Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 27: Mingyur Rinpoche

Episode Date: July 27, 2016

Mingyur Rinpoche, the author of "The Joy of Living: Unlocking the Secret and Science of Happiness," is a study of contradictions. On one hand, he's been formally recognized as the reincarnation of two Tibetan meditation masters. On the other hand, he has been working with scientists to design research around the impact meditation can have on the brain. In fact, he and other practitioners had their brain activity measured while meditating on compassion and the researchers were stunned by the results. Mingyur also freely admits that he suffered from anxiety and panic attacks as a child, and talks about how he turned to meditation for help. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

Back in the day, we used to call those mix tapes. Just like you do that with music, you can do it with podcasts. So if you're looking for episodes about anxiety, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes. Or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes, or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist for that. We've even put together a playlist of some of my personal favorite episodes. That was a hard list to make. Check out our playlists at 10%.com slash playlist. That's 10% all one word spelled out..com slash playlist singular.

Let us know what you think. We're always open to tweaking how we do things and maybe there's a playlist we haven't thought of. Hit me up on Twitter or submit a comment through the website. From ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. My guest on this episode presents an intriguing mix. Some might say, and we'll hear what he has to say about this, he may disagree with this,

but some might say he's a study in contradictions. On the one hand, he's been formally recognized as the reincarnation of not one but two Tibetan masters. On the other hand, he's thoroughly steeped in science. In fact, he's worked with scientists to design research to see what kind of impact meditation has on the brain. In one study, he and other experienced practitioners had their brain activity measured while meditating

on compassion and the neural activity in a key center of the brain associated with happiness increased by 7 to 800%. Researchers said they'd never seen anything like this before. Interestingly, notwithstanding his apparent mental fitness right now, my guest freely admits that as a kid, he suffered from anxiety and panic attacks, something I can relate to. His full name, he tells me we don't have to use the full name, but his full name is Younge Mingyue Rinpoche. That last word, Rinpoche is a Tibetan title conferred upon people viewed as meditation

masters. It's sometimes described as being roughly akin to a PhD. He's the author of the joy of living, unlocking the secret and science of happiness, Rinpoche. Thank you for coming in. Thank you. Thank you very much. Did everything, was everything I just said reasonably accurate? Perfect. Perfect. My name, you, thank you very much. Did everything, was everything I just said, reasonably accurate? Perfect.

Perfect. My name, you pronounce my name very well. Did I, I've been practicing all morning. It's such a pleasure to meet you. We have, as we were discussing before, we started recording, we have mutual friends. Yes. People who I really, really respect, including the really eminent scientists, Richie Davidson,

who was a student of yours and really encouraged me to look into your work and to meet you. So it's pleasure to meet you in person. Thank you. Pleasure meet you too. There's so many things I want to ask you, but in your book, you say as a child, quote, anxiety, and company me like a shadow. Yeah. So what was going on for you? There's only things I want to ask you, but in your book, you say as a child, quote, anxiety accompanied me like a shadow. Yeah.

So what was going on for you? Yeah. I was born in the northern part of Nepal, right? Middle of Himalaya. Mountain. So I have a nice environment, mountain, and my family is very, very loving and kind. But I don't know why I have this panic attack. So it's far more like shadow. So I was looking for a lot of solution

and I play with my friend, childrens. Try to, you know, when you were a child, we make cusses and cussles, some kind of simoleum. Hows, I know how to make boar and arrow, you know. And basically fear about the snowsdome. That was your fear, snowsdome. Yeah, snowsdome. And firework.

And I cannot go into the car. As soon as I'm getting near the car, I feel nervous, you know. And sometimes when I wake up my heart is jumping and sweating. I don't know why I have this panic. First thing in the morning. First thing in the morning. Just wake up and feel like my heart is boiling, boiling, you know. How little were you when this was happening? Around eight to nine, How little were you when this was happening? Around eight, nine, somewhere in nine years old. So then my father was great meditator and my grandma, grandpa. They all meditate.

So when I look at them, they feel so calm, peaceful, just like mountain. So I thought I want to learn meditation from my father when I was 9 years old. But then I thought I'm too young, maybe I'm too old to be my father, don't want to teach me. And I asked my mom, you know, what do you think? Should I ask my father to teach me meditation or not? And my mom said, very happy, yes, great. or not, and my mom say very happy.» Yes, great! But then I told my mom, «Please wait. Until my last decision, last minute is, I mean the final decision, don't ask my father, but she already asked my father.

And my father asked me, «Do you want to learn meditation?» I said, «Yes, of course, but who told you er med at tage, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager, hvad jeg tager don't look for peace and external reality. Yeah, don't look for peace in the external reality. The lasting happiness is within us. So that was a really, really benefit. And from there, I tried to learn meditation, but I like the idea of meditation, but I don't like the practice of meditation. There were a lot of people feel that way.

I feel I'm very lazy, and when I meditate, it's okay for a few seconds, for a minute, but then my panic comes back again, then I give up. So I was struggling for five years. Then when I was 13 I was in Northern India, a place called Shirablinga Monastery, a very big monastery. And there's one of my important gurus, Disidhrumbhichir, my teacher. Dhaisidhrumbhichir. Can I just interrupt you for one second because I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit here because as I understand it at the age of 13, you went on a three-year

meditation retreat. Yeah, that was the tradition until you're going to start there in Shira Bling monastery. Shira Bling. Shira Bling monastery. Yes. Near Daramsala, you know? Oh, that's where the Dalai Lama is. The Lama is a residential from there two hours by car. It's just near. And then I thought maybe I should join the traditional tree retreat, solid to retreat.

At this point, you're still having panic attacks. Still I have panic attacks. Since I've been meditating nine years old, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 4, 5 years. So it wasn't a quick fix. It wasn't like you started meditating and everything was fixed. No, no, no. Why would your parents... I know that your father was a great meditation master.

Yes. I've heard his name many times. Remind you of Tukou, Tukou, Bergen, Jim Bishet. Yes, I was reluctant to say it because I thought I would screw it up and I did. But why would they say, okay, yes son, you can go on a three-year meditation retreat? I asked. I mean, I thought maybe it's good for me because I'm lazy, you know. I thought if I got to that 3 year retreat, then my lazy will not be there. So then I really want to go first, I asked my father to ask Thaisidurmatsu to give permission to go to 3 year retreat and he did. Then I went to Ritut.

Was it unusual for a 13 year old boy to be on a retreat? Yeah, normally it's quite young. I mean, this way I'm a little bit hesitant. I cannot ask to Thaisytum Tria Ritut because I'm again too young. So I approached my father to ask Thaisytum Tria. To ask Thaisytum Tria Ritut, Rinpoche, the guy who runs Share Bling with the monastery, but were you, I fear that this is a very Tibetan thing. You're being modest here. You must have shown

some proficiency as a meditator in order for your father to recommend you to this eminent. They all say I'm meditating good or since your child you've been meditating is so nice, you understand very well, but I thought, hmm, they are maybe, you know, pleasing me, maybe, I'm not so perfect and still I am panicked, you know. Were they concerned about your panic attacks or did they think that was normal? Now my father said, it's okay, you can go to retreat. And they're worried about my panic, of course. They're my, my, both my father and mother.

They all concerned about my panic. But they didn't think that you having panic attacks was a sign that you weren't a good meditator. No. I mean, I'm practicing meditation. And you know, when we learn meditation, what we call is experiential lineage. So we have to report every time and then once you get experience, then I get next teaching. So therefore my father said, I'm doing very well. So I'm just going to elaborate on that because some of our listeners don't know much about

meditation reports. So when you say it's an experiential lineage, meaning that in the lineage in which you were learning how to meditate, the tradition is to give a report of your experience to your teacher on a regular basis. So you would tell your teacher, in this case your father, about how your meditation was going and it sounded like you were doing really well, even though you were having panic attacks. So he said, okay, go on the three-year meditation retreat. And when you went off in this retreat,

could you see your family during this time or were you off? Can I see? My brother, my brother, sometimes come to meet me once in a while. Otherwise, is it kind of like a compound, where there's two door, one is front, one is side, and we cannot go out of that drawer. But we have some old garden in front here,

and each one individual room, we have group prayer hall. So sometimes we pray together, they are of 18 of us. So. Wow, 18 people, three years, and you're in this compound. Yeah, that's intense.

Very intense. Very intense. I mean, in a very early morning. You wake up early in the morning? Yes. So how did it go for you? You're 13, you're still having panic attacks, you're... Yeah, I mean, I don't mind to wake up early morning.

I don't mind to do all these things, but my panic is sometimes comes. Sometimes we have group play, we play together in the hall, and sometimes we use music instrument. Sometimes we interpret and play, it could be very loud. We have the symbols and drum, and so many. Sometimes I cannot continue. So when I have panning, I have to leave the play. So it's very serious. So the main thing is that my lazy still follow me,

even in the retreat. I thought, you know, I can escape from the lazy. And the worse, my lazy and my panicked, they too become friends. No, really, they became friends. No, they become friends. So then what happens is I thought, okay, now I really going to accept my panic because until then what I thought is I'm going to garride on my panic. So there's two things, resist, which is fear of panic, what I call panic or panic.

Sometimes, I have the belief in my panic. I listen to what I call yes sir and heck get out. So these two things, it's just like when you drive the car, you have gas and brake, right? So without gas and brake, you cannot drive car. So the main trigger or main cause for panic for me is try to get rid of panic or sometimes I listen to panic. So then what I did is, of course, I received a lot of teaching from my father

and other teachers, which is making friends with the panic. So first, I accept my panic, okay, I'm going to learn how to live with my panic. I'm going to face with my panic. So then I use my panic as support for my meditation. So normally the meditation is you might be aware of your breathing and then visual object, sound, smell, test sensation.

Then you can be aware of thought and emotion, but you need to practice step by step. At the beginning you cannot watch panic, so if you be aware of panic, become overwhelmed. But if you have some experience before, in the end, you can use panic as a platform meditation. Meditation. It's another thing to be aware of. Yeah, just like your breath. So then when you see the panic, what we call, if you see the river, that means you are out of river. If you fall into river, carried by river, you cannot see it.

If you see, that means there's space between you and panic you are free. So then I really apply that for intensively for three days stay in my room alone not join group prayer. Then after that I have breakthrough. My panic really become my friend, but when panic become my friend, panic is gone. Panic doesn't have good heart, so I just can't. Really. So you're making me realize how far I have to go, because I have panic disorder, and it's definitely not my friend. And I've been meditating, I don't know, seven years,

but I'm not, you know, we come from very different cultures, and I didn't start when I was nine. And I can be aware of my breath, I can be aware of sights and sounds, but panic is too much. And so normally what do you call this? First step with the panic. First, you watch, but sometimes cannot.

It's over one. So then you don't watch. So try something different, meaning don't watch. So try something different. Meaning, don't watch panic, but create another emotion. When I was young, I created anger. Anger is kind of different than panic. So I use anger as support for my meditation. Be aware of anger.

So then I, it's okay, then become successful, feel happy. So then it's a lollic successful, feel happy. Mm-hmm. So then it's a lollicula I can watch the panic. So, even that doesn't work sometimes. So let me interrupt you, sugar saying, so you would feel panic come on, and you would say, all right, I can't be with the panic, so I will bring up anger.

Yeah. So I can be with that. So if I, you're saying, so if I feel, if I'm, I have to go get an MRI, do you know what an MRI, yes, you do, because you've been in an MRI machine. So you, I have to go get an MRI. That creates a lot of panic for me. So you were saying, when I get an MRI machine

and I start to feel panic, bring up anger and pay attention to that instead. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Pay attention to that. So bring up anger and be aware of anger. So, once you do that, you build up some kind of habit of practice with the negative emotion, what we call strong emotion. So then slowly you can aware a pen of little bit.

Three seconds, okay. Boom, pen of combat, same as normal come back, sem as normal. Ok, le go. And another way is you change your focus, maybe when you panic, your mind focus on your breath. Your focus on anger or your focus on breath. Some run focus on sound, when you feel panic, focus on sound. Panic, sound, panic, sound. So these two things, what we call,

try something different. So by doing that, then you build up the, what we call, like, power of the awareness. The mind, the focus, the meditation become more, more clear for you. Then eventually you can aware. But sometimes even if you do that,

it doesn't work. Then what we call step back. Step back meaning, look at the behind the panic. So maybe panic or panic, resisting aversion. And don't lie to the panic. These things sometimes more stronger than panic. panic or panic, resisting, aversion and don't like the panic, these things sometimes more stronger than panic. So don't watch panic, watch the emotion behind the emotion, try to see, just what we're going to step back. And sometimes

that doesn't work. What do you do? Take a break. Maybe walk, treat a boarding boob or whatever boob. Do you have some physical exercise? And you come back in. Try a little meditation. After the break, did you have times when you didn't have any food or things? Of course, the first month I almost died. You almost died. After this.

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you kept doing more of these long retreats. Yeah, so I did finish the three-year and three months. What we call that finished complete finish. And after that, I wanted to do more retreat. And my father's maybe do some study. So I did tradition of Buddhist study for what we call philosophy study, yes. And at what point did you decide that you were going to become a teacher? Just finished my retreat, my retreat teacher.

Very important, he is 84 years old. He passed away. Salji Rinpoche, another, another, Tibetan name. What is his name again? Salji Rinpoche. Salji Rumbuchi, another Tibetan name. What is his name again? Salji Rumbuchi. Salji Rumbuchi. He's my Rute teacher. Very nice, he's a very great administrator. So he passed away.

So then head over to our monastery, daisid Rumbuchi. Recommend me to do next three-year Rute teacher. At age 16? At 17. 17. Yeah, and you ran the next retreat? Yeah, I did.

So you must have been viewed as a prodigy. I don't know. I told Thais about me, maybe I'm too young. I don't have good experience. What do you think? He said, I know. You can do it. So then I accept it. What, what do you think? He said, I know, you can do it. So then I accept it.

And what are the other monks think? Did they think who is this kid? They're happy, but in my retreat, all those, I think, 19 of them, and all of them from above 25 to 60 years old. So I'm like, you know, child and teaching to the parents. But they're all quite happy. But although that time I don't have much,

too much things to say, like just follow whatever in the text, whatever they have special instruction. I just follow that. That's quite okay for me. But then, end of that year, I'm joined, I'm already joined the philosophy school. So I'm learning so many new things. The second year, I'm become more confident and more experienced.

I can teach more. So they are all very happy and they all kind of respect for so no one complain. It's pretty amazing. It's really amazing. And I don't think I worry that our listeners won't really understand how amazing this is because you are, and I said this earlier,

this is a very Tibetan thing. Very modest. And if you talk to the Dalai Lama and say, hey, are you a good meditator? He'll say, no, I'm a terrible meditator. It's just the way in your culture. It's a modesty is a big deal. But so I will say it, so you don't have to.

But you really were viewed as a prodigy, and it is extremely rare for a 17-year-old kid to be running a retreat of this nature with these were advanced meditators in the retreat and you were their teacher. So and you went on to obviously you're sitting here you were how old are you now? 40. 40. Yeah. You look like you're 20. Oh thank you very much. You're doing it. You make me so happy. And you've been teaching for all of these years and also doing long retreats yours on your own.

And I know that you actually recently finished a long retreat which I want to talk to you about, but first, let me talk a little bit about science. Because in between doing long retreats and teaching long retreats, you got interested in science. How did that happen and where and when did it happen? So when I was young, around nine years old, there's some good scientists. One of my friends is called Francisco Varela.

He's an eminent neuroscientist. He came to Nepal to learn meditation from my father. So back then, I'm kind of naturally interested in science. And that time, I'm interested more about stars, galaxies, how far they are, how big they are. And there's a lot of new findings about the atom, sub-atomic particle, proton, all these things, you know. So I asked him about physics. And he told me something a little bit about this galaxies and also he told me a little bit about the brain. So one thing I remember, still remember, he told me,

the brain can sense and feel everything, but brain doesn't, brain itself doesn't have sensation. So if you want to do operation on your brain, no need anesthesia. So I was thinking, wow. So, and then I finished, I did the retreat, I told you. And after that, I am, I'm joined traditional college, Buddhist traditional Buddhist college. So which is, you have toя, визуя, визуя,

визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, виз, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, виз, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, визуя, в So this is very similar as modern science. In the debate, you can debate about everything, the real meaning about the debate is to see the nature of reality. And the modern science also see the nature of reality. What Buddha said, don't take my words just that I say so, you have to examine, contemplate and meditate. Then you can take it. That's why I like the Buddha because I'm not a big fan of being told to take things on faith. Yeah. So therefore, it's kind of like basic nature in Tibetan Buddhism. We are really

interested about explore and so then there's a lot of stuff in modern science. When I was, So there was a lot of steps in modern science. When I was in 1998, I first came to USA. I was teaching meditation at the same time. At the same time, I wanted to meet some scientists. If there are any scientists who came to my talk, I tried to make conversation with them and told them. And then they all gave me a lot of tapes. And that time there's a big, you know, not DVD, no, no VHS tapes.

Yeah, big one. Big books. And when I got back to India, I have one pile of those tapes. And I went to, I brought all this into my monastery and then I watched there also in the monastery, try to understand. So then, 2003, I came to, and we have mine and live meeting, you know. Mind and life institute, which is, let me just explain to people, mind and life institute was founded in part with the Dalai Lama. And the goal was to use modern scientific techniques to look at what contemplative practices, meditation, etc. does to the brain.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I joined time to time that meeting, and from that meeting, I came to, I wanted to decide to be guinea pig. A guinea pig. Yes. In 2003, I went to Wisconsin with Dr. Derryson. Dr. Richard Davinson, who is going to be on the podcast soon. He was actually on our first podcast. The first podcast we did was with his Holiness the Dalai Lama and Richie Davidson at the University of Wisconsin. Richie didn't get to talk much because I focused

most of my questions on the Dalai Lama, but Richie's a friend of mine, and Richie has really been the guy at the forefront of investigating what meditation does to the brain. And in one of his, I talked about it a little bit in the introduction, one of his seminal studies was taking a bunch of really experienced meditators, yourself included, and looking and putting electrodes on your head while you meditated and putting you inside of MRI tubes while you meditated, and the results were really, really interesting. Yes, yes. So, since 2003, I've been there and I became guinea pig. At the same time we did a lot of kind of like discussion and I asked

Richie about the brain, all this perception, all this stuff. So I learned a lot. So, therefore I'm really deeply interested in the science. And what do you think, what do you think, what is the importance to you of the mix of science and contemplative practice? Why is it so, what's the value in your view? Yeah, for me, there are many parallel between science and the view of Buddhist philosophy, for example about the Adam, about the perception, about how our mind works, like brain and all these things. But we are talking like using different language, different metaphor, different aspects. So in Buddhism we investigate, it's kind of like thought experiment. So we do debate, we contemplate, and then we meditate, then we can get some experience,

the experience kind of like resolve of the test, kind of laboratory, by doing all this contemplate, and receiving contemplate, debate and teaching, contemplate, debate, and meditation, then we got some experience. So then we go to the more further, deeper level. And modern science, you have many computers nowadays, right? So you can do things, a lot of things in the computer, and then a lot of finding,

it's very similar as we are talking about in Buddhism. So therefore, it's kind of fascinating, Binding is very similar as we are talking about in Buddhism. So therefore it's kind of fascinating and for me it's kind of like, so happy to see these things even though we are talking something, but no, we are talking something but different terms. And what Dalai Lama said, like modern science, like intelligent brain, and Buddhist meditation is kind of like more warm heart. So intelligent brain and warm heart together, then also we can maybe help for the society, for the bigger society and for the world.

for the bigger society and for the world. Because if you can prove the benefits of meditation to the brain, yes, and to other parts of the body, then maybe the rest of the world will adopt these practices. Yeah, in science, there's a lot of findings, but they may not have the method. For example, you can find about the mind, what do you call monkey mind, perception, the restless mind, what the emotion comes, but there's no, so much practice, how to deal with that. So in Buddhist meditation, we have a lot of things about that.

And therefore, now I'm making kind of like, special course in Buddhism, we have manyitational techniques, qui est univer於我們. Donc,我們不用被捕, et ces techniques, peuvent pratice. Everybody, and now need particular belief, and now need particular belief

in Buddha or in other religions. Therefore, now, I'm trying to focus on these this teaching what I call joy of living. So I wrote book, joy of living. Yes. And connected with that, there is joy of living workshops. So level one, level two, level three. All these three levels, all these are connected with the awareness, level one,

love and compassion, level two, the wisdom. Level three, yes. So, I'm interested, I said at the beginning that you are in some ways a study in contrast, because you are so deeply involved in science and yet, and maybe you don't see these things as a contrast, so I'd like to hear you out on this. And yet, you are part of a tradition where is a is a big part of the tradition and you are Have been officially identified as the reincarnation of two previous meditation masters So where is the evidence for that? How do you how does that align with your allegiance with?

With with science. Yeah, I have two brains actually. So some of them say, one is pizza and another is coffee and I am fighting in between. I am just kidding. So, I mean, reincarnation, what we believe like, we all have this enlightened nature. So, in Buddhism what we believe is basic init goodness. So, everybody has basic init goodness. And the nature of everybody is good.

And it's pure. And it is awesome. So, in another way, everybody is kind of like ranganated. Everybody is the precious person. But, yeah, me recognized as kind of ranganated. And I don't have so much kind of thinking about those things. And it's not so important that whether I recognize or not, but what I like is I like the practice,

Buddhism meditation, and this really helps me, for example, my panic has kind of changed my life, and also saved my life, my life. So therefore, all these things are very important. The Buddha said, don't worry too much about

past and future, past life, future life, whatever. So this life is very important, Не討論過太多話 about the past and future. Past life, future life, whatever. So this life is very important. The future, present life. So if you go into the forest and if you shot by poison arrow, first thing what you have to do is check out the poison arrow. Don't look for where this poison arrow comes from.

Who shot me? So if you look around, don't take care of poison arrow. Don't look for where this poison arrow come from, who shot me? So if you look around, don't take care of poison arrow now, you will die. So that's the one that I suggest, you know. Yes. So are you saying that you this is part of your culture? You don't know whether it's literally true but it's a nice tradition or… …it's a nice tradition, I mean it's not like I'm against of that, I mean I'm happy and… …and kind of like balance. What we call mind don't be too tight, you have to need a proof, a scientific proof. So we may not have that, scientific proof. But when we do meditation, of course there's a lot of good experience by doing meditation.

I have some kind of life, how to say. Practice which is related with my previous Minjurum, which is practice of whatever they do. If I do that, I have more beneficial. I feel like really helping me. All these connections there. And then, past that, normally we don't talk too much about like I know my past life, I know my future life or I have special quality, power, clairvoyance, these are not so important.

So we don't talk too much about those things. You said something there that could have slipped by so I just want to get into it just a second because you said that when you do practices associated with previous Mingyu rinpoche, that you feel more connection. You do feel a connection to these. And so you, I guess in some ways, you have this feeling that maybe this is true. Yeah, yeah, right? You're right. No proof, but a feeling.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yes. There's a, I sometimes argue with my meditation teacher. You may have met him as a guy named Joseph Goldstein. Yeah, yeah. OK, so Joseph is my meditation teacher. And from IMS. Yes, I am a many times.

Oh, yeah, you've been to the Insight Meditation Society up at, yeah, you've been to the Insight Meditation Society, but yes, so We sometimes have debates about metaphysical Issues and I make fun of him for believing in things that he can't prove and he Tells me that the right attitude is to have a mind of not knowing Just saying okay, so I don't know, but I'm not shutting it down and I'm not saying it's true It's a balance between the two. That's true. That's very important. So some people said we don't want to believe again

some say we have to be but the Buddha said ballots so whatever you say, yeah, that's important and another thing is as you said in Tibetan tradition even you ask Even they know they will never tell about whatever your experience past life even they have memory past life Normally, it's not allowed to tell you mean So if you had memories of your past lives, you wouldn't be even I have I will not tell you of course I don't have but even I have I will not tell you why not

I wouldn't be able to tell you. Of course, I don't have, but even I have, I will not tell you. Why not? This kind of like, kind of commitment, commitment. For example, when we meditate, they might have many different experience. Maybe you might have special experience, but if you tell to others, you become showing off, and may become a cause of ego, may become a cause of selfish, may become cost of service.

So it could be danger, danger for the ego. So therefore we have the model, model, model. Modify? Yeah, model it. Oh, moderate, yes. Have to be humble, it's very important. But do you discuss it with your fellow monks? Yes.

We can discuss with our teacher and with the fellow, what we call, spiritual brother and sister who receives same teaching, practice same thing we can share among us. Well, I'm glad you brought this up because one of, I will admit that I, and I've said this before, so I will admit I have a little bit of a bad attitude about what about many things, but in particular a little bit of awareness around Tibetan Buddhism, because it does involve a lot of metaphysical stuff that, you know, so does, I mean, I practice teravodin Buddhism, which is, there's plenty of metaphysical stuff in Teravodin Buddhism too. But generally speaking, it's easier to kind of strip away. There's no robes. There's at least in as it's practiced in the West. Joseph is just like a normal 70-year-old Jewish guy. But Richie Davidson, our friend, and other friends of mine have said that I'm missing out. That by my closed-minded attitude is blinding me

to things of real value, potentially, for me. But one of the issues I have is that there is, there's this whole tradition in Tibetan practice of tantra, these sort of secret rituals, that you don't discuss with civilians, like regular people like me. So that makes me a little suspicious. Is that all because of the ego concern you were raising before? In the past, when you meditate, sometimes there's something experience comes. You know people's mind, and you have some special capability.

So if you do that, then in the end, you become bad person. I mean, it's become like what we call a mara. Mara meaning evil. So evil might have those process, those things. So without having kind, compassion, humbleness, all this, then these things useless. So sometimes people think, oh, if you meditate, you can fly.

Fly is also important nowadays. Everybody can fly. I flew from India to here. With more than 300 people. What is the role of prayer? In the wise prayer, important, and who are you praying to? So the prayer, what we call the body, speech mind, the speech, the prayer. So the word has special power.

Once you put into the word, then many things come together and then, for example, if you write something, in order to write, you have to first think, and then you have to ask your body to come up with that. Whatever the word you are saying, and that's image, visualize imagination, there's motivation, there's body movement, and influence on your body. So it's kind of like that if you pray something and we believe that it has some kind of positive, if you pray good thing, then there's positive indedipenden connection. Just like maybe the butterfly in your SE costs a huge, what, or the good in Japan?

Yes, or a heart in the US, yeah. Independent. But so are you praying to a deity or are you praying to... I can pray to Buddha. You can pray for other sentient beings, two things. One, you need to pray like deity of Buddha, 1, no need to pray to the one, just pray for other sentient beings. And third aspect, which is you pray for, you pray with your true nature, your nature, with the nature. So you don't need particular deity, you don't need particular high supreme being, which is, which will feel your meaning or pray.

Just connect with your true nature. What is the role of women in Tibetan practice? The women in Tibetan, but this is what we call, there's a wisdom and method. là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, là, Bivashana is female aspect. I'm just to show them what that is. It's often translated as concentration meditation. Fipasana is inside or wisdom meditation. But does that mean because you don't see a lot of female teachers in the Tibetan tradition? Yeah, this is...

Intibet, we have triyana. Tivedentriyana. So hynnyana, ma'ayana, basayana. But Tivedentriyana, hynnyana, many people they say similar as teravada, but not similar. Same similar, same similar. But intbdn henniana, we have both but main focus for the male aspect. Maayana, both, equal. Bazaayana, female quality, more aspect. So therefore, there are some kind of general culture dominated by Henya.

So there is a lot of Vinaia and then ancient culture. Before the Dharma came to Tibet, it is the male dominant. So therefore, there is a lot of meld dominant. But now, and also, 800 years back, there's so many female teacher intipet also, a lot of nannari, being nannari, and then after some time, it's become quiet. So now we all try to re-bill. So there's a focus on rebuilding the role of women in the teaching infrastructure.

Yes. Tell me a little bit about the joy of living, is it an institute or what's the name? You teaching the West? Yeah. Terregar. Terregar. And T-E-R-G-A-R. And so if people want to learn from you, they can look up.

Terrar.walk. Terrar.org. Yes. And these, can you give me a sense of what the practices are? So. Because we've been talking about sort of what I would call deep end of the pool, prayer, and reincarnation. But a lot of what you teach is actually quite down to earth.

Yeah. So what I teach there in Dergar, we have two main programs. One is Joy of Living workshops. Second is Part of Liberation workshops. Path of Liberation. Path of Liberation is more connected with Buddhists. And Joy of Living is for secular basis. So the first one is calming the mind.

So bringing your mind, or recognizing your mind, your own awareness. So what we believe is everybody has basic innate goodness. So all these qualities are within us all the time. So normally, sometimes when I give teaching, I ask to the audience, how many of you think that you have awareness? So how about audience, raise hand? And the other half say, I don't have awareness, then I'm telling that that is the sign of awareness.

Because if you raise your hand, of course, you are aware that you have awareness. And those who said, I don't have awareness, you are aware that you don't have awareness, right? So awareness with us all the time. But the problem is we do not recognize normally. We do not recognize our own awareness. So the joy will be level one is, introduce awareness and then practice. Neutral your own awareness, connect it with your awareness. Then eventually,

like you can be aware of form, sound, smell, test, sensation, five sensory objects. So everything becomes support for awareness. And slowly, thought and emotion. So many joy of living is kind of like, you live your life joyful with under any circumstances, under any situation, so you can meditate everywhere anytime, even through three seconds, while you're talking,

while you're walking at your office, doing exercise. So there's the main thing about the joy of living. So what do we call finding happiness, finding joy everywhere in any time. And level 2 is opening heart. So it's about love and compassion. Again, we all have love and compassion. So we want to be happy, don't want to suffer, right? All of us, all of us, every minute, every breath, every movement, every eyes blink, so looking for happiness. And that is actually love. As in our love is, want to be happy, want to be good, want to see good,

but maybe you might not know the real causes of the happiness. But actually, the love is there and want to free from sufferings, compassion. So I tried to introduce again, which is your already process and from there, practice, nurture your own love and compassion and expand to all living beings. So that's the level 2. Level 3 is the wisdom. So we all have innate wisdom. So deep of our heart, we know impermanent.

We know independent, all these things, right? And even we know that our true nature is good, somehow, deep up heart. And we know that so many things about

our life. So in the end, the real meaning of wisdom is called beyond of concept. So that's the level 3. So it doesn't mean beyond concept means you cannot feel things, you cannot, you know, you cannot see what is good, what is bad and you become completely like zombies, not like that. So you have to say, the unhealthy sense of self

will liberate, but the healthy sense of self will manifest. And do your students, is your goal to bring them to enlightenment? And what do you think enlightenment even means? What the job of living, the goal is to have better human being, healthy human being, calm, kindness human being. so that's all, but there's not too much thinking about enlightenment but if meaning of enlightenment is totally recognized, your true nature.

so Buddha said, what is real meaning of enlightenment, meaning you completely, fully recognize your true nature? It's nothing that you need to go to somewhere or you become like, you can fly or... not like that. Do you see, do you know anybody who's totally recognized their true nature? I mean many people, what we call their are practice which is Recognize nature of mind. So we have

Special in part of liberation. We have special Introduction upon nature mind many people recognize in the West Also, of course we do in the Tibetan tradition some many people are in the West. Also, of course, we do in the Tibetan tradition some many people are in the West, many people recognize their mind and feel very happy and they change their life. Even they change their personality also. I've been seeing them many times, so happy to see and meet those people. Yes. What's the difference for you between the type of students you get in the west and the type of students you get in the east? Um, normally what I call in the east more follow with the faith. Faith.

The beginning. Yes. And the west more follow with the wisdom. Intellectual beginning. So why, how, what then? But in the west, this one, this one next and this one, you have to do like that. So more, how to say, it is more kind of like packets, I mean, delivery. In the West, more, co-ob-co-ob-co-ob-rate, collaborate, kind of a process student and teacher try to see. Yeah. So the students here are probably more of a pain in the butt.

They ask you difficult questions. They need you to explain things more. Yeah. So the students here are probably more of a pain in the butt. They ask you difficult questions. They need you to explain things more. Yeah, I don't just take it on faith. Yeah, yeah, yes, yes. Which is highlight. You like it? Yeah. Which is we have to do in this in general. We have to ask any question and we have to debate about anything. And so even though you're teaching all over the world, you still have a very active practice as I understand that you just finished a long retreat of your own. Yeah. How long? Four and a half. Four and a half years. So you just stepped out of all your teaching. Yeah, I actually I just live from my monastery without having money and not playing and not friends and not nothing. Wait, so you left your monastery? Yeah. With no money, no nothing. Wait, so you left your monastery?

Yeah. But no money, no nothing. Only, it began only a few thousand rupees, maybe five, six thousand rupees in the rupees, that's all. And this is in Nepal. India. India, okay. Yeah, in the midnight.

At midnight. Yeah. And a few thousand rupees, that's not in India, that's not a lot of money. And so, and for four and a half years, you just lived without any plan for food, I'm baking the food by myself. What we call this traditional, another is one-dringed jute. I did, before three years, jute is solid jute, right? 3-4-3 years, so I did, before 3-4 years, it was solidly re-treated.

This one is a 1-2-1 retreat, 1-2-2 meaning no particular money, no fixed plan, no shelter, no resident, and just go. Did you have time when you didn't have any food or things? Of course, of course, the first month I almost died. You almost died? Yeah, yeah, because I just... I was naive, you know. Normally I call I'm like Dharma prince. So I have a lot of things all this. I never stay on street even one hour before. But I have this idea in my mind I wanted to wander in retreat, so I just left. So then I stayed, I moved from my monastery and got the train station nearby there. And from there I bought the cheap train through another place, Holy Place called Wat Anasi.

So I stayed there on the street, in the railway station for three days. So first I feel very embarrassed. I don't mind there's no perfect matter, you know, no utility, no, but just feeling nervous, then I, I mean embarrassed, not nervous, embarrassed. So then I went through another holy place called Kushinagar, the way Buddha passed away, the place where Buddha passed away, Paradnirvana. So then up to three weeks later, all my money is gone. So I have to completely stay on the street. And there was one kind of similar restaurant,

normally I go there and when I have money, I eat food from there. So then I went there and told them that now all my money is finished. So can you give me leftover food? They said, okay, they will give me the leftover food. So you have to come in the night. So I went there every night and took the leftover food. And that food is maybe virus or food poison or something. I have the idea of omitting for three days, no money for medicine.

So I just drink water. There's a well, well water, you know, nearby. I do this, like this, then water is coming. You have to run very fast. Like do this, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch So they may come and pick me up. So then in the end I decided to stay. So prepare for dying. Prepare for dying. So I decided to stay in the end of the day. So I decided to stay in the end of the day. So I decided to stay in the end of the day.

So I decided to stay in the end of the day. So I decided to stay in the end of the day. So I decided to stay in the end of the day. So I decided to stay in the end of the day. So I decided to stay in the end of the day. So I decided to stay in the end of the day. So I decided to stay. So I prepared for dying. So then the morning around 2 a.m. I cannot move my body.

So we have the dying meditation, what we call practice. I'm doing the dying meditation and then I cannot see my eyes, cannot hear and then slowly my body becomes paralyzed. And I am trying to rest my mind in the meditation, you know, what we call open awareness. You just rest your mind into the awareness itself. So awareness is free, always there in the rest. I feel like I am falling and floating and so many things. In the end, I almost become unconscious.

Almost okay, now I'm losing my mind. Suddenly, Wang. I say Wang but I cannot put into it. My mind completely opened. It's like blue sky with sun shining without cloud. So clear, so vivid. And there's no, what do we call normal monkey mind? The mind which is image, the verbal, all these things are gone.

So all the monsters I know by without thinking. And that experience, not have time. No direction, no front, no back completely opened. And I was in that state maybe five, six hours. Then it's continued. Am I dying? No. And try to move my finger, cannot move just like sometime when we have lose it dream and we try to move our body, we cannot move right?

Just like that. I thought my breath is stuck but I don't know maybe not because I cannot really check. But I know my finger cannot move. In the end, I feel like this is not the time for me to die now. Some kind of that feeling comes, and that feeling becomes stronger, and that is some kind of sense of compassion. And suddenly, I feel my body then. It's lollies, lollies, lollies. I can move, I can hear the sound.

Normally, there are so many noise around, which we cannot hear. I hear so many things. I can look around. Before that street was not so nice, I don't want to stay there. I'm not really feeling well. so somehow I'm not really connected but after that wow it's like my home and the ground is so nice and the trees are on there and there's a green shining the branches and so I feel like so gratitude and so much appreciation. Just can appreciate that I have this eyes and can see I'm still breathing.

And so body become very light, so happy. Then I want to drink the water because it feels thirsty. So I sit thirsty. I sit in the up and tried to get the water and I fell down, become unconscious. So I woke up in the hospital, someone took me in the hospital and they put this what you call IV. IV. IV, yeah. And I woke up and I thought where am I? So the person gave me some money also. They said, I will pay your bills. So, that was nice. And I stayed at a hospital one night.

And next day, they said, come back again. But I didn't go back then. From there, I went to the Himalayas mountains. It's the mountains. Mountains, yeah. To the mountains. And continued your retreat. Yeah.

How did you, and you were just living in the mountains? Yeah, from there. In summer, I got the Himalayas mountains, like Nepal, India, I got the different mountains. And in the mountains, people give support. Those I'm lama in the mountains, Tibetan mountains, go to retreat in the mountains. The most in the mountains, there are Buddhists,

the local people. So they are very happy, who do retreat in the cave. They give food, they sometimes even I say, The local people. So they are very happy who do retreat in the cave. They give food, sometimes even I say no, they bring so many things. So in the mountain, nice. And during summer, I come down from mountain because in the mountains, it's too cold. So I went to Buddhist and Hindu holy places. Like Sado, I become Sadhu.

A wandering mendicantius, something like that. So then I went to some different ashram, you know, Hindu ashram. So I can take some free food also. I know where to get free food. So four and a half years, did you have contact with your family? Did you know? I sent one letter from one of the retreats. But they cannot contact me. I just sent a letter.

I sent a letter two times. How did you decide that it was over? I think the earthquake, there's big earthquake in Nepal. Yeah. So then I was a little bit concerned. And that makes me my little bit shorter. You was going to be longer than four and a half years? Maybe. Because it's not a particular plan.

Maybe five, maybe six, maybe ten years. But then somehow four and a half years, I come back. Did what do you think the benefit of that retreat was for you? That's two things, I think. One is I really want to develop my meditation and what do you call it? If we develop certain experience, then if we face typical challenge in our life, it's really good for meditation to develop. Another one is to learn about life.

So, before I'm like Dharma Prince, so I don't know much about life beyond my circle, right? So I learn a lot. So I'm now thinking that I'm become more human than before. You've met a lot of people. Many people, different people. I have to learn how to cook, how to collect the wood, how to, I need to survive by myself, right?

So many things I learned. And after that experience, you described earlier where you almost died, right? Are you less afraid of death now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that time only two hours is very challenge after that. I tried to accept and now ready to die. But I'm not saying coming to suicide those things, you know, but what we call try to accept. And it's natural death, it's okay. If it's a natural death, it's okay. Natural death, meaning I'm not forcing to die, but it comes spontaneously.

Yes. I'm very sent, I have a whole long list of questions that I realize I'm now not going to be able to ask you because I know you need to get back to a lunch. So I'm going to be sensitive to your time. Thank you. Would you come back sometime? Yeah. So I will come. Thank you. I appreciate it.

It was an enormous pleasure to sit here and to be able to speak to you. And now I really appreciate it. Thank you. I'm so happy that you have very great questions and it's very happy and fun talking with you. All right, there's another edition of the 10% Happier Podcast. If you like it, I'm going to hit you up for a favor. Please subscribe to it, review it, and rate it. I want to also thank the people who produced this podcast, Josh Cohan, Lauren Efron, Sarah Amos,

and the head of ABC News Digital, Dan Silver. And hit me up at Twitter, Dan B. Harris. See you next time. Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with 1-3-plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash Survey.