya menghentikan kerja saya. Saya menghentikan kerja di masa-mana. Tapi saya buat kemas kemas kemas kemas dan kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas kemas.

Dan apa yang saya nakkan untuk mencari? 80 sekitar per sehingga. Itu seperti sehinggalaku di investi. Dan seorang yang boleh menghantar itu, semua yang mereka menghantar adalah perasaan untuk beberapa sekitar. Jadi, itu untuk kainan, itu bukan sesuatu yang seperti. Like, wow. Itu hanya sesuatu yang mereka boleh berlaku dalam beberapa sekitar. Dan sudah kamu dapat, dapatkan semasa.

Jadi, apa yang mereka hanya menghantar adalah, lebih berlaku dan lebih terlalu kemudian. a few seconds and already you get the effect. So the only thing is the more you practice the easier and the more powerful it becomes. And as you describe in the book, we are we're wired for this. We're social animals. We evolved to have interactions with other humans. And so it's not just good about it. Not just feels good about it. Yes, not just with social, with outro social. Outro social. Yes. As far as I know, we are the only members that are outro social outside of naked mole rats. But they are kind of exception because they are outside of the world.

Naked mole rats. Naked mole rats. So they are a species of moles. Naked mole rats? Yeah, you're okay. But they live like hands. They live in colonies of very closely related relatives. And so therefore, they are outro social. mereka berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berkoneksinya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berjaya, saya berj Right. Right. So the difference between social and auto social animals is that we work with other human beings who are not closely related to us, but not even remotely related, not even cousins or

second cousins, which is we work and live together. And so there has to be mechanism for auto sociality to work the neuro mechanism. And my suspicion and I could be wrong is that the mechanism is precisely what I just said, which is wishing for others to be happy is itself rewarding. And that's how we create our social species. I personally think that makes a lot of sense. You talk about thinking about your own death as something that will bring up

joy. For me, it doesn't directly. I know there are people who say who say, I know that the research I suggested. So the research suggests that if untuk saya, itu takkan di mana. Saya tahu orang yang beri saya mencari. Jadi, sebabkan saya mencari, kalau anda fikirkan kembali, lebih baik untuk membuat keadaan. Terima kasih, saya fikirkan keadaan. Mereka lebih baik untuk membuat keadaan. Mereka membuat keadaan untuk membuat keadaan. Dan, untuk example, kalau anda berkata,

kalau anda berkata, lebih baik untuk keadaan. Terima kasih, anda ber got old. The older you are, the more you close up to death, then the happier you are in the more you appreciate life. Yeah, I've seen graphs that show that people are happy when they're kids, then they go to a huge trough all the way until when they get old. Yes. Oh, yeah, it's called parenthood. And marriage, but And marriage, but your mouth is very. But so how should I put it? The thing about about death, actually I do more than that. I do something we call the five, the five contemplations. And so every day I remember five things.

I am subject to aging. I am subject to illness. I am subject to death. Everything that whole deal will eventually be separated from me. Saya berguna dengan penyakit. Saya berguna dengan penyakit. Saya berguna dengan penyakit. Semua yang berguna akan terbuka dari saya. Saya adalah kata-kata kata-kata kata-kata kata-kata. Ini terbaik. Dan pada keseluruhan ini sangat berguna. Dan untuk saya, saya berguna di situ.

Ini sangat mencari, dan ada keadaan yang berlaku di pali. Dan keadaan yang berlaku adalah some vega. And some vega adalah keadaan yang berlaku di perjalanan. Selepas ini, ada keadaan yang berlaku dari 5 refleksi, ada di dalam hidup yang tidak berlaku, seperti perjalanan yang terlalu berlaku.

Jadi, ada keadaan yang berlaku sebagai penyelunan-punyelunan dalam hidupnya. Jadi, ada kecemasan dan juga ada diperlukan. Dan kali ini kecemasan boleh mempunyai kecemasan. Jadi, untuk mencari kecemasan, ada sesuatu yang berlaku diperlukan. Sekarang, kecemasan yang berlaku, yang berlaku diperlukan. Pertama kecemasan, kecemasan, kecemasan, kecemasan, of kindness and compassion, and the balance each other out. So without some vigor, without the urgency, you can't get stuck in the spiritual sense. But if you only have pasta, you don't have some vigor, there's no urgency to move forward.

You can't get stuck again in a different way. I think there is a... I'm sorry, you had more to say. Sorry. So for me, that is a very nice combination. And for me, therefore, the contemplation on death, it brings about the urgency and the clarity to live my life in a way that is meaningful to me. And so, by that sense, in in a sense it helps me become happier. What I was going to say when I rudely interrupt you was that and just to amplify your point, was that there is a kind of pleasure if that's the right word,

with aligning yourself with what is undeniably true. And so while it is unpleasant on some levels to think about the fact that you and everybody you know are going to die and we're going to get sick and all these other hard truths, There actually is this if you're there's a subtle pleasure to aligning with what is true. Now I'm just kind of just saying this, but what's your view of that? I think you may be right. Be blunt about I experience it slightly differently. I experience it as an urgency. An urgency, right? So it may be just different for all sorts of people. We talked about this a little bit before. But here you are, the guy who wrote a book called Joy on the Man. Do you get into bad moods? Still, this life, right?

Right. And should we feel badly as people who are going to follow your little tips and tricks, um, if we get into bad moods? Uh, no, don't feel bad because if you feel bad about feeling bad, it's, then it's, it's called meta-suffering, it's suffering about suffering. Or the Buddha, there's this term from Buddhism, but the second arrow, you get hit by an arrow, you feel like crap, because you get hit by an arrow. But then you feel, you know, the add-on on this whole story, why am I always the dude who's getting hit by an arrow? That's a second arrow that you were applying voluntarily.

That's right. So I agree with that. All right, here's my other question I want. I want to just get your advice in public. You talk a lot in the book in a very, I think insightful data-driven way. Some of the data you're just kind of making up but it's clear that you, you're built upon some actual data.

About how to build, how to start and sustain a meditation practice. So I'd be curious just to your advice to my listeners about how to do that, and also your advice to me about somebody who's got a meditation app now where we're trying to get people to start meditating and stay meditating. So just free associate if you will about what about any of that. The first problem is how to how to get people to start or how you start. The second problem is once you start how you sustain. And I think they are like this.

They are not the same. Because if you solve one, it doesn't necessarily solve the other. So getting people to start. sebab kalau kita berkata, itu takkan berkata-kata. Jadi, menjaga orang untuk mulakan. Saya rasa... Kami ada keadaan yang terbaik, satu keadaan yang terbaik adalah ini idei minuman efektif itu. Itu sebab itu yang terbaik. Itu sebab itu, itu sebab itu.

Jadi, keadaan yang terbaik dan itu takkan berkata. Kemudian, itu takkan berkata. Tapi kita berkata, itu lebih banyak. Kemudian itu berkata. Itu berkata, itu the person says, eh, it doesn't work. But if we give too much beyond that, then it's over those. Then it's like, well, I can do this. So there's an understanding of where the minimum effective dose is and applying the register right amount. So that is, I think, the key concept

in getting people to start. So what is the minimum effective dose? So in the old days, I'll say two minutes. I get people to do meditation of two minutes Jadi apa yang berlaku? Jadi pada hari ini saya akan beritahu 2 minit, saya akan membuat meditasi 2 minit dan mendengar. Dan sekarang saya rasa satu perjalanan cukup. Dan mana saya buat ini? Saya akan membuat orang membuat satu perjalanan, di mana yang berlaku, berikan perjalanan, perjalanan,

untuk membuat perjalanan, apa yang perjalanan, berikan untuk kamu. Jadi orang membuat itu, mungkin ada satu perjalanan sekarang. Foo attention, Foo attention Do one in breath and one out breath Whatever Foo attention means to you So people do that, maybe there is one breath right now You might notice your karma already in one breath And why? That's how there are two reasons There's a psychological reason and a physiological reason Physiologically,

when you bring attention, full attention to a breath, you, for some reason, your breath slows down and it comes deeper. And then you stimulate your vagus nerve. You stimulate your vagus nerve, you activate something called a relaxation response. And that's the VAG, you ask. So the vagus nerve, when you activate, it activates the relaxation ...relexation response, via G-US. Jadi, kebaikanan kebaikanan kebaikanan... ...kita dipercaya di percayaan... ...dia kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan, kebukaan,, kebukaan. Mereka perlu menjadi di masa depan. Jadi, jika kamu membuat keput boleh buat lebih, kita boleh menghentikan ini kemungkinan dari wudah dan kita boleh menghentikan ke dalam keadaan yang sangat berkata,

keadaan yang sangat berkata, itu adalah percaya, tapi ini begini dengan satu bref, dan di satu bref, kamu sudah faham. Saya ada sesuatu yang paling penting tentang ini, itu itu bukan hanya untuk meditators. Ini sangat berbual untuk menjaga orang yang mencari. Ini adalah untuk performa. Jadi bukan hanya berbual.

Dan yang terbaik yang saya tahu adalah tanis pelayar. Yang tanis pelayar, tanis pelayar yang terbaik di dunia. Yang yang mencari, mereka mencari masalah. Yang yang kita berjaya berjaya berjaya berjaya. Yang terbuka, 10-15 sekitar, mereka berj skill, which is what we just talked about, which is between points, 10, 15 seconds between points, they're able to rest their minds and bodies so effectively, they're the more rested before the next point begins, and therefore they can sustain high performance

through the whole game, and therefore they do win-win-buttons. And so I asked that to Novak when I finally met him. Novak, Joe Gavitch. Yes, best terbaik adalah pencari di luar kembali. Ya, juga, dan beri meditator. Ya, dan saya tak tahu di masa itu. Tapi saya mencari dia, dia beri dia. Dia beri dia, ada masalah. Dia beri dia. Dia beri dia.

Dia beri dia. Dia beri dia. Dia beri dia. Dia tak tahu, saya mencari dia. Jadi, ini adalah dia untuk dia. Dia beri dia, ini adalah yang paling penting. He didn't say those words. Let me see what the... So this is the key for him. He confirmed that this is the most important part. And so the exact words are this. The exact words are, he said, I'm my lover.

Tennis is no longer a physical game. It's a mental game. And the way to win it is to be able to calm your mind and always think clearly. And so I think that's why he's the best tennis player in the world because he's a meditator. In addition to his training as tennis player. So that's how you start is to figure out the minimum effective dosage.

But how do you keep people meditating? Yes. That in but in an office is turns out to be a very tough problem. So even for people in my class, right, they come to my class for eight weeks or whatever number of weeks it was. And then because some some of the versions is a two day class. mereka berkata ke dalam kata-kataan terbaik atau apa-apa, mereka berkata ke dalam kataan terbaik dan mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata,

mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, mereka berkata, Jadi, macam mana? Itu sangat berbual. Saya tahu, jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika jika The reason is because it's kind of boring in a sense. The gym and meditation, they're both kind of boring and they take time. And it's like, there's always something else to do. There's more important, like doing a next report or, I don't know, watching cats on YouTube.

Something. So, how do you solve this problem? And again, I look at spots for inspiration. Jadi, macam mana awak tahu ini? Dan lagi saya lihat untuk keadaan untuk inspirasi. Dan lebih baik sebagai inspirasi dan asa dan analogy. Dan ada beberapa perkara. One perkara adalah informasi. Jadi, untuk keadaan untuk inspirasi, sayacapkan ke dalam kecil untuk beri kecil. Jadi, untuk beri meditasi, ia berpindahkan ke moment- moment

di dalam kecil. Itu membantu, tapi ia tak beri kecil ke dalam kecil. ia tak beri kecil untuk beri meditasi. Pada masa lain, kecil beri kecil. Jadi, kecil, jika kecil, ia lebih banyak lagi di dalam kecil.

Sampai kecil, kecil, atau kecil, lebih banyak lagi di dalam kecil. gym buddies. If you have a gym buddy, you're much more like to go to the gym. Same thing with meditation, a buddy or a group, much, much more like a practice. But again, it's very hard in America today to gather your friends for 20 minutes every day. But this is where an app can come in. You can create a little community. Yeah. So, so maybe in order for community to work, the key word, I think is accountability, yeah, accountable to your friends. And therefore, maybe that could be

the weakness of the app. If there's no accountability. Except for you can, for what you could build it into the app that you could see who's meditating, who isn't, you can give him crap if they haven't, and that kind of thing. That will work well. Yes. Yeah. So that's a possible solution. There's a third solution, which I think works really well in sports and I think works really well here, which is joy, which is why I wrote a book by the way. It was an original intention. I wrote a book.

So in sports, in exercise, what they did is they, they, they gamify sports, I mean, they gamify exercise and the call sports. And because it's gamified, people do it for fun. Game of fire. Yeah. They do it for fun and therefore they exercise. And so the trick for me is therefore let's gamify meditation. But then I can't do that because sports is stimulus-driven and anything that's stimulus-driven can be gamified. Meditation is stimulus-free, anything that's stimulus-free is not easy to gamify. And so I realized something, I realized that dan kemudian dia kembali, ia tidak terlalu muda untuk membuat saya. Jadi, saya rasa sesuatu.

Saya rasa itu ada yang berlaku untuk membuat itu, yang adalah jual. Di perjalanan yang berlaku, ada kata-kata yang berlaku di mana-mana yang berlaku dan itu adalah jual. Jadi, untuk perjalanan, saya rasa terakhir, bagaimana mempercayakan kemudian di mana-mana yang saya mempercayakan

dan saya mencari beberapa bulan, dan saya rasaada di dalam perjalanan, dan saya berada di dalam perjalanan, dan saya berada di dalam perjalanan, dan saya berada di dalam perjalanan, dan saya berada di dalam perjalanan, dan saya berada di dalam perjalanan, dan saya berada di dalam perjalanan, dan saya berada di dalam perjalanan, dan saya berada di dalam perjalanan,

dan saya berada di dalam perjalanan, dan saya berada di dalam perjalanan, dan saya berada di dalam perjalanan, dan saya berada di dalam perjalanan, So starting on a first press already we emphasize the joy in the practice. And again, I feel I'm not doing anything. Anato, because that was how the Buddha taught it. The Buddha taught it as a path of joy. So fun, joy, all the way the beginning. Therefore, they are much more likely to reach a joy point much earlier and then sustain their practice. Well, that's this idea is what makes the book, I I think so fascinating and I think practical and useful

And I'm glad I read it and I'm glad you came on the podcast man. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for having me my friend Again, my thanks to man. I also want to thank my producers who are amazing Lord Efron Josh. Oh, hand. They're Amos dance silver Steve Andrew Cald, and also to the listeners of this podcast. If you're into it, please rate us, review us, recommend us to people, and if you have any suggestions about people you want me to have on or questions you want me to ask or topics you want to explore, just hit me on Twitter. I actually read it at Dan P. Harris. Thank you. See you next time. Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery

Plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.