THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.127 - HOLLY WALSH

Episode Date: July 13, 2020

Adam talks with British writer and comedian Holly Walsh about stand up, boarding schools, farts (and other things you don't want to hear in a podcast), Hilary Clinton and the problem with mopping. The conversation was recorded remotely on June 30th, 2020.At the end of the podcast there's also a short chat with comedian Richard Herring about how we can support live comedy in COVID times.Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production support and to Matt Lamont for additional editing.RELATED LINKSSAVE LIVE COMEDY (PETITION ETC.)JUST GIVING PAGE FOR COMEDIANSBRAZILLIAN POP GEMS OF THE 60s & 70s (SPOTIFY PLAYLIST, 2020)ADAM BUXTON'S RAMBLE BOOK (AUDIO BOOK AT AUDIBLE, 2020)PRE-ORDER SIGNED HARDBACK COPIES OF RAMBLE BOOK AT WATERSTONES (2020)THE OTHER ONE (BBC I-PLAYER, 2020)THE R&B FEELING (DOCUMENTARY ON VIMEO, 2015)The R&B Feeling is a documentary directed by Marcus Werner Hed with Nathaniel Mellors about artist Bob Parks - his outrageous performances, fall from grace, complex relationships, fight for recognition and the tragedy that goes on to remake his career.AMERICAN TEEN (Directed by NANETTE BURSTEIN) (YOUTUBE TRAILER, 2009)WHERE TO FIND HILLARY CLINTON DOCUMENTARY (RADIO TIMES WEBSITE, 2020) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human folk Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan. Hey, how are you doing, podcats? Adam Buxton here.

Just taking a walk on a hot afternoon in early July 2020. Up ahead is my dog friend Rose. Rosie, come say hello. She's quite panty at the moment because she just went on a run with my wife. And now she's a hot dog. Rosie, let's go this way. Rose, come on. Before I tell you about my

guest for this podcast, I wanted to say thank you so much to those of you who sent me very kind and thoughtful messages after the last podcast that I did with Joe when I was talking about my mum's death. I was very touched by the messages I got. They really made a difference and made me feel overall less kind of lonely and mad, you know. Anyway, podcats, thanks. I really appreciate it. So look, as a small thank you,

here's a great podcast for you. And this was fun. I had a good chat with Holly Walsh for this episode, number 127. Holly is a British writer and comedian. Here's a few Holly facts for you. Holly is currently aged 39 and based in London. aged 39 and based in London. She is one of the writers of the BBC sitcom Motherland. Starring, amongst others, Anna Maxwell-Martin, Lucy Punch and Diane Morgan, friend of the podcast. According to Wikipedia, the show examines the trials and traumas of middle-class motherhood. Holly started working on the show back in 2016 when she was pregnant with, I believe,

her second child. As you'll hear, she's been working on a third series of Motherland during lockdown. Holly is also the creator of another BBC sitcom that premiered recently, The Other One, starring Ellie White and Lauren Soka as two women named Catherine Walcott. They are sisters who had no idea the other existed until their father dropped dead. That's the premise of the other one and it's on the BBC iPlayer if you missed it. When Holly was young she was sent to Christ's Hospital, a public school with an unusual admissions process that places an emphasis on offering applicants from less privileged backgrounds the opportunity to attend as I discovered Holly was a boarder while she was there and as I was also sent to boarding school when I was little

we compared a few memories of the experience Holly began her comedy career in the mid-2000s and was nominated for an Edinburgh Fringe Best Newcomer Award in 2011 for her first hour-long show, Hollycopter, based on her experience of being hospitalised after jumping off Worthing Pier in a homemade helicopter. We don't talk about it, but I thought you'd like to know. What we did talk about was stand-up comedy

and why Holly hasn't been doing it for a while apart from the lockdown and we spoke about it before it became clear that the uk government's 1.57 billion pound support package for the arts which was announced recently, was not going to include funding for live comedy clubs, as far as I'm aware. Many of my favourite guests on this podcast, and many of my favourite people in the world, have been comedians who have relied on live comedy to hone their material and make their living. And if you, podcats, would like to help that scene survive the COVID lockdown recession, then stick around at the end of the podcast when I talk briefly about the future of live comedy with the Shadow Chuckle Secretary of British Comedy, Richard Herring.

Of course, there are many people and many of you who have been badly affected by this crisis in one way or another. people and many of you who have been badly affected by this crisis in one way or another but I hope that my short chat with Richard might encourage you to spare a thought for the stand-ups as well but first my conversation with Holly which was recorded at the very end of June 2020 and in addition to stand-up and boarding school we covered what did we cover farts and other things you don't want to hear in a podcast uh hillary clinton because i'd been watching a documentary about her and the problem with mopping but we began with what is fast becoming a new podcast cliche the remote recording technical chat. Here we go.

Ramble chat, let's have a ramble chat. We'll focus first on this, then concentrate on that. Come on, let's chew the fat and have a ramble chat. Put on your conversation coat and find your talking hat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la What do I do with this? I can't see you. Okay, I'm holding up a large black, what looks like a dildo, but is in fact a microphone. I don't know what to do with it.

That microphone, you have it already plugged in, right? Because there's a little blue light on it. The blue light suggests so. I've broken the tripod oh mate already what have you got against tripods well a lot it turns out i mean the tripod's definitely broken there's a bit of it that's a broken you smashed it yes you absolutely smashed it i've got two they're like tiny drumsticks i'm so used to my son is often coming to me and saying dad i broke this or this thing is broken or that's broken and it turns out you know he means that

he doesn't know how to switch it on or something that was like my 70 year old mother yeah so finding out that you actually have broken something it was a surprise is this is a disappointment have you ever thought of getting a job as a apple it guy yeah no i would be rubbish whenever my wife gets in a pickle and asks me for advice because i use computers a little bit more than she does she immediately gets very defensive and she is just on alert for any sign of frustration or impatience from me. And then she immediately just goes, oh, don't bother then. Oh, just don't bother.

Hello. Let me see if this is working. There's some stuff going on. But is it coming out of my computer or this? Have you launched QuickTime? Yeah, I'm recording this as well. All right. I mean, I'm recording the zoom feed so you

know we've got a backup but i just my listeners are very particular they are sound queens they don't like it when people eat or breathe strangely i have to say i listened to the one this morning yeah and joe was eating a little bit wasn't it he? Joe was eating and drinking. I could actually hear him masticating. It was quite extreme. I did put a warning in the description of the podcast saying this does contain the sound of eating because people just lose their absolute shit. That fart. Do you know what? It was such an awful fart as well.

It wasn't a neat and tidy fart. It was such an awful fart as well it wasn't a neat and tidy a wet fart it was so gross i don't know who his pr is but i would have cut that he did say i mean this is listeners if you haven't heard it this is episode 126 with joe cornish and it's quite a strange one because it's an emotional conversation between myself and joe about my mother dying but at one point when i go out of the room joe just lets rip with as holly says quite an exaggerated and it's like a library music fart actually when we feel a bit sick i'm sorry i must have synesthesia or something because the sound of it i could smell

it i can smell that sound i'm sure it's delicious corn balls only does very fragrant farts he did say he assumed that i would cut it out but i i asked if we could keep it in because i thought it was funny um did you listen to the episode about surveillance capitalism with shoshana zuboff i loved that well did you not have a problem with her eating her chicken salad i did have a bit of a problem with that if i'm really honest i mean i did as well if i'm really honest but i really struggled in the moment because i was intimidated by this extremely intelligent and successful person who was giving up her time and the last thing i wanted to do was tell her that

she couldn't eat her salad and she also she told you if i remember rightly i haven't eaten in like nine hours and my assistant is worried about me so i need exactly yeah yeah yeah everything was pointing towards it being a bad idea to say uh you know people who listen to podcasts really really hate it when people eat things. So if there's any chance of you not having that salad for two hours, that would be great. Can we get her a drip? Is it IV? Is that a possibility? I've got a little bit of speed. And if you take that, then you'll forget about the salad. It'll be better. But point your camera down down can i just see what setup you've got

there it's very sounds sexy the way i said you know i'm not wearing anything oh i made a knock it over i'm sorry this is good man this is the modern world i think i saw it and it looked good i'm just gonna hold it and it's gonna look like I'm in a 1940s news reader. That's good. Perfect. You know, I feel like a sports commentator. You do look a little bit like one. I'm going to take a picture of you.

Adam, I'm so nervous about this. This is probably one of the things I've been most nervous to do for a good while. Make a recording on QuickTime. Well, you can see why. Everyone shits themselves about QuickTime. Have you been sent any free microphones by... no you would think so wouldn't you but not so far this is really annoying because i've got one hand holding this microphone and i was really hoping to get on with a bit of tapestry while we were talking but i guess i'll just have to concentrate fully on you tapestry how long have

you been doing tapestry since lockdown oh really just started yeah well 101 days into it sure it's been a while but but you weren't doing tapestry not before but no i was big into pom-pomming before but now i'm into tapestry pom-pomming being making pom-poms or waving them making pom-poms but i got a bit worried that I'd inhaled a lot of, you know, pom-pom dust. I thought I'd given myself pom-pom lung for a while. So I transferred tapestry thinking it was a bit safer. Do pom-poms give off dust, inhalable dust? Well, I mean, I was using very cheap acrylic wool.

Dirty pom-poms. And I assume if you're sort of trimming acrylic wool a lot there's a sort of certain amount of pom-pom dust in the ether around you and it was this was before the days of mouth you know like um face masks so right okay nowadays we just use face masks obviously because we know about them exactly face masks were i think originally developed to deal with pom-pom dust yeah do you know um one of my fondest memories of when i was gigging was that festival we did at number festival number six was it oh yeah and you had what i would class in my head as a blinder i mean you couldn't have charmed that tent more. There was like kids and old people and

everybody loved you. Sure. I think I was comparing it and I don't think, I think in my head, I remember thinking, God, I'd love a gig like this one day. Wow. Where was that then? That was in, was it the one in Wales? Yeah, Port Merion. Yeah. Hello, fact-checking Santa here. It wasn't Port Merion. It was Green Man Festival in 2015, actually. Oh, I'm exhausted now. There's almost certainly other things wrong in this podcast, but that's all I've got time to check today. I'm going for a nap. Bye.

Do you do stand-up still, though, like out of COVID times? No, I don't. I sort of fell out of love with it a bit, I think. Why? What happened? Well, I had kids, and it was just really hard to sort of fell out of love with it a bit I think why what happened well I had kids and it was just really hard to sort of you know drive to Warwick and back in a night without feeling exhausted and I don't know I think things have to work themselves out a bit for stand-up like I don't feel like I was writing stuff that I connected to I sort of felt like I didn't really feel that connected to my jokes for a while right and I also felt like the bits

I really did enjoy were just sort of riffing with the audience but then I'd come off stage and get really worried that I defended someone or you know I'd said something in the wrong way you know I just think I got a bit paranoid about I think I overthought things and that my worst nightmare is to sort of say the wrong thing on stage and then be cancelled for it you know like that's my absolute worst nightmare so I think I not that I'm in any way controversial but I just think it's so easy to slip up nowadays that I think that's one of the reasons why I'm sort of dreading doing this podcast, because I don't want to have, you know, podcast remorse. No, you won't have podcast remorse. This is not the kind of podcast where I rub my hands with glee if someone says something that might be misunderstood.

We generally cut around it. OK, fine. Do you know Seamus, my producer? Yes, I know. I've known Seamus for years. Right, okay. So you'll know he's an excellent fellow and a good judge of what is going to be understood and what is not going to be understood. Yeah. So don't worry.

He didn't cut the fart though, and that was disgusting. Didn't you find it funny though? It was too gross. And I think that was my threshold for grossness. Really? It was like, yeah, it was gross art comedy, that single fart. But you'll forgive me. Will you forgive me for that?

Will you forgive Joe for that? Yeah, as long as he learns from it. I think if he can move on, then yes. There you go. That's all we're talking about. We all make mistakes and we grow as human beings. And that, I promise you, will be the last fart that I include in the podcast. But the reason I thought it was funny, it just seemed in such comically stark contrast to everything else that we were talking about.

It was really funny. That's the trouble. But the fart itself was wet and that is disgusting. Maybe the mistake I made was to keep the real fart what i should have done was go back and just do foley like this there you go that would have been perfect that was like a little whoopee cushion fart his one honestly had a spit to it it was disgusting well he could have i could have just done that one of those ones up close to the mic. I like those ones. But I think that it's weird going back to what you said about fear of getting counsel for something you say on stage.

As far as I'm aware, that hasn't happened too many times because it seems to be understood still, even in these sensitive times, that if you're saying something on stage you're protected by a different contract it's like if you publish something or if you put something out and you've thought about it and you either upload it on a podcast or you tweet it or you put it on your blog or whatever it is but if you have made the decision to release it and make it legendary or permanent then you're accountable for it and then you could be cancelled but if you're on stage that's a safe space isn't it maybe maybe that's like a safe unsafe space i think twitter should be a sort of safe space like that obviously that is not the case but how many people tweet without thinking or drink tweet or just say stuff i mean

how many times have you read a tweet and gone yes i completely agree with that and then the next day you've read something else and you're like thank god i didn't like that because now i realized that i completely disagree with that i just spend my life doing that. Yeah, absolutely. Because you can read it in a variety of ways, you know, and it really depends so much on where you're at when you read something online. You've got no reference for how that person meant it, whether there's a smile in their voice, a wink. Even emojis don't really properly convey where something is coming from. I think there should be fonts for different feelings like if you're saying something ironic you've got to do it in wingdings ironic font that i mean yes but i think the conclusion i've come to is well partly just to

not do it but if i do to be more or less neutral and to write it as if I'm writing an instruction manual you know yeah it's like that um terrible thing you know dance like nobody's watching an email like it's being read out in court I really do think that because I've done that before I used to really try and write expressively and do jokes in emails and say weird things and sometimes i'll read back an email that i wrote years ago i don't know why maybe i'm just searching through for reference or something and i'll see one of my little funny jokes that in my head was quite funny but but then i read it back and it's like what the fuck was the person supposed to make of that you know i said a totally weird thing at the end of a of an email and they maybe they would have read it with my voice in mind but almost certainly not and they just would

have thought what a strange thing to say god so it is best to be neutral but when you're on stage you know that's the wonderful thing not that i'm some kind of genius of the stand-up world but the times i have had fun and seen other people really in the swing it's so clear that that's the special thing about it is that you're in the room with these people and they know where you're coming from they'll forgive you for screwing up a little bit depends it depends yeah yeah depends if they like you but what if you go on stage and you say something that's just not great, which is quite often comedians say that when they're working a joke out. Yeah.

You know, I'm not really an edgy comedian, but I always sort of look at edgy comedians with a mixture of awe and like, are you stupid? Because to get to the point of writing a brilliant joke, you sort of had to have found the boundary, pushed it, gone over it, and worked back to the point where you go, all right, here's the line.

Like, the weird thing about our job is that we're sort of always trying to find the line. And most people are trying to get as far away from the line as possible so as not to offend anyone or get sacked. Whereas we're like, no, we have to try and, you know, work out where the sort of furthest point with this is. And I find that really fun and great,

but I think I just sort of lost my nerve a bit on stage doing that. And I think I have to build that back up again and come back to that. I think it's something that I have to just sort of work out in my head a bit. And I've really enjoyed writing and it's given me a bit of perspective and sort of space to work out what I find funny and stuff. Yes. Because sometimes I think I just made dick jokes or like rude jokes or whatever, just because it was sort of funny coming out of my mouth. But I don't know whether I want to be doing that. And it's much funnier to think of really great jokes that suit you

and suit your character and stuff. Yes. Than just go for the old cock and balls. Yeah, I was talking to my therapist about this exact same thing yesterday. I think one of the reasons why I probably got into comedy to do stand-up was because it felt sort of safe but non-conformist you know insofar as it wasn't like I became a drug dealer or did something genuinely scary and you know breaking the law but being a stand-up sort of felt a bit naughty and swearing for a living felt great yeah

and I guess I just want to sort of work out a bit more of what who I am on stage I mean don't get me wrong I love a cock joke and I love swearing I love both those things but I think I just want to work out a bit more what is it I want to say on stage if people are going to sit and listen to me what do I want to say so I sort of taken a bit of a break from it to kind of recalibrate a bit which is maybe good or maybe stupid and i should have just kept going and learned and got better on stage and done it that way but that's what i did yeah no i think it's good to take a break every now and again because if you just carry on plugging away i mean i can totally see the value in comedians who say oh

you've got to get your stage time in there i've got to do at least two shows a night and if i take a break for more than a month i feel as if i'm dying and and all my funny muscles have gone okay i can sort of understand that but also the progress you're making is very it's going to be very a to b whereas if you take a good old break and you flood yourself with a whole bunch of different experiences or just disrupt the routine in some way there's there seems to be a better chance that you might just come at the whole thing from a totally different yeah i agree because i think i was doing you know club sets and whatnot and i would just go to those jokes that I knew were like bulletproof,

that I knew I could get the crowd with. And I'd go out there and I felt like I was being paid to do it. And I wanted to do a really good job. And so I tended to go for the sort of set piece, literally like the set. Whereas what I really found fun and exciting was just trying out new stuff and just keeping writing, keeping developing that. But obviously you had to weigh that up with making money and sort of, you know, doing shows and what you can't just do new material all night, every night. So I think I just sort of came to the point where I just didn't feel connected with my set when I was standing on stage doing it to, you know, a really lovely audience.

I just felt like I don't know if I feel anything for this anymore so I decided just to kind of pack it in and go off read loads watch loads think about other stuff and then like hopefully I mean COVID came along but then hopefully go back to it with a kind of some stuff I really want to talk about in whatever way that is or just feels like it it is relevant to me and not a joke i've been doing for three years because it works and is doesn't feel like me anymore does that make sense yes completely the good thing about writing though you just get to do jokes for other people that you can't do which is really good and invent

characters and write stuff you know write characters where cock jokes are really funny and do sound good from so yeah that's what i've sort of ended up doing and then when you are writing for tv so so far the main things that i'm familiar with that you have done are motherland you were one of a small team of writers on that show and then you've got your new show or at least it's a show that's been in development for a while is that right called the other one yes the other one yeah and that just came out on bbc one those are the two sort of main shows that you've written or have you written for other shows before then as well um sharon and i wrote a show called dead boss

oh yes sharon horgan that is and i've written a few other bits and bobs here and there and then sort of done stand-up and panel shows and had children. Yeah. And so because you write with other people on a show like Motherland, how does that work? Do you divvy up the episodes and go off and say, all right, Holly, this is your one and you're in charge of this one or is it all more collaborative we tend to work in partnerships so i'll work with sharon and helen and barunka who's one of the writers worked together and then that's just getting it

all down and then we just sort of mix it up and send it back and forth and then we all end up just kind of piling in on each of the scripts, putting in jokes and whatnot, sitting in the room together. It's a very collaborative, fun experience. I've done it. I've been working on series three throughout lockdown, and that's been so nice. It's like having a group of friends that you sort of check in with for a few hours a day and just...

I've really, really been grateful for my job in the last few months, just having kind of an excuse to you know have social contact with people outside of my my bubble as it were that's great that's so nice to hear yeah my own experience of writing is almost exactly the opposite it's lonely it's paranoid it's full of doubt and but that's why you should write with someone else yeah but i've tried writing with someone else and i just sat there in silence because i was too embarrassed to say any of my things and then when i did say one of my things the response i would get was not whelming you want to be whelmed it would be nice just to be whelmed you know what i mean i'd like you don't want to be overwhelmed just a simple come on that's no one wants to be overwhelmed you're so modest you don't want to be underwhelmed

i'm just going for a bit of whelming that's all i want just a solid bit of whelm yeah just a bit of whelm what's wrong with that maybe you're writing with the wrong person maybe you need to find another person quite right maybe that's true or maybe i'm not talented or maybe i'm just a stupid prick who can't work with other people because i'm so selfish and pathologically controlling and an overthinker which is i think part of the problem i think you've just described me. That's all my problems. But I still think you can work with other people. You just have to find someone equally as shallow and shit as you are and self-involved. Okay. You'll be fine. Oh, mate. There's loads of those people around. Yeah, exactly. This is great. I can't wait to team up.

I think your problem is you're setting your standards too high. You need to lower your bar, find someone equally as awful as you, and then go for it. BAFTAs, here we come. All right, wet farts, come on. Oh, God. Well, it might be that me and you know you never know like as long as their whole fart conversation hasn't destroyed my relationship with joe you never know we might end up uh back

in a room trying to write together again you'd be brilliant writing together maybe this is the time yeah maybe now we've all grown up a little bit now you've got the farts out of your system i'm never gonna get the farts out of my system it's hard to say we've all grown up a little bit when the first 20 minutes of our conversation has been about farts and fucks yeah well i do believe that toilet humor is a valuable leveler and i've personally i'm not prepared to abandon it no i don't think i've ever really regretted a bit of toilet humour in the way that I've regretted attempts to be edgy and attempts to emulate some of my comedy heroes, which just didn't suit me at all, you know, and I've definitely done that. Yeah, everybody has.

You know, I just thought, oh, I love that. I love the way they say that. That's great. I'm going to try that. And hearing it back is just like, mate, what are you doing? No, I know. just thought oh i love that i love the way they say that that's great i'm going to try that and oh hearing it back is just like mate what you're doing no i know which is another reason why it's so important i think to just be understanding with people when you look back over their past you know people are constantly trying out different modes and i don't just mean in comedy i mean just

as a human being everyone's always flailing around trying to find a version of themselves that they're happy with have you ever thought about writing fiction for young adults why does this sound like the kind of thing sounds like the cool teacher the cool teacher talking to the guys but i think um i don't know if the young adults would agree with me i feel as if maybe i'm just totally out of touch but i do feel as if young people are sort of quite harshly judgmental as a generation yeah but i think they're also so wise yeah i really have been like this this whole like black lives Matter stuff I just listen to people younger than me talking and they're so smart and eloquent and they have such a better

understanding of things that I feel like when I was a teenager when I was in my 20s we were so rubbish compared to them I'm just I'm constantly amazed and I sound old, very old now. I'm not that old, but I really genuinely am like, oh, maybe we're not going to hell in a handcart because there's a lot of people out there who are quite switched on and have a much better idea of how things work than we ever did. We were just dicks, absolute dicks. How old are you, if you don't mind me asking?

Eleven. God, you look at least 15. Thank you. I've been out in the sun a bit. I'm nearly 40. Are you? I'm knocking on 40's door. Whoa. Do you know what?

You do not look like a 40-year-old. I mean, I don't know how you feel about comments on your physical appearance i've got very bad gum recession have you there's a gum recession going on in your mouth i'm really sorry to hear that when did the downturn begin i wish someone would furlough my teeth just try and save once you get through the recession then they can all pop out again when did that begin has that always been a problem young young in my 20s i remember going to the dentist they said i had gums that were the age of you know someone 20 years older than i wow mature gum yeah when i was younger it always meant like i'd never get id'd

you just go in flash your gums spice my guy some booze load up on cigarettes couple of saga magazines thrown in and I was off. All your friends wanted to take you to the cinema so they could get into 18s. Show them your cuffs. you I'll dip you in my tea but pull you out before you fall apart I won't abandon you biscuits biscuits mice do you know um when I when I was listening to your last podcast yeah I feel like that was another reason why I didn't know if I wanted to do this podcast because I really felt like I was gonna shit where I like I really love listening to your podcast and I was worried that if I went on it and totally screwed it up then I couldn't go back there and I'd be so gutted

but um when you were talking about those memories of your mum and you were saying how she sent you parcels at school yeah with like all those chocolates and stuff I was just like oh my god like I went to boarding school and I thought of what my parents did for me in those first few years at boarding school like sending me exactly that my dad would write to me every week and I kept all his letters and I know I'll never read them back because I know once he dies it will just be too hard to read back any letters that he wrote to me you know and it's such a strange thing though that sort of memories of being like at boarding school and desperately just wanting to go home and then your mum and dad do something really sweet for you and it's just

overwhelming thinking about it now like I mean they didn't love me enough to keep me at home but that was still a really nice gesture to send me chocolates and stuff i know that's it's a strange thing isn't it that they are the ones who are sending you away and really causing you all this heartache and really making your worst nightmare come true in a lot of ways but they are the only ones who can alleviate it a lot of the time. I didn't know that you had gone to boarding school. And did you ever have that thought, though, that like, my parents did this to me. So I, you know, did you ever get angry with your parents for sending you away? I went to boarding school so close to my home that they could have easily done the school run like that wouldn't have been difficult it wasn't like they sent me you know they sent me far away it was

really annoyingly close I could see signs that's even worse I could see signs to my village near my school but um no I I you know what weirdly I didn't feel like they'd I never felt rejected by them but I was so massively homesick for the first three years I really really struggled with it I mean I I've spoken to my parents since and they've said that they did question whether they'd done the right thing and think maybe we should we should take her out because I just wasn't happy and then after three years suddenly something clicked in my head and then had the greatest time like then really enjoyed it and never never rang them and never wrote to them and just had a great time and how's your relationship with them now if you don't mind me asking you know what I lived on a very much a need

to know basis with them for quite a while but having sort of having had kids and stuff I've really really found that a a way of getting back I'm really close to them now and I've always loved them and always been quite you know always loved seeing them and whatnot I suppose it was more that kind of feeling of um you just sort of get on with your life I don't know about you but in my sort of 20s and early 30s I just sort of would call them every couple of weeks and that's more than i did check in i wasn't like calling them about everything and discussing a lot with them no and i was always a little bit baffled by people who did yeah like why are you friends with your mom and dad yeah that's weird you call your mom every day what do you talk about

what you like ask her to do your washing every day or what i mean what do you what do you talk about what you like ask her to do your washing every day or what i mean what do you what do you say but i don't know about you but we were like when i was little at school you know when i was 11 you weren't even allowed to call them for the first three weeks you were there and then i think you're allowed to phone them once a week you know it was very kind of maybe just get into the habit of checking in rather than having a kind of constant conversation with them and and you're away from them for sort of six weeks at a time or whatever so yeah you do kind of learn to be quite independent which is a good lesson in a lot of ways but also i don't think i'd send my kids to school no because it's all about i mean the whole presumably, is to foster a sense of independence and to toughen you up to a degree.

You know, get you used to the whole concept of separation from people you love because life's hard. But how old were you when you went? How old were you when you were there? I was nine. You went to nine? That's very little. Because, yeah, I went at 11 and I feel like that was, I was little i was really sort of young 11 year old as well i sort of spent my entire life just running around in the garden and then suddenly i was at a boarding school it was quite peculiar but wow yeah nine is young yes there were people there who were younger than i was as well

i think there were sort of seven and eight year olds and did you find that you have you been chatting to your therapist about having the tendency to form unhealthily intense romantic and sexual relationships because you went to boarding school that's supposed to be a thing do you know I haven't got to that bit yet but maybe that's what she's building towards and you just gave me a spoiler alert that that's what all of this is is that what your therapist is telling you no it's something i read in in the school magazine in the prospectus did you stay at that school from the age of 9 to 18 no no um i stayed there until i was 12 but then by that time i was so accustomed to that way of living i.e not at home that i ended up going to another boarding school until i was 18 in London, even though that was

much closer, I could have easily commuted. And Joe was at that school, but he was a day boy. So you could be a day boy at that school. But I, I was so used to being away from home and the kind of intense relationships that you form with people when you're living with them 24 seven that I said, yeah, I'd rather be a boarder so that's why I ended up doing that and I didn't I mean that proved to be the undoing of my dad financially but he he sort of said all right yeah I'll do that I didn't have any conception that he was way out of his depth and couldn't really afford it did your brothers and all your siblings bored yeah they did yeah so they sent all of you away at least they sent all of you away

yes no they didn't keep the good one back at home they even sent the good one away because my brother boarded as well and i think i would have really struggled if he'd have stayed. Yeah. At least we were all banished. And now I remember it was nice when my sister turned up at boarding school, although it wasn't very nice. She was very homesick and I felt bad. I used to have to go over. The matrons would come and get me and say, can you come and be nice to your sister? And I'd have to go over to her dormitory and she was

crying I mean it is brutal really when you think about it just a little girl and she's so distraught that her brother has to come over and tell her it's going to be okay and then she can go to sleep I had a matron called Jackie Chan. Did you? That's a very good rejoinder. I was really hoping to be house captain of my house, but I had such a bust up with our matron. With Jackie Chan? Like, not with Jackie Chan, with somebody else.

I had such a bust up with my matron that it got reported back to my housemaster and I didn't make it to house captain. What was the bust up over? Apparently I shouted in her face, but I didn't. I was at least three metres from her. But she said I shouted in her face. Not that I, this is what I mainly talk to my therapist about. I was at least three metres from her and I was wearing a mask. It was fine. Three metres from her. And I was wearing a mask.

It was fine. It was 1997. It was a very stressful time. I was about to do my A-levels. I'd just finished my archaeology mocks. And she said no to the cough link. What was I supposed to do? Did you do archaeology?

Yeah. Did you? I was a digger on Time Team. No. There's an episode of Time Team where I'm digging in a trench. Shut your face. Yes. Is that really true? Yeah.

Yes, yes. Were you a regular digger on Time Team? No, just a temp, just in and out. It was pretty cool, actually. Did people do quiz ego at your school? Yes. Oh, my God. I haven't heard that for a very long time.

That is something that nobody i've ever spoken to in who's had like a real world education which i've ever connected to that is old school sort of posh education stuff isn't it that's a latin thing right that was if you had something that you didn't want anymore like in our school it was if you'd finished your if you'd eaten half your super noodles you'd come you didn't need any more you'd hold up the saucepan and say quiz and whoever shouted ego would get it and it was sometimes a bit of a kind of lucky dip like you don't know if you're just getting sometimes you'd just be getting an empty pan and you'd have to go and wash it up it was a risk quiz being spelt qis meaning who yeah and in latin i go meaning i did you have keeping kv yes what was that one

that's keeping a secret wasn't it you were like no no you were like you keep kv oh that's watch out yeah you keep an eye out i'm gonna go and try and get those super noodles that's right it would be like kv kv randy's coming randy's coming kv jackie chan's coming kv yeah kv being like caveat isn't it like caveat and tour watch out yeah kv i think is watch out my school was so complicated though because we it was like all our years were called mad names and we wore tudor uniforms and marched into lunch every day to a brass band and no way yeah it was so nuts that i so someone will go like you know when you're in like fourth form and you did this and i just don't have a i'm like was that little Erasmus?

Okay, yeah, now I know what you're talking about. I didn't know the years. I don't know. I don't know years at school. And I tell people, I'm like, yeah, I was in my Grecians and it was really, this happened. And people are like, what are you talking about? I just don't, there's so many things I don't understand about normal life because of my weirdo school. Are you going up to semi-fontleroy next year?

Do you guys remember in Micklemore's term when the Grecians used to do turnovers on the beds? That was classic. What about when you were new? What was the word for the new people? Squits. Yes, squits. What was yours? Yeah, we had squits yes squits what was yours yeah we had squits i just remember like i remember getting there and it would be all this fucking lingo and kv and quiz ego and you're a squit and i just

thought fuck you you stupid cocks with your stupid little fucking language that you fucking think you're so great with your little... I hate this! And then, you know... Three years later, you were like, shut up, Squiz! Echo! Echo! KV, Randy's coming! And you can speak the language,

and you're part of the gang, and you know how to do it all, and it's great. What was the contraband situation? Contraband, where you weren't allowed sweets and you weren't allowed food, really, of any kind. And you weren't allowed electronic equipment. No Walkmans, no video games.

You know, well, not video games, but they had game and watch. No calculators, just a simple abacus. You're allowed calculators and you were allowed digital watches. Although it was the dawn of digital watches and then the line started getting blurred because some digital watches you could play space invaders on them so what the hell are you going to do about that so basically as we alluded to earlier you know it was up to parents to make the decision as to whether they were going to secrete contraband in packages and that was just wonderful to get a package

there would be parents coming in for a leave weekend with a chocolate wrapped in a condom yeah my mum would turn up with a caramac stuffed up her arse. Then we had to wait for the right moment to get it out. Sometimes there'd be a whole bunch of Yorkies up there too. You'd end up eating the minstrels just so they didn't. Yeah, if the condom burst, then she'd just be leaking Maltesers. Out of every orifice. The condom burst.

It would make absolutely no difference. She would just maybe have a slight spike in blood sugar level. Yeah, she'd get all animated. Your mum practising swallowing condoms with butter. Oh, sorry. Swallowing condoms with butter Oh sorry I think my mum would have laughed at that I'm not sure my dad would have done He would have shook his head We're halfway through the podcast

I think it's going really great head. slab of talking i'm interested in what you said thank you there's fun chat and there's deep chat it's like chris evans is meeting stephen hawking have you been watching the hillary clinton documentary no do you know the one i'm talking about it's just called hillary so i think maybe it's on sky and it is directed by nanette Burstein, who directed a film called American Teen a few years back. It was a kind of a documentary about a group of American kids who were reaching graduation. I think I saw that. Yeah. Did you? Because I had a real problem with it because it seemed as if she had sort of restaged crucial moments. as if she had sort of restaged crucial moments you know for example there was one scene in which a girl was being dumped by text by her boyfriend or something i may be getting the details slightly

wrong but you see the moment that the text comes in and you see her getting upset and i just thought there's just no way that that was caught. Yes, it was sort of directed reality or whatever the phrase is. And I just don't like that genre. I just I just feel like I would rather know that something is real, even if it's not as dramatically satisfying as it would be otherwise. Anyway, that's by the by. That was a few. I think 2008, maybe that came out. But this documentary is really amazing.

I think really worth seeing because what's your opinion of Hillary Clinton? Like just, Oh, hot take on Hillary. I just feel very feminist towards her. Like I want to see her succeed because I want to see a woman succeed in that country, in America. And obviously she was... She's come to so much baggage that it's difficult, isn't it, to sort of separate her from the history.

Also, I'm very cool about people having multiple email addresses. You know, that's something that I feel very comfortable with. Exactly. multiple email addresses you know that's something that i feel very comfortable with exactly i've got a few email addresses also i'm saying you know and i'm i can't remember which ones i signed up to work with so fine and you'll put official secrets in there fuck it they always go to spam though the official secrets yeah i always miss. But your initial response was not like, oh, she's corrupt. She's evil. She murders people, which, you know, a lot of people do feel about Hillary. And I do remember in 2016, there were a lot of people who were saying, well, there's no real choice. I mean, it's a choice between two disastrous candidates, you know, Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton.

I mean, they're both as bad as each other. A lot of people I remember saying. And I think maybe I started saying something similar, like, you know, obviously I don't like Donald Trump. He's a maniac. But I mean, Hillary is not much to like, though, is there? And she seems a bit dodge and she's a bit kind of self-interested and she's propping up the establishment. I'd kind of trot out these soundbite opinions of her in that way.

You were like, we're between a rock and a hard place, when really you were between a rock and a slightly dubious mattress. Yeah. I mean, according to the documentary, I was between a very spiky rock with a wig covered in shit that was oozing toxic slime and instantly turning everyone evil that came into contact with the rock and wanted to basically destroy the world. I was between that and just a lovely, sweet, soft book that was going to teach me how to make everything all right. That's an exaggeration. But the documentary is definitely good for, well, it changed my opinion of Hillary quite considerably.

You wish you hadn't donated all that money to the Trump campaign now. I'm kicking myself. I'm just thinking, what? Oh, I got sucked in by his good humour. By the wig. I got sucked in by all that fun, outrageous bants about pussy grabbing. And I thought, finally, someone who's not afraid

to admit to a bit of fun, harmless pussy grabbing. That's my guy. He tells it like it is now let's start draining the swamp that's what i thought if i was gonna do a some sort of rally i'd definitely shout quiz and then i'd wait for the whole crowd to go yes that would be the ruling elite would all shout ego and it would just Hillary would be shouting ego she was a brilliant human rights lawyer for years before she became Mrs Clinton right exactly yeah I mean watching the documentary you just get this sense that

she has weathered so many of the kind of scandals and storms that would have instantly crushed most other people and she has got through them and she's still plugging away and it turns out you know i suppose you could take issue with the details of the documentary but it does seem fairly clear that the majority of those big scandals were hugely overblown and were like capitalized on by her opponents to an incredibly cynical degree. Yeah. And also none of them, they hardly had sort of, you know, clean sheets themselves. Yeah. I mean, is that the phrase? Clean sheets, yes, yes, yes. Shiny underwear. None of them had shiny underwear. No, there's a clip of Donald Trump.

You know, I mean, take your pick, really, with Donald Trump. But there's a clip of him at some rally in 2016 ranting about Hillary and going, this woman is sick. And talking about Bill Clinton and saying she is married to one of the most evil men. He hates women. He hates women. This guy, he disrespects them. And I just thought, like, wow. I mean, that's the secret of Trump's success, obviously, is by loudly saying the opposite thing that he truly believes just for political capital. He's brilliant at the one word diss, you know, like the crooked Hillary. brilliant at the the one word diss you know like the crooked hillary crooked hillary yeah it's sad it's sad it's very sad no she's bad she's naughty bad bad she's bad just shameless levels of uh

hypocrisy from some of her opponents did you listen to the slow burn about monica lominski no cast it's brilliant but that explains all about sort of the arkansas kind of background of that you know the scene that they came out of you know the scene i don't know if you call it a scene the like the ragged scene the vibe i'll tell you can i recommend another documentary to you that's so brilliant it's called that r&b feeling i think i think it's a bbc imagine is it called that r&b feeling googling i am googling the r&b feeling 2015 documentary the life of artist bob parks including his outrageous performances and fall from grace it is brilliant but when you were saying about how annoying you found it

when documentaries set up something bad happening or like something happens and you feel like it's... The beauty about this documentary is that it is absolutely not about the thing it turns into. It's so brilliant. Look, you can see it on Vimeo, on the Museum of Everything channel. Good recommendation.

I'll put a link in the description of this podcast yes i actually should caveat it just for you to say maybe don't watch it at the moment i just remembered what it's about and i don't know if you should watch it dead mums there is a dead mum in it so maybe give yourself a break on that one but it otherwise would be right up your street okay thank you and thank you for the thoughtful trigger warning. But just to return to Hillary for a moment, the episode that I watched last night with my wife and my eldest, I think it was the third one, covered the whole Monica Lewinsky scandal. And I mean, the thing is that Bill Clinton has been accused of multiple sexual assaults even and harassment yeah well that's what that slow burn thing is all about all the different um relationships and dodgy stuff

that he was involved in yeah there's a fair few women who've come out against him although he denies them all he denies them all he admits to affairs with monicainsky, obviously, and Jennifer Flowers. And I suppose that is the thing that is most suspect that makes you question what kind of a person Hillary is. Even though you sort of, hmm, you sort of think like what kind of the prejudice, as far as I can tell, maybe in my own mind is mind is like well what kind of woman would stay with a man like that you know but you don't know their setup no like without without I mean yeah I think you know I would probably think like that and then you think well

you don't know what's their deal maybe they've got a good healthy deal just because it's not what I would do and what would upset me doesn't mean to say that maybe she had a lovely time in the arms of others and who am i to judge well exactly and that is the humane and intelligent response but i'm just sort of reporting my own uh you know prejudices that i've now overcome thanks to um you thank you. By the way, if you ever want to call me just to check in on what the kind of correct thing is. Moral check.

I'm not the person to call. All right. On this one occasion, I got it right, but I rarely if ever do. So do not call me about this. In fact, just don't call me ever. But I suppose if unfaithfulness suggests the other person doesn't know about it but if you've kind of got a sort of loose even unspoken agreement where that's the kind of you sort of know then i don't know right right i don't think that was the case with the

clintons though i mean it doesn't seem to be and there's an interview with bill in this documentary where the director is saying to him like you know what were you thinking basically like didn't you have any conception of the disastrous consequences of particularly the lewinsky affair you know for your marriage for the people you work with for monica lewinsky for the country as a whole you know would have all these repercussions and you can really you can you can make a case for tracing a lot of some of the shit that's gone wrong nowadays back to that point oh you're making it sound so like the fool like it's very biblical yeah but you see you know you sort of think he was supposed to be like

finally we've got a democrat in and he's going to fix everything and he's going to show you that democrats aren't just weedy they can get things done and they can bolster the economy and they can take care of marginalized groups and you know hooray and then he goes and does that and immediately makes himself sort of illegitimate and just a whipping boy for the right but i mean arguably it's like you can do all those things and also be unfaithful to your wife and also you can be really upstanding never cheat on your wife never do anything bad and then you know drink drive or something like that you know like isn't that just human nature does it mean that what he was politically trying to achieve is completely you know it's the it's going back to your favorite

subject of like cancel culture you know like just because he did something bad does that make him an overall bad person or does that make his motives bad you know all these sort of things i don't know yeah i don't think i don't know maybe i'm wrong but i sort of feel like he's a human being i mean look at beyonce and jay-z i do all the time i mean they're perfect and amazing but no you're absolutely of course you're absolutely right but the way that these things get filtered through to the general public it appeals to people's, you know, worst kind of judgmental instincts. And the thing is, in this documentary, he says, you know, of course I didn't. I wasn't thinking about any of those things because you don't in that moment when you're being etc. You are just trying to have a moment of fun because you are in a kind of super pressurized environment and you don't know if you're doing the right thing half the time and you're making decisions that are going to hugely affect great swathes of people. Imagine the kind of pressure you're under oh my god it's like when people go into office you know it's like when tony blair and barack obama went

into office and they're all young and fresh-faced and smiley then they come out and they're all haggard and white haired and it's only five years later their gum recession is extraordinary yeah i mean it's a nightmare job and so i I think Bill Clinton was just, you know, I just wanted to have a little bit of Monica fun. And that's all I was thinking about, really. I wasn't thinking about the rest. He doesn't say it in that voice. I bet he does.

That's probably how he seduced her, in that voice. I just want to have a little bit of Monica fun. Look at your flowery dress. That's a nice one. Is that from Gap? Do I bang on about cancel culture ad nauseam? No, you know what it is. I'll tell you what it is.

You definitely don't. You know what it is? It's that it's my sort of like current hot topic in my head. So I'm sort of fascinated by anyone who, and I think I hear it. You know what I mean? Like if you ever mention anything about it it suddenly resonates with me are you thinking though hooray he's talking about cancel culture again I am interested in it or are you yes yes absolutely

yeah yeah absolutely to be honest ever since I read that John Ronson book you know the um so you've been publicly shamed it's haunted me I've been so haunted by that book I think it was one of the most haunting books I've ever read in my life i agree with kind of like how it's stuck with me and how i've thought about that book so i think it resonates with that it's me it's basically what i'm saying is if you were a rush bugger test what are they called rorschach a rorschach test i would be seeing that in your podcast the Ross Bridger test is whether you read the Guardian or not

or used to I'm old but you know what I mean I hanker for those words if that's possibly an acceptable thing to say out loud. holly i was going to ask you about your mopping technique please i could get serious about this i've got one of these amazing mops right that has a kind of built-in squishy bit on it not

squishy bit like what do you call that oh like a spray yeah so it's like a container that's near the mop end that you and then you mop it it is a game changer i'm not joking people come to my house they see it they ask me where they can buy it luckily i i sell them it's called the holly mop the only thing i will say about it is that it breaks very easily and i've got through about six that sounds bad that sounds like a bad mop but also you have to factor into that that i mop more often because of it okay and that most mops are very unhygienic you should just get rid of them most of the time anyway. Right. Because this is the reason I asked you, because I don't mop all that much. But since the lockdown, I've been mo-mopping.

And actually, I've rather enjoyed it. And some of my most carefree times recently have been performing those kinds of routine tasks, cooking, etc. What are you mopping off uh you know just grime in the kitchen on the kitchen floor the kitchen we've got like a wooden floor but it just gets black with dirt and food stuffs and bits of ketchup and things that have been dropped on it all you know like standard kitchen floor stuff what's the doesn't your dog deal with some of that rosie will lick up the excess but she's not going around licking so much that the floor sparkling afterwards it needs a mopping have you ever thought about putting some sort of anti-back on her tongue kill two birds with one feather or

whatever the expression is so yes getting a little bit of mr muscle and just spraying it in her mouth or even just simple bicarb if you're worried about chemicals i mean i've thought about it only because she has occasionally very offensive breath and when we're getting intimate it's not very nice uh i've never thought about spraying Mr. Muscle in my dog's mouth, and I wouldn't recommend anyone else does either. Use Cillip Bang. What's the one? I've got another one that is, I was liberally spraying it around the other day because we ran out of Mr. Muscle and I got this thing off the internet. I went online.

I was trying to re-up on the kitchen spray stash. They didn't have my normal brand so i ended up buying this strange different brand that had loads of good reviews underneath it and it promised to do an incredibly good job and it was much more tough on stains than any of the others so i got sucked in bought it anyway it is tough on stains but it's also tough on human lungs it is the most toxic thing like you literally have to open all the windows when you're using if you inhale the fumes from just three sprays on a worktop you're going to be coughing up blood do you have to go into it like you're in breaking bad wearing the full-on sort of yeah meth kit that's right exactly so it's dangerous but i was

mopping the kitchen the other day and it did occur to me like i'm essentially just slopping water on the floor and then just moving the dirt around and you know occasionally i'll put the mop back in the bucket and i'll squeeze out the excess and i'll be satisfied because the water's so dark and i'll think oh look at all that dirt that i've collected off the kitchen floor but actually then i'm just putting the mop back in that bucket and slopping it back on the floor and moving it around and then the filthy water just dries on the kitchen floor, right? I feel the same about baths and showers. You know, when you get in a bath, all the water goes up all your holes. Nozzles.

Nozzles. Bumzles. Everything. Bozzles. Vazzles. Vazzles. And it washes it all out and then you're effectively lying in a bath of your own... Excrement.

Excrement. Then if you don't do that, you're just docking up the excrement. If you don't do that, you're not even cleaning it. Yeah, that's why showers is a better option, right? Well, it's not, because I'm talking about up. You what? I'm talking about up. Showers don't go up. Showers don't go up.

Showers don't go up. Yeah. You're never going to get water penetrating the same depth in the shower as you are if you're lying, relaxing, let's say relaxing in the bath. Unless you're using the shower very, very, very thoroughly. Yeah. Well, I mean, you have that option, right? If you're really the shower very very very thoroughly yeah well then you mean you have that option right if you're really worried about deep cleansing to take it off the holder or to stand on your head turn it up for give yourself an enema but no i think uh i i i think

you're possibly wrong about that i think that there's showers are fine and they'll get rid of all the stuff that you need'll get rid of all the stuff that you need to get rid of i guess a b-day would cover all of this specifically yeah the french have got it all sussed i went to dubai once for gigs and we had b-days and i did come back and miss them it's very hard to come back from that yeah i remember seeing b-days in hotels in america when we first went to america me and my family with my parents and they told me it was a bath for dolls that's so sweet

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Hey, welcome back, podcats. That was Holly Walsh talking to me. Thank you very much, Holly, if you're listening, checking back. I really appreciate your time. That was fun. I loved talking to you. And I hope you'll come back again sometime. There are links in the description of this podcast

to some of the things that I spoke about with Holly, the R&B feeling, the trailer for the Hillary Clinton documentary, link to the iPlayer for Holly's show, the other one. link in the description to a new playlist for you. Back towards the beginning of lockdown, I made a bold promise that I was going to create a ton of Spotify playlists to keep your toes tapping and keep you chilled out throughout the lockdown. I made a few, but maybe not tons. Anyway, my son has made you one. My eldest son, Frank, he's nearly 18, and he has been spending a lot of the lockdown discovering a lot of music. He's always been a big music fan. And recently he went into one of the sheds and came back with a few boxes of vinyl records that have been there for a long time. And in amongst those, he was very excited to find some Brazilian music, some of which he knew about already, others he wasn't so familiar with.

So he's been on a Brazilian pop and psychedelia jag, mainly from the 60s and 70s. The other night he put some on and even his brother, who can sometimes be a little bit the Liam to his Noel, started nodding along and saying, yeah, this is really good. Yeah. And so I said, oh, you should make a playlist. Anyway, he has done and it's really good. I knew some of the stuff on there. Marcos Valle, forgive my pronunciations of some of these names, Gilberto Gil, Milton Nascimento, Os Mutantes, Caetano Veloso, Baden Powell, Vinicius de Moraes. Is that how you pronounce it? I don't know. But there's loads of stuff on there that I hadn't

heard before. It's a very good selection. So have a listen. I think you'll enjoy it. Spotify playlist, link in the description. Right. As I said at the beginning of this podcast, I spoke to Richard Herring recently just about the impact that the COVID crisis has had on the live comedy scene and sort of where it's likely to go from here. And I was interested as well in what, if anything, people like me and you podcats could do

to help you know if you're inclined as I said we've all got stuff that we're dealing with but if you are able to help either financially or just with general support then I think there'd be a lot of people in the stand-up community who'd be very grateful. And it's a community that I'm obviously very fond of. Anyway, here's my short conversation on the subject with the great Richard Herring. Aha, here we go. Richard Herring has entered the waiting room for this meeting. I will admit him. Hey, hello, Richard. Hello, how are you doing?

I'm good, man. How are you? Not too bad. I'm feeling all right. Excellent. You look marvellous, can I say. My listeners can't see you. Yeah. But you're just growing into a very handsome, mature man. Silver Fox. That's very kind of you to say so. I just saw a photo of myself from a year ago i was on a diet last year and i lost a lot of weight and then i saw herself a year ago and thought oh no

look at me now i'm looking at you now and i like what i'm seeing but listen man i i yeah we we should do a podcast together sometime soon i'd love to get you back on mine but today i just want to um i just want to briefly talk about the situation with the live comedy scene and the fact that it was notably absent from the government's recent arts bailout package yeah i think my understanding is that it's not classed as what is it it's not classed as good no he was talking about the culture secretary was talking about wanting to prioritise the so-called crown jewels of the arts. Yes. And evidently, live comedy does not count. Yeah, it's a sort of weird thing. I mean, you know, it's hard to peg most standard comedy as art, but I think it's creativity at the kind of coalface and at its best, I think it is. I've

been on Twitter about this and people really misunderstand what the comedy circuit is a i think they imagine all comedians are on tv and are super rich and don't have to worry which is true of you know many comedians including myself i'm i i can weather this storm and you know you and i do lots of work that isn't live work as well so it's it's kind of this is not a disaster for us as much as i'm missing doing the live shows and i did make a reasonable you know living out doing uh the live shows but most comedians uh 90 of comedians are people who work basically hand to mouth they have a lovely life of learning how to do this hard job getting good at it it takes 5 10 15 20 years there's people on the circuit who've been going you know 30 years and probably

more than that and you become very good at it then that's your life and then suddenly without warning i mean there was a week's warning maybe that this might be happening their entire revenue and all their work has taken away so they might gig for four or five nights a week they'll make 50 or 100 or 200 pounds a night it's not terrible money but they're not the kind of people who've saved up lots of money and you know it's not the kind of money that you can go i'm going to save this up and buy a house you know it's it's a reasonable wage but to suddenly lose all of your work and then not and there's no prospect of us coming back in a full-on form i think this year i don't think it'd be nice if i've got some gigs booked in for the autumn but god knows if they'll happen yeah i was supposed to be doing a book tour and that they reschedule that for october and but now i think they're

saying actually it's looking more likely for spring next year and even then you're going to be looking at venues that are half full in order to comply with social distancing measures which is going to be very weird. I mean, it won't. That'll be business as usual for me, obviously. But for live comedy, it'll be particularly strange. Well, logistically, it won't work. They all work on very tight margins.

So it's not just the comedians who suddenly have no money and they can go and get other jobs if they're lucky. But the problem is if you don't work for seven or eight months that's going to be a problem and then if you come back and the clubs have all closed down because they can't afford to reopen even the more major clubs they're working on this idea that you know 50 100 200 300 people will come in through the door every week or every day uh that's how they're basing their model uh it's a it's a lot harder than just saying oh well's a it's a lot harder than just saying oh well open a room in a pub and some communities will come in and people will

you know you've got to publicize you've got to set it up you've got to book acts you've got to work out again it takes years to really properly establish a night so people on twitter go yeah well you know that some clubs will fold but then other people will come in and take them over i'm not sure that's true because it's not like there's a few venues that are purpose-built for comedy but not not that many other things will happen or they'll get repurposed into something else which i think i read something that there may be they're going to protect venues from being redeveloped which would be good but yeah so the problem i think is the major problem uh not that it isn't a problem to suddenly have no money as a comedian um is that when they come back there'll be far fewer clubs

and the little clubs will go first. And those are the clubs which, A, those long-serving comedians are headlining, but also where newer comedians are coming through. And it takes, as I say, I really think it takes five years to become a good comedian. It's very rare you find a comedian who's progressing after one or two years. Even the comedians you're seeing on TV now have generally been working

about 10 or 15 years than the newer ones. And if they've lost that ability to just go and try stuff out, and if I'm writing a stand-up show, I just go to little clubs and batter it out until it turns into a show, and that's how you create a show. And so even if you're touring bigger venues,

and we don't know if the bigger venues will be there, obviously the venues are going to want to be selling tickets when they come back, so they'll prefer to book the bigger acts, I think, than the smaller acts. So I just think there's this danger that we lose a generation of comedians and also, well, maybe two generations of comedians, the comedians who have been going for a long time

and can't do anything else and then have to just leave it behind. And the new people coming through who, you know, it would be so frustrating if you've been working for five years. Lauren Patson, who I had on my podcast recently, you know, she's been working about five, six years, just got to the point where she started doing podcasts and a bit of radio and it's breaking through. And then now she's back working in the supermarket

with her mum because there's nothing else to do. And, you know, in a year's time, will she come back? Will there be venues for her to perform in? I know it's not the only profession this is going to happen to but i just think it would be devastating to lose stand-up i think it's the most important sort of comedy and it leads to so much else all the people you see on tv pretty much all have worked up their way through the clubs netflix i know i've put in 500 000 pounds for artists so

500 people in the arts are going to get £1,000 to help them through the next few months, which is great, but it's not that big a deal. That's very generous of Netflix because they don't have much money at all. They need to count every penny. But you know, Netflix should realise,

the BBC should realise, Sky should realise, all these people they've got, all these people who are making them large amounts of money, uh, and helping them get to these billion pound businesses came up that way. So if we lose that, if we lose that ladder and if we lose that, you know,

that it's a crucible of, you know, of imagination. It is. And it's a special experience as well, just to be in a room with other people like that. I talked to Holly Walsh in this episode about that, that the special consideration that you give to a person if they're saying something right in front of you live on stage as opposed to seeing it printed or seeing it on social media or hearing

it on a podcast it's a different thing if you're remote somehow and if you're actually in the room with someone that's a really unique thing anyway what what should we be encouraging people to do i know you're you're not the oracle of uh funding schemes but what do you reckon well i think they've set up this this website save live comedy.co.uk and there's an open letter to sign there i'm not sure if it's just for comedians or for everyone but i think people are going to sign it uh And I think that will just go to the government. I think the government needs to provide some support and it's incredibly difficult. And whether that money will filter down to the clubs that need it, I don't know. But I think that will help. Early on, I was involved with the heckle the virus thing on justgiving.com. I think that's still open. I'm not sure.

I know they were winding it down. They kept it going till june but i'm sure if more money goes into that next up comedy who have been incredible uh organizing that we'll make sure it goes to the right people and that's basically a fund to tide over working comedians who aren't gigging yeah so yeah there's that i think just look out for if you have a favorite comedy venue follow them on social media see what they're. If they're running shows, please watch them. If they're doing live stream shows, please donate to them to keep them going. See what you can do with that. You know, there's many good clubs that are.

Excess Malarkey, I know the Bill Murray in the Angel, I know has kind of done a Patreon. Clubs like The Stand, which are excellent clubs, which I'm sure will survive anyway, but they've been doing brilliant stream shows. on um clubs like the stand which are excellent clubs which i'm sure will survive anyway but they've been doing brilliant stream shows so if you see comedians doing shows try and support them and if you can try and support them financially it's going to be very it's going to be very difficult year i think for comedy anyway and i hope we'll get through it and hopefully comedians

will start to look at other ways to make a living as well and i think the online stuff is great as well and i think it can they can go hand in hand but i hope that comedy clubs will realize hey why don't we live stream our regular nights anyway and then people around the world can pay five pounds to watch them and that's a whole new revenue stream if a thousand people around the world watch watch my comedy night because they can't get there you know so that's great i think it's been great for things like parents like myself you know i never get to go out so i can watch comedy at home so there is this audience out there if you're part of that audience and you can afford to pay some money and it doesn't have to be huge amounts of money you know a quid or two here

and there will really yeah help all these things out uh and again if you can't afford to pay then what is nice i think is most comedians are working on the basis that they're putting stuff out for free i know you and i always have put stuff out for free. And you can enjoy it if you can't afford it, which I think should be part of the ethos of comedy as well. But it's all the self-employed industries, all the industries which are struggling through this. We've all made a sacrifice in order to protect the lives of the population.

And it seems to me, the government should be the ones that really are picking up the tab and the, and the big businesses should be picking up the tab. So I think just everything you do to encourage the government, everything you do to encourage Netflix or anyone, you know, this should be a year where everyone goes, look,

we're not going to make a profit this year. Let's come on. Netflix from making a profit. I just want to make it clear. I'm not, if Netflix want to do a show with me, then I, I want to retract any kind of Saki comments that I may have made,

but at the moment, um, come on, cough up. Yeah. And it's not just that there's a Netflix have at least done something, which, so that's,

you know, I think, you know, it's, they're doing something and a half a million pounds is not nothing. So, uh, I think you have to be grateful for whatever come,

whatever's being done. But I think we just need to pressurize people and for everyone, obviously for the NHS, we don't just want to clap the NHS. We wanted to make sure the NHS are properly rewarded for everything they've done for us, but all the other people as well, everyone's sacrificing in order to help each other.

And, you know, i don't think that people should be punished for that by losing their livelihoods really it's always i agree yes good thank good i thought that was controversial thanks man it's nice to talk to you richard and you i've just got your audio book i haven't listened to it yet but i'm looking forward to listening to your audio book. Oh, it's a roller coaster of joy and tears and feelings. I can't wait. Cheers, man. See you soon. Bye.

There we are. Thanks very much to Richard Herring. Links in the description of this podcast should you wish to support the live stand-up comedy community in some way. Richard mentioned my audio book there, Ramble Book. Very obligingly, I didn't ask him to do that. It just happened spontaneously. It was an amazing and very moving moment.

That, of course, is still available. Audible, you could have a free trial on Audible and download Ramble Book for nothing. Or, well, it's available other places as well. Apple Audiobooks. Wherever audiobooks are sold, I believe. But if you would rather read the book with your eyes, you'll have to wait until the 3rd of September when the hardback comes out. But you can pre-order a signed copy now. It took me a long, a long time. I had to sign 2000 because I wanted to make my name, when I signed it, somewhat legible.

Sometimes you get those signed copies of books and it's like someone, their pen just slipped or something, you know. So I didn't want it to be like that you get a very nice legible adam i think there's a kiss on pretty much all of them and there's a great deal of love in every single one link in the description of the podcast all right that's it for this extended waffle fest thank you very much indeed to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for production support as ever and to Matt Lamont for his brilliant edit whizbottery thanks Seamus. Thanks, Richard Herring. Thanks, Holly Walsh. Thank you, Podcats, once again, for all your support and kind wishes,

which really cheered me up in those moments when you feel bleak, you know. So come on, let's have a virtual COVID hug. Hey, come over here. Hey! Thanks, mate. Now back off. Two metres.

Get that mask on. And until next time, we share the same sound space. Go carefully. And remember, I do love you. Bye! Thank you. Bye. ស្រូវានប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប� Thank you.