Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - Natasha Rothwell (White Lotus, How To Die Alone) On: Loneliness, Envy, People Pleasing, And Finding Your “Hell Yes”

Episode Date: September 20, 2024

Natasha Rothwell created, executive produced, and stars in the highly anticipated series How To Die Alone. Natasha is best known for her Emmy Nominated performance in HBO’s The White Lotus and is set to reprise her role as Belinda Lindsey in the third season of the series currently in production.She is also known for her critically acclaimed work as a series regular, writer, director, and producer on HBO’s Insecure, for which she has won a Peabody Award and received the 2022 NAACP Image Award for Best Supporting Actress in a Comedy.Having previously written for Saturday Night Live, and after penning screenplays for Netflix, Paramount, and HBO Max— Natasha’s original screenplay Black Comic-Con was selected for the 2021 Sundance Screenwriters Lab.Her genre-bending feature, along with several other projects, are in development at her production company, Big Hattie Productions—founded in 2020 to focus on creating, producing, and developing projects that champion marginalized voices in subversive ways.In this episode we talk about:Being alone vs being lonelyHow she handles her own tendencies toward people-pleasing and burnoutWorking with doubt, faith and the venerable cliche of “trusting in the universe”Envy (and how it’s a partner to the scarcity mindset)TherapyMeditationWhy she loves RomComs — and her issues with them And we go Behind the scenes in a TV writer’s room — and why it’s even tougher when the character is you Related Episodes:Kryptonite for the Inner Critic | Kristin NeffSelf-Compassion Ain't Always Soft | Kristin Neff Non-Negotiables PlaylistSign up for Dan’s weekly newsletter hereFollow Dan on social: Instagram, TikTokTen Percent Happier online bookstoreSubscribe to our YouTube ChannelOur favorite playlists on: Anxiety, Sleep, Relationships, Most Popular EpisodesFull Shownotes: https://happierapp.com/podcast/tph/natasha-rothwellSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to 10% happier early and ad free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey everybody, how we doing? Today it is a wide ranging, sometimes raw, sometimes hilarious conversation with a new friend of mine, Natasha Rothwell. You might remember her from season one of The White Lotus on HBO. She played the spa manager. She's coming back by the way in season three.

She was also on the huge hit show, Insecure, on HBO. She was in the movie Wonka. She's been in lots of stuff. Now she has a new show on Hulu, which she created and stars in. It's called How to Die Alone, which, as you will hear, plays on some incredibly personal themes for her. In this conversation, we talk about the difference

between being alone and being lonely, how Natasha handles her own tendencies toward people-pleasing and burnout, working with doubt, faith, and the venerable cliche, trusting the universe, envy, and how it's a partner to the scarcity mindset, therapy, meditation, why Natasha loves rom-coms and her issues with rom-coms.

And we go behind the scenes in a TV writer's room, and you'll hear why the work is even tougher when the main character is you. Natasha Rothwell, right after this. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, new ways of thinking. Listening can lead to positive change in your mood, your habits, and ultimately your overall wellbeing. Audible has the best selection of audiobooks

without exception, along with popular podcasts and exclusive Audible originals, all in one easy app. Enjoy Audible anytime while doing other things, household chores, exercising on the road, commuting, you name it. My wife Bianca and I have been listening to many audiobooks as we drive around for summer vacations. We listen to Life by Keith Richards.

Keith, if you're listening, I'd love to have you on the show. We also listen to Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari. And Yuval, if you're listening to this, we would also love to have you on the show. We also listen to Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari. And Yuval, if you're listening to this, we would also love to have you on the show. So audiobooks, yes, audible, yes, love it. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free 30 day audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.ca. Audible.ca. I'm Afua Hirsch.

And I'm Peter Frankipan. And in our podcast, Legacy, we explore the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. This season, we're exploring the life of Marilyn Monroe. From a tough childhood growing up in foster homes, she became one of the most famous and photographed stars of the 20th century. But off camera, the real Marilyn was shrewd, vulnerable, and funny, and also full of surprises.

Follow Legacy now wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Dak Shepard. And I'm Monica Padman. Monica and I do three weekly shows with celebrities on Monday, experts on Wednesdays, and crazy stories from listeners on Fridays. We're so excited to officially be a part of the Wondry Network.

So follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts and subscribe to Armchair Expert on YouTube. Natasha Rothwell, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. I've been trying to get you on this show for a long time, so I'm very excited that you're here. You have, you have. I'm very excited that you're here. You have, you have.

I'm very excited, equal part excited and nervous. The nervous part I don't get because you've been on some pretty incredible sets in the last couple of years. So that strikes me as way more anxiety producing than like sitting down talking to somebody you already know. I know, I know. I think it's also just different

when I show up as myself versus a character or You know I get to say words that someone else wrote Versus speaking as me so that's always a little bit more nerve-racking for me fair enough this isn't gonna help but Quote that I wanted to ask you about and and these are your words, is you've described your new show, How to Die Alone, on Hulu, everybody, you've described it as the most vulnerable piece of art you've ever created. How so?

Well, when I first was presented with the opportunity to have my own show, it's as if someone had slid a blank piece of paper to me and was just like, what do you want to say? Sort of in tandem with my career, I've been working on myself and authenticity has been a big theme and really wanting to allow myself the opportunity to say the things about my lived experience that I have not been able to say through other characters I've played. And a lot of that is centers around loneliness, which is really hard to talk about. But I felt like it was something that I had to speak about

and in doing so, other people would feel less lonely. So it almost felt like a calling where I was just like, I have to do it not just for me, but I have to do it for other people would feel less lonely. So it almost felt like a calling where I was just like, I have to do it not just for me, but I have to do it for other people in the world that feel alone and wanna be seen. So I had to put a lot of my bullshit on the paper and work through it. I'm so glad I did because I came out better for it,

for sure. Why is loneliness hard to talk about? I think for me, as someone who suffers from depression, I feel like the biggest fuel for it is this idea of isolation and being by yourself and it kind of feeds for my experience with depression. And when you start talking about it,

then you're no longer alone. And so then you kind of have to give up the lie that you are alone. And I think that there's an inherent vulnerability needed to sort of admit that you are Feeling lonely and that's also sort of we really split hairs with the show Because we want to explore the difference between being alone and lonely and I think The being alone for so much of my young adult life, especially because I was so heavily influenced by Rom-Coms, I thought that the antidote was finding a partner or being with

someone would be the solve for the loneliness. And as many people can attest, you can be in partnership and be very lonely. And so I wanted to really drill down on what loneliness is and what the antidote is. And what I found is its vulnerability and being able to open up about it, which is just, you know, incredibly hard because you put yourself out there and you let yourself be seen. And yeah, there's always inherent fear of judgment and shame when it comes to that. So just saying that you're lonely is risky because people might have all sorts of judgments around that. I think so.

And I think also it's a mind game, right? I think often for me when I have that fear of admitting my loneliness or reaching out that my experience is so unique and so off putting indifferent that it'll be rejected. So I don't know if it's based in, I don't believe it's based in fact, I think it's a mind game. And I think pushing through those lies we tell ourselves to make ourselves feel more isolated sort of demystifies that it's safe to stay quiet about it. And so I find talking about it, more people talk about it. And so

even in the writer's room, having other people sort of participate in the storytelling and sharing their vulnerabilities to match mine, it was a real aha moment. I was just like, oh, there's an epidemic of loneliness and no one's talking about it. No one's talking about how much we need each other. And it's such an interesting sort of juxtaposition with all the technology that we have these days where we can reach out and touch anyone around the world

with the tip of our fingers, but we don't really talk. We don't say anything. We don't say how we're actually doing. And so to me, I think the process of admitting that you're lonely and saying it out loud is also the antidote. Yes, yes. I'm not an expert in loneliness,

but we've had some episodes on it on the show and digging back into my memory. It's like a catch-22, but in a really pernicious way. And in this way, like loneliness becomes a real briar patch that the lonelier you get, like the more degraded your social skills become. And the, it's like the medicine you need gets harder and harder to get the more lonely you get. Does is that is that all land for you? for sure, I think that

there's a Regression that happens when you don't allow yourself to talk about yourself and to be seen and sort of Put your vulnerabilities out there, and I think that I mean it's cliche to say, but it's like riding a bike I think in my loneliest times when I was isolated, especially in my mid twenties, when I was in New York, I found reaching out and talking to people. It was weird at first, but it was just like, oh yeah, I know how to do this. And it's just sort of shaking off the rest and trusting that you're enough and that other people when they hear that you're lonely

or your loneliness is expressed to them in some way, that it'll be met with empathy and understanding. And I've always been met with that in a ways that have surprised me. You know? I'm thinking back to times in my own life when I've been lonely, and I think maybe part of what makes it hard to talk about

is just going back to what you said earlier, that the fear is that you're gonna be subjected to like judgment and shame because other people might think, well, there's a good reason you're lonely. Right. Yeah, like, oh, there or it's by choice. I think that there's this interesting sort of intersection of just being hyperindependent

and also enjoying my alone time, but figuring out how to. Satiate my loneliness and. Had that balance, because I do think that, like I'm very, I enjoy my solitude, you know, I live by myself, it's me and my dog and there's an inherent sort of peace and happiness there but I definitely feel those moments when it's just like, oh, I need company, I need companionship, I need to talk to someone and I think I sort of disabuse myself of the notion that that had to be romantic and I think for me what that allowed me to do was see the love that was already in my life that I wasn't taking advantage of you know from my friends and from my family and being like okay like when you take sort of the rom-com ideal idealized, romanticized sort of version of being pulled out of your alone time in that way. I was like, oh, I can be pulled out in ways that are platonic, but equally, if not more powerful

because there's a real selfless kind of exchange happening there, I feel. Yeah, so it kind of gets to a question I've had in my head since we've started this conversation is when you say alone, do you mean not in a romantic relationship or do you mean that plus I don't have any friends? I think it's a mixture of both. For me, it's currently not being in a romantic relationship, but also the number of friends in my life,

especially in my early 20s, mid 20s, I wanted to be this needless wonder that was giving to them but wouldn't take for myself. And so when I needed someone, I would just isolate and sort of lick my wounds. And then when I got better, I would then circle back with that energy restored. And so it was a one sided relationships platonically. So when I say alone, it's both it's this idea that. And again, when I was younger, it was more romantic love that I had elevated higher than any other kind of love. And then as I've, you know, 20 plus years of therapy, that sort of rebalanced itself. And it was

just like, okay, now that I'm no longer saying that this is the only kind of love that I'll allow to be a balm to my loneliness, how can I access the platonic friendship, familial love that's always been there that I kind of turned an eye to as being as important? And so later in life, it was more, oh, how can I access that? And it was just like, okay, I need to speak my needs and have more reciprocal relationships where I can say I'm not okay on a phone call with a friend and not feel like I'm a burden. And so it was doing that work that sort of allowed me to see that the loneliness that

I'm trying to get people to talk about is comprehensive and not just one-sided. You made reference to something that I see in reading a few articles about you too that part of your conditioning is This is my phrase maybe not fully accurate but kind of people pleasing or being attentive to other people's needs and Insufficiently attentive to your own am I articulating this accurately? Oh Yeah Much so I grew up in the church and there was this sort of martyrdom that was sort of praised and giving of yourself to the point of depletion was something

that was seen as a prize. And I think that fed into sort of the seed that germinated into people pleasing. And yeah, I think that was a huge part of where a lot of my hurdles came from. And I also think that I was just very much fiercely independent from a very young age and felt like I needed to have it all together all the time. And therefore, I needed to make sure that I didn't present as a burden to someone. And that's sort of what I equated my needs to as a burden, as opposed to just being valid.

I think the dance of all of those little T traumas of trying to sort of understand why I am the way that I am, I think I've come to. Embrace my needs and embrace the people that embrace my needs. This sort of counterproductive individualism that you're describing. Do you think that's all being part of a church where, you know, martyrdom is at the center of the whole story, or is it also rooted in stuff in your family, cultural stuff, do you think there's more going on? I think there's more. I mean, it's six-one, half-dozen the other. I think that there's definitely that piece of how I grew up and religion that shaped that part of my brain. But I also think that walking around the world as a black woman,

there's an expectation of, you know, black girl magic and we can fix everything. I mean, take a look at the news in the last 48 hours and get a sense of the expectation that is often put on black women's shoulders to fix the problem and not necessarily the grace for them to be the problem. And I think that all of that in combination, it makes for pretty heavy shoulders. And so it's been 20 plus years of therapy and unlearning those things that were sort of ingrained in me when I was younger. And as an adult, it's been really figuring out how to become a boundary of woman who can have needs and articulate what her needs are and be protective of my energy. Like that has been a big part of my journey.

I'm curious about that because I think there are a lot of people who struggle with setting boundaries. What are the tactics you've used that have helped you in this regard? There's kind of, I won't say there's schools of philosophy but they're just things that come to mind when you ask the question just now. It's like if it's not a hell yes, it's a hell no.

And no is a complete sentence. And I think that so often my no's have been given with consolation prizes of time and like, oh, I can't do this thing, but I'll do this other thing so that way you don't think some type of way about me. And also, yeah, it's making sure that the things that I'm saying yes to, they genuinely excite me and they're not just to placate someone else. Yeah, I read that you had a period of professional burnout

and a lot of it was because you were saying yes to things that you didn't want to say yes to. 100%. because you were saying yes to things that you didn't want to say yes to? A hundred percent. Again, the cultural lens of that is so much of my entry into this career was just through the lens of not enough and not abundance. So I had to say yes to things because there wasn't enough roles for people who looked like me. And even though I hated the material and the writer and the director and the producer, I said yes anyway because I didn't know if I would have a chance to do it again. And it was coming from this place of not enoughness on multiple levels. And it was also just like I had to step back and just sort of trust the universe that not

only am I enough, but because I do feel like I'm called to do this as a career, that the things that are meant for me are going to be meant for me, and I don't have to jump on all the things that come my way for fear of nothing else coming. And so just shifting that lack to abundance in mindset was helpful. I understand why I went the way of burnout because it was just, I was just trying to catch where catch can and just make something happen because I was told through what I saw on television that, oh, there's not space for someone who looks like me.

And if there is, there's a bunch of people that are trying to get that one spot. And so it's taken a while to sort of unlearn that piece, but it's definitely, that would contribute it to the burnout for sure. It's interesting on this scarcity mindset thing, like I really relate to that. We're in a world where there's plenty of space

for people who look like me. And nonetheless, I feel, I mean, I was in a conversation a couple months ago, I won't use her last name because she hasn't given me permission, but shout out to my friend Shruti, who we were talking about doing a project together, and she was like, dude,

you have such a scarcity mindset. I really do. And I'm a grown ass man. Like I've been around for a minute and I still feel this way. And I think it's what you said before about like trusting the universe. On some level, I trust the universe, I guess,

to the extent that I even understand that. But mathematically, there is no guarantee that if I don't take this thing in front of me, even though I'm a hell maybe, there is no guarantee that something else is gonna come in. And I don't know whether trust is even the right standpoint there.

Am I making any sense? Do you see what I'm still confused about? Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think for me, this is where I feel like my faith comes in. And again, I use that as a lowercase F faith, like, which I think, and I truly believe, necessitates doubt.

They can't exist without each other. And so for me, it's not coming from this fully, you know, magically evolved place where I'm just like, I'm walking around the world and I'm like, it's all coming to me, you know, like I still have fear about trusting in the universe and that those things will happen. But I think I also have to consider who is the one doing the believing. I mean, you're smart, talented, you work your ass off, like all of those things are true. And so it makes the faith believing in myself a little bit easier. It's not without doubt, but I feel like the doubt is necessary for me to believe instead of doubt,

if that makes sense. Just to put a fine point on that, I think you're saying that it's not so much about trusting the universe. It's about trusting you are good at what you do, and obviously you are an expression of the universe, so it's not completely unrelated, but it's about having the faith and confidence that, yeah, I'm good

at what I do. I don't need to say yes to everything. Because I am good and hardworking and always on the lookout, I will find something that is a hell yes. Yeah. And that's the thing. I've like given up trying to predict what that hell yes will be, because I've been surprised and delighted every time something has happened and it's my preparedness meeting an opportunity. And that being the okay yes, this is what it means to trust that like I've done the work.

There's this Steve Martin quote, that's be so good they can't ignore you. That is also part of it, working on my craft, making sure that I'm reliable on set, that I'm doing the things that I need to do to be good at what I do, not for someone else, but for me. And then when those opportunities present themselves, my confidence can sort of take over and be like,

oh yeah, I'm prepared for this. I know what I'm doing. To me, all of that scans less as a trust or a faith and more like a calculated risk. The calculated risk is I'm gonna work my ass off. I'm gonna be prepared for whatever opportunities come my way and I'm gonna say no to stuff that I'm lukewarm on and just hope,

realistically hope, not blind hope, that the right thing will come. For sure. I think where, for me, the faith piece comes in, it's, there are, I was gonna say millions, there may be not millions of actors that are equally as prepared and as on their shittism I am, but I think that I would be foolish to think

that my preparedness and my commitment to the craft eclipses anyone else's, you know what I mean? Where it's just like we're all working on our craft and doing the thing. And so where the faith comes in is that I believe I will be given opportunities that are hell yes, that'll allow me to express this gift I believe that I've been given and share it

in whatever scale that looks like. I think that's why oftentimes when people ask me about what does success look like, for me it's never numbers of followers on Instagram or awards or even money. For me, it's working with people that sharpen me. Iron sharpens iron and being able to help people in any way that I can through the work that I do. And so that also helps, I think, in sort of sussing out what the hell yeses

are because they look different for me than they look for other people. I do think that those opportunities that are meant for me and my particular expression of my gift are meant for me. Like you said, that is calculated. For me, that's a calculated risk, but there's sort of a soup song of faith that helps, I think, carry that risk. Yes. Yes, totally. No, I agree. I think my way of putting it overlooks the so-called faith or downplays it when actually it is required. You're talking about what opportunities go to whom and how you in this incredibly competitive career that you've chosen for yourself, how you navigate that.

And this little riff is coming to mind from Sharon Salzberg, who's kind of a legendary meditation teacher. And she talks about professional envy, or envy in any context, as being based on a misunderstanding. And the misunderstanding, or the false assumption, is that whatever thing, you know, award, recognition, relationship, whatever you were hoping for that went to somebody else was actually headed to you and was intercepted by the other person.

When in fact that is rarely true. I find that really useful. Does that make sense to you? Oh, a hundred percent. It's so funny. That just is a visual of just something coming to you and someone tackling it out of your arms. The envy is, I think, partners with the scarcity mindset

in that, oh, they have the thing that's meant for me as opposed to they have the thing that was meant for them, and mine is still en route, you know? Or, but know, or, but yeah, no, that definitely resonates. Well, let's go back to rom-coms for a second, because you talked about how you grew up loving them, but I know that that love was not uncomplicated.

Can you talk about rom-coms? Oh, my goodness. I love a rom-com. I read recently that I was talking about, like, the reason why people watch the same television shows over and over again is because it's predictable and it helps sort of counter their anxiety. And rom-coms by and large are really formulaic and predictable. But it's always like, well, how will they mess it up?

And how will they fix it? And how will the sidekicks come in with the comedy? And so I was always attracted to the story of people finding each other and the fun ways in which John Hughes figured out how to make it happen and Nora Ephron and et cetera. So I love love. My parents have been married. It'll be, oh God, 48 years in February? I think 48. And they are deeply in love,

which could fuck up someone who's just like in a real world and has this sort of like idealized version of love in front of them. And so I consumed a lot of rom-coms and when Harry Met Sally is one of my favorite and I love that it starts out enemies to lovers. It's very Shakespearean, Taming of the Shrew. I loved sort of a complicated woman,

being figured out by a guy, but it's simplified I think real life in a way that's unhelpful. So that, I think, is where the tension sort of lied. You know, it's funny, but I'm not a huge rom-com watcher. I don't mind them. But I have very similar to the problem in that my parents are very happily married. And that fucked me up a little bit because I brought unrealistic expectations to my marriage. Mm.

Yeah. That's real. Although I will say that over time what I learned is that my parents' relationship was more complicated than I thought it was. Yeah. I think they had and have a happy relationship, and as they got a little older and a little less worried about keeping up appearances,

like it came out that they went to couples counseling for a while and, you know, that my dad was not quite as affectionate behind the scenes as he was in front of us. And, you know, I don't think any of that is to diminish the strength of their union. I think it actually makes it more interesting, but it did.

I wish I had known that in my 20s. Yeah. Oh my God, yeah. I remember being over a friend's house when I was like 15 or 16 and their parents were arguing in front of us. And I was so, I wanted that from my parents so badly. Not that I wanted them to like hate each other.

And I don't think my friend's parents did, but it was just, it diversified what love looked like to me. I think that my parents also grew up in a time where the deal that they made required some particular roles that they were playing that may not come organically, I think, to my mom or my dad. Right.

And also when you dress all of that up in the church, there's, you know, a subservience that happens that I just bugs me to no end when it comes to my mom. But she loves it. You know, she loves taking care of my dad and my dad loves providing for my mom and they're in these very sort of specific roles that feel anachronistic, but I know it works for them, but I also wish I had some dirt on them growing up. But your issue with rom-coms, I think goes deeper than that. It's also a kind of a representation issue too. Well, yeah, I mean, it was primarily white homogeny was the theme.

I did not see a black female plus size protagonist allowed to have love. And when you see that subtextually beaten over your head every time you watch a rom-com, you start to believe that you're not allowed to have it. And if it's there, it's hard won. And it's, you know, you have to be so grateful for it. And like, you know, it helps sort of solidify the needless wonder of just like, okay,

if love happens upon me, because it's not meant to, And like, you know, it helps sort of solidify the needless wonder of just like, okay, if love happens upon me because it's not meant to, I have to white-knuckle it and hold on to it and it comes from this place of, yeah, scarcity and undeservedness. And so it was a really interesting indoctrination into what I thought love was supposed to look like to include who was allowed to have it. Mm-hmm. Okay, so into this very complex psychological environment walks Hulu with the offer to make your own show,

which you've now made, How to Die Alone. And so, like, we talked about this a little bit at the beginning, but that must have been a huge but not uncomplicated moment for you. 100%. Well, it started out at HBO. I got a deal for development there. And so I worked on it at HBO for about six years before I brought it over to Hulu. But in that process, it was again, because I didn't want it to be cliched and being like, this chunky black girl is going to find love and it's going to be a-okay. Like I didn't want it to be trite. So I wanted to really explore what it means when the princess is not waiting for the white knight,

but she decides to save herself. What does that journey look like? And when you become activated to change your life for the better, what does that really look like? And that includes making the mistakes. That includes going down the road of romanticism and realizing, oh yeah, I'm still lonely.

You know, like, oh yeah, I'm still, that didn't fix the thing. The call is coming from inside the house. And so I wanted to create a character for myself that allowed me the emotions that I didn't see characters like me allowed to have on screen. And that's the complicated, neurotic, self-deprecating

sort of character you root for that you want to see win. And so I wanted to sort of have this anti-hero in the character of Mel, who I play in How to Die Alone. And it was fun and scary to put all of my shit on her and have a room full of writers explore her neuroses and being like, yeah, you know what, I think her problem is. And I'm like, hey, wait a minute, that's me.

Therapy by committee a little bit, but I felt really lucky to be given the opportunity to give myself this love story. I wanna talk more about the plot of the show and then I have some key moments I wanna ask you about, but just staying with you in the writer's room, there must've been moments where you got a little defensive. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

There's like, when we're breaking story and understanding the characters why I don't know if many people understand how deep you go in writers rooms where you have to ask the question to understand the motivation so that way you're actually writing characters and not caricatures in order to do that you have to go deep. And so there's definitely moments where one of the characters, my character sort of wants to be involved with, she can't really say how she feels, and she feels stuck. We spent maybe an hour in the room being like,

why can't she say the thing? What is keeping her from saying the thing? I couldn't even express at the table why, but I know that I experienced that sort of cat's got your tongue type feeling where it's just like I don't know how to say the thing. And drilling down to it, it's just like, okay, yeah, it's a fear. You don't want to say the thing. You don't want to put it out there because you're fear of rejection. And it's just like, cool, cool, cool. And then texting my therapist being like, we're still on for tonight. Great.

So have some more to unpack about rejection. It just came up today in the writers room. Let's get to work. So it's real. It's real. I am in a somewhat similar situation in that I've been working for six years on a memoir and I have people help me with it, and so the main character is not named Mel, it's named Dan. And so we do a lot of these conversations, it's like, yeah, the main character in this book is unlikable.

And I'm like, I'm sitting right here. I'm literally right here. Can we not? Can we not? Oh, God. I can't even imagine showing up as myself has been the journey of my adult life and a memoir to me. I can't even, it's putting it, pinned to paper and putting that truth out there in a really tangible way. That's impressive. It would scare the shit out of me, but.

It's definitely scary. Coming up, Natasha talks about the perks of therapy, her daily non-negotiables, and her current relationship to meditation. Being a part of a royal family might seem enticing, but more often than not, it comes at the expense of everything, like your freedom, your privacy, and sometimes even your head. Even the Royals is a podcast from Wondery that pulls back the curtain on royal families, past and present, from all over the world

to show you the darker side of what it means to be royalty. Like the true stories behind the six wives of Henry VIII, whose lives were so much more than just divorced beheaded died, divorced beheaded survived. Or Esther of Burundi, a princess who fled her home country to become France's first black supermodel. There's also Queen Christina of Sweden, an icon who traded in dresses for pants,

had an affair with her lady-in-waiting, and eventually gave up her crown because she refused to get married. Throw in her involvement in a murder and an attempt to become Queen of Poland, and you have one of the most unforgettable legacies in royal history. Follow even the royals on the Wondery app,

or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge Even the Royals ad free right now on Wondery Plus. Hey, it's Guy Raz here, and you might know me as the host of How I Built This. Well, did you know about my other show, The Great Creators? It's where I interview some of the most celebrated actors and musicians of our time about their

life, their craft, and where they find their ideas. You'll hear giants like Tom Hanks. Very rarely do I have a conversation, quite frankly, like this one guy. Jason Sudeikis talked about how he became Ted Lasso. People will say to us, you know, the show saved me. I will say back, me too. Plus musicians like Ellie Goulding, Bjork, the show saved me. I will say back, me too. Plus, musicians like Ellie Golding, Bjork, and Lainey Wilson. I remember having that crazy feeling of I am going to do this. I'm going to be on that stage.

You can check out our newest season and browse our whole catalog, 80 plus episodes, by following The Great Creators on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to The Great Creators early and ad free right now on Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to the great creators early and ad free right now on Wondery Plus. A quick reminder to come check out what I'm doing over at danharris.com. This is a huge new venture for me. I'd love to get your support and your feedback. And a reminder that the 10% Happier app is now called Just Happier and they've got personalized meditation plans

and fresh ways to meditate on and off the cushion. Download the new Happier Meditation app today to discover meditation that evolves with you. So tell us the basic plot of How to Die Alone. Tell us the basic plot of How to Die Alone. How to Die Alone follows Mel, who is a black, fat, plus-size neurotic who works at JFK Airport, and she drives the accessibility vehicles. And she has a near-death experience that awakens her to the fact that she hasn't really been living.

She's never flown before and works at an airport and feels like she wants to take off in life. Over the course of the series, you see this woman who, because of this accident, becomes activated, almost like a Roomba. When you turn on one of those vacuums for the first time, those robot vacuums, in order to clean up a room, they hit wall after wall after wall to understand sort of the parameters and then they get to cleaning. And so you see this character hit wall after wall after wall,

but the Roomba keeps going. And so we see her keep going. We see her activate, make mistakes, but learn as she goes. And this journey that she goes on, it's seeking to be less lonely. And she makes mistakes coming out of the gate, thinking that that is in partnership,

that is gonna be a relationship. And then over the course of the series, you see her realize she's the one that has to save herself and she has to love herself. And that's the rom-com, that's sort of the core thrust of the series. I want to get to the inciting event there though, and some of the learnings that Mel has

that I think are useful for all of us. But let me start even before that, which is her pre-Rumba sort of sleepwalking. Yeah. Which seems a very common pitfall before that, which is her pre-Rumba sort of sleepwalking, which seems a very common pitfall that we can just be sleepwalking through our lives and unaware of stuff we're missing. Yeah, the show is in some ways a love letter

to me in my early 20s when I felt that way, when I felt like life was this performance art piece that I was showing up every day, clocking into the performance, and I would do what I needed to do to get through the day and I would come back. And then just to run that model all the way to the end, I was like, this isn't living. I was like, this is just, this is sleepwalking. This is doing something that doesn't feel like I'm making the most of what life is supposed to be.

And we see her sort of going through the motions at work. We see the character expect less of herself and has gotten used to being predictable and becomes aware of this after this near-death experience and wants to surprise herself, wants to make mistakes, and wants to have a story to tell. There's this line in the pilot where the woman she's talking to says,

when my life flashes before my eyes, I wanna see something. Is she's like, I wanna see something too. I wanna actually see something. Yes. She's like, I want to see something too. I want to actually see something. And so she decides to start living. So that was the scene I was honing in on. I admitted to you before we started rolling that Hulu sent me a screener and then I waited too long and it expired.

So I haven't seen it yet, but I've seen some of the dialogue from the scene after the near death experience where Mel is talking is in the hospital. And there are two little moments. One is where the nurse says to her, I tried the emergency contact number we had on file for you.

Is it still? And then Mel says, that's my phone number. And the nurse says, you're your own emergency contact? And Mel whispers, yeah. And then one other scene, there's a woman, who I think you just kind of referenced, who's in the hospital with Mel, and the woman says, there are three kinds of death. Physical death, we all know and write poems about.

Then there's the kind when people stop caring about you. And the worst kind is when you stop caring about yourself. And then Mel says, in that case, I died a long time ago. How autobiographical is that? Very. I think that realizing that I could prioritize my needs and realizing that I was worthy of time and attention and care didn't come naturally to me.

I definitely spent my early 20s not caring very much about myself. There was a dissociative aspect to that of not thinking about it and trying to be so busy that other people's needs and wants and projects eclipse mine. I think that realization, and this is when I started therapy in my 20s,

so it was about 20 plus years ago. Being in therapy, one of the first conversations I've had when I was 22 was this feels like an indulgence. Like it feels silly to be sitting across from someone I'm paying to talk to. Like there are people out there that are starving and I just thought it was silly and luckily my therapist at the time disabused me of that notion but there was a lack of care for myself and I think that that line of dialogue when writing it, those are the moments when it's just like,

am I gonna say this out loud? Am I gonna let people know that this is how I felt? And it is a kind of death when you completely disregard human life and it's yours. And I think learning to acknowledge my value and my worth and to know that I'm worth spending however much a session to talk about my thoughts and needs and feelings, that's important.

And my voice is important. And taking time to rest is important. It doesn't mean I'm weak if I need help. And like all of those building blocks of knowledge that I gathered over the course of my own work on myself were just necessary, but they also alerted me to the fact of how bad it was, you know? It's just like, oh yeah, that was not a great time.

Why is it not self-indulgent to do therapy? I don't think it's self-indulgent to do therapy, but what's the argument for it? I don't think it's self-indulgent to do therapy, but what's the argument for it? For me, it comes down to letting your voice literally be heard in an environment that feels safe, because I do think it elicits a truth that wouldn't necessarily be gained if

you're talking to someone who is biased, meaning that they're a part of your life in a way that would take away from you being completely unfiltered. And I recently convinced my mom to go. And it was a long, it was, I mean, again, I've been in therapy for 20 plus years. So I've been preaching the gospel of therapy to her for a long time and she was the biggest skeptic. Again, she comes out of the church. And so she really was just like, why do I need a therapist?

I got Jesus. And I was like, you need both. You need both. And I talked to her recently and I could perceive a shift in her ability to communicate her wants and needs. Again, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree in that respect. And I commented on it. I was just like, oh, this is so cool to see you

speaking with such clarity. And she's like, yeah, I've been going to therapy. I was like, you're still going? Because I gave up hope that she was gonna be consistent with it. She's like, yeah, every week. I think that is the value of it. I think that it's not indulgent to accept that your mind

to accept that your mind and your emotional health is just as important as your physical health. It took me a long time to equate those things because I was just like, oh yeah, going to the doctor because I have an ulcer, that makes sense. But going to a doctor because I have anxiety and depression, I should be strong enough to fix that on my own. That whole idea of just feeling culpable for a chemical imbalance was hard to be like,

okay, I have to let that go and be like, no, I have needs that need to be met, and this is a great way to meet those needs. Yeah. Especially since the anxiety and stress is what's causing the ulcer. Right. Real talk, real talk.

Okay, I love when I have somebody well known on the show asking them about like their non-negotiables, the stuff that they like have to do to keep their shit together. You talked about therapy. What else would fit in that category for you? Alone time, I have a rule on set. And when my assistant is sort of working with my schedule

that I have one hour uninterrupted before I engage with people, I'll go through hair and makeup and do the thing. Then I'm just like, alone time is in trailer. They have a little sign that's just like, please don't disturb. And it's just for me to be with myself. So much of what I do requires something from me

for someone else, talking to the production designer, talking to Post, talking to the line producer, being out there, especially on this project. I was EP, I was co-show runner, and I was the star of the show, and I was in every scene. And so it got to the point where I would wake up and nothing was mine in my day. And it was a willing sacrifice and a joyous one

because it was manifesting my dream, but I realized I was like, oh, I need to have one hour where I come back to myself, listen to myself and have that stillness. So that's pretty non-negotiable and therapy is non-negotiable. Those are big for me. What's your relationship to meditation these days? Oh, Dan.

I'm not asking as a bully. I'm not asking as a bully, I'm just curious. I know, I know, I know. It is the thing that makes the most sense of me and I fell off the proverbial wagon. I was in Thailand shooting the new season of White Lotus for five and a half months. It was very interesting to be in an environment

that promotes meditation and supports it in every part of its DNA. I do struggle with it, but it's something that it's not the kind of struggle where I shelve it and walk away. I wrestle with it. So I will have moments where it's just like, well, today I'm going to have grace with myself because I'm shooting for 18 hours, but I'm just going to make sure that I check the thoughts as they come in and I find it more of the walking meditation versus sitting down and being with myself in that stillness. I do think that there is work that I want to do to understand my resistance to that quiet

and my fear of that quiet sometimes because so often my escape is just to turn the volume up on everything and make sort of, you know, this make it so busy that it feels like I'm listening to myself, but I'm really not. Yeah, I'm rambling to say I am a student of meditation, but I'm not the top of the class. I'm just curious about this.

So the primary obstacle I thought you were gonna say is not having enough time, but then as your answer went on, it sounds like there's something deeper, maybe it's additional, maybe it's instead, I don't know, of it being a little terrifying to be alone with yourself. In that way, yes. I think it's a little bit of both. I think my schedule is absurd most of the time

because I'm very busy, but I do think that being still and quiet with myself, like I think I said before, like alone time is important to me and I like being alone, but it doesn't necessarily mean I'm listening to myself or really sitting in a stillness and clearing my mind. It's like vegging out and watching, you know, TV or doing the crossword or doing something that keeps me busy. And I think the stillness in that expression of being alone, I can get a little antsy, a little fidgety.

And part of that, I don't know if this is the ADHD and just not being able to sit still, but it's also, I do think that it can be unsettling, quiet can be unsettling for me a little bit. Yeah, well, you're definitely not alone. It could be unsettling for many, many people. I think part of the point is to increase your okayness, quotient and curiosity about like what's going on

in those moments. If there's an ADHD component, then you might want to think about moving to a walking meditation instead, because it'll freak you out in the same ways that I think are very helpful without bumping you up against your brain chemistry in ways that are unhelpful, if that makes sense.

No, for sure. I felt like when we did the walking meditations at the retreat, I found them the most natural in terms of like, oh yeah, this feels right. But I do think that I would be wimping out to say I haven't noticed resistance to traditional meditation because because of the quiet and the beauty of getting to know you and your relationship to meditation has made that okay. And not in the way that you think, do you know what I mean? Like not that the journey to finding meditation practice,

a meditation practice, I feel like you celebrate that curiosity and that journey in a way a perfectionist like myself can just be all or nothing. And so I think that's what I've appreciated about getting to know you and getting to know meditation through your lens. It's allowed me to have grace with myself in this process as opposed to trying to be the star student

of Buddhist meditation. First thing to say is Natasha referenced the retreat. She and I did a retreat together with a few other people in late 2023. So that's what she's referencing there. And in terms of the grace and the imperfection, which is talk about non-negotiable. Imperfection is the only, I mean, unless you're like enlightened, imperfection is the only

thing. The only way, yeah. Most of my wisdom about meditation is stolen from Joseph Goldstein, who you know because he taught that retreat. So this I'm stealing from him, which is that struggle, if there's any sort of struggle in your practice, in your case, right now, the struggle is, it's really, it can be terrifying to be with yourself in that way. That struggle is a very useful feedback.

Instead of taking it as, oh, I'm failing at this, so I'm out, deuces, it's really like, oh, well, well, let me get curious about this, because there's something here, the courage to just kind of sit in that day after day, or every other day after every other day, whatever your cadence of meditation is, that's where the benefits will come over time. You're nodding your head, but it does make sense to you what I'm saying. Oh, yeah, it resonates completely. Anything that I have, I was going to say, like anything that I've struggled to get has been like the juice has been worth the squeeze.

To me, I feel that way about meditation where the juice is inherently worth the squeeze. And I feel it having the lens of grace when I consider my approach and my practice has been my saving grace, literally, of just being like, okay, it's not this thing that... You know, so many, like, my Duolingo app, it's just, like, rewarding me for every day,

and if you miss a day, it's just, like, it punishes you, or, like, says, really? You're not coming back? And it's one of those things where it's just, like, it's rewarding something that's not sort of untenable as a practice. There are gonna be days that I miss, there's gonna be moments where it's shorter and that doesn't mean that it's not as good

as the longer sits. And so I've allowed myself to have flexibility in my POV of meditation where rigidity and doing things perfect is so, where my brain usually goes and it's a very black and white all or nothing thinking. I do think that that's the thing that is continually drawing me back to meditation

as a practice is it's teaching me grace and it's in the process, you know? Yes. I sometimes say meditation is where perfectionism comes to die. Whoo, don't it though? Don't it though? It's real.

It's just real. I mean, the way my mind runs and I refer to myself as neuro spicy, I can be my biggest critic and be my biggest sort of hindrance in allowing myself to be perfectly imperfect. And it's a daily mind game in terms of just how I move through the world, but I think in my relationship to meditation, being perfectly imperfect and embracing what each sit is and not judging it and not thinking it's supposed to be

a certain thing and just allowing it to be what it needs to be for me in that moment. Sounds hyperbolic, but it is life-changing to be like, oh, there's power in accepting the now and accepting myself in this particular moment and not berating myself for not being what I think I should be in a specific set or in life generally. Yeah. I hear all that and I think notwithstanding your criticism for having not meditated with

enough ardor while you were in Thailand, your practice sounds pretty good to me. It's consistently there for me and I think a tool that I use and something that I've been thinking about and I'd be curious as to your opinion of this expression of meditation of just, it is periodically throughout the day when necessary, just reminding myself, oh, that's a thought. Yes, yes, yes. And like, I can't stress enough how life-changing it is to be in the driver's seat

in terms of how frequently my thoughts, our thoughts can get away from us and just allowing myself to put that checkpoint throughout my day is another expression of meditation for me. And also, I think it's the small moments of breath. When you're on set for 18 hours and you're in wild, exotic places where creature comforts are way in the rear view mirror. Finding a moment on a rickety boat to close your eyes and

just breathe and have gratitude. That is how I find myself expressing meditation consistently. But I think, again, it is a practice and I wanna grow and continue to get to know myself in that way. That all sounds awesome. Yeah, I'm sure you signed an NDA with regard to White Lotus season three, but I've heard, and this has nothing to do

with the actual plot points, that there are some Buddhist themes in the season. Can you confirm or deny that? I can confirm that. I think Mike said that in the interview and I was like, whew, okay, now I have something to talk about. Yeah, it's definitely a theme this season,

which is funny to be on a project that is sort of walking in lockstep on my own journey outside of it of questioning and exploring and I think Mike does an exceptional job of exploring those themes of spirituality as it relates to our carnal desires of material things. And I think that's what he does every season, is he sort of asks more questions than he gives answers in that regard. And I think he'll do the same thing this season.

Mike is Mike White, who's the creator, writer, director of White Lotus. And Mike, if you're listening, you're invited on the show anytime. We'd love to talk to you about the season three. All right, you mentioned carnal desires you're invited on the show anytime. Love to talk to you about the season three. All right, you mentioned Carnal Desires. I'm gonna ask a question. You do not have to answer it,

and we can delete it if you don't like the question, but I'm curious, given you've made and are now releasing a show called How to Die Alone, what is your relationship status these days? I'm single, but I'm not looking, I'm open. And I think that's a marked difference of me now versus me at the start of my journey. I was like a heat seeking missile trying to find this,

like, where is he? Where is he? And now I have fallen so deeply in love with myself and like any relationship, it's not perfect every day, but I can say now I love myself and that's not something, I don't know if I'm gonna get emotional. It's not something I could say before. It's taken a long time and a lot of therapy and a lot of work to get to a place thing I could say before.

It's taken a long time and a lot of therapy and a lot of work to get to a place that me as I am today, pencils down, I love her. I would love to share her with someone. When or if that happens, it will be great. But I know that I'm whole now. I love love. I still watch rom-coms, you know? And I still believe in love and I just am now open and I'm not in a place where I'm approaching it from a sense of lack.

I think I now have something to offer. That's where I am. Well, I think it's amazing what you've achieved. That is a huge round trip to have made. That's not a small thing. Self-love is an interesting topic. I mean, as you know, I'm very interested in it because it's different from romantic love.

Probably not supposed to quote Woody Allen anymore, but that great line about masturbation is sex with someone I love. Right, right, right. Self-love is different from romantic love, right? Woody Allen notwithstanding. When you say, I love her, pencils down, what do you mean specifically by that?

For me, that is putting my best interests and needs first. Yeah. And again, not to get too woo-woo about it, that is putting my best interests and needs first. And again, not to get too woo-woo about it, but it is reparenting myself and looking at myself as that four or five-year-old girl that didn't feel like she was enough, or that 16-year-old girl that was, thought that she could be loved if she was thinner or her skin were lighter or if her hair was straighter.

It's grabbing that girl with my hands and saying, you are enough. It's saying you have everything that you need. Sometimes loving myself looks like ordering a pizza from, you know, John and Vinny's and saying no to a gala and like a carpet that, you know, my PR people want me to do and be like, no, I just need to just love on myself a little bit. I need to squeeze my dog.

I need to take a walk. I need to say in this moment how I think or feel. And the way we express love to ourself, it's just as diverse as the ways we express love to the people in our lives. It's listening. It's being there and showing up for myself. It's consistency.

When I make promises to myself, I keep them. And again, it's not a perfect love. And there's some days where I'm better at it than others. But the baseline, the sort of consistency, the common denominator in how I see myself and how I approach myself is from a place of love and compassion. That makes complete sense to me.

And it reminds me of like, so there's self-love, which is a cultural term, but then there's self-compassion, which is a cultural term, but then there's self-compassion, which is a scientific term. And the person who has spearheaded that research, who's been a huge influence on me, her name is Kristin Neff, and she's a researcher at the University of Texas Austin. And one of the questions she teaches people to ask

in order to practice self-compassion is what do I need right now? And that's self-love in action. 100%, 100%. And asking the question requires you to listen to the answer. Yes. And I think that is everything.

And it's been life-changing for me to actually ask myself those questions and answer them and then follow through on those needs and those wants and those things that will help in those moments. It's been so much fun talking to you. It's been hard won this get for me getting you on the show. Is there something that you were hoping we would get to that we haven't yet gotten to? No, no.

It's been such a joy to chat with you. I respect you and you're such a thoughtful human and individual but you also are just excellent at what you do and it's just been a joy chatting with you and talking real I think too and I don't know if you find this too that like where you are in your journey you want to talk to people who like can fucking be real and like really talk about real shit. And it's such a treat to be in your presence because I know I don't have to,

I can just be me and just, we can talk real. So thank you for that. Right back at you. Thank you for that. Before I let you go, can you remind everybody of the name? Yes. Of your new show?

100%. Please check out How to Die Alone. It premieres this fall, September 13th on Hulu. Gotta check it out. And when does White Lotus come out after that? White Lotus will be out at TBD. That's above my pay grade. Got it.

But it'll be out hopefully soon. I want to just plug a few more things on your behalf. She was in Wonka, which I didn't actually know when I took my son to see it a couple months ago, so it was so cool when you showed up on the screen. Also of course in the like landmark HBO show Insecure, which she was on and also wrote for. She's written for SNL. So lots of, just go to IMDB and watch everything Natasha's been in. I love it. Thank you again. So great to see you and I'm so excited to watch the show.

Thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks again to Natasha Rothwell. So great to have her on the show. Don't forget her new show on Hulu, How to Die Alone. And before I let you go, a few other notes. We are dropping some links in the show notes to episodes that are similar to this one or that play on themes that we discuss here. We've got a couple episodes on self-compassion from Kristin Neff and we've got our non-negotiables playlist which includes other boldface names Bill Hader, Esther Perel, Jada Pinkett Smith, Glenn Doyle and many more.

And finally and most importantly I want to thank everybody who works so hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our production manager. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme. If you like 10% happier, and I hope you do, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.