Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - Jeff Tweedy (From Wilco) On: Music As A Lifeline, Shame, Schadenfreude, And Freaking Out On Weed

Episode Date: August 16, 2024

Dan dweebs out with a dad rock icon.Jeff Tweedy is the lead singer and songwriter of the Grammy award winning rock band, Wilco. The band have put out 13 albums… and shortly after this interview was conducted, the band put out a new EP. Jeff has released two solo albums and has written three books, including his latest, which is called World Within A Song: Music That Changed My Life And Life That Changed My Music.This interview is part of an occasional series we do called Boldface, where we talk to well known people who are willing to go there. We’ve already dropped two Boldface episodes this week: the rapper and author Common and the actress, activist and author Goldie Hawn.Sign up for Dan’s weekly newsletter hereFollow Dan on social: Instagram, TikTokTen Percent Happier online bookstoreSubscribe to our YouTube ChannelOur favorite playlists on: Anxiety, Sleep, Relationships, Most Popular EpisodesFull Shownotes: https://happierapp.com/podcast/tph/jeff-tweedy-813Additional Resources:Download the Ten Percent Happier app today: https://10percenthappier.app.link/installSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to 10% happier early and ad free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. It's the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello everybody, how we doing? Like many a middle-aged white man, it has long been a fantasy of mine to hang out and chop it up with dad rock icon, Jeff Tweedy, lead singer and songwriter of the band Wilco. I've been listening to Wilco since the 90s. Absolutely love that band. So I got to live out one of my fantasies. And as you will hear, dude does

not disappoint. He is fascinating and he came to play. There was so much interesting stuff here. One thing that really stuck out to me is as fans of the band know, Tweedy's lyrical and vocal style has always been world you know, world weary and detached. What I didn't know until this interview is that that style is actually no coincidence. In this interview, you're gonna hear Jeff talk about how he's always felt cut off and separate from the world and how music has been a lifeline in this regard.

We also talk about shame, schadenfreude, and freaking out on weed, and we nerd out about some of Jeff's favorite songs. A little bit more about Jeff Tweedy, he's the founding member and leader of the Grammy Award-winning rock band Wilco. The band have put out 13 albums and shortly after this interview was conducted in fact they put out a new EP which I have yet to check out but I'm excited to listen to it. Jeff has also released two solo albums and has written three books, including his latest,

which is called World Within a Song, Music That Changed My Life and Life That Changed My Music. And that's where we spend a lot of time in this interview on this latest book. I should say this interview is part of an occasional series we do here on the show called Boldface, where we talk to well-known people who are willing to go there.

We're dropping three Boldface episodes this week. If you missed it, go back and check out my chats with Goldie Hawn and the rapper Common. And then, of course, today it's Jeff Tweedy who is coming up right after this. Listening to Audible helps your imagination soar. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, expert advice, any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, new ways of thinking. Listening can lead to positive change in your mood,

your habits, and ultimately your overall wellbeing. Audible has the best selection of audiobooks without exception, along with popular podcasts and exclusive Audible originals, all in one easy app. Enjoy Audible anytime while doing other things, household chores, exercising on the road, commuting, you name it. My wife Bianca and I have been listening

to many audiobooks as we drive around for summer vacations. We listen to Life by Keith Richards. Keith, if you're listening, I'd love to have you on the show. We also listen to Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari. And Yuval, if you're listening to this, we would also love to have you on the show. We also listen to Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari and Yuval, if you're listening to this, we would also love to have you on the show. So audiobooks, yes, audible, yes, love it. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free 30 day audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.ca. Audible.ca.

Alice and Matt here from British Scandal. Matt, if we had a bingo card, what would be on there? Oh, compelling storytelling, egotistical white men and dubious humour. If that sounds like your cup of tea, you will love our podcast, British Scandal, the show where every week we bring you stories from this green and not always so pleasant land. We've looked at spies, politicians, media magnates, a king. No one is safe. And knowing our country, we won't be out of a job any time soon.

Follow British scandal wherever you listen to your podcasts. Season and let me tell you is too good and I'm diving into the brains of entertainments best and brightest Okay, every episode I bring on a friend I mean the likes of Amy Poehler Kell Mitchell Vivica Fox the list goes on so follow watch and listen to baby This is Kiki Palmer on the wonder react or wherever you get your podcast Jeff Tweedy welcome to the show. Hey, how are you doing? I'm doing great. I'm very excited for this I'm a longtime fan of every record you've ever made and been to see you live many, many times, including most recently in Portland, Maine, of all places. Oh, wow. So it's a pleasure to have you on. Thanks for making the time. Thank you for having me.

I feel like this is the dream of every white man of a certain age to interview Jeff Tweedy. So many of the songs you talk about here are like key songs for me too. So this is something I'll be bragging to my college buddies about. So I know you have a new book. I do want to start with a question that relates to your most recent record. And that I think might wing us to the new book. So are you okay with that plan of attack? Sure.

Your most recent album is called Cousin and you said in describing the record something very interesting to me. You said that you feel like a cousin to the world and I'm quoting you here, I don't feel like a blood relation but maybe a cousin by marriage. What's that about? On one hand I think it's just press release stuff. On one hand, I think it's just press release stuff. It's just like coming up with something to share with the public that hopefully peaks their interest into what a record might be about. A lot of people have taken issue with that being something that doesn't mean that much, but basically it's how I feel.

I mean, I don't think I was lying about that. I think there's an alienation that comes with growing up in a smaller town There's a certain amount of conformity that really feels sort of oppressive There's an anti-intellectualism and a lot of places like the place where I grew up. I found people I found friends and stuff but you feel like there's something wrong with you I think in that you don't seem to relate to a lot of what everybody else is excited about Not that my opinion is that important but I didn't read it as a throwaway

Press release line at all and in fact I kind of like interpolated back to every song I've ever heard you play even in your vocal style it sometimes feels and this is projection like I'm back to every song I've ever heard you play. Even in your vocal style, it sometimes feels, and this is projection, like I'm listening to somebody who experiences the world that are removed in some ways. I don't think it's an uncommon trait among people that are artists, are writers, or end up in creative pursuit. Well, I don't know. There's an interiority to how you relate to the world that feels like a barrier and at the same time

allows you to reflect on a lot of things that don't appear to be considered as much by other people. But it's hard because I've always assumed that it's like still to this day. It's really hard for me I think it's hard for anybody to picture that the world is Experienced differently by other people than the way we experience it I think it's really hard for us to put ourselves in other people's shoes I always assume that people are smarter than me. I always assume that people are seeing all of the things I'm seeing, but faster, you know?

And it's taken me a long time to realize that not everybody cares about the things I care about, and maybe making peace with that a little bit more as I've gotten older. Well, that kind of brings me to the new book. As I read it, the central thesis is that for you caring so deeply about songs is what has allowed you to connect with the world from which you felt a little alienated am i reading that correctly yeah I mean again that's a little bit of the same kind of projection I'm talking about I've written off being able to completely connect and understand somebody that doesn't have a passion. But I think that having a passion, like being interested in songwriting, being into music, making records,

all the things that I've obsessed about in my life, gives you an insight and a language to communicate with other people that have found something to pour themselves into. So that means because you love a thing so deeply, you can talk to somebody else who may not love the same thing. It could be gardening, it could be iguanas or whatever it is, you can talk to them because at least you share passion in common. I think so. It's not a fully formed philosophy for me. It's just an inkling, a hint, the thing that at one point in my life isolated me somewhat over time has given me maybe a different mode of communication with people that younger me thought I had nothing in common. Would you describe yourself as shy or introverted?

Definitely introverted. It's hard to describe anybody that gets up on stage as much as I do as shy, but much shyer when I was younger, probably, than I am now. I've kind of gotten used to being able to come out of my shell when needed. My predisposition would be to not able to come out of my shell when needed. My predisposition would be to not have to. We don't know each other.

I mean, I feel like I know you a little bit because I've listened to your music for so long and sort of watched you on stage and on film. But the take I always had on you from a remove was, well, this is a pretty introverted person who might not interact with the world so much if he didn't have this passion that he wanted to share with them. For sure. I mean, I'm very comfortable being alone. I was

brought up to be that way. I talk about a little bit in the book. My mother had one philosophy basically that she lived by and that was the idea that you're born alone and you die alone. You should get used to being alone. That's what my mother would say explicitly. You know, I wouldn't say to my mother I'm lonely and have her react with, well, let's call up Joey down the street and see if he wants to come over. My mother would react by saying, well, let me teach you how to play solitaire. So there's an interesting thing about getting up on stage that I always think about in that is.

There's a power discrepancy with the way people perceive somebody on stage with a microphone and a PA and a platform, and they're literally, literally higher than the rest of the audience. But the people that get up on stage don't know that much about the people looking at them, but anybody in the audience knows a great deal about somebody that walks up on stage. They know that that person really wants love and attention and approval. I think there's a great deal of vulnerability comes from that. Just knowing that the audience can see that just by the mere fact

that you've walked on stage. I'm imagining, cause I'm, I don't think I'm an introvert, but for somebody who has introverted tendencies. To do that, to walk up on stage, to put you, make yourself that vulnerable, I would imagine it's harder. I don't know. I mean, I don't know how other people experience it. I mean, I've come to really enjoy it.

The reward is so great to me that it's over time proven to be worth the travail. I think, guess I've gotten to feel like I'm pretty good at it over a long period of time. I think I was delusionally convinced that I was good at it even early on because I was doing something that I had seen other people do that looked like it would make me happy. And it did. There was a catharsis to it. And early on my needs were different probably from it, but the core need was the same.

I'm trying to decide what I think about what your mom told you. I mean, it's true. And I don't know how it lands in the cranium of an eight year old. It's not a good philosophy to maybe share with a young person, really young person, preteen, you know, there is a really solid bit of advice in there. And that is, I think people are better off. are better off, they're comfortable with themselves enough to be alone and alone with their own thoughts and be reflective and comfortable in their own skin. You know, a lot of people do struggle with that, I think. So I think that there is some good advice and advocating for people to figure out a way to be alone and happy alone. That's not really what my mother's philosophy, how it really played out in practice.

I think it was kind of the opposite. I think it was put up barriers, like a fear of depending on somebody else would make you more vulnerable than you are by yourself and not meeting people. I think my mother came by that very honestly because I think she had a lot of people in her life as a young girl that really let her down and really hammered home the unreliability of the people in her life and the people that she was,

I think, really needed love from and dependable love. Hearing that as a young child, do you think that's one of the contributors to your feeling like a cousin to the world? Sure, I'm damn absolutely. Just my mother's lack of boundary setting, I was her son, but I was also her, like her companion. I had an son, but I was also her like her companion. I had an emotional emotional

responsibility that I think is pretty unhealthy for a young person. It was to feel like you're, you need to stay home because your mom's going to be upset if you I was much more reliable as a person to depend upon because I was loving and I was dependent on her. So that's a very complicated thing, but it's also, it's just the way it was. So yeah, when I got to school, I think it's understandable that seeing people that had normal boundaries with their parents or just the fact that they didn't love my mom as much as I love my mom those were red flags to a kid like me You know like you don't think your mom's great so it's an odd thing for a little boy to walk around with And also the her instilling in you this belief that the world isn't as trustworthy

That I imagine could also make you feel like a little feral. Yeah, there's like, you know, my mom is a it's very, she's very complicated. She's very, very, very, very smart. She never graduated high school. I think she was brilliant. She was an autodidact. She was able to teach herself drafting, She was able to teach herself drafting. She was able to accomplish a lot. She did have an openness to the world in a way that my father really didn't. When my mother passed away, there were people

that we'd never really, I don't know, hadn't seen for years and years came to her funeral because there were some less fortunate people that my mother really embraced and without a lot of attention to that side of her. But at the same time, yeah, she did have a deep skepticism about a lot of other people. I think she was very, very skeptical of people that she deemed phonies. And those were generally people that had money,

people that had positions of power and religious authorities, anything like that. She had a deep skepticism of those people and she did have an openness and attitude of helpfulness towards people that she saw as less fortunate. Sounds ideal, really. It's like, it's a pretty, pretty good way to live. But again, it's really hard to just label her as one thing regarding people. There's a scene with your mom in the book, you're playing her a song by the Volcano Sons, which there was a band that I loved when I was a kid. I'm from Boston, they're from Boston. The drummer was the drummer in a classic Boston band, Mission of Burma.

And actually that drummer, Peter was the checkout guy at a local record store on Newbury street in Boston. So I used to be able to talk to him occasionally. You describe playing this Volcano Sons song to your mom and how that memory fills you with something approaching shame. Why is that? Well, in the book I describe it as like understanding

that there's a level of support in this flawed relationship with my mother that like almost feels like flaunting an extravagant gift or something. I was indulged in a way that I didn't see everybody being indulged by their parents on a deep emotional level. There's a willingness or an attempt to understand that I didn't see many of my peers really getting from their parents, you know. There's also a certain amount of just embarrassment at that tableau of sitting down and say, you want to know how I really feel? This is how I feel. Let me listen to this. You know, they say, hey, you know, there's a little bit of a cliche and there's maybe there's a certain amount of shame and shame in the memory of it and also shame at feeling embarrassed by it.

I've committed a bit of journalistic malpractice by not asking the following question until now. But your last answer gets me there. The book is called The World Within a Song. And that kind of goes to the core thesis of the book Can you tell us what you mean by that title? well as inspired by a book of literary criticism By an author named William H. Gass who wrote the world within the word. I Believe that's the title of one of his books It always intrigued me what that meant. What I took from that is that there really is a world of meaning within each word if we allow ourselves to

think about it on a communication level. What I mean by it in my context, in the context of songs, is that each song has its own meaning with each consciousness it encounters. In some cases, the meaning might be almost nothing because it doesn't work. The magic doesn't work. For other people, that song could mean everything, completelypsulate a moment in time in their life. It could like Entwine itself with sense memories like even smell, you know, so there's just it's just about how beautiful I think that is that We can listen to a song you and I can like the same song, we can love the same song, we can maybe even compare notes

and think that the song means just about the same thing and like on its face. But your version of it is never going to be exactly like mine and the way that your life gets absorbed into that song is gonna be its own world compared to mine. You write really well about this. You say songs are the best way to make peace with our lack of shared consciousness.

And you go on to say that you're fascinated by the blurry area between a song and the mind that receives it. And to me, this all kind of, and maybe I'm making a connection that's not there and so you can disabuse me of this grandiose theory, but it kind of all harkens back to the cousin idea and the comments from your mom.

It seems to me that you're a guy and the thesis of this book goes right at this, is very interested in wrestling with this experience of being or feeling separate. It's maddening. I think it's maddening to not for us not to feel more connected. I think that my life's work is in the field of music and that that is one of the areas where we very outwardly, openly strive to make a connection. It is difficult. It is difficult to do that. I just think the world would be better if there was more connection. I just think that there's and I think that it's not uncommon at all for people to strive for it and reach out for it.

I do think that there's maybe something to be gained from doing so consciously as opposed to it just being an impulse. I think the conscious effort to make a connection is slightly different from just our need for connection. It does make you more vulnerable. It does make the possibility of rejection maybe more painful, but I think it's the only thing I can think of that over time,

if it was able to be instilled in more people and embraced and advocated for. It's the only thing I think can create real change, can create real progress towards some maddeningly obvious way that the world should be. We all die. So what are we? arguing over just Scraps or you know, I'm not the first person to make that connection

And but it's like it's so difficult for humans to stay focused on this bigger picture that you would think would heal the world if everybody was able to stay Committed to it. I hear you kind of subtly beating yourself up for this being maddeningly obvious, but isn't it the job of the artist to find new ways to talk about the maddeningly obvious?

Yeah, I mean, that's one of the things I think is essential and elemental to making art to reveal an authentic world that other people have more difficulty seeing, maybe, or naming. They see it, maybe it's easier to embrace it when it has a name, when it has a song, when it has a painting, when it has a place to visit. But yeah, I think that that's a constant need for society is to, you know, words lose their power. That's why, you know, a rose is a rose is a rose

is effective because it takes something and rubs your nose and it enforces you to see it again or at least hear it again as something unique and special cliches tarot the fabric of the authentic world and we I Think we need help. We need people paying attention and Asking us to look other places. Yeah Well this point you're making about Connection, you know again, it's something that artists have been calling for for a while em Forrester only connect

Dostoevsky compassion is the chief law of human nature and compassion is the chief law of human nature. And you're doing your best to put new language on it for new generation of people. I'm curious in your own life, beyond music, are there other ways in which you attempt connection? I'm asking that because in the book, you go through a series of songs

and talk about your personal experiences with them. And in your description of a song by Diane is a called love like a wine. Love like a wire like love my handwriting so shitty that I read it wine love like a wire Diane is oh let's keep that in me fucking that up not edited out you say I've been working on not holding back in the moment. That just caught my eye. There's a strange I guess, certain distortion that happens between my suspicion of ego as an artist, and like the need to subvert the ego to get to a part of me that can surprise me that is better than what my ego would come up with needing approval and needing people to think

I'm smart and all of the things that I'm desperate for the artists you have to find a way to you have to find a way to embrace something different than that. And so there's a self-deprecation that is dissonant with the realization that at this point in my life, I am somebody to some people, and that a little kindness coming from me, from somebody that's like really interior and somebody like this trying, you're like, do not go, oh, I'm better off just like not saying anything because I, who am I? That person probably doesn't even they would, it wouldn't even need to be me as a persona that has made records that they care about or something like that. It's just a good thing to do. So stop being so full of yourself. It goes round and round and round. But what I'm getting at is that over time, I've had to be conscious and go the things that have really helped me in my life

have been when people have stepped out and given a little bit of encouragement or just a Just a little acknowledgement that they see you. It's just really Fundamental it seems sounds so silly to talk about because it just seems like it should just be so easy But I think it's worth it to to try to just develop habits. For example, is a band on tour having a younger bands out opening for a band Wilco. Making it a point to introduce yourself and and watch them

from the side of the stage and be encouraging. Then that happened for me a lot with bands like R.E.M. when we were opening for them and Peter Buck was very encouraging when I was very young. But it's just a nice thing to do. The revealing thing is that I have to write it in my book to remind myself to do this obvious thing. I'm trying to decide whether to go on one of my little rants here, but I'll do it quickly. One of the things I often say is that in this sphere of whatever you want to call it, personal growth, spiritual growth, whatever, there's no good way to describe it.

But in this zone that I live in, somewhat embarrassingly, the hardest thing is remembering. You can hear good advice, but your programming takes you in the opposite direction. Culture often takes you in an opposite direction. So writing in a book to remember it, to me, seems like really good practice. Well, I mean, I've often described my songs as a way to remember things.

If I can name one explicit reason that I would have written a lot of my songs, it would be because I thought of something and I realized that the only way I would ever remember it over time is by singing it over and over and over again. That's amazing. Coming up, we're going to take a deeper dive into some of the songs that mean the most to Jeff Tweedy. Welcome to the Offensive Line.

You guys, on this podcast, we're going to make some picks, talk some sh**, and hopefully make you some money in the process. I'm your host, Annie Agar. So here's how this show's going to work, okay? We're going to run through the weekly slate of NFL and college football matchups, breaking them down into very serious categories like no offense. No offense, Travis Kelce, but you've got to step up your game if Pat Mahomes is saying the Chiefs need to have more fun this year. We're also handing out a series of awards and making picks for the top storylines surrounding the world of football.

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In April 1912, the luxury ocean liner RMS Titanic embarked on her maiden voyage from Southampton, England en route to New York. Spirits were high, but as the ship sailed into the frigid waters of the North Atlantic, danger was lurking. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondry's podcast American History Tellers. We take you to the events, times, and people that shaped America and Americans, our values, our struggles, and our dreams. In our latest series, we'll take you to the early hours of April 15, 1912, when the Titanic strikes an iceberg, 2,200 passengers and crew are left scrambling for the lifeboats and their lives.

Follow American History Tellers on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge this season of American History Tellers on the Titanic early and ad-free right now on Wondery+. Before we head back into the interview, just want to remind you about the Meditation Party retreat coming up on October 11th. eOmega.org to sign up. Also want to remind you about the new feature over on the 10% Happier app, where you can do a monthly check-in and get a personalized meditation plan.

Thinking about your comment about not holding back in the moment, especially when there might be somebody who just a handshake from Jeff Tweedy would mean a lot. I'm just remembering some moments from my youth where I went to see fire hose and college fire hose. You're smiling, you know them, but for the uninitiated, started by the drummer and bassist from the Minutemen, who are a seminal punk band from the eighties.

And in fact, one of their songs is, and we're gonna get to it, is a highlight of your new book. And Mike Watt was the bassist and he was kind of the star. And he sang a lot of the songs, not all, but some of the songs. My friend Marshall and I were huge fans of Mike Watt and we were going to see a Firehose show, standing in the audience waiting for them to come on,

talking about how cool it would be to buy Mike Watt a shot. And he came up behind us and put his arms around us and said, you wanna buy me a shot? And we did it and it was incredible. And so he'll probably never remember that, but Marshall and I will carry that memory into the grave. So these small things can make a huge difference if you can get out of your own way. Yeah, for sure.

I love Mike Watt. We've been around each other a lot over the years. My relationship with Mike Watt is a little bit different because Uncle Tupelo opened for Firehose and I was the bass player in Uncle Tupelo and Mike Watt is extremely bass centric in his philosophy about the world. I shook hands with him and he grabbed my hand and he felt my fingers and he said you play with a pick because I didn't have enough callous on my right hand. So I took that as admonishment, but it didn't change my feeling towards him because it was a different type of encouragement.

It was an invitation to be as passionate as he is. He's so unique. He played our festival solid sound at the last one we had. I got to sit and hang out with him more than I've ever been able to. And it was just lovely. It's just like, he was really happy. And most of his approval of me was from giving Nels Klein a place to live musically and helping more people know about Nels Klein and because he loves Nels Klein, Nels Klein played on his early solo records

and they've been friends for a long time. So it was more about you've done right by my friend and did some part of me want him to like think that my music was on par with something that he would approve of? Probably, but I couldn't have really asked for it to be any other way. There was something more human about it being you took care of my friend. You're taking care of my friend. Mad respect for you for taking care of my friend. You're taking care of my friend mad respect for you for taking care of my friend

Well bad respect for you from me for admitting that you wanted the approval cuz I actually I mean I Want that shit too all the time and and so to hear somebody I look up to cop to it is useful But it's also good for me. I kind of can't picture Mike Watt But it's also good for me. I kind of can't picture Mike Watt needing my music. You know, I think that I don't really try and make much judgment about who needs something I put out into the world or doesn't need it. But it would make sense to me that it's not something that resonates with them. Because I think that from what I know about him and his music, it's a different delivery system of something that maybe we share in common, but it's not Okay, I would want it, but I would also think it would be weird You write as I mentioned about one of the best-known songs from Mike Watts previous band with his childhood friend D Boone the Minutemen history lesson, part two, and you say, it's the ground on which I stand.

What do you mean by that? Oh, I mean, it encapsulates the dream, maybe the only real dream, aspirational dream I ever had in my life, and that is to be in a band with my friends and Get to do that just that just get to be in a band with my friends and have a gig at a place In a way to get to it That's what that song kind of means to me. It's like we're all kind of pretending to be our heroes and That song owns up to that also

at the same time that it's being extremely self-aware it's also perpetuating i don't know it's hard to think of a song that acknowledges its place in the flow the river of output songs, inspiration, and at the same time, transcends it in such a personal way, makes it so personal. It's not grandiose at all. It's human scale. I could go on and on and on. I mean, I like what, how do you describe the ground that you stand on in any more explicit terms than that? It's just a foundational thing literally I think you know a lot of music comes to people that end up playing music as some type of permission to be yourself to find some way to be yourself in the world and

Not be ashamed of it. And that song basically states that directly. You have permission. Look at us, we were fucking corn dogs. At the same time, I don't know if that's the intention in the song, the intention in the song is just really sweet. It's just like a love letter between two bandmates. This like an earnestness to like, we're just gonna sing about exactly what it is that we're

doing and and how we feel about it exactly and how important it is for us to be able to be vulnerable and loving towards like what it is we're doing that was like more punk rock to me than a lot of things that may be more associated with the emotion of punk rock as anger or something. That seemed radical. Yeah, because it's a punk song, a punk band, but it's not an abrasive song.

So many of these songs that you write about, I have my own memories of, which is what the point of the book. A life-changing moment for me in 1985 in Newton South High School in my homeroom. Tim Smith, the goth kid in the class, turned around and gave me a blank tape. On one side was the Minutemen, Double Nichols on the Dime. The other was Sonic Youth's Sister. And I'd never heard of either of these bands, nor had I heard the records. And I listened to them that night and my whole identity changed.

I became obsessed with, and you read about this too, SST Records, the record label that put out a lot of these bands and basically underground rock in general, I think we called it alternative back then. So yeah, I don't know where I'm going with that. Before I Lose You, there are a couple other songs I wanna get you to talk about there's a song that I'd never heard of before called Lord Lord Lord and

You describe it as silly, but then you go on to say loud loud loud My handwriting is atrocious. I mean you can't see it, but yeah, we get up here. It is so fucking bad Okay, loud loud loud. Let's keep that in too. You describe it as silly, but then you say, I don't think you should ever override what your body is telling you about a song. And I love that because I think some, and maybe this isn't true for you,

but it's definitely true for me, where if you get really into a certain kind of music, you can be purist about it and very judgmental and write off whole other categories. Yeah, I mean, I think our generation was extremely gifted at that. I think it was so elemental to how everybody was forming their identity

for people growing up in our time period, especially people that were forming their identities around music, that it did seem like you had to discard something to feel authentic. That's childish and not really in the spirit of what music really is. Music really is it's hard to fault anybody for making any kind of music. In my opinion, it doesn't mean it's all for me or should like it all or it's not like it doesn't mean I can't not like something or hate something even. But it is a more realistic place to be than to tell yourself before you've even heard something that you can't like it, which I think we did a lot of. Yes. Let me see if I can sneak in one last song here before I let you go. As another one I chose, and it is in keeping with the theme of your book, I chose it in part because it resonated with some painful memories of my own.

The song is Little Johnny Jewel. Am I saying that correctly? Yeah, you got it. By television. And you talk about freaking out after smoking too much weed, listening to this song, and you say, and this is a quote, it felt like something had truly broken inside of me. And that's an experience that I've had with that.

I had quite a bit in high school smoking weed and just kind of losing it. Um, and it was the most terrifying. The those were my first panic attacks. Um, and I, my brain got really good at panicking as a result. And I'm not saying this to say that weed is bad. It's just some brains are not a congenial place for that molecule. So I don't know if you could talk about that experience

and how it lives with you now. Yeah, I think, well, it was actually from eating too much weed. We had made some pot cookies for a road trip as one would do back in the day. You know, not ideal. I don't think I'd ever eaten before. I didn't really understand how much to eat and I think it was definitely some type of overdose. But yeah, it was, I guess, what people would term ego death or, you know, like if you achieved it through hallucinogenics, there'd be some

religious Connotation to it or if there was any understanding going into it of what might happen It might have been better prepared, but I still think I would have panicked and lost lost a part of me that um I can't say I regret having lost because who knows? I mean, who knows what doors opened and having that door closed. But yeah, it introduced a psychological state

that I became very familiar with over the course of my life. And that is this fear for anybody that has panic and anxiety, a lot of times the fear is of the fear. You know, the panic is about the panic and just the discomfort of being locked in one moment in time, wanting to be anywhere else but that specific moment and feeling like there potentially is never going to be another moment in your life where you're okay. Yes. That was probably the first time I ever really, really felt that. Yes. Yeah. You feel like I'm never gonna, I have, I'm going to live in this hell forever.

And the irony here is that we're talking about ego death, which can be an extremely healthy experience, which by the way goes right back to the, the core of this whole discussion, which can be an extremely healthy experience, which by the way, goes right back to the core of this whole discussion, which is that it can help you stop feeling so separate from the world. You can drop the illusion of the self. This is what deep meditation and hallucinogens,

psychedelics are designed to do. And yet somehow for the two of us, it threw us into panic. You know, again, maybe not being prepared for it by our culture or whatever reason, it was very, very, very painful. That being said, some of the benefits of that maybe still managed to infiltrate our minds, or at least from you know, because there's a certain amount of empathy that comes with that.

There's certain amount of insight into where like religious metaphor comes from. I really felt like I understood where hell came from. You know, just being in your body and in an eternal state, feeling a connection to something eternal gave me some insight into where things that didn't make sense to me about Religion maybe even things that seem silly to me about religion. They're like, oh well, this is born out of a body This is born out of our actual physiology You heard this this can happen our brains the chemicals can do this to us or you know, so yeah Wow, I now I get like more human history.

But it came in the form of something truly uncomfortable and undesirable. Well, this conversation has been neither. And yeah, I'm sure you hear this all the time. But it's so fun to talk to somebody who's, you know, I found my own worlds within your songs and for so long. So yeah, really, it's really cool to meet you. And thank you for your time. Oh, man, my pleasure. And yeah, this is right up my alley. This is the stuff I think about and talk about. So thanks for for hosting a platform for something that seems so deeply ingrained in my DNA. Thanks again to Jeff Tweedy. Great to have him on. Don't forget to check out my weekly

newsletter. You can sign up at danharris.com. Every week I sum up my biggest takeaways from the show and then also list three cultural recommendations, you know books, TV shows, movies, things like that. Danharris.com. You can also buy merch there. Before I go I want to thank everybody who worked so hard on this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan, and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our production manager. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our managing producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands, who actually just put out a great new album, which you should check out. Nick wrote our theme. Play us out, Nick. If you like 10% happier, and I hope you do, you can listen early and ad free right now

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