Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 65: Sylvia Moir, Tempe, Arizona, Police Chief

Episode Date: March 8, 2017

During their cross-county meditation bus tour in January, our host Dan Harris and meditation teacher Jeff Warren stopped in Tempe, Arizona, to talk with Sylvia Moir, who has been the head of the Tempe Police Department for the past year. Chief Moir says her mindfulness practice has not only helped her during high-stress police calls but also in how she engages with and leads her fellow officers. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

Back in the day, we used to call those mix tapes. Just like you do that with music, you can do it with podcasts. So if you're looking for episodes about anxiety, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes. Or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes, or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist for that. We've even put together a playlist of some of my personal favorite episodes. That was a hard list to make. Check out our playlists at 10%.com slash playlist. That's 10% all one word spelled out..com slash playlist singular.

Let us know what you think. We're always open to tweaking how we do things and maybe there's a playlist we haven't thought of. Hit me up on Twitter or submit a comment through the website. Hey y'all, it's your girl, Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. I'm a new podcast, baby, this is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts,

the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad, where the memes come from. And where's Tom from MySpace? Listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. Hey guys, sorry, my voice is a little raspy today. I'm recovering from a cold,

but quick to be by the two-year-old Petri dish who lives in my house and goes by the name of Alexander. Anyway, I digress. This podcast is going to sound a little different because we recorded it in the field, and I have a co-host on this podcast. It's one of my favorite meditation teachers, Jeff Warren. You may have heard the podcast we recorded with him a couple weeks ago Jeff and I did this whole big cross-country Meditation tour a few weeks ago and one of the people we met on the way was chief Sylvia Moir from the

Tempe Arizona police department by the way that's how you pronounce Tempe It's not Tempe, as I always thought. Anyway, Chief Moir is a meditator and she's pretty new at the department in Tempe and has been trying to get her folks there to meditate and has gotten a lot of buy-in. And this comes, of course, at a really interesting time in the relationship between the community and the police department and communities all over the country and police departments a very tense time.

And there's some thinking in some quarters that teaching cops out of meditate may have some real benefit. And you're going to hear from an extremely articulate and very tough-minded person who's trying to put this into practice. So I give you Chief Sylvia Moir, along with Jeff Warren, who you'll hear conducting the questioning with me. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ From ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris.

[♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Chief, thank you. Appreciate it. I realize I've been spending much of my life mispronouncing the name of your fair city. I did the very same thing. I was corrected in the interview process when I was testing to come to the Tempe team and they said, well, do you say Tempe or Tempe? And I said, well, I say Tempe now and they said, you should change that. It's Tempe. Yeah, so I did the same thing.

How did you get into meditation? It was an interesting kind of pathway for me. I was a student at the Naval Postgraduate School. I was a practicing chief of police in the San Francisco Bay Area. And I read an article by Lieutenant Richard Girling. And I found it to be compelling in what the mindfulness practice offered for

the United States military and in the private sector. And I thought, huh, I wonder if there's something that would make sense in policing to help us as police officers, as police executives help us help our people with. Let me just jump in and explain who Lieutenant Richard Garling is. He's a police officer in Portland, Oregon, who found meditation and has been using it in his own work and his own department, and he's become sort of a national evangelist among police officers.

He has, and I think there's a lot, he brings science, he brings reason, he brings credibility. And what he does is he sets a stage that is really easy for skeptics to dive in and start engaging in the practices. I think Richard really wrote in an interesting way. And at the time I was not only in the neighborhood postgraduate schools of student and a chief,, I was not only in the Niveau Postgraduate Schools of Student and a chief, but I was also connected with the Board of the California Police Chiefs Association. And we were examining training that we deliver not only to executives in policing, but to police officers.

And so it was a natural thing for me to be inquisitive and ask him what it was about, and would there be applications that we could provide in Policing in California start from there. So that was my entry was inquiring Connecting with him diving into the science and then I became a Kind of a practitioner kind of a prank. What do you mean by that? You know, I just thought well, what is this Crunchy granola thing out of Oregon? I think someone said a fidgety skeptic. I'm a fidgety skeptic.

I'm one of those people that I've never been bored in my life because I've always got things happening in my head. And I thought meditation meant that I had a cease thinking and engage in something different. I said, well, that's what it is. I'll never be able to do it. So I could describe my path kind of later to being a practitioner and then bringing the promises of the practice to policing and what that's like. How did you get over that hump? I really did it, Dan, by just saying, look, this isn't about me. This is about diving into a potential practice that if it creates meaning, if it helps,

guardians, police officers with the acute chronic and cumulative stress and the toxicity of this work, then I absolutely have a responsibility to learn more, and if it makes sense, bring it to policing. Was it liberating to realize that you don't have to stop thinking? It was mind blowing, because I thought, I'm going to be sitting there, and I am distracted

by a lot of things, and I thought, I'm going to hear some clock ticking. I'm going to hear a bird. I'm going to, as a police officer, I'm going to hear footsteps, and I'm going to hear some clock ticking. I'm going to hear a bird. I'm going to, as a police officer, I'm going to hear footsteps. And I'm going to want to react to those footsteps to kind of safeguard people and this heightened awareness that police officers always have to have.

I thought I'm never going to be able to do it. And mindfulness gave me permission. I kind of describe it like this. Mindfulness is awareness and this non-judgmental attention to the kind of evolving experience that we're having. And as a practitioner, I learned that it's okay. Recognize that there's a distraction. I always say thank you because I want to be in gratitude and I just say thank you for that distraction and I come back peacefully. So the fact that I got permission to do that and to drift every once in a while and it was okay was the liberating permission for me.

Yeah, amazing. So well said, we even, this moment of realizing that you got distracted, that the intelligent move of saying, thank you, and going back to it, I mean, that is such a smart move that most people don't realize how important that is, because when you, if you're actually getting frustrated at that moment instead, you're training yourself to never want to kind of notice, because it's going to be, they're not going to get a reward. But if you're saying, thank you, it's like you're just creating a totally friendly inner climate that then actually increases the Possibilities and you've been able to to concentrate more fully. It's only like it's only taking the eight years to learn. Yeah, I mean Just like you just figured it right away. Yeah, that's super helpful

And I really trived it to the way we were guided Because I think so often by your initial teacher you mean? Yes, yeah, and this two and a half day immersion that we went through with Richard and his co-partners co-teacher and so I think what it did for me was give me permission and I think so often we need that in order to be something different than a construct that we have, an idea or a notion that we have. And so that was incredibly helpful for me and that's a part of my practice. I really practice gratitude a lot. I say thank you for the people that come at me with anger. I say thank you for things that I used to fight against. And it's given me a really interesting kind of path sense.

But I would imagine a lot of people listening to this would be like, well, kind of police officers are saying, thank you to the people coming after me with the anger and all the typical thing. You guys are out here to kind of handle all the problems. So if you're saying thank you to all of them, then how are we going to get rid of the problems? Damn, I wouldn't believe these words are coming out of my mouth,

and I believe I'm in my soul 20 years ago. I've been in policing since 1988, totally different era. And I think it's an evolution, really. And I think that by saying thank you, I'm not fighting against it. Exactly. We talk a lot in the executive circles of policing and really among some amazing thought leaders.

And we talk a lot about the corrosive drip of policing and that each event is this corrosive drip and by really having practices that help us build resilience. And I think gratitude is part of it. Saying thank you for that experience. But for that suffering and finding meaning in this suffering and fighting against this kind of thinking, I think it would be really difficult.

Yeah, it's interesting. You're, it's actually an even deeper practice than... There's already the practice of just accepting what's coming, that welcoming thing that you cultivate in meditation, the equanimity, but the gratitude is like an extra level on top of it, because what's implicit in it is saying there's a lesson in this. There's something for me to learn about this experience, like it has meaning. And that honors the experience. It puts a whole new level onto things.

And I think that you, I guess your teachers are really good. You've got good instincts, but that's what I mean, right? That's thank you for that. Because to me, that's a really key to remaining open-hearted. I mean, policing is this incredible profession that I don't think people have. You say going under the hood that it's actually kind of creepy in cop terms,

terms I say pull back the curtain to kind of demystify. And I think I've found police officers to be incredible people that we view our responsibility, our duty and this call as we are guardians always and warriors when we need to be. And I think your experience with the men and women of Tempe police earlier today probably illustrated that for you. It was a very kind compassionate people but tough as nails too. Just to fill that in, we spent some time with many of your officers earlier. And these are folks who are sort of wholeheartedly embracing

the practice of meditation. And I was pressing them. It was like, a lot of people will be like, this is you're going to lose your edge. You need to be tough on this job. And they were saying, actually, this makes us better, because we're not at war with our own internal experiences. We're more aware of what the kind of stress we're feeling. We're not taking whatever aggression came out

in the last call into the next call. So we're better at connecting with the people we're out there protecting and serving. I agree with you. And I think it takes courage. It takes courage because there's this narrative around police officers that we are hard and tough and cynical. And I think tough and hard and cynical, perhaps in one kind of description. But I think it's totally courageous to engage in a way that helps us experience what's unfolding and to be authentic in the way that we're delivering service and we're interpreting this environment. I think one of the promising things that mindfulness offers besides this incredibly important resilience piece and expanding perspective piece is I think the promise will be in understanding the path

of others, the experience of others that our fair and impartial policing practices will be enhanced as a result of mindfulness practices, because it's free of judgment, it's free of kind of identifying what you're going to experience and just taking in what this unfolding experience offers. And I think there's real promise for all of us. Just curious if you ever had any kind of real challenge trying to apply it. Whereas we're just like, you were trying to apply.

The principles are man, it's so hard in this particular situation. You know, fatigue is one of those. I think always, it's this interesting place than where I sit now. It takes incredible administrative and professional courage to encourage the practices of meditation and policing. Because people are like what are you talking about? Like

here's really yes because of the very question that you asked the officers earlier. They're like what are you talking about? This is going to make you lose your edge. You're going to be soft. What about the tactical necessity of the job? How, what about the, you know, you have to make split second decisions and be tactically sound? I offer that it makes us more tactically sound. I am not. One of the big challenges I have now is cultivating the discipline not to be a strict cop. So let me tell you what that means for me is I am not a field operator anymore. I don't get to go into a police car and touch people and go into neighborhoods and connect

to people and be the first-hand person that could seduce harm in a neighborhood. I serve them and women that serve the community. And I think the challenge is I use meditative practices, mindfulness practices differently. I use them in this room. I use them in this room earlier. I meet with a variety of groups, the different things that I engage with as a police executive now, range from budgets, personnel, strategy, policy, community engagement, development internally,

identifying strategic priorities for us. And I meet with a lot of people that are really angry. I meet with people that are suffering, that don't feel they've been served by the justice system. And so I do it in this room with family members who have lost someone, that officers that have done wrong and I'm holding them accountable. And so I have to use it differently. I use it in a very static environment where I'm holding them accountable. So I have to use it differently.

I use it in a very static environment where I'm not using mindfulness practices as many of our field-uniformed officers are. Is there using it to enhance their cognitive ability and all the other things that we talked about? So, I think the challenge is I'm triggered like any other human being. And the challenge is using it in the process of meeting with people that are in stress and distress. And it's also for a lot of people take out their anger on me. And it's in those moments where I have to really engage but also listen. Engage with engage, but also listen.

Engage with the practices, but also listen. Does that make sense? Yeah. I'm just curious, is it feel any different, applying them in this context? And I did when you were on the street or it's just the same thing. Just warning if there's any. I think it's a little different here because I'm the chief. People look to me for these micro accused, my face, any coloring, any eyebrow that will go up, a squint that I think they look to me for micro

accused for feedback. So I have to be very aware of how I'm practicing it and also stay completely engaged with listening. Totally. So you basically, you have got to walk the talk. That's the thing, but when you're teaching, you're modeling it all the time and you are modeling it in a way that's like next level because you have so many people who are looking to you. I think you're going to be too much credit, though. I don't think I'm teaching it. You teach it in the way you hold yourself.

I mean, it's sort of like there's explicit teaching and what you're actually pointing at the principles, but then there's implicit teaching and what you're in actually pointing out the principles But then there's implicit teaching and just like you know talking about the practice and in the way you talk about it And the way you carry yourself it becomes obvious that there's something going on there That's actually the part that I think people are most Influence by in a way. It's basically role models Because we hold it in our body language you hold it in your and how you are perhaps you can't It's hard to fake that.. And it's hard to fake that.

I think it's hard to fake anything. It's like, I love being in Tempe. I love being a cop. I love being a chief. That I, of people, four people. And to identify those things that make a difference in the lives of our employees internally, our professional staff and our sworn staff, they can all benefit from this. I think we are committed wholly to we have five key initiatives, always the

first one for any police department is addressed and reduce crime in the fear of crime. On the other end of that our fifth key initiative is employee development and resilience and this is one piece of that, our fifth key initiative is employee development and resilience. And this is one piece of that. The other piece, it's the permission to grow wholly and to develop as an entire human being and as a police practitioner. Yeah, can you say more about that? Because that's an interesting philosophy to have as a chief of police.

I think it's amazing, but that idea of moving towards full development to the person. So I think what it argues is we think, I think in most professions, we think I'm going to develop you as a journalist. And so you're going to look at this knowledge base and perhaps in policing, it is there's knowledge, but there's also the ability to analyze and synthesize and evaluate so it's some higher order thinking. It also argues that we are developing people in terms of their experiences. And we're developing the whole person, so developing heart and mind, I guess.

And saying, look, in policing, it's essential that we respond, we don't react. And this is really interesting evolution that's occurring in Tim P. So I took over for a chief that had been here for a lot of years, and he did some amazing things, and he had his very own culture. And the culture and the organization now is, I think, becoming a little bit different. We are contemplative, we respond, we don't react to things in a way that would be like the fire of the day.

We are very, we think and we respond in a different way. I think to develop the whole person is to say that you're not just who you are here. It's inclusive practices that you can be everything that you are spiritually or what makes up the whole person. And whoever you are, you are welcome here. And you don't have to spend time and energy being something that you're not in order to assimilate to what you believe a culture will accept. So I think some of that is over, some of it's covert, and I think that we are giving broader permission for people to be and to serve our community as guardians of people in the way that is right for them and the community that they serve.

And I think it might be a little bit different. I think there are a lot of incredible police executives doing some amazing things in this realm. What does your meditation practice look like? What do you do? It's ugly Dan. Yeah well mine's mine too. Dan at my age I can't do the cross-legged on the floor thing. I can't do it either. Yeah I said'm a chair. I'm a chair, kind of person. So, you know, I have some routines. I haven't completely habituated my meditative practice. I some of it I have habit in the early morning and I like to run and get my juices flowing and then I meditate. It is sitting and it is

following a guided app that has helped me. Reminds me to give myself permission to say okay this is a distraction but this unfolding experience is thank you and just follow it. And I try so the practice what it looks like specifically is me sitting in a chair going through a guided app when I'm alone. If I'm here in my office, I'll just close the door for just a 10 minute tune up. Because the daily life of a police executive and a municipality like Tempe is 6.30 in the morning till tonight, I think we're done around 10. And the array of subjects that we engage with are some are really heavy and some are more light and we get to be innovative and planned for the future.

But I will just sit in a chair and just be. And mine really is centered around an expression of gratitude for health and clarity and just really humbling being in the position that I'm in here. Yeah, it's interesting. The gratitude probably gives you resilience and it gives you energy. It gives you, you know, it's like taking a moment to have that kind of appreciation or it helps connect you to a feeling of meaning and energy. I'm just trying to understand how that supports

what you do here because it seems fundamental. I don't know if I have an answer for you, but I found that in all areas of my life it's been kind of the center for me. And I wasn't always aware that I was in gratitude, but in some way it's just kind of surfaced over time. I think I shared with you earlier that I think being a chief of police in Tempe is the

most liberating professional experience of my life because I really, nothing that I do is about me, Sylvia Moyer. It's about the role of the chief and the men and women of the organization. And so, I know somebody will write me a note and say, you know, you're probably smoking dope or something that that's really lofty and nutty and really. But I believe that and it's been liberating for me.

And I feel that the kind of service that we engage in this time in policing, people say all the time is the worst time to be a cop. Since the 60s we've been really engaged with, how do we police? How do we engage with communities? How do we serve people that they all have different needs and wants them? And this complexity policing is so vast. This social net has failed in some ways, and the police have stepped into fill it. And I think we've gone beyond the origins of policing communities

and filled gaps that perhaps aren't natural to us, but we're trying to make it work. I think it's the best time to be a police officer and best time to be a police executive, because I think there's social permission to do things that are different. There's social permission to engage with people differently, think differently, perhaps speak differently, take different action. And I think that's why this is the right time for these practices to take hold. It's really promising, I think. Celebrity feuds are high stakes. You never know if you're just going to end up on page

six or Du Moir or in court. I'm Matt Bellissi. And I'm Sydney Battle. And we're the host of Wonder E's new podcast, Dis and Tell, where each episode we unpack a different iconic celebrity feud. From the build-up, why it happened, and the repercussions. What does our obsession with these feud say about us? The first season is packed with some pretty messy pop culture drama, but none is drawn out in personal as Britney and Jamie Lynn Spears. When Britney's fans form the free Britney movement dedicated to fraying her from the infamous

conservatorship, Jamie Lynn's lack of public support, it angered some fans, a lot of them. It's a story of two young women who had their choices taken away from them by their controlling parents, but took their anger out on each other. And it's about a movement to save a superstar, which set its sights upon anyone who failed to fight for Brittany. Follow Dissentel wherever you get your podcast. You can listen ad free on Amazon Music or the Wonder app. You're also, you have a culture of people who are used to doing Dan Point is out to me, who are used to training. Who are used to thinking about like working on skills and that's just part of the culture of this place.

Good point. At this profession, frankly. Great point because we're really good at finding those, I call them perishable skills. The shooting, driving defensive tactics, all the laws always changing. And what we're doing with mindfulness practices is we're saying, look, we're going to give you a set of tools.

You take it. You use it for the whole you, personal and professional, make it what works for you, maybe a little quirky, maybe a little bit different than Dan does or maybe different than somebody else does, but you make it yours and continue to practice it and master the skill. And I think there is, you've got, it's a great point because we train consistently. So we're used to that kind of cadence. How do you imagine it helping your officers? And very specifically, what can it do? If I'm an officer, how's this help me do my job better? So I think a couple ways.

One is that if we are more aware of the unfolding experience, then I think it lends to seeing the environment differently and from an operational or tactical perspective. If anything can get us to calm down and increase our cognition, increase our awareness, then it benefits us. The other is that for self,

there are chronic and cumulative stressors, really the toxicity of policing. Things we often don't talk about. If we can build resilience, then we are more healthy throughout our career and at the end of our career. I see a lot of broken people that have closed off their heart and their soul because it saves them from suffering. And I think those are two real ways that the practice shows a lot of promise

in policing. Were at a time in the country where there's so much tension between the police and the community or there's so much tension between some police departments and some communities. Do you think mindfulness and meditation is something that can actually help with these really profound and sometimes violent chasms that exist? Without a doubt, I think the practice shows promise for getting us to be present, not take triggers, not take the bait that makes us react. And if the practice can get us to see the perspective of another,

to enhance our compassion, then I think it does lend itself to broader application in policing. And it's interesting, I met with members of our East Valley NAACP this morning. And we were talking about this, about how we engage with the My Brother's Keeper initiative from the White House, how we engage with young men and boys of color, how we engage with youth, that the brains haven't fully developed yet. And there's a lot of science that says a young man's brain doesn't fully develop till he's 24, which is shocking for me because I hire men at 21, but still not developed. Well, you know, we're all works in progress. But if we can teach practices to get people, marginalized communities, caregivers, police,

officers, everybody. If we can engage in practices that in some way offer us an ability to move through the dialogue with compassion and to learn from each other, then why wouldn't we encourage it? I think it shows a lot of promise in broader areas than just policing or medicine, aviation,

another high stress environment, I mean journalism. You guys are under as much fire as the cops right now. And so I think, you know, how does one stay kind of true to that noble endeavor, the why we enter the professions we enter? And if the practice shows promise there and helps us remain true to answering the call to journalism, answering the call to policing or whatever profession we enter into, because we pour our heart and souls into it.

We spend our majority of our lives in our professional environment. And if the practice helps us there and remember why we got into it and returns us to this place of gratitude, then we should continue practicing it. I don't know, it's funny, I was talking with Richard Girling last week, I'm really connected with him in terms of what he's doing in this arena.

And he said, you know, you've basically been doing this stuff your whole life. I mean, as an athlete, we're taught to breathe. As a police professional, we're taught to breathe. We called it combat breathing back in the days so we could have clarity. And all these environments were taught to breathe and to calm ourselves so we could be fully present. So I appreciate that you wanted to come to Tempe and that you're bringing this to the masses. Doing our best? I'm committed to being 12% happier.

It sounds like a book idea. How to go from 10 to 12? Yeah exactly. how to go from ten to twelve and over a t-shirt uh... one of my co-hosts on weekend good-waring america ron clayborn when i put my book out at first he uh... made a fake book jacket it was called eleven percent happier by ron clayborn and he held it up on the air he said look if you're only going to buy one book

right extra percent. So what have you found the most surprising about this journey of years? Well, so there's all the stuff we've learned about what gets in the way. And those include people who assume they can't, well the problem you had when you first heard about meditation. I can't do this because I can't clear my mind. That's one of the things we've found.

The other is I don't have this because I can't clear my mind. That's one of the things we found. The other is, I don't have time for this. And so we've been talking to people about ways you can slot it into parts of your day. We're actually, you do have time, like, right before you go to bed or right before you get out of your car, before you go into the house or your office, you know, you might be able to, and also the other thing we pointed out is that you don't need a 30 minutes for this. So it's great if you have it, but if you only have one minute, two minute, three minute, five minutes, like that's cool. The other thing we've been finding is some, and these two obstacles are definitely issues

that you deal with. One is, it's going to make me look weird. People are going to make fun of me. And also, it might force me to lose my edge. Dan, try being a woman in placework. There's a lot of risk of not looking hardcore. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was thinking about that.

And so that is a really interesting place. It's like, what is this construct of a police officer? What's this construct of a man in society today? And how will you push against the edge of that? Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. How do you push against the edge of that? Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. How do you push against the edge of that? Do you feel you're able to exhibit qualities that aren't traditionally seen as in that kind of more you know, the cheat the role of the chief, that traditional masculine paragon of like stealing us, you know? Twisting the deal. Yeah, so I guess I arrived at a place where I found the benefit of embodying some of the

more feminine traits and it doesn't mean feminine as in fru-fru, but I think what it says is I think I looked at Eastern thought and the Yin and Yang and masculine traits and the feminine traits and I really think that there's more social permission kind of this fluid approach, that one doesn't have to give up compassion to be courageous. One doesn't give up one to achieve the other. And so I arrived at this intellectual endeavor. I also found that there was a lot of strength in the emotional

side and the other things that make us people. And I think the fluidity is really important because it, I think, takes away a lot of what you're supposed to do. And it just gives this kind of pathway to authenticity, just be what the situation calls for, do what the individual needs. I think it increases some pathways for us to just be authentic. And it resonates sometime, it doesn't resonate others, but I'll tell you, I mean, even as a chief,

I have to be, I have to qualify, and I have to be tactically sound and physically fit and I have to be proficient in all the tools and all the tactics. But I think there's also a different approach that society and really policing has said we have some permission to engage in. To the extent that I think those feminine figures in masculine fields and masculine domains are kind of on the periphery still a little bit,

that may give us, I guess, some permission to try some new things. Many, if not most of the best leaders I've ever had in my professional context, have been females. Interesting. And I think it's, I really applaud you for doing what you're doing. Doesn't bringing this to people doesn't make a man less masculine in terms of the male

sense. I really think it strengthens you. And I applaud the men, look at the men you met today in Tempe. Those are very masculine figures played sports in college and they are really incredible warrior type figures that they have recognized. They don't lose what makes them a man by engaging in some of these practices and engaging in the expansion of compassion. Really remarkable people. One of the things we were talking about is that I, one of the obstacles that I encountered

as I was trying to, or as I was contemplating meditation, was that I'm not really in the market for getting in touch with my emotions, it's not interesting to me. But the emotions are there anyway. So either you seem clearly, or as Jeff says, they own you. And that has been, and I think that, actually talking about that with your men and women, I think it was obvious that that made sense to them. Is you go into a tough situation or you come home from work after a tough situation

and your options are squash your emotions, drink them away, or actually see them for what they are so that they, so you can process them. Sure, it's Medicaid or Medicaid. Yeah. Those are really some of your options, right? And great thing about meditation, it takes no equipment.

Sure. You don't need anything. And that's remarkable. I'm a runner, I run halfs and full marathons, and I need my shoes and nowadays I need my GPS and I need my fuel and I need all my stuff. But meditation really offers you this equipment-free liberation, this equipment-free kind of practice that enriches your life. Well, that literally is the trajectory of realizing that you don't need anything. I mean, in every way, that every moment is complete in its own way. There's nothing that needs to be added onto it. That becomes more and more the baseline that feels that it's available.

There's something inherently satisfying or full about each moment. And it's only your idea is that something's wrong with it that are what make it a problem. And then so the paradox there is how do you have that position and still be motivated to make a difference? Yeah, you can. Because having that position is what creates the efficiency.

It's what creates the clean signal to allow you to act when you need to act. There's no interference. There's no. All the interference that comes with like fighting with your life, fighting with the present moment, trying to pretend it should be different in some way or trying to negotiate with it. But you can drop all that. What's left is just this clear center to awareness that could then act more effectively. That's the trajectory. You know, that it's an ideal, but it does seem to be play out in people's lives when you talk to people

who've been practicing for a while. Sure, I don't think I've completely achieved that. I think it's going to take a lifetime. It's me either. So it's a long road. It's interesting, on Friday night, a commander and I were sitting down with men and women from the organization, professional staff, and so on sworn that have not performed well in oral boards.

And so we were sitting down talking about the practices and the discipline to kind of engage in the practices when you're on the spot. That's a tough... That is tough and... Kind of like you are right now. Okay, you're right. But you've been just handling it. Well, yes, and there's great consequence for them when they're sitting there in policing if you want to promote, if you want to go to detectives or a specialty, you have to take

an oral board test. And so what we're talking about and what we engaged with them on were some of the practices. And then we went into some of their fears were regarding, well, gosh, I looked at this panel member and he wasn't writing anything. So did that mean that I wasn't saying what I was supposed to say? So we talked about some of the practices of just letting that just pass through, acknowledge it and just let it let that pass through and the discipline that it takes to just say,

okay, I'm freaking out in this very moment and let that go. Don't try to judge based on what you're seeing in this unfolding experience, just take it in, say, okay, thank you. And then just proceed. I didn't know how to teach them that, but I did offer some resources for them

so they could engage just as you said. It's unfolding. Don't try to control it. Don't try to take it somewhere. Don't judge it. Just let it go. Let it go through. I think there's in what you're saying, there's all sort of really important compassion piece to keep in mind, which is that this is a kind of ideal to aim for that you inevitably in life some new level of intensity is going to come in. No doubt. And you have got to give yourself a break when that happens because you will lose it. You know, some intensity will come in, you won't act your best, you'll be reactive,

you'll be overwhelmed. And then afterwards it's like okay, that just shows you where there's still work to do. It's not, and that's just, it doesn't matter who you are, there's going to be something, some intensity that's going to come up at some point that's going to potentially be unmooring for a bit, and it's just about recognizing that. That gives you a lot of compassion for other people, because everyone's in that. Everyone's working with different thresholds, you know, but there is a threshold. That's interesting with Richard Girling, when we were going through the two and a half day intensive retreat, I found that a much more compassionate with other people than I am

with myself. Yeah, well we've talked a lot about this. Wow, and. So you hold yourself to a very high standard? Apparently I do. I was there with Chief Jennifer Tahada, of the Emeryville California Police Department, and we were going through the training together, so then we could kind of be champions,

advisors, and advocates for this promising practice. And we just, we're shaking our heads because we thought, wow, we are such kind, compassionate people, when it comes to everyone else, we cut ourselves at no slack at all. And so she and I as kind of colleagues and friends are really trying to help each other through that. And I don't know if you found that that's like the primary obstacle for people. For some people. Yeah, I was listening some of the obstacles

before and that's absolutely one of them, which is people feel like I'm busy taking care of everybody else. I don't, it's self-indulgent if I dedicate this time to myself. I will offer that I heard, I have no attribution for it, but I heard this, that there's really two definitions for selfish. In the United States, in the English language, we say selfish is to do for oneself at the deprivation of others. Whereas Eastern thought has two real definitions. One is the typical North American definition has to do for oneself at the deprivation of others, but they also

offer that there's a second one that says to do for self so I can be of greater service to others. I have no idea if that's true. I have no idea where it came from, but I've latched onto it as this piece that if I take five minutes to sit in my chair and to do this I'll be of greater service to others. Whether that is acting to safeguard somebody, holding, you know, grab in a criminal, taking someone to jail or comforting someone when they're suffering, I think the practice helps us do that for others. Yeah, it's interesting when you historically, when you look at the lives of great change makers, like the great sages and saints, and there's always a pattern of

withdrawal and return. It's a pattern of withdrawal and return. It's a pattern of withdrawing, working on your stealth, you know, you're, you know, working through these things. So then when you return, you can be more effective. And it's seen as common sense that understanding that those are the two. That's the rhythm. And yet we have such high, we're such, because we're such doers in the west. It's like go, go, go, do, do, do, act, act, act.

We can't, we don't take that time for that other side, with that withdrawal side of going in, working in it, but that's what creates the capacity. If you don't do it, eventually, you just see it, people burn out, they freak out, they just fall apart. So it's common sense. Yeah, and there's the, you're, that really resonates with me because we have this really interesting idea that we work harder will improve. Look at education kids the days are longer a number of days kids are in school in a year or are more there's more homework there's more for them to do but

the achievement hasn't kept up with the extra effort. That's really good. That's, I mean, it's funny. People think exactly, bear down harder. Yeah. Bear down even harder. Bear down even harder, but what happens? You're just like deepening that feedback loop, you know, and everyone's had the experience in their life of like doubling down, doubling down, doubling down, and finally they just

give up, take a couple of days off, and guess what? Then all of a sudden they're that much more productive again. But if you just kind of held, you just held onto it, you wouldn't have, you know, they just give up, take a couple days off, and guess what? Then all of a sudden, they're that much more productive again. But if you just kind of held onto it, you wouldn't have, you know, it just, it doesn't work that way. It's just such a, like a simple simplistic understanding of how minds and nervous systems work. Do you think the environment needs to change

for that permission to creep in? Yeah. I think we have a sabbatical. We give a sabbatical in the city of Tempe. If you've been here 15 years, you basically, you take a month. And I would think, well, 15 years a long time of grinding it out and suffering to get that rejuvenation piece.

I think there's not a lot of, I guess, I use the word permission a lot. I don't think there's a a lot of, I guess I use the word permission a lot. I don't think there's a lot of space permission or otherwise for people to do that. I know in 10P, one of the things we've started in the command staff and executive team is the tap out unplug time. Because most of us, we have our phones right next to us in the shower. Because we have to be connected 24 hours a day. Because of the very mandate of the profession that we're in.

And to be in command and executive, you're connected all the time. And so we are trying to institute some tap out, just get away and do for you and we got this. The others will take it. But that takes a real shared understanding of the benefits. And it's not really the sexiest thing I've done. It's hard for people to do. That's tough. And when the problem is, it's tough to get people to disengage and care for themselves. I mean, maybe that's a good problem to have, but certainly is a problem. Yeah, I mean, I think what you're pointing to is that there's so much urgency. There are so many real, huge problems. And the last thing people think that you need to do is actually, you know, is, is actually a way for the problems to think that because you, your, your sense of

responsibility and care for what's going on is so strong, you don't think that you can let go. Yeah. That is really the, that was an epidemic in Tempe when I joined the team. Because the call was, if you're not here, every minute of every day, you're 70% And so shifting that culture has been really, really tough. I think, you know, policing and policy and open data and all the things that we do in policing are really important and that one, that internal culture to give permission for that to take place. Whew, that's hard. There has to be a basis of trust that she's not just saying that she's

actually going to be okay with it. So that's really interesting. You offered that. Yeah, cheap thanks again for doing this. Thanks, it's amazing. It's really nice to meet you. Thanks for what you're doing and bringing this out to people. Thanks for being the guru. Okay, there's another edition of the 10% Happier Podcast. If you liked it, please make sure to subscribe, rate us, and if you want to suggest topics we should cover or guess we should bring in, hit me up on Twitter at Dan B. Harris. I also want to thank Hardly, the people who produce this podcast and really

do pretty much all the work. Lauren, Efron, Josh Cohan, Sarah Amos, Andrew Calves, Steve Jones, and the head of ABC News Digital Dan Silver. I'll talk to you next Wednesday. Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash Survey. at Wondery.com slash Survey.