Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - The Things Nobody’s Talking To Jada Pinkett Smith About

Episode Date: July 12, 2024

On hitting Rock Bottom, de-armoring, and worthiness.Jada Pinkett Smith is a multifaceted artist whose career spans over 30 years. Raised in Baltimore, she studied dance and theater at the Baltimore School for the Arts before moving to Los Angeles to pursue acting. Her breakthrough came in with the NBC series A Different World, followed by her first feature film, Menace II Society. From there, Pinkett Smith became a global star, appearing in numerous films like The Nutty Professor, Set It Off, The Matrix franchise and the comedic hit Girls Trip.In addition to her acting work, Pinkett Smith has also executive produced projects such as Karate Kid, Free Angela and All Political Prisoners, The Queen Latifah Show, Red Table Talk, Red Table Talk: The Estefans, as well as Queen Cleopatra and Queen Njinga for Netflix. She expanded her skills further as the host of the Emmy award-winning talk show, Red Table Talk, where she engages in multigenerational discussions about social and cultural issues with her daughter, Willow Smith, and mother, Adrienne Banfield-Norris. She is now heading out on a worldwide book tour to promote her memoir, Worthy (a NYT Bestseller).Related Episodes:Non-Negotiables PlaylistSign up for Dan’s weekly newsletter hereFollow Dan on social: Instagram, TikTokTen Percent Happier online bookstoreSubscribe to our YouTube ChannelOur favorite playlists on: Anxiety, Sleep, Relationships, Most Popular EpisodesFull Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/tph/podcast-episode/jadaSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It's the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello everybody. How are we doing? Remember a few months ago when Jada Pinkett Smith put out a memoir and basically Dominated the news cycle for a few weeks. Everybody was talking about her marriage that infamous slap at the Oscars Scientology, etc so my team and I actually we took a look at the book and decided that the most interesting stuff was none of the above I

interviewed her right in the middle of all of the sound and fury, and I asked her about the stuff that nobody else was asking her about. We've sat on the interview for a minute just to let all of the other noise die down, but we are bringing it to you now. Her book, as you may remember, is called Worthy, and it largely concerns itself with her extraordinarily intense effort to understand herself and the world. She is one of the most dedicated, and I never know the right term for this,

but let's go with spiritual seeker, which I don't love, but it's apt anyway. Jada is one of the most dedicated spiritual seekers I have come across in a minute, definitely among celebrities. She has studied with Buddhist masters. She's done ayahuasca, therapy, meditation, definitely among celebrities. She has studied with Buddhist masters, she's done ayahuasca, therapy, meditation, you name it. So today we're gonna talk about dropping your habitual storylines and tapping into something larger, suffering with grace, surrendering, peaceful striving,

why some people like martyrdom, what it was like for her to hit rock bottom, the process of removing her armor, and why the concept of worthiness is so important to her. Just to say this is part of a little summer experiment we're running here on the show where we're doing a series of celebrity interviews. We're calling it Bold Face.

In July, we're doing Abby Wambach, RuPaul, and Jada, Jada Pinkett Smith, coming up. Listening on Audible helps your imagination soar. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, new ways of thinking. Listening can lead to positive change in your mood, your habits, and ultimately your overall well-being.

Audible has the best selection of audiobooks without exception, along with popular podcasts and exclusive Audible originals all in one easy app. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free 30-day Audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.ca. How much do you really know about Black history? Like, really you really know about black history? Like really, really know.

Wandery's new podcast, Black History for Real, we use black history's most overlooked figures back into their rightful place in culture and the world at large. Listen to Black History for Real on the Wandery app or wherever you get your podcast. Jada Pinkett Smith, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you for having me. As you know, we are asking a bunch of smart people what their non-negotiables are, like what are the practices or precepts that you have to do every day or maybe most days. So what say you?

What are yours? Well, first and foremost, you know, I wake up about 5 a.m. in the morning and I meditate. Sometimes it's a sitting meditation, sometimes it's a walking meditation. And then I will do some kind of physical activity, whether it's Qigong or yoga. And then I am going to read some scripture on some kind. physical activity, whether it's Qigong or yoga. And then I am gonna read some scripture of some kind. And then another non-negotiable for me as well is like these days I am really trying to live my life

through my relationship with the great Supreme. The Great Supreme is probably one of the most important relationships in my life today. Just in regards to my relationships and my work, just everything has to come through my understanding and my connection with the Great Supreme before anything else. What do you mean when you say great supreme? I would say God, you know, usually or universal source. Um, that, that power that's higher than myself. Do you have a specific conception of God,

like through a Christian lens, or is it more diffuse than that? You know, I grew up, my grandmother, you know, while everybody else was going to church, I grew up through an organization called the Ethical Society where I learned about so many different religions. My grandmother was an atheist, but she wanted me to be able to choose whether I wanted to believe in God or not and what God I wanted. And so I do have a specific vision of God, but I usually keep it to myself because, you know,

when people talk about religion and politics, things can get real sticky. Yeah. So you have a view of what God is, but you don't try to voice that on other people. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no. I think everybody, you know, my personal understanding of the Great Supreme is that it comes in many forms and has many faces. And so, you know, I leave it to when I'm speaking about the Great Supreme for people to envision what that means for them, because what it means for me is like,

you know, whatever. But yeah, I just leave it to whatever form and whatever face appeals to the person that's listening or that I'm talking to. You said before that having a relationship with God or the great supreme is central for you in terms of managing your ego. How does that work? Yeah, I think that for me, just recognizing that sometimes that level of self-centeredness can make us believe that we're all that exists, right? And I think for me, staying in contact with my understanding of the Great Supreme

helps me to use my energies to be in service to something far greater than myself. Right? And so trying to always think about the greater good, you know, versus what is self-serving. It's tricky, you know, because that's quite a practice. It's really a practice to even have the level of discernment to recognize the difference between something that's serving you and something that's serving something greater than yourself. Yeah. You talk in the book, Worthy, about daily practice that you try to do. You call it surrender practice. That seems relevant to what we're discussing now.

Is that? Yeah, absolutely. Can you describe it? So surrender practice. So often when, you know, my ego will grab me into thinking that I need to act on something or I need to push to make something happen or what have you, it's releasing and letting go in the moment. Right?

Because anytime that I feel like I have to do something in the sense of making something happen, that usually is an indication that I need to let go. You know, if I'm looking for a specific outcome for something, which I'm so used to, right? I'm just learning how to let go, take a moment and just let it be and just give it over. And that's something that I have to do often throughout the day, because I'm so used to thinking of a specific outcome for things and putting all of my energy towards making that outcome happen. And I'm just learning now as I get older that A, I'm not that intelligent to always know what the best outcome should be, and that the great

supreme has it all. And so I can just relax and let go, you know, that there is an energy far more intelligent than myself that has things under control. And so yeah, when that little controller within me, you know, of course we want to put our effort towards, you know, life. We have to live life and we do things and make things happen, but not allowing my little controller and that little ego within go, no, but it has to be this way and it has to turn out like this, you know? It's kind of like, no, we're here, we're in the flow, it's all good. I don't know if this will rhyme with what you're saying, but I come out of the Buddhist tradition, and I know you know plenty about Buddhism, but in Buddhism we talk a lot about non-attachment to results, so that we can try really hard on something, you know, a book project, a video project, a business, a parenting endeavor, whatever it is, we can try really hard, but we exist in a universe that is chaotic and mysterious.

Yes. And we are not in full control. And so if we can balance the effort with the wisdom of knowing we can't control everything, that seems like a route to peaceful striving. Absolutely, peaceful striving. Peaceful striving is where it's at. And I'm even getting to a place where I'm just like trying to be in tune to what am I being used for?

Which is a whole, you know, another layer that I've been kind of diving into. It's like the role that I've been given to play in this cosmic dance, right? And being open to the idea that I might not always know my role, right? And so the ego telling me, no, no, no, Jada, this is what your role is. It's like, ah, let's wait and see. You know? And so I've been really digging on that lately as far as like allowing myself to listen to see what the role is.

And you know what? Sometimes the roles we have to play are not always pleasant. And I've been digging on that as well. So there's a process, and it sounds like you have many processes for dropping your storyline, tapping into something larger, either it's the great Supreme or even,

maybe even it's just your body and whatever just your body and whatever signals your body happens to be sending you. And then you can make a smarter decision that's less self-centered based on that break, that pause. Absolutely. And just kind of seeing where, how is everything flowing? You know, getting into that more Taoist perspective as well.

You know, it's interesting, your book has gotten a lot of attention for personal stuff, you know, getting into that more Taoist perspective as well. You know, it's interesting, your book has gotten a lot of attention for personal stuff, you know, having to do with your family. But as I look at the material from the book, something else strikes me, which is you may be the most dedicated spiritual seeker, I don't love that term, but whatever you want to call it, like, that I've run across in a long time,

that you've tried ayahuasca many, many times, you've met with Thich Nhat Hanh, you've met with other spiritual leaders, you've studied in many different religious traditions, you've done therapy, medication. What is driving all of that? Because the level of effort and ambition there strikes me as unusual.

Just really in search for happiness in its truest form, right? And having reached a level of material success, you know, because we're told all the time that, you know, I mean, it's endless. And I'm always looking for different doors, you know, because I feel like the one thing that I've learned in not being afraid to being open to studying different practices is that each one has given me such a beautiful gift and a different understanding of the great supreme, right? Because my personal opinion is that the great supreme is so vast and so big that I'm learning different aspects of it through different traditions or have through different traditions and have gotten really beautiful gifts and different sacred approaches

to honoring the great Supreme. And so even though I've out of everything that I have studied and learned, I do have a very specific idea of the Great Supreme for myself. But I've gotten so much beautiful understanding through meeting so many different masters from different traditions that have really helped change my life. And that to me is really ecstatic. It is the thing that gives me

the most joy in life is when I'm given some different spiritual gift of some sort that enhances and nourishes my life and then I can share it with my friends and my family if I'm called to do so or if they're interested. But that to me is life. There's so much of what you just said, but I'm just going to pick up on one thing first, which is what you said right at the beginning of that answer. You, by many objective modern measurements, have everything. Everything. Clout, fame, money, and yet something profound is and has been missing. And that is what is propelling you on this path.

Yes, absolutely. And I think understanding that I'm grateful to be as privileged as I am. be as privileged as I am. But even in that privilege, I was spiritually deprived. I did not have the spiritual foundation that I needed to give meaning to any of it. And that's just for me. I can't say that that would be the same for everyone else. But for me personally, I really learned that having all of those material things, having that cloud, having that success, wasn't nourishing the void within

my heart. It didn't heal my broken heart. And I think that we are all existentially broken hearted in a certain manner because life can just be heartbreaking. You know, it's a beautiful thing that Thich Nhat Hanh would often talk about. He talked about suffering with grace and understanding the sacredness within suffering and knowing that that is a part of the human experience, it's part of the human condition. But we can't really know that until we are willing to learn the spiritual nature of ourselves and of the world. And I could not understand how I could have so many things and still be so brokenhearted. I was miserable.

I felt like something was inherently wrong with me. And I just didn't understand. And it wasn't until I really continued my search and was really deepening my commitment that I understood that you're not unique, Jada. my search and was really deepening my commitment that I understood that you're not unique, Jada. And that's part of the ego on the other side thinking, oh, low as me, I'm the only one who suffers like this.

Nobody else is suffering, you know, all of that, right? Which is just another aspect of the ego. I mean, let me tell you, and my ego leans more towards martyrdom. And that was something that I had to learn and discover. I never, I was like, that's ego? I just thought that was like, you know, the pain of it all. I was like, no, no, no, no, no.

That's not a unique position, you know? And so once I got with that that I was able to even look at Some of the dramas in my life very differently very differently Which was a blessing in itself You said a bunch of things that have given me 75 things to follow up on But just let me say just out of respect, you know, I think a lot of people in your position might have tried to milk as many worldly pleasures out of the situation as possible until they ran out of road. Like I'm thinking about this famous quote from John D Rockefeller, an ancient like rich dude who was how much is enough, and he said just a little bit more. Yeah.

And, you know, like, I think a lot of people in your position would just be like, all right, I'm gonna paper over this existential angst with more achievement, more money, a new tequila line, you know, some branded high heels, whatever it is, drugs, any kind of thrill, shopping, whatever. But you actually said, no, I'm going to try to learn more. And what you learned actually brought you into experiencing really in a raw way, the brokenheartedness that you're referencing, leaning into the grief, which is not something most people are willing to do. And it sounds like that is what you are doing now.

Yeah, let me tell you, and I get it. Let me just say that, that I so understand why people run. Lord knows I did for a long time until I hit a rock bottom. I hit such a dark place, you know, I talk about in the book where I'm looking for cliffs to drive over, you know, because I got to a place that I wanted to end my life, but I didn't want my kids to think that I ever committed suicide,

because it was so painful and I could not see a way out because here I am with everything a person could ever have and still miserable. And I was confused because I was turning 40, so I think it was 2012 or 2011, and nobody was talking about mental health in the way that people talk about it today. And it was still really taboo. And I had tried all different kinds of therapy and it didn't get me to the happy that I was looking for. And so reaching a rock bottom like that, and today I'm grateful for that rock bottom because it was an extreme circumstance

that needed to happen in order to get me on to the path that I'm on now. And you know, I wish we didn't have to have rock bottoms like that. But sometimes when we're dealing with the strong energies that pull us in this world and the way that they do, those energies that'll make us believe, man, go ahead and get that shoe line, man, try that cocaine, man, you know, hit another bottle of that alcohol. It'll make us think that, looking for that instant gratification for the moment, to just get us through whatever we're going through

in that moment, and we'll just keep in these cycles. But I'm grateful for rock bottoms, for those of us who can survive them. You mentioned Thich Nhat Hanh, the great Zen master, a few paragraphs ago, and you said that he said something about the sacredness of grief or suffering. Suffering. Yeah.

So what about suffering is sacred to you? So getting in contact with compassion. When we allow ourselves to sit in our broken hearts and we can be with the intense feelings of grief and despair and disappointment. It teaches us so much about ourselves as well as about others. When we learn about our own suffering and we're willing to be with it in a certain manner, it helps us to understand how people around us are suffering as well.

And we can realize that we're not alone and we can realize that we're not alone. And we can realize that we can actually help ourselves and others through the suffering. And that's what makes it sacred. It can, if we're willing to surrender, brings us closer to love. It brings us closer to feeling more connected to ourselves, which then offers more authentic connection to others. And that's what this is about, being here in this place.

We're all here just simply trying to help each other, walk each other home. To our hearts, our souls, for those of us who choose to want to have deeper connections with our understanding of the great supreme. Yeah, I mean, that really jives with the way I've experienced it, which is if you can do this deeply counterintuitive thing of feeling your pain as opposed to running from it. Yeah. It will do two things for you at least. One is it will put you in touch with the truth, the small t truth, like the way

things are, you know, for everybody, we are all talk about non-negotiables, we're all going to get sick and die and everybody we know is going to get sick and die. So suffering is, you know, part of the package. So, feeling it, as opposed to running with it, puts you in touch with the truth, and then it, inexorably, in my experience, leads you to seeing, oh yeah, I'm not, as you said before, I, Jada, I, Dan, I'm not unique, this is happening for everybody, so can I be useful in the face of that situation? And by the way, the being useful makes me feel better.

Yeah. Yeah, it makes me feel like I'm in service. Coming up, Jada Pinkett Smith talks about de-armoring boundaries and worthiness. From Wondry, this is Black History For Real. I'm Francesca Ramsey. And I'm Conscious Lee. And every week we gonna be chronicling a lot of trials

and triumphs from black folks who ain't never heard about, even though we've been doing the damn thing since forever. Together we'll weave black history's most overlooked figures back into the rightful place in American culture and all over the world. Because on this show you're gonna hear a little less In August 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue and a little bit more Sam looks to his fellow students they just as mad as he is. He can't stop thinking about the tragic war in Vietnam and the violent backlash to the

civil rights movement. It's like the whole world falling apart and ain't nobody ready to make it right. The school board could do something to change it, but they'd have to listen first. Follow Black History for Real on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. Divorced Beheaded Died, Divorced beheaded died, divorced beheaded survived. We know the six wives of Henry VIII as pawns in his hunt for a son, but their lives were so much more than just being the king's wives. I'm Arisha Skidmore Williams.

And I'm Brooke Zifrin. And we're the hosts of Wondery's podcast, Even the Royals. In each episode, we'll pull back the curtain on royal families, past and present, from all over the world to show you the darker side of what it means to be royalty. We rarely see Henry VIII's wives in their own light as women who use the tools available to them to hold on to power. Some women won the game, others lost,

but they were all unexpected agents in their own stories. Being a part of a royal family might seem enticing, but more often than not, it comes at the expense of everything else, like your freedom, your privacy, and sometimes even your head. Follow even the royals on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Go deeper and get more of the story with Wondery's top history podcasts, including American Scandal, Legacy, and Black History for Real. Before we get back to the show, just a reminder about the Healthy Habits course over on the 10% Happier app taught by Kelly McGonigal and Alexis Santos. To access it, just download the 10% Happier app wherever you get your apps. You said before you referenced walking each other home, which is a, I believe a quote from

Ram Dass who's the... Probably. I love Ram. For people who don't know him, he's a great, he's actually a white guy from the Boston area whose name was Richard Alpert and gotten a little trouble at Harvard for giving his students acid or something like that. He shrooms, yeah. And then went off to India and became Ram Dass

and actually became quite influential and incredible teacher. And in your book, you talk about another quote from Ram Dass that I'd love to get you to talk about now. Here it is. We have to learn how to have an open heart in hell. Yes, that's one of my favorites. It's learning how to allow the heart to be elastic

in really uncomfortable situations, right? So here's where I've done a lot of practice in regards to surrendering the ego because just like you said, it's so counterintuitive. So if you're being attacked surrendering the ego because just like you said it's so counterintuitive so if you're being attacked or somebody is sharing something with you that is painful you know the first thing my ego wants to do is fight and I've had to learn how to surrender that fight and tell myself that that fight hasn't serviced me, hasn't worked.

And then just be willing to open my heart to love and allowing loving presence to be what is in the midst of this uncomfortable situation that's making me want to shut down, fight, become callous and hard, and protect myself. And man, it has been a beautiful practice, but wow. It's something else, you know? But I've learned that love is the greatest shield. It really is. And it is about being able to open your heart in hell, open your heart when it's not the most ideal circumstances. Because check it, it's easy to love when, you know, the circumstances are ideal and exactly what you want them to be. It's like, who are we when they're not?

So I have two choices. I can help create more of the same. I can add more aggression, hatred in the world, or I can be with the hatred and aggression of this world with an open heart. And it's a hell of a practice. Let me tell you a story that I think is relevant and get to see what you think of it. Is that okay? Yeah.

So for my, I think we're probably roughly the same age. My, for my 50th birthday, a very close friend of mine is a great meditation teacher. Her name is Sebenay Selassie. And she gave me a painting that a friend of hers who she said was an intuitive. I don't even know what that means, but the friend made this painting and she bought it from the friend and gave it to me and it's hanging in my office. And as I was hanging it up, I saw in the back that it was called the title of the painting was my open heart keeps me safe.

The way I'm wired, I see language like that, and I think, I'm a very skeptical, anti-sentimentalist guy, so I don't like language like that. So I hear it, I'm like, oh, this is some New Age bullshit. But I decided, because Semené is a genius, that I would take this phrase on as like a riddle that I would sit with for a second. And at first I was like, well, how would being open in the face of the dumpster fires of the world help me or make me

safe, less anxious? But over time, and I don't even know if I can articulate it under pressure here, I've come to agree with it, even if I don't love the verbiage. Yeah. Um, yeah, I'll stop talking and see if any of that lands for you. Oh, that lands big time. And you know, being turned off by verbiage like that, like I, I'm the same way. I'm just like, you know, but I've learned that, man, I've had, that's been part of my practice too, just being able to accept that usually, you know, all of those little quotes or what have you,

like, you know, you gotta embrace your inner child. It's like, ah, don't talk to me about my inner child, please, but it's all true. It's all true. Yeah, it's all true. But yeah, just, yeah, having an open heart, you know, it's all true. But yeah, just having an open heart, you know, to me, I've learned has created the greatest safety. It's like it envelops and it dissolves and softens all of the, it makes the hate of the

world not non-existent as if it's not here, but non-existent in the fact that it's not necessarily real. And that's what it's taught me, and that most hate that's projected is one's own self-hatred that they're dumping into the world, right? And that's, I've learned not to take it personally, and that people are just trying to figure out what to do with their own personal lack of self-love. And I've learned to have a lot of compassion around that.

And the only reason I've learned to have compassion around that is getting in contact with my own self-hatred and my own lack of self-love and how that made me behave. That's the only reason why I really understand it is because I had to walk through the shadows of my own heart. I had to walk through the shadows of my own psyche to really take a really deep look at myself. And when I was willing to do that, I could see how that my behavior mirrored behavior in the world that I found hurtful towards me. I was like, oh, I'd do the same thing. It's like, oh, I get it. Okay, got it. Projection. Okay.

And then I realized, oh, so none of that is real. None of that is real. And so the love just kind of, you can just be with it and you can sit with it in that way. It just dispels the illusion of it. Let me see if I can re-articulate this just to put a fine point on it. This is mostly for just to make sure I understand it because I'm actually writing about this. So this is useful for me in my own work.

So the way Jada and Dan see this is that intuitive painter, whatever her name is, is right. Because if you close your heart, whether we like that language or not, if you armor up against your own nonsense and the nonsense of the world, it's not going to work in the long run. It's not a sustainable strategy because you are too small. We are too small and our mind is too complex. It's going to get in, it's gonna find a way through the armor. So the crazy but most effective move is to drop those ego walls, get close with our own inner turmoil, allow that to have a different view of other people's inner turmoil so that

we don't take their nonsense so personally. That's right. And can even empathize with them because we see how we could do the same thing if we came out of that womb and experienced the same things. That's right. And so that's the closest we're going to get to safety in a chaotic world. Yeah. That's how having an open heart would keep us safe.

Is that, am I in the neighborhood of correct here? Absolutely. And I think it's the greatest contribution that we can make in helping to change the world. You know, so that we don't add more of that energy into the world that creates more of the same. Do you watch Lord of the Rings? I watched the original movies, didn't love the Amazon reboot,

but I did watch the original. The original ones, right? Yes. So do you remember when those, I forget what you call them, but those creatures were coming out of the ground and all of that darkness was about to take over the world. And it was like millions of them.

And it seemed like there was no way that, you know, they could be conquered because it was so many of them. The orcs. The orcs. And then the wizard comes. And it's like, it might've been what? Six of them? Six of them, 10 of them at best.

And he comes with his, you know, crystal ball and he, you know, this light shines through and dispels all of that darkness. Right? And so the subtle way that love works, I also talk about a lot of times when I refer to like how much shadow it takes for to be seen in a room full of light. So we're in a room full of light. How much shadow has to, you know, fill the room for it to even be noticed versus When we're in a room of darkness, how much light needs to come into that room before it's recognized? A speck.

So I say all that to say that just because love itself might not always be so loud, it is far more potent than how loud negative energy can be. And I always refer to that. I either think about the Lord of the Rings moment, but the crystal fall, or I think about the idea of shadow having to pour into a room of light and how much it would take to be seen. And vice versa, the light that comes into the dark.

And I really like that. And I used to be a news anchor, so I traveled around the world, watching the worst thing, the worst things that humans do to other humans. And so I wanna believe in the power of love and I do deeply. And by the same token, I mean, there are a lot of orcs.

So I just kind of think, I don't know who or what's gonna win in the end, but I do know that it is possible for each of us to take care of our own shit, to do these processes that you're talking about here, get comfortable with our own ugliness, and therefore to be better in the world. And that we will be increasing the quotient of sanity

by doing that. And that we will be happier in the process too, and that I feel like is the best any one individual can do. Absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more. That's all we're here to do. And we gotta let the great supreme figure out the rest. I do wanna get you to clarify one thing, because in case people are confused,

when we're talking about having an open heart, that does not mean you're a doormat. In your book, you talk a lot about boundaries. So can you say something about that? Yeah, open heart does not mean, you know, unconditional tolerance. Because for a long time, I believe that being loving was allowing anybody to do whatever they wanted, you know what I mean? It's like, oh, you just have to allow because, you know, that's part

of loving. And it's like, no, no, no. We also have to protect our peace. It's like, I always think about those Buddha statues or those Kuan Yin statues that simply hand up, you know, just like stop right there as kind of like that boundary, creating that boundary or pulling out the velvet sword. Because we have to be our own warriors of light. Love isn't always just about, you know, moon beams and freaking, you know, fairy dust. You know, sometimes love has to be extremely fierce. I mean, I think about the goddess Kali in the Hindu tradition.

You know, here she is with her tongue out and she's got the machete and she's got a garland of skulls around her neck. She is the ultimate boundary setter, but it's through love. And it takes a lot of personal development for us to understand the difference between setting loving boundaries and setting boundaries from a place of resentment, revenge, hate, you know, all of those energies, because that's a different kind of boundary setting, right?

And so we have to be patient with ourselves through that process. And I didn't necessarily have that information, so I only knew how to set boundaries from a place of anger. So when I was starting my becoming aware of my love practice, I thought that anytime I set a boundary was an act of unkindness. And it was right because of where it was coming from but setting boundaries is not an act of unkindness. Where I was coming from in setting the boundary was.

So I really had to learn how to set boundaries for myself from a different place. And that is a practice because listen, we're all taught how to set boundaries from anger, from all those other places. You know what I'm saying? And so it just takes time. set boundaries from anger, from all those other places. You know what I'm saying? And so it just takes time.

But yeah, love being in an open heart does not mean you are a doormat, not at all, but it definitely takes some real study and practicing to get that balance. I always talk about this bumper sticker I once saw on the rear of a Subaru at a meditation retreat I was attending and the bumper sticker said, I'm all love and light and a little bit of go fuck yourself.

Yeah, that's it, yeah. There it is, you know, there it is, You know there it is with love Yeah, for sure before I let you go tell me about the title worthy Yeah, the title it was it was a word that I was using a lot in the book You know a lot of times when we talk about self-love, it's like, what does that mean, self-love, you know? And so I would talk about in the book a lot, like trying to find my worth, my value to myself.

And at first I wanted to name the book Unlovable because I was like, ooh, everybody feels unlovable. And my editor was like, okay, we might feel unlovable, but nobody wants to buy a book called Unlovable. And since I use the word worthy, that's what we're all in search of. We're in search of our self-worth for ourselves, really. We think we want to feel worthy to others. We oftentimes are using others as a reflection, you know,

to help us feel a certain way about ourselves. And I was like, wow, if we can all just get to that place of feeling worthy. You really care less about what's happening with others and what others think about you when you really have your sense of self-worth and that feeling of feeling worthy. And so I decided to name the book that, and I wanted it to be a reminder when it's on people's shelf that they're worthy.

Because even though the book is about my journey, I'm hoping, and from what I'm discovering from people who are reading it and have read it, that it also reflects the journey of others. So it's our worthy journey. It's not just my worthy journey, but I feel like it's just one kind of reflection or look at a journey towards self-worth but I feel like it's just one kind of reflection

or look at a journey towards self-worth that I think is pretty universal. I'll just pick up on what you said before about how self-love can sound like an empty cliche, but people might not like the language of love, generally, loving other people, but generally, you're not gonna get a lot of criticism if you're talking about love. But if properly understood, love should be omni-directional

so you shouldn't be left out of it, right? If you're a loving person, you should be included in the love and that means setting boundaries and it means having enough self-worth to send love, not from a needy place, but from a full cup. And I feel like this is something that isn't widely understood, and yet you're explaining it quite well. Well, thank you. I appreciate that.

LAUGHS Well, let me take a risk and say something, ask you a question. I don't know how this is going to land, but... OK. I have not followed the book publicity, your book publicity, super closely, but to the extent that I followed it, it seems like it's focused on a lot of stuff that, yeah, is in the book, but isn't

core to my understanding of the book. And so it's not my, I'm not your agent, I'm not your editor. I mean, we don't, we just met and on video, so we don't even really know each other. But it seems to me that you're a person who has done an enormous amount of interpersonal, intrapersonal, spiritual investigation in your life. And that doesn't seem to be the thing that people are asking you about. Am I understanding this correctly? Do you agree with that diagnosis? I do agree with that.

And I think, unfortunately, many people feel as though that's the click bait, right? And that is, I think, unfortunately, people sometimes lean into some of the personal stuff, which like you said, is not the core of the book at all, you know? But I think they feel as though that's what would get the ratings and what gets the attention. And I don't know because of what my life is, if it would have been avoidable. I was actually just talking to my publicist who also happens to be a really good friend of mine about this the other day. I was just like, wow, is there a different way

we could have approached this book? And I just, every which way I think about it, it was going to be noisy in that way at some point, you know, it was just unavoidable, unfortunately. But I do, one of the things I do love is that people who are reading the book see that the book is not that. That's a real treat for those who get beyond the headlines.

Well, maybe that's the positive spin here, which is that you made some noise. It was unavoidable. The noise was unavoidable. You made it, but that might have brought a lot of people to the book who otherwise wouldn't have read it, and then from the book, they're getting something that's not noise that is useful. And so maybe the noise served a purpose.

Yeah. I mean, listen, once again, it goes back to how we started the conversation. I just had to surrender. I'm like, the great Supreme knows better than me. You know, it's like, because that surely wasn't what I was hoping for, but everything happens the way it's supposed to. That's what I do know. You's in divine order, even if it doesn't go exactly the way that I had envisioned. I do know that it's all in divine order.

Jada Pinkett-Smith, a total pleasure to talk to you. Thank you for making time. Really appreciate it. Thank you. This was awesome. So great to talk to you. Thanks again to Jada. I think that Smith was fun to talk to her. If you want to hear some of the other interviews we've done with big names, you can check out our non-negotiables playlist. I'll put a link in the show notes. You can check out my conversations with people like Bill Hader and Glennon Doyle and many others. As I mentioned, this Jada conversation is part of a summer series we're doing where

we talk to big name folks or bold face folks. This month it's Abby Wambach, RuPaul and Jada, which you just heard. Next month we're going to come back with another week featuring Common and Goldie Hahn. Before I go, I just want to thank everybody who worked so hard on this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan, and Eleanor Vasili. We get additional pre-production support from my guy, Wombo Wu, an old friend of mine.

Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our production manager. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our managing producer, and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme. If you like 10% happier, and I hope you do, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app

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