Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - Goldie Hawn On: “Brain Breaks,” Curiosity, And How To Make A Romantic Relationship Last For 30 Years

Episode Date: August 12, 2024

Don’t be fooled by the bubbly public persona.Goldie Hawn is an Academy Award winning actress, producer, director, and best-selling author. She’s written two best-selling books, a memoir called A Lotus Grows in the Mud and then, more recently, 10 Mindful Minutes, which is for kids and parents. She is also the Founder of MindUP, a charity that equips children with mental fitness.In this episode we talk about:How she got interested in meditation — a story that, like Dan’s, involves panic attacksThe power of curiosity What she means when she talks about GodWhat it means to take a “brain break”Why jealousy has never really been part of her repertoireAnd how to make a romantic relationship last.Related Episodes:How To Live A Happier Life | The Dalai Lama & Dr. Richard DavidsonSign up for Dan’s weekly newsletter hereFollow Dan on social: Instagram, TikTokTen Percent Happier online bookstoreSubscribe to our YouTube ChannelOur favorite playlists on: Anxiety, Sleep, Relationships, Most Popular EpisodesFull Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/tph/podcast-episode/goldie-hawnAdditional Resources:Download the Ten Percent Happier app today: https://10percenthappier.app.link/installSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to 10% happier early and ad free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello, everybody. How how we doing? We've got a great show for you today. There is an extremely interesting contrast in my opinion between Goldie Hawn's persona and her actual personality. On screen as you know, she commonly plays a goofball, but in real life, she is

a deeply curious person with a profound interest in neuroscience and meditation. That is not to say that she's never funny in real life, but once you listen to this interview, you'll get a fuller picture. Goldie Hahn is an Academy Award winning actress, producer, director, and bestselling author. She's written two books, a memoir called A Lotus Grows in the Mud, and then more recently, Ten Mindful Minutes, which is for kids and parents. She's also the founder of Mind Up, a charity that equips children with mental fitness. In this conversation, we talk about how she got interested in meditation, a story that, like mine, involves panic attacks, the power of curiosity, what she means when she talks about God,

what it means to take a brain break, why jealousy has never been a big part of her repertoire, and how to make a romantic relationship last. She's been with her partner, the actor Kurt Russell, for more than 30 years. Just to say, before we dive in here, we are rebooting this week an occasional franchise that we run here on the show called Boldface, where we talk to well-known people who are

willing to truly go there. Coming up on Wednesday, it's the rapper Common, and on Friday, it's a personal dad rock hero of mine, Jeff Tweedy from Wilco. We'll get started with Goldie Hawn right after this. But first some blatant self-promotion. This will be quick. One of the biggest problems that many of us face in terms of keeping our meditation habit going is that we don't know other people who do it.

And actually having that social support can be a huge, huge deal, which is the operating thesis behind the meditation party retreats that I've been throwing with Jeff Warren and Sebine Selassie. We've got another one coming up on October 11th at the Omega Institute in Rhinebeck, New York. You can do it in person or online. BIPOC scholarships are available.

Go to eomega.org for more information. Meanwhile, over on the 10% Happier app, they're rolling out a new feature called monthly check-ins at the start of every month. You can set an intention, share your obstacles, and get a personalized meditation plan. And for a limited time, you can get 40% off a subscription. Head over to 10% dot com slash 40.

Listening to Audible helps your imagination soar. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, new ways of thinking. Listening can lead to positive change in your mood, your habits, and ultimately your overall well-being. Audible has the best selection of audiobook books without exception, along with popular podcasts and exclusive Audible originals, all in one easy app. Enjoy Audible anytime while doing other things,

household chores, exercising on the road, commuting, you name it. My wife, Bianca and I have been listening to many audio books as we drive around for summer vacations. We listen to Life by Keith Richards. Keith, if you're listening, I'd love to have you on the show. We also listen to Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari. Yuval, if you're listening to this, we would also love to have you on the show.

So, audiobooks. Yes, Audible. Yes, love it. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free 30-day Audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.ca. Visit audible.ca. audible.ca. Are you listening to this podcast in your car or in your commute to work? Maybe you're dropping your kids off at school. I'm Dan Snow and on my podcast Dan Snow's history hit, I

transport you to somewhere a little more exciting. With in depth series and storytelling unravel the mysteries of the Inca at Machu Picchu, follow the footsteps of Howard Carter to Tutankhamun's tomb, and hunt down Shackleton's expedition to Antarctica. For historical adventure and escapism, check out Dan Snow's history hit, Wherever You Get Your Podcasts. Goldie Hawn, welcome to the show. Thank you. I've been longing to be on your show. I've been longing to have you on this show, so it's finally arrived. I'm curious, I know that you got interested in meditation and Buddhism in around 1972,

but I'd be curious how and why. What is so interesting about your story and mine is that it's similar. I was a dancer, that's's what I was gonna be. And I had no interest other than dancing. But what happened was I was pulled out of a chorus line by an agent, and he sent me up to another, I would say, producers of a TV show. I had no idea this was gonna happen.

I didn't really believe he was really being true. So I forgot about the meeting I was supposed to have. So anyway, go there, they sign me, boom, and now they put me up for an acting job. I go over there thinking that this isn't really exactly what I was thinking of doing, but I did. I went to Desilu Studios back in the day and it was the late 60s. So I auditioned, but I knew that I was too young. Okay, I was not old enough to be who I was pretending to be. And I said, I'm sure I didn't get that. And I was going to go on to dance career. And as

it turned out, they wrote a part in for me. So when they write the part in for me, I got anxious and I started having panic attacks. And these panic attacks were something that I never experienced other than being afraid of the atom bomb back when I was 11. I can't explain what happened or why. Very happy child, loved my dancing career. I always had optimistic points of view. When I was 11, people used to say to me, 12, what do you want to be when you grow up, Goldie? And I said happy. And they kind of looked at me crazy. I'm not quite sure why I said that, maybe because I was going through my own so baby trauma about being killed by an atom bomb. But then this time I absolutely could not leave my house without getting sick to my stomach. So I found this job where I had to perform, where I was needing to perform in front of an audience.

It was a three camera show. I can't explain what I was experiencing to perform in front of an audience. It was a three camera show. I can't explain what I was experiencing, although now I understand people have these panic attacks, they have depression, they have these areas of mental health and mental instability. But then I had no idea I was a carefree dancer, I was happy girl. So for me to not be able to go in public because I would get sick to my stomach and

have to go to the bathroom, I would get dizzy, and I was frightened. So what happened was instead of just wondering what was wrong with me, I went to a doctor and I found a psychologist that I worked with as it turned out for about nine years. And I look at that and say, okay, the blessing was the panic attacks. The route I took was to get myself better because it wasn't who I wanted to be and it wasn't who I was. And that led me in 1972 to meditation. And I just decided it was the Beatles, you know, it was like, you know, all these wonderful things that were happening back then. And I decided that I was going to take and be initiated into TM. I went to get initiated. They gave me my mantra, which is very secret, can't tell anybody. they ushered me into a beautiful room with a flower and incense and a candle and sort of beautiful wind coming through the window. This was in Westwood, California. And I can't explain.

It's very hard. It's sort of like this holiness of Dalai Lama says, how do I explain the taste of a tangerine? It's very hard to explain what it tastes like. It's very hard to explain what it tastes like. And that's what I felt. I felt joy. I could hear my heartbeat. I had silence, quiet. I feel like I met myself again or I met my true nature again. And this was my first meditation.

And I'll never forget what that felt like. So while I had finished doing basically my psychology, working with my psychologists, I started in this world of meditation and mindfulness and understanding what was going on with me as a self-discovery person, who am I, what am I made of, and all these questions that are reflective, I found this to be incredibly healing and very, very effective. And it took me, as we'll talk about, into a whole other world. The main dish for you professionally

is introducing mindfulness to children. And we're gonna get to that in a big way coming up. But let me just stay with this narrative that you're describing. So you mentioned TM, that stands for Transcendental Meditation. It's very popular, especially in Hollywood. I think some of that may be because Maharishi Mahasyogi, the guy who literally trademarked

TM, which is an ancient Vedic form of meditation, was hanging out with the Beatles in the late 60s, early 70s. And so it got quite popular. So I'm just curious, is that the form of meditation was hanging out with the Beatles in the late 60s, early 70s, and so it got quite popular. So I'm just curious, is that the form of meditation you practiced to this day or did you end up taste testing other flavors? Oh, I went to other flavors. Thomas Merton, I went to more, you know, trying to understand mindfulness in all different areas. I've studied a lot of religion because religion does fascinate me. Some religions are based on some very beautiful things. And I'm just curious about the mindfulness and also their meditative ways that they conduct their meditation. It's a journey for me to see that this was a very basic notion, including Jesus. And I've read books on Jesus,

Buddha, Jesus, these things. A lot of understanding about Jesus, who that was another, I guess, voice, if you will, to understand why did he go to the desert? Why did this happen? What I feel is that when we're in a state of meditation, whether it's in whatever religion you're in, Kabbalah, is that it asks also of you to rise above yourself. And that I think is a very important aspect. We need more of that today to be able to self-examine who you are and what you believe and also feel that feeling of incredible spirit of things that we can't always answer, but we know that are there for us and they fill our heart and they

fill our mind in a very healthy way. It's interesting you talk about getting out of your own head or rising above yourself. I would imagine that's tricky when you're incredibly famous and your product is you. What I learned very early on, because I was 21 when I went to a psychologist, 22. But what I learned was through my focused attention and my meditation, but also from him,

I learned that people look at you as basically like a Rorschach test. You're really something that someone's perceptions will put on you, whether they're positive or negative. And I would learn through my meditation to witness things rather than to be it, to actually witness other people's behavior, knowing that everyone has a different perspective. Everyone comes with their own set of problems, and you never can sort of look at why did they say that or how come they love you so much and why is this happening? I didn't have to answer it. I just watched it. So I didn't fill my ego, I didn't want to, I didn't get that. I just became more scientific about how I looked at these things, so I didn't go to bed feeling bad or good. I just went to bed like me. And I think that's

what saved me by climbing so fast to, you know, when I was un-laughing, it was like boom, what happened? I had so much study before that period and continued on through it because had I not had this skill, I would have been confused about all of it. confused about all of it. But now I'm not. And I wasn't then because I was able to say, Goldie was a darling of whatever, right? I don't know. But in the meantime, I really thought to myself then, I was, remember I was 24 years old, and I thought they love to build you up, right? You find something new, this girl landed from Mars, whatever. But it's only so long before the press and things like that want to bring you down. And how I knew that at 25 or perceived that that way gave me a sort of a balance, a level-headed idea of looking at consciousness, looking at people for who they are and for who they

think they are without any, what do you call not putting fingers but it helps me understand the vast nature of the psychology of each and every person. This is i guess gets back to why you described your panic attacks is a blessing that having. a good chunk of therapy and meditation under your belt when you're 24, 25 and we're in the midst of this meteoric rise with Laugh-In and all the movies that that led to. It allowed you to become sort of panoramically famous with a huge Q rating and all that stuff without letting it swamp you the way it does so many other people. Exactly. So we know if you're able to actually decipher your reality in a way that makes you neither this nor that, because that's kind of what it is.

You know, you're an entity, you're full of energy, you are who you are. I had a wonderful upbringing, just so you know, I had a father who was extremely philosophical. I had a good start, which is important where parenting is concerned and so forth. But on the other side, sometimes you're thrown into the ocean and you don't know where you're swimming and you don't know what it means. And then fear takes over and suddenly you're afraid and I'm not a competitive person,

right? I didn't feel like, oh, so-and-so got that part and why didn't I? And all that stuff. I think that I kind of left my vernacular because the I part of it is something that I own and I belong to. But that doesn't mean I'm the best person. It doesn't mean that I'm the one that should be doing that role. That means that someone else chose somebody else. And that was their opinion. And I respected that. It sounds a little bit like, you know, oh my God, you know, but it's what I learned and how it's important to have family, to have your friends, to have, and don't hold grudges and these kinds of things because you can't control everybody at all. I just went on my way, did what I wanted to do. I wasn't worried about people's and these kinds of things, because you can't control everybody at all.

I just went on my way, did what I wanted to do. I wasn't worried about what people said. I just figured if I had good intention, that's all you need to have. So it was like. You were talking about how you didn't, in this incredibly competitive industry, you weren't feeling a ton of jealousy,

and it reminded me of this thing I heard Sharon Salzberg, the great meditation teacher who I'm sure you're familiar with, I once heard her say this thing, that the lie at the heart of jealousy is that the thing that somebody else got was somehow heading to you. And the other person intercepted it. But in fact, you were not part of that situation most of the time. And if you can take yourself out of it, it can relieve you of a lot of unnecessary suffering. Exactly. And fear, because fear is a really important part of status. So if you're fearful

that you don't have the status that you had, or that someone is speaking ill about you, or it's gonna bring you down in some way, then you can't be productive. You're totally focused on what you don't have, and then you point fingers. I mean, there's just so many things that lead to retribution, being unable to forgive. I mean, there's a whole litany of symptomatic, not just behavior, but emotional contagion

around that feeling. So she's right, you know, it's always like somebody else is going to get more than you do. You probably know this, but so science research that was done many years ago is that no matter how much money you have or where you are in your neighborhood, if somebody has five cents more than you do, then it's going to create your imbalance of having to get and jump that to trump that. And then that will make you feel better. When in fact, these are all these material things that you want in the psyche. We talked about the hedonistic treadmill. I mean, if I could just have that, I'd be happy. If I could just get this job,

it would be the greatest thing in my life and it would lead me to the next job. And I see all I need to do is that. How do I compete with this? And I just don't have that gene, I guess, or the, I didn't have it. I mean, people were funny, they got roles and things that I probably could have done. But I guess I just looked at myself as my father would look at me or my mom. And that's the way I saw myself. So even now, all these years later, is there nothing in your life that pisses you off in an abiding fashion where you have trouble getting over it? Yes, there have been very few, very few. One of the areas is with my children, for instance, they made mistakes, they did stuff, they were teenagers.

I got mad and I felt that they had to treat people well, that they had to be humans that cared. I don't care if you spill milk, just as an example, as a silly example, or have a party in the house when daddy's not there, or the fact that they lied to somebody, that's when I get it. That's when I get angry. And I look at some people's behavior and I'm astonished. So when we look at behavior,

especially when behavior is done with you, and I won't be specific on this, but there have been moments where I feel, where was their honor? How couldn't they have just mentioned this to me early? Why is it if we could get along that way, then there are no mistakes. And why can't people say they're sorry? There's so much health and joy and wisdom in being able to say, I'm sorry. These are the things that I wish that we had today. I wish we had the ability to say, I'm sorry. I'm curious getting back to your meditative career. You mentioned Transcendental Meditation, and then Thomas Merton, who's the Catholic theologian who was very interested in

exploring Eastern spirituality. Who along the way were the other big influential teachers for you? Well, first of all, I met John Kabat-Zinn many, many, many years ago. And I had a transfer relationship with him because he is a brilliant, amazing human. And his humanity is one of the things that actually I was the most engaged with. I spent time with him in India at some of the conferences in India and Dharamsala with His Holiness the Dalai Lama and a lot of scientists. So we went a lot to that. And he was an extraordinary human. And he's able to, I guess, when you have a contagion, which I use that a lot because I think we get a lot from that, especially negative contagion. But at that point, he really looked at me and he had so much love in his heart that it was

one of those things that I just entrained with him. So he's one, but then there are others. I'm interested in Sufism and where their meditative states come in. And I'm also interested in neuroscience because neuroscience has also been my teacher. Because when you know, you know what's going on in your brain, then you actually understand what's happening in the form of meditation of whatever kind you do is that it actually strengthens your cortex and the corpus callosum, you know, that goes between the left and right brain. And what an experience to know that is. I remember when Richie Davidson and one of the monks that I know, who's amazing, did this MRI. Okay. The MRI was putting him in a heavily meditated state. And what came out of Ritchie's research was all the benefits that actually

happened during that time. He was inside the fMRI and was on the cover of Time magazine. And this is when I looked at this and thought, this is amazing. I mean, the fact that we can put meditation together with science and understand the correlation of a healthy brain, of a balanced brain, and an ability to actually critically think appropriately. We're building so much, these assets that we have as humans. And then after it was that week, was gone. Suddenly was gone.

And I'm thinking, okay, this is groundbreaking. The power of meditation is groundbreaking. What it does is something we should all be talking about today. So this has got to be about 18 years ago, maybe, maybe more. I never heard about it again until I finally said to myself when we could talk about mind up, but that part is left in a Petri dish. We're leaving too much information in the walls of universities and Petri dishes, and no one is pulling them out to utilize them for the greater good. So that was the beginning for me to understand there are a lot of teachers that we can go to, we can read about. Buddhism is one of them. I spent a lot of time understanding Buddhism because it was the road to happiness. And that's all I cared about at that

time. How do you take everything, all what's bothering you, all the areas of understanding, and then when you finally get that, then it all just looks like just happiness. And for me, that was the most interesting of my journeys because it was cognitive. It wasn't just that you'd left your body, your mind drifting and going into another space, which was gorgeous, but it's also about cognition. And once we cognitively engage with these positive effects and basically implement them, then how are we using the science that we already know and offering it to everybody else outside of the Petri dish. This is one of the areas when you talk about, well, who taught you how did this work? By my

own example, I had a mantra that was His Holiness gave me. It was green Tara. That was my mantra for, I think, most of the time since I've known him. And I also sometimes when I'm quieting my mind, I will go back to my TM because it's not quite as, you know, so much. Right. But I think that that particular part was the most interesting to understand more about focused attention. And one of the things that brought me so much joy when I would have, now this is just imagery, this is not idolatry, okay?

And basically in the path, if you will, the Buddhist path, they actually have different, you know, for instance, taras. They have red tara, they have green Tara, they have white Tara. And each one stands for another state of mind, another way of being. So if you meditate on your Tara, let's say mine was green, I could image in my own mind, and I've got my pictures everywhere, but I can see her in my mind. Every piece of her, every curly cue, every nose construction, the mouth, the way the mouth went. And when I would do that as my meditation, I would get this lump in my throat. I wanted to cry, but it was tears of sadness. I wanted to cry, but it was tears of sadness. It was tears of joy.

That's when I realized that I was only focused on one thing, and it cleared me out to find my happy soul again. This is a personal experience. This doesn't happen for everybody. Everybody, people have a different kind of experience, but that was mine. I got filled up. It was extraordinary.

And then there's tonglen, which is another experience where you bring in all the sorrows of the world and the sickness of the world. It's another meditation. And with that, you transform that darkness into light. And now you can push it out into the world in your own consciousness. So I would feel that light inside of my body right around my heart chakra. And I felt so happy, so good, like I'm giving something back. I'm trying to transform all the negative energy I can into more positivity. Now look, whether that happens doesn't happen. We're refining our own state of mind. And I think the brain takes note of that. Because when you have a happy heart, your brain feels it. When you are experiencing stress, your heart feels it.

So reducing the stress and being able to really focus in on some of these things that make you feel better. Because here's how I think. If we don't do this for ourselves, then we're not looking away from the state of the world. We aren't noticing what's really going on. So to become aware, to become empathetic, to understand, and to understand how to take care of yourself, actually if everyone could do that, we probably would have a kinder world. You will find no disagreement from me on that score.

You mentioned a couple of different types of meditation. I'd love to drill down on that on both of them. Tonglen, let's start with that. That is a Tibetan Buddhist practice where, as you described, you kind of breathe in the sorrows of the world and breathe out compassion or benevolence. And the point is not necessarily, and I'm echoing you here, to have some sort of concrete effect in the world.

This is a little bit different than petitionary prayer and the Abrahamic faith where you're actually hoping that God will intercede and make some sort of change here in our earthly realm. This is more, at least as I understand it, about changing your own mind, boosting your own capacity for compassion so that you can be more effective in the world. Does that track with your understanding? It does, but I will say this is that there are many things to do in order to get your brain and your soul feeling good, and one of them is God. How do you define God?

I'm interested in that because for God, and even just the Word of God, can actually bring people some peace and some joy. So I don't think we need to necessarily say I'm knitted with a God consciousness. But I will say that my feeling about aspects of belief is also a feeling of belonging. And we as humans need to feel we belong more. And there's something greater than us. And I think it's humbling. I think it's humbling.

I think it feels good. And if God is what your path is, then as long as it's clear that it isn't against anyone else, and it doesn't make you better than anyone else, that there is an equal amount of ways to be able to say, I believe. I believe in God, I believe in energy. And I read a book called, Why God Doesn't Go Away. And the other one is, The God Part of the Brain.

There were these two books that I read that I thought were fantastic. What they're learning is, where is that part of the brain that we're hardwired for God? Because we are. Go back to the agrarian days. Go back to earlier than that. There was always some level of belief system because our brain is set up for that.

It's not because we choose to, you know, we can choose to do whatever you want to do, but the idea that it's also hardwired somewhere up here in the pituitary, up in this area of the head. These are wonderful books to read because God and the concept of spirit isn't going away. What we're not doing is paying enough attention to it. You have a line, you wrote a memoir called A Lotus Grows in the Mud, and you have a line, speaking of God, from that book that I want to read to you and maybe get you to talk about on the other side.

The line is, you know that feeling just before you're going to laugh? That thing where you get all bubbled up, it's like a bubble of laughter, but it hasn't come out yet. That's what God feels like. It's a feeling of joy and love and well-being. Right. So my daughter, Katie, was like six, and she asked me one day when I came into her bedroom. She said, Mom, is God my cousin? I was a big one. And I'm thinking, okay, how do I answer this? But I couldn't answer it. But I said, yes, God is everywhere. I mean, could be your cousin. I don't know. But here's how I think you should understand God. And this was off the top of my head,

by the way. You know that feeling, that feeling just before you're going to laugh, but you haven't laughed yet and it's all tickly inside? That's what God feels like. It's better to talk about what God feels like than what God is. And when you have that feeling, you'd know that you're very close to a feeling, a God-like feeling. I have that feeling when I'm meditating. I don't call it God, but I know that there's order out there in the universe. I don't know it. I feel it. And I think that thought, prayer, it's been known that prayer actually does reach people

because thought is energy. And therefore, why not? The experience, the notion of God is very personal. What do you make of agnostics slash atheists, although I guess I'm more of an agnostic like me. Are we missing out on something if we don't have a concept of God? I mean, to each his own, right?

So I would say I don't know, because I am a believer in things that I don't even know about right now, meaning that it's what I love about life. It's what I don't know, what I will eventually learn, because I'm constantly searching. eventually learn because I'm constantly searching. But from my perspective of what I understand, what I feel when I'm in this place of, I wouldn't call it reverence, I would call it interconnectedness, okay? It's extraordinary. But it doesn't have necessarily God in there. Okay, so this is what I'm saying, is that if you don't believe in God or you believe when we die, that's it. You will by nature need to find your points of joy. And what I like is that I like that I could reach down in my heart and even imagine it and access a happy heart, a connected heart, a heart that cares. So there's other ways to get

that. And that for an agnostic or atheist, they will find their ways. And if they don't or they never have that extraordinary feeling of endless joy, then I would say maybe they aren't missing out on that. Coming up, Goldie Hahn talks about a scientific experiment she and Kurt Russell took part in that convinced her of the power of prayer and what she thinks is one of the key ingredients to a successful long-term relationship. Alice and Matt here from British Scandal. Matt, if we had a bingo card, what would be on there? Oh, compelling storytelling, egotistical white men and dubious humour.

If that sounds like your cup of tea, you will love our podcast, British Scandal, the show where every week we bring you stories from this green and not always so pleasant land. We've looked at spies, politicians, media magnates, a king, no one is safe. And knowing our country, we won't be out of a job anytime soon. Follow British Scandal wherever you listen to your podcasts. Have you ever imagined what it would be like to see the newly built Duomo towering above you in Renaissance Florence? To feel the spray of Caribbean waters on your face as you sail into the pirate port of Nassau. I'm Matt Lewis, host of the Echoes of History podcast, and if like me you want to get a taste

of time travel into the worlds of Assassin's Creed, join me every week as we explore the real life stories and events that inspire the locations, the characters and the storylines of this legendary game franchise. We'll be talking to historical experts to uncover the secrets of the past before stepping into the animus to delve into how these moments are recreated. So whether you're a history fan, a gamer or just someone who loves a good story, Echoes of History has something for you. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by HistoryHit, wherever you get your podcasts. Before we head back into the interview, just want to remind you about the Meditation Party retreat coming up on October 11th. Eomega.org to sign up. Also wanna remind you about the new feature

over on the 10% Happier app, where you can do a monthly check-in and get a personalized meditation plan. You mentioned a few seconds ago that you're constantly searching. What do you think is driving that constant search? Just curiosity. It's like curiosity of why I feel the way I feel.

Or when I was, why did I have panic attacks? Where I, you know, I had to go meditate or do something before I did a, when I was seen. I mean, I'd got back in my little dressing room and went to get on my couch. I want to know why. I want to know why these things change things. I'm interested in looking at phenomenon and asking, is this really phenomenon or is there something at work here? Kurt and I did an interesting

experiment. We went to a place that does a lot of research at San Francisco, it was created by an astronaut. Anyway, we went in there because I was doing a documentary on joy some 20 years ago. And the joy documentary was only there to remind people that we might be missing a very important part of life because I saw traveling to India and everything, people had nothing, but they were much happier than the people in the West. So we went to this place, Kurt and I, and I was doing this documentary on joy and I was interested in meeting someone.

Well, it turns out that they did an experiment with us, which they're doing all kinds of experiments with what we call non-local communication. I was fascinated. So Kurt went into a little cabin inside of a room, but it was hermetically sealed. He had on a heart monitor, you know, the thing they put on your finger and that took measure of heartbeat. He said, sit in this chair, which was a very comfortable chair. He had a sort of in-circuit TV and there was basically a camera right in the corner. And he said, whenever you think of Goldie, just look up at the camera. They took me to a room down the hall, around

the corner and whatever, and put me in a place where it had an in-circuit television. And every time that it went to Kurt, I saw it, and it was all random. And I saw that, I would say in my mind, I'm seeing you, I love you, I'm here, I hope you know I'm with you." And then it would go off. And then when it came on again, I would then reiterate the same thing. And I noticed that oftentimes when I did that,

he would look up at the camera. So after it was over 83 percent of the times that my camera was on, he looked up at the, 83%. And then I noticed that they kept the camera on him at one point and he fell asleep. And I thought, well, he looked up and then he just dozed off. And I said, although he can sleep while I'm talking,

by the way, it's like, Kurt, are you sleeping while I'm talking to you? But what we learned was is that from their research, when someone feels someone else from far away and they're praying or thinking of you or whatever, you can catch that. And what happens is your blood pressure goes down and you actually can doze off, which is what he did, and his blood pressure did go down. Not that he has high blood pressure. But my point is, he became calm because there was some person, something, the energy that took that from him, and he just went on. And they said, this is proving,

we're trying to prove not telepathy, but an understanding of why does prayer help people? Prayer helped me with my son. You know, I'm not religious, per se, person. But what happened was when he was born, my son Oliver, I mean, he inhaled meconium, and he had a 40% chance to live. And this is my first baby. So they wheeled me in to see him in NICU,

and there he was lying there. He was 11 pounds, so he was very big baby. And I looked at this gorgeous baby. I swear to God, I felt like it was my arm on that slab of metal and all the heat lamps and little things in his head and his breathing and all this stuff. So I did this crazy thing. I decided that I was going to pray over him.

I put my hand over his little chest and I can't explain this feeling, but I emptied strong feeling of just floating. And I asked God, please use me to heal my baby. Please let me be the conduit to your healing. And I watched his heart rate go up. I watched this happening and I called the doctors in. And he had a too low a heart rate and it started climbing incrementally. And with that, they came around and they said, my God, Goldie, they said, mothers can heal

their children and so can prayer. And from that on, Oliver got better and better and better. This was 40% chance of living. I believe that there are things we don't understand. And yes, I use the word God because God meant whoever you are, wherever it is, if it's energy, just please use me. I'm a hollow entity right now. When you talk about curiosity, when things happen to you and you don't understand why, that makes me curious to know answers. I don't know if I'll ever get them, but it keeps me fascinated.

What is your meditation practice like today? How often do you do it? How long? What's the specific practice or set of practices? Every now and then I will sit, okay? And I fall right in. It goes as quickly. Sometimes I am so working on my program,

working on things during the day, that we can make all kinds of excuses not to sit. But what I do is I don't sit for 20 minutes. I mean, I do, I have, my God, you know, but I also take five several times a day. I'll sit there. Sometimes if the tension is too much around the table when we're eating dinner, I'll just go to the bathroom and take a break. I will have a quiet time for myself and a meditative time. The research, which I'm really excited about is whether you do 20 minutes in the morning or 20 minutes in the evening, if you actually do five increments, four

times a day, it actually is very good for you. So in, in order to get handle of your day and how it works, the brain begins to entrain to that experience. So you're actually giving yourself this time five times a day when you do a little bit when you get up and five minutes when you have to lunch and five minutes here and another five minutes before you go to sleep or just get ready for it. Not before you go to sleep, but just in the evening before. That research actually has been amazing, which is one of the reasons why we'll talk about it, but we have that in the classroom.

It's not five minutes, it's three times a day for three minutes. So for you, it sounds like you may or may not get to some formal longer sit during the course of your day, but the stopping down repeatedly has a really positive cumulative effect. It does, it does. And I like it because what happens is,

is that once again, we can do our 20 minutes, which is very powerful. I'm not saying that's not good. It is good. You can do it for an hour if you want. But I think to be continually measured during your day, then literally your brain goes, oh, I know where we're going.

So you're habituating this far more during the day than you would just an early morning moment or an evening moment. It doesn't mean you can't do that. And I think it's really what's been measurably empowering. This is a way to actually train your brain to return back to its homeostasis, to where it belongs. You mentioned taking a break in the middle of dinner if things are stressful around the table.

You've been able to maintain a romantic partnership with Kurt Russell for, by my math, more than 40 years. Is meditation part of the secret to that longevity and what other secrets might there be? So, I mean, personally, I think that you have to want to be married. I don't think meditation can help you. Because circumstances are important, and if the circumstances are not palatable and you can't be in them or you're in a relationship with a person who's narcissistic or has some issues around that, then you have to make decisions. And maybe in meditation you actually get the decision

when you quiet your mind. What you don't want to do is be in a relationship where all you do is ruinate how terrible that person was to you and what you think you deserve. But I would give it a whirl to be able to practice enough of your own practice, not for him or her, but for yourself. And if you practice for yourself, the outcome may be more clarity, may be more compassion, may be more ability to forgive,

and may be more of an ability to actually witness the other person and forgive them because sometimes they can't change. We can't always change, but we can manage, monitor, and become aware. You know when people say, well, they don't change their spots, but we can rearrange them. Right? So that's kind of the way I look at it. And you know, sometimes when somebody pops off and does something or you don't agree on stuff, that can inflame you.

But you got to say, hey, wait a minute. I don't think the way they do. So in this idea of separation of you and your partner is important because you can't become your partner, nor should you, but you can be more tolerant over their perspectives. Joseph Goldstein, who's a meditation teacher that I've worked with closely for many years has this little expression that's coming to mind as you're speaking which is don't side with yourself. I love that. I love that. You already know yourself. Be who you are. But the whole idea of that is so great because it really does, that's part of the problem. Nobody thinks they're wrong. Hardly to admit they're wrong, particularly in religion,

politics, these kinds of things are very dangerous. It's very dangerous. This is my perspective. It's okay. It's not yours. Hold on to yourself and your ideas, but don't defend them. And in a marriage, I know technically you and Kurt aren't married, but in a long running romantic partnership, to be able to ask yourself the question, well, why does that person see things that way? There must be some rationale rather than just going straight to anger or condemnation or contempt it's very helpful. It's very very helpful i think there are hardwired things that they can actually work on but everybody has a different kind of upbringing when you're dealing for some politics okay. politics. Okay. I had an upbringing that was pretty apolitical. You know, we didn't discuss politics very much when I was little. Mom, I think was a Democratic. Daddy may have been a Republican at some point. I forgot who voted for Eisenhower. But nobody, it was never a

point of contention. That wasn't one of my things. I'll vote anyway I want and will continue to. But the other person may be grown up with a very arched conservative perspective and then that's how you grow up. I think that these are things we should think about rather than blame. I think the mental health right now we have to talk about. But in terms of just looking at it like clean without looking at I want to belong to this group because I don't know what group I belong to so I'm going to feel better when I get to be that or I get to be that. That's different. But in terms of just understanding how they grew up, it's really important. So you can have a clear critical look at how this is happening

rather than why is this happening. Coming up Goldie talks about her work at Mind Up and her recommendations for getting kids started with mindfulness. Hello, I'm Hannah. And I'm Saruti. And we are the hosts of Red Handed, a weekly true crime podcast. Every week on Red Handed, we get stuck into the most talked about cases. From Idaho student killings, the Delphi murders, and our recent rundown of the Murdoch saga. Last year, we also started a second weekly show, Shorthand, which is just an excuse for

us to talk about anything we find interesting because it's our show and we can do what we like. We've covered the death of Princess Diana, an unholy Quran written in Saddam Hussein's blood, the gruesome history of European witch hunting, and the very uncomfortable phenomenon of genetic sexual attraction. Whatever the case, we want to know what pushes people to the extremes of human behavior. Like can someone give consent to be cannibalized? What drives a child to kill? And what's the psychology of a terrorist? Listen to Red Handed wherever you get your podcasts

and access our bonus short-hand episodes exclusively on Amazon Music or by subscribing to Wondry Plus in Apple Podcasts or the Wondry app. In April 1912, the luxury ocean liner RMS Titanic embarked on her maiden voyage from Southampton, England en route to New York. Spirits were high, but as the ship sailed into the frigid waters of the North Atlantic, danger was lurking. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondry's podcast American History Tellers. We take you to the events, times, and people that shaped America and Americans, our values,

our struggles, and our dreams. In our latest series, we'll take you to the early hours of April 15, 1912, when the Titanic strikes an iceberg, 2,200 passengers and crew are left scrambling for the lifeboats and their lives. Follow American History Tellers on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge this season of American History tellers on the Titanic early and ad free right now on Wandery Plus. So you made a real pivot about 20 years ago, you still act, but a big chunk of your time is dedicated to an organization called Mind Up,

which brings meditation to children. Why did you make that pivot? Okay. First of all, now let's see how this, I can say this. First of all, let me just say this. I am not bringing meditation to the classroom. I am bringing neuroscience to the classroom. Because to me, the road in is to teach children about three parts of their brain, which is the emotional system of the brain. Kindergarten through eighth grade, people said, you'll never do it, you can't do that. And then I was doing three times a brain break a day.

And I call them brain breaks. I don't call them meditation. Because back then when I started, it was a mitigating force of getting into schools or understanding how this could work in Swiss school children. So that's called a brain break. And that was my coin that you'll hear it bother people, but that's what I coined it 20 years ago. So just in clarity, it's mindfulness, it's becoming more mindful, all based in neuroscience. So everything in that product, mind up, that product is about everything you do correlates to neurological connection. So they know that when they give a gift, what's happening in their brain.

We teach them neuroscience for a reason. It gives them cognition to having their brain breaks. They get to know how to manage their emotions because they realize that the amygdala is basically out of sorts and the prefrontal cortex has just gone offline. And they can't think. So they're learning how to self-regulate. And this is the area because if we don't give context and cognition, cognitive ways of understanding, what's going on in my brain? What's happening? That's why I did this. But I did it because I wanted children to be happier

and healthier. I did it after 9-11, being very concerned with what was happening with children during a time that I felt at least then that the world had changed forever. So I took everything I learned on my happiness documentary about the brain, about where we are, and I created a panel of experts to create MindUp, taken from the original happiness. to create mind up, taken from the original happiness. We went into, and I did this in Vancouver, B.C. At that point, we went ahead, created this program, and then it started to be researched because I would not go out anywhere without positive research that this actually worked. And what happened was there is this woman came back's Kim Schoenert-Reichl, an amazing research scientist at University of British Columbia. And she came back to me and said, Goldie, this is insane.

I've been doing these programs for 20 years. And this was 20 years ago. And she said, I've never seen research like this for 12 weeks. And it was a 10 lesson program at that time, we had children that slowed way down aggression, way down. Kids worked better in the classroom. 83% said they could make themselves happier now. They were talking about English and math.

Scores went up. The teachers were out of their mind, could not believe their ability to self-manage their emotion. So when the children really understand the basis and the foundation of how they think, feel, and become overly emotional, they're learning now how to breathe and focus and do their brain break because they know that the amygdala, which is like a barking dog, goes back into the doghouse and now the prefrontal cortex opens up. Now I can think better, analyze better, create better, remember better, and all of these things actually have context to them. It's a story that they can tell themselves. Then we did another research,

and then another research, and we're one of the most researched programs out there because I want to find out more. I want more information. So now what we're doing is, and we have done part of it, we're going to do the other part of it now, is basically an epigenetic study. So how does three times a brain break understanding the brain, doing positive psychology, threading it through your day so your day becomes an optimistic day, it becomes a positive day, it becomes a great learning day. How does it affect your genetics? What has come back so far is unbelievably, I mean, my whole board just cried.

If we can prove with other research that this actually can change the expression of our children's genetics in a way that is positive, then we need to look deeper at how we are educating our children to be able to give them preventative mental health program that will actually do for their health as well as their mind and their mental health. So I could keep going when it comes to researching. We're researching now, we're something that we're doing in New York City and that is we have got a deal there in New York City and we're working with the kids in schools, but these are neurodivergent children. How is it working with them? And one of them in the class had autism. He was a non-speaker.

He could not speak. He was obviously non-verbal. And then in fourth grade, he's now speaking and so forth and surely quite autistic. But he was asked by the principal now and he's doing mind up, would you like to come up and ring the bell? We're going to do our morning mind up brain break. He said, yes. He goes up there and she was so blown away,

she called the office. This little boy not only rang the bell, but he led the entire brain break. He remembered everything. Sit quietly, put your hands in your lap, rest in the chair, Sit quietly, put your hands in your lap, rest in the chair, take a deep breath in, let it out. She said I was in tears. What I'm getting at is that when we can prove that mental health preventative programs in our classrooms starting at an early age, we will then be able to give children a gift of a lifetime. Also potentially have an impact on the course of history because we, so many of our problems these days are the result of the amygdala. I mean,

they've always been. We've always had trouble managing our emotions as a species, but now we have nuclear weapons and a planet that requires global cooperation in order to solve massive problems like nuclear weapons and climate change, etc., etc. And so if we can't get over ourselves, it's going to be a big problem. Yeah. Yeah. I know.

I mean, this is back 20 years ago. You know, the other part of that discovery for me is that I started looking at the state of mind of children after I thought, bring them happiness and good positive psychology, make them happy, you know, that. When I really ripped into gear, my heart ripped into gear because I saw the 10-year-olds to 15-year-olds was the third leading cause of death. And I said, wait a minute. Okay, I got to put this in my mind.

You mean children aren't taking their lives and they're so mad, and their medication is flying again. And now we have all this other stuff, which is 15-year-olds and then looking at the other suicide of our babies. And I said, what could be so horrible in their life? They need to have a childhood. What is creating this stress? So these are the things that put me into gear to try to find out more.

And now today, more than ever, this thing I remember saying back then, don't turn a blind eye to this mental analyst, because it could grow if it's not taken seriously. And here we are. Here we are. And everybody now is going, well, how do we do, and what do we do with this, and how do we handle it? And no one really has an answer. I mean, more nurses is not the answer. More band-aids, which God bless them. I'm not putting it down. I'm just saying, we've got to really think about what and how we're teaching our kids. They go home and teach their parents, by the way, on how to calm down. I'm heartbroken because no one knows what to do.

I'm heartbroken because no one knows what to do. And that I think is that we just got out of hand and no one was looking back in the day when these symptoms were starting to become present and that we're aware of them. But it keeps me going because I know that if we fight hard enough and educate more that this can do some good for some of our children. I mean, I said, if this helps 10 people, Goldie, if I just have to do this to see if we can do that and if that's enough, I don't know, because this is before I had the sole organization. But I did it because I just felt if I could help 10 kids maybe that would be something. Now it's several million.

But the truth is, and we're global, so you know we also have schools in Shanghai and Hong Kong and whatever, but my point, and I'm not taking that lightly, it's hard to, what do you call it, crack that nut. A while ago when I was first bringing up the subject of mind up, I misspoke and said you're bringing meditation into schools and you very gently, politely, diplomatically corrected me to say that it was more neuroscience and mindfulness. Is there a reason for that specificity? Has there been some pushback from parents about meditation somehow being linked to Eastern spirituality and don't voice that on my kid? That was early days, but I've corrected that because we're based in neuroscience.

And the reason I want to base in neuroscience and not meditation is for that very reason. And by the way, meditation has been proven in some schools that they did. There was a big study they did in the UK and they did this with our adolescents. It didn't work. The research around it didn't show any benefit. So that's why cognition is important. It's why we substantively put in the whys, the wherefores, and the reasons. That's why every trainer that we have that they ask, why am I doing this exercise? Sounds kind of lightweight. No, no, you're activating parts of the brain that actually need to activate it every day. So this is how we're changing a developing brain. These little brains are developing, they're in construction, and it's very important that we inf fill those brains with the right things.

And our educators also, we're working all through New York City, are loving this because they actually can control their classrooms more. And for them, it's helping them becoming better listeners and more patient. You know, you drop a stone down in the pond and it's going to make ripples. And without looking at it like, I'm going to change the world and blah, blah, blah. I'm just helping. Just helping. So those ripples will go out.

And each child that basically had mind up will actually be affecting a lot of other humans along the way. So that's the way I look at it. And also that's the answer to your question. Mindfulness was a terrible thing back in the day because whatever you do, you know, don't use mindfulness. Well, in fact, I used to ask the kids, do you know what mindfulness means? And they said, no. And I asked them in the classroom, do you know what mindless is? And they all went, yay. classroom, do you know what mind less is?" And they all went, yay! So we want to get mindful. We want to bring the world into an idea of saying, just like the mom

says, be mindful of the step, be mindful of this, be mindful of yourself, be mindful of the person next to you, be mindful of your ability to have an innate sense of happiness and joy because you own it. A question that I get all the time, I'm curious, you I think have way more standing to answer this question as somebody who's worked with children and also somebody who's a mom herself.

Parents ask me all the time, how do I get my kids to do this? I'm curious, what do you say to parents out there who are interested in getting their kids interested in meditation or mindfulness or neuroscience, whatever you want to call it. Well it depends on their age first of all I mean you can start them young by lying down with mommy and putting a basically breathing understand the breathing we can also do things like

what I do with my kids which is when you talk to me can you look in my eyes because I'm listening. So there are ways that you can bring them calm. That's number one. But when you start to understand how to do this, the kids go home and they teach their parents, right? So the parents will say, you didn't, you need to take a brain break. When you take a brain break, then ultimately here's what's happening to your brain. And you'll be able to think better. And this is a way when you actually can sit quietly with them for two

minutes. There's no meditation here. Our brain's going to take a little break. You can put on a little music, you can do a little thing, and you can breathe with them because breath is everything, as you know. When you took a nice slow breath through your nose and out through your nose, you can do that with them. And then you can talk about how calming that was. Didn't that feel good? And so you do this with your parents. That you don't send them away to do it. The parents have to do it too. Because you're mirroring for your children.

That's what we do. They look at us and that's what they do. So it's basically a choice and a practice that you guys can do and you don't have to do it every day. Go slow with the children. So you understand that that's something that mommy and or daddy and we do together. And that's three minutes.

That's kind of the way to do it. And then you get them slowly involved and as they get older. So I guess it's just sort of experiential as well. These brain breaks are so simple that anyone can do them. But what happens is, and I see this oftentimes, that there's confusion around. But you don't need to confuse, just need to breathe through your nose and out.

If you want a little chime, which is really great because the brain attaches to that sound, right? So you can just do the chime and listen to it as long as you can until you can't hear it anymore. So what that does is it gives this little tone that you get to follow and your brain gets to follow that tone and it automatically sort of quiets them down. And then you breathe for another minute and a half and you're done. So it's this nice habit, and it's extremely, extremely important.

Is there something you were hoping to get to in this interview that we didn't get to yet? I mean, this has been so much fun to talk to you. I just wanna make sure that we hit everything that was in your mind. As we're talking about MindUp, I would like to be able to say that we are at mindup.org. So anyone who wants to learn more about it,

the more parents, children, and teachers and school districts have heard this interview, they may be able to just, I think we need this. So if anybody's interested, go to mindup.org. We will put a link to that in the show notes so that people can go check it out. Well, excellent. Thank you so much Goldie Hahn for coming on the show.

I'm glad we finally got you on. I know, I'm so happy. And that's kind of like, I love the name of your show, 10% Happier. And that's 10% of everything. If we can get 10% of all these things, we'd be 10% better. 100% agree.

Oh, Dan, I'm so happy to be with you. Thanks so much. Thanks again to Goldie Hahn. You can visit mindup.org for more information on her program. Thanks so much. make some recommendations on books and movies and things like that. Finally, I want to thank everybody who worked so hard to make this show a reality. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan, and Eleanor Vasili. With additional pre-production support from my old friend, Wan Bo Wu. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our production manager. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer.

DJ Cashmere is our managing producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme. And I should say, Nick's got a new album out. Go check it out wherever you listen to your music. If you like 10% happier, and I hope you do, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music.

Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. Welcome to the Offensive Line. You guys, on this podcast, we're gonna make some picks, talk some and hopefully make you some money in the process. I'm your host, Annie Agar. So here's how this show's gonna work, okay? We're gonna run through the weekly slate of NFL and college football matchups,

breaking them down into very serious categories like No Offense. No offense, Travis Kelce, but you gotta step up your game if Pat Mahomes is saying the Chiefs need to have more fun this year. We're also handing out a series of awards and making picks for the top storylines surrounding the world of football. Awards like the He May Have a Point Award for the wide receiver that's most justifiably bitter. Is it Brandon Iyuk, T Higgins, or Devonte Adams? Plus on Thursdays we're doing an exclusive bonus episode on Wondery Plus, where I share

my fantasy football picks ahead of Thursday Night Football and the weekend's matchups. Your fantasy league is as good as locked in. Follow the offensive line on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can access bonus episodes and listen ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. What's up, guys? It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season. And let me tell you, it's your girl Kiki and my podcast is back with a new season and let me tell you it's too good and I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

Every episode I bring on a friend and have a real conversation. And I don't mean just friends, I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on. So follow, watch, and listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.