Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin - Peter Asher

Episode Date: September 6, 2023

Peter Asher is a British musician, record producer, and manager. After starting his music career in the 1960s as part of the British pop duo Peter and Gordon, Asher ran A&R at the Beatles’ Apple Records. Over the course of Asher’s prolific career as an executive and music producer, he’s worked with artists including James Taylor, Linda Ronstadt, Cher, and Bonnie Raitt. He’s won two Grammy’s for Producer of The Year, Non-Classical (Simple Dreams, JT and Cry Like a Rainstorm, Howl Like the Wind) and one for Best Spoken Comedy Album (Live 2002, Robin Williams). ------- Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: Manna Vitality https://mannavitality.com/ ------- LMNT Electrolytes https://drinklmnt.com/tetra Get a free LMNT Sample Pack with your order. ------- House of Macadamias  https://www.houseofmacadamias.com/tetra Get a free box of Dry Roasted Namibian Sea Salt Macadamias + 20% off Your Order With Code TETRA Use code TETRA for 20% off at checkout.

Tetragramaton. Tell me about doing gigs with Peter and Gordon, just what the world was like then. Well the beginning would have been us walking into coffee bars and stuff and saying, do you ever have entertainment or spotting one that did and saying, can we do one night for nothing and you see if you like us. So we did a pub, a couple of pubs, coffee bars, a place called Tina's bar. We used to do it lunch time. We got a lunch time.

Lunch time. We had a lunch time gig and we would get a free meal and a free pint of beer and a pound each, which was a pretty good deal. We kept all of it, that was the difference. And then eventually, of course, post-peter Gordon, a post-hit record, you'd be playing all kinds of places. In England, suddenly you'd be on package tours, you know, same as America, but not as much as exciting.

So how long would it set be on a package tour? Fifteen minutes, twenty minutes. Wow. So three or four songs. Two or four songs. Well, they varied because when we were like the Dick Clark Haravan of stars, which was a big one, is memorable. You know, a lot of acts on the bill, but the one we find a poster of one,

we were actually a headliner, which was, you know, ephemeral because it was usually you had the biggest hit that week, you know. And it was us Tom Jones, who was probably on his first single, we were probably on our second hit or something, which is why we were headlining the charelles, you know, who we were in awe of, of course. And Brian Highland, Ronnie Dove, which is named, hold me, Thriddle me, kiss me, Mel Carter, people like that, and we're all on the same show, you know, which is fantastic. It was crammed in. And then the most drastic with the Murray the K shows in New York where you do five shows a day, but you only do like one song or two if you're big. We did two.

We were co-headlining with Wilson Pickett, which was amazing because you had a mixed audience. And we would close the daytime shows, and he would close the nighttime shows. And it was amazing. We were so excited, of course, that these were our heroes. So someone said, Wilson Pickett wants to say hello. I was like, oh my god, and you go up there, and he's sitting in this kind of throne thing,

and with a big entourage. And of course, Gordon, to me, it was just, you know, our Rody who came from Yorkshire and no thrones and no one to rush. We got to go, that's how it's done, you know. And would you have been about the same age? I was Wilson picking up. I wonder, probably. Yeah. I don't really know. So everybody's kids at this time, would you say everyone okay? Oh yeah, totally. I mean, we, yeah, first record came out in 64, so I was 20. But all the pre-record release stuff was all 18, 17, 18, 19.

Because we met at school. And the weird part was, of course, that suddenly they were putting us ahead on the charelles on these bills. And of course, to us us America was the real thing. We were all fake, you know, and the weirdest part about the whole business is that we created all these fakes in our mind and I mean pretty good fakes, but sold them all back to the original people, you know. That was the British invasion. The British invasion.

I mean remember we were playing Denver one time Red Rock Rocks, some big, big bill in Red Rocks. And it wasn't until we got there, because we were one of the most, the things we were most excited about was the Chuck Berry was on the bill. Wow. And we'd never seen him live. Or maybe we'd seen him, might have seen him actually on a tour of in England, but certain anyway, there we are arriving and we discovered that we are the headliners. Unbelievable. And we kind of went, no, no, no, no, you got this all wrong. You invented this music and he invented most of it. And so we were making all this fuss

to say, you know, we please don't make us close to the show after the Joparian. And of course, it turned out Chuck Berry didn't give a shit. Chuck Berry wanted to get home early. He didn't want to close the show and we had to do it, you know, because without his cooperation obviously we couldn't. Oh, it's awesome. It's awesome to close. So that's where he kind of went, oh, so that's the way it is. He just wanted to get paid. Did you get to meet all these people?

Yes. Amazing. We did briefly. I mean, but any lasting impression from any of the people that you met over the years that were just interesting people Who was Chuck like? abrupt, you know short It was business business. Yes, but he was not friendly, but and I think you knew we were you knew we were on the bill and you knew where to at record and stuff

The weirdest one probably was when I went to a jazz club to see Roland Kirk. There was another weird thing, you know, in London, I had all my copies of Downbeat already marked with the clubs I wanted to go to and I knew who was playing and, you know, this was such a big deal to us. And when we went into these clubs, of course, I went, I remember it was Bob Brookmeyer and Stan Gets. And for me, it was like such a big deal. But we walked in and there were people that were once

talking and drinking and this busiest sort of, and I went, oh my god, that's them. Whereas later, of course, when Philoneas Monk came to London, which I did see, it was the festival hall. It was silent. It was full of admiration. So it was just odd that he was America taking all his music for granted.

It was extraordinary. But I went to see Roland Kirk. And if you remember his famous, you would play like several instruments at once. It was breath-taking, amazing show. And someone had obviously told him, somebody figured out who we were and told him. So he was trying to say the right things, or he said something about it, but he had it all muddled and he said something about the Beatles, not that we were the Beatles,

but somehow, you know, it was him being very sweet and trying to like acknowledge the fact that someone had told him these people with a number of record were in town, but he knew nothing, you know. And I kept on it and he said, it's okay, we don't expect you to. You're magic idols and heroes, you know. Of course you don't know who we are. And of course I do know who you are and that's how it's supposed to be. But it didn't seem like. When you, was it unusual that at your age that you were enthralled with American music or was that what young English kids liked?

I think the Gene of Us, that was what we all liked, particularly rhythm and blues of course. I used to go every Monday night to Ken Colley as jazz club, I just thought to John Cross Road, because Monday night was R&B night and the house band was the Rolling Stones and I used to go and see them every Monday before they'd ever made records. I remember make on stage talking about we just got to make our first single which was come on the Chuck Berry song and you know it was coming out next week and please go and buy it and that kind of thing. And at that time they were playing all covers, yes. All covers. All covers. I mean I always always point out to people that even the Beatles, before they started writing their own songs,

which you turned out they did rather well, but until that time, I don't think they ever sang an English song that I can think of. And the only English songs that were ever hits in America were Audities, who was like, does your tune go in the middle of the song? No, these songs. So, overnight or stranger on the shore, like a bill, you know,

you know, that was the pre-British invasion, British invasion, but our rock stars, you know, like Cliff never made it, you know, eventually he had some sort of a hit, but he was all in the game. All in the wonderful game, let me know as long. And I guess really until the Beatles, until Bob Dylan and the Beatles, everybody did covers. Like in the Frank Sinatra model, you sang, you sang standards. Yes, or you sang some in the Carol and Jerry had written for you. But you know, that kind of thing, on Neil Dam, and one of those, you know, the right to order people who were so brilliant,

you know. And is one of the other. Did you ever get to go to the real building and see that world? No. Not really. I later on got to meet everybody who I was part of it. And we used to pay a lot of attention when we bought records to the names and the little brackets under the songs title. used to pay a lot of attention when we bought records to the names and the little brackets

under the songs title. Because we knew that these were the magic people who came up with this music that was so brilliant. And that's why when I finally met Carol and she did through Danny Kortschma, who had played with Peter and Gordon, he was in a band called The King Bees. And when we toured America, the promoters would hire a band or actually several bands and there's in different areas of the country to be the backup band. And of course they didn't go out and hired terrific individual musicians.

They just looked for some out-of-work group who would do it on the cheap and learn the sun. They just learned these songs, which was fine. And some of them were fairly good, some of them were awful. One of the good ones was the King Beeson. Danny Kortzman and I became great friends. And of course, he's the one who introduced me to James later on. And he introduced me when I came to out to LA finally to Carroll.

He'd been in a band called The City with Carroll. You know, so I, my first move with a big fan grovel about all the songs he'd written, all of which I knew. And people didn't just realize, didn't realize them as yet so many hits there. So many. It was like Diane Warren Plus, you know? And not only that, but suddenly to switch

Diane Warren Plus to being a leading member of the Singersong Ride Movement. Amazing. It's extraordinary. It's amazing. Tell me more about London in the 60s, just what was the atmosphere and what was it like pre, I'll call it British invasion. It wasn't the British invasion for you, but maybe pre-rock and roll.

Yeah. Interrock and roll. It was fantastic. I mean, it was London. First of all, I always think that the 60s grew so much out of the 50s, because people forget that the 50s were so different in London and in America. London was rationing till 1956. Shortages, you know, they took rationing off individual items one at a time. The last thing to go, whatever it was, was 56. It was very much a tightening

your belt, spirited the blitz, you know. And Britain was a pretty primitive kind of country. It's something like half of Britain didn't have indoor plumbing or refrigerators. Was your memory of the, like, was the memory of the war was... Yes. ...spawnsides everywhere, still. And, you know, a lot of rebuilding to be done. And, you know, a lot of people had, still, and a lot of rebuilding to be done. A lot of people had lost family in the war. So the war was an omnipresent theme, and the general shortages and grimmeness. I think part of it was sort of us deciding, we're going to do something different here. We admire

everything our parents accomplished, but we'd rather have fun and dress up and silly clothes and stuff. And I think that the sort of willful desire to have a good time grew out of the fact that for a while nobody was allowed to have a good time because we were too busy beating the Nazis, which was a thing. And then literally we had some help from some allies, but you never really had to get your hands dirty in the grimness of it, except losing people. Absolutely. But they didn't bomb New York or anything dramatic. And so it was very different. Our admiration for America became great because the Americans we met seemed were all charming and funny and rich by our standards.

And obviously, as you know, the soldiers had the silk stockings that the girls wanted and all the things that we didn't have. And so it was, I think for quite a while, the war was an excuse for a lot of shortcomings that Britain had and took a while to recover from. So it was different. And musically, the music we had, some of the people were really good. I mean, I'm a cliff fan. I was a Billy Fury fan.

God knows I was a dusty fan, which was sort of leaning into the British invasion, but we loved them all. But we didn't think of them as real rock stars, the real ones who are American. You know, I was a child actor and I, you know, was in films where some of the people would be English movie stars. The first film I ever did, my father was played by Jack Hawkins, who you may remember, is in Bridge on the River Cry and Lawrence of Arabia and military gentlemen. And that was exciting. But the real excitement was that my mother was played by a real movie star because my

mother was played by Claude at Colbert. And of course, she was a real movie star because she was American. And we kind of went, that's the reason. We only movie stars come from Hollywood, rock stars come from America. That's how it was then. And that's what the Beatles changed completely. Do you remember if it was, did you hear of Elvis before you heard of Chuck Berry

and Little Richard? Yes. Elvis was first. Yes, I think so. And first was Hot Breaker Hotel. That was huge. How old would you have been? I don't know what you had to think,

I have no idea, I'm not going to be able to. I suppose I was 16. I wanted you to feel, 16, 17. And that might be right. So it was not long after hearing that, that you start making music? No, not at all. And you know, we used to do several other songs.

So yeah, we did other songs, and then obviously we did body- holy songs, and an Heavenly Brothers. Of course, as a duo, you know who your favorites are. You know, it's one area in which there's no discussion. You are Sam and Agafankal, or Chad and Jeremy, or John and Paul, who are you trying to copy in, it's always the same band. If we met a couple more people at school who wanted to play, we might have been a group like everybody else, but we sounded good just to two of us and we stuck to it.

Did you sing Everly Brothers songs in the beginning? Absolutely. Yeah, all the time. And of course, one of our favorite Evely songs ties the whole thing together because it was in the rain. So it was a Carol King song and a Nevilley Brothers song. I didn't know she wrote that. Yeah, she did with Howard Greenfield, the lyrics. So it wasn't Guffin and King, it was Greenfield and King as we discovered, as we researched those names. And we didn't know who King was at all.

It could have been Mr. King for all we knew. And eventually we found out about this amazing woman. She wrote Willie's The Lummy Tomorrow for the Cherelles when she was 18. And never looked back. Just wrote one hit after another. Unbelievable. And what a great piano player, like just the feeling in every piano player. Well, that's the funny part, of course, because it was when I came to make Sweet Baby James,

which we didn't have a title for yet, but which was gonna be the first American album after the Apple album, which I'd done in London with English musicians, and which I'd decorated quite a lot with orchestration and stuff. I wanted to keep Sweet Baby James simple, and by then I'd heard exactly that. The original Screen Gems demos of all those Carol King songs.

And I loved her piano playing. It was sort of the ultimate, not jazzy, not too fancy chords, you know, but perfect and very soulful nonetheless. Piano playing. So when I first met Carol, I asked her if she would play on James's album. She would give me a week to just be a studio person, which was asking a lot because I knew she was goddess of songwriting. And I knew that she was planning gradually to make her own record. She hadn't made papistry yet. No, no, not at all.

She'd done, I think, this album, The City, which was her ownuch and the Charlie Locky. And I think that was that, but it hadn't done tapestry at all. No tapestry came after that. And that's the whole, you've got a friend's story which tied tapestry into our world, because, but anyway, the backtrack per second. So I fell in love with the piano playing,

and she said yes. She didn't know who James was. She came over to my house, at that point I was in a rented house down on Longwood Avenue in Hancock Park, corner of Olympic Boulevard, 400 a month with a guest house on a pool, and she came over there to rehearse, I mean to meet James, and they met, I'd sit them sat down and asked to just play They started just making up stuff and playing and it was entirely magical And that's we found out piano player. Did you have any kind of a tape recorder there? No

Sadly no, I know no I've got so because I remember I've got a picture of the room and We had no fun to do because I had no money. We had a rented piano and there's a picture of James playing the piano with the cat, cat was free sitting on the piano. And we rehearsed in the afternoon and went into a sunset sound that night and cut the three or four tracks we'd walked out. It took a week. Amazing. We felt kind of guilty because you know that we had a record deal, we got another 20,000 in front of

20,000 on delivery. And we made all of them for like $7,600. That was easy. Well, made it better. It's like it's a funny thing. Exactly. Sometimes storing more money at a project doesn't make it better. Exactly.

And we were, as I say, we had no money to speak of. So there's that track on that album that's called Sweet for 20G. And people are always puzzled for a while with all kinds of magical explanations. It was to get the $20,000 on delivery. James had said, I've got any more songs. We have to wait. And I said, would you play me some good bits? And he said, well none of them have turned into songs, they're

not finished. And I said, well could you play them to me and he played them? And I said, well let's string them together. And if you listen to it, they're distinctly three separate songs, different tempos, different keys. And so he put them all together, see when he James Taylor's song ever had a hand in naming because he said a watch-like all-enthusent, sweet for 20 Gs so that we can collect the money. And there it is on the record. I can say someday I will be. When I catch a common cold, won't I hear a saxophone? When I let the good times roll, they slide me a bass drum bone.

And as I say, people have kind of got what is what mysterious meaningful title was that, that went very simple. Tell me about the other British invasion vans like, there was Dave Clark V and Herman's Hermes and Freddie of the Dreamers. There was a bunch of them. Yes, I mean, what was this, tell me what the scene was like and it, it feel like a community of... It sort of did. I mean, we used to run a series other on TV shows all

the time that's where you meet pretty in the dream isn't it was when you do top of the pops or thank you like your stars or ready steady go ready steady always the most fun because it was live you played live most of them were lip sync but that's where you met and you occasionally meet in a place called the blue boarder, I don't know if you're familiar with that, but going up and down the M1, which was Britain's first ever motorway. So whatever gig you were going to, it was in, it was north of London, you took the M1

and they had one rest stop, which was open all night, which is a cafe, you could get egg and chips and stuff. And you'd go in there and almost always there'd be another band in there. Because everyone was zooming out down the M1 playing all these various gigs. And I remember meeting the kinks in there, or Goshkar or the Yard birds, other people you'd see them at the Blue Borer on the M1. It's sort of legendary status. And eating greasy food and two in the morning or something on your way back to London

Would you get to see all those bands play live as well? Sometimes I mean when you shared a bill with them you did for sure and doing these TV shows you did But I think the words of distinction I think the real bands everyone knew were kind of the kinks zombies yard birds you know bands that you really want Zombies were so cool. Yeah, they really wanted it. And so different than everybody else. Yes.

They still great. Yeah. Singing and playing, they're both great. And yeah, they're important bands. We were kind of in between. Then, Freddie and the Dreamers and the bands, nobody really took that seriously. But he was a nice guy, and they catch your records and so on.

And then Herman, very cleverly, took that sort of English musical thing, Vorderville aspect of it and made them into hits. That was also a big influence on Paul's writing, the Vordville. Yes, absolutely. Your mother should know and all those kinds of things. Yes, I think there may be that something that we added a bit to. We added to a American rock and roll. And even Peter and Gordon finally succumbed and we did Lady Giddiver. And I remember actually thinking when we were sent that song, I was the one kind of going

I don't know. You know, it's a bit novelty record. And this suddenly make us pretty in the dreamers, you know, as it were. And nothing against them at all. But Gordon was the one who said, you know, don't be so snooty. It's quite funny and quite catchy. It might even be a hit.

And it was a hit. And actually, when we do shows now, one of those ones that's much in demand, it was a huge in Canada, remember? We found a copy of the Chum Canadian chart when Lady G'dayva was number one, which it wasn't in America for sure. But yeah, it's a fun song to sing, do I do that when I do show it? I grew up listening to classic rock radio, and you'd hear Lady G'dayva all the time. Yes. It's a standard on American classic 60s music. It's one of the standards.

Yeah, it's funny because I remember this session, I kept trying to make it more like a kinks record. I mean, the original beat, I didn't remember the beginning of Lady of the Hoverband, the record itself now just starts with pretty much bass and kick. Bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Plinky, Pl stuff, it was all the bad, but it was even more novelty bands than it was. And I took all that out against the producers' best wishes, but I felt strongly that just the boom-boom, and I was stealing it from sunny afternoon. You know, the Kingswrap, because it oughted to be. So I went kind of, let's steal that.

So that boom, boom, boom, boom, know ones I've ever called me out on. But the beginning, as close as I could get it, to being a direct steal from how great it's any afternoon sounds. So I was trying to make it a little more kinks clever and a little less totally Vordaville silly, you know. But whatever the compromise was seemed to work. Do you ever get to see the zombies live? Not back then, no. I've seen Colin and what's his name since then. Rod Argent maybe?

Rod, yeah, that's right. Yeah, and then he had that big hit with a Denny Lane song that was my favorite Denny Lane song. We say you don't mind. And then that became a hit for Rod Argent. Yeah, it was just incredible keyboard player. Brilliant keyboard player. I think he did a lot of sessions too, probably. I think so. We had a lot of, I mean, you had a lot of people interested in people playing on sessions then.

Jimmy Page played on a couple of hours. And then the legendary guitar team at that time was Big Jim Sullivan and Vic Flick. And Vic Flick played a lot, he played the solo one well without love. And he's of course the same guy who played Dunderland, Dunderland, Dunderland, Dunderland, Dunderland, Dunderland played the Bond theme. And I forget which records you may page play on, but a couple of them. He was one of the guys who was around.

And then there were also some guys that were a bit older, like from the previous team, but also a really good player. So were there a big studio musician seen at that point in time? I don't know, but I, yes, I think they were all working a lot. Yeah, I remember, my favorite drummer was a guy called Kenny Claire, who was the drummer in the Donnie Danquist band. So he was a big jazz guy in England. Very important in the British jazz scene, which is a very separate and again, a complete copy of the American jazz scene, but some wonderful, wonderful players.

And Kenny Claire played on a couple of Peter and Gordon Records. There was a brilliant big band drum and played all of it. And we put some of that in there just because he did it so well. High above the clouds in the Himalayan mountains, grows a little known super-fort used by ancient warriors. This castle, Xer, was referred to as the destroyer of weakness. It's called chilegit. Mana vitality makes chilegit available in a proprietary combination

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skiffle music was based on American music. Oh, completely. I didn't know that because we never had, we didn't have skips. No, I know. Whereas for all of the other, for the blues, for every other genre that was popular in the UK, we had the equivalent here.

Yeah, and I guess it's Jug band, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, and people forget about Lonnie Donigan, of course, it was a deep, big guy. I was telling you Jack White, not long ago, and he turned out to be a huge Lonnie Donigan fan. He knew all his records and everything,

and I kind of was so impressed because Lonnie Donigan fans are rare in America, you know. And it's sort of figures that he would be somebody who got it, you know. And we see a movie star as well? No, just he came out of the jazz scene. I see. He was the banjo player. And when I say banjo, it would be four string, chinkachinko banjo,

not five string, bluegrass. In the Chris Boba jazz band. You know, before Skiffle was the big, the trad to scene as they called it, which was traditional jazz, Dixieland to you. And Chris Barber was the biggest band. And the band was very big and they do their set with all the haunt section and everything. And then they would have in the middle of the show a section of Lonnie Donigan doing a couple of folk songs

and stuff on his banjo with maybe the bass player and stuff. And that was the beginning of Lonnie Donigan. To some degree, I think the beginning of Skiffle. And then Lonnie Donigan had Rock Island line, which was massive, which is a lead belly song. Better alive also was a big one I remember. Yes, that's right. And then there were other Skiffle groups,

like the Vipers, who were very good. But Lonnie Donigan was the king of Skiffle, literally described as such. And it began with him, he would do a tiny segment in Chris Barbus Jazz Band. But Lonnie Donigan was the king of skillful literally described as such and It began with him. He would do a tiny segment in Chris Barbies jazz band evenings I used to play in a in a trad jazz band. I played bass very badly as you could get away with it in a band Mostly notable that the band leader and trumpet player was Adrian Lyne the film director

So we'd known each other forever. Amazing. Played the other in a band, which was exciting. What motivated your decision to move to California? James. I had been to California, of course, several times on tour and to do TV shows and do shindig and whatever. And I loved California.

It was amazing. I mean, you have to remember what British people are coming from. So I mean for me literally the contrast was so stark because one year I was a philosophy student at London University, King's College London, so that you know on a winter off the noon I would be basicallycling home from university in the dark, because by 4 o'clock in British winter, it's dark, and the rain. And a year later, I was driving down Sunset Boulevard in a Mustang convertible, being recognized by beautiful women in the sunshine. And I kind of went, I think this is better.

Call me crazy. But this seems like a lot more fun. So I knew I'd come back and live in America one day. I knew the first, even before Peter and Gordon, I had posters of the New York skyline on my bedroom wall. I, you know, and as I say, copies of Downbeat with jazz club circle, I knew my America was in my future somewhere. And once I'd been here and it lived up to our expectations, you know, because we dreamed

of coming to America and then to come and be chased around by teenage girls trying to say, your girls off, you know, it gets no better than that. Yeah, so California, the decision was part of the decision to manage James. And it was producing and managing came to me in in an entirely different ways. Being a record producer was something I had an ambition to do in and of itself. Once I'd realized the was such a job,

that you could have a job where you could high-brilliant musicians much better than yourself and tell them what to do. You know, I thought, how cool is that? As you well know. And it's extremely cool. And that was an ambition regardless of who it was. And so I first record ever produced was a Paul Jones record. I don't know if you remember Paul Jones, that he was the lead singer of Manfred Mann in the dua ditty. There she was, just to work in that guy, brilliant singer, and one of the best harmonica players in the world.

And so I produced his record, and by that time Paul and I were already friends, so I asked Paul if he would play on it, play drums on it. So I pulled McCottene play drums, Paul Sam was smith from the yardbirds, played bass, who went on to, of course, the Cahly Simon and Kat Stevens. Nikki Hopkins played piano and Jeff Beck played guitar. Wow. So I was taking no chances on my first record. How great was that band?

It was a great band. It was a really good band. The record wasn't a big hit. It crept into the charts and grabbed out again, but it's good. Worth hearing. Whereas managing was quite different, I was already producing James. We'd made the Apple album, came out, didn't do particularly well.

We were just trying to do that. To do Apple was falling apart. The Beatles were falling apart. We decided to leave and sort of jump ship. And so I decided to move to America because James had a conversation about management, it was clear to us that somebody needed to be his manager. We didn't know anyone we trusted to do it, so I said, the James will, I'll do it.

And yes, I was kind of being bold and saying how hard can it be, but I was also having watched Brian Epsine realize that one's instincts were correct, that it wasn't that hard if you had an amazing client, you know, and you cared, which is something that and you can't that's a big difference. And you want to cook right? Yeah, it wasn't it wasn't just a gig. You love this artist. Exactly. If you're going to go around saying my band's going to be bigger than Elvis, you better mean it. Yeah. mean it. And so I think if you're reasonably intelligent, love your artist at the point in every sense of the word and not just trying to make a quick dollar, it becomes a matter of a lot of you have come. And since people do often say to me, what's the secret of being

a great manager? And I do explain that I inducted the first two managers into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame because I knew them, and they were not surprisingly Brian Epstein and Andrew Luke Oldham. I went, duh, what does this tell you? Secret of being a great manager is a great client. It isn't mean that you couldn't screw it up if you tried, but if you're going around telling your woman to genius James Taylor, it's easy because it's true. And you know my ambition was to convince people that this is not just another long-haired folky with acoustic guitar which is what you were if you had long-haired plays with acoustic guitar you were a folk singer. It didn't matter if you've never sang any folk songs. I mean James did but you were playing the folk clubs that

was you know. We're singer songwriter, oddly enough, had never been used in that context. Interesting. It hadn't been put together that way. Interesting. You could be a songwriter in a singer, but suddenly, oh, I'm a singer songwriter. Now I've got a name for what I do. And it was a whole movement, 70s.

And at the end of the movement. They put James on the cover of Time Magazine. Yeah. You know, it was so it was Joni, it was Neil, it was James, then the minute later it was Jackson and so on. And that was the singer songwriter thing. Well, let's go back because you talked about Apple was falling apart. Tell me about Apple from the beginning. Were you at Apple from the beginning?

Yes. Tell me about the entire Apple story. Okay. Paul and I were friends. Even after he moved out of our house, you know, he lived with us for a couple of years on the top floor of our house, then when he moved out to his mansion in Cavendish Avenue, where he still lives, that's when I mostly remember him talking about Apple.

It was a beetle collective idea, but it was mainly him and the others were falling into place behind him. And he wanted to create a sort of entertainment company. And at that era, you may remember, it was before record company started vying with each other for the title of Artist Friendly. That concept didn't really exist. I mean, the head of EMI was a man called Sir Joseph Lockwood. And when you walked into his office, he felt like you should bow. He was in a suit,

behind a big desk. He was Sir Joseph and he was the boss. And everybody had that thing which they kind of still have. We don't accept unsolicited material and no, no bothers go away. Now it's different. There's no bothers until you have 20 zillion followers

or all those numbers. But back then, they said, no, you need to have a lawyer or a manager to talk to us and all that. Very hands off. And Paul was convinced that, you know, if we just took a more amiable, accessible, hospitable attitude.

And it was going to be records and films and television and all this other stuff. But so he asked me. This also makes sense from Paul after the Beatles were rejected by everyone for a long time. So he, in his mind, it's like, there's more of us out here. That's right. That's a very good point.

It makes sense, you know, makes sense for that mentality. The sad thing was, it didn't happen. It didn't happen. Could it have happened? Well, yes, I mean, I suppose you could have. I mean, the funny part is Apple now would kind of make a bit of sense to start a completely independent label that truly listened. I had four or five people listed because we took ads and send us your music.

Boy, did they ever. But the depressing thing was we really got nothing out of those send-in tapes. I mean, and a depressing percentage was people with this stack, stacks of, for example, a giant stack of lyrics that don't scan and don't rhyme. And I know John Lennon wants to write music for this, all my lyrics, and it's gonna bring about world peace or whatever. And, you know, and it was depressing, how nutty some of it was, how bad some of it was, and how, what the percentage of actually, let's play this in an Ami-Ting,

and then say, no, you know, that was a triumph, you know? When there was something, I actually thought I could play to the Beatles and say, what do you think? Yeah., because we had weekly A&R meetings. I think the King of Fur came out of one of those meetings. Do you know about the King of Fur? An artist called brute force, who I believe is still around. Wow, great. And we play, this is the only thing I think could be wrong. But I think there's the only thing we played in the night and I'm eating and I actually went let's sign it We let sign it because George thought it was hilarious But it was a song the lyrics of which large consistent. I am the king of fur. I am the fucking

and We all laughed George said we have to put it out We have to put it out and of course EMI in capital went no, you don't and we want yes We do and we had to get some other distributor to do it because EMI wouldn't do it, but it did come out and There's a guy called brute force Might still be around. It's a funny name great name. Yeah, yeah But I think that might be the only thing because we signed Mary Hopkin Because we saw her on a talent show. I see Twiggy actually saw her

Twiggy as I recall Twiggy was watching this show called Opportunity Nox Which was kind of like any star talent show if you got through to the next round you came back next week and so on And Mary Hopkin was singing a you came back next week and so on. And Mary Hopkin was singing a Joan Baez song, that for Fortune, and had such a great song. Twiggy called Paul, that great friend still are, and Paul called me, we all watched it, we all went down to Wales and signed her up. And that then that went lead to those of the days, which of course was a credible song.

And who wrote those of the days, which of course was a credible song. And who wrote those of the days? Exactly. Very good question. Paul had been to a nightclub called the Blue Angel some weeks or I think months previously, where a duo called Jean and Francesca, I think, and American duo had sung those of the days. And he had made a mental note of it, obviously, because when he signed Mary Hobgain, he knew what record he was going to make, whether or he knew that it was going to be a huge hit, and it turned out, we credited them with the song. It turned out it's actually a Russian folk song that, hold da da da da da da da, it's actually a Russian folk song that hold it's the Russian sounds. So Paul said you know we need to find that song which we did and he

knew I wanted to do it and he wanted the instrument the the cymbalum. You know cymbalum is it's um you hear it in movie music right a lot it's like a big hammered dulcimer it's like a hammered dulcimer, but then it looks like a zither with the strings crossover with each other. And you play it with hammers like a dulcimer. So on those were the days that, drink, drink, drink, drink, drink, drink, drink, drink, drink, drink, drink, drink, drink, drink, drink, the place, the solo and the intro is a symbol on. I defined the, the best symbol on player in London, which I did for Paul. Because in this instance, head of a henarm and help Paul make the record, which

fine with me. We did it at EMI. Which we think of as Abbey Road. Which you think of as Abbey Road because eventually somebody very cleverly changed the name to make it worth more money. That was when they were in the process of selling it. Yeah, and I suggested the arranger because what happened was this is a whole other story, but... Tell it. When I was doing the James Album, as I said, I added different instruments on it, and it's quite decorated with string quartet and brass quartet and this and the other. And I wanted it to not sound too necessarily pop. So I, a friend of mine called Richard Houston, I had played in a jazz group with me.

He was a trumpet player, a guitar player, but I knew also that he was a classical musician. So I asked him to write all the charts for that, which he did. So that was how he came to be involved with Apple. So when Paul wanted strings and everything on those were the days, I said, well, you met Rick Richard, who did the stuff on the James out. He went, oh, great, he'll do. So he wrote the arrangements on those were the days

and became kind of the in-house Apple arranging guy, which of course, as we ended up, unknowingly writing the long and winding road arrangement that Paul hated only because he didn't want it to be that. Wow. You know, but obviously if you get a call from somebody's name Phil Spector once you write an arranger,

it's for the Beatles longer. You go, yes. Of course. You don't go, do the Beatles know this is going on? You know, there was one of them didn't, you know, but it's a beautiful arrangement. I still like the one without it, but that's a, but that's all I have to story about. I think I like it better with it just because I grew up with it.

Yeah, exactly. That's how the song goes to me. And it's good. It's really good. Rich is terrific. How many employees were there at Apple? Don't know. You know, there were Apple publishing, Apple Apple films, Apple, and obviously Apple records.

Would you say it was like in the neighborhood of 20 people or like 50 people? I would say it was in between those two numbers. I see. It would be my guess, yes. Because there were quite a few sort of assistance and secreties and a guy on the door and, you know, so it might be a size 50. And the office was in that whole building? Well, we started off in Wigmore Street, I think.

No, we started off in Baker Street. Camera boy, we kept moving. But then we moved to Wigmore Street. And then finally, they'd bought this building. I think they bought it, and God knows they shouldn't have sold it. But I kind of imagined what it's worth. It was such a great building. I was on the top floor. It was fun a great building. I was on the top floor.

It was, it was fun. Do you remember what was on the other floors? Yes. Some of them. I mean, ground floor is the entrance way. And I think Peter Brown's office slash kind of general Beatles office might have been on the ground floor, might have been on what we would call the first floor. What did he do? Peter Brown was general sort of assistant kind of sort of manager with Neil Aspenall, you know, I mean, when Brian died. He'd always been that sort of right-hand man, sort of ambassador, you know. And it's funny because he's legend now because his name shows up in the song about Peter Brown called to say we can get you get married and whatever which is Peter Brown arranging John and Yoke goes wedding and so his name shows up in the song and everyone goes oh that's

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So visit drinklmnt.com slash tetra. And stay salty with Element Electrolyte. LMNT. You also mentioned the name of the show that Mary Hopkins was seen on and I never knew that that was the name of a TV show, but there's an outtake of John Lennon saying that name in the studio. Oh really? Yeah, I just thought it was a clever line.

No. It's used referring to a TV show. It was, yes, the opportunity knocks was the big TV show. So that's where the Beatles hadn't got a record deal. Eventually, they would have ended up an opportunity knock. Opportunity knocks. And is there a studio in the basement?

Not yet. Not yet. No, no, no, no, we moved, we moved in. The wads are, was not depending on how much you judge a studio, whether it works or not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the basement later on. So, these basement, yeah, ground floor admission, I think Beatles office, maybe you have one flight of stairs, which is sort of the big office office which Neil had an office just off of I think And that was sort of the really the kind of conference room or whoever Beatles were there if the band came in that's where they went Yes, and then Next thought I was there he tailors office, which is where the fun was which is where everything was gonna happen And that was the publicity press. Yes, he was pressed. I know much you know about Derri Taylor.

Not much, tell me. He was brilliant. I mean, amazing, fantastic, interesting man. Worth reading his book. It's called, this time goes by. And he's a wonderful writer, so it's gripping read. And the sum chat was where you go, this is, this is all weird. He's finished reading the chapter, find out, you know, he was on acid the whole time. That's why chapters. But he still wrote beautifully. He was a truly exceptional man. The Beatles loved him, Dealy. As did I. How did he come into the Beatles world? Do you know? I guess he wasn't Brian early. And then he went to America and had a PR sort of

company, but not like any other PR company. It was much cool than anybody else. He worked for the birds, I think, and some other people, and then was asked to come back for Apple. And was the Beatles Brian's first act? Because he owned record stores before this? Yes. As far as I know, I don't think he had any ambitions to be a manager anymore than I did when he heard the Beatles and just went, this is too good to ignore. I mean, he was only in the music business in the sense that he ran a record shop. Yes.

And I think Peter Brown may have worked in the shop with him. Maybe that's how Peter came on board. I think he knew Brian. Tell me more about Derek and Derek's office. Well, Derek's office was the office where the bar was, for example. And Derek's top drawer had all kinds of wonders as well. So everyone would end up in there.

So when the, you know, so we, my office was in the very top floor next to these people who worked me listening to tapes. And I think Apple Publishing was a guy called Michael Conner, who had a random Apple publishing might have been on the next floor down the road. About five floors, I think, on a basement. But yeah, so Derek's office was where you went later

in the day to see what was going on and have a drink or a smoke or whatever was going. And so when the hell's angels all arrived or Ken Keezy arrived or you know and no one knew what to do with them, they'll put him in Derek's office, Derek will know what to do. And he did, you know, Derek was brilliant. Derek was also responsible for the close relationship with Harry Nielsen. He was a huge Nielsen fan. He produced the record. Wow, I didn't know that.

Harry Nielsen. And Harry and the Beatles course became very close. And would you say everybody in the offices around 25 years old or less? I suppose so, yes. So it's a young, again, we think back and it's this business and I just want to really picture on the tag. Or Ron Cass is doing it because we thought

we needed a real record guy to run the label. And we had this guy, Ron Cass, who was head of Liberty Records, had been head of Liberty. We also knew he was cool because he was married to Joan Collins. Now, but you not be cool, and if you're married, I think Lady Monecker's dad owned Liberty Records. I think that's right. So Ron Cass might have been a little bit older, I think.

That's how I got to produce something. He was like the adult. He was the adult, yes exactly. But everyone else was kids. I think so. It's cool. Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, there were lawyers in the accountant's office who were there to be grown-ups.

But yeah, it was exciting. And yeah, Derek, there's all kinds of Derek adventures you should read up on. There's the trip we all took to record the Black Dyke Mills band, you know about them. I don't know about them. If you do get Derek's book, read that chapter. If you read nothing else because it's...

I'll read the whole thing, it sounds great. It's fantastic. The Black Dyke Mills band Paul invited a theme tune for a show called The Thingambi Bob, a television show called The Thingambi Bob. And he wrote this melody, which was really good and catchy. And he decided he wanted it down by a brass band. Brass bands are quite a big thing in England. It's a very traditional English business.

All the factories up north used to have their own brass band. And they have brass band competitions, and all that stuff. All just trumpets and new phonemes and some of those instruments there only show up in marching bands and brass bands. So he wanted to come back to our brass bands and we found the best brass band, we'd won the competition that last year called the Black Dyke Mills Band, which was their factory. And they were terrific and we had the arrangement written out for them. But we did the recording up near where they all were up in Yorkshire. So we drove up and did the recording and stuff.

And it was on the ride back that we had all kinds of these adventures. We stopped in some town. There's a whole bit in it where Paul says he gave me the map to choose the village. He couldn't decide where we were going to look for to have lunch on the road dinner or whatever on the way back. So I picked a town called Harold, because I liked it. There was an unusual name for a town as two hours.

So we stopped in Harold, and we were in this huge roles dame-ller or something. And so it was only a matter of seconds before the entire town of Harold, who had just arrived, because we stopped and wrote to one guy who was trimming his head, and we were looking for somewhere to eat. Then he ended up inviting us all in,

and his wife made us food, and it's all adventure. We ended up back in the pub, pulled Paul ended up on the piano. You know, so there's all these people still. If you look up, if you look at all of this, as people still reminiscing about when I was a kid, Paul McGonney stopped in our town and sat in the pub and played as a bunch of new songs, including Hey Jude, but which he'd just written. And you can see kids would go, no, but it's in black

and white and it's all true. And so on. So that and then yeah, but Derek says that's an example of one of the ones where Derek says, Paul Gatorbog to Peter Asher. Peter Asher looked at it for what seemed like three hours. It was probably 30 seconds. Oh, okay, that's right. I remember that now. How many years was that Apple experiment? How long were you He's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he it was mostly about Alan. I mean, yes, the Yoko thing was a contributing factor. But... Did having Apple add to the pressure of the Beatles? Like, had the Apple idea not happened and had the Beatles just been the Beatles?

Would there have been more of a chance that they would have found a way to stop? I think the Apple idea had happened, but I and Brian hadn't, Brian hadn't died. The Apple thing wouldn't have made that much difference. But I think because Brian died and then there's a hole, and there's nobody to go, let's think about how to make this make more sense and the account is telling us, or telling us that's out of control.

Because that was all, it was all those discussions that led to John going, we need somebody to be in charge of all this. I know the right guy, I'm Paul said, no, you don't. I know about that guy, he's a crook, you know, whatever the conversation was. Because I knew he was a crook, you know, I was already warned off him by people who were. And I believe John was too. Like, it wasn't he warned off on him by the rolling stones and- Yes, I think so.

And which you think would be enough. But Alan was very clever. Alan's whole line was, everyone's gonna tell you not to do business with me. That's because they're all scared of me. You know, they're gonna say, that I'm a complete content, you know, that I am.

You know, that may be true. Yeah, but I'm on your side. But I'm yours, you know I am. That may be true. But I'm on yours. And that's what you need. And John liked that. You can see John going for the idea that someone who's really deaf and unpleasant is going to be beneficial to them. Which is maybe the sum truth to it.

But he also was a bit crooked and would sign stuff that he wasn't supposed to be signing and transfer things and it wasn't a source to transfer and be you know. And so having a creep on your side is risky, you know, because he's still a creep. Do you ever get to meet Alan? Oh, yeah. Tell me about that. I met him and I'd heard about him already from some friends who worked for the Rolling Stones. And we didn't talk about much. James had a meeting with him. How long did you work? We didn't talk about much. James had a meeting with him. How long did he work with the Stones?

No. I know that he had Sam Kuko, right? Which also was when we impressed the Stones. Yeah, of course. He had Sam Kuko, it's publishing. Yeah. So what was the feeling when you met him? He was out to impress.

He wanted to be the tough guy. You know, and it was clearly, you know, that I expected him to fire everybody. I quit, and one of the people who didn't get fired, because once I decided to leave, I wrote a letter of resignation, which is the only thing I haven't found, it must be somewhere in the Apple vaults, because they've kept a lot of stuff. I'd be curious to see whether I gave any reasons for resigning, but I definitely left. And of course, he did for everybody. He carried on for a very short length of time. And John, as you know, admired that kind of toughness. He just kind of went, oh, he's,

you know, he's going to show them. And he did, but he showed everybody, including the Beatles. That's the problem. So before this, we were talking about coming to California and how different it was. And what was the music scene like here versus there? Trying to remember who I went to see. I saw the doors once, the whiskey, who I liked the keyboard player, wasn't sure about the band.

Well, Linda, Linda runs her, as she says, she said, the band's great. The singer's not good. How do you meet Linda? I was in New York, and I can't remember still who it was who said, there's a girl playing the bitter end who you should go and see. She's completely amazing. She's an extraordinary singer, an amazing voice, and she's ridiculously hot. And. And so I went okay and I went to Seer and it was all true.

Was she still in the band? What were they called? No. The ponies. Her solo. After the stone ponies and she'd had one hit single on her own that long, long time. And I went and I talked to her then. I met her then and it got a little bit complicated because John Boylan, who was, might have been her boyfriend at the time, although then might have been also JD Souther. But anyway, John Boylan had helped to put this band together which consisted of Don Hanley and Glenn Fry. And John David had had to help with that too. And that was the man that I saw her with, I think. And everyone, it was great, she's saying amazingly.

Silver threads and golden needles, it was the song that I remember specifically. And at the time, there was talk of me, I was initially came in, Linda asked if I would help a produce finish, sort out the album she was in the middle of, which was the solo album called Don't Cry Now, with some of which were produced by John Boyle and some by John David Sallop, and it was all in a bit of a muddle.

And so I did that because I loved her voice and was happy to do it, and some of it, I forget two or three tracks on that album were officially credited to me. And in the meantime, we did have a discussion about management because John recommended that I might be a candidate. But actually, the time I'd said no because I was managing Kate Taylor at the time, who had made an album, who I really believed in in love and I still do. But Kate Taylor, then retired. She decided the road was not for her. And the album stayed out and did reasonably okay. We made it out of an album for Atlantic. I'm a Atlantic, I'm a big fan of hers. And she actually called Linda and said, by the way, I'm not working anymore. So, you know, you should talk to

Peter again because he loved you. And I think that's, I think Linda called me because Kate told her to us. as I recall, and Linda told me that story. Anyway, so we just added that yes, I would be a manager. And so that's when the relationship began. And then the next album was the one I produced from scratch. And that was hard like a wheel where everything changed. Was her voice just astounding?

I sound familiar. You just couldn't believe it. Couldn't believe it. And then she's one of the great singers. She's one of the great singers. Her, if you haven't seen the documentary about Linda, I've seen it. I love it. It's so great. And that's when you discover, as you do when you watch the documentary, boy, you know,

she's so smart and so well read and so articulate and extraordinary and I freely admit the prejudice at the time I was probably guilty of sevens everyone else you think if someone's that good and that incredibly good looking and attractive they couldn't also be brilliant. Yeah it's too much. It's too much and I ran it to that of course the very traditional way that people would assume that I was the one choosing the songs, I was the one in charge of everything, you know, whereas in fact, every decision I made, every song I chose, quote, chose, was in conjunction with Linda.

And in terms of choosing songs, it's probably 70, 30 years. In terms of production, it's definitely 50, 50, you know. But that's good production, of course definitely 50-50. But that's good production. Of course. Whatever is necessary. Exactly. Being the boss isn't the job. No.

It's the best result. Exactly, so exactly. And Linda freely admits that she's not a producer. I mean, she's done it, done it well for some other people, but she gets distracted easily. But once we would decide the mission, and then I would execute it. But she's musically, of course, so brilliant.

And the fact that she could turn her genius to so many different musical genres from that she would do the rock and roll and the traditional standards, and the Mexican rancheras and beautiful ballad and nail all of them and put so much work into it. And suddenly decides you have to be very interesting too. Like it was very interesting seeing all the changes she went through because her the instrument to her voice is so spectacular.

Yes. And then to put on a whole new... To teach it opera, right? Yeah. To teach that opera, right? Yeah. To teach that voice, how to sing opera. You know, and she worked, I mean, even the film does a great job. Ah-ha, she worked.

She would have vocal coaching every day. Wow. And listen to every version of Labao Ammett, she was doing that in New York and so on. So she could, you know, explain how to sing. Amazing, too, to have such a natural talent and still the work ethic to do even better. We know or learn something new. Exactly. And her talent is so specific in the sense that it's singing. Full of stock. You know, she can barely be

persuaded to move when she's singing a song, a song. By today's standards, where everyone has to be able to dance and leap around. She can do, she does none of that. And the idea of production is appealing to her. When we did the Nelson Ridley stuff, and she got to put on those great clothes and fancy hairdos. She liked that, but generally directors will always go, OK, on this on this bit, you know, walk across or come down the steps and you go, no, you know, I'm busy, I'm up here, I'm singing. You know. How many albums did you get to do with her? Gosh, I suppose about five rock and roll ones,

then three Nelson ones, two Marriachi ones. Great, I love the Marriachi ones. Yeah, sing the, this is so good. This sings the shit out of that, that's so good. So brilliant. Very itchy ones. Right. I love the Marriottu ones. Yeah. Sing the sh- So good. That's so good. So brilliant. I did those with this guy, Ruben Fuentes, who was the sort of Nelson Riddle of Marriachi,

who was amazing and these great musicians. A great idea. My respect. Great idea. Completely and of course people would go, why are you diverging into all this other kinds of music? She went, no, I'm not diverging, I'm being retroactive, you know, because they were literally the songs she grew up listening to on her father's knee. They were the father's songs, and that's how she learned them.

And the weird part is, it was the political aspect, is that when sociological aspect, that back in America in the 50s, you were instructed forced to not speak Spanish in front of your children. You were told it's really bad. You're being a bad mother. If you speak Spanish in front of your children, they must only learn English to be proper Americans, which is completely insane. I mean, now everyone realizes of course you should

Spanish at home, English at school, you translate via granny, it's all that's the way immigration works perfectly. Instead of which she'd learned all the songs so we'd run into situations where we took the show on the road where she's up there singing you know in perfect span, a Mexican Spanish accent, is apparently perfect. So that she sings so brilliant, people would come up in the end of the show and start talking fast in Spanish.

And she'd have to go, I'm really sorry, I only sing it, which just seems so weird until you understand this. How she learned it. With Linda said in the playground, if two of you started to be in Spanish, she's on the hands, slap. Wow.

Physically slapped. Wow. Because it was like, that's on American. Yeah. And no, it's not. That's extremely American. That's the point of American. But even now, as you know, the people who don't get it, you know, tell me, how did you come across Tony Joe White? Uh, I was a huge fan. Yeah. I loved, uh, uh, but folks at an alley saw that any. I was a huge fan. I loved the folks at an alley, saw that Annie. I don't remember who suggested maybe I should do a record with them. It might have been the label and I met him, loved him. What a cool artist. He was one of... Nobody else like that. I know. Very one of a kind. And a great songwriter. People get

he wrote, was it Rainy Night in Georgia as well. I didn't know he wrote that. I love that song. Exactly. One of the things I was't know he wrote that. Yeah. I loved that song. Exactly. One of the things I was excited about with Tony Joe, of course, is I got to use some, you know, them musicians down there. Where did you record? Maybe Audent. And Mike Utley played bass.

I can't remember who the rest of the band was. Was it, were the band incredible? Incredible. Yeah. And I knew, I met Mike before because, Gordon and I, many years earlier, when we were on the road, when we got to Memphis, we'd made a big point saying,

can we go to the stacks studios? Would they let us in? And our mind is, the promotions guys from Capital are kind of going, no, no, no, no, we don't go there. It's not the bad part of town or whatever. And we said, no, no, please, that's all we want to see in Memphis. And they finally agreed to make the call. And they made the call and they didn't know we weren't.

It's great to come over. It was a fantastic day. We sat in the studio, we met Steve Kropper, who remains a friend. Incredible. Mike Utley, the bass player, Al Jackson, the drummer, and Bokerti, of course. And they were all coming in and out, and then they played us some tracks. But I didn't realize, they would have some tracks

where they just weren't sure whether this might be Rufus, it might be Collar, it might be Otis, you know, they hadn't necessarily decided who was who, but they played us as these incredible grooves and stuff. Just probably we'll have green onions and all that, you know, who could see stuff happened. And we were so impressed. And Jim Stewart, of course course who was the genius behind the whole thing you know who was the white guy along Steve Kropper and you know they

they'd establish themselves in this largely black part of town making completely back music and it's such a I'm there must be a stack of documentary there if there's I haven't seen it but I don't know if there is I've never seen one. What a story, you know, I don't know much about James Stewart. Somebody said he might still be alive but he's kind of a recluse but I mean that's an amazing story that all that music came out of that that group of musicians and the number of hits they had both for other people and for themselves you know as the MGs was pretty colossal., so I was excited to do Tony Giowa. I still think I could have made a better record. I remember doing things that I don't think I should have done,

like I may have not spent enough time listening to the way they wanted to do it. I'm like, is my instinct, the time was mono drums, I don't think so, you know, let's move on. It's always kind of going, no, no, I'd rather have the drums spread out like I'm used to, whatever. But I should have done it and they made a whole bunch of set records. It was so great that I should have started off saying, just make me a stacks record.

And then I'll interview if needed, you know. Welcome to the House of Macadamias. Macadamias are a delicious superfood. Sustainably sourced directly from farmers. Macadamias, a rare source of Omega-7 linked to collagen regeneration, enhanced weight management, and better fat metabolism. Macadamias, art healthy and bring boosting fats. Macadamias, paleo-friendly, cheetoel and plant-faced macadamies. No wheat, no dairy, no gluten, no GMOs, no preservatives, no palm oil, no added sugar,

a house of macadamias. I roasted with an amybian sea salt, cracked black pepper, and chocolate dips. Snack bars come in chocolate. Go-can-at-white chocolate and blueberry white chocolate. Visit houseofmacademias.com slash tetra. Did you ever see the Hell, Hell, Rock and Roll movie? Yeah, I was there, of course. I had no idea. Well, I was there because Linda's in it.

And the one Taylor Hackford did. That's why I got to know Taylor Hackford, who was a friend. And yes, I was there managing Linda, because she had to be fed and made it clear from the beginning that she wouldn't stay for the second show if it was like after midnight. Because she was quite firm on such things and she said, I promise I'll get it right first time. So not that you can tell from the performance, but Linda's, they only had one take to work from them, even anyone.

And then of course, Chuck, as you probably know, pulled a similar thing, different grounds that he went in and said, it's off the midnight, second shows another day, double life, double my feet. And that kept going, but Chuck, you know, all these people living for nothing, Taylor Hack, but Keith Richards being the band leader of you, you know, and take conscientious. Keith was doing great. He was really being a band leader. And wearing the jacket and the whole thing. And Chuck went, that's very nice of them. You know, they paid him. But in the end, but yes, it's a great movie.

I remember when I first saw it, I remember thinking, wow, Chuck is just a jerk. Keith is right about everything. And then I saw it probably 20 years later. And it's the same story you just told them watching. It's like, oh, Keith Richards is telling Chuck Berry how to be Chuck Berry. This is not right.

It's like I had it, but it only came, the wisdom comes with time and experience. But when we're younger, we think we know the right way. And then over time, we learn, oh, there's a lot of ways to do this and trust the masters. Yes, exactly. And clearly, the only instruction check needs is B-chuck. That's it.

It's just like, I saw in rehearse, it might have been the Red Rock show, it was something else. And of course, it was a local band who were backing him up. And on one occasion, it happened two or three times, he worked on stage, totally I said, you know Maybelline? I went, yeah, you know my show, left. And because every song starts the same, every song is mostly in the same key. So, you know, the band, you still don't know what song you start without knowing what song it is. It just figures it will make itself clear and it does. Amazing. And it's sloppy but it works.

Yeah, I think the some degree Dylan does a similar thing where he'll just start playing songs maybe even a different key. And Dylan you may never find out what's happening. Yeah, no, but Tom he would talk about when when they were the band for Dylan you just had to try to figure out what was happening. You never knew. You never knew. It was nothing was planned, and he would start a song and a different rhythm and a different key. And you just have to listen for some clue. Usually someone in the band would like,

everybody would be looking at each other. And one guy in the band would like, say what it was. You know, and they're like, oh, okay. Yeah, that's really funny. It makes sense. Tell me about being an artist on capital records. Your first trip to the capital records building. It was exciting.

But the first time we came into New York, America, was New York. I see. So we were thrilled, capital sent us a proper limo and whatever year that would have been a 64 Cadillac limo, to, to pick us up, you know, 64 the first year you came. That's when the first hit was. Yes, first it 64. We played the world's fair. We played that the the globy thing incredible hemisphere hemisphere hemisphere hemisphere. Unosphere. I can't remember the name. I think it's the unosphere.

We used to picture that in the gatefold of the Beastie Boys, the first Beastie Boys album. We did a photo session there. Oh right. Now that it's still a water in the moat. No. Because when we played there, it's got this sort of not very deep, sort of little canal around it, which is filled with water. And it was just things, the police at that time, they had to be at the Beatles all the time,

the police would go, no, there's nothing worry about we can handle it, you know, it's just bunch of girls and don't worry. And it would be wrong, you know, it would be completely wrong, they'd be overwhelmed in like 10 seconds. And I remember saying, oh, that's cool, there's, you know, there's a moat in the police, the police would, yeah, the girls won't come across that. Of course, as soon as we went out there,

the girls jumped in the moat and swim across. It's like an early wet t-shirt contest. It was brilliant. And we were counting, like, this is so cool. And these soaking wet girls coming out, not me. And it was great. I mean, that mania thing was bizarre. The strangest thing I ever saw, and I've told the story before, but, you know, we play

it. I say, we played a lot of places where the police would say, don't worry. And then instant you come out, which we were part of only in the sense that the Beatles were, again, leading the way, you know, but especially when they'd seen Hard Day's Night, the girls knew how they were supposed to behave. They were supposed to scream and go crazy and rush us, you know, us collectively. And they did. And the weirdest one was we were playing out of doors in like one corner of a baseball thing or something.

And at that time, those outdoor stages of often used to be just a couple of trucks pulled out next to each other truck beds. And so as soon as we came out the girls jumped up the down from the baseball seats and running running across the diamond, which go, go as we jumped off, we're running to some car or whatever. And I look back, my glasses fell off on the grass. So I let, picked up my glasses and ran on. And the girls were jumping down. And I saw some girl find the place where my glasses had fallen, pull the grass up and eat it. And I went, that is so cool. That's commitment. So she was eating the grass up and eat it. And I went, that is so cool.

That's commitment. That's commitment. So she was eating the grass. The power of music. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And of the Beatles, particularly. Because they, you know, the whole British invasion madness was Beatles related. So was that was Beatles Mania as wild before the movie or did the movie? I think the movie showed people their moves. So before it might have been screaming. It would have been screaming, but in their seats. I think so, yes.

Yeah, exactly. And they did catch you there. Nobody knew what to do. There'd be occasions when four girls actually make it and sort of catch you and they kind of stop screaming and kind of go Now what do we do? You know like what happens, you know Because they were all 14. This is a good question. This is related something Mick Jagger said a long time ago so because the stones are from London and

He said in the early days they didn't take the Beatles so seriously because of where they were from he's like never pull. It's like it's's like, nothing good comes from Liverpool. Exactly. Tell me about that. Is that a real like... Oh yes, yes. I mean, I don't think we thought less of them, but you know, the weird bar for us. Would it be like, what would be the US equivalent? Like, where would that be? I don't know, is it Pittsburgh? Yeah, like just the middle of nowhere. Yeah, I think so.

And, you know, so we would, and we didn't realize that until we get to America and people would go, what's Liverpool really like? You know, and I go, hardly ever been there. We've done a couple of gigs there, but, but, you know, I don't know. And everyone we knew from Liverpool, the minute they made any money, the first thing they bought was a train ticket to London.

That's where you wanted to go. That's where it was going to happen. The fact that there would be livable scene, which there was, I guess. There was the cavern and some other places. We were puzzled and surprised by the respect and adulation that was bestowed upon Liverpool. We were even Liverpool. And they'd go, what's it like?

I don't know. It's kind of a grim port town, you know. And they were these. Did the Beatles have a different order? The people from Liverpool have a different accent than the people in London? Oh, yes. You could tell where they were from? Oh, yes, absolutely. Or you were just could tell where they were from. Oh yes absolutely.

Or you were just a northern accent. No you know Liverpool. Yeah. Some of those accents are quite specific. I mean when Liverpool compared to Newcastle which is Jordy or let alone compared to Scottish. Yeah there's other towns. We would their own accents and Liverpool is very distinctive. Did you ever get to see the animals play? Yes. Tell me about that. I did. And I can't remember where it was, but I saw them and they were terrific. Thought Eric was great.

Thought Alan Price was great. And Eric's another one, just the voice is just so cool. Yeah, he's so different than everybody else. He's a really nice guy. Yeah. Yeah, Eric and I. They're from Newcastle, is that right? Yes, they are Jordy's which is means you're from Newcastle. I Eric and I ended up in New York together at the same time. We went to see Sam Cook at the Apollo.

How was that? It was amazing. Unbelievable. He was great and Billy Stewart, who was great. Yeah, and of course everyone told us, don't go, you know. And we would, you know, although we can't go to Harlem, you know, and we can't go in. Yeah, we can. We're English, it's different. And we found a taxi that would take us and went to the upper ofologist,

went there and bought us to get them, went in. And it's interesting. Sam Cook was completely fantastic. Although it's interesting. Sam Cook was completely fantastic. Although it's interesting, because I asked Chris Blackwell once of all those performance who were so legendary, who was the best in his eyes. And it was Jackie Wilson. He said, you know, yes, James Brown, yes, Sam Cook.

But Jackie Wilson was just so riveting with the microphone stuff and the great singing and everything. I never saw him live But I always thought that was interesting. Yeah, I got to see James Brown several times and always unbelievable Yeah, see him I saw in America and in England You know with I found I found some pictures there that had me in the audience at ready steady go Wow, because it was James Brown was on Reddystheddy Go, and it was me and somebody, or Barry Miles, the writer. We were in the audience and I had completely forgotten what happened.

How radical did James Brown seem when you were in London, what was that like? We were in awe, you know, again it was just part of this Miracle of American music. We just couldn't believe what these people could do Well, so we talked about you got to work with Elton at one point Yes, I will yeah, I've been a fan of Elons for ages. I went to the the famous Trubidor show Really, yeah, I was it. It was great. It was amazing because I knew about him and I think we'd already met we'd already met but somehow we ended up coming over to our house the same one long-awaited avenues I was still in he came over the next day and that's when he met James Taylor James was staying with me and

Elton came over with the band and he made his first album yet or no? Yes. Yeah, this was when, yes, he was promoting that I also needed that true bit of show. Yeah, and it was a legendary place. You know what, we had James in there. And Linda famously played there. Yeah, Linda played there a bunch. And the bar was where everybody hung out and swapped songs and all that stuff.

And that's where James and I heard you've got a friend for the first time because Carol, you know, what happened was after I'd asked Carol to be in the band for the album, then asked if she would come on the road for some of those dates because up till now James didn't play the troubadour of folk style completely by himself. But I wanted to do a week at the troubadour, now the record was out and doing well, with the band, the people who played on the record. So I got Ross Conkel and Cooch and so on. And asked Carol, she do it. She said, yes, and it was James's idea that she should maybe do a little opening

set because he knew she was about to make her own record and said, look, you know, she was terrified of being on her own. Said that maybe it's a way to get your feet wet kind of thing. So would you like to do 20 minutes off and I would have you on in front of my show, just on Ipiano? He said, all you have to do is play the songs and tell people you wrote them because no one's going to believe it. Because she looked like a 16 year old school girl, you know.

And that's what she did. But when on the day of the opening day of the sound check, James and I were in the little balcony at the truer door. We stayed stuck around just to give Carol moral support. And in order to just make sure she could hear the piano and do her sound check, she played the song, she just finished writing the night before. And that was you've got a friend. And that's when James and I kind of went, shit, you know, what was that?

And James said, and Phil says it's when James and I kind of went shit. What was that? And James said, and Phil says, it's one of the best pop songs ever written. And that's when he asked her if he could learn it and sing it. And so that of course, within three baby James was already out as a hit, but tapestry hadn't been made yet. So Carol and, and Carol said, yes, you can do it. But I'm going to do it on my record as well. So at the same time basically Lou was in the studio at A&M

doing her album and did a version of you've got a friend and we were in the studio at a place called crystal sound doing our version and the only secret weapon I have is Tony Mitchell sang all the background parts and The miracle was that it worked for everybody because you've got, James is big hit single. And on Carol's case, it was one of the key tracks on tapestry, which sold the gazillion billion records. So.

It seemed like the fact that both versions existed seemed to help each other. I think so. Because they were kind of different. And because I had, as I said, no piano. It was just James and Kooch on acoustic, which was a great sound. And I actually happened to get on handyman when we did that. That was kind of an accident. Kooch started playing the song in the studio. We were working on some other song and Kooch just started playing handyman very slowly. And James joined in and started playing and singing.

And I went, just a minute. So we actually recorded it, just the two of them and Russ playing a cardboard box or something, and then added the other instruments. I got to see James and Carol play at the troubadour together I don't know, five, six years ago. Yeah, exactly. Unbelievable.

Yeah. Unbelievable. Yeah, it was fun doing that. Because James was sort of worried about it. Didn't know he wanted to record it, but, you know, I said, we have to record it, you know. Of course, history. They filmed it with only like two cameras,

this is me, but made it work. Yeah, we were up in the little booth thing, the Daniel Conkel on me. I might have been in that same booth. I don't know that was something. Probably. Yes, exactly. Right, exactly.

So we were getting to Elton John? Yes. So yeah, I saw it all in the original tribute or show. And yeah, as I said, he came over to our house afterwards. And I've known him and liked him so much for a long time. We haven't worked together that much. I did some tracks on a Randy Newman album that Elton was on, where Elton played an angel. It was a brilliant album.

You know, Randy wrote a version of Faust and we did this recorded version, which was really extraordinary. James Taylor played God, Randy played the devil, Donna Henley played Faust, Linda Rons that played the good girl, Bonnie Raid played the bad girl, and Elton John played the English angel. It was an insane cast. I said to Randy afterwards, you're the only person in the whole world, I think, they could actually make it out with all those people on it and have it not be it. It's extraordinary because Randy is such a genius, you know, one of the great geniuses

of pop music. But, you know, somehow people don't get it always. And this, this musical is so good and the cast was so insane, but the public didn't quite catch on. It seems like there's a line between the way Elton plays piano and the way Carol Kim plays piano. They both have a real soulful, almost gospel influence in their styles. It's true.

Yes, I think that's actually right. Elton's a bit more rock and roll, you know, in the sense of the hammering right hand. But yeah, that's true. I think the thing that I mean, mutual fans. The thing that I like about both of their music, I feel like there's some line that works. They both have that thing. And it's not a thing that most piano players have. I think you're right. And they're also both not jazzy, you know. And I mean, God knows I love jazz piano. I think you're right, and they're also both not jazzy. Yeah. And I mean, God knows, I love jazz piano. I mean, I can't beat Bill Evans, but they have very little of that in their playing.

It tends to be simple and not full of like little extra jazzy notes or jazzy noodles at any point. And I think they have that in common. And they both are brilliant accompanists, you know, for themselves. They both play exactly the right part to fit their singing. Yeah. And I guess both wrote the music for other people's lyrics. That's right. I guess I don't actually know for a fact. Did Jerry Goffin write the lyrics

first? I don't know if he wrote them first. I don't know but he said he wrote the lyrics and she wrote the music. Because what's unusual about Elton of course is that it's absolutely lyrics first. Yeah. That he can take, you know, a piece of paper that just arrived from Bernie Tobin, stick it up on the music and you'd swear he had to look at music. You know, you'd swear he was looking at a piece of music because he just plays it and you know he's written with other people brilliantly of course to Tim Rice and others but there's something magic about him at Bernie Webb it's as if Elton knows the song so he's the lyrics.

Tell me about I never got to meet Diana Ross but I know you got to work with her. Tell me about her. It was amazing. She, I mean, I was nervous because you hear these stories, you know, they call me Miss Ross and all that stuff. And my impression, first of all, she was charming, you know, I'd met her years before. I'd met her when, for the first time,

when Peter and Gordon were on Hullabaloo. Wow. And the Supremes were on, you know, to get to meet them was, you know, an immense thrill because, you know, we boarded every record that came out on Motown and they were so charming and so beautiful and so extraordinary. So that was exciting. And then when Diana and I worked together, I was, as I said, a little bit nervous because of the stories one had heard. But she was helpful

and charming and ran, I had no issues or problems at all far from it, the opposite, in fact. I remember the engineer and I at one point were sitting down, sorting out a vocal or doing something on the board and we felt her stand up behind us. She'd been sitting in the back of the room and we were going to go, oh this is it, here we go. And she said, you guys have been at this for a while, can I get to use some coffee or something? We went, oh my God, that was memorable. But even more memorable was the very beginning of this session.

Because I think I'd count the track without her as far as I can remember. Anyway, first time she goes out on Mike and we're sitting in the control room and she's not singing on the mic. The only reaction is, holy shit, it sounds exactly like Diana Rossi. It's amazing. That's super distinct voice that's sang in a stop in the name of love and so did you know so well. She's right there. You know, and I could hardly contain myself. And that's got to think where you

don't know whether to communicate any of that to the artist, whether it's just too silly, but you know, you don't say, I couldn't believe it, but you do say something. Yeah, it's so say something, you know. Yeah, it's almost like when you get to work with the people who you've spent so much time listening to, it's hard to believe it's happening. Right. It's hard to believe it's actually happening.

Right, right. Exactly. They walk the earth. That's why you and I both so extraordinary lucky. But yeah, whatever status. I remember the first time I got to see Paul McCartney play live was in a stadium, you know, 80,000 people, something like that.

I'm somewhere in the middle of 80,000 people, nose bleed area, and he starts singing, and I just start crying. It's like, that person wrote these songs, I've been hearing my whole life. He walks the earth. Yes, it's unbelievable Well, that's right. I mean, I do feel bad for Paul because you know Yes being famous can be annoying on many levels, I suppose but I

See I've personally seen Paul deal with the situation where he's introduced somebody or meet someone and they cannot speak Yeah, literally it's too much Literally, it's too much speak. It's too much. And he ends up going, it's okay. Or they cry. They can't speak and they cry. And that would be disconterting when that's a given risk of anyone you're meeting, that they may not speak and they may cry.

I think that must be, I guess you're knowing. It must be weird. It must be used to it by now. I know. You obviously figure out a policy. And I've seen him pat people on the shoulder you know, it must be weird. It must be used to it by now. I know, you obviously figure out a policy, you know. And I've seen him pat people on the shoulder and go, it's okay, you know. But it's sort of odd. But that, and there's very few people in that situation.

Maybe Mick, I don't know. But, but policy is a one-off case, you know, that you actually, and wrinkle, but wrinkle, there's something more light-hearted about it. Yes. And everyone's admiration is massive. Everyone loves him, because he's, you know, he's still the cute one, the one everyone loves, you know.

But it's not quite the same thing. But as you say with Paul, is that realization that legend occasionally is reality, you know, he's a is reality. Yeah. He's a real person. Incredible. How important every member of that band was, it just fit perfectly. I've always said it's just like, it's just like it was a spy skills thing where someone would put them together only much better and nobody did.

God did if the same thing. F God did if those things. Yes. You know, fate, both them together. Yes. And I've said that too. It's like the Beatles had proof of the existence of God. It's too much. It's too much to be that good. And to be that much better than everybody. Yeah. No, no, there's no metric for it. Exactly. No, you're absolutely right. Yes. What did you get to work on with Cher? Some great songs, Hard of Stone.

I did. After all, that duet with Peter Satterer, that was a big hit for a movie, The Movie Sucked, but the record was good. But she's great. I mean, she's working with her, is extraordinary. She's so hard working. I remember we were working with her is extraordinary. She's so Hard working. I remember we were working on that version of it's in his kiss that I did with her for

Momades which ended up being a hit everywhere except America for some bizarre reason and You know she was great. She don't know how to work new the song everything and she liked at that, she used to like the track completely done as much as possible. So everything was finished. And there's that first moment when you play it and you go, oh, this is okay. But it was. And so she went out there and sang it, did like four takes or something. And I said, I think we have it. That was all great. Let me piece it together. You know, give me a few minutes or come back, whatever you want. She's an all-way. And she goes out and in the lounge, there's like the guy designing the perfume bottle, the costume fitting for the next movie, the guy writing a book about her or something. And you know, suddenly realize I'm a mere aspect of the miracle that is shared,

because she'll become really successful as a movie star and then go now I want to make another record and then we'll go, no that won't work, you know, so she wins a Grammy, so she has a number one record. Now I'm gonna make a movie, it's like nobody else has done that, you know, and she does it really well. I love her voice too. I tend to love... I love her voice. I love singers where you know in a bar who it is. Yeah. You know, ten seconds of music and you're absolutely certain.

That's Diana Ross, that's Cher. That's Linda Ross, that's Natalie Merchant. Yeah. We both got to work with Neil Diamond. Yes. What was your experience like? Tell me. It was great.

You know, I was always a Neil fan. I always thought he was an underrated songwriter because the whole this Neil would distract people from Neil, the solitary man genius. I love the record. You did it with him. I think of him as like Bruce Springsteen before Bruce Springsteen many ways in the early days. Yes. There's people now that we realize definitely when the singer's songwriter category in the same way going back further Buddy Holly is yeah, who had a vision of what their songs could be and Neil's written so many

So great songs and as they being a showbiz phenomenon as well as a Musical phenomenon something Dylan this dutifully avoided, you know to the point where they almost is, it's joe-beers that he sings every song differently. You don't know what song you're doing. No, I had my Neil enormously charming and... Great singer too. And a great singer. I mean, no, I insisted as you did with getting him playing and singing on the track,

because that's the essence of the great Neil Diamond stuff. And the songs are so odd. They're not shaped normally. And they... Even when you hear the monkey songs that he wrote, that you could tell it's a Neil Diamond song. So specific. Exactly, exactly.

And the hooks are all over the place. Yeah. I mean, who would you who would think that in in sweet Caroline the hook turned it out to be the instrumental Bop between the lines That's the part of the everybody's things that you know every that's the moment of the song everybody knows it's full of hooks The course itself is incredibly catchy and brilliant course, but you never get the impression he's trying to write a hit, you know, but it's not that kind of hook. It's not constructed that way, but it's genuinely brilliant songwriting, you know.

And some interesting lyric twists and stuff, again, a bit like Buddy Hollywood, who would put weird words in a weird order. I mean, true love ways. What kind of a sentence is that, you know? But it works as a song. Yeah. Was Buddy Holly a big inspiration as well? Yes.

Yes, we were huge Buddy Holly fans in England. And one of my regrets is that I was 14 when he toured England. And I can't remember why I didn't go. Maybe I couldn't afford it. Maybe it was the exam time my parents wouldn't let me. It, maybe I couldn't afford it. Maybe It was exam time my parents wouldn't let me go to be some mundane reason and I remember thinking well. I'll see him next time Yeah No next time because that would have been exciting. I'd like to be able to say so Elvis in Vegas when he first Vegas come back That was great

But I missed buddy Yeah, tell me about the experience of going to see Elvis in Vegas. That sounds great. I never got to see Elvis. It was great. Yeah, it was really good. He was already doing all the karate stuff with no that. But I mean, it wasn't quite like Mystery Train Elvis, who's probably my favorite Elvis of all. But it was young and handsome and fit Elvis, you know, and he was terrific. Sang great. Everything was fast.

At that particular era, the live versions were like, cranking it in terms of BPM, no question. Ronnie Tutt, the great drummer, but they were racing through everything. But I suppose it was just like the exciting live version, you know, but I remember thinking, that's a lot faster than the record. And he played all the hits.

He played all the hits. Talked to the audience much in between songs. Little joky aside since that was I recall. And sounded just like an Elvis imitation. But I don't remember him saying much. Maybe just mentioning the song or who wrote it or something like that. Making fun with the band members. I mean, I remember Ronnie Tutt telling me, because he was subsequently on one of those tours, when they started doing the 3D hologram thing,

not 3D, it wasn't really a hologram even, this was the first time they used Elvis on film and playing with the band because he separated the vocals. And Ronnie Todd said that the weirdest part was that it was exactly like being on the road with Elvis. There was hardly any difference because they didn't see much of him on the road. I see. He hung with his friends, you know. And they even included the thing where he introduces the band by name. Yeah. So he go on drums, Ronnie Todd and Ronnie go to the stand-up bow. He said it was really spooky. Amazing. Oh, tell me about Steve Martin because we didn't talk about Steve. How did it happen? I've known Steve Martin often on for a long time. And we kept running into each other and gradually became closer friends in the last few years.

But I remember, I mean, he, for example, opened for Linda in the Golden Bear and Huntington Beach. I think I found an ad just doing stand-up. And I'd go out to know him gradually. And he's always been a band-gre player, much admired. I love Blue Cross Band-Greau and he's really good at it. So I was having dinner at this house in New York, and he was telling me that he played me these banjo tunes before, actually, he'd written, because he writes the little instrumental pieces just for the fun of it, and he'd done the instrumental music for the New York Shakespeare festival and things

like that. But anyway, he'd played me some stuff, and I'd told him how good it was, and then he said, well, I've actually been playing some of it to Edie Brichel, who he didn't know particularly well, even though he and Paul Simon are close friends. But he said that he'd run into Edie and played us some of these bits and pieces. And she said, oh, I love that. Can I write some songs on it? And he said, yes, of course.

And what she did was brilliant. She'd, we expected it to kind of essentially put lyrics and melody were necessary to the existing piece of music. But what she did was write a whole other melody that made the existing piece of music sound like the perfect accompaniment. So suddenly there was the bandje apart being the accompaniment to this melody that Edie had written.

And at a subsequent dinner, he played me that and said, you know, what do you think, I said, I think it's great. And you know, you should make an album because E.D. said to you, terrific singer. And said, you know, we should turn this into an album. So he said, oh, and I was on the plane home the next day when he emailed me and said, we're gonna do it.

You wanna produce it? And I went, yes, yes, yes. Right. So, essentially, we did it pretty much banjo and click. It was very much assembled. So, I'd get the perfect banjo bit and line things up a bit and then work on the vocal and add instruments as needed. So, it's essentially like a bluegrass record.

But I did things like, I had Esperanza's folding play based on something I'm saying, because I loved the idea of getting some jazz baselicks under a bluegrass banjo, which she loved as well, because there's some odd notes in there with the drone and things which the bass has to account for. And then I put some percussion on it, some strings and some instances in it.

So it's not like a full-on bluegrass record. And Steve and Eddie were cool. I was doing all that on my own. They were a bit happy. Great. And Paul was happy, which counts a lot. Yes. As Edy's, you know, if you have clients,

husband is one of the best songwriters and record producers of all time. Yes. You do go, you know, has them, have you played in the kitchen? And yes. Yes. The answer is yes. I haven't heard his new album yet. I hear it's great. I bet it is. I hear it's great. They're always amazing. Yeah. His last one was great. Yeah, so that was exciting. And, you know,

Edie's breath-taking, credibly in tune, brilliant phrasing, very original. Again, totally idiosyncratic and delivery. You know, you know, right away it is. You know, she has this little band with Steve Gad, the Gad about, but it's great. That is so good. You know, they made an album or two just for the fun of it, I think. And I forget about it, oh, peanut paladino. Oh, he's incredible. He's killer based by that. Incredible. And Oh, peanut balladino. Oh, he's incredible. He's killer bass back. Incredible. And Steve Gad and love.

Have you heard peanut solo album? It's ridiculously beautiful. I haven't. You'll love it. It's out. Beautiful. I will listen. It's him and Blake Mills together.

Oh, great. Oh, great. It's so good. I'll listen to that for sure. Yeah. Really adventurous, really jazzy. Great. Yeah. He's extraordinary. I'll listen to that for sure. Yeah. Really adventurous, really jazzy. Great. Yeah. He's extraordinary. I love that DeAngelo Voodoo album and he's the bass player on that. Oh right.

DeAngelo is incredible. Yeah. Great album. Cool. Cool man. Well thank you so much for doing this. It's a pleasure. No, it's a pleasure. No anytime, if you want, you know anytime you want more of them, round along the road. It's good, thank you very much for coming. you