Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 40: Election Stress Special (Bonus Episode!)

Episode Date: October 16, 2016

In the midst of what some are calling the ugliest election ever, millions of Americans say they're feeling more stressed, anxious and just plain exhausted from it. One therapist even coined a term for this: "election stress disorder." As a remedy, many doctors are recommending meditation. On a special edition of the "10% Happier" podcast, we present a one-of-a-kind roundtable discussion led by our host Dan Harris about best practices for handling stress during the election. Dan is joined in-studio by two meditation teachers, Sharon Salzberg and JoAnna Harper, as well as David Gelles, an author and New York Times business reporter who covers the meditation scene. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

Back in the day, we used to call those mix tapes. Just like you do that with music, you can do it with podcasts. So if you're looking for episodes about anxiety, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes. Or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes, or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist for that. We've even put together a playlist of some of my personal favorite episodes. That was a hard list to make. Check out our playlists at 10%.com slash playlist. That's 10% all one word spelled out. dot com slash playlist singular.

Let us know what you think. We're always open to tweaking how we do things and maybe there's a playlist we haven't thought of. Hit me up on Twitter or submit a comment through the website. Before we start, if this is your first time listening to the 10% happier podcast, A, welcome. And B, if you like the show, do me a favor. Take a second and subscribe, rate the podcast,

and if you really want to hook me up, tell some friends about how they too can find us. Now here's the show. From ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast, I'm Dan Harris. All right, so we're going timely and topical on this episode. This is like an emergency edition of the podcast. We're in the midst of one of the ugliest elections anybody can remember and people are freaking out.

One shrink has even coined a term for this election stress disorder. Here are some numbers from my crack research team. Sixty percent of Americans say they're exhausted by the name calling. Twenty-five percent of American workers say they feel less productive and more stressed at their jobs because of political discussions in the workplace. 50% of Americans say the prospect of a Clinton presidency makes them anxious. 70% say so for Trump. 7% of Americans say they've ended friendships over this election. Doctors and mental health workers around the country are reporting that their patients are exhibiting symptoms such as anxiety, powerlessness, anger,

aggressive driving, increased tensions within marriages, difficulty sleeping, higher blood pressure, heart palpitations, stomach problems, and I love this one, compulsive cleaning, not a problem I've had. As a remedy, many doctors are actually publicly recommending and privately, meditation. So we've recruited three meditation teachers to record special nonpartisan guided meditation

teachers for people who are stressed out by the election. And we're posting them for free on the 10% happier app. You can download the app in the Apple App Store and the meditations will be right there for you to use for free. And if you don't have an Apple device, you can get the meditations at 10%happier.com. And on this podcast today, we have two of the teachers who have recorded those meditations here to discuss the issue along with a reporter

from the New York Times who covers the meditation scene. They are Sharon Salzburg, co-founder of the Insight Meditation Society, and author of such amazing books as Real Happiness and Real Happiness at Work. Hello. Hello. Joanna Harper, guiding teacher at a meditation organization called against the stream.

She also works with at risk youth. Hi. Hi. I just want everybody to hear their voices just so they can tell them apart as we as we go through this. And David Gellis, who's a New York Times reporter, just started a mindfulness column, which is called meditation for real life. All right. And I like that. He's a longtime meditator, author of Mindful Work, which is about how businesses are adopting mindfulness. And I just should say for the record, there's another teacher, the amazing Jeff Warren, who's also recorded some meditations for us

that will be up on the 10% happier app. But he's up in Canada. Jeff is amazing, and we're actually gonna have him on for a full show at some point. All right, guys, after that long production, let's get down to it. Sharon, we're gonna start with you. How do you think meditation can help?

What's the name of the disorder? Election stress disorder. Okay. I don't think it's not in the like physician's desk reference or anything at this point. Not official, but nonetheless, people are upset. What is, do you think meditation, I assume the answer is yes, but how can meditation help? I think meditation can help in a couple of different ways.

One is, I think when we look at some really painful feelings, like anxiety and fear, and we have an ability to understand them more. So for me, I would say that the worst part of my own fear when I get lost in it is a certain sense of helplessness. That's the hardest part. And I know that from just sitting and being with fear and coming to understand it more, that something I need to do is find the one small thing I can do, not obsessive cleaning of us far.

But maybe it's urging other people to vote, or it's something about engagement of whatever kind, or just reflection on what's really important to me, something like that. And I can remember to breathe, because in that kind of hyperstate of doom, anticipating the worst, remembering that actually I am existing right here now, that none of that has happened, it's all conjecture, and that if I can breathe, I can come back to

this moment. Joanna, how do you think it can help? Yeah, I'm going to agree with that. I was really reflecting on what happened when Y2K happened and how terrified people got by something that hadn't happened yet and how we planned and plotted and it was really going to be the end of the world, you know, when that came around. So just really watching how catastrophizing and how a timeline arises when we get into any strong emotions, it's usually futuring in some sort of way towards a reality that

hasn't happened yet. So paying attention to what you know, who you know, what's happening now, and Breath is a great way to do it, and engaging in a reality now that could be helpful versus just getting into the probable and possible dystopic future that we start to think is really going to happen. It's my favorite. It's fantasy. Yes. It's my favorite Buddhist term. I should have learned it from you, Sharon, proponsha, which means the imperialistic tendency

of mind is amazing. So, we have a data point in the present moment. So maybe it's the latest poll numbers, and we just make, we colonize the future with our concerns, and we have some factual basis for it, but minimal factual basis for it, and many of these cases, that kind of the movie making that we're doing,

this horror movie making that we're doing is just not very useful, and just driving us crazy. So, David, let me ask you just as a starter question. I know you're not a meditation teacher, but you've been doing it for a while. So, does meditation help you when you get anxious about this election? Yes, and one of the specific ways is that the direction season has been characterized by so much divisiveness. And there's so much sense of otherness between the two parties

or between otherness between myself and people who don't seem to agree with me. And one of the things that meditation I've found can be very helpful with is by reestablishing the sense of commonality. And meta-meditation-loving kindness, I mean, we have the expert here at the table, is one really amazing way of just reminding

ourselves that in fact we are all going through many of these same emotions together, which starts to reestablish this common baseline of shared humanity, which I think is very easy to lose sight of. And there's a wonderful phrase that comes up in teachings just like me. And when I have found myself on the opposing side of an argument or the table with someone who I might disagree with or even on social media seeing them, one of the things I've been trying to do is remind myself, you know, just like me, these people have strong views. They may be wrong, but just like me, they're going through this too. And that's helped at least start to reestablish some humanity and what can otherwise become

this highly polarized, almost purely conceptual, you know, form of tension. I mean, I don't even have the words to articulate the way in which my body has experienced some of the anxiety. But in that very specific way of meditation has been helping me lately. So you were saying before we started recording that you did not withstanding decades of meditation practice, you actually unfriended somebody because of their political views. Yeah, they were posting relentlessly on the other side of the aisle, and it was provoking real strong negative emotions in me.

was provoking real strong negative emotions in me. Even because the other training you have for decades is a reporter. Nonpartisan fair reporting and yet on your own social media feed, you couldn't abide it. I think one of the reasons it was so hard is because it was someone who I believed or had convinced myself was, you know, my, my peer, not only in terms of, you know, someone I might hang out with, but also somehow in, in an orientation and political orientation. and the kind of shock and the relentless promotion of their views, which I strongly disagree with, was it rattled me, it rattled me. And I'm not saying that this go full thing to do was to unfriend them.

Maybe I should have just muted them until after the election. But for whatever reason, that's where I went with it. So I don't know which social network you were using, but does this person know that you unfriended them? I hope not. Okay. You're not you're not looking for some permanent schism here, or maybe you are. So it will be interesting the next time I see this person in person, whether or not we need to have a conversation and and if so, how I can do that in a way that is respectful. I think it's gonna be difficult.

Yeah, yeah. I can do that in a way that is respectful. I think it's gonna be difficult. Yeah, yeah. Back to the teachers now. Karen can just fail to test. No, no, no, no. You proved that even... I hope I really didn't make you feel that way because I always just like to point out that you can do a lot of meditation and still be pretty deeply flawed hence my whole 10% thesis. Thank you, Tim. You're welcome. Even if we disagree politically, which we might, I still love you. Sharon, you have made a career of really promoting a specific kind of meditation called compassion, or meta meditation, but also known as loving kindness,

sometimes called compassion meditation. There's some gradations in there. I don't wanna get too much in the weeds, but this is a kind of meditation where you really do try to generate feelings of warmth for yourself, for other people in your life who have been benefactors or close friends, and then also for difficult people, and then of course for everybody.

So in a systematic way, you kind of envision these beings and send them a good will. Could this be useful in the current electoral climate? Oh, it's fantastic. I want to go back to David, because I don't think you failed. You know, swinging with loving kindness for oneself. I don't think you failed. You know, spring of loving kind is for oneself. I don't think you failed at all. I mean, there's, I think it would be fascinating when you see this person again because there are these moments when we are more, we're kind of lost in a kind of ideological or particular kind of fixation about somebody. And then in these moments where we register like human being,

they want to be happy just as I do. They're vulnerable to change, to loss, to life like falling apart, just like I am. And in just these moments, it doesn't mean that you agree or that you let go of what you feel is right or wrong, or sense a principle, but there's a real caring that emerges and I would not be surprised at all if in that moment of actually coming together should you come together again physically that there is that so loving kindness is not an easy

thing to understand because I think we do tend to confuse it with giving in and and saying it doesn't matter you know what I believe what I hold really dear, because it's not just positionality. These are sometimes these views are very deeply held because of things we've witnessed, suffering we've seen or ways we feel we or our neighbors or people are unheard. They come from a very deep place sometimes, it's not just having a view. And to recognize that in somebody, and it's something that's very important.

And to understand it doesn't mean you like somebody, and it doesn't mean that you are going to invite them to move in or that you're going to say, yeah, I'm doing everything exactly your way or anything like that. It's not a weakness. It's a tremendous power to have the sense of caring for others and yourself.

So you're going to literally go from this radio studio in which we are recording this podcast to another studio where you're going to record the guided meditations for the app. And I don't want to put too much pressure on you, because you may not even know what you're going to do. But I just be curious because we spoke in general terms about the fact that meditation

could be useful for people who are freaking out about the election. What would the concrete advice be that you would give to somebody who right now needs an intervention? Well, the first thing I'm going to do is about popuncha. It's about proliferation. Well, that imperialistic tendency of mine is to see that we have a certain situation right now, and we do catastrophize, and we've cascaded, and to see if we can reel it back to what,

this is what's actually happening right now. And then for me, going back to what I said before, understanding the nature of the feelings, it's like, look deeper. It's not just what's happening right in the moment on the surface, but look deeper into what's going on. Like, as I've looked more deeply into my own fear and I've seen that kernel of helplessness,

I come to understand that that's the bittersport in a way that's what I have to address. Because the rest is just a feeling, it's something that's arising. And that if I look at the rage, you know, in the sense of division and anger that comes up, and I look more deeply into that, then I often see a kind of sense that I'm not seen. You know, I've somehow been obliterated or my view doesn't count, you know, and so I get more hyped up around that. And I really put that on my meditation practice

that training just looked deeper, look into your experience. I just find that for me, you know, I've gone through various stages of stress over the election, but for me it's really about just how low the whole we've gone and how angry people are and how divided we are. It's less for me about individual candidates right now than it is about the overall scene. I don't know if that resonates with you at all. Yeah, it resonates. And what would you tell me to do about it? Oh, I think it's a combination of being able to sit

with your feelings, so that you're not driven to something like obsessive cleaning. Well, I think I'd probably be driven to curling up in a ball and trying to pretend it's not there. Yeah, well that that's another Problem, you know, it's like the the movement into apathy or denial Is not very healthy either. So that's why we talk about mindfulness the way we do We say it avoids two extremes one is being swept up in a feeling so that you're defined by it and the other Extremes denial and dissociation and rejection and so being able to be there and connect to the feeling,

and I would say again, it's not enough to lament in our time. Like, what we've come to, nobody knows civics anymore. Look at the tone of dialogue. It's not enough. I mean, if we can hang in there with the really uncomfortable feelings Very often there's a path to one small action we can take and And another and another and then There's there's a much greater sense of fulfillment from that then from you probably don't do this

But from writing another furious tweet, you know, yeah, I mean I'm a journalist So I don't really I don't really get involved in the, you know, covering the campaigns, I'm really getting involved in, you know, picking aside. But I do, as an American, have feelings about the sort of nature of the, the venomous nature of the dialogue and how much anger in hatred is out there. All right. So Joanna, you have just come from the recording studio where you recorded some meditations for the app about, you know, how to deal with what's it called, the election stress disorder.

What are you advising people? Yeah, I mean, what I spoke about there were really identifying our core values, you know, because there's this way that we can get swept up in sides and identities that really actually might be far from where we are and what we stand for and what we actually want. So through personal practice, really connecting to who am I? What do I want? What do I want to support and be active in? So that's one of the things I spoke about night and I stand behind that because it might mean

that we're not on either side, right? So it might mean this election is gonna happen, somebody's gonna win, and then what? What's the possibility that comes beyond this one date, this one name? And I think there's a lot of possibility in there. I think that there's a lot, there's a lot we can do. And coming in touch with our core values is really important there.

And then another piece that I spoke about was this idea of forgiveness. And sort of like David was talking about these are other human beings. We all suffer. We all want to be happy. We all We all want to be happy. We all would like to move forward in a country that works for us. And how can we not carry that burden around in a way that we don't really need to in our hearts? I mean, hatred running the show, as we've seen, is not the right way to go. And it's not what I'm interested in. So working on a way not to have to condone or to accept or agree with,

but what's it like not to have to completely separate and disconnect from, you know, possibly half of the other people that live in this country? But also, you know, race and religion have become big parts of this campaign. And so I would imagine I haven't seen any data on it, and I don't know what you're hearing race and religion have become big parts of this campaign. And so I would imagine I haven't seen any data on it, and I don't know what you're hearing

from folks you teach meditation to. And I guess I would pose that to you, Sharon, because you teach to a pretty diverse community, but I would have met, I could see where it would be, and in some of the research that I've done for this, anecdotally here, that people in minority communities are reporting very high levels of stress over this election. Yeah, and I think it points to what you were talking about earlier, is it's not necessarily about issues that are being pointed to, although some of it is immigrant rights and things like that. But what it is pointing to is watching the ugliness arise to the top. We are now seeing people are feeling safer to come out and explore

some really dangerous territory that was kind of in the dark before. So as far as I know with people of color, we're talking about race and gender and sexual orientation and all kinds of people are feeling very unsafe because they're seeing the hatred that exists that was behind closed doors and it isn't anymore. David, you are actually going to, one of the reasons we had you on the podcast is, well, you're my friend, that's part of it, but also because you're actually doing some reporting on this issue. And I don't know if you started your reporting or what you're finding, can you just share your early thoughts on this? Sure, well, the shameless plug, the new column meditation for real life,

is a weekly column that tries to very succinctly talk about how someone can take a mindful approach to really specific situations. So, so far some of them have been a little whimsical, having your morning cup of coffee, sitting at a stoplight. But being on the subway, using Facebook. Exactly. Well, I'm going to amplify your shameless plug because it's awesome. I just think it's awesome that the New York Times is doing this.

And in really, it's because of you. And so kudos to you and to the times we're doing it. Thank you. And if I could digress just a little further, it's part of this much more robust suite of meditation and mindfulness offerings that the Times is now starting to support. It launched a few months ago with a guide how to meditate in which Sharon was a great contributor and we offer for free very step-by-step instructions on how to start basic mindfulness meditation. It includes audio teachings by Sharon and another teacher Tara Brock.

Now we have the weekly column meditation for real life. And then this past weekend, we launched virtual reality meditation. Oh yeah, there's a really good one. The NYT VR app with another spirit rock teacher, Mark Coleman, who's a real expert in nature meditation. So we transport you to some of these amazing places. So if the election is stressing you out,

strap on your Samsung, Oculus, Rift, goggles, or your Google Cardboard and transport yourself to the beautiful ocean and listen to some mindfulness meditation there. But one of the things we're going to have to address in the coming weeks is how to be mindful with the election, how to be mindful in the voting booth. So indeed, Joanna and I have started emailing back and forth about what a mindful approach to voting might be. And rather than me try to paraphrase, I'll kick it back to Joanna for some instructions of how to actually bring a mindful attitude to the voting booth. And this really weighty decision that many people, hopefully everyone in this country, is is gonna have to make.

And it's a pivotal decision, and I think it brings up lots of serious issues about one's own personal responsibility, about civic engagement, and for those who try to think through a Buddhist framework some time, I mean, this is Dharma in action, it's Bodhi Chites, how do we actually practice in the world? And at this moment moment that means voting.

So, so, so, John, how do you, how do you vote? Yeah. And how you do that mindfully and from this sort of meditative slash Buddhist perspective. I guess it comes down to being informed, right? Because there's something, maybe there's something that we can agree with, but it's also not only about the president, there's other things that we're voting for,

there's other values that we're voting for. And I'm all about grassroots, I'm all about making it happening in our community, making it happen where we can. And sometimes, I mean, when we look at the mindfulness practice, a lot of times I like to put things in categories of what can I control and what can I mean, when we look at the mindfulness practice, a lot of times I like to put things in categories of what can I control and what can't I control, sort of if we're looking at, you know, maybe the first noble truth of suffering,

it's old age sickness and death as a given. And then we look at the idea of, well, what is in my jurisdiction? And there are some places where I've come to the understanding and I help some of my students understand that where we, there are places we can't do anything and there are places we really can. And so putting energy into those places seems really important to me.

You know, I, the Buddhist spend a lot of time talking about impermanence. But this may be a case where impermanence is your friend because no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, remember, eight is going to come and go. It's going to come and go. Absolutely. And then what? Exactly. It's not, it's not the end. We don't know how this is going to affect us. And I'm actually honestly happy to see some of the true identities

and colors in our country. Because now I know where to go. And I know where not to go. And I know what needs to be worked on. What's your view on what we're discussing before about impermanence? I thought you were going to say that the whole next administration will come and go. Well that's true too, right? Not just the days, I kind of got it, the ninth, you know, I don't have to watch those things

anymore. I do think their, Joanna and I were doing a, we're taping a, taping an amazing course for the 10% happier app yesterday on something not related to the election. But one of the people we had a little audience there, and one of the people in the audience, was saying that he's found himself to be sort of addicted to his, you know, hourly dose of outrage by checking his Twitter feed for the latest thing in the election. How would your advice be about sort of mindful consumption of election-related information? Oh, I think you need to self-monitor, I mean, you know, and understand that, like, blowing

out and just being overwhelmed is not going to help anybody. And it is addictive. And so it's kind of a discipline of, like, saying, well, I'm only going to help anybody and it is addictive and so it's kind of a discipline of like saying, well I'm only going to do it this much or whatever. However, when I do it and I know it's going to be overwhelming, then I am then going to take five minutes and just breathe or something. But I think it's very interesting that prospect of the ninth,, what if your candidate loses and you're facing an administration that you really didn't want to see happen, and then impermanence really is your friend. But it's also something about rising up out of like hope in fear and hope in fear and

hope in fear and attachment, needing it to be a certain way in a version, an attachment, an attachment, an attachment, and having a sense of your values and the things you can do. And it doesn't always have to be in a kind of vast national way. It might be your neighbor, you know, it might have something to do with how you and you take care of your neighbor who's going downhill or something. And whatever it could be that we forget how we talk to people day-to-day, also figures, not just in these sort of hyper-manic intents, you know, overwhelming times.

And that would be a good reminder for the ninth, you know? One of the many things I like about what you about the foregoing is that you're really framing this election, which a lot of us are viewing through a kind of negative and difficult lens as a great opportunity to practice. There's just so much grist for this particular mill. I like that. Yeah, well, especially if you are devoted to something like loving kindness practice, you're kind of up against it.

You know, it's like, may almost all beings be happy. Let's see, you're the 50, I'd immediately like to leave out, you know. Hey there listeners, while we take a little break here, I want to tell you about another podcast that I think you'll like. It's called How I Built This, where host Guy Razz talks to founders behind some of the world's biggest and most innovative companies, to learn how they built them from the ground up. Guy has sat down with hundreds of founders behind well-known companies like Headspace,

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You can listen early and add free on the Amazon or Wondery app. And one of the reasons I think this is so charged is because we're not rooting for our favorite baseball team here. I was reflecting on my own unfriending of my friend and realized I was trying to just think about why did I really do that. And one of the things as I sat here is I realized I am of the opinion that he is promoting and supporting a candidate and by extension a policy and a platform that increases human suffering. And that's why it's so tough for me to bear that.

And I suspect he probably feels the same way on the other side of the aisle. And when we get to that level of, I actually believe that what you're doing is going to have significant, harmful impacts for all sorts of people and issues, and it's going to really extend the realm of human suffering on this planet. That's not so easy just to meditate away. Yeah. Well, nobody's talking about meditating it away here. We're just talking about meditating, it's using meditation as a way not to let it,

yourself get so carried away. Of course, but I guess I'm trying to make the point. It's a more intense sort of personal suffering than being on a crowded subway car. Yes, yes. Yeah, no, I hear you. I do. Joanna, on the issue of David's unfriending, one of your specialties is Buddhist ethics, which sounds a little dry actually, but is incredibly interesting. Not at all.

No, not at all. It's basically about how do you use mindfulness in a way that impacts your behavior in the world and treatment of others. And one of the precepts or guidelines in that's talked about in Buddhist ethics is something called right speech. And speech is a really tough area to apply mindfulness because we're constantly just popping off in relationship to the last thing the last person said or we're not listening

and just planning our next brilliant retort or interrupting people etc etc. So I guess this is a two level question which is you know in in talking about these issues what if I'm in a marriage where my spouse has an opposing view how do you talk about this reasonably and then how do you talk about it on social media when the filters are all gone? And people, you can't actually see the face of the person you're talking to. Yeah.

I mean, I really like to consider myself a diverse person and an open-minded person. And it's easy for someone to say that when everybody agrees with them, right? Like, I'm super diverse. I love everybody, especially those that are on my side. And so what I think, you know, for me in terms of listening and being in a real relationship with somebody or the world is a certain level of curiosity where we're actually having

to deeply listen. Because what I'm finding is I actually want to know what's going on for people who actually aren't like-minded to me. I'm curious. I want to hear what they have to say. And I want to hear it in a very and as open-hearted way as I possibly can, open-minded, whatever we want to call it. And I find that by me connecting to my personal mindfulness, my core values, one, the strength of my practice is good enough where I'm not shaken that easily. So I, one of the things that we begin to do as we cultivate a practice is we cultivate a lot of personal trust.

We can trust ourselves to not lose it, right? Like I can trust myself that I can hold. I can trust myself that I can hold. Okay, so we cultivate, we grow, right? And one of the things I have learned is I have a level of trust. Now, self-trust. And what that allows me to do is to actually deeply be with somebody else, even when they don't agree with me, even when they're totally different. Now, what happens in the eyes, it's been really hard for me to watch my black brothers get assassinated, you know, in the last year. It's difficult.

It doesn't make it easy. I have a hard time going, oh yeah, I understand that happening. Do I understand the culture and the social structure and the conditioning and all of those things that got us to this place? Yeah, that's how I can use my awareness. That's how I can widen my view. Yeah, I hear all that and thank you for all that. For those of us who don't have the trust

that you described and haven't done the breadth and depth of practice that you have, well, any blocking and tackling basic advice for how to have a conversation about this stuff without going off the rails, both IRL as the kids say and on the internet. Yeah, I mean, I have a lot of friends right now who are just going off a Facebook.

They're just not on it right now. They're not on Twitter because they're finding it's not helpful. All it is is agitation. It's not informing them. It's not making them wiser, it's not making them. If we just sit back and are only getting irritated and we're calling ourselves activists because we're reposting something that's inflammatory,

my recommendation is yeah, be active and actually do something. Like move into the realm of where you can actually be helpful instead of just getting irritated because it doesn't actually help. So that would be one piece of advice is maybe if you know that right now it's not a good time for you to be on social media, then maybe not. And stay out of conversations with people that you really love and care about that might not be useful right now. And what are the basics of right speech? Can you just walk us through, because you have a great stick on this. It's not a stack of stuff. Right, so is it true?

So these are the filters through which you... These are some core... Yeah, so rights, right speech would be, is it true? Is it useful? Is it timely? Is it kind? And is it gossip or slander? So really paying attention to why and when it's necessary to talk. And the only way we can pay attention is not through our reaction and not the habitual stimulus.

We have to pay attention through sort of the filter and sensor of which is our mindfulness. So, this is a really hard thing to do. So, how do we even begin? We begin by putting time in on the cushion, right? Because what we're doing is we're conditioning our mind to see clearly when something difficult arises or when something fantastic arises. And so it's, if we're conditioning, just like we're conditioning or learning anything as sport, an instrument, a new language, whatever it is that we want to learn how to do for

the first time, we have to really practice, we do it and we do it and we do it until it becomes some kind of second nature or it starts to get easier over time. So patience is a big part of this. You know, it's a time sport. We really need to put an effort into really re-conditioning, deconditioning, maybe old and not so helpful, how about patterns? I'm still working on it. Sharon, what would you say? Because I think this is a real issue in many people's lives right now.

How could you use perhaps even just a nascent meditation practice for those of us who are just doing five minutes a day, maybe, to help us in conversations one-on-one with some of you who disagrees with us, maybe even our spouse or partner, or on the internet when we're just typing away, and again, as I keep saying, the filters are often gone because you don't have to deal with the immediate emotional ramifications of seeing somebody else's face. Mm-hmm. I think those are actually, you know,

to pick up on what Joanna was saying, I think those are two different scenarios. Because in the internet, you can say, the cost is too high, you know, like look what's happening in my body, look at the level of agitation I met. I've been slapped, you know, like, I haven't gotten my work done, it's like, I have to finish the book, you know, like I haven't gotten my work done.

It's like I have to finish the book, you know, whatever. She's referring to the fact that she's had a book she's been trying to finish for a while. But you just finished. I did. Well, they tell me I need two paragraphs to end it. All right. Nice. I got to get off the internet for God's sake. You know, so it's like, yeah, it is nice. Thank you. So, you know, there's a level of choice there

that comes from self-awareness. I am trashed. This may not be worth it. And meaningful relationships where we need to continue the relationship. It's something else. And I think it has to do with mindfulness of one's motivation, what do I really want?

Like what would be the outcome that I could reasonably seek out of this conversation right now? Do I want to vanquish them? Do I want to be seen as right? Do I want a resolution? Do I want peace, like mutual respect? And it's always useful to see one's motivation, which you can. It doesn't take endless, endless, endless practice to just kind of flip your awareness to that,

because that will make a big difference. And then awareness of your body, mindfulness of the body, is a great set of clues, because you can feel the agitation arising, not after you've responded or you've, you know, just yelled out some answer, but when it's beginning to emerge, you can feel it and you can recognize this is like a danger zone. You know, this is a place that's not that healthy and from which to continue this conversation. I often describe it as like an inner meteorologist. Yeah, yeah. Because you can be in the middle of a conversation

and then you notice, oh, there's a hurricane, it's about to make a landfall here. That's right, that's right. And maybe I should say something polite and extricate myself or take a pause or whatever. David, when we were emailing in advance of this, one of the things you talked about, that was really interesting is that,

there's a tension in Buddhist circles between a sort of detachment and engagement. Can you just hold forth a little bit on that? Well, it's just what I was thinking about right now, and something Joanna said prompted me to recognize that maybe in those moments when I'm encountering either someone I'm close to or a stranger who I'm sensing that real disagreement with. The appropriate course of action isn't necessarily to try to vanquish them. It's perhaps in this situation not even to necessarily engage. If Joanna instructed us to take action, yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean trying to convince someone that they're wrong. There are lots of other ways to take action.

In the context of an election cycle, it could be registering people to vote. It could be promoting issues you care about, be it women's rights or climate change or whatever it might be solely on the basis of the importance of that issue. And in this context, perhaps, it's a ability if the appropriate policies are pursued to reduce suffering rather than person rising it and saying it's this candidate or the other candidate, which I think is one of the things that's made this all so personal and so charged is we've conflated all these issues into individuals and And in this case, too, you know, incredibly charged and highly controversial individuals, which make it very difficult to actually see the issues for

what they are, if you will. The two least popular presidential candidates in the history of polling. Indeed. And so maybe taking action means yes, engaging with the electoral process, but not necessarily on behalf of the candidates themselves. What about the, sorry, go ahead. I just want to say the other thing that I was realizing, the other way I've been using meditation over the last several weeks in particular, is specifically to just stop thinking about the election.

I mean, like if you're actually practicing, you're not on Twitter. And so I found myself, I mean, just in're actually practicing, you're not on Twitter. And so I found myself, I mean, just in a, in a, almost self-medicating kind of way, I don't know, this is not exactly how you're supposed to meditate, but it feels good to just take time and be mindful walking in nature, rather than like bashing my head against the screen,

reading the latest outrage on Twitter. And, and that has actually been a useful way for me to just cultivate my own well-being, is just the beauty and simplicity of basic practice in its own right, on its own, not even in relation to the erection cycle, has been very restorative. Let me just go back to the thing you were talking about in our email, which is in Buddhist

circles, historically, there's been this tension between, we now have this movement of engaged Buddhism, which is really interesting, and I wouldn't claim to know much about it, but there are other Buddhists who like live in a cave and aren't really engaged with the world. What are your thoughts on that dynamic? I think you're right to say that certainly in this age, and I'm no expert either, there's, I think, the appropriate recognition

that we live in complex times, and those of us, certainly with the position to influence friends or the media, have a responsibility. And again, I always just come back to the framework of are we doing what we can to reduce suffering when we have the opportunity to? And by engaging, that's the way we can start

to essentially put our fingers on the scale, if you will. Whereas, I mean, I remember one of my first teachers, I was 20 at the time, I was in India and I was very swept up and kind of intoxicated by the romance of the monastic culture. And I was like, maybe I should stay. Maybe this is a good idea. And he said, you weren't born in India. Like, your karma is not to be a monk. Your karma is to go back and do your thing in the United States. Cover M&A for the New York Times.

Yeah, thank you very much. So I think for those of us here who are, you know, the reyady in the world, but do also try to engage with this perspective. Yeah, there is an obligation to find the ways in which we can do our part to participate in civil society, civic society. But again, to go back to what I was saying earlier, maybe a way I haven't thought through this terribly well, but maybe a more skillful way in a high-recharge direction like this is to focus on issues rather than personalities. You have a one-year-old and a two-and-a-half-year-old.

Neither of whom I would guess is super engaged in the selection. Norris Mai, one-and-a-half-year-old, who's mostly engaged with his daddy finger videos on YouTube. You, however, have Joanna. You have a 17 and 19 year old, and so I just wonder what your thoughts are for parents, and how to deal with all this. Your kids are a little older, you don't have to really monitor their media,

and you can't monitor their media conception, but generally speaking, as a parent, what are your thoughts about how to handle children in this environment? Yeah. I think a lot of communication, a lot of discussion, a lot of surrounding and supporting them with people that they can count on,

and that we're not only seeing the devastation or one side, again, getting them involved, having them be a part of a positive movement. And even if that just means, you know, doing something locally. So yeah, really bolstering, if I can point out bolstering sort of the wholesome, the skillful, the positive, the ways and things that we can do versus pointing to the negative and hopeless. Because it's out there. I mean, we can find it anywhere in any way that we want to.

And just not making that the primary thing that's happening. Well said. What are you doing about your own media consumption and social media consumption, Joanna? I'm not big on. I haven't really been big on it. I'm not an Instagram or Twitter, or any of those.

Facebook is my big thing, and it's pretty irregular, so. Yeah, I mean, that's mostly it. I'm just not on it that much. I'm not that interested, you know, I was a gossiper when I was a kid, and it just feels like a bigger way to gossip and a bigger way to spread lies and a bigger way to be disillusioned.

And is it true? Like, is it even true what we're hearing? So yeah, I like to try to stick to factual information if possible. And yeah, I'm kind of not on it that much. ABC News is a great place for factual information. So it was New York Times. I'll confess here, I had the luxury, the privilege, thanks to the New York Times,

of taking paternity leave for five weeks, late in the summer, and I really disconnected. I deleted all social media apps from my phone, I checked email very irregularly, and I basically hung out in nature with my kids, and it was a profound and beautiful experience. And since I have returned, especially in the last month, I have become completely addicted to erection news in a really unhealthy way, which is why I was saying, I mean, I'm having to be even more dedicated to practice, simply because it's a way for me to turn it off.

And it's a powerful relationship with the news in a way that I haven't done a long time. And I'm working on it, but I don't have an easy answer. Yeah, I'm addicted to it too. I mean, it's my job. A, but B, even when I'm not working, I'm just constantly looking at my email feed because we just at ABC within the building, we're just constantly emailing,

we have reporters in the field, they were constantly gathering information. So I'm always looking at that, looking at my favorite websites, including ABC News and The New York Times. And yeah, but I've found that meditation actually is quite useful. If I, you know, that internal meteorologist that I mentioned before that I feel myself getting

renovated, and sometimes I eat a half a bag of popcorn, and sometimes I just let it ride, you know? But see, if we fear ourselves getting renovated, and I do, I mean, I have enough self-awareness to notice that my body does not like the way it feels. My brain does not like the way it feels when I'm doing this. And I still do it. Well, but there's a place, you know, for what?

This venerable Tibetan llama, a high up in the Himalayas once called, short moments many times. You know, don't think, oh, I must like drop the phone and go sit for 15 minutes, but this is a moment to take three breaths and just step back, you know, to get a little perspective, to kind of return to your body and those feelings of discomfort might be even more acute, but they're there, so why not feel them? And then you have a choice. You know, you're coming from a different place, so I think there's a lot to be said about

the power of just short moments many times, because then maybe even if your habit is just five minutes, you may not feel you have five minutes in that particular moment to have a formal dedicated practice. I also think it's great the way you use practice is not sort of lower or lesser to think, you know, it's taking me away from Twitter and these other things. I too have addicted to. I was thinking there's three addicts in this room with Joanna. So maybe she can do an intervention. You know, but I think it's that sense of relief,

or release also registers. Like look at this, you know, I'm not on the treadmill. I'm not doing the particular thing that I usually do for the sense of satisfaction. And then I think if you take those short moments and you go back to it, say, you also have some perspective, because it's so interesting, like,

what am I looking for? Like, do I want to know something for anybody else? Know's it? What's that? Or, you know, what is it? I think because of helplessness. It really is. I feel like the information is an antidote

to the helplessness in some way. Okay, so that's a tremendous insight. And that brings us back to what we're all, in a returning to, is like, let's look at that feeling of helplessness because that's a big problem. And that leads to withdrawal and apathy and you know cynicism and all kinds of things. So what can I do so that I'm not just buying into that feeling

of helplessness and it may seem like a very small action but it's important. It's important to identify and it's important to do. I love what you said about short moments many times because we can't just hurl ourselves into the lotus position every time we get annoyed. You gotta be able to do it right there, right then. So maybe just like a deep breath or just noticing that you are breathing whenever you get triggered can give you perhaps 10% more of a chance. That's a very interesting number. I'm sure you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure that you're pretty sure agree is a difficult election season. It's nice to have good friends to go through it with. Yeah. So thank you very much for coming in, really appreciate it. And I just remind everybody that, well, first of all,

that David's going to continue to cover meditation for real life on the New York Times. Plus, he has this amazing guide for beginners right up there on the site. And you're going to see some from him, some coverage about election stress as well. And you can get the free guided meditations on like how to write the ship internally on the 10% happier app from Joanna and from Sharon

and from Jeff up in Canada. We've got bringing a Canadian and would give us some sort of balance. We'll see how that goes. And if you again if you don't if you don't have an Apple device you can get the guided meditations on 10% happier.com. Thanks again for listening. As always, thanks again for everybody for participating. If you like what we do, you can rate us, review us, recommend us to people. We always love that.

And we'll see you next time. Good luck until November 8th, everything. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with 1-3-plus in Apple Podcasts.

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