THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.133 - RAVEN SMITH

Episode Date: October 9, 2020

Adam talks with British writer, columnist and creative director Raven Smith about parents and surrogacy, erasing history in the wake of the George Floyd killing, dangerous biscuits, Charlie Bucket's grandparents, and what most people would do if they were told they had 6 minutes to live. This conversation was recorded remotely on June 18th, 2020.ADDENDUM RE. SURROGACYFor a more detailed and informative account of the process of becoming a parent via surrogacy you'll find a link to an article by Anna Buxton (no relation) HEREThanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production support and to Matt Lamont for conversation editing. Podcast artwork by Helen Green https://helengreenillustration.com/RELATED LINKSRAVEN SMITH'S TRIVIAL PURSUITS (2020, WATERSTONES)HOLLYWOOD CRIME SCENE PODCAST (ON ACAST)JIM CARREY RECOUNTS BEING IN HAWAII DURING FALSE MISSILE ALERT (HOLLYWOOD REPORTER, July 2020)WOW PRESENTS PLUS (SIGN UP TO STREAM THE ADAM AND JOE SHOW ETC.) NEW ADAM BUXTON WEBSITEADAM BUXTON'S RAMBLE BOOK (HARDBACK) (WATERSTONES)ADAM BUXTON'S RAMBLE BOOK (AUDIOBOOK) (2020, AUDIBLE) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human folk Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan. Rosie's getting very particular these days. If the conditions aren't exactly right,

or if it looks as if I'm taking a route that she doesn't favour, then she stands still and stares at me with her dog eyes and says, Can I just ask exactly which way we're going to be going and for how long? Yeah, I'm doing your voice. I love you, dog. Even though your breath smells like a stinky seaport from ancient times. I don't want to go up that route. I don't like that route. It's boring.

I prefer the hill. All right, we'll do the hill. Yes, yes, I love the hill. Let's do the hill. Okay, we'll do the hill. All right, we'll do the hill. Yes, yes, I love the hill. Let's do the hill. Okay, we'll do the hill. It's very wet today, though, Rose. I don't mind. I love the hill, even when it's wet.

Watch out for the cows. I will be careful for cows. Anyway, hey, how are you doing, podcats? Adam Buxton here. Me and Rosie just managed to catch a break in the rain, so we're nipping out to do our intros and outros. Anyway, look. Oh, wow. It's blowing up a hurricane here. Let me tell you a little bit about my guest for podcast number 133. He is the British writer, Vogue columnist, and former creative director of the digital video channel Nowness, Raven Smith. Really enjoyed

having a rambly chat with Raven earlier this year. His first book, Raven Smith's Trivial Pursuits, was published and quickly became a bestseller. It's a collection of humorous essays about various aspects of modern life in the affluent West that, according to Raven, examine the world around us and somehow interrogate our humanity at this exact point in history on and offline. at this exact point in history, on and offline. We talked remotely during the lockdown in June, just a few weeks after my ma died. So we talked a bit about parents and we also spoke about the cultural climate in the wake of the George Floyd killing and the first wave of Black Lives Matter protests

and how Raven views his position in society as the child of a black father and a white mother. Speaking of parents, Raven and his husband are in the early stages of trying to have a child of their own with a surrogate mother, and we talked a little bit about the moral and logistical complications associated with that process. Things get a bit more trivial in the second half of our conversation where we talked about a certain biscuit spread

and ice cream bar brand that I had mentioned in an email to Raven before our conversation, telling him that it had threatened to become a problem during the lockdown. We also discussed our concerns about Charlie Bucket's grandparents in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and what most people would do if they had just six minutes to live. But we started by discussing microphones, giving me the opportunity to moan once again about Louis Theroux's podcast. opportunity to moan once again about louis theroux's podcast and i justify that to myself because although it gives me great sadness to say it's punching up back at the end with news of a forthcoming live streamed podcast on the 21st of October, plus a podcast recommendation. But right now, with Raven Smith,

here we go. What's it doing? Oh, you dick. Oh, it is recording. I thought it hadn't been recording. I'm glad it was. Here we go. Rumble Chat, that's a fun Rumble Chat. I'm glad it was. Oh, there it is it is hey that looks nice i did a podcast with pandora sykes oh yeah she hasn't collected the microphone yet so

here we are yeah foolish there you go perfect i did offer it but now she's got one over on you and she can just summon you as a podcast guest anytime she wishes. Yeah, I just have to be prepared to go live at any moment. Yeah. Throughout my day. That's right. I did that with a few of my friends at the beginning of lockdown. I bought microphones for Joe Cornish and Louis Theroux and my friend Tash Dimitriou, all of whom I knew are sort of reliable chat companions that I would probably be calling on during the lockdown.

So I thought if I got them a good mic each as a present they can keep it and then i won't feel bad about just emailing them the day before and saying look i how about let's do a podcast tomorrow and they just have to go yes and they have to deliver the good have you done it yeah and it works it works a treat but then here's the thing louis theroux went off and started doing his own shitting podcast with the mic that I gave him. And he teased me about it on my podcast. And I had to laugh. But inside I was seething. And he said, I'm going to piss on your leg, on your patch, out of the microphone that you bought me and it's bad and we were laughing

and laughing but deep down i was thinking that's exactly what you're going to be doing just got to plot your revenge yeah and his podcast is number one have you listened to louis podcast i've listened to louis podcast the lenny henry one was good they were all good unfortunately he's he's very good at it you know he's funny and he's intelligent he asks interesting questions and he keeps the chat going i mean that's more or less all you need to do however no jingles no doesn't talk to a dog real or imaginary it's lacking yeah give me some negative stuff it It's full of holes. It's like a sieve. That's all right. I kind of dip in and out.

Like when I was commuting before lockdown, I was listening to a lot more. But now I just need like a beat to walk to. Right. On my same walk every day. So what do you use as a beat then? Well, at the moment it's Lady Gaga, but I feel like I should say something better. That's okay. What classic Gaga? No, the new one, Chromatica.

Just keeps me surging forward, which is all you really need. Were you happy with Gaga's rendition of... What did she sing in the lockdown concert not that long ago? I didn't watch the lockdown concert. Smile when your heart is breaking. Smile even though it's aching. And I was sort of thinking, this is bringing me down. I want something cheery. There's something about her.

She just bridges that thing. Like Chromatica is so like future Tokyo world. And then she's also like, I would also like to be an Oscar lady in a beautiful dress. So smiles kind of like, she doesn't pick a side. She's not polarised like the rest of us. I'm quite into smile, but I only really watched Elton John repeatedly.

I just couldn't get enough of it. I'll never be done watching that whenever i feel sad that made me smile yeah man abso-fucking-lutely here's a thing that i sometimes think about saying to guests but i always forget to say it you shouldn't feel as if you need to be polite or indeed respectful you know if you're that way inclined i'm sure i think most of the people I speak to, you know, they're nice people. So if I say something weird or they just don't understand what I'm on about, they don't necessarily call me on it. But you really should. And, you know, I don't mind.

It'll be fun. But don't feel you have to. No. I don't have any kind of secrets. OK, cool. Or anything that's like off hand, off grid, off... Off menu, off topic. Off menu.

Maybe. Yeah, same here. Exactly. I feel as if you can ask me anything if you want to, and I'll make a fist of trying to answer it, or I'll just lie. Okay. Like if someone asks you quite a personal question in a public forum like this for example

what's your tactic how do you deal with it if you don't really want to be 100% honest are you just going to make a joke out of it or will you ever lie it's never really happened that i've been asked a question that's so sticky and awkward that i feel like I have to wiggle out of it but I always get scared that I get quite serious and people is that really what people want to hear from me hardcore chat but I don't think I lie I've got this whole thing about not lying it's like quite a chip on my shoulder about it it gets me in more trouble than gets me out of trouble right can you remember the last time you got in trouble because you don't lie every day with my husband oh really and i'm like i think this and he's like okay

yeah thank you because i always feel in a relationship especially after a few years how long have you been together 10 years 10 years congratulations and you've been married for five right yeah coming yeah something like that four or five so i think at that point you do you know as long as things are mainly going okay you do feel as if you want to be able to say everything to that person you know because apart from anything else that's one of the rewards you get is just feeling incredibly close to them and having a weird bond that most people who've only known each other a few months can never really have and they might fool themselves into thinking that they do but they don't really

you have to earn that after years and years of struggling through all kinds of shit and being bored and pissed off with each other and all sorts of stuff so sometimes i do get tempted to say an honest thing when it's not necessarily that nice. Because I hope that the other person is going, the other person, I'm talking about my wife. I hope that she will know that underneath all of that is the bedrock of love that I have for her. Yeah, care. Yeah.

It's difficult, isn't it? Because your relationship should be honest and bare and like there's a brutality to that. But it's also about looking after the other person, which sometimes means holding back a touch. It does, doesn't it? Yeah. Sometimes I forget. Wow. We got very deep, very fast. We're in.

But we can go deeper, I feel. Yeah. I nearly started talking about my mum already. very fast. We're in. But we can go deeper, I feel. Yeah, I nearly started talking about my mum already. Well, I was going to ask. I was going to ask because all that stuff is on my mind. My mum died recently and I've been kind of really knocked out by it

and feel very strange and kind of mad. And obviously the lockdown doesn't help. And I know it just feels everything seems upside down. But I'm interested to talk to you about your parents. And are they both still around your folks? Yeah. So my mum is not that far, like 50 miles away. And my dad lives around the corner.

But I don't really we don't have a very close relationship. My birth dad, my actual dad, my dad. But me and my stepdad are really close. Uh-huh. I saw a picture of you and your father in my dad your dad dad in a bath yeah that you posted on your instagram page and it was taken i guess what last week no yeah yesterday it's from yesterday it's live it was you instagram live it was you as a toddler it's a very sweet picture when was that taken then i would say like 80 1986

so 30 odd years ago has he got a load of dreadlocks under that hat yeah i remember really vividly him letting me like going to visit him with my mom and him saying come into the other room and showing me his dreads privately he He's on good form. You know, he always seems very relaxed and chill. Yeah. He's a great guy. He wasn't around as much as I would have liked, but he's a great guy. And do you ever talk to your mum about him?

Not really. Did she sort of explain to you, like, what happened and why he isn't around? Or did you never go into that? Not really. We left London when i was three so and i saw quite a she used to bring me up every weekend so we still have a sort of ongoing relationship throughout that time i think he's just the kind of person that i have to go to him so it's kind of on my terms i don't think he would ever call me up and say shall i come over

it's a very weird thing because i think the thing is with, I think everyone wants to have a very close relationship with both of their parents. But I don't, I'm not close with my dad. But we get on really, really well when we hang out, which is very seldom. I texted him yesterday for Father's Day and he left me on read. So we will hear back from him soon enough. You've already described a better relationship with your father than most people have, I would think. OK, OK, good. It's weird. I wonder what my how I would be if he had been like a much bigger presence in my childhood.

Right. But I was definitely I wrote about it before. I definitely like minimized myself in his his presence much less the Raven Smith that I was with my mum just quieter, less exuberant less gay in a way, just a smaller version of myself, so I think there's probably something to unpack in that at some point

but I feel very confident in terms of who I am now and my identity so he's part of that but it's always been i don't know weird did you sit down with him when you knew you were gay and say listen dad this is the deal i've never officially come out to my dad which makes it sound like i've never come out to him but he texts me once and he's like how's it going and i was like i've just split with my boyfriend i'm having a tough time but i'm okay so he sort of he knows he's like, how's it going? And I was like, I've just split with my boyfriend. I'm having a tough time, but I'm okay.

So he sort of, he knows. Yeah, but you know, that's exactly, it's a weird thing for me to ask, I suppose, because it's not as if I ever explained the details of my sexual adventures to my dad. He sort of knew I had a girlfriend from time to time. But when I was heartbroken and when i got dumped or whatever i would never talk to my parents about any of that i mean my mom and i are really close i was an only child and she's a single parent so what we were talking about before about that kind of like someone else knowing your feelings that happens quite naturally when it's like a mother and son and it's just the

two of you right a lot of sort of telepathic communication and that is something that i have to realize is not what it's like with other people yeah i have you have to externalize basically which i didn't have to do in my childhood in the same way yeah yeah so you're quite close to your ma now yeah yeah i speak to her like most days yeah she's good i think that i mean like most people in their 60s, 70s They're just worried about getting corona Yes All the time

If I'm going out then I wear a mask With my friends and family I wear a mask Having sexual intercourse I wear a mask And when I'm on my own I also wear a mask I have to wear a mask cos I am toxic Terrible things are spilling out of me I also wear a mask. I have to wear a mask because I am toxic. Terrible things are spilling out of me. I also wear a mask because you are toxic. A tiny bit of you could be deadly.

Mask, mask, put on your mask. If you care about the human race. Mask, mask, always wear a mask. Cover up your frightening deadly face. I'm enjoying your book. Congratulations. Is that your first book? Yeah.

Yeah, you and me. We've written books. We're book guys.. Is that your first book? Yeah. Yeah, you and me. We've written books. We're book guys. How do you feel about it? Because I feel very... The whole process of writing it, I was like, I can't believe I'm trying to write a book. And then it was coming out and I was like,

I can't believe I'm putting a book out. And now I just can't believe I've written a book. I just can't get my head around it. When did you start writing yours? Like last January. I left my whole life behind me. I moved to Berlin for a month and wrote the first half. That's what I should have done.

Yeah, I mean, it's a luxury. Wait, you wrote half the book in one month? Yeah. Holy shit. That's impressive, mate. Is it? Yes. I started trying to write my book in 2016.

OK. Yours is probably a much higher word count, but we won't get into that. Yeah, let's not battle word counts. I really don't think there's that much in it anyway on that score. But I think you definitely played it right. Also, you're younger than I am, I believe. Well, yeah. How old are you, if you don't mind me asking? I've been 32 a few times, but yeah, 30s. Okay. So, yeah, when I was in my 30ss I don't know what I was doing but I wasn't writing any books and it really took me a ridiculously long time and now now I feel a bit bereft because

it's been my project for the last four well certainly for the last two years I mean I say I started working on it in 2016 I did yeah but I wasn't doing that much for a couple of years. It only really started in earnest towards the end of 2018 and a lot of last year. But it feels good to have it out, though now I do feel like, what do I do now? You're better known than me, so you already have people reflecting back to you, things you've said in the past, whereas I'm completely new to it and I find it very weird. Writing is such a private thing. Yeah. So to have other people in your head with you of what you've written is just the most bizarre, weirdest, new experience.

You've written newspaper columns before though, right? Yeah, I had a Vogue column online and then I was working with The Times and now I'm at Vogue in the US. But there's a level at which when you're commissioned to write a piece for somebody, it's really clear what your objective is in the piece and how many words it's going to be. And there was something about writing the book that was so like sprawling. What am I thinking today and why am I thinking it and trying to unpick that all the time. It's called Trivial Pursuits because it's all about the small stuff.

And I was trying to catch all of the small stuff that was happening every day. You know, it was those very early stages were like this intense diary of every single thing. I had this app on my phone and I was just recording thoughts. Like you've read enough of the book to know that it's like got a stream of consciousness to a degree, but I don't necessarily give you 700 words on the same thing in a chapter. So I think to have people in that stream of consciousness is quite scary. Yeah. And I mean, it's like the job of a stand up comedian, though. Have you ever done stand up? No, I don't think I could. I think I find it too scary.

I think you probably could. I don't see that there. I think I'd find it too scary. I think you probably could. I don't see that there's that much different. I mean, there's all different flavours of stand-ups, you know. There are some stand-ups who are more or less just reading out things that they've written. You know, there's other stand-ups who are responding to what's happening in the room and chatting with the audience and that's where their comedy comes from. But a lot of stand-ups just write and they craft their material and they hone their sentences and then they learn it and then they go out and they

sort of recite it that's a legitimate way you know yeah did you read your audio book as well yes i did yes i had a lot of notes at the end of my audio reading it's like there's a lot of stuff that will not make it into that just needs work. I wish I'd spent less time procrastinating when I was writing it and more time editing, editing, editing, editing. I think it's good though to have done it. I think there's so much to be said for just getting it out and moving on to the next thing. You will just sort of enjoy it probably and improve so much faster. But my whole way of doing everything is just agonizingly slow so that was the only way i could do it but i also realized because i i thought like

i know raven i know that name and sure enough i found an email from you from way back in 2014 or something and i think you were where were you you were at nounus or somewhere i was at now this what were you doing at now i'm really scared what does the email say um i was commission director so i was deciding good stories to tell and then trying to make them happen basically right it's a video content site so like short film okay what does my email say what does it say it was i mean it was totally innocuous i think it was a thing that you were kindly trying to get me involved with a little bit and i just think that i wasn't around or something but i came to yourself but i did come to yourself by southwest talk yeah so i was in South by Southwest. Was it that year, 2014? Yeah, I think it was.

And I went out there, I got an invite and I thought, oh yeah, I've got an invite to South by Southwest. I've cracked America. So I went out there and then ended up in this weird conference room. I wasn't in one of those groovy bars down the main drag, you know, with people beatboxing outside and everybody intermingling and reading poetry and stuff like that. I thought that's what it was going to be like. But instead, I had to go and check in and register in this giant soulless conference building. It's huge, isn't it? Yeah. And there's floor after floor after floor of all these things all

these people doing their talks and you know you're aware that going on at the same time as your thing is lena dunham giving her keynote speech or whatever whoever it happened to be that year but you came along to my show so thanks man i was there you're welcome what were you doing there were you just watching stuff yeah so it's quite because it's the film festival you they do a series of shorts that are really good so i was there basically finding young new interesting voices who were making videos young directors did we meet after the show no i think i went to see lena dunham straight away that was when she was unproblematic wasn't it um that was before people started calling her

problematic yeah i mean you know i just lobbed that out there is she problematic yeah she's divisive but i think that's part of i've lost track it's the backlash effect you know no one likes hearsay anymore it's just you know things eventually turn hearsay are very problematic yeah they always were but i mean who isn't problematic this is the thing like surely everybody is problematic you know from the absolute most woke person you can think of i mean my most woke person is always um aoc you know, Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez. Oh, yeah. I mean, we've yet to see any problems occurring with her. I think for me, everything and everyone is problematic. It's virtually impossible to live a life that isn't somehow

shitting on someone else somewhere. And I think there's a level at which we are all trying to figure out how to be good you're on social media right yeah where are you most active twitter instagram instagram mainly so yeah is instagram still everyone being nice to each other or is it now become a little bit more barbed it's a bit more barbed for sure but i mean we've lived through a few weeks of like aggressive call outs in terms of whatever you have done in the past is coming back to haunt you whoever you are right and i think people are just wise to the insincerity that can be at play it's really obvious when you're looking at like an influencer

in a bikini what the mechanic is of that you we're all kind of complicit in understanding that they're trying to sell you something but i think there's a level at which now the black squares for black lives matter just i've said before that it was almost a pandora's box it was a powerful thing that happened like going on my instagram and the whole stream being black squares i felt it was very powerful and i but i think we've all realized the kind of projection of goodness isn't going to move us out of some of these systems that are more tricky yeah that's right and also just i get the sense that like i think i said to you in my message i'd been going through some of my old stuff and it's been a similar experience now post the killing of george floyd and all the

subsequent protests and the black lives matter movement becoming much more prominent etc which as we speak has been happening in the last few weeks and it's always very chastening you look back at stuff that you've done and said and you think well i i definitely wouldn't say those things now or i would think harder before i did or you realize like shit that could easily be misunderstood but it's confusing to think about to what extent you have to kind of redact all that stuff you know do you leave that kind of thing on your youtube channel for example if you've got a video that is not like horribly offensive i hope but there's bits in it maybe a little bit of language or terminology that you wouldn't use now you know what i mean

i think you're fine i just have to you know john cleese and this whole don't mention the war episode of faulty towers which obviously used the most hideous racist language within that episode what i don't want to see the world do is try and erase the history of where we've come from you know all of this talk about pulling down the statues i agree that we might not want all of these particular behaviors and ways of being put on a pedestal but I do think that they are part of our history and what we can't do is erase the past I think everyone recognises that you know Britain was built on colonialism we can't undo that but as long as everyone is understands that then we can move forward in a

way that is more progressive but right now there's this massive focus on people not really realizing the systems that are at play and thinking of racism specifically as active hate and i think that's quite easy to manage the active hate thing and challenging that and changing that is quite straightforward but more systematic issues of diversity and people being given the chances to be the best that they can be that's the much longer more difficult it's much harder to understand the quickest way to fix that yes it's not a clear fix for that i mean to what extent does it in what ways does it impact your life for example i noticed there was a reference in the beginning of your book you're talking about all the things that you're self-conscious about when you're starting to write a book and i had

exactly the same experience when i started mine you start imagining all the reviews you're gonna get you start imagining all the criticism you're going to get. And basically, it's your own insecurities kind of being reflected back at you via these imagined reviews and all these things. And you dig down into them very entertainingly. But one of the things I noticed that you said as well was like, oh, am I just taking a diversity quotient here? Oh, yeah. So is that how it sort of manifests for you anxiety about racial issues it will all my racial identity is always dual so there's my white mum who brought me up and I've lived a very kind of a life that she has as her kid and it's again with this relationship with my dad that's really tied up with my blackness and who what that means for me and i think i would say that i've privileged like

my worry was always going to be that i've been given chances as part of something that isn't just my own merit for sure but i i don't know i don't think that's exclusive to me being mixed race i do think there's a level at which we all we all feel impostery to a certain degree even if we're very capable yes mate i mean it's so hard for me to kind of imagine what it's like as a white person because i kind of dismiss people behaving badly towards me or bits of bad luck as just like okay whatever but when you know that you live in a world where people definitely are prejudiced and are racist, then it must be so difficult to process those things without having some kind of racial filter, you know, or racial perspective on them. And just think, wait, is that did that person say that because I'm black or what's going on here?

Absolutely. It's the same as me. It's not the same as me being gay, but I can never channel. I can't separate the strands of who I am. I can't separate them. It's always just Raven Smith in this situation. So, of course, there'll be racial stuff that's coming at me, but there'll also be not homophobia, but like an awareness of me being gay coming at me as well. And the privileges that I have growing up in essentially a white family with my mum.

Like I have to really take on board my own privileges within that too. And this like constant fear of being a difficult black person and not wanting to be that makes you sometimes less likely to call out difficult stuff. Because everyone wants an easy life, really. It's much easier for all of us to pretend that if it's not an issue for me, it's not an issue for anyone. And I think from what I have to take responsibility for is my privileges within the system that's fucked. that's fucked basically a really skewed by a system that doesn't give equal space for people of color and how do i make sure that you know i talk about myself as being like part way up a ladder of successful capitalism how do i you know is the capitalist system, is me scaling that a success as a black person?

Or is it negating the other people that aren't able to scale that ladder so easily? So I think for me, in terms of what I want to do next, it's essentially about getting other people up at this level too. I think there's a lot of talk about what black people will talk about if they don't have to talk about race. And I'm a prime example of that. know the one i talk about so many different things in my book and i think you can't be what you can't see and as a visible gay black man living a predominantly happy life i think that's important for people to see i get worried that i reverse engineer being a show-off which i think is quite a common thing if you've ever seen two actors talking it's like you start to reverse engineer well it's very important for me to be having a good time on

Instagram but there is a level at which that's true as well yeah right but I do worry all the time about my legacy in this kind of constant chatter and din like what are you building that lasts a long time the book really helped that fear yeah but i worry about it all the time do you i feel as if i hope as if i might be getting to the point where i'm cutting myself loose from those kinds of worries especially nowadays when society is re-evaluating their you know opinions of so many things so quickly you you sort of think, God, you're onto a losing wicket. I don't play cricket, so I don't know what I'm talking about. You're bowling a bad googly if you think that you can construct a watertight legacy, you know,

that's going to last any length of time. At some point, it'll crumble. It'll be forgotten about. It'll be reassessed it'll be cancelled i don't know what you know yeah it's so important you can't really start considering what people are going to do with it after you're gone and do you plan for the future are you thinking about like where am i going to be in 10 years no to be very honest nearly all of my aspirations are about having a family.

And that is the one thing that just for two men takes so long and so much money that it's just forever. Or for the last four years has been on the back burner because I would say most parents will say they you never have enough time or enough money or enough space to have a kid. But we actually have to put money in straight away when we decide to do it. So it's a bit of a, that is my like core aspiration. It's never going to be about new stuff and better clothes and better shoes, even though I love those things. So when I think about 10 years from now, it's always about children. But in terms of career, I've been very good at assessing what's in front of me and making smart decisions and that sounds kind of you know oblique but an editor came to me and said I love your columns have you thought about writing a book

and I was like no there's no way I can write a book and she explained to me that it's just like a long essay and I was like I could do that I can write a longer essay I can write a few hundred essays that's fine so I think there's a level at which I am thinking about book two and that's exciting but I'm not that far forward in my thinking in terms of my career and where I can be and what I can be I'm more interested in like when we have a kid you know i can't go to berlin for two months of the year to write books unless you take the kid yeah i don't know you know obviously my life will change massively how does it work then have you begun the process of applying or i don't know i've got no conception surrogacy in the uk is about four years on a waiting list and we've been there like three and it just takes I mean it's just a huge undertaking for the woman it's massive and there's no kind of

sidestepping that it's huge I don't know if I would be able to do it as a benevolent act so there's a level at which we're sort of at the mercy of the systems that are already in place. I mean, there's loads of legal stuff that is just frustrating and stupid and, you know, red tape that seems unnecessary. Yeah. Like there's a whole birth certificate thing that if your surrogate mother is married, the husband and her are the parents on the birth certificate. Oh, really?

Regardless of whether or not it's someone else's it's my sister-in-law's egg and my sperm like it's just so and if you go to america there's a lot more protection but it costs you know 150 000 pounds so that so there's loads of stuff going on all the time with that wow i mean you're just yeah launching yourself into a moral minefield yeah but i was assuming parenthood is like that anyway like all of these aspirations you have for it and then they're just you're just tired that's how i felt about when we buy my first flat and thinking when i get there i'm gonna have sex on the floor with some pizza boxes and i just was like exhausted for about two months just slept

like you know most things when you get there you just feel very tired but you did have sex on the floor with some pizza boxes though right oh when we moved to the house yeah yeah yeah the second time of course yeah yeah all we do is have sex that's it and then do you know who your surrogate mother will be no so they there's an agency who's going to find this lady but it's such you have to you know even just on your like tinder application form for surrogacy you have to say a lot of stuff about like embryos and you know down syndrome and all of these things that seem very far away from where I am now. I mean, it's totally abstract. And also, I think of parenthood as the most profound and mundane

thing that you can do. It's like, I worry about what kind of dad I'll be, but I keep thinking, oh, my mum did all right. Do you know what I mean? I like the theory of it. I think the practice would just be tough. Yeah, yeah yeah and will there be a point though with the mum sorry if i'm fixating on this one aspect of it will there be a point at which it's like britain's got talent and you've got a selection of surrogate mums and you go oh yeah she's very good no no there aren't that many surrogate mums i mean that there's a not what's the opposite of a surplus a drought so a um a dearth surf it a dearth a dearth because it's such a huge huge thing it's a huge huge ask you know so i know it really is i mean it's hard to get your head around and is it it must be something that happens fairly regularly that the mums just change their mind or are presumably it's

all a contract thing do you sign a waiver saying i'm not going to change my mind and even if i do tough luck but if someone did change their mind how could you it would be so hard to say sorry you signed the form we're going to take the kid protection in the uk for both parties is quite weak right um legally speaking it's a benevolent system. So you are reliant on the kindness. Yes. Bizarrely, up to six months after the baby's born, the birth mother can just change her mind.

Okay. She can change her mind. And that just seems completely wild. And in the States, you know, I can be like, you can only eat kale for nine months like there's a lot more it's a business transaction so you just have the same contracts that you would in any other business it's much more right you can make stipulations about how the mother behaves while she's pregnant you basically that that first initial contract before you do any kind of ivf process or insemination you stipulate your desires

and they i heard about this i mean there's horror stories everywhere but i heard about this couple and the woman tested positive for marijuana just before she was about to have their baby and the couple were like we don't care it's california and the cell agency agency were like she's terminated the contract it's null and void we're not working with her so there's a level at which it's very much like business it's a real business people pay a lot of money for the security of that system right and i don't know if that's better or worse in here you know can you say i want you to get really into drum and bass and only listen to that for nine months you can say i want you to play ronnie size into the womb with headphones every night and then that's it wow well i listen man i

hope that goes well that's exciting we'll get there you know families just come in all come to you in different ways yeah yeah so i wonder what kind of father you will be because i always i didn't think hard enough about the whole fatherhood thing at all i just thought well my wife seems really keen i'll just go along with what she wants and she can do all the hard work and i'll just be i'll be like the guy's friend uh and i'll just watch movies with them and get them into music and be fun yeah and you can do that for a while but then it becomes really difficult and then once they're teenagers it's quite a a shocking wake-up call because i think however you've been with them as a parent by the time they become

teenage their whole raison d'etre is just to do the opposite of what you want and to define themselves in opposition to you. I think it's, you know, it's they've kind of got to do it, really. But it's so shocking as a parent to just think, but look, I'm nice. I'm fun. And I was fun. And, you know, I didn't beat you up once. and I've you know I didn't beat you up once and uh I I told you all your Minecraft stuff was brilliant when it was really pretty shit and impractical and um you know what more am I supposed to do but they're acting like they totally hate you it's really weird yeah I was

like that with my mum and she's bro yeah I was like enough this is not cool you're not cool how long did that go on for oh I don't know a good few years and we were really close because it was just the two of us so I think she took it I always think it was hard at the time but I remember telling her she wasn't cool and she was like you're not meant to think I'm cool that's not really how this works and I was like, oh, interesting. Oh, she's right. How are you? Yeah. But we never fully fell out. Not really. I remember having a party when she went away one weekend and getting in a lot of trouble.

She cut this plug off the TV, which was like my whole life at that point. Didn't do anything apart from watch TV. She cut the plug off the TV. Yes. She was like, goodbye, your entire the tv yes she was like goodbye your entire life and i was like oh oh god yeah extreme she knew what she was doing that's good you know you could have learned how to rewire the plug but then that would have been kind of an achievement yeah but it wasn't i wasn't allowed to rewire the plug okay i would have been in a lot

of trouble if the plug had gone back on that wouldn't that wouldn't have been a punishment she knew what she was doing it wasn't like you're grounded she was like the actual plugs coming off the telly like pretty hardcore good for her i mean you know i think discipline is like obviously when you've got like a son who just wants to drink vodka in the park i mean she must have just been like one idiot oh man the other night my eldest son is 17 he's gonna be 18 quite soon actually holy goodness i didn't even think about that oh man and like i think we're we're not too strict i't think, as a family, me and his mum, but it's certainly never been OK to sort of swear, I don't think. We'd never get really upset about swearing, I don't think.

Yeah. But we've never sworn in front of them and used bad language, even though they know, you know, they've seen me do stuff on TV or they've seen my videos where I'm using a lot of bad language even though they know you know they've seen me do stuff on tv or they've seen my videos where i'm using a lot of bad language so they they know that i say those things but the other night we've got a fly problem at the moment every you know as soon as the weather gets warm and if there's a bit of rain and just this time of year it's a disaster area and we you know we're surrounded by fields and there's cows in the fields and lots of shit everywhere and in the house and anyway so this so there's flies everywhere and my son just is obsessive about the flies he's got one of those um bug whacker things that looks like a tennis racket yeah and so he goes around with the zapper just obsessively trying to get these guys and and zap them on

the wing especially like if you get them while they're flying it feels particularly spectacular but uh we were just about to sit down and eat and he was over at the sink like swiping at flies and suddenly he goes these cunting flies. Oh, my God. Having that, you know, I'd never heard him say shit before. Yeah. And suddenly it's like, whoa. He went to 100. Yeah.

So, and my wife said, Frank, what are you? And I said, did he just say what I thought he said? And he wasn't really that worried about it. But I said, oh, no, you've got to keep that one for special occasions. That's not for swatching flies. And he's like, OK, right. Sorry, I went too far, didn't I? Oh.

I thought I turned it to flight mode. Is it an alert? No, it's it to flight mode. Sorry about this. Is it an alert? No. No, it's not. It's a wife. Hello? Okay.

Sorry, I'm still recording. Thank you. Okay, bye. Boy, I really screwed this up. I just totally... You're going to get in trouble. I should have cleared all this and put it down in the diary and i just didn't and now i'm gonna pay it'll be it'll be really subtle the way you have to pay yep it won't be a row no no it won't it'll just be low level it'll be a hum it'll be humming yeah oh dear i think she might still be annoyed about the other night we

were watching um news night and kirsty walk was talking to a woman who ran a restaurant and she kept on referring to her as a restaurateur after a while i said, I think Kirsty means to say restaurateur. And my wife said, restaurateur? I was like, yeah, I think that's the word for a person who runs a restaurant. She's like, no, it's a restaurateur. It's like you run a restaurant, you've got a restaurant, then you're a restaurateur. I was like, no, I'm pretty sure it's restaurateur. It doesn't sound right, but that's the word.

She's like, noateur it doesn't sound right but that's the word she's like yeah no it isn't i mean she basically poured a pint of scorn over my assertion that it was restaurateur and she was rolling her eyes and shaking her head and it was it was so glorious because i knew i was right and i just was letting her carry on as long as she possibly could like shaking her head and acting like i'm the stupidest guy in the whole world, which usually I would be like normally I would get that totally wrong. But this was the one occasion when I knew I was right because I have a friend who is a restaurateur. He corrected me a while back and said, actually, it's not restaurateur. And we looked it up and i i mean it took every ounce of self-control for me not to get up and start dancing yeah like tom cruise on the couch

like straight up there i would have been up there tom cruise exactly tom cruise on the couch on oprah or even just yeah tom cruise on the couch on oprah and then segue into tom cruise in risky business take my trousers off sliding around the room in my underpants singing into an imaginary mic jumping in the air and clapping my hands anyway yeah you're going to be paying for that biscuits i am in love with you

I'll dip you in my tea But pull you out before you fall apart I won't abandon you Biscuits, biscuits, mm-hmm, nice Say you love biscuits too Share a bucket with me And then I won't feel piggy all alone Inside the chocolate zone

Biscuits, biscuits, mm-hmm, yes Have you ever heard of the Biscoff ice cream bar? No, but you were talking about the spread. Yes. So when I worked in an office, this Italian guy kept buying the spread and putting it in the communal cupboard. And then everyone got addicted to the spread. The Biscoff spread. Yeah.

Did you have any? Yeah, it's crack. It's the best thing I've ever tasted. I couldn't get enough of it. Like, I can't have it in the house. It's one of those crack snacks that I'm like, I can't have this in the house. Right. Because it will just disappear.

It's the biscotti. You were saying it's like it's been chewed already. Yeah, so I should explain for people who've never encountered the world of Biscoff. Originally, they were little biscuits that I think are sort of designed for having with coffee. They're quite small. They're unusually crunchy. They have a sort of smoky caramel flavor. They're dark brown.

They're very tasty. And it feels as if there's little crystals of joy inside there. crystals of joy inside there and then you can get as in addition to the little biscuits you can get this cookie butter spread which is what you're talking about and then you can also get an ice cream bar and i was introduced to the whole biscoff universe via the ice cream bar that my wife bought one day and brought home and i found it in the in the freezer one evening and i thought i'll give it a go. And it's only small as well. It's not like a unwieldy Magnum or something. Is it on a stick?

Yeah, it's on a stick and it is the greatest, but I was looking at the cookie butter spread and I was saying that it reminds me of like eating a biscuit when you're a child and you just masticate it until it's a paste in your mouth. Could you relate to that? Yes. What's that about? Yeah. Because it's like a transformation.

I don't know what that's about. It's such a vivid, spot on, universal thing that I was like, I thought I did that privately as a child. I think it's an urge that children have. Did you used to like to mash up your food as well? Like whatever it was, you just mash it, mix it all up. I used to do that. Do you know what? I really vividly remember getting the hot chocolate tin

and shaking it to make a powder and then inhaling the powder. It's so disgusting. You'd be sneezing and stuff though, right? Yeah, well, it's really like, I don't know. No, it's like Vicks, but it's like chocolatey Vicks. I don't remember mixing stuff together. I wasn't really allowed to like cook quite a lot of stuff when I was younger. I remember making mushrooms with lilt.

That was a big staple for quite a while. Just a bit of lilt I was younger. I remember making mushrooms with lilt. That was a big staple for quite a while. Just a bit of lilt in with the mushrooms. So like totally tropical. So you're frying up mushrooms in a frying pan. And then just add a bit of lilt. What made you think of that? I don't know where it came from.

Just my internal Jamie Oliver just switched on while I was drinking the lilt, I assume. Yeah. And sauteing the mushrooms. And I thought these things could be joined. I ate that a lot.

Wow, that is impressive creativity. That's genius. Presumably you could do that with a bag of cocaine as well. Well, put it in with the mushrooms. Yeah. Put it in with the mushrooms or just put it in a pot and shake it around and then inhale the cloud is that what like guys who run drug cartels do yeah they put all the air con on a load of dyson fans and just throw the bag into the room i remember going

to a like an event in london and it had you went into a room and you inhaled gin and tonic whoa yeah how what they had um vaporized it yeah and it was pumped into the room and you couldn't go in you it was like a timing thing and that you had to leave because you just basically get alcohol poisoning if you stayed in there for an hour but you basically just inhaled gin and tonic for like five minutes what party is this it was cool i don't know it was by bombas and par so they were doing loads of events they once did one that was like a lily pond and you got on a lily leaf and like punted across it but you could dip your cup into the whatever you put the lake and drink the punch it's like a kind of decadent charlie and the chocolate factory i mean that was already decadent i guess

wasn't it pretty decadent i just i'm obsessed with grandpa joe i don't know why i just keep thinking he kept saying he was ill and they were all ill but the second he got a ticket to the chocolate factory he was out of bed straight up jumping out of bed can you imagine the state of that bed oh i can now also they just must have been in terrible shape imagine the sores and everything i don't know maybe they were looking after each other properly part of me thinks the bottom of the bed is like when you walk into a river like like city, near the bottom. Yeah. And mysterious. You just don't think about it too much.

You just try and get to breaststroke as quick as you can. You know, they didn't write about it in the book, but maybe that was part of Charlie's job was to tend to them and care for them and ensure that everything was ship shape in the bed. But I would have liked it spelt out for me because it did worry me but i also feel like they were in the bed but the second he got a ticket to the chocolate yeah you're right he was like i don't need this bed yeah and his muscles would have been all wasted if he'd been in bed for that amount of time yeah i mean it's a deeply flawed book and i haven't got me started on the chocolate factory and the oompa Loompas. The Oompa Loompas.

Did you love the Oompa Loompas? In the book, yes. Not in the film. In the first film, yes. In the original film. The orange. Gene Hackman, yeah. Gene Hackman.

Gene Wilder. Gene Wilder. Which one's Gene Hackman? We're all ten of us. Yeah. Gene Wilder. Gene Hackman would have been a more stern president, I think. One of the Hollywood genes.

He's fantastic in it. Yeah, very good. What happens at the end? Does he just go off and do they go off in the elevator? Yes, they do. They bust through the ceiling of the factory and they blast off into space. Yeah. And that's where they meet the vomitious Knids.

But that's the sequel. Thinking of that, though, reminds me of an incident that you mention in your book, actually, in Trivial Pursuits from 2018, not that long ago, when there was a false alarm in Hawaii and they thought that they were going to get obliterated by nuclear weapons. I mean, it just seems, it's still unbelievable. I'd forgotten about that story

but it's so weird isn't it like it actually happened january 13th 2018 a ballistic missile alert was issued via the emergency alert system and commercial mobile alert system over television radio and cell phones in the state of hawaii and basically the residents of hawaii were told you've got six minutes or whatever it is yeah to live to live before the missile hits and what was your statistic oh i don't know what the percentage is but everyone went on porn hub porn hub like spiked in those six minutes everyone started touching themselves the knuckle what did i say knuckles flashing before your eyes before you die i just don't think that i would be doing that do you i have no idea i just imagine being like this silly alert i've been pranked and then everyone on twitter is like we're dying like

everyone you know is like this is it i don't know so you're sort of thinking well look i want to have one more wank but i don't have much time, so I'm going to have to use porn. Yeah. It seems like not the way you want to go out. No. Looking at someone else having sex. It really doesn't. It doesn't seem like quite the cherry on a lifetime of cake.

I just think if you're thinking about what you want to do before you die, you never think in six minutes. Like, I can't believe Pornhub spiked and went through the roof. It makes me feel like, thank God humans are still just being shit at being human. It makes me feel better. I would have hated it if, I don't know what else they could have Googled apart from porn. They could have Googled, I don't know, like a philosopher. They could have started thinking about how they'd lived their life and whether they'd made peace.

I mean, because presumably you're not talking about religious people. Or maybe you are. Maybe you're talking about people, whether they're religious or not, who are just thinking, actually, six minutes. What it comes down to is I've got to have a wank i want to come one last time before i go yeah sure i mean do you know what maybe it's more relatable than i thought it's the circle of life i was thinking about what you were saying about biscotti and the the chewed up stuff and i was thinking all of the best snacks are pre-chewed yes like those nut bars like the naked bars is like someone has

just chewed it for you. This is the convenience that I strive for. I'm not going to chew this. Why do I chew this? I'm a man on the go. I'm on the run. Exactly. I'm dashing from A to B. I haven't got time to chew a date. Mash it with some nuts for me. Yeah. We're all wandering around this planet thinking that we're so superior, we've learned all these lessons, we're so technologically advanced, we can fly to the moon, we've got Wi-Fi. And basically when it comes down to it, you want your mummy bird to chew up a snack and spit it into your mouth. And then you want to have a wank.

Wait. This is an advert for Squarespace. Every time I visit your website, I see success. Yes, success. The way that you look at the world makes the world want to say yes. It looks very professional. I love browsing your videos and pics and I don't want to stop. And I'd like to access your members area and spend in your shop.

These are the kinds of comments people will say about your website if you build it with Squarespace. Just visit squarespace.com slash Buxton for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, because you will want to launch, use the offer code Buxton to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain so put the smile of success on your face with squarespace yes continue you. Rosie, come on. Let's head back. Hello. Yeah. How are you doing? Not too bad. Thanks. Yeah. Wish the weather was better. Ah, tell me about it. Yeah, I'm watching that as well. It's quite good.

I know, Brendan Gleeson's amazing as Donald Trump. Ah, yeah. It'll all be over in three weeks. Yeah. OK, see ya. Very chatty bird. Welcome back, podcats. That was Raven Smith. Oh, squawky you'll find a link to his book raven smith's trivial pursuits in the description of this podcast

it is windy a couple of things to tell you before i say goodbye thing one on the 21st of October, 2020, at 9pm, I will be having a live-streamed podcast conversation for one hour with comedian Susie Ruffell, herself host of the Out podcast, which she describes as being about the inspiring lives of LGBTQ plus people. And I'll be chatting to Susie as part of the Unmute podcast festival. Other shows live streaming as part of Unmute include the Blind Boy podcast, Black Gals Live In, Brett Goldstein's films to be buried with, the Off Menu podcast, The Bugle with Andy Zaltzman,

Cuddle Club with Lou Sanders and more. Sign up for tickets for any of those shows or for my conversation with Susie Ruffell right now via the link in the description of this podcast. Hope you can make it. Podcast recommendation. Listen to a few episodes of this and I've really been enjoying it.

That was recommended to me by either Kiri Pritchard-McLean or Matthew Crosby or maybe both I saw them last week I was doing a thing in London and we were chatting about podcasts and one of them I can't remember who, mentioned the Hollywood Crime Scene podcast with Desi Jedikin and Rachel Fisher. They're Americans from America. They have a loose, informal way of conversing. It's irreverent, enjoyable, refreshing. I don't know much about Desi and Rachel, but they're very good on this podcast.

They discuss true tales of crime and scandal involving celebrities. Now, it's a crowded market, the whole true crime and scandal podcast world, which I would normally not be that interested in. I've never been a big true crime person. But the main thing about this podcast, or at least the ones I've listened to so far, is that Desi and Rachel are very funny with each other and talk about whatever they're talking about in a very entertaining and diverting way.

I listened to a recent one all about the Brady Bunch and some of the behind the scenes stories of that show. Here's a couple of reviews from Stitcher for the Hollywood Crime Scene podcast. This is a five star review from Frank Chicago. Hey, Frankie Chicago! Is that what people from Chicago sound like? No, I don't think so. Two great hosts with incredible chemistry, says Frank. I don't listen or read much true crime material.

Same here, Frank. But Desi Jedekin and Rachel Fisher do a terrific job with this show. Each episode focuses on a single crime or scandal related, at least tangentially, to Hollywood slash entertainment. Jedekin and Fisher alternate in hosting duties, which means one of them does a deep dive on the subject and presents most of the material, to which the other reacts. Both women are smart and funny on their own, but their warm camaraderie elevates the format to something special. I agree with you, Frank Chicago. Five stars. Now, for the sake of balance, here's a less positive review. Three out of five stars. This one is from

someone calling themselves M with loads of M's. And it was written about four months ago. Can't listen at work. Enjoy the topics and would love to listen at work. But the ladies use such bad language so often that I can't listen while I'm at work. Wow, Em really wants to listen at work. The episode today had an F-bomb every other sentence. Disappointing that they can't tell a story without the language. Fair enough, Em doesn't like the language. It didn't bother me personally.

But then, as you regular podcats will know, I don't mind swearing. I always feel with podcasts that people have definitely chosen to listen to those, and they generally do so on a one-to-one basis, often with headphones. a one-to-one basis, often with headphones. So really, I feel it's like talking to a friend, and if you understand that sometimes your friend will swear, then that's okay, isn't it? But I do understand that some people occasionally find bad language jarring and would prefer not to hear it at all. M is one of those people. But the thing I don't understand is, why is it so important for M to listen at work?

First of all, she's still going to work during the pandemic. I don't know, maybe she was in some part of the world where there wasn't a full lockdown. But once she's at work, why is it so important for her to listen loudly to a podcast while everyone else is trying to work? Guys, I'm just going to listen to my crime podcast. I hope everyone's cool with that. Okay. I don't think it's got swearing. Oh no, it's got swearing. Oh, no, it's got swearing. Guys, I'm... Oh, this is embarrassing. Oh, no, more swearing.

Oh, no, guys. You carry on working. I'm sorry. I'm going to... Just listening to my podcast. That's a childish characterization of what I imagine the situation was with M. I apologize, M.

Anyway, bad language or not, I very much enjoyed the Hollywood Crime Scene podcast. I'm grateful to either Kiri or Matthew for the recommendation. And I hope some of you enjoy it too. That's it for this week.

Thanks very much indeed, once again to Raven Smith for making the time to talk to me. Thanks to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for always invaluable production support and to Matt Lamont for additional editing the artwork for this podcast is by Helen Green there's a link to her site in the description back soon for more ridiculous waffling. But right now, from myself and Rosie, wherever you are, I hope you're doing

well, or reasonably well, or not too bad. One of those. Until next we meet, please take extremely good care. And for what it's worth, I love you.

Bye! Thank you. Bye. Thank you.