Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 31: Dr. Michael Gervais, Sports Psychologist

Episode Date: August 24, 2016

Mike Gervais is a high-performance sports psychologist who works with athletes, most famously as the mindfulness coach for the Seattle Seahawks, on training the mind and body to work together under the intense pressure of competition. Gervais has helped pro-basketball players, golfers, swimmers, snowboarders, volleyball Olympians, hall of famers and a host of other elite athletes find new approaches to reaching peak performance from within. He talks with athletes and entrepreneurs about their experiences on his podcast, "Finding Mastery." See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

Back in the day, we used to call those mix tapes. Just like you do that with music, you can do it with podcasts. So if you're looking for episodes about anxiety, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes. Or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes, or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist for that. We've even put together a playlist of some of my personal favorite episodes. That was a hard list to make. Check out our playlists at 10%.com slash playlist. That's 10% all one word spelled out. dot com slash playlist singular.

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Now here's the show. From ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. I guess this time, if somebody who's worked, I've followed for a long time, but never met. And in fact, I give a lot of speeches, and when I give speeches, I always talk indirectly about you. Not you, the listener, but you, my guess, Dr. Michael Dervais, goes by Mike, is a sports psychologist who works with athletes, and you have worked quite famously with the Seattle Seahawks. And in my speeches, I was talking about how the Seattle Seahawks have a meditation guy.

No kidding. And, but I've never actually talked to you. You've worked with basketball players, golfers, Red Bull, high performance athletes, extreme athletes, swimmer, snowboarders, but let me just first start with you. How do you get to meditation? Great question. I was in Nuckelhead growing up. And Nuckelhead not in a bad way,

but in Nuckelhead in a way that I appreciated the off-access nature of being a human. It's just like I like the contrary in point of view just a bit. You know, I wasn't a bad kid, but I certainly wasn't one that was following the path that everyone else was following. I grew up in action sports myself surfing motorcross and I was not good at either of them. Yeah I read a story that you were like kind of too

anxious to even enjoy the surfing. Well that's what happened that's kind of what set up this trajectory is that I surfed a lot like a lot. California California yeah I grew up in a farm in Virginia. And then if I feel like I grabbed some roots about being a human on a farm and like a really remote farm, not like a farm that is romantic in any sense, but like a hard working farm. Yeah, my parents kind of dropped out, if you will, and you know, just followed the kind of hippie path

and went into a farm in Virginia. My dad was still working, but it was very much like a different kind of hippie path and went into a farm in Virginia. My dad was still working, but it was very much like a different kind of space. And then surfing took place. They moved west. My dad was in corporate America at that time. They moved west, and I fell in love with surfing. And I was decent. I was a good little kid in our neighborhood in the South Bay of Los Angeles. But then as soon as competition took place, when people were watching, and there was like, you know, girlfriend or parents or friends or whatever on the beach watching, I was a disaster. And I knew that there was not my talent. It was not my skill levels. It wasn't my physical body, but I couldn't feel my

physical body. I couldn't feel my feet. I'm not making it up. Like I really was disconnected from my surfboard and my feet. It's because I was up like I really was disconnected from my surfboard and my feet. It's because I was up in my head worrying about how I would look and what would happen if it went wrong and all that, all that just noise. And so that led me down the path to be curious about this thing, this invisible thing called the mind. Did somebody take you a side one day and say, hey, you ought to meditate? No, it had nothing to do with meditation. So now I'm painting a picture that I'm about 15, 16 in that range. And so high school still. And there was there was another competitor. He was a grown man. And he's competing against me. And he says, Javier, you got us,

I surf with him every day, but we know how each other can surf. And so he paddles by me. And he says, in the midst of a competition says, Javier, you got to stop worrying about what could go wrong And I thought for a moment like Jesus yeah, how does he know that's exactly what I'm doing and so I was I was a mess and he knew it And so he didn't tell me like a good competitor. He didn't tell me what to do But so I just sat there for a moment in the water Bobbing up and down waiting for the next wave and I was like well if I'm not supposed to be thinking about What could go wrong? What is the best thing to think about?

So I started imagining, just doing this imagination thing about what could go right. I didn't know that that was such a thing called performance imagery. I had no idea. So I'm sitting out by myself, you know, in this 60 degree temperature, a little bit cold, very anxious, and then I just started imagining how I wanted to experience the next wave. That set me on a completely different path. But I had no idea there was this thing called psychology. I'm just, I'm literally at that point, wet behind the ears. I did not know about science. I didn't know about, I didn't know about that thing.

My parents, like, did the God love them, did the best job they knew how to raise an off-access kind of risk-taking young intelligent enough kid to be able to get himself out of trouble. What do you mean by off-axis? Just I enjoy seeing things from like a different point of view than mainstream. I guess it would. And off-axis, literally off-axis in action sports is, you know when Olympians go down to hill, ski jumpers, when they go down a hill and they flip in like triple quadruple flips and rotations and it's pure and it's beautiful and it's crisp and they land squarely. Okay, then action sports came along and they said, God, that stuff's crazy, but what if I put a little kink in it? And instead of rotating

exactly 90 degrees, what if I get off-access? And I throw my butt into it. And then I throw, I cork my head around and it just looks totally different. So that off-access, like, it's just a, I don't know, that's the way that I think about off-access, just a little bit of a cork in it. I got it. So, I didn't know anything even about college at that point. My life was not pursuing that direction. I just knew that the mind was rad and I wanted to figure it out.

Did you become a better surfer? Yeah, I mean, just because I was putting in blood, sweat, and tears, and there was no coaching. But the visualization, did that help? Yeah, it did help. And then looking back with hindsight, this is all with hindsight, because I didn't know what I was doing at the time. But I remember thinking, if I think, wow, I feel better when I think about how it could go well. And that thought really did change a lot for me.

But don't you need to think about how it could go wrong? Well, excessive thinking about what could go wrong creates anxiety. Okay, so there is a certain amount of stress that is useful. Distress and you stress are two different concepts. Distress and you stress EU. So concepts. Distress and you stress EU. So you stress me good. Euphoria. Yeah, exactly.

Euphemism, EU. So there is, I mean, for me, mindfulness, as you wish, I should just say that we're doing a double header today. So Michael has his own podcast called Finding Mastery. And so we just did an interview from Mike's podcast, where he interviewed me. So now I'm interviewing him. But in our previous conversation just now in my office, one of the things I was

explained to you is that I think there's a certain amount of stress that's useful, but mindfulness meditation helps you draw the line between useful stress and useless stress. So I agree with what you're saying, but I just suspect that a lot of my type A anxious listeners, their response to your story about, oh, I was worrying about what could go wrong. I think a lot of people will say, don't you need to do some of that? And you're just saying, yeah, you do need to do some, but I was doing too much. Yeah, so it was excessive, right? It was so excessive. Then the part of that story, I think, is really important is I couldn't connect to my body.

And so certainly I couldn't connect to my craft. The thing I wanted to do and to be able to creatively express, like I couldn't do the thing that I knew I could do, that is painful. And it's only because of how much noise I had in my head about what other people would think of me. Now this is all in hindsight, you know, like it's really clear now, at the time it felt like I was just trying to survive. I just need to play it safe and play it small and I'd be okay. But that sucks. Like, that's no way to live. And I knew I had so much more to be able to, again, mind you, like when I talk about surfing, I'm fortunate enough to know some of the best in the world. We play different sports. You know, what they do is ridiculous. But feeling small and just feeling like this is awful, although I loved it, I loved surfing, but the state of mind I was in was awful. That's the excessiveness

of thinking too much about what could go wrong. And so the visualization did break it open for you, were you able to improve? Well, yeah, in that moment, what happened was it was just like this disruptive thought that worked. That competitor that I was just like this disruptive thought that worked. That competitor that I was just talking about disrupted my thinking in a way that gave me a way that I could pivot, or I could say, and pivot to, well, what's good, or I could have said, you know what you're talking about, and I could have just kept doing the thing I'm doing. So it just created this nice little moment, disruptive moment, and then I entertained or explored the other side of it,

which was what could go well. Yeah, it helped. It helped in that moment. The next way felt right. And so I just got it, like, I don't want to say it's a joke, that's not the right word. I just paid attention to what just happened. What happened next, what in your trajectory? I still didn't, I didn't master anything.

I was like, I was still trying to figure out what did I just do. Why did that work? Could I do more of that? Meaning the imagery. So the next immediate thing was like wow there's something happening here. I don't know what that is. But I didn't know who to talk to about it. I didn't know where to go read about it. So I just kept trying to figure it out myself. But I was still not doing school well enough. I was bored, not interested, and I wanted to surf more. And so it was my senior year, and my mom pulled me a side and we're in my kitchen. She said, you know, you've got two options now. Either you're going to need to move out and get a job or go to community college because you didn't take your SATs,

you didn't take your PSITs, you didn't barely kind of got through school. So you don't have any other options, and it's one of those two things. And then there's another pause, because I'm waiting for her to make it better. And she says, you really thought you're going to live here and surf the rest of your life, didn't you?

And I was like, I don't know, it's pretty good. And so I said to myself quietly, I said, I know I can go to school and surf a lot. So I'll try this community college then. And then there's two community colleges. One was like a, one was right by a great surf break and one was kind of it more in the city, if you will. And the one by the great surf break costs some money.

It was a private junior college. And the one in the city was public. And I said, I need to go to the private one, right? I didn't know what private public meant. I had no idea what that. I really had no idea. But I knew it was right in here, good surf break. And so I was going to figure out how to surf and go to school. And my parents said, okay, listen, we'll figure this out. But you need to pull in good grades. So that's the only way this is going to work. We're not going to do this thing again. So I remember going to school saying, all right, well, let me just see if I can serve a

little bit more. And what ended up happening is there was three professors. What was the theologian, what was the philosopher, and what was the psychologist? And those guys, they taught me to fall in love with being fascinated with the invisible. They put their arms around me metaphorically and challenge me and I loved it and no one ever had to ask me to read a book again, you know, and I just, it just lit me on fire trying to figure out, how does this frickin' mind thing work? And what is the meaning of life? Like, what are these mystics and spiritual leaders trying to sort out? So, did you cut down on your surfing?

So did you cut down on your surfing? Yes and no. I actually increased my anxiety. And so, yeah, I know. It's not supposed to go this way. But I was in a relationship with a woman who I ended up marrying. We dated since high school, on and off, on and off, more on. I was slated off, or that relationship doesn't work well. And I didn't know this at the time, but I was waking up trying to do too much before breakfast. And I was, it wasn't doing, it was, I was thinking about what I wanted to do in school, how

is it going to serve, how is it going to, you know, be in a relationship, how is it going to have fun, what is it going to do tonight. All of the stuff that I was trying to sort out, I guess high school kids were trying to figure out schedule and how to study, I didn't know either of those. And I wanted to serve, I wanted to study, and I wanted to be in a relationship, and I wanted to have fun. So I remember looking back now, my hands shaking

while I was brushing my teeth. So I went up to Dr. Cousio, the psychology professor, and we're in the middle of the college campus, and I said, hey, do you have a minute? He was like, what's up, Mike? And this is like semester two. We don't know each other, but I'm inspired. Like, I'm really inspired by him. And I said, hey, I'm having a really hard time.

And he goes, okay, what's up? And I said, like, it's really hard. I'm really anxious right now. And my hands are shaking. And I said, look, and I showed him my hands, and I'm kind of sweating and kind of anxious. And he just stopped me. And he at me and he interrupted the conversation and he said, when your doorbell rings, do you have to answer it?

And then he walked away. I was like, these fucking psychology people are weird. Like what? And so I was like agitated. And so I didn't know what he meant. That was just weird. That was just odd. Like I went home a little agitated,

and I'm still anxious and agitated. And the next day I saw him again, I say, he docked, do you have a minute? And he goes, yeah, what's up Mike? And I said, hey, I don't think I translated this right. I'm kind of a mess right now. And he stopped and he looked at me again. He said, when your phone rings,

this is before cell phones. When your phone rings, do you have to answer it? And he did the same thing. He walked away. Your last mother and I have to end. I mean, like, I don't know where he's going with this. No. So I said, I got to figure this thing out.

So I had a chance to talk to him about it another time. And he said, listen, just because something is interrupting your flow, whatever that is, you don't have to entertain it. And the door knocking in the phone ringing was an analogy for your thoughts, you know, thoughts that were getting in the way of whatever it is that you're doing. Great little story, great little thing, and it was disruptive to me.

Disruptive, not in the majority, in a good way. In a good way. You use that word in a good way. Yeah, like being disruptive, like, changing your paradigm. Yeah, exactly. And so there I am. And so I'm like, oh, I don't have to answer the door.

I don't have to entertain the thoughts. But the thoughts that I was thinking a lot about were all about what could go wrong. Now, I'm not doing a like a what if analysis. That would be smart. Come to find out as a little kind of point or asterisk in this part of the conversation is that science would suggest to us now that what if scenarios are good but less potent than imagery than

performance success-based imagery, even outcome-based imagery. So it's just the meandering and the wandering and the wildness of those stories in our own mind that get us twisted, change our physiological state, and create a sense of internal civil war that is not needed. And it's only because my mind was undisciplined, and I didn't have a coach, I didn't have someone to teach me about it, and I was just a knucklehead kid trying to figure it out. How did you discipline the mind? So now we're getting into this stuff that you and I are going to appreciate, I think even more, is that I didn't know how to discipline it. So I studied it and I was becoming

more interested in the field of psychology, the science of it. So I graduated from Loyola Marymount in an undergraduate degree in psychology after the junior college. After the junior college. And so what do I do next? And I asked a mentor at the time of mine like what do you think? And he said keep going, this is easy, this is good for you, like keep going. So I enrolled in, was accepted, then enrolled in Pepperdine University. And a master's degree program in psychology. But it was the study of dysfunction, disorder. It was the study of what was broken about the human mind.

And on the second semester, as I can't study the brokenness of the human. Now God loves anyone that does. We do need that, but it wasn't a good fit for me. And so I dropped out and my mentor at the time said, Michael, there's this field. It's kind of new, but there's this field of psychology that has something to do with sport. Maybe you should check that out. So I thought, oh, there you go. So that trajectory then took place.

So a massage and kinesiology and kinesiology is a big fancy word for the study of muscles and motion, but there's not enough there for me. So I went back and got a PhD in psychology with the emphasis and sport, and it just so happened that the university had a Tibetan psychology program as well. It was just like convergence of great minds in the field. So I took a shot and it was great. I loved it. I loved every part of it. And they had to Tibetan psychology there too? Yeah, like a cr- literally across the hall was a Tibetan psychology program. So I tell this story and this is more of a romantic storytelling than kind of actual concreteness, but day one, of course it wasn't day one, but like day one there's all these kind of jock clinical research-based

prof- you know, budding professionals, right? And across the hall are all of these spiritual, process-based folks that are dressed very differently. They've got lots of orange. It's just very, very different. And I remember thinking that that's really amazing, that they've dedicated their life to this, but someone's going to take their lunch money. And so, and I'm sure they were thinking about us that

You know what's gonna happen is those guys are gonna get the outcomes that they want but they'll be lost But by the end of the four years it was like this thing that took place where Outcome and process blended for me at least. We're in there I know somewhere in there you started to meditate how and why did that? Okay, so that's where that's where I'm getting to. So, the Tibetan psychology program, Walt Rutherford was the head of that program. He would just lead every class. We'd sit down in a normal class.

So you started taking classes in the Tibetan, with a Tibetan? No, no, no. He also taught, like, group psychology, and he taught a couple other classes as well. He was a psychologist that was a Vietnam vet that found Buddhism. And so he's a director of the program. I don't know any of this at the time. And so we sat, we started every class and he says, okay, everyone close your books, sit back in your chair, put your feet on the ground and just follow me. He started every class meditating. So I was like, it just happened. And I was like, oh, that's pretty good.

And then you talk about it for a few minutes. It was like six minutes. You know, no big deal. And then we'd riff on that for a few minutes. And then we'd get into science. And that was every class. And then, so, he was the first person that showed me really in a sophisticated, thoughtful, formalized way,

how to be a man and express emotion. And so he taught me a lot. More than he probably would, you know, recognize. And so I was just really attracted to that. You know, he made really difficult decisions in war, came back not the same person that he went to and struggled. And he struggled with his thoughts and he struggled with his emotions. At least that's why I understood his story and he found Buddhism. And but he also had a science appreciation as well. And what did the six minutes a day of that do for you? Why did you like it and how did it grow from there?

Looking back now, what it did, it just closed all the mental files that were open and running. I would just settle in and I could get to the signal, whatever that was, whatever that meant for that day. And all the noise was just fading away. And so it was moments of peace. And it happened faster than I thought.

So then I just started doing it more and more and more and more. And then I had a surfing accident where I had two hot disks, one popped out and one popped in in my C-spine, my upper neck. And it stopped everything. I couldn't move basically. You know, I wasn't paraplegic or quadriplegic. It wasn't that bad, but the burn, the chronic burn between my shoulder blades was unbelievable.

And so I started to turn that meditation into healing imagery because none of the traditional modalities were working. And I actually have an interesting pre MRI and post MRI of imagery. And it was working. It was physically changing the structure of my anatomy. So that's pretty big claim. I don't talk about it because people think I'm crazy. Like I get that exact response that you just had.

Like it sounds kooky. But I don't talk about it often because- No surgery. No, I didn't need surgery. So the visualization was the only thing that did it. Well, so I was- Time. I was doing everything.

Heat, ice, stem, acupuncture. I couldn't get enough massage and soft tissue work. And what I realized after 18 months is the doc said He said I think it's time for surgery I can't remember it was 20 something I was like I'm not getting next surgery. I'm too young Like I just got to figure this thing out and so I said give me another 30 days. This is about 18 months in and Mind you at that time. I was looking for everything outside of me to heal me I months in and mind you at that time I was looking for everything outside of me to heal me. I mean it was like as soon as someone put their hands on me I was like okay maybe I'm

gonna get this relief and I didn't do my own work. I was like kind of like a phony. I was studying it a lot every once in a while doing you know stuff with with Dr. Rutherford Walt and not doing enough of it to really feel the difference. And that's so I said, hey doc, give me 30 days for a second MRI. He goes, okay, you look at me like, okay, whatever, Jure. And so he gave it to me, popped it back up.

And I can talk about what I saw in the imagery, but I don't know if that's important, but post on the second MRI, that little piece of matter that was pushing against my spinal cord was gone. But there was a little calcium buildup of where it once was. So I said, I didn't want to sound crazy

in front of this medical professional. I said, what do you think happened? You said, I don't know. Sometimes they just move. I said, well, and then so then I hit the panic button again. I said, do you think it moved up or below the picture that we took? It was, no, not like that, but sometimes the body just eats them up.

But that was what I was seeing. That's what I was seeing in my mind. I had these Mickey Mouse hands that were spiritually fueled. I'm not crazy, okay. There's spiritually fueled, I don't know where this came from. Are you making this meditation up? Yeah, kind of making it up. And how long, how much of it were you doing?

Well, there was a very fringe research on healing meditation, you know, healing imagery. And so I was kind of pulling from some fringe science, which is uncomfortable for me to say. But so it was 17 minutes a day. That was like my tolerance and my wife was here. She'd be like, yeah, it was pretty consistent. Every night, 17 minutes, sitting in my little apartment and just seeing these little infused

Mickey Mouse glove hands, a little bit wet. And the structure of my body, I was seeing it like the water was like removing layers of clay on that little piece of matter. It was floating around my spinal cord. I get why you don't tell a story. It sounds crazy, but I mean, but it happened. I get why you don't tell a story. It sounds crazy, right? Yeah, but I mean, but it happened. So what are you gonna do?

Well, yeah, and so for a long time, I didn't talk about it because it sounds so, I don't know, woo, woo, and out there and whatever. And so I just kind of ignored it, kept it myself and doubled down on science. I mean, I'll just go back to what I said. That's your experience, like it happens. So it's hard to argue with.

But let me answer this, Walt, who was teaching on a meditating class. That's right. What kind of meditation was he teaching you? What were the mechanics of that meditation, and were you doing that too? Yes, yes. So that was how I was starting. He taught us basic, who am I, contemplative work, and then very much a single point focus,

which just relentlessly followed your breath. Just keep going. And did those varieties of meditation blossom for you? Did you keep doing those? That's tough too. Yeah, I did. And just because it felt like I was figuring things out, that's what it felt like.

But it's not like all of a sudden, you're different. And no, no, it's like, but I feel it's a little bit, the image that comes to mind is, you've had a toothache or you've had something like that is a chronic pain or something that's bugging you right now. And if you get going with the rest of your life that day and you look back at,

oh, I had a toothache early in the morning. Well, it's kind of gone. It feels as though the duration of mindfulness work has led me to not have that toothache that I had as a kid, which was all that angst and all that anger. That's how I worked it out. I was a pissed off little kid, not little kid, but adolescent. And that's how I worked it out. I was a pissed off little kid, not little kid, but adolescent. And that's how I worked it out. But so it just feels like that pain, that ache in that way.

It's just not as intense anymore. So would you tell somebody, just back to your visualization story, would you tell somebody who's got a real back issue to visualize it away or would you just say this worked for me? Yeah, I don't even bring it up because I tried it a couple times with athletes and I've talked a few, a little bit with athletes about it And I throw it out there like hey listen There's something weird that that took place. I can't quite explain it

But I want to tell you a story about healing imagery which is totally on the fringe of science So I always make sure that I'm anchoring it Accordingly I tell the story to some folks, but then what I realize is that it's so out there that it set up this thing where they weren't sure that they were good enough, skilled enough of the mind to get that to happen. So it's almost like it was setting up this, the ceiling was too high now. And so I don't even talk about it really, but if it happens to me again, and I had this chronic thing, thousand percent, I'm doubling down on using my mind,

here's the way I work with it. Your body, my body right now is trying to heal. That's what it's doing, right? We stress it all day long with thinking, with doing, and it's so sophisticated that it's trying to recover as fast as it possibly can. So if that's the case, and recovery we know on the world stage is equally if not more important than stress.

Intelligent stress, smart training, and intelligent recovery is the name of the game, right? And so if your body is trying to recover right now, then if I just quiet my mind and focus, so I'm not stressing it even more with noise, internal noise. And I then move my mind's attention to focusing on the thing that I want most inside of my body. I think that there's something there that's working. After a quick break, you're the guy who works with a Seattle Seahawks. So when you walk into a locker room and say, hey famous enormous aliens, you should meditate.

How does that go? Yeah, it didn't go like that. After this. Hey there listeners, while we take a little break here, I want to tell you about another podcast that I think you'll like. It's called How I Built This, where host Guy Razz talks to founders behind some of the Take a little break here, I want to tell you about another podcast that I think you'll like. It's called How I Built This, where host Guy Razz talks to founders behind some of the world's biggest and most innovative companies, to learn how they built them from the ground

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this wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and add free on the Amazon or Wondery app. So you're studying to be a sports psychologist, you also happen to be a meditator. And then you go out into the world and you start working as a sports psychologist and you want to introduce meditation to your clients. I didn't. You didn't. This is my question because you started meditating before it was cool. Yeah. This is a lot of time ago. What? 1999. 1999. Okay. So definitely before it was cool. Yeah. How did you start using it with your patients? Yeah, I don't. What's the 1999. 1999, okay. So definitely before it was cool.

How did you start using it with your patients? Yeah, I don't, what's the right return patient? Yeah, I like it that you just picked that up on that. Is that I don't call them patients? I call them athletes. Athletes. Yeah, and I even hesitate saying that because they're people. Yeah.

And they're inspired people that are wanting to change the way the world works, one in the change the way they work. And so it's like highly motivated driven, you know, kick people. And so when you propose meditation to these people, are they looking to you like you're crazy? I didn't bring it up. You didn't. For the same things, I didn't bring up the other stuff. Like, it seems crazy. And I didn't have that ability to say this was the game changer because I was doing the traditional clinical training route and There was no I didn't know of any science around it. So I you know Feel like I'm over indexing on the importance of science, but it's so important as a guiding principle for me

That as well as the human spirit which we can't see we can't measure So I'm always toggling back in between those two so I first indexed on wanting to understand the person in front of me and investing a lot of time on that with high regard, just wanting to understand. And then I indexed on, let me strike that. The thing that I spent most time was trying to understand the person. And then I thought I was the really smart person

that would find just the right tool for the right person at the right time. And I'd use that good science to say, oh, you know what? Well, it sounds like imagery is right for you. It sounds like self-talk or it sounds like a cognitive restructuring. Bah, bah, bah, bah, bah, what all that stuff is. And then I realized like, I'm giving them a tool, but they didn't necessarily ask for it. They want it, but maybe, you know, it was just clunky. So, you know, then the movement started, like people have their own answers. We've all been successful at times,

similar to the thing we're trying to sort out now, but maybe we're not clear exactly how we got there and what exactly we did. So then these conversations I was having with people was just really trying to help them reveal their wisdom, their insight, their practices. They're in sight. They're practices. Before we started recording, you said there's a difference between advice and what you do.

Yeah, a lot of people give me some advice, Doc. And I think that how dare I give you advice and I've never lived a day in your shoe. So you just try to suss out of them their own answers in wisdom? Yeah, and it's working from a framework like it really is working from a mindfulness approach, which is we don't go find wisdom, we reveal it. And so revealing our internal wisdom is the path and challenges and tests and moments of intensity reveal the command we have of ourselves. And there's times when we have zero command and we have attacks that are really uncomfortable. And there's times where we're substandard to being able to control and have command of our mind and our craft and our body.

And that pain hopefully is real so that we invest more deeply in being a whole human so that we can train our mind, our body, maybe our spirit, and our craft to be able to do the things that we want to do consistently, consistently well. So you said initially you weren't talking about meditation with people, but ultimately obviously you did. So what changed that? Yeah, great question, because there wasn't one thing that unlocked it, but I do think that when I just ran out of like It didn't feel whole trying to help people just have mental tools and skills Don't get me wrong like I think they're great like understanding the mechanics of confidence and how Confidence really works is really important and mindfulness won't teach you that Mindfulness doesn't teach the mechanics of confidence and it doesn't teach the right way to build confidence. It teaches

something maybe deeper, which is accept who you are and by figuring out who you are, who am I? And so that's really rich and deep. That takes a long time. And when people need to respond on command in a hostile, rugged environment, they also need to, I think, need to have such a command of where their mind goes that they can place it right in the right way. And I can hear some of my teachers saying, Mike, just help them be fluid and say, hello and goodbye to their thoughts, which is all great.

Yeah, that's kind of mindfulness. Yeah, that is mindfulness, right? Yeah, and the other part is like, yeah, well, what is a good thought for this moment? And then I hear my other, some of my teachers saying, did you say good thought? Like, that's a judgmental term. And so, there's this ebb and flow between judgment, non-judgment, and ease, and fluidity, and accuracy.

And I think there's a combination of the two of mindfulness and skills that help people perform and be in calm moments and rugged moments. So it was a cocktail effectors and it happened slowly that allowed you to start introducing this practice that was a benefit to you to the people with whom you were working? Yeah, so it was like this. The cocktail was really me honoring that this was, this was mindfulness made a big difference in my life. And I need to share and talk about it more.

And it also helped that great athletes, they're present. And they're also looking for every advantage. Every advantage. But here's the question. You said before you don't give advice. That's right. So if you want to propose something like meditation, isn't that advice?

Yeah. So it sounds a little something like this to me. They'll say things like, how are you so grounded? And I'll say well, I don't know. I've worked at it. Well, how do you work at it? Well, okay? You know and so or you know Damn, you know X person over there like they looks like they got it all together And then so we'll just talk about what they're looking for and they'll say you know

I'm just looking to be grounded I'm looking to have you know, so okay, what do you think people mean by grounded? Having weight so having weight Means that for me it conjures up this idea of fullness but just being rooted where if when I'm anxious It feels like the like a weable wobble, but flipped upside down, right? Like my head is bigger somehow than my my base. So like Sometimes you meet people and their eyes are flitting around. They're looking over your shoulder

You're looking at their phone. You don't feel like they're with you That's not grounded. That's unground that would certainly be ungrounded and then and that's an every LA party, isn't it? Yeah, I don't go to a lot of LA party, I go a lot of parties, but yes, I've seen it. Yeah, I mean, I try not to, but that's what it feels like. But then, even if no one else is around, there's, and you have it, you're grounded. So I would, like, how did you do it?

You know, like, you have weight about you. And the analogy that I was gonna talk about is like, I don't know, have you ever been in a fist fight? I don't know, have you ever been in a fist fight? I don't know that. Uh, two times in my life, somebody's punched me in the face. So I didn't fight back because I was on the ground. Oh, did you get knocked out or down? Not, no, actually, in either case that I get knocked down,

actually, I think I was just stunned and then everybody around intervened. Yeah, that's what happens, right? Did you know you were going to get punched? No. Okay, so there's a moment right before you're about to get into a fight. I'm not advocating violence by any means, but it was the way that I knew how to deal with my anxiety.

And so there's weight that comes in that moment when it's real. And so it's like your hipstrop and there's a heaviness that comes in that moment when it's real. And so it's like your hip strap and there's a heaviness that comes in that moment. And that heaviness is, and I don't, I don't encourage violence by any means. I don't think it's useful. But moments that are really intense where you could become really hurt, whether that's the backcountry skiing and heavy environments, or that's saying something that is authentic in a board room, or sharing something that's intimate, but truthful and difficult to say to a loved one,

those moments either you flutter and kind of move away out of fear, or you drop your hips and you own it. And it's that weight that I'm trying to put words and images to. Got you, I got you. So once you did, once it, once it started to happen that you were, you were talking about meditation with the folks,

or the athletes with whom you were working, how did that go down? Because like, you're the guy who works with a Seattle Seahawks. So when you walk into a locker room and say, hey guys, famous, enormous, you're almost aliens, you should meditate. How does that go? Yeah, it didn't go like that. Okay. The way it went is the culture at the Seattle Seahawks begins and ends with Coach Carroll. Yeah. Yeah, Coach P Carroll. And so P Carroll and I have

rich conversations about the mind and how to optimize and put in systems and strategies and language and he's really good at it. And he's got a history of paying attention to mindfulness as well. And is he a meditator? Well, you have to ask him. And so I'm grinning when I say that because maybe that's a good conversation for you at some point. Yeah, well, I'd love to talk to you.

So that being said, so we have a really great conversation. Now the way that it works I think most most eloquently is when it's organic. And so you might have a different approach with this I don't know but organic conversations that happen where people want to know more and they're open and they're already there rather than like okay everyone grab a seat're going to go through less than one. 95% of rooms like forget about it. So it's not that by any means. And so it's organic, it's hallway conversations, it's small kind of conversations happening off the field, walking into the locker room, walking out on the field. It's like really organic and

It starts with the coaches and so talking about what to some of the best in rugged environments and hostile environments Mike, what have you learned and so it's a learning environment there and so what have you learned and so then we just talk Then we talk about all the things that they've learned, I've learned, and then those conversations just kind of spread. But here's something on this thought, is that so then ESPN got wind of it. This is probably the article you read. And yeah, I had the quarterback on the front cover, so the Lotus position, Russell Wilson. Russell Wilson. And we got a whiplash from that internally. Like it did, the word meditation,

all of a sudden everyone whipped into that, that was the reason the Seahawks were successful, which is not accurate. The reason the Seahawks are successful is because the talent, they worked their, they're off, the great coaches, they're strategic and excellent, the head coach creating a culture, the GM creating, finding great talent, the scouts working their,

they're off to figure out the right fits. You know, the nutrition program, the essences, the strength and conditioning, the medical crew. It's so many moving parts that that's why they're successful. Not to mention an owner who like really wants to help and support successful platforms. But the article didn't say is all meditation. Yeah. Isn't a huge part of it. I think it was. I mean, what the the image on the front. You talked about the culture though. Yeah, you did. Yeah, they they they did. But the

athlete was sitting low. Yeah, well, that's true. So the imagery is overpowered the words. Certainly. Because if you look at the article, this is from ESPN in the magazine 2010, I think. Yes. And I use the image of Russell Wilson in my PowerPoint. When I go over, I use that picture, and Russell Wilson is seated in Lotus Position on the front of the magazine, very, very powerful image. But if you read that magazine article, and I just reread parts of it this morning in preparation to talk to you, it really talks about the culture of the organization and how it's a very different kind of team. Yeah, that's Yeah, I'm glad you picked that up. Because that's exactly the right way, I think, that feels organic and honest about what's happening.

The athletes are phenomenal, the coaches are amazing, and the culture creates enough space for people to celebrate who they are. And so that is not because of meditation. That is because of a bunch of humans that want to figure out how to be their very best. And that part of the conversation starts with Pete Carroll, Coach Carroll saying, listen guys, this is how I think it would look to be amazing for us. You know, there's a particular style to the Seahawks and that message runs through that. You got to compete to be your very best, and that begins and ends with his mission. So I understand there are lots of variables,

I totally get that. But as it pertains to mindfulness, how do you work with an athlete, and how do you think mindfulness practice meditation, whatever you want to call it, helps an athlete? So training is important. And so that's why mindfulness training feels like it's something different than meditation

Right, really you could replace the same those words we you in our prior conversation on your podcast We were talking about because I talk about meditation. You call it mindfulness training right yeah, yeah and Mindfulness slash meditation, you know, we can use those same words it they conjure up something different meditation Consars up granola Birkenstocks, tree hugging. Trying to change that, man. Butters and chains. Yeah, and I want to support you in changing that.

And so the way that I'm doing it, and it's funny, based on our previous conversation, so I use the word mindfulness in training. And I put those two things together. That's not unique. That's just the way it works in alpha competitive environments. And when they talk about it, sometimes they, meeting athletes or coaches,

talk about mindfulness, but oftentimes they just call it what it is. Meditating. Yeah. So it's an exciting time for it. The science is burgeoning, and it's exciting to see what's happening, and people that are cool are talking about it.

And the science must be useful for you as a, for lack of a better term, sales tactic, like not in terms of pedaling your wares to various teams. I mean, when you're talking to an individual athlete, to be able to say, hey, look, there's a significant amount of science here that you can change your brain. But back to my question, how does mindfulness training to use your language help an athlete? By helping them become more aware. Awareness is, if there's two pillars as I've come to understand, and I've also come to understand that there's so much to know that I won't begin to pretend like being the person that holds

the information here, because I know you've been deep into this path. That if there's two pillars, there's awareness and the second pillar being insight and wisdom. And maybe column three, but I call them two, right? And so awareness of what thoughts, awareness of emotions, awareness of how your body is experiencing this moment, and then awareness of the unfolding environment. And so if we just stopped there, athletes or performers

or people would be better at their craft. So that's the first kind of mechanism. There's a coach or athlete that doesn't recognize or nod their head, especially on the world stage that says, oh yeah, the inter, the mental game is important. And so what does that mean? It means that thoughts impact performance. I want to have great thoughts.

Okay. Well, here's a way that there's great research. There's lots of people that have been doing it for thousands of years. The samurai warriors were attracted to this in traditions, and here's what it looks like. When the rubber hits the road, what does it look like? What is the practice that you teach

and how is it useful in a cute moment? If you imagine a heavyweight boxer in a gym, right, large human being and he needs to stand toe to toe with another human being and there's nowhere to go. I have such respect for all martial arts because there's nowhere to go, right? And so it's you with another skilled human being in a small environment. And they all know that it's heavy bags important. To hit the heavy bag is an important part of training. And of course there's philosophical differences on when and how much and all that good stuff. But if you were to ask a heavyweight boxer

or any boxer for that matter, hey, do you hit the heavy bag? And he says, yeah, when I'm walking out to the car, like I'll hit it a few times and then walk out. Well, that's not training. Like, that's just hitting it a couple times. So it's like saying, you know, do you pay attention to your thoughts?

Yeah, if once in a while, you know, I kind of think about it. That's not training. So discipline training just feels like there's some sort of commitment and a consistent commitment to either single point or contemplative, kind of wandering meditation or mindfulness work. And so it's like the discipline is like structuring a particular amount of time and maybe it's

one minute, maybe it's ten breaths, maybe it's three minutes. If you can do one, you can do three minutes. Maybe it's, we double down and get to six where research is starting to suggest that at about six minutes we're starting to see some changes. Maybe you can work your way up to what optimal doses would be if you're following this kind of science route, you know, 20 minutes. And so it just looks like that. It's a progressive model of staying more, spending more time in a quality way connected

to one breath at a time. And how do you say, you, so you work with somebody like Russell or these great athletes? How do you see, what kind of impact does it have on them? What are they reporting to you about what it does for their performance? Well, once we're aware of our thoughts, then we can adjust and we can be swift with that adjustment and come back to now more often. So excellence happens now. It happens in the present moment. And if there is a string

that pulls together a human potential, if there's a string that binds human potential, it's stringing together moments. And the more moments that we can be fully here now, it increases the frequency of us being able to access our craft at a high level. I'm not finding the best way to say that right now, but the idea is that if somebody can increase the amount of time that they're spending in the present moment, and because of that, they can adjust more eloquently and swiftly to whatever the demands are. They're going to be able to access their craft at a higher rate at more successfully. And then if you get a string of a bunch of those moments together, you might just get glimpses

or end-or-touch your potential. So let me just see if I can throw at a hypothetical situation. I'm Russell Wilson, I just got sacked. And I gotta get up and do the next play. You know what, I wanna drive down the field and score a touchdown. If I'm totally drenched in resentment

against my defensive line, self-laceration about being in the wrong place or not finding somebody to hit in the field in order to get rid of the ball before I get tackled. The next play is going to suck too. So is it about managing the thoughts and emotions in moments like that so that you can be maximally resilient? Yeah, so one play at a time, right? You hear that that thought in sport all the time and in the spiritual frames, your spiritual communities around my family, you're here one thought or one breath at a time, right? They're no different. And so being aware of wherever your feet are, being present with where your feet are, is a necessary ingredient for being able to access your craft and do the thing that you've trained to be able to do.

And so, yes, you sacked, somebody sacked, something happens. If you're going to go to the line of scrimmage with that play in mind and the current play, football and or any sport is happening too fast to try to manage the past, the future and now. So it's about letting go of the past. Literally that sounds like a spiritual thing, right? Like a very much of a Buddhist or mindfulness approach. And we talk about letting go of the last play. And so to do what though, be here now. And so there's a requirement in this moment for you, for me, and there's a requirement for athletes in whatever moment they're in. So can we be fully here in this

moment? And the greater awareness we have that our mind is thinking about what went wrong just a moment ago or what could go wrong a moment ahead. It's just, I don't know, it's just too much noise. It's like you on the surfboard. That's exactly what it was. Yeah. But you're basically over and over helping you on the surfboard. It's unbelievable. So back to Walt one more time. Can I say a funny story? Yeah.

You're everyone. I don't have any rules here. Funny is like, I guess it's according to me. You'll be the determinant of funny here. And then I'm thinking out loud. It's not that funny, but it's good. So I was really nervous. I just graduated. I was kind of not that funny, but it's good. So I was really nervous. I just graduated.

I was kind of done. I was about to get licensed. And I said to Walt, hey, Walt, I knew all this theory and everything. I said, well, what do I do if somebody comes into my office and they're suicidal? I know what the theory suggests, but really, what do I do? It goes, that's a good question. It goes, you have any more? I said, yeah, what if someone comes in and maybe like, I've never dealt with a rape scenario?

Like, what happens there? He goes, oh, good question. Do you have any more? I said, yeah, what about severe depression? You're not sure if they're suicidal or not. And you see where this is going, right? And he goes, yeah, you have any more? Like there's endless, countless scenarios that could happen in our lives.

So he just kind of stopped and he looked at me and he said, just everything you need is already inside you. And be there for the other person. And everything you need is gonna also show up in the chair next to you. So just pay attention. There's money in that. I mean, not literally money, but like that phrase,

those thoughts have just been really important to me that yes, I'm still working out that 15 year old kid, but I've made peace with it, that I didn't know how to do it then. And I'm fortunate enough to work with some of the brightest minds in the world and in craft, whether it's music or arts or sport and entrepreneurs. And they're teaching so much. They have so much insight, especially those that know the mechanics of risk and to be clear with the i didn't also i didn't realize you also deal with

entrepreneurs and musicians and uh... high performers in every acts at every sphere of life mediation is one of the tools you were mindfulness training is one of the tools that you bring to the table you've got you also dealing with people as a psychologist and talking about their past and whatever Trauma they may be getting over. No, no, yeah, don't do that. You don't do that. No, no, no I mean I'm licensed, you know, and I have one to three clients a month

That's just kind of the way the the business model works for me and when I sit down with a client. It's eight hours eight hours and one day and that's we go to work So but there's no like discussing like you're really shit with your mom or anything like that. Maybe, a little bit of context, just to get a little bit of context. But if we're always going back to solve something that happened way back, when do we focus on the beauty of the future? When do we focus on the ability to have command now? What do you do over eight hours?

We go to work. Yeah. What do you do over eight hours? We go to work. Yeah. What does that mean? You're like, you really want to know. Yeah, I want to know. So I have to give away your secrets or for me. There's no secrets. Yeah, there's no secrets by any means.

So we'll have, start with questions like, who are you? What's it like to be you? You're one of the most famous people in the world. What's I like? And we're just know, you're one of the most famous people in the world. What's that like? And you know, we're just trying to, I'm trying to figure out and he or she is trying to articulate who they are. So we're starting with that, that piece. I'm wanting to understand their psychological framework. And then back of my mind, I'm trying to sort out, are they pessimistic? Are they optimistic? Are they lovers or they fighters? You know, I'm just trying to sort out like who is this person? That's the beginning base work. And then I'm trying to sort out what are their strengths?

Because that's what we're going to double down on. We're going to index on those. And then we're going to figure out together like what are the right ways to amplify, to train your mind, to celebrate those strengths that you already come to the world with? And you may or may not bring up mindfulness within the context of the day. Usually, yeah, at this point most people know that you're the meditation guy from the COX. Yeah, yeah, that usually comes up.

People want that now. They do want it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a big change, I imagine, in your practice. Yeah, yeah. Because initially it was like, how do I talk about this without people thinking I'm going to freak? And now it's like, you've come to you for it.

Yeah, because remember, like 20 years ago, or whatever that was, it was, you know, alpha, alpha competitor scenarios, whether it's business or sport, nothing soft really works in those environments. And now, the stuff isn't soft. The military is doing it. Yeah, it's not soft, but there is flexibility in this. Like, you know, yin and yang, light and dark, hard and soft, whatever are all required to build anything beautiful. And so I think that this part of the conversation, because it's so challenging, and people know it,

we're overloaded right now as a society with external stimulus. So creating space, people are hungry to create space to just be still, to be here, to get to know themselves, to reinvent themselves. And I think you'll appreciate this is that people aren't sure, am I doing, am I doing it? Like I'm focusing on my breathing, but am I doing it? It's a huge question. What just happened? Yes, it's a huge question. The greatest answer I heard that was David Gellis who's been on the show before and he's a business reporter for the New York Times He's actually columnist now for the times to a business columnist and really smart really driven dude in in the world

And I once asked him like what is your meditation practice like yeah, yeah, yeah, I try to pay attention to my breath and when I get lost I start again That's it. I'm not is it that if you have a question about are you doing it right? Are you doing that? Yeah, there you go. There you go. That's exactly it. So you mentioned to me before we started recording that you had done an interview, you, Pete Carroll and John Kabatzen at wisdom 2.0, which is a sort of conclave of mindfulness

folks that happens on both coasts, but the big ones on the west coast. And that John Capitzin, who's like the father of modern secular mindfulness, had really honed in on the fact that you guys were teaching meditation in the context of what is often described as a very violent sport. So my mind, because I recently had on a major general from the US Army and a neuroscientist who was working with said major general to teach mindfulness to troops, to make them

less reactive in the field and more resilient when they get home against the scourge of PTSD. But these two people have been beset by critics from the Buddhist world, but you know, you're training better baby killers. How do you deal with this question that you'll get off and from a more traditional meditation community that our little practice is being perverted by providing it to violent people? Yeah, it's a great challenge, that's a great thought.

And if we really have, I think, if we orientate ourselves that have high regard for other people, they're choosing a path. And that path feels, for most people, noble and right. I don't know many people that say, you know what, I'm a bad person. I'm an awful human being that does really ugly things in the world, and I'm trying to make the world worse.

You know, it's like, so most people are wanting to love life. They're wanting to figure out like how to be better and some are you know, struggle with fame and some struggle with needing more money and some struggle with all the trappings that we have as humans but the sport of football and our boxing or UFC or hockey or basketball and some respects, you know, there's physical contact and that contact's intense. There is a brutality to combat sports. And there's also something really beautiful about it, not in a twisted way, but to see

bodies be able to do what they're able to do and to be present, there's a lot to learn from that as well. And remember that sport was the first origins of sport were to keep warriors ready, all sports, or to keep warriors ready in times of non-war. So if you love sport, you are connected to the, you know, some ancient thread of preparing people for violence. And so, I don't know, I would say it's the same thing like the vegan who's wearing leather shoes. You know, it's kind of like, well, if you watch sport, you're connected somehow to the physical form

doing things that are difficult to do. And so I don't know, I don't have a challenge with it. Like I think that they've dedicated their life to their art and their craft and everyone's adults. They've signed up for it and it is really freaking hard to do what they do. This is looping back to something we discussed earlier that it's often said or I've heard it said and maybe you're the other guy who will know that the difference between a good

athlete and a great athlete is mental. Yeah, that gets thrown around quite a bit. Is that true, you think? Well, I think on the world stage it is. In recreation sports, not true. Okay. No, but I mean, good. Like, no, that joke of it, For example, the guy is a pretty active

meditator. He has said I've heard that it's really about the point in between points. Michael. So, so there's again, I mean, if you're listening to that, I want to have you on the show and be I'm sorry if I'm just quoting you. But this seems to me that there's something there. I mean, you everybody trains, everybody, you know, works out, everybody, you know, if you're in, if you're at Wimbledon, you're a great player. But there's something about the mental game that is the differentiator. Well, yeah. So what's happened is, and I'll draw a little timeline to help kind of punctuate this.

But I think the important part of the story is on the world stage, everyone's physically skilled. That's how that's like how you got through the ranks. It recreation, in recreation sports, you just need to be a little bit bigger, faster, stronger, and you're going to get more exposure and score more points, right? Then that changes in high school, just a little bit, but still that holds true. You know, the bigger, faster kids are going to figure it out. In college, still holds true, but everyone's really pretty good. But in college, you've got some kids that are trying to go pro and some kids that are trying to get a degree, right? And so there's still variants. In the pros, everybody's good, like really good. There is still some variants, but it's really, the variants is really small, it's marginal.

So a competitive advantage is certainly honoring that there's only three things as humans we can train. We can train our craft, we can only three things as humans we can train. We can train our craft, we can train our body, and we can train our mind. And so if we're going to train just our body and our craft, we're leaving a lot up to chance. Because good cognitive psychology will suggest that thoughts proceed action. And so if that's the case, if that is the case, that thoughts come first, well let's have great frickin' thoughts. Whatever that means for you, let's is the case, that thoughts come first. Well, let's have great, fricking thoughts.

Whatever that means for you, let's really honor that those things have consequences, thoughts have consequences. They create neurological and neurochemical exchanges in the brain, and they trigger pattern behavior. So let's get going on it. And it's the competitive mind. That's where sport is fascinating.

It's the competitive mind. And not in a bad way, to like compete to step on somebody's throat or work with the CEO of a fortune 100 company that said Competition to me is to hold my competitor underwater until there's no more bubbles Yeah, that's not the kind of competition. I'm talking about the spirit of competition is like hey, we need each other Let's go Let's go. Let's compete together to figure out how good, how far we can take this thing to the limits

of the human potential, right? That spirit is really rad. So if we're going to leave the mind up to chance, we're leaving the doors wide open for someone else to swoop in with a bit more robust than sturdy mind. So I think sport has been a great amplifier for valuing the need to be present. And to be excellent. In order to be present, in order to be excellent. There you go, in that order.

Now, are you constrained? I imagine you are by confidentiality. Like can you talk about some amazing, well-known client and how mindfulness practice training rather has helped them or can you not do that? So that's why I fired up the Finding Mastery podcast is because of that license, I'm sorry, the agreement with clients that, hey, we're going to go to work for these, for this extended period of time, that that creates such a late, um, an area of safety that we can talk and explore everything and anything. And then because of that, athletes have given me many athletes, have given me permission to

tell the story, to amplify the story, to talk about it, but it's really unbecoming. It does not ever feel good when I'm doing that. So I've, I've fallen like my mentors saying, even if they give you permission, don't go there. And so some athletes have like the ones that you're familiar with like Felix Baumgartner who jumped from 130,000 feet with Red Bull's Stratos Project. He talked about his panic attacks and he talked about cluster phobia and he talked about the work that we did, but I'm not going to talk about it, right? And you might think that well, I'm doing it right now. No, no, no, not getting into the particulars of it. But that's why I fired up the podcast to celebrate Bright Mines and to celebrate those that

are on the razor's edge while most people are looking to avoid the razor's edge. Where can, if you want to learn more about you, learn from you, where can we go to learn more about you? So, there's a couple places. One, if I put like a business hat on for a minute, Coach Carolyn, I fired up a business together to try to capture his intelligence about creating a culture and how to sustain a high performing culture. And then my interest in how to train the minds of people

that want to be great at being a human, or whatever that means. So mindset training and culture culture training and methodologies. And that's called winforever.com. And so you can go there and kind of find out more information about what we're doing there. If you're interested in the path of mastery in those conversations, it's finding mastery.net.

And Coach Carol was actually on there not long ago. You'll be on there soon. And so just conversations with switched on human beings about how they've become and what they do to accelerate their craft. What do you mean by mastery? It's a pursuit, it's a path. It's for me, it's what I started off

with a different idea of what I thought mastery was. And now I'm paying attention to mastery because I ask everyone like what it is to them. I think it's exploring the nuances of a craft. And also at the same time having great insight about how you interface with that craft. Masters of craft, you an ideal with like frame one to frame two to frame three. Like toss the ball, arm comes up, hit the ball. People that are really good, they don't have to think about that anymore. But people that are masterful are playing between

those frames, and they're expanding those frames in such a way that it feels like a whole different universe that they're in. Where you and I, to the novice mind, or the novice eye, we don't even see it. And even if we're good at it, not great, not world class, we don't understand it. So it's the mastery comes with playing in the nuances, I think, and then mastery of the mind is having a really sensitive instrument about what is true and what is now.

So just for you then, you're mid-40s, you have achieved a high level of notoriety as a consequence of your work with these big name athletes and others. Where do you want to go with your meditation practice? Where do you want to go with your career? This is like two people that spend time doing mindfulness work or meditation. I've evdain flowed where times I'm like all in. Like I'm really structured with my work.

And there's times where you're meditation work. Yeah, and then there's times when, it's like, let me see if I could do like, I don't know, 2000 moments a day. And it's like this eating, breathing, walking, everything, you know, and so I don't know where I'm going with it. You know, I'm still gonna spend time in the quiet recesses of single point focus

and contemplative mindfulness. And I'm still gonna do that for sure, but it's like a thousand little, one breath, so thousand little moments to be present feels really robust to me right now. And so what is your formal practice, look like? Yeah, so I've got, okay, I start my morning in a particular way. A lot of people might know about that.

Morning mindset training. So it's one breath. Sheets are still on. One breath, maybe two, right? And if I can, if I can be so bold. And then one thought of gratitude, one intention for the day. And then I just put my feet on the ground. And I just be right where I am.

And then because I don't feet on the ground and I just be right where I am. And then, because I don't wanna start, like, totally chill. And then I wanna get up and I wanna have fire. And I wanna be on. And I wanna put the music on. I wanna run around with my little eight year old and my wife and I just wanna have like, it's just a fun switched on morning.

And then, what I get to do with many people that I spend time with is I get with them six, 12, 20 minutes with them. So it's almost like this kind of hijack opportunity that I have. And then before I go to bed, I've been with your people you're working with, you're teaching them how to meditate and that's your meditation. I'm getting it in as well. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. world. That's cool. But then at night, I spend time and I sit, and that's where I'll do. How long?

That points me like six minutes and somewhere in that range. So you're not doing hours and hours a day? No, I'm not. But you are trying, as it sounds, to infuse it into every moment of the day. I'm trying, I don't know, if I'm up 16 hours a day, then would that be great? That everything is fully aware, fully mindful. So I'm just trying to pay more attention of taking the mountaintop experience

of the six minutes, eight minutes, 20 minutes, and taking that into the city. That's the way that I'm thinking about it right now. And what about professionally, what are your goals? Oh, that's a great question. 1.5 billion people. I want to try to touch and impact 1.5 billion people. And the reason that's an important number is because we all have five friends. And so then we get to 7 billion.

And so that's a ridiculous number. You know, and so there's only a couple ways to amplify into such a ridiculous way. You're closer than I am at it. But being able to help people be more present and to understand that to do so we need to train our minds. And there's lots of ways to do it. Mindfulness certainly is one of them. And so I love to know that somehow I impacted or touched 1.5 billion people to, you know, I'm Italian by identifying with my Italian roots and so rising tide floats all boats. And so I just think that we could get a shift in the way that small relationships work between people when people are more present. So nice place to end it.

Unless you think there's something I should have asked that I didn't any other point that you wanna make that I haven't, I wanna just say thank you for being interested in having this conversation. I've really enjoyed just how authentically honest and eager you are to understand, and it's rare. And so I'm grateful to have felt that, so thank you. All right, there's another edition

of the 10% Happier Podcast. If you like it, I'm gonna hit you up for a favor. Please subscribe to it, review it, and rate it. I wanna also thank the people who produced this podcast, Josh Cohan, Lauren Efron, Sarah Amos, and the head of ABC News Digital, Dan Silver. And hit me up at Twitter, Dan B. Harris. See you next time. Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with 1-3-plus

in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash Survey.