Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 66: Profs. Holly Richardson & Matt Jarman, Virginia Military Institute

Episode Date: March 15, 2017

Virginia Military Institute, a military college in Lexington, Virginia, was another stop on the cross-country meditation tour, where our host Dan Harris and meditation teacher Jeff Warren spoke to Profs. Holly Richardson and Matt Jarman, as well as a few cadets who have taken their classes. Jarman, a psychology professor who leads a "Modern Warriorship" course with meditation, and Richardson, a physical education professor who teaches a mindfulness class, both talk about how they teach cadets in a military environment that meditation can help them be more mentally efficient. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

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Before we get started, I wanna say that something has happened that I never thought was gonna happen, which is we reached our one year anniversary. We started this thing as a total lark. I kind of expected, because I'm a pessimist, that we would fizzle out and die pretty quickly, but that has not happened.

Thanks to you, everybody who's listening. I'm incredibly grateful that you continue to listen and write little reviews once in a while and give us good ratings and all that. So keep doing that, please, and just know that I'm really grateful that you continue to listen and write little reviews once in a while and give us good ratings and all that. So keep doing that, please, and just know that I'm really grateful to you. And also extremely grateful to the people who've come on and been our guests and all the folks who do the work behind the scenes here at ABC News. So I'll stop gushing, but please know that I'm really psyched that we're at this year

point and hopefully many more years to come. So this week's episode comes from the cross country meditation tour that we did not long ago where we got that ridiculous bus and drove across the country and talked to all sorts of meditators and wannabe meditators and jacked up meditators, et cetera, et cetera. And on this stop in the trip, we stopped at a really counterintuitive place, the Virginia Military Institute, where you would not think they would be doing meditation, in the trip we we stopped at a really counterintuitive place uh... the virginia military institute where you would not think they would be uh... doing the meditation but they are uh... and this is one of these episodes where it's going to be co-hosted by me

and uh... my friend and uh... man crush uh... jeff Warren jeff Warren is one of my favorite meditation teachers in the world and he and i went on this cross country trip together and so it's interesting to be a VMI because neither of us is eligible to serve in the military. He, because he's Canadian and me, because I'm old and I have a checkered past. But the folks that we're gonna talk to,

or that we did talk to, and that you will know, here from our Qualified to Serve, and they are Professor Matt Jarman, and Professor Holly Richardson, and they're both doing incredibly interesting work at VMI with the cadets. So here you are, enjoy Professor's German and Richardson. From ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris.

Thanks guys. Welcome. Matt, let me just start with you. Just describe first if you would what you do. So I'm a psychology professor, I'm a psychology department, and I teach leadership class and this semester I've started a new class called Modern Warrior Ship. And in that class I was essentially teaching them to be warriors, which is to say, to be mentally and physically prepared to help others.

And meditation is the key mental tool that we're using for that. Do you think with students sign up for modern warrior ship, they think you're going to teach you to meditate? I do mention it in the course description just in case that might turn lock, but it doesn't seem to face people. Really? Yeah, it doesn't. It's interesting. Very receptive. And Holly, what's your role here? I'm in physical education and I teach a mindfulness class. This is the second semester of our mindfulness class. We follow the curriculum of what they're doing in UMass, Massachusetts medical school. Where they just explain that to folks, that's where they really invented mindfulness-based stress reduction invented by this towering figure I think, an American-life John Kabatzin,

a molecular biologist who really came up with a version of meditation that stripped out the metaphysical claims and the religious practices and just gave you the mindfulness. Yes, absolutely. And that's the curriculum that we're following, his curriculum. So we've had a class this fall. We have a second class this spring. So we're excited to bring this to VMI. So I have so many questions about how this goes down here.

But I want to start just by drawing out a little of your personal story. So, Matt, how did you start meditating? It started in graduate school. I took a course that was essentially about meditation and mindfulness. And I started there, and even before the class, I read one of the optional readings and kind of was hooked. I had always been looking for kind of how to be more productive and effective kind of

mentally, and this seemed like the perfect tool for that. And do you have a military background? No. Okay, so you can teach here and get the outfit without actually having served in the military. Right. Most faculty do not have military background, but most full-time faculty are in uniform and they receive a rank in the Virginia militia. Right.

And so it's kind of more to enable the tradition, the military tradition, to continue so that they can be in that military environment. What about it? What about the practice of meditation? Why did you feel you needed it? What was going on in your life? I think it was always just the search for how can I be more productive and efficient

and decrease stress, increase concentration. And this seemed to do that. I mean, graduate school was the thing that was going on. So you weren't looking to commune with the cosmos, per se. It was really just about how can I be as kind of optimally functioning as possible in terms of just getting work done?

And this has done it for me. How would you say it's done for you? Well, I just find that I'm far more mentally efficient in terms of doing my work and productive when I meditate. I meditate daily, largely because I know if I don't, I won't be nearly as productive or good at what I'm doing. Big, do you think it helps you stay on task? The exercise of trying to focus on one thing,

I would imagine your breath, and then getting lost starting again, getting lost starting again, it just really helped, it trains the mind to be right there with whatever task you're trying to perform. Right, yeah, yeah, so I'm much less scattered. And if I do find that at the end of the day I'm kind of tired and depleted but still need to do some work then I'll do another short meditation session,

kind of plan a sh of that and get back to work. And Holly, what about you, how did you come back? As an undergrad, I was taught transcendental meditation and did that for a few years and kind of walked away from it, fell out of that practice. And then about three years ago, I began reading John Kabatzen and taking a look at the brain research of the possibilities of mindfulness. So I've come back to it and my practice is now steady and that's one of the reasons why I wanted to bring it to VMI that I was getting benefits. I was reading about soldiers being deployed and coming back from deployment and how mindfulness does in fact studies suggest

that there's really good evidence that this is a tool that they can use to help with post-traumatic stress disorder and some of the challenges they come back with. What did it do for you personally? Why did you want it? Well, at first, I think when I was 20, I probably wanted to see Nirvana. But decades later, I felt like I was a bit more, I was reactive to things. I was kind of losing my cool a little bit more than I wanted to. And I started again. And it's really helped, call me, focus me.

I laugh more. I feel like I am a more authentic person because of that meditation practice. Wow. And do you have a military background? No. I'm a citizen soldier, so technically we're in the military, the Virginia military militia, but we are civilians. And so how did it go down, I'd be interested to hear from both of you, but when we started with you, when you came to this environment and said, all right, let's meditate. How did people react to that? Well, carefully.

Yeah, so I guess the great news is there's so much research out there and the brain research that really gives evidence that this does change the brain, it does help, and this environment for the cadets stresses endemic. It's pervasive. So, when I first got here, I was very concerned about the welfare of cadets as other faculty are. And I just realized, stress will be here. It will be here in the cadets life. So I flipped the way I was looking at the cadets health, and I thought about mindfulness and bringing that tool to the cadets so they could withstand

their first year here or as a senior they have the wherewithal and the sense of peace of getting everything done they need to graduate. So it was kind of a roundabout way that I felt like students could benefit. And Matt, what about you? Did you get funny looks when you said, hey, I want to teach meditation? Well, so I teach a leadership course that's required of all cadets regardless of major.

So I had a kind of mix of majors. And in that leadership course, I wanted to have a meditation component, but I was worried about how they would react. So first I just called it mind-fit training, kind of detention training, which is some way some more accurate description of what they're doing in terms of its outcomes.

And I didn't mention meditation. I got no resistance. And then I realized that they didn't really care. So from then, after that first semester, I've just called the meditation, and I've got no resistance at all. And many people report finding a lot of benefit from it. I offered, they can do it as extra credit, and some choose to do it. And those who do often report

Benefits and and and then and now that I'm teaching the modern warrior ship You know they maybe knew a little more that they're what they're getting into but still I'm no resistance They knew they were taking a course with the weird professor Yeah, yeah, the guy who does the meditation. Yeah Do you want to jump in here at all? Yeah, I'm just I'm interested. We said about the Post-traumatic stress disorder some of the research that it's showing there. And I'm wondering if you've had, you know, through here, there's been more, any more discussions around that or how you, how you think about that piece. That's a great question.

And in our, in the mindfulness class, class, we talk about different populations that could benefit. And so we spend a fair amount of time with post-traumatic stress, what it is, and how the application of mindfulness for that diagnosis. And certainly the cadets, I would say most all cadets are aware of post-traumatic. We've had in the past veterans return being redeployed from VMI. So it's on people's mind, not so much now, but certainly seven, eight years ago. So again, they know it and some have experienced it. Yeah.

Just how do you think it helps? What do you think is going on in the meditation itself that actually can make that difference? I have some thoughts too, but I'm just wondering how you frame it. Right. So in terms of the signs and symptoms of that post-traumatic stress disorder, it allows that individual to become present, to become still present, aware of a small thing as the breath can change that mindset of that individual who is challenged with post-traumatic. So I think it's switching the channel, so to speak, and the switching the mindset of the video of being back in conflict and realizing, no, I'm here, I have my breath, I'm okay.

So I think that that's certainly the first and immediate thing that happens. And then again, in terms of being more relaxed, less I guess the highs and the lows, kind of bringing those together. So I think that that's certainly our benefits that have been out there and that soldiers have used. Yeah, it's amazing because you can apply it after the fact, after they've been in combat, after they've had those experiences, but you can also apply it before the fact. You can begin to do that training, which prepares you in terms of the resilience. Absolutely.

I guess that's the beauty of it in terms of deployment, reapploiment. But and everybody has the capability of doing this, in terms of breathing and meditating. It's the practice that is challenging. And also, I mean, there's recent research looking at how meditation practice in soldiers pre-deployment can teach them skills, congregants, so that they are less affected in these negative ways afterwards. One issue that's been brought up is that

the military often uses stress inoculation, or they'll put you in stressful situations, and that depletes the kind of resources you need to deal with stress. And then you go out and you're depleted and you're in a stressful situation. So if you combine meditation practice and you combine the mental fitness component, it kind of acts as a buffer and helps you

so you can benefit as much as possible from that stress inoculation, because that can be valuable. But also giving you the tool to replenish those resources. So hopefully you don't get to the PTSD point. And so you see that resilience building up and you've seen it in your students? Yeah, and it'll be exciting to take a look at the student

evaluations came back to they are using this practice from their course. We have a member of the rifle team and she uses it during her rifle team practice but also in competitions. So yeah, we're seeing it being used. And we talk about just many, many seconds, where if they have to go in and see the Commodant for maybe a Domeric or punishment, that again, they have their breath,

they have that presence of breathing three, five times, going in and having a more productive conversation with someone who's handing out punishment or demerits. What is the focus of your research? And can you talk a little bit about more about what modern worship means and the role of mindfulness within that? Yeah, sure. So in the past, I've looked at things related to problem solving,

creativity, also to psychological wellbeing, and also social change. I'm very interested in change in creating social change and the cognitive processes within people and then the social processes and all the things that produce kind of desirable social change. And so from my perspective, a warrior is one who creates change of some sort, the route, the kind of, you can trace the word war to kind of creating disorder and change. And so, essentially, you're changing some undesirable process. And so, that can be in a military context,

but the way I'm thinking about it can also be in the business sector, even at home, if it's creating some sort of change in a process for the benefit of others, so it has a helping component as well. And warrior ship, the way I'm talking about it, is the mental and physical training, the discipline training, to allow you to be a more effective warrior, to allow you to be mentally and physically ready and able when the time comes to help others, whether it's kind of this systematic kind of, if you're leading a big change in an organization,

or if it's just helping someone who needs help on the street all of a sudden, being mentally and physically ready for that. But is your broader definition culturally acceptable within the military? Because sometimes you hear people in the military describe their essential job as killing people and blowing things up. Right, yeah, I don't know if people might have different definitions of worship. I think that there's often discussion of, is it ethical to train, to teach meditation

practice to this, to people who might be killing others? Is that ethically sound. From my perspective, if you're more mentally and physically, the mental training allows you to be better at making decisions, acting quickly, reaction times. So in my mind, it allows you to do your job better, which hopefully results in as few casualties as possible. So I'd rather, if someone is in the profession, the requires that sort of action

that they be as mentally sound as possible. Yeah, I spent some time with a woman who was training Marines to meditate, and she said she had taken a lot of blowback from traditional Buddhists saying, you're making better baby killers. And she said, no, I'm making people who kill fewer babies. Right.

Right. Yeah. What kind, what would you say is the biggest obstacle that your cadets face in either starting meditation or maintaining it? I think in general, one of the biggest challenges to any new practice, which is why people, you know, constantly fail at New Year's resolutions and things like that.

And the research, you look at habit formation and there are certain conditions under which you're more likely to form a habit. Research shows, for example, that we tend to, we have a resolution, right? We have this intention at the beginning of the year to do something, let's say it's meditation. Research shows though that even the brain structures they're responsible for intention are different from those that govern habitual action. So just because you have the intention to do something doesn't mean it's going to become a habit. In fact, whether it becomes a habit has to do with contextual cues.

If you want to meditate, but it's extremely inconvenient to meditate. You don't have the space set up. You don't know when you're going to do it. Even if you really want to, it's not going to happen. So one of the first topics that we discussed in my class was research on habit formation. How do we do that?

So identifying some kind of contextual cue that occurs regularly that you kind of pair that habit with and so for example my cadets they will meditate in the morning for a 15 minute period and then also five minutes of meditation right before they do start getting to work on homework because I figure what's something that they do every day? They do they have to do work at some point right? So if they can tie the meditation to that,

then hopefully even when they leave this class, that'll still be a cue that'll prompt this behavior. And the key piece with habit is, if it is a habit, habits don't require you to exert willpower, because you just do it, right? So people think, it takes a lot of willpower to start a new, to do this new practice like meditation. Well, once it becomes a habit, you don't, it doesn't take any extra willpower, right? So that's the key. We need to make it a habit, because

otherwise you're constantly having to exert this willpower to make yourself do something that is just difficult, right? So we're trying to make it not so difficult and just kind of automatic. Raising kids can be one of the greatest rewards of a parent's life. But come on, someday, parenting is unbearable. I love my kid, but is a new parenting podcast from Wondry that shares of our freshly honest and insightful take on parenting. Hosted by myself, Megan Galey, Chris Garcia, and Kurt Brownleur, we will be your resident not-so-expert experts.

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You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Let's say more about having a performance. What other useful tips and tricks have you fared it out? And the research they talk about, so the key pieces are, have a formation requires some repetitive act. It requires contextual cues. They can be particular time of day, they can be a particular environment you're in, people you speak to, and then an intermittentmittent reward is ideal. Because the goal is that the habit be kind of intrinsically motivated, you're not doing

it just for some reward. So it's like slot machines, you don't get paid back every time, right? So it's that Intermitt instrument reward that kind of, you're not doing it for the money, you're doing it for the game because you don't get the money every time. So that can't be extrinsically motivated so much. Yeah, it does. So with meditation, for example,

I think the rewards are inherently a little bit intermittent. After some meditations, you feel like, after some meditations, I feel, wow, I'm in the zone, I'm productive, right? Anditations, I feel, wow, I'm in the zone, I'm productive, right? And others, I feel more calm, but, you know, and so those kind of big changes in my ability to perform are somewhat intermittent,

so that kind of satisfies that requirement. And then, you know, creating, I do it a particular time of day. And then also, one good strategy is, if you have an existing habit, you can tie it to that. Which is where the homework comes in and they do the homework. It's tied to that and then you're good. You do this on the other hand. Yeah, this is absolutely fascinating. I think a lot about this too.

And when I look at friends of mine and students who successfully have a meditation practice, it's because it's become automated. And they just roll it a bit, this is the time they do it, they think of it as brushing their teeth or something, it's just they've made it into a habit. But you said something really interesting, and I want to just make sure I understood it, which is that actually intermittent reward of meditation is part of what might make it work as a habit, in a sense that you sometimes there's a feeling of it being wow I feel phenomenal I feel really great but other times you meditate and you might still feel a little bit scattered or it's not like a perfect guarantee all

the time but you're are you saying that that that intermittency actually can be part of what helps it be a practice people stay with yes someone that's such a yeah never thought about that yeah. Yeah, that's my understanding of the research, basically, they're saying, because yeah, if it were only for those kind of, you know, amazing benefits for meditation, then, you know, if you didn't have them a few times, then you'd stop, right? Who are you doing it then? But if you know that it's intermittent, then, you know, you're not going to stop if there are a few meditation sessions where your mind still feels scattered.

Yeah, yeah. No, that's so important. I mean, it's such an important principle to teach, to give people, people understand the big picture of a practice is that it's not going to be all unicorns and roses every day. It may never be that. But even like the really nice juicy feeling absorbed and feeling calm, there's an analogy that one teacher uses that he compares it to exercise, but he compares it to running.

And he says, you know, in running, there's the reason you're doing it, which is better cardovascular health, but then there's the effects of running. And sometimes you might go running and feel invigorated. Other times you feel breathless and exhausted. Other times you feel in pain. Every run you're building towards better cardiovascular health. So you can't depend on the actual effect of what's happening in the run to tell you anything about whether you're getting that result. And it's the same with kind of meditation. You can have these wonderful experiences, but really you're doing for better sort of social, you know, psycho-mental, and emotional health. I'm glad you said that because for me, personally,

I don't judge the quality of my prior, try not to judge the quality of my practice based on the quality of my last sit. I base it on like, am I less of an idiot overall? And that is, I think, that's where, that's the reward for me that I continue to get from it, and that's why I keep doing it. And so what do your students say about the, if they try to articulate the reward overall,

you know, how they see it changes and what are the some of the ways you, what do they say, what do you hear? Well, I think that the students in my class would go back to just something that had happened in the day, just an incident with a roommate or a comodont or just being able to step back and not be on that treadmill of what if what if what if that that they do see practical applications in their life. And, but I also kind of work them toward some place in their life that they want to have a more authentic presence with or less stress with or, you know, to have them think about a purpose as narrowing it down to a specific need that they themselves have. And then, kind of, apply that practice in a specific way

and let that practice grow for the kind of overall mind-body benefits. That's one philosophy. Can you give an example that comes to mind of that? Of work. Yeah, so it was interesting. The class that I taught, we had a number of different cadets. We had commissioning cadets, we had seniors, we had athletes, and again, before a game or before a practice.

And again, there are journals and I have them journal regarding their reflection on that practice, which again helps to, I think, maintain that, to let them see just maybe the ups and downs of that practice. And it may not be mind-based, see just maybe the ups and downs of that practice. And it may not be mind blowing one day, but that they're more focused on the game. Or they take the coaches criticism or positive feedback in a better way.

So I think that the cadets that I have, they want specific things to happen. But also, I kind of introduce those practices for that reason. So the guiding, the core of our mission on this little road trip we're doing here is to try to figure out what's stopping people from meditating or what's messing up their practice. You mentioned before just the obstacle of setting up a habit. What else is there? What else do you think gets in the way of people starting in this context here,

a meditation practice. I think, I mean, you have to, we tend to focus on the person when we ask, why isn't this person doing something? But you have also taken consideration in their environment and some could have told me that, their roommates kinda make fun of them, it's just kinda in a friendly manner.

But they also say ignore it. And so that's one thing, or even just the fact that others may not be doing it. And even if it's not against that, it's still not environment that's really encouraging. And which is why that habit formation and creating the habit is so critical because without that, there are just so many other activities here.

And here in particular, their time is very structured and they're very, very busy, which is why I try to explain that your meditation is not, you shouldn't view it as, losing time by meditating. It makes you so much more mentally productive and efficient that you're actually gaining time. But what do you say to people who say, oh, people are gonna to make fun of me

and think I'm weird if I do this thing? What's the practical advice you give those folks? Well, in a modern worship context, I just had this conversation with the yesterday, part of being someone who is preparing to kind of make change when change is necessary. It means that you're going to be going against a lot of people. So I view that as wonderful practice.

So if you can't do something as simple as meditating and be okay with the fact that others might think it's a little weird, then you're not really getting into the training yet. So I'm actually going to be having them do stuff that will make them uncomfortable. I love how you're turning that around because they're worried that they're not really getting to the training it so so i'm actually going to be having them do stuff that they'll make them uncomfortable i love how you're turning that around because they're worried that they're going to be called a was if they meditate you're saying no actually you're a was if you don't right yeah because i mean if you can't meditate and and deal with the fact that they're you know

make amc says such a minimal threat as far as you know grand scale yeah part being a warrior is going against the stream. Right, exactly. So that's just one other opportunity to practice going against the stream. What about for you? I haven't let you weigh in on this issue at all,

which is like, what do you think of the cadets you're dealing with? What are the major obstacles to actually doing this practice? Just a great quote from this guy who we're going to talk to later on our road trip, who says, we know the medicine works. We just can't achieve compliance. I think the cadets would tell you, I don't have time.

I don't have time throughout the day to start a practice. First of all, they need to know how to. So I think courses are so important. Basic mindfulness, 15 weeks, 10 weeks. I think that's critical to have an instructor really setting the stage and providing evidence that this can help. And the practice, taking the group through that practice, but also requiring as odd as simple as it may seem, homework in terms of coming back,

reflecting on that and putting that part of your practice. So I would say time, this image of, I don't have time. And then also, again, I guess, the misunderstanding of what is mindfulness. And then I think another important part is just role models. Having role models, having populations

that they can look to or look toward and say, gosh, I didn't know that coach meditated. I didn't know the Marines were some of the first to adopt that tool. So it's giving them context. So who do you point to? You point to the some of the coaches on campus or the Marines are doing it or who else do you point to? Athletes. Yes, I would say athletes pro athletes. Again, there are a number of

faculty and staff who have been deployed that have come back and they practice, so they are great guest speakers. So people that the cadets see as someone they'd like to emulate. So I think that's important. I think in terms of, you know, we've been sort of trying to taxonomize that we call them the secret fears that stop people from meditating. We may have a new one or a new way to frame one of them, which is that people are going

to think I'm weird if I do this. And that seems to be the big fear, or one of the big fears here, and these guys will come up with ways to, you know, one, if, you know, to reframe it as like, you know, if you're actually going to be mentally tough, you need to be able to withstand that peer pressure. And two, look, there are tons of tough, not weird folks who are doing this. You can do it, too. Absolutely. And I was thrilled when one of the central administrators showed up at our mindfulness meditation.

It's like, yes. So he does it, he bought into it, you know, and he's a tough, he's a tough soldier. So yeah. I have a question based on something you guys said, which is, you know, we're acknowledging that there's a kind of warrior spirit and going against the stream, and that can really help. What do you mean by going against the stream? So that's a classic term in which is used in Buddhism. They say the momentum of everyday life

is to just continue tumbling along on heating, just to go along, to go along, to kind of keep ratcheting it up, to actually stop and pause and take stock of your life, and decide to not go along with that, is considered to be going against the momentum of the culture.

So there's something kind of inherently, you know, there is a warrior quality to that very much. So I think that's really important to emphasize, but at the same time, the reason it's hard to do is because all of the contextual cues from the environment are to say, don't do it. You know, or this is not important. So to have a kind of environmental wrapper where it's okay is quite important.

That's what people say about having a community to sit with, for example. That once a week, you can sit with a community and it kind of normalizes it. So do you have anything you're doing in around that, like a kind of regular weekly meditation? Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, we, we, we, uh, uh, hollying our coordinating a, uh, uh, mindfulness meditation, uh, thing twice a week, Mondays and Thursdays for 40 minutes, open the faculty, staff, and students, uh, and,

and yeah, so, so people are welcome to come, we'll offer instruction if they need it, uh, and we'll, we'll meditate and, they need it. And we'll meditate. Isn't there a quality of warrior ship, though, to the actual practice? You are facing the insane torrent of your own mind, and you're willing to sit there and deal with it. And every time you get lost in the chaos, you're like, oh, I notice I'm lost and start again. That takes a spirit of worship as you define it.

And there are many meditation traditions that we'll talk about how meditation isn't this soft, kind of fluffy thing. You're facing your fears, you're facing your stresses, head on, you're kind of leaning into them. And it's giving you the tools to do that more effectively and to not be kind of swept away by them. But it certainly involves that process.

And so in some ways, there's the idea that to be best able to help others, you need to first help yourself. And that, even that requires this act of warrior ship. But I love that you emphasize that, because that's something you know, this act of, warrior shift. But I love that you emphasize that, because that's something that's so refreshing to hear. I think one of the criticisms of meditation is somehow that it's self-indulgent.

Deframing it as actually, it's a basic sanity to be able to help yourself become more efficient at helping others. You know, you get clear and sainer, and then out of there, that's where you extend your helping hand, and it'll be much more effective in that. Exactly.

Well, and it brings up a tradition of mindful kindness, loving kindness meditation in terms of different mantras or different phrases that we all could teach people, or certainly instructors. So there are different lines and menus that you could pull to really pull out that compassionate warrior, I guess. Let me just jump in and define that for some folks

minute know what loving kindness meditation is. It sounds hopelessly syrupy and I was deeply resistant to it when I first heard about it. And actually in practice, I often describe it as valentine day with a machete to your throat because you basically are sitting there envisioning a succession of people, people you love, people you have problems with, people you don't even know, and you're systematically sending

them good vibes. And again, I think a lot of skeptics would be like that sounds pretty annoying, but actually there's an enormous amount of sign, enormous amount. There's a significant amount of science that suggests that not only does it have a lot of health benefits, but it can actually change the way you are in the world. So I wonder, as given what you would just heard about my skepticism about loving-kindness meditation, how do you introduce it at Virginia Military Institute? Very carefully.

So, very carefully. So, yeah. So, I must admit, I haven't tried the loving kindness with cadets. I have tried a mantra that the Tick-N-Con. Tick-N-Con is a famous Vietnamese and master. Yeah, yeah, and just the simple, you know, I'm at peace. You know, I am still. I am here. So that's as close as I've gotten to loving kindness,

to confess, but that's a, you know, I bring that into my practice and it's helped. So we'll see if I can go against the grain to bring that type of meditation here. Just bringing it back before we sensitive to your time. So as we head toward the conclusion of this, just to bring it back to our mission here, which is really to fair it out,

what are these, as we call them, secret fears that are stocking people from meditating? I wonder, you didn't raise this, so it may not be an issue, but one of the things that was an obstacle for me, and we hear this at the 10% happier app company that we have, we hear this from customers, which is a fear that meditating might erode your edge. And especially in a military atmosphere, you have to be tough, you know, and your job ultimately may be to go out and kill people and blow things up, that if you meditate, you might become too soft to actually do that, or to compete against your peers.

Is that something that either of you has encountered? There really happened. Really? That's so good. Interesting. Is that something that either of you as encounter? Really happened. Really? That's so interesting. I would look at it in a different way. Okay. That you have that focus.

You have a pinpointed kind of focus like an arrow. That's how I see that in terms of not so much losing your edge, but really focusing that edge, just like focusing that edge to what you do, whether it's warfare or wall street. So I might disagree with some of that. Oh, well, I totally disagree with it. It's just a sec—I mean, my whole mission is to identify clearly what the psychologies are at work that are preventing people from doing this thing that would probably be good for them and to knock them down.

I don't think it reduces your edge, but I think it is a fear out there. Yeah. And I feel like it's probably a fear more that people have who are not, don't really know what meditation is. That's one of the problems, the baggage that the word meditation has. So I never just talk about meditation without first explaining all the rationale of what it's doing.

And so I think if people realize that it's honing their attention and their mind, how can you think that would possibly get you to lose your edge? So I think understanding of the meditation practice and its goals is critical. And I always explain that there are different types of meditation with different objectives. This one has this objective. So I think that helps. Thank you guys. Really, really great to sit and talk with you.

Really appreciate it. We're going to actually spend some time with some cadets as the day proceeds. So, shall we try to slip in some scovert loving kindness? Yeah, that would be fun. I can actually even risk this. Yeah. I might get hit with a bayonet. It's a compassion practice.

Yeah. I'll just get them to visualize Dan in a robe with a blow dryer blowing his hair back, like down in a ribbon of love. I like that image. OK, there's another edition of the 10% Happier Podcast. If you liked it, please make sure to subscribe, rate us. image. the work Lauren F. Ron Josh Cohen Sarah Amos Andrew Calb Steve Jones and the head of ABC News Digital Dance Silver. I'll talk to you next Wednesday.

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