Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 34: Elizabeth Vargas, ABC News Anchor

Episode Date: September 14, 2016

Elizabeth Vargas has been known throughout her 30-year career for her strong reporting around the world, her tough interviews and her steadiness during breaking news coverage. But now for the first time, Vargas reveals that she has also long struggled with alcoholism and anxiety. In her interview with Dan Harris and in her new book, "Between Breaths: A Memoir of Panic and Addiction," Vargas shares that she suffered repeated relapses and says meditation and reaching out to others has helped save her. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

Back in the day, we used to call those mix tapes. Just like you do that with music, you can do it with podcasts. So if you're looking for episodes about anxiety, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes. Or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes, or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist for that. We've even put together a playlist of some of my personal favorite episodes. That was a hard list to make. Check out our playlists at 10%.com slash playlist. That's 10% all one word spelled out..com slash playlist singular.

Let us know what you think. We're always open to tweaking how we do things and maybe there's a playlist we haven't thought of. Hit me up on Twitter or submit a comment through the website. For ABC, this is the 10% half year podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Well, this is a surreal episode for me. You're about to listen to an interview with one of my colleagues, a woman with whom I've worked for many many years

and who had a lot of drama and her life that a lot of us did not know about until recently. Her name is Elizabeth Vargas. She's the anchor of 2020 and she's got a new book called Between Breaths, a memoir of panic and addiction. It is, as you're about to hear, it tells the story of a really harrowing personal struggle on her part. And also, of course, given that this is a 10% happier podcast, it involves toward the back end of the story. Some meditation, which is really turned out to be really useful for Elizabeth. So, here we go, I'll give you Elizabeth. Thanks for coming on. My pleasure. You have quite a story to tell, but unlike most of your interviews, I'm going to start with a bit of

of your interviews, I'm going to start with a bit of odd way in, but let's just start with meditation. I know you did start meditating at some point. That's a big part of my life now. When and how did you start exactly? You know, when I was in rehab, honestly, they did sort of teach you meditation, but it was more mindfulness. And there's a lot that is great about that. And I did that. I'm a big practice or a yoga as well. And there's a part of yoga that's being centered and being aware of your body and aware of your breath

and using it. I do yoga breathing. I've been doing yoga breathing on airplanes for years to calm myself when I start to get anxious. But it was a couple of years ago, and George Stephanopoulos, who had sat next to me on GMA, countless hours of countless days, talking about his practice of TM. And he getting up at this ungodly hour to do it, And that, you know, 20 minutes of TM was worth two hours of sleep, which I thought that's completely bogus. But if it's even remotely maybe a tiny bit true,

I'm going to try it. And I went and spent four days learning how to do it with Bob Ross, David and his foundation. He's been part of the Transadental Meditation Movement for decades. Well, and he just, they just held a huge panel with several hospitals in the area about transadental meditation and recovery, because it's now become just recently a huge tool in recovery. And I love it. I mean, I wish I'm supposed to do it twice a day for 20 minutes. I really, and I even admitted to Bob when I saw him for this panel that I was part of, that I only do it once a day.

And he said that's still great. I mean, once a day is better than nothing. But I can tell Dan, when I've gone, you know, a day or two, and I haven't done it at all. What happened? It really is, for me, it's part of the reflective pause. I mean, a huge part of my story is anxiety. And when you suffer from anxiety the way I did, you react to life and everything in it, like a panicky jack rabbit.

You are off that target and you know, before you can blink, you're off and running to the races, reacting to and spinning out in whatever is frightening you at that moment or making you uncomfortable. And TM has taught me to pause. And I literally, when I start to feel anxious today, what I do now is I will stop and I will think, okay, I'm able to, it's actually, it's like, it's sort of like psychically stepping out of yourself and being able to examine and say, okay, your heart's feeling, you're racing, your breath is feeling a little bit.

What's happening? What's happening right now? Why are you feeling like an exam and what's going on that's making you feel anxious? Is it real? Is you're being anxious going to help it? I started to get panicky just a couple weeks ago when I went to flight back from Toronto to LaGuardia. It was really bumpy and I could feel my whole body, every muscle in my body, clenching in fear. And I thought to myself, okay, what's happening? We're on a bumpy flight and you're trapped

on a small plane and this isn't pleasant. And that's absolutely true. And there's nothing I can do to change it. And me clenching into a ball isn't going to make the plane ride any safer or any more pleasant. So I might as well relax. So that's what TM has been able to do for me. Because a couple of years ago, I would have either had a full

blown panic attack or ordered a glass of shardinate to try and get myself to relax. And I'm able now to do that just you know through I think I didn't meditate at that moment but the meditation that you do every day helps. So your bloodstream right? It's in your DNA to so to speak. I remember Russell Brand saying, because he was part of this panel as well, and he said, praying is when I talk to God, meditating is when God talks to me. And I think about that a lot,

because I'm not getting big billboards from heaven, but I happen to believe that the spiritual component of my life and my recovery is my belief in a higher power, which for me is God. I'm Catholic, I believe in God. I think you get messages from God and guidance from God through your own instincts. You know, if you're quiet enough to hear them, you have to be still enough to listen to what you're gut instinct and your intuition is telling you. And that's the gift of meditation is I'm finally allowing myself time to listen or time to be quiet enough for it to come through because I can look throughout my life and my instincts and my tuition have never

failed me. Ever. I just for many years forgot to listen. But isn't panic an instinct on some level? Panic is instinct, you know, that's the bad wiring. Right, right, right, right. The instinct gonna rye. Yes, you know, and that is the result of, you know, huge fear.

And I'm not going to, you know, listen, anxiety and panic is a huge part of 60% of women who identify as alcoholics suffer from anxiety, 35% of men. Anxiety makes it much more difficult to get sober. You are twice as likely to relapse, if you also suffer from anxiety. The latest medical research shows that we have got to get a hold of anxiety because it's causing people to act out and self-medicate in what turn out to be terribly destructive ways, as it was in my case. But I've had tremendous anxiety and panic attacks since my earliest memories, my earliest memory in my whole life is marinated in terror. Which was? I was too. I had broken my leg. I was in a cache from my hip to my ankle and

I was two years old and I remember this. I was, they were lowering a saw to soften the cast and I was convinced they were going to soften my leg. Is it any two-year-old would? Not any illogical conclusion. And all the doctors and nurses were pinning me down and holding, you know, and just sawing off the cast. So it's just a flash frame memory.

I don't remember actually breaking my leg, but I remember getting the cast on and getting it off because it frightened me. So I think some people come into this world a little more sensitive, a little more fearful, and a little more anxious. And there are not very many tools to be honest. You go to a doctor and you say I'm anxious and they'll say here's some out of that. Here's a prescription for a clonipin. Here's a valium, which treats the symptoms just fine,

but it's also highly addictive, and it doesn't treat the cause. And for me, meditating is treating the cause, is helping get you to the cause, so that you can actually have the capacity to say, okay, what's scaring me? How logical is this? How is my reaction going to help, what can I do to stop this

snowballing negative destructive reaction. So in those 20 minutes for people who aren't familiar with transadental meditation TM, in those 20 minutes, what are you actually doing? You close your eyes, you sit in a comfortable place. I usually, well, I do, I have a meditation timer app on my iPhone, so it sounds like, you know, Tibetan chime. And for 20 minutes, it goes. And you should be a place where the phone's not ringing and the kids aren't running through the room.

And you close your eyes and I was given a mantra, which is a word that I repeat over and over. Sans Grit word. Yes. What you may not do even know the meaning of it. I don't know the meaning of it and I've been told never to tell anybody else what it is. Yes. I think it's secretly because he gave us all the same mantra. But it doesn't want us all to find out.

Whatever. But you repeat the same mantra. And here's the key. The key is you're not supposed to try and banish all thought from your brain, because that's impossible for a human being to do. And that's what caught me caught up in mindful this meditation. I was like, what, I can't stop my thoughts from popping in.

And he said to me, and I will tell myself this, I told myself this this morning when I was meditating, let the thoughts float by, like clouds. You know, you just don't attach to it. Don't, I look at it more as balloons going by. Don't grab the string on the balloon and pull it towards you. That's good. You know, just let the balloon keep going by.

So I'll have the thought and I'll think, okay, I'll remember to do that later. I'm going to let that continue floating by. And that's where that gets into the anxiety component. When you're having a panic attack, you're grabbing the string and you're tugging. You're grabbing a fistful string. Right, and milling and you're not letting go to save your life. So just that exercise, it's like going to the gym,

that exercise of learning to let go of the string and let the thought just float by, I'll address that later. Every day, that's what helps you. When once every, thankfully now it's only once every few weeks or so, I start to feel panicky. Then I'm better able to say, okay, let go of the string. Don't attach to the fear. The fear is not taking over and encompassing my life. I'm going to survive this. It's going to be okay. The interesting thing, if you describe it beautifully, the interesting

thing is I feel like maybe you got not great mindfulness instructions because it's the same thing in both. Yeah. But I feel like I made the difference for you with TM. TM is a great practice, just full stop. But I think what also made the difference was that Bob is a great teacher. I only had this one person there really explaining to you because the big problem everybody has in meditation is they think I can't stop thinking. But you don't have to stop thinking because that's impossible. So if anybody tells you to stop thinking, they're asking you to also defy gravity and all sorts of other things that are just impossible.

Anyway, I say as an aside. In my way, I think it doesn't matter what kind of meditation you do. Anytime you can set aside to just stop, and I'll be honest, you don't have to meditate. Sometimes people get hung up on that I can't meditate it's too eastern it's too something it's too exotic You know what going out and sitting on a park bench and just you know and refusing to take a phone call or listen to music just to

Listen use your five senses. They're all sorts of ways people can center themselves And that's what it's all about. Because unless you're centered and quiet, you can't hear your own intuition. And that's what it comes down to. I think that's really true. Except for I would say what meditation does above and beyond what you're describing. And you really described it, I think, perfectly,

is that it gives you, as you said, like exercise. And it's that daily exercise of being able to watch the thoughts flow by without attaching to them, without identifying with them, without clinging to them, that when the rubber hits the road, when you're in extremists and you're freaking out, it doesn't have to be a panic attack. It can be an urge to eat a cookie,

or it can be the urge to say something inappropriate to somebody or whatever. Or lose your temper. Yes, all of that is where it is extremely valuable. But I'm curious with you, you said you were at this panel where they were talking about the use of TM and recovery. How is meditation specifically useful for you and maybe for others, apparently for others,

in the world of recovery? Well, for me, I mean, the anxiety was very intertwined in the alcoholism. I mean, I used alcohol to self-medicate. And I actually used it responsibly for 20, 25 years. I mean, that's, my story is a little bit unusual in that there are many people I know who, they knew when they had their first drink, they drank until they were blacked out and then they were off to the races. It was a different kind of drinking. Many people believe they were born in alcoholic.

I know this is going to be controversial in the recovery world. As I said in my book, I don't know that I was born in alcoholic. I don't. There's a lot of medical research that supports that sometimes you become an alcoholic later in life. I didn't, you know, I whitenuckled my way through childhood and adolescence in college. I didn't drink a drop of alcohol in college. I didn't start drinking until I was in my 20s in this business. And it was a big part of, you know, life in this business after we put on the local newscast,

we'd all go to the bar and have a few drinks and then go home. And I drink like that, like most everybody else in my life. local newscast, we'd all go to the bar and have a few drinks and then go home. And I drink like that, like most everybody else in my life, until for 25 years. When do you think it started? Looking back now, when do you think it's- Oh, it's very clear. I mean, I had somebody who made me sit down and do a timeline. And when looking back at my timeline, it's like I fell off a cliff in about 2009.

So after your stent on world news? Yes. Just for those who may not remember. So you and I have worked together for a long time. And you were named as co-anchor of world dues tonight back in 2005 with Bob Woodruff. Right. And it was a big deal, huge deal. And what four weeks into it, Bob Woodruff got sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick and was, you know, is today, as we speak, a walking

miracle, but nonetheless, that really kind of, the plan, the whole thing. And you, I think, did it alone for what, a year after that? It was a year from the time, I mean, listen, Peter was, it was in March that Peter announced he had cancer. Peter Jennings died. Peter Jennings died in August of 05. Right. And so during the time that he was, you know, battling this disease, Charlie and I split. Charlie Gibson. Charlie Gibson and I split the filling in duties. And then, and we continue to split the filling in duties right up until December. So from March until December, Charlie and I anchored the show, but sold singly, 50, 50. And then in December, David Weston, you know, had a really bold experiment.

He was then the president of ABC News. Then the president of ABC News and he decided to try having a co-anchoring team, and with an emphasis, because both Bob and I at that point were, you know, and are still reporters, and one of us out in the field a lot to travel the newscast a lot, to be live on the West Coast, and it was a very ambitious plan, and he convinced me of it. I took some convincing. That wasn't a job that I'd ever sort of sat on my goal list. I had never been a reporter for World News. I was always a morning showperson or a magazine showperson. So we were named an early December Bob and I as co-anchors and then at the end of January, I think it was January 28th or 29th, that Bob was hit in a rock. And then I continued at that point, I was two months pregnant.

So I had to tell David I was pregnant. I can't believe everything, David Weston had to do in that with single calendar year, it's astonishing to have Peter diagnosed with cancer, die of cancer, to name Bob and me, have Bob nearly killed. And then I had to say, I'm pregnant, and I'm going to have to go on maternity leave. And even under the, I'll come back after four weeks. But I had a new, I would have a newborn. And anyway, so I did the show by myself until the end of May, at which point Charlie Gibson was named the anchor and took over. Which was, there was controversy over that, a fire call. People did rally to your side and... Yeah, there were some people who, you know, rallied to my side.

And the truth is, I've been, you know, as I've said in the book, was in fact that I was demoted. And that was part of the reason I book, was in fact that I was demoted. And that was part of the reason I think I was really struggling when I came back to work later that year. Because while I grew to understand that it was in fact not only the best thing for the news division to have Charlie be the anchor of this show, it was the best thing for me. I mean, it was deluding myself to think that I could, I had a three year old and a newborn, and I was nursing.

You know, I, yeah, but let me just say you were a great anchor. And I remember, you know, I was then a real rank and file correspondent. I think it was the anchor of the weekend show, which had been your, which is your alma mater. And my, my world was to file a script for the evening news and then come down and get hazed by the senior producers in the anchor.

And I remember you would always pipe up with a really smart question, laid in the process and like, oh yeah, that's what we ought to do. Oh, thank you. So I have real memories of those stress-filled later hours of the day running up to the newscast and having a very positive working relationship with you. So I don't know, whatever stories you're telling yourself now, you were very good at the job.

Oh, thank you. But I can imagine that the process of, as you say, being demoted was very stressful and must have or may have been a contributor to what came later. It was. I think, listen, I think what happened was after I came back to work, first of all, I thought I had postpartum depression. I was convinced I had it. There was something different after I had Sam. This is maybe number one, two.

Two, okay. And I remember going to my doctor and she sent me to an expert in the expert, looked at me and said, you're just anxious. And I was like, anxious, I'm an anxious all my life, you know, but now I can't sleep. Now I can't focus. Now I, I, I would cry. I would just sit and cry. Um, I was sure I had postpartum depression.

Um, I came back to work and, um of the emotion I think set in and hit. Because it was very painful and very humiliating. I took it very personally. Of course. How could you not? Well, because I think the key to, there is a great book called The Four Agreements. And it sets out four things you should agree to do every single day as you set out.

And one is to be impeccable with your word. Number two is not to take things personally. Number three is not to assume. And number four is to always do your best. And number two and three really hit home for me. I always assume the worst, and I take it all incredibly personally.

Like I'm the only person who's ever been demoted. And this is all because I'm terrible. And it fed into all my insecurity. And I took it and it became like I was offended. I wasn't even on the booking list. I couldn't get Eric Abram to return my phone calls So let me just explain to people what that is the booking list is the the list of people who are gonna get the big bookings the next big interview Eric Abram is the guy who is our one of our executives overseas who's gonna get the next big interview

So yes, I can see how it feels personal look I'm a little obviously I'm not the right person to give you objective advice here because I'm in the same world as you But it would feel personal to me let me just say it felt very personal but i and i lost public it was public it was very public so um... and i had to go on oprah and tell her it was my decision and i mean it gave a lot of you know that's how we said to the national organization women which said wait a second why are you booning the the woman to make way for yet another man? And I was like, no, it's my decision.

And that wasn't quite true. It wasn't true. It wasn't true. But that's what I needed to say in order to help the news division and keep my job. I was nobody ever said you'll lose your job But I knew that that was you know, I needed to make this okay So why is it your job to make it okay? I'm not really sure and looking back on it I think I was naive. I was you know, I looking back on it I remember being an utter shock when I was told this news and You know, I still remember the words, the words

that, you know, and I, you have to remember Dan, I'm, you know, we haven't spoken about this, but along with my anxiety, I'm tremendously insecure, like childishly so. Well, look, you're in good company, let's just say. I mean, a lot of us in TV news, especially those in front of the camera, have this insecurity. And by the way, I think even're you're in good company let's just say i mean a lot of us in tv news especially those of in front of the camera yeah half this insecurity by the way i think even if you come in without it you're gonna start getting it because we're in public and people are judging us and we're competing in some of the people it's a it's gonna bring out your insecurity yeah my you know um... my ex has been said to me and i was surprised when he told me this but he said said, you know, I remember it was one of our very first dates. He said, I told him,

you will never meet anybody in your life more insecure than me. And I was like, oh my god, I can't believe I told you that. It was like, so honest. But it's true. And so when David Weston said to me in that meeting, you know, I just remember, I remember I couldn't breathe, which was probably partly due to my anxiety and partly due to the baby and my, you know, pushing up against my diaphragm, which I was had trouble with. And I didn't want to cry, like I really didn't want to burst into tears and cry. And I didn't want to cry like I really didn't want to burst into tears and cry and So I was holding everything in and I just remember him saying to me

If you choose to leave this network, we won't stand in your way Wow, and I was like Choose to leave this network I've been here for 10 years. I'm about to give birth Where am I going to go? Like, I didn't read that as, which is the way I think you probably meant it. If you're angry and want to go to NBC or CBS and, you know, take your ball and leave, we won't stop you even though you're under contract. Eyes took it as, we don't value you. So, please go out the door.

Well, let me just come to your defense on that one because that's how I would take it. Maybe we're both crazy, but that's how I would take it. Well, that's how I took it. We're probably both crazy. And when I told my agent that night, when I got home and you know, called him and told him what happened, and he said, he, my agent number one was shocked. This happened, which is never a good, was a good sign. We pay these guys to have their ears to the ground and not be shocked by demotions as big and huge as this. I mean, it was on the front page of the New York Times.

And, you know, sparked a book and sparked many cover stories, magazine cover. This was huge news. The battle behind the scene for the Anchor Chair at ABC. And didn't battle for it, and I got booted from it, and felt like a passive participant in everything. I didn't have the confidence or the experience to decide to be very calculating as we have to be at certain points. And about, okay, what are my strengths? What do I think, what would make me happy? What do I have the best chance of succeeding at what placed my strengths?

Let's do that instead of course. I was sort of on a raft, on a river, floating along, and then taken by surprise when, you know, some things happen that didn't go my way. Yep. Hey there listeners, while we take a little break here, I want to tell you about another podcast that I think you'll like. It's called How I Built This, where host Guy Razz talks to founders behind some of the world's biggest and most innovative companies

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learn along the way, like confronting big challenges, and how to lead through uncertainty. So if you want to get inspired and learn how to think like an entrepreneur, check out how I built this, wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and add free on the Amazon or Wondery app. So, anyway, so I came back to work and I was feeling pretty, you know, I had the postpartum whatever, anxiety,

according to the doctor, for me, it felt like really a bad postpartum blues. I had a really big shock about the job. I was the Brett I am still to this day. I've always have been the breadwinner of my family. I support my husband or my now ex-husband and both of my children and the nannies that we needed to employ to help because I was working very long hours and you know I'm very lucky to be able to afford help. My working mom story is a story of privilege compared to most other working mom stories.

But it's interesting that in researching alcoholism and women, women are much more likely to use alcohol to self-medicate for stress and anxiety. And I had both in spades at that point. And to top it off a marriage that wasn't in a great spot, you know, I didn't feel supported and I'm sure he could save the same thing and many others. And I started drinking more to self-medicate what I felt was, well, what I know was an enormous amount of stress and an enormous amount of anxiety and in happiness. Instead of addressing the problems maturely, what my go to it always been for 25 years to get home at the end of the day and take the edge off as I told Diane Sawyer who's done

an hour on 2020 on this whole thing. Incredibly powerful. Thank you. And I want to talk because I know how it feels to you know be exposed in this way But but we'll get there So so you're going to drink at the end of the day was you were starting to say was always a glass of shardin I but I said to Diane I said you don't drink alcohol because you like the taste you drink it because you like the way it makes you feel otherwise you'd be drinking iced tea or herbal tea or, you know, a soda or juice. You know, the reason we drink cocktails is because we like the way it makes us feel. And for me part of that equation,

even from the start was to soften the edges of my anxiety and the stress. And as I wrote in my book, everybody looked more interesting and prettier and smarter after a glass of wine, including me. You know, it gave me the confidence that I didn't inherently have. So sadly, I had, you know, for 25 years I drank like everybody else, but at some point when the anxiety got bigger and the stress got bigger and the in happiness was bigger, I started drinking more and that's the difference. Everybody else stops, you know. Not everybody else. No, but people who aren't don't have a algorithm.

Right. People who don't have an issue with drinking, although there are millions and millions of people with an issue with drinking. Yes, there are. That's why I said not everybody else because you're not alone. As you know, this is a widespread issue. This is why I think your book is very important. How how how how hard did it get for you? How bad did it get? The drinking? Yeah. At the very end it was very hard and very dark. I mean you know I think that um there were many times in the last

I would say 18 months of my drinking where just thought, how did I get here? Like, how did I get here? What happened to my life? I mean, I nearly lost everything. I mean, how did you nearly lose everything? Well, I had a terrible incident one day where I blacked out the only time in my life. You know, I'm one of, you know, there are many drinkers who black out all the time. I didn't. I never, you know, I was never the woman who had to be helped out of a party

or who, you know, fell down or passed out or got sick. I, those, my girlfriends were all like, what? You know, we all thought so and so was the person with the drinking problem. You've never had a lampshade on your head, I mean, to use a cliche, but, you know, we all thought someone's though was the person with the drinking problem. You've never had a lampshade on your head, I mean to use a cliche, but you know, those incidents had never happened in all those years. But I did have a blackout in the very end and my blood alcohol level was .4, which is lethal. Wow. Wow.

I mean, .08 is the threshold for DUI. Yeah. So point four. Point four. What was going on? At that point, I remember that I had been drinking a lot. I'm small. I wasn't eating. And at a certain point when you're drinking

that much alcohol, you get to, you wake up in the mornings and the only thing that will make you feel better is more alcohol. Like it's, I call chasing your tail. Anybody who's had an alcohol problem will understand exactly what I'm describing. And it's terrible. I still to this day wake up every morning and feel thankful that I feel great because there were so many years, you know, in the end of mornings when I woke up and I had a headache or I felt shaky

or I felt dehydrated and sick because I've been drinking the night before. At a certain point your body can't do it, you know, I don't know if it's age or just at the passage of time. But we also, I learned from this doctor, I just interviewed actually who's a leading expert on all this, that at a certain point when you're drinking like that, your body, your baseline is different. It changes your body.

So you need a glass or two of wine just to feel normal, just to feel like you feel. It's like a death spiral. It's a total death spiral, a slow, steady, and exorbitable death spiral. So, and that's what I can now, like I used to look back with puzzlement, like why did I do that? And the interesting thing is that now,

you know, having interviewed all these doctors and interviewed all these experts, I understand it now. Like there's an actual biological reason for what was happening, that your baseline was lower, that you were going through alcohol withdrawal, that ramped up the anxiety. The anxiety that I was drinking to quench and quell the anxiety was now like, irretrevably huge, had just blown up into something much, much bigger than it

ever would have been in the worst panic attack. Does that explain why, and this was the case with you, rehab doesn't always work the first time? Listen, rehabs are all different. There are some great rehabs, and there are some terrible rehabs. I went to, you know, a really great rehab and a rehab that was terrible for me, wasn't good for me. I didn't pick out the second one. How many did you go to? Two. And the second one took, though. Not totally, no. So, no. Not finally happened in the end

for me was I just decided I need to stop. I have to stop. I have come to the point where I will lose everything. I will lose my job. I will lose my children. I've lost my husband. I will lose my life. I will lose everything precious and dear to me if I continue doing. When was that moment? That wasn't until two years ago, two and a half years ago. After the second rehab, I came home. And, you know, that was a bad experience for me. I just, all I was focused on doing was getting out of there. It was even my therapist assigned to me at that rehab,

said to me several times. How did you end up here? This is not the right place for you. I remember bursting into tears and saying, I didn't pick it. You picked it. My therapist at the time who was barely new me, and listen, this is a racket. These guys get sent, they get invited by these rehab centers to spend a weekend. And they invite all these therapists from all over the country to come spend a weekend and check out our

plays and they show all the great things, knowing and betting that that therapists will then go back to his or her city of choice or where they live. And when they have a patient who comes in and says, I think I need rehab, they go, go to this place I just saw. It's a business. It's a big business for better or for worse. There are, you know, do the math. There are millions, tens of millions of alcoholics in this country. If 50% of them go to rehab, 20% of them go to rehab, it's a lot of money to be made. So two years ago, so how sturdy do you think the sobriety is and what are you doing to make sure it's ironclad? Today, meaning today now.

Yeah. Well, let me just finish the story. The question you asked about the second rehab. So I was just focused on getting home, which was the wrong, you know, was terrible. And I got home and, you know, found out within a week of getting home that my husband wanted a divorce. And you know, some other revelations followed that were very painful. And it was literally, they tell you in rehab or in recovery any place,

they'll tell you, in the first year of your sobriety, don't make any major life decisions. Don't even start a relationship. Don't start dating anybody. Like, literally, that first year protect your sobriety at all costs because it's very fragile. And, you know, I was buffeted by life events and did relapse.

And it was after that relapse. And I didn't go to rehab. I came back home and worked with fellow alcoholics and learned, you know, to meditate and and when I came home I wasn't the bubble of rehab. I could see right away all the it's very my instinct is that what wasn't as bad to minimize what I did and how bad it is. And when you're in the bubble of rehab where you don't have to face your children's faces or hear your husband's fury or speak to your agent and hear him say, I don't know if ABC is going to take you back.

You know, and they're not going to pay you right now, you know, while you figure out if you can stay sober. And you know, I wasn't protected from the consequences of any of my terrible, terrible selfish, destructive decisions. And you eventually have to reach the point. I mean, I will tell you that for the longest time I didn't want to stop drinking, I just wanted it to work again I wanted to be able to manage my anxiety again

Because I couldn't stand being left sitting with it And you have to reach the point where you realize it won't ever work. I Somehow passed that Point it will never work for me. So I have to find another way to manage the anxiety And I have how strong I way to manage the anxiety. And I have. How strong, I mean how, I said before, how sturdy do you think your sobriety is? How big of it? How much of a daily struggle is it for you now two years out? It's not a struggle per se. I didn't, but I never take it for granted. I mean, I go to meetings nearly every day where I talk with other people who are alcoholics, and I hear things from other people in totally different walks of life

that are incredibly valuable and helpful to me. I meditate, I read, I do readings, like little, you know, whatever it does, for me me managing the anxiety is a huge because it's so tied up and why I drink But you know maybe it's because it's been out of my system for so long But all those physiological changes that were I don't need to Drink anymore or one drink or even a sip of anything to feel like you do when you wake up I feel normal now and feel okay now. So, and it's incredible to me how much less anxiety I have. I didn't realize until I stopped drinking how much the alcohol had been fueling the anxiety,

even long before the drinking turned truly destructive. I mean, all those years when I thought I was managing my anxiety with it, I wasn't. It was slowly, you know, it wasn't, you know, I thought it was making it better, but it wasn't. What did you, what did your drinking do to your relationship with your, your sons? Well, they know everything, obviously. Um, you know, my story, you know everything, obviously. My story, somebody asked me the other day, would I have written this book if my story hadn't

been made public? Because I didn't make my story public. I got leaked to the agency. It was leaked. Not once, but four times. So I felt very outed. And terribly, that first time that happened was when I had to issue a statement from rehab that was terribly distressing and not the thing you should

be doing in rehab is, you know, it was crafting a statement. So my kids have known, you know, more than they probably should have listened. My kids have been through a lot. But they're amazing boys. And the self-confidence that alludes me on so many in so many other areas of my life does not allude me in this. I know I am an amazing mother to them. I am and I work at it.

It's not something I take for granted, and it's something I not only embrace fully, but I still, I mean, I was playing crazy eights with Sam, my youngest the other night, and even two nights ago at the kitchen tape, I remember we're looking at, but I'm in looking at his face and feeling the joy and taking it in, you know, because that's what so many of us don't do in our lives. We're so busy running, we're not taking it in anything, you know, and that's what my life today is. It's a practice of taking it in. And that's everything. That's not just the big exciting moments. It's actually more importantly, just how the sky looks on my walk home or the the air that way it smells as I'm walking through Central Park. You know,

I walked with my kids in Central Park for two hours on Sunday and they never looked up for their phones because they're looking for Pokemon. But, you know, I did. And I loved being with them. I love that they were so excited to show me what they were catching and evolving in their game. And I love taking in the natural beauty around me. And that's what keeps me sober is just, I haven't lost sight. And I hope I never lose sight of how incredibly fortunate I am to have this life, to be alive, to have these boys, to live where I do, to have the job I have. You talk about the anxiety being the sort of root of all this, but you're now putting

yourself in a position where you're about to publish a book where all this is, yes, there were some leaks in the paper, but now you're telling the whole story. Granted, you're telling it on your own terms. But still, I know from experience that it's a, you're going to be having second thoughts and oh my God. Oh, I've already had that. Yeah. So how's that going for you? Is it making you anxious in a way that it's troublesome?

No, I'm terrified, but listen, there were moments in the last few months when I thought, oh my God, can I undo this somehow? Like I actually contemplated, like, can I go to the publisher and just pay them back all the money and, you know, say, never mind? I had those thoughts too. My mother actually begged me. Did she really?

Not to publish the book, yeah. Why? Because she's a mother, she's a good mother. She was, she was just thought I was gonna spout you know it going emitting that i have coke problem and had a panic attack on national television she thought she had the last minute he bgb's i don't blame her yeah but i think it was too late yeah i there i definitely wanted to i had

second thoughts about it and oddly enough it's my family who had the most trepidation also about it. But I think in my case, because they're mentioned in the book, you know. And I think that my sister said to me, it feels weird to have our family, you know, out there. Even though it was mostly in a very, very positive way. I mean, my brother, my sister, my mom and dad

are the people who saved me, who helped me in the very most difficult days. I don't know. I'm a little bit, listen, the hardest part about this, Dan, is the fact that we put ourselves out there and I know how lonely I felt when I was suffering from this and if I can make anybody feel any less lonely, I think that would be a gift and they say in recovery that we're supposed to help other people and you know this was the one of the ways I think

I can do that. I hope it also helps people with family members who are suffering because I want them to know that Don't take it personally. It's not about you if your parents are spouses drinking It's not because they don't love you. It's because they don't love themselves enough It's because they're in so much pain. They'll do anything not to feel it and I know that there are so many family members out there Our families of alcoholics who are tremendously hurt and devastated, rightly so, by the actions of the alcoholic. But it can be somewhat helpful to know, it's not about you. This doesn't mean they don't love you. There's something terrible going on

inside that person. It is a disease. It is a brain disease. And to just simply tell an alcoholic to stop drinking is like telling somebody with depression to be happy. Just smile. Yeah, get over it. Yeah, you can't. It takes more than that. Thank you for doing this. I really appreciate it. You're welcome. Thank you for writing the book. I think it's going to help a lot of people. I hope so. Okay, there's another edition of the 10% happier podcast. If you liked it, please make sure to subscribe, rate us, and if you want to suggest topics we should cover

or guess we should bring in, hit me up on Twitter at Dan B. Harris. I also want to thank Hartley, the people who produced this podcast and really do pretty much all the work. Lauren, Efron, Josh Kohan, Sarah Amos, Andrew Calp, Steve Jones, and the head of ABC News Digital Dance Silver. I'll talk to you next Wednesday. Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and add free on Amazon Music.

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