Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - How to Avoid the Toilet Vortex of Anxiety | Sebene Selassie and Jeff Warren

Episode Date: September 13, 2024

We also talk about: whether it is possible to be a failed meditator; grief versus mourning; and meditation tips for parents.Sebene Selassie is a writer, teacher, and speaker who leads meditation, creativity, and nature-based practices for personal & collective liberation. Using ancient wisdom and modern science mixed with her own relational and relatable style, Sebene helps spiritually curious people explore the profound and sacred truth of belonging. She is trained as a meditation teacher, an integral coach, a practitioner of Indigenous Focusing Oriented Therapy for Complex Trauma (IFOT), and is a licensed hiking guide in New York State. She has taught classes, workshops and retreats online and in person for almost fifteen years. Sebene is a devoted student of mystic traditions, including astrology, and writes the popular newsletter Ancestors to Elements. Her first book, You Belong: A Call for Connection, is published by HarperOne. Jeff Warren is a meditation instructor and writer, known for his dynamic and accessible style of teaching. He is the co-author of The New York Times best-selling Meditation for Fidgety Skeptics, founder of the nonprofit Consciousness Explorers Club, and co-host of the Mind Bod Adventure Pod. Jeff's Do Nothing Project streams for free every Sunday night on YouTube; his guided meditations reach millions of people through the Ten Percent Happier and Calm apps, as well as through his Substack, Home Base. Jeff’s mission is to empower people to care for their mental health, through the realistic, intelligent and sometimes irreverent exploration of meditation and personal growth practices. As someone with both ADHD and bipolar, he is big on destigmatizing mental health issues, and championing a neurodiverse outlook on life and practice.Tascha Schumann is a Buddhist Lama, writer, visual artist, co-host of The Mind Bod Adventure Pod, and Juno-nominated recording artist whose work has been streamed many millions of times around the world.Related Episodes:How to Stay Calm No Matter What’s Happening | Sebene Selassie and Jeff WarrenMeditation Party: The “Sh*t Is Fertilizer” Edition | Sebene Selassie & Jeff WarrenMeditation Party with Sebene Selassie and Jeff Warren: Psychedelics, ADHD, Waking Up From Distraction, and Singing Without Being Self-ConsciousMeditation Party: Magic, Mystery, Intuition, Tattoos, and Non-Efforting | Sebene Selassie and Jeff WarrenSign up for Dan’s weekly newsletter hereFollow Dan on social: Instagram, TikTokTen Percent Happier online bookstoreSubscribe to our YouTube ChannelOur favorite playlists on: Anxiety, Sleep, Relationships, Most Popular EpisodesFull Shownotes: https://happierapp.com/podcast/tph/omega-826See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to 10% happier early and ad free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey everybody, how we doing? We've got a great episode today. These episodes are some of my absolute favorites. Today we're going to talk to two great meditation teachers, Sabine Selassie and Jeff Warren, who are also very close friends, about a number of issues, including how to avoid the toilet vortex of anxiety, what to do when your meditation gets boring, how to work with judgmentalism

toward yourself and other people, how to be less reactive in a chaotic world, whether it's productive to have goals for your meditation, meditation tips for parents, and much more. What you're about to hear is a freewheeling collection of the best exchanges from a recent weekend- retreat that Seb, Jeff and I have started putting on recently. We call it Meditation Party. We're actually doing another one in October at the Omega Institute, which is north of New York City. There's a link in the show notes if you want to sign up. Anyway, these retreats emerged out of a desire to make the practice of meditation less solitary, to emphasize a part of the practice that is often de-emphasized in an age of individualism

and tech induced isolation, which is being with other people, community. Even if you don't ever wanna go to the event, which is totally fine, I get that actually, I think it is highly possible to get a kind of contact high from hearing us interact with one another and with the audience. Many of you know Seb and Jeff,

but for those of you who don't very quickly, Sebaneh Selassie describes herself as a writer, teacher and immigrant weirdo. She's also the author of a great book called, "'You Belong'." She's based in Brooklyn, New York City. Jeff Warren is also a writer and meditation teacher. He and I co-wrote the book

Meditation for Fidgety Skeptics. He also co-hosts his own podcast, which is called the MindBod and VenturePod. He is based in Toronto. What you're going to hear when we come out of the break here, just a heads up, what you're going to hear after the break is some banter among the three of us, followed by some of our favorite questions from the audience. Just a quick note that you will also hear us reference a fourth teacher who showed up at the party, Tasha Schuman, who's a musician, DJ, and Buddhist lama in the Tibetan lineage. So just prepare your ears for that. We'll start the party right after this.

Listening to Audible helps your imagination soar. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, new ways of thinking. Listening can lead to positive change in your mood, your habits, and ultimately your overall well-being. Audible has the best selection of audiobooks without exception, along with popular podcasts and exclusive Audible originals all in one easy app. Enjoy Audible anytime while doing other things, household chores, exercising on the road, commuting, you name it. My wife Bianca and I have been

listening to many audiobooks as we drive around for summer vacations. We listen to Life by Keith Richards. Keith, if you're listening, I'd love to have you on the show. We also listen to Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari. And Yuval, if you're listening to this, we would also love to have you on the show. So audio books, yes, audible, yes, love it.

There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free 30 day audible trial and your first audio book is free. Visit audible.ca, audible.ca. Alice and Matt here from British Scandal. Matt, if we had a bingo card, what would be on there? Oh, compelling storytelling, egotistical white men and dubious humor.

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Okay, we're back. We're going to start the show. and subscribe to Armchair Expert on YouTube. Okay, we're back. We're going to start the show. We begin here with a little banter before we get into some questions from the audience. And in this little section here, you will hear us reference Tasha Schuman, who is a fourth teacher who joined us for the party. Here we go. Enjoy. I love being the dude with the bell.

Tasha, come on in. Why don't you sit there? Somebody brought me a shawl. Yeah. Oh. Woo. Woo. Woo.

When I get cold, I'll put it on. So glad Tasha's here. Why are you so So glad Tasha's here. Why are you so relieved that Tasha's here? Because I have like an intimate witness of what it means to hang out with you two. We save the really bad stuff for offstage. Exactly. Yeah. To the point where she looked at me across the room back there just now and called me a douche. And he said, Yeah, that's exactly what I am. Which really links

into our practice this afternoon of seeing how we are. I also love your podcast. Oh, thank you. Although ours is you. Although ours is better. Although ours is better. She's never listened to the show, she told me at lunch. No, I said I listen to one episode. They're Japanese. Okay. But this afternoon is sort of the focus is, you know, we speak so much about the important,

how meditation really helps us bring into more connection with nature and with each other and and that's true. And what does that really mean? And what gets in the way? I think that's for me been one of the bigger parts of meditation or the revelation for me is all the ways I'm actually not really in connection with things. I think I am, but I'm actually like somebody's right in front of me talking to me and I'm like nodding and I'm really actually listening to my commentary about what they're saying and not really what they're saying or some complete other commentary and And I actually had a quite a dramatic Example of the ways in which we think we're being present, but we're not present Happened for me this morning after we finished our morning session, I did a short meditation. And I sometimes do as a practice, I say,

what's here now that I'm not noticing? Like, what's here now that I'm not noticing? And I just sat and all of a sudden really could feel this. I had had a challenging, I had called my wife Sarah last night feel this. I had called my wife Sarah last night and there was some drama with the kids and I basically been worried all morning about my kids and my family. And it's like sitting in my stomach and I didn't even realize that was happening. I was guiding practice, having conversations, but it was definitely there. And it was kind of informing things and shaping things in ways that I, how comfortable I felt,

the kinds of things I wanted to say in ways that I wasn't even really realizing. I sat down, I realized it. So that's part of what practicing given. So we thought, I'm going to guide a practice kind of around that, about like helping us say, what is here right now that I might not be noticing. a familiar experience to you three, and what are examples of ways in which you don't even, you think you're being present, but you realize you're off in your shtick, and what is the shtick you get stuck in? Yeah, because it might come as a surprise to you,

but we are imperfect humans. So. Well. Like, I'm perfect. No, far from it. And I think, as you were speaking, I was like, what is my shtick? I wasn't calling it that, but that's a great way

to kind of frame it and make it a little lighter, because my shtick is deaf. Because I have metastatic cancer, and because I've come so close to death over and over again, that's the underlying fear that's always rearing itself to me. And I really feel like it is such the core fear of everything, like your children's safety, your family's safety, our fears about failing, our fears about rejection, of being separated from tribe and community and others, is really a fear of our own extinction,

which is the only reality that we actually all share in common. We are all different beings in here, different experiences, different perspective, different opinions, but we're all going to die. Some of us might not get sick, some of us might not get old. We were all born and took a first breath and we'll all die and take a last breath.

And that's really the only common human experience. And so having to face that over and over again as just kind of front of mind is intense. So what does that, I mean, so in the moment to moment, how does that come up for you? What is the experience of it? Is it like a weight that's always in the background? Is it like a distrust of meeting new things? Because what's the point? I mean, what is it front of mind?

Is it literally like a pattern of thinking? You know, it's usually for me, like with you triggered by talking to Sarah yesterday or last night, it's often triggered by my tumor markers or scans or, you know, scans I it is like a big thing for people who deal with chronic illness or, or any kind of diagnoses that that's usually my trigger that starts me spinning. And what I want to do is go into control and try and control my reality. Okay, I'll do this and I'll start going to the acupuncturist more, or see what kind of trial drugs there are,

or kind of fix it, manage place. And my practice is to really be with the feelings themselves, to feel what's happening, and then respond from there, rather than responding from that reactivity. And that's shifted a lot over the years. That's where I see the progress of my practice, actually. How does that come up in a social situation?

Or does it? in a social situation, or does it? You know, it depends. I probably protect myself some, like we all do, in terms of how much I'm willing to open up, but with people that I feel like I can open up with, there'll be grief that comes up, or I can really name my fears. I've been in that situation with you sometimes, so.

But that doesn't feel like a shtick. Well, I like shtick just because it makes it lighter. But I feel like it's what we could call them demons. We could call them our bugaboos. We could call them our shticks. But they're the pernicious patterns that show up for us given the circumstances of our particular lives. Yeah, that's well said.

I don't know, what would you two say are your demon shticks? Bugaboos. Demon shticks. I think for me, you know how I was saying like a half an hour ago that joy is like my secret superpower slash Achilles heel. I'm kind of addicted to joy and that's like, you know, I was like a skater kid playing punk bands and so joy was very uncool and you know, to be joyous, like growing up in

the 90s, no cool person was joyful. So it took me a long time to kind of reclaim that as like this childlike nature that I love to sit in, but that I'm not necessarily being met with. So a lot of times when I'm in social situations, I'm like, my autopilot is like, how can I make more joy? Like I want to make you happy, you gotta smile, you're gonna dance. And so, you know, I think it's a big part of like having been a performer,

it's why I love performing, it's like getting a rise out of somebody, seeing their body move in kind of this really naturalistic way. And I, when I'm out of awareness, I find my body gets really tight in trying to get that rise. Like I'll be like, are we happy yet? Yeah.

So it's like, that's why I say it's like my superpower slash Achilles heel because it's sometimes, I can walk into a room and I can make joy, but I can also go in and get really kind of like taken down by the fact that I couldn't make joy. Yeah. But in other words, that you're not okay with how things are if you're not joyful.

Yeah, exactly. So in other words, you're going not okay with how things are if you're not joyful. Yeah, exactly. So in other words, you're going into a room not neutral, but with an agenda, and you don't even really kind of realize you have the agenda sometimes, and that causes suffering. Hundo P. Hundo P. What about you, Dan?

I mean, name an anchorman and doesn't have a shtick. I mean, that's all masks, you know? Um... I tried to... I've tried, and I mean, the hard thing about shticks is... or masks or whatever, sometimes you don't know, you know? So I've tried to erase the boundary between who I am in public and who I am in private.

But I don't, you know, I'm not perfect at that. Maybe shtick is not the right word. Well, I think we're talking about a couple of different things. You know, we're talking about both what you said, like kind of what our recurring sort of challenges are, or like the ways in which we don't make contact with life, say, because this is the thing that pulls us into worry or pulls us into this pattern. Causes us the most reactivity. And that's a legitimate thing to be exploring. And then I think there's also, in moment to moment, the ways in which we get pulled in we think we're being present

We think we're available to what's here, but we're actually not we're subtly often something like some subtle agenda has taken over That's like beginning to consume our attention and and I think we're talking about that whole continuum, you know, right? I heard something about sort of like roles and masks and like shit. That's where I go with schtick Which seems related to what you're talking about. But if what's pulling me away, it's fear, always anxiety. And fear, fear of what? Because mine's fear too. Yeah. I think yours is the, as you said, the root fear.

Mine probably a little bit, you know, is the, as you said, the root for your mind probably a little bit, you know, up the, what's the Buddhist term again? Dependent origination, mine's a little bit further up the more like failure, not doing well or not, nobody likes me, that type of stuff. But I think you're right, probably death is the root of all that. I just haven't put that together intellectually. In other words, when I get scared, it's not having to do with death consciously. I didn't put it together on purpose.

No, no. I know. Coming up, we answer audience questions on overcoming monotony or what feels like monotony in meditation, working with criticism, both self-criticism and being critical of other people, and how to be more responsive and less reactive in this world. Hey, it's Guy Raz here, and you might know me as the host of How I Built This. Well, did you know about my other show, The Great Creators? It's where I interview some of the most celebrated actors and musicians of our time about their

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to discover meditation that evolves with you. And when you be meditators, I'm gonna ask a really simple question. So sometimes when my mind is really, really busy, I know I need to meditate. It's like one of the Not to be Mission podcast episode says that I have a great relationship with meditation because I think about it all the time.

But when I actually like sit down, I set a timer for like five minutes or 10 minutes and I meditate, I notice a thought comes up and I bring myself back. Then another thought comes up, I bring myself back. Then I eventually realized I was taken away by one of the thoughts. Then the timer went off. Then I'm like, so did I meditate or not? Because I was just lost.

Yes. You did it. Yes. That is meditation. Yes. Yeah. Like perfect description of meditation. I thought you were in my mind for a second.

Oh yeah, there is a teacher. There it is. Yeah. I just feel like you're just gone and then I feel like the majority of my five minutes long meditation was gone in thoughts. Well that one maybe, but who knows how the next one's gonna go. Exactly, and the more practice you get doing it,

the quicker you find yourself coming back from the drifting in general. I mean, it's sort of like law of averages. There's times when you're more busy and more distractible and times when you're more present, but it's the noticing, oh, come back. It's coming back and come back. You remember your awareness is sort of expanding.

You're beginning to notice more of how you are. And we keep emphasizing not judging, because that's such a key part. Because that creates tightness. It creates aversion. It makes us not want to do it again. So really bringing the ease and the kindness and just knowing that's part of the process.

Sometimes I have a little mantra for when I wake up, which is great job, welcome back. And just use it as a little, you know, because I think it was Jeff I heard say once that if you're, if every time you come back, you're greeted by like a hailstorm of disapproval, your mind is not going to, you're disincentivizing the mind from waking up. So force it a little, it feels a little forced, but you can force it with like a great job, welcome back.

That's a great point, thank you. You can keep a little snack beside you. Like every time you come back, you get a little taste of it. Yeah. A little cat treat. Yeah, a little cat treat. You're gonna take too often then. Exactly. Okay, thank you cat treat. Yeah, when I know it's been edited too often, then. Exactly.

OK, thank you. I'm Colleen. I love your podcast, by the way. So. Nice. Nice. Now, I don't want you to say that. You know it's going to happen.

Best question of the day. I hope this isn't just me, but I really, I struggle a lot with like the, when you're sitting and you're trying to get into your body and you're trying to feel what's going on. Cause I'll do that and I'll notice, you know, there's some anxiety and some sadness and I'll try not to have a story around it.

I'll just feel the sensations and then, and then every day is like Groundhog Day, you know? Like I don't look, sit down again the next day and well, look, there't look sit down again the next day and well look there's anxiety and sadness again and so then I feel like I I'm kind of bored with myself because I'm nothing changes there and then when things get really stressful I find that when I should be meditating more I want to do it less

Because I already know it's there and it's not enjoyable. So then I don't know, I feel like I, I know I should just sort of not have a goal, but I'm kind of goal oriented and so that's hard. So I don't feel like, I don't know if it's just me or maybe I've peaked early in my meditation skills. I don't know. Or maybe I'm justaked early in my meditation skill. I don't know.

Or maybe I'm just like Eeyore reincarnated. I'm not really sure, but I feel like I just can't get past that. So then it sort of hinders my desire to keep getting meditating longer. I don't know. Maybe I need to shift something. Hopefully that's not just me. But thank you.

Definitely not just you. Great question, Colleen. Yeah. I'm just curious what, despite all that happening, what is the experience for you doing a meditation? Like how do you feel afterwards? Or do you notice when any difference if you're doing it when that's happening versus not doing it at all? I want to say yes because I think that's probably like a healthy answer but most of the time you know it depends every day is different you know I'm I don't know I I'm somebody that's like always trained for endurance events and and so I feel like I understand

some days are better than others, but there's progress. And I don't really feel like, you know, I feel like I've just sort of stuck. Yeah. Yeah, well, you know, I'll be curious what Seven A says, but sometimes we do get stuck. You know, we are in a kind of plateau, and it's one of those things where sometimes

there's just gonna be a period where you're in a plateau, and part of the practice is accepting this is where I am, and actually when you find you truly accept that you're there, that there is a kind of sameness, that, because what's happening now is clearly you're not accepting it fully, understandably, because you're a little bit impatient with an idea of what you wanna have happen,

or you're bored of how this is so there's some resistance and that can be the very thing that's keeping you where you are You know to sit down and really actually say okay. This is just how it is gonna be yet again I'm gonna actually be trying to be okay with my boredom with my anxiety as it is like Really truly try accept that that can actually sometimes shift a plateau Having said that it can help sometimes to try a slightly different technique. You might be kind of like in a little eddy somewhere. That's why it can be useful sometimes to work with a teacher.

If I were working with you one-on-one, I would kind of play around with you a little bit about noticing different things. Okay, let that anxiety be there. Maybe don't pay attention to it. Don't let it be this object you're paying attention to. Maybe just work with sound over here. Or maybe do a loving-kindness practice, which a lot of us are like, especially the goal-directed try like, ugh, I don't do that. But what would that be like? And so you can kind of shift your focus on a practice a little bit and try something different, and that can

move you out as well. So I mean different kind of options. I mean I would just say in the big picture, you know, there is some experimenting in practice. There's just trying different things and you know you read another book that gives you slightly different perspective on it or you have another guided meditation and you find it just, it can shift something. And when we're so overly instrumental like trying to make the right choice with ourselves, we can overlook. There's a kind of bigger picture quality in which the practice just changes over time. And the more we surrender and let ourselves have the experience we're having, the more it does its work.

But it doesn't look necessarily like that tight linear map that we might, the kind of the more organized mind would hope for. And those are some thoughts. Well, I'm curious what you would. Yeah, I mean, I agree with everything Jeff said. And I just wanna also acknowledge the amount of awareness you have and self-awareness. And to be able to articulate that is already expressing a certain amount of wisdom

and freedom to just know what's there. articulate that is already expressing a certain amount of wisdom and, and, and freedom to just know what's there. So not to discount that even if the meditation as an experience and technique is, it's difficult, you're bringing a lot of self-awareness to it. And I would just really, really strongly echo what Jeff was talking about in terms of working with others, because that really is, as Dan mentioned last night, is something that we discount a lot, the importance of community and reflection and conversation.

Like even now, just talking about the nuances of language and understanding what it is we're doing. And it's to, the reason why I've been questioning goal is because our orientation as a society around that is very effortful. But we're not dismissing intention. We don't all just come here for no reason. We wouldn't spend all this energy and resources

to get here. We have an intention to feel well, to feel free, to feel more joy and love in our lives. And so that can be, you know, our, our, our, our lighthouse for our practice. And that's, that's really helpful. And to be with others who are sort of trying to make their way to the same lighthouse really helps. So do you tend to practice on your own? Yeah, I do, just by myself. And you don't have any kind of community

or conversation connected to it? Mm-mm. Yeah, I mean, for me, I found that, like, changed my practice entirely, to actually meditate with people, to have that reflected back to me, and to also talk about, you know, what's working, what's not working.

And then the only other thing I'd say is that meditation is not a panacea. It's not like the answer for everything. And sometimes if we're dealing with a lot of anxiety or depression or other issues, there are many other tools to use. And I try and use, I say like, it's like a tool belt. You don't want so many that you're just going to like fall over from the weight, but you want kind of

different methods and different techniques for what's needed at the time. And that might be therapy, it might be bodywork, it might be movement. And, you know, don't think that this sitting thing is going gonna cure every ill. Yeah, I was gonna say something about that as well. Anytime there's a chronic thing, like chronic anxiety, chronic anger, chronic depression, chronic, like, some way in which you feel like the energy is stuck, that is often an invitation to look deeper. And there is, we're gonna talk more about working specifically with some of these things this afternoon. Meditation has a role to play big time in that in terms of the trickling down of more equanimity and more clarity around it.

But going and working one on one with someone, I mean for me in my life, to help me work with some of the things that have happened and some of the chronic things, stuck patterns I've felt that meditation hasn't quite gotten to, that's been really helpful. So maybe we'll talk a little bit more about that this afternoon, but it's just to normalize that a lot of people are in a similar position and there are other tools too. Yeah. Thank you very much. Sometimes I think I'm just part squirrel.

Like I don't really. Thank you. Thanks, Kelly. We have another question from the back. A piece of advice I give myself and other people is I'd rather be alone than be with the wrong person. Fortunately, I'm with the right person, so I'm not alone. But I think it's a metaphor for yourself in meditation.

Like, you're alone when you're meditating, but you're with your mind, which may not be the person you wanna be with. So if you have some comment on that. Well, I'll just share something, maybe this is related to us and others, many, many years ago during another presidency, when we were also at war or connected to a war, I was having a lot of issues with George W. Bush.

And I was going to my meditation group with a lot of anger, reading the paper every morning, getting really upset. And a friend there suggested I do metta practice. But I didn't quite know how to do this loving kindness practice for someone I was so kind of contentious with. And I think I heard from a Thich Nhat Hanh book or teaching where he described working with a difficult person by imagining them when they're five.

And I started doing that every morning. I just committed to, I knew that this practice was really about not, understanding that I'm not separate from anything. But I'm also not the same. As you were saying this morning, oneness is not sameness. We're not separate, but we're not the same. And how to deal with that paradox. So I committed to doing a meta practice for George Bush

every morning. And so every morning, I would sit and try and imagine what it was like to be George Bush. But I started in the womb. And I would go through the whole process of like, OK, I'm in a George Bush. I'm in Barbara Bush's womb. But I was really serious about this. And I imagine being born into that family, in that context, going to the schools he went

to, being conditioned by his surroundings, having the nervous system that he had and the addictions he had. And I just, every morning I just committed to this and I'm like, okay, if I was born as George Bush, what would that feel like, you know, why would I go to these schools and I would be this way? And I had an insight, I don't know how long in, it took me a while, I'm slow, but I was like,

oh, I would be George Bush. And it was the shift where I just recognized that my criticism of someone else is because I'm not them. If I lived their exact life, I would be making their exact decisions. And so it really released this contentiousness I had with life in the form of other people. And it also gave me a lot of empathy for myself because I am the way I am because of the conditions I had. And now I'm in this moment and I can work towards

the change I want in the world. And that might mean writing letters or making phone calls or taking actions, but being in contention with how I am in this moment, or how anyone else in this moment is not helpful, thinking that they should be different than they are, is just being against reality, really. And it really took, and I can understand that logically,

but it took that meditation practice for me to really get it internally, and I really try and move through the world like that. I love that. Super beautiful. Thank you. That was well said, so thank you. Hi, I'm Jan.

Hi. And, um, hi. I love fidgety skeptics because it puts both of your voices in why we meditate for the world. So, Jeff, you talk a lot about your mind, your monkey mind, and how it makes you a better person when you understand it, how it comes off to other people. And Dan, you talk about your relationship with Bianca

and how she sees you and your resting bitch face isn't so bitchy, you know. So, I get that we're all here to be better meditators and to be more in tune with ourselves, but really we're here because of the world we live in and how it impacts our life. So I'd like to, and Dan I want more you, like more cowbell, I want more Dan. You have a lot to say. And it's really great because of where you come from and your experiences. And it speaks to how you have evolved as a human being

and how you live in the world, and both of you. And that's what I'd like to hear a little bit more of, why we do this, to understand ourselves, to be in better relationships, to be better at our work, that it doesn't make it soft, it actually makes it stronger and more clear. We're more thoughtful in how we respond to the world rather than be reactive.

Yeah, so thanks. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, so thanks Yeah, thank you I would say for me that the and we've talked about this before on the show, but I Don't know if you know I have a podcast I would say the biggest development in the

more recent years of my meditation career has been I think I'm too related things one is Taking more seriously the loving kindness practice that that you were talking about a moment ago. I And I'll say a little bit more about this later, but I had a very negative reaction to that style of practice, probably because of my conditioning, not probably, certainly because of my conditioning, and also because maybe the practice is objectively annoying, and we'll do it later you can judge for yourself And yet it's a technology that works in my experience and if you believe the scientific research

so that that's One piece that is definitely and I don't think that was true when Jeff and I wrote This book together that that she was referring to meditation for fidgety skeptics I don't think that had happened yet and I and Jeff was a lot of the conversations I remember having with Jeff back in 2017 when we were working on the book He was kind of nudging me in that direction and it wasn't until many years later that I actually heard what he was saying and a lot of it was about that I actually heard what he was saying and a lot of it was about Warming up my own internal weather so that I would not be at war with the various aspects of myself that I didn't like Or wasn't seeing or was not accepting

And then that has in extra ability an impact on how you are with other people I threw Jeff said something either in our meditation last night or tonight or today about Being strict with yourself and I immediately went to yeah Oh, yeah, my that is a thing that I do and then it of course transfers into how I am with other people and so Kind of backing out of that What my friend Evelyn Tribbley calls the toilet vortex, where you're shitty to yourself and then shitty to other people

and because your relationships are so important in how you are, the shittier you are to other people, the shittier you are to yourself and you just go down the toilet and kind of backing out of that downward spiral and not saying I never go there, but having more access to the opposite where you're cooler to yourself and then you have better relationships with people and then you feel better.

So I would say that's the second major development for me is just being very, and it's very much related, being just very deliberate about maintaining and even establishing new relationships. Not only in my meditation circles, though that's, that's very important to me. But, you know, for sure, starting at home with my son and my wife and then really making it a habit to go out and see people all the time. And for a long time I didn't, I think one of the biggest mistakes of my life was not paying attention to that. And you know, I was totally dedicated to my work for many years as a network news anchor,

and then I kept doing that while I added on a whole side hustle of 10% happier. I started an app and a podcast, which I don't know if you know about, but the writing books and blah, blah, blah. And it blotted out the Sun and and for most of my 40s, I basically just That's all I did and and that was one of the that's one of the biggest regrets in my life and so now that I've retired from the news and I Think a big practice for me is I basically say yes to you know a huge percentage of the social Things that come over the transom for me. And really just try to, you know, I just noticed for me that that just adds to my happiness

in huge, huge ways. So that's a long rambling answer to your question. What would you guys say? I mean, I think it's about getting out of your own way so you can better care for life. That's why I'm here. That's what I'm trying to do. I think there's a simplicity and a naturalness to where the practice can bring us, just to be responsive to how life is and have a kind of caring attitude towards it, and that we

get in our own way, you know, of our own stuff. We get so, understandably, for these survival reasons and we get into these kind of patterns and like we can't, we lose touch with that, you know, but that means really caring for everyone, for everyone, people we don't agree with. But we have to do it in our own way. I mean, we were talking a little bit about this this morning. Like, you know, we all have our own assignments. You know, your way in which you're gonna connect to that care and what that's gonna look like

is gonna be different. And the obstacles you'll face in getting there will be different. But there's big similarities too, and there's big areas of overlap, and that's why, in a sense, we're here. You know, meditation kind of offers you a set of tools that are the ultimate area of kind of healthy overlap

of how to show up for yourself and life. But the most basic for me, it's about, I'm here to care for life. Buddhism's very explicit about that. I don't even consider myself a Buddhist, but the Bodhisattva vow, like, which I'm here to discuss, that's, you know, and that includes myself.

And what else am I gonna do in this time? Eat a thousand sandwiches? You know, I may as well just do something cool. So, that's my take on it. Yeah, I'm just marveling on, you know, Dan, you talking about you not being a good friend, basically, and I just experience you as such a good friend. And so just to commend you both for being great dads

and partners and doing this work. What about you? She was asking how the practice shows up in your life. Yeah, I really try and orient to my intention to basically be in my practice and know, you know what that means in terms of having right effort and awareness and Orientation and attitude and radiate that outwards. Like I can't be teaching this or guiding other people

if it doesn't start within me and my social circle and outwards from there. So it's an inside job every day. Yeah. It's funny, all three of us said the same thing basically. Right, just there is this exchange with the world. And it starts and spirals out or radiates out. Coming up more audience questions. Is it possible to be a failed meditator?

How to get out of the toilet vortex of anxiety? The difference between grief versus mourning? And tips on meditation for parents? tips on meditation for parents. What's your name? Hi, I'm Michelle. Michelle? Hi, Michelle. Yes, Michelle.

All right. How are you? I started meditating 30 years ago and decided then that I was a failed meditator. I don't know how many in that room feel the same way. I was struggling with generalized anxiety and depression and I read John Kevitz's book and thought, this is the answer. And I couldn't, I thought,

I just thought I was horrible at it. I couldn't, I thought I just thought I was horrible at it. I couldn't do it. Focusing on the breath just brought back memories of having anxiety attacks. I have to say though, Dan, that the 10% happier one-minute counts kind of is what saved me and led me back in. I found that trying different guided meditations really helps but I guess my question is, does that add to the monkey mind if I have to use a different guided meditation every time to focus? Should the goal be to have you know use one type of meditation and should the goal be longer and longer meditation you know I understand not having an outcome or a

goal but then I also understand it is a practice and we're training the mind so So yeah, basically that. Yeah, that's a great question. The right meditation is the one that works for you. So important, and that can change. And what's working? Some of us have, I'm like, I got a mind that jumps around too. I like to try different practices

and different things work at different times. I like to try different guidances with different teachers. I enjoy that, that jumps around too. I like to try different practices and different things, work at different times. I like to try different guidances with different teachers. I enjoy that. That's my nature. I have a jumping around mind. So I am trying to cultivate the deeper sense of just accepting myself and my life and being more focused in certain ways. But I'm doing it in a kind of relaxed way, working with what appeals to me in the moment. So I think, again, the litmus test is when you're meditating, and whatever way you're meditating, are you feeling better in your life in the way that you want to feel better, more connected, or whatever it is. But hearing all of these options can also be confusing. People are like, oh, jeez, I don't even know where to begin.

I think there's a natural period of expansion and exploring and then just commit to one for a while and see how it lands. And if it feels right to do it for just a shorter time, then you do lots of little short. I think it's more important to do multiple short practices a day or even one short practice a day as opposed to one long one a week.

You're kind of sampling that kind of meditative quality more often. And if you can expand it a little bit, do it a little bit longer, you kind of sampling that kind of meditative quality more often. And if you can expand it a little bit, do it a little bit longer, you can play with that and see. At a certain point, it might just become intolerable. And then the fight to stay in the meditation is becoming counterproductive. I would just add, for me, what's really helped is taking courses to explore one aspect of meditation or one practice or one teaching, because then that helps me kind of have

not a goal-oriented, but sort of a centering of, okay, I'm going to learn this thing and I'm gonna stick to it because I'm experiencing it with this group of people. And it's also an opportunity to ask a lot of questions and hear back from others. And that's one way that I've supported myself in deepening in whatever I happened

to be exploring at the time. Because left to my own devices, I might go off on tangents. Because I too am very interested in a lot of different things. And so that might be something to explore if you haven't. But also now we live in the glorious age of meditation everywhere, of courses, in person, online.

So that might be something to try. Thank you, Michelle. Thank you, Michelle. We have a question right over here. What's your name? Mira. Mira. Thank you.

This is a question about something you said on one of your reels, where, and it relates to the broader idea of mindfulness not as specific to meditation when you talk about your abhagas monkey mind or rumination and you say is this serving me so I right did I get that right close yeah yeah oh can you clear can you say what it is it's not mine it's from Joseph Gaultz is this useful is this useful so my question is is the alternative compartmentalization or is that sort of a bad thing?

And I'm pushing you into a binary of bad and good just to provoke you to nuance it for me. I won't get binary, so it's okay. You can push me as hard as you want. Yeah, so just, eight or nine months ago started, I entered modern civilization and started posting things on Instagram and other places, just little bits of smart stuff that I hear in my life and I just put it out there and so that's what Miro was referring to and I was talking about how Joseph, who I talk about a lot has this little expression which I like a lot is

And it's is this useful which basically means that you might notice that you're in the toilet vortex of anxiety over something and If you wake up in the middle of that the 18th run through of all the horrible consequences of the 18th run through of all the horrible consequences of The dumb thing you said at dinner last night or the meeting tomorrow going poorly or whatever Asking yourself is this useful is a great way to pop yourself out of sort of mindless rote repetition of stress and Perseveration that actually isn't helping you at that time a certain amount of it

Can help I sometimes refer to that as constructive anguish, you know Like there is a certain amount of thinking through and worrying about Planning that makes sense, but at some point we cross the line and This is where I'm gonna refuse to follow into it into a binary There it's really up to you. You know I can't decide for you. What's useful? But you have innately a sense I think of Okay Is it am I getting anything else out of this run-through? Is it am I getting anything else out of this run-through?

And you know it's not Any of these little phrases like is this useful or up and out that's another Joseph ism I don't they're not gonna work now and forever You know so you try it and then the anxiety comes back and then maybe ask the question again. Yeah, does that make sense? Well, I was specifically wondering about compartmentalization. Some people say, oh yeah, that person is so great at compartmentalizing, they just shove all the stuff that's not useful out of their mind. But I'm wondering if that's a bad response.

I love the question that Joseph poses. So I'm wondering if the solution is compartmentalization. I'm just using that term because it's used a lot out there in society. Yeah. I think the value of a question like that is to unfixate. It's what you're interested in removing is the part that's fixated, not the thought itself, if that makes sense. There's a fixated quality in which I feel helpless, like I have to keep going around and around in this. And oh, is this useful?

Can sometimes help us sort of a little bit unfixate from it. And now we're not driving it forward. But it still may be there for quite a while. It has a certain energy. And that energy often has to kind of play itself out. So sometimes you kind of see this and unfix be a kind of pop and it kind of just sort of runs out of steam almost immediately. Other times it's going to kind of keep going.

I don't actually think taking it and trying to jam it over here, whatever that looks like in your experience. Some people hope it can do it. For a lot of us it doesn't really work. Some people it can, in the sense that you can do a thing of like, sometimes before I go to sleep, I have a busy mind and I will deliberately do a kind of visualization where I'll say, oh, I see this is part of you worried about X, Y, and Z. You know what? I'm going to just like, let's tuck you in because we're getting ready to go to bed. I'll just imagine putting them in a big bed, like an old 70s water bed. And

I'm like, here you go. And I'll put a little thing on. I'll be like, it's OK. Just hang out over there. And just think about that stuff in your 70s water bed. It's weird, but it can actually sort of work. I get space from it, and I've given it permission to do its thing and wind down.

And I don't even notice it anymore. It kind of peters out. So you can kind of find of find stress and maybe that is a form of compartmentalization But in general you're not trying to shut down any you're trying to just kind of care for all the parts and then kind Of take out what's fixated in there Yes, I think what you don't want is a version The hostility Jeff was talking about tucking into the waterbed was a friendly not now. But that's not not ever I hate you or a complete rejection because that just makes whatever you're dealing with stronger. And so I think that's that's the trick. Does that line for you? Yeah, that's great. Thank you. Yes, but let's look go ahead I'm a mom of little kids and I'm curious what meditation looks like in your homes with little children

I'm also pediatrician. So I see the value that it can have for the Growing generation. It's made me much less reactive as a parent. I can't force my husband to do it but I would love for him to I can't force my husband to do it, but I would love for him to incorporate this into his life too. But I'm curious, what does that look like in your home? It looks like a fucking disaster. Honestly. Sorry for my français.

Okay. I mean, I got two kids, two and a half, two and four and a half, and they're like animals. And they're up at six in the morning, and we're lucky if we get them down at nine o'clock at night. And it is nonstop insanity from the moment we're up until down and exhausted. So what does it look like at our house?

I mean, I'm just gonna be dead honest with you. What does it look like at our house? It is a good week if I can get two 20-minute meditations in that way. It is a good week. One of those, I'm cheating because I do my thing on Sunday night, the Do Nothing project, which I know you come. So that's my 25, I definitely get that one in. And I usually try to get one or two in at work. Like at lunch or there's one on a Thursday morning, I'll do like a 20 minute or half an hour and then I'll try another lunchtime. So because I do think it's important to have,

to find an island of stability. You know, it's not, most of what I'm doing is just trying to apply the skills in the moment and there's a great value in that and I'll say something about that But there's no doubt in my mind that if I'm not quote lubricating that with some sort of like One or two or three islands of stability in the week I really noticed the difference if I can do it every day Find a 20-minute set I will do it and I'm determined to try and I'm getting more there now that

Three a week is or two That three a week is or two to three a week is up from zero from one one to zero you know which was in the early days. So there's so I think and then that so you have to figure out for yourself how you make it whether you get up even earlier whether you sit in your car when you arrive at work and take 10 minutes or you do it on the subway I mean mean, there are ways to work smart. And if I can figure out how to get it in a little bit to my life, my insane life, I think most people probably could

if you have enough desire to. But then there's how you apply it in the moment. And for me, it looks a lot like surrender, surrender, surrender, surrender, surrender. It looks like in, and I'm gonna write a post about this on my home base, Substack, it looks like in, and I'm gonna write a post about this on my home base sub stack, it's a lot about, okay, what do you do when you can't get away?

Like I have a little, my four and a half year old is very intense character with some major challenges that he's dealing with and he gets really dysregulated and violent and wild and I am really triggered by it and I can't leave the room because he'll hurt himself or, you know, and I can't leave the room, because he'll hurt himself, or, you know, and I can't trade off with my partner, Sarah, because our babies, our two year old, is terrified and crying,

and I have to be right there in the middle of this, and I can't get away. And I am not at calm, I am at nine out of 10, I'm like on a hair trigger about to lose my freaking mind. And so what do I do? I put all my attention in my feet. I have to, I know in order to keep my boundaries and not get entangled with my son, I have to keep a sense of my own body. I have to feel my body as separate from his body. I say, I let him know that I'm here, I'm not going anywhere.

I find this, whatever patience I can to let, to know that he's gonna go through his cycle and he's gonna come down the other side. Just like we have our cycles inside, it's that U-shaped curve. I have to just hold that space while he's going up into there. And sometimes I'm gonna screw up

and then it's gonna be about the repair. I'm gonna bet angry, I'm gonna say the wrong thing, it's gonna to be about the repair. I'm going to bet angry, I'm going to say the wrong thing, it's going to get worse, it's like, but then I'll make the repair afterwards. And that part of the mindfulness practice is remembering to make the repair. That was a big recognition for me. Okay, oh, I don't have to be perfect. It's not about getting it even right in the moment. It's about, can I recover faster? Can I make my apology? Can I come back to a more settled baseline knowing I'm gonna screw up. So there's a few things, a couple things there. Was that helpful?

Yes, very much so, thank you. Other parents were like, whoa! Yeah. Yeah. It's nice to hear that logistically how we do incorporate it because it's, I know it's different for every family, but I've always wondered what that looked like for you guys. Thanks.

Mal. Greetings, natural humans. My name is Mal. Hi, Seb. Hey. Just to jump off the last person, I'm a pediatric hospital clown. I don't have a podcast. Wow.

But I get to work just about 15 minutes early and I turn on the app and I sit in my car and I just prepare myself to go in to work. And it's really helpful. My question, and I don't mean to be a downer, but my question is around grief and mourning. Our society likes us to not express, feel those things. I grew up certainly in that category. I'm wondering if you all have some tools to add to the things that I'm learning around handling grief and mourning. I belong to a couple of groups where we work on sharing our stories.

And I feel like connection and community is a huge tool in terms of managing grief and mourning and dissipating some of the isolation that comes with that. But I'm wondering if you all have some other tools I can add to my tool belt about just living my best life in the midst of adversity and grief. So thanks. Yeah, thank you. That's such a, I think, a really poignant question for our times. There's a lot of collective grief and personal grief and preemptive grief for all that's going on in our world

and also ecologically. So I think about this, I talk about it a lot, and I just finished teaching a course on this. And I feel like in this culture, we confuse grief and mourning. We think they're the same thing. But grief is actually our experience of loss and the feelings and sensations and experiences we have around that. And mourning are the practices that we engage in to face that loss and grief.

But we've mostly lost our mourning practices as a contemporary society. And I'm really interested in ritual and how ritual, first of all, because it works. There's been a lot of study of ritual. There's a lot of scientific understanding that for some reason, ritual actually works like placebo. And actually I learned through my research that placebo started as a

descriptor for the paid mourners in ancient culture. That's what placebo meant. And there are many cultures still throughout the world where you can hire mourners to come to your funeral to help elicit the emotion because it's really, grief is meant to be expressed and released, but we get really attached to grief because we don't know how to deal with it, but we, you know, grief is basically a sign that we've loved, you know, it's not a mistake,

it's not a problem, we grieve because we loved something, but we don't hold onto that grief forever. We actually engage in processes to honor that grief and to honor the love that's behind that grief and release it. And it is a process. So for me, I've really benefited from the mourning practices from my traditional culture.

So when my mom died, even though I'm not very connected to Ethiopian culture, I was sort of whisked into mourning practices that involved a lot of wailing actually. And it's intense, like, you know, and a lot of times it's not your family, it's the friends and community that wail. You don't need paid mourners when you have a community that will kind of performatively kind of get into it

to elicit. And I always often tell the story of my auntie who lives in the Bronx, she was my mom's best friend. And after my mom died, my sister and I would go and visit her. And every time we went to see her for one year, which is the traditional mourning period in Ethiopia, she would start wailing when she opened the door. But she didn't, she wasn't feeling that necessarily. She was sort of enacting this mourning ritual and she would make us cry.

Like, you know, we would start crying because we were still in our grief. And after a year, she just stopped. And you know, she was like, we're done with this, but it was so helpful to have a space where we knew we were allowed to just fall apart and cry. And then she would feed us, and we would laugh and tell stories, and then we would leave, have a normal visit.

So connecting back to practices and to ritual, and I know we've worked a little bit together in community. How do we do that? How do we connect to our ancestral rituals or make ones for ourselves and our communities? And so that's a little bit how I've approached it, I would say. Yeah. I got a lot from that virtual workshop with you. It's really helpful. And for me, virtual workshop with you. It's really helpful and for me as a brought up as an uptight New Englander getting myself to kind of embrace some of those things is where I'm kind of waffly a little bit but I think the more I do some of those things the more I will feel

the more I do some of those things, the more I will feel embodied with them. So I think I'm just not giving myself enough time to move through that and using ritual. And it doesn't have to. Yeah, it doesn't have to look a certain way. It can be letter writing. It could be, you know, just simple rituals in nature and, you know, making a little kind of altar for whoever, whatever you're grieving. So it doesn't have to be some big wailing performance, but something I can get a bunch of my clown friends around and I can be creative.

Yeah, really? Yeah. Who knows what will happen then? Totally. Yeah. But you can see the cathartic part of it, like to give the energy something to do. It's like you don't have to sit in this passive way with it. It's like engaging with the life of what's going on in our emotions. And Tasha would say that it's a tantric practice

of expressing the grief in some way, making something. It's to make it to continue to live and breathe and change. And that helps in, you know, that Pema Chodron quote I said yesterday, feel your feelings, drop the story. It's similar with grief because we can get into the story of grief and it becomes sorrow, it becomes melancholy, it just brings us down. But if we actually just feel the feelings of grief and let them flow, it's a natural process.

Thank you so much. I just have to shut up the shoulds in my head. Yeah, I'll keep working on it. I appreciate you all so much. Thank you. Thank you. Great to see you. Thank you for your work.

Yeah. Thank you to Seb, Jeff, and all the brave people who came to Meditation Party. Don't forget we've got another one coming up in October at the Omega Institute. You can sign up at eOmega.org. There's also a link in the show notes. We'd love to have you. And just to note that we're dropping a bunch of Meditation Party episodes down the feed this week. There will also be links in the show notes, but don't forget that this Sunday you can hear a guided

meditation from Meditation Party led by me. Before I go, I want to thank everybody who worked so incredibly hard to make this show happen. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan, and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our production manager. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our managing producer.

And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme. If you like 10% happier, and I hope you do, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.