THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.139 - FRAN HEALY

Episode Date: November 8, 2020

Adam enjoys a rambling conversation with his old friend, Fran Healy of Travis about onanism, creativity and the mysterious process of songwriting, why comedians and musicians like hanging out with each other, why Adam is keen on name dropping and there's some emotional resolution after a drunken row that got out of hand 15 years ago…Recorded on the 8th October 2020 at The Pool recording studio, London.Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production support and to Matt Lamont for conversation editing. Podcast artwork by Helen Green https://helengreenillustration.com/RELATED LINKSDR BUCKLES' TRAVIS FAVOURITES (SPOTIFY PLAYLIST)TRAVIS WEBSITEALMOST FASHIONABLE (A FILM ABOUT TRAVIS, 2018) (SKY WEBSITE)PORTRAITS FOR NHS HEROES (THOMAS CROFT WEBSITE)COREGASM - EXERCISE INDUCED ORGASM IN WOMEN (2018, INDEPENDENT)And in ICYM, some Trump related fun to mark the election.TRUMP SCOOBY DO DEEP FAKE VIDEO (2020, YOUTUBE)DONALD TRUMP SAYS CHINA (2015, YOUTUBE)DAVE CHAPPELLE SNL MONOLGUE (2020, YOUTUBE) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human folk Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan. Hey, how are you doing, podcats? Adam Buxton here. And, oh, look at this. What are we looking at?

Let me tell you what I'm looking at. Out here in the Norfolk countryside. It's like a kind of special effect because on this day sunday the 8th of november as i speak it is now coming up to 4 30 in an hour it will be completely dark but it's been a lovely, mild, almost balmy day out here in the countryside. Very beautiful. And now that the evening chill is setting in, I guess the earth that has been warmed up by the sun is now making it misty in little localized patches that look like ghost areas.

It's quite cool. Look, Rosie, the mist is chasing us from over there. There's just a big, weird patch of mist. And it's coming towards us. Let's run away. Run away. Come on, Rosie. Sorry, I didn't mean to freak you out. Rosie's looking at me now like, what is your problem?

Do you want to go up the exciting hill where the cows usually are? I think the cows have gone away now for the winter. So we won't be antagonizing them. Yes. But let me tell you a bit about podcast number 138, which features a laughter and music-filled conversational ramble with frontman of Scottish band Travis, Fran Healy. Fran facts, Fran, currently aged 47, grew up in Glasgow, Scotland, and joined Travis on the day he enrolled at the Glasgow School of Art

in the autumn of 1991, having been invited to join by drummer Neil Primrose. Line-up changes, I love saying line-up changes because it makes me feel like a music journalist, and I'm really pulling the stops out with my music journalese in this intro lineup changes saw fran's art school friend dougie pain joining as bass player andy dunlop had been there from the start on guitar just open in the gate now the gate is closed the The band's second album, The Man Who, released in 1999 and featuring production from regular Radiohead producer Nigel Godrich, featured the singles Turn, Writing to Reach You, Driftwood and Why Does It Always Rain on Me?

After initially slow sales, The Man Who ended up selling over 3.5 million copies around the world, that's so many copies, and turned Travis into a headline act, seemingly plastered across the cover of every UK music mag as the new millennium dawned. Their 2001 album, The Invisible Band, recorded once again with Nigel Godrich,

also made it to the number one spot and contained more great, great hits. Sing, Side and Flowers in the Window. In 2002, various factors, including a nearly fatal spinal injury sustained by Neil Primrose while jumping in a pool, contributed to Travis taking a step back just as bands like Keane and most especially Coldplay were stepping up to snaffle the lion's share of the melodic guitar pop pie. I mean this is great writing from Buckles. Every member of Travis ended up starting a family over the next few years but they've never stopped touring and producing music, albeit in a way slightly more conducive to family life. Fran directed the documentary

Almost Fashionable, released in 2018, which contained great performances of some of the band's best-loved songs, played to ecstatic fans in Mexico, interspersed with thoughts from music writers about why this gang of likeable Scots making tuneful and accessible music had the capacity to occasionally rub critics up the wrong way. My conversation with Fran was recorded face to socially distanced face in a London music studio back in early October of this year, just before I hosted a Q&A with the whole band, which was streamed live to their fans around the world to celebrate the release of their ninth studio album, Ten Songs. Rosie!

Rosie, I'm going this way. Fly past from the hairy bullet it was very good to see the travis boys again as you'll hear we spent quite a bit of time hanging out at the end of the 90s and on into the early 2000s and though i still see dougie now and then fran has lived abroad for the last 15 years or so in places like New York, Berlin and now Los Angeles with his partner Nora and their son Clay and it had been a long time since we'd caught up. We dealt with some of the slightly more grown-up topics of conversation while I was setting up my mics but by the time I hit record we were somewhere a bit more juvenile. And there was a smutty, smutty motif that ran through much of our conversation.

Just so you're aware. In case that's going to be an issue for you. There was quite a bit of onanistic chit-chat. Wanky chat. But there's also thoughts on creativity and the mysterious process of songwriting. Why comedians and musicians like hanging out with each other. Some pretty good name dropping and a bit of resolution after a drunken row that got out of hand 15 years ago. Back at the end for a small helping of waffle,

but right now with Fran Healy, here we go. Come on, let's tune the fat and have a ramble chat. Put on your conversation coat and find your talking hat. Yes, yes, yes. La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, Have you ever... Is this the podcast? This is the podcast. So you don't have to answer this, but you know nowadays, I don't know how it is in your house, but I find that sometimes, like after a certain age when you've been with your partner for a long time, you don't have quite as much sexy time as maybe you once did when you first met.

Yeah. But maybe you still carry on having solo fun on a semi-regular basis. It's the best fun to have. Sure, yeah. And it's convenient. It's easy to schedule. It's portable. Yeah.

Have you ever had a situation where you've had some solo fun and that's all finished and then suddenly your partner makes it clear that actually there's a sexy time invitation on the table but you're not in a position to um take up the offer all right because you've just finished your business yeah i've emptied the cistern. Flushed. Yeah. No? No.

Can you remember your first wank? Yes, although it wasn't a formal one, it wasn't a kind of manual one. What? With me it's...

Did you have one of those weird contraptions that you put over it? A fleshlight. What? It's called the fleshlight. Oh, my God. No, it's not.

I didn't know what that means. It looks like a flesh-colored torch with a kind of rubbery fanny on the end. So it's all portable. Right. The fleshlight. Maybe it doesn't exist anymore, but there used to be adverts for them everywhere you went on the internet, or at least everywhere I went. Pushing them to watch you.

You need this. Aha. No, for me, my first experiences of that kind of thing, autoerotic joy, were climbing up the rope at gym class and he talks about that and when i saw wayne's world there's a line in there and garth says he made me feel kind of funny you know like when you climb the rope at gym class and i was like whoa i thought that was just me that's interesting my one was um guy who was in our class at school. He was much taller than everyone else and much more mature. That's like primary seven, I think, which was 11 years, 12 years old.

You'd not get any thoughts even in your head at that point. But he came in one day and he's like, whoa, let me tell you something. And we were all sitting around the table and he's like, what? And then you just rub it. And then you... And I was like, I was just in the background kind of nodding going, so that night I was in my room.

I thought, I'm going to give it a little rub. And... And suddenly I was like, wow, I'm i'm spider-man yeah except not out the hands wow it really does feel like a superpower yeah no it took me quite a while i think before i i went the traditional route because after that there was a quite a long period of sliding around in the bath. In the bath? On my front. Wow.

How old were you? I was pretty young, I think. I mean, I was way ahead of my time. Did you get pubes before all the other boys? I certainly wasn't lagging behind. But no, there was a guy I remember seeing in the showers, and he had a man's knob he must have been only there's always one of them yeah he must have been just 11 or 12 yeah and he had a bloke's a grown man's knob it's like god's photoshop yeah i'm gonna put that on him do you know inversely there's probably a guy a grown man

and he's like what have i got this baby dick oh my god and i was absolutely fascinated by it though i remember thinking like holy shit look at the equipment on this guy. And it was so bushy and big. And I was like, wow. And I didn't want it, though. I wasn't envious. No.

But did you never go through a phase of feeling guilty and anxious about all that kind of thing? About what? Wanking? Yeah. No. No. No, no. I I mean I should have because I brought up a Catholic

but no not at all I was like wow this is the greatest thing that has ever happened to me and probably still is to this day better than like

you know getting a record deal nothing comes close actually it's the gift that keeps giving do you I find it hard to believe

that there's people out there who don't ever you know dabble sure there are absolutely people abstain don't they who was i listening to the other day i was listening to a podcast with russell brand and he was talking about the fact that he no longer pleasures himself why because he said since he's had children he has a daughter i think maybe more than one i'm not sure he finds it too weird he thinks that it's strange to compartmentalize his sexuality in that way he's not able to do it so he finds it too creepy to be having wanky time on his own and thinking sexy thoughts and maybe looking at pictures of other people, and then going and being a more wholesome version of himself with his children. And so he's decided just to knock it

on the head, or at least he had done this was 2018. I think the podcast was from but i thought gosh that's weird because that compartmentalization is a fundamental aspect of being a human being really part of the fun yeah exactly as you say it's part of the fun you know you can be a different person if you're having consensual sex or you're on your own or whatever you're indulging and you're working through various... Characters? Yeah, characters, styles. You know, maybe also you're working through stuff that you know is not really acceptable. I mean, I'm not, you know... Let's just assume I'm talking about stuff

that is not totally beyond the pale. But maybe it's stuff that you would be embarrassed to do with your partner or I don't know what. We're only, this is the very beginning of the podcast. But you know, that's what it is. Human sexuality is a mysterious thing. To put it simply, we're all kind of schizophrenic. We have our cerebral selves, which is where, what's his name?

Russell? Oh yeah, Russell Brand. It's where Russell has gone. He's gone yeah russell brant it's where russell has gone he's gone into his head so he's thinking about it and the monkey you because everyone's got the animal you know it's your emotional core and it's kind of the one that has these urges i wouldn't say their thoughts it's because it's a an urge before you think, oh, I'm going to, you know, your mind clicks onto it. So I think you've got two things and you have to satisfy both the animal and the cerebral part. So, you know, for the cerebral part, you might, I don't know, go and see a Radiohead concert.

And then the monkey part, you might want to do that. You might want to do that while you watch the radio. I mean, whatever, like you said. Whatever floats your boat. Could you imagine just an audience of people? Kill two birds with one stone. Someone must have had a wank at a radio headcon. Absolutely.

On stage. Oh God. Here's the thing though. You, the first time I met you. I was masturbating. No. No. No, no, no.

It was an indirect meeting because I saw your sketch on Big Train. Oh, yeah. The wanking sketch, which is still one of the best sketches ever. I know. I like to take credit for it. I mean, I've said before, I've explained the situation before, that Graham Linehan got in touch with us. He had been watching the Adam and Joe show and he liked it. It was one of the first messages, one of the first emails I received from someone I didn't know. And it was so exciting. Oh, my God. And then he said, would you and Joe like to write some ideas for Big Train? And I'm like, yeah, sure. But they were like two line ideas, most of them, you know, and one of them that I wrote was, what if wanking in the office was like smoking? Or maybe I didn't even write that. Maybe I'm giving myself too much credit. But it was basically wanking in the office. And I think I wrote something else about it being just, you know, a very banal part of office life and scheduling a wank with the secretary and that kind of thing.

And then Graham and Arthur took it in a different direction and then simon and all the rest of the cast improvised very brilliantly with it but i still take credit for the sketch so that was the first time i was aware of you but without realizing you were part of that yeah you you guys were into all that stuff because i remember in the man who on the sleeve notes i think you did a thank you to... To Big Train. To Big Train, right. I found it so high-minded.

Back then, I didn't know it was Graham Linehan who'd done Father Ted, and then he went on to Black Books after that. And then, obviously, I met him through you. And he's just this... He's so smart. And again, through you and through other comedians, you realise... I realised, oh oh comedians are

actually the smartest people that you can kind of meet you know all the guys that go around but you you kind of are you know I would never like I hate going out with comedians on a night out because you just get absolutely ripped to bits it's horrific and it's funny you just don't open your mouth do you think that but comedians are all in awe of musicians though isn't that weird yeah why is that um because they envy that ability to express themselves in a sincere way without having to constantly deflect everything with humor. That's my theory. I just made that up. But it's got to be something about that. It's got to be something about that level of authenticity and not having to make everything funny. I just envy the ability that you have and people like you have to write a song to express an emotion

without having to lean on humour. I can't even conceive of how you would begin to do that, to evoke a sincere feeling. Yeah, I think that's it. I think comedians are really cerebral. But the funny bone people like Stan Laurel, Chaplin, for instance, Buster Keaton, all the original guys they're quick there's a quickness to them and as I guess I've over the years I'm so attracted to that more than musicians actually because this quickness it's like real watching people doing magic in front of you when they're not just reading a joke off a sheet they're just funny people like you say funny boned people yeah it's super smart it's a nice though, because everyone gets something out of it.

They like hanging around with the musicians. Because, can we do lots of name-dropping in this conversation? Yeah, sure. Love it. I love it. And actually, you know, if we have time and if we feel mentally able, we could even go a little bit deep into why I might love name dropping so much.

And what bearing it might have on a big row that you and I once had. Is this ringing any bells? We only had one row. Yeah. The row. At the wedding. Oh, that was a row. Yeah, man.

Well, okay. Yeah? Well, yeah. Well, we've teased it. We'll build towards it. That was a row. That was a massive row. You shouted at me.

You made me cry. Mate, don't spoil it. Don't spoil the row. Okay. But, okay, name dropping. I met Ben Stiller because you brought him along to a show. Was that a Travis show? We were at the Brixton Academy.

And who were we seeing? I have no idea. We went to see someone. Maybe it was Weezer or… Pixies? Maybe Pixies, yeah. That might be right. And so I think I knew that I was going to meet you,

but then maybe you phoned up beforehand, pre-texting days, and said, can I bring my friend Ben Stiller? I was like, yeah, all right. And how did you know him? I can't remember that. I mean, I literally have no recollection of that. It must have been around 2003, 2004. 2003, 2004. Anyway, I remember sitting around and chatting a little bit beforehand and being immediately struck by how kind of intense Ben was as a person.

Like he's got quite a cerebral aspect to him. I guess it's that thing that there's a seriousness. Like I say, there is that. A lot of comedians and musicians, we're different than we are on stage. We go on stage and we turn ourselves inside out almost. And I think he's no exception. But as a fan, you expect someone to be. I mean, I've met lots of comedians

who I expect to be the same as they are. And some are, like Ricky Gervais is. He's probably even more outrageous in person than he is when he's on stage. He is outrageous on stage as well. But a lot of guys go back to normal again. They put their normal thing on and they listen. That's what I've noticed a lot about people like that. They're quiet.

They're just taking it in and listening. Filling the chuckle tank. They just sort of, they're just taking it in and listening. Filling the chuckle tank. Yeah. Hoovering it all up in order to spew it out later. That's quite nice though, isn't it? For you to have these people that you like and admire be attracted to you.

Yeah, it's really cool. Because you went, like, tell me at any point, like, oh, I don't really want to talk about that. Oh, right. That's just a bit too tacky but i couldn't believe i remember sometime early in the 2000s you went on holiday with billy connolly yeah the very cool thing about that little episode um it was billy's 60th birthday he had a birthday in scotland and we'd gone to that and that was like an amazing thing the big event because he is like a British superhero

Billy's just first of all one of the greatest storytellers ever and observers of life and points you know the mirror back

at everyone and it just explains things that's what great stories and humour and songs and all that it fills in the blanks and with him

you're laughing and you come away and it sticks you've learned something about maybe yourself I mean I'm so starstruck I can't not ever ever not be starstruck around him because he's one of the only people I can't not lose that with

he's just got this effect on me anyway so he's that and we went to his birthday up in their castle. He had a castle up in the middle of Scotland. And people were coming in from everywhere for it. It was an amazing event. It was like serious living Madame Tussauds. I was sitting next to Moon Unit and Dweezil at Zappa.

Two of my favorite sods right there. Two sods. The thing is, I really don't like all of that. Yeah. And it was a little bit too much for me. And so I just went and found a room and just went and sat in this room and hid. And it was a two-day thing,

so I had to leave the room and go to bed and things, and I'd go back to that room the next day just to not be in, it's too much. So I'm sitting in the room and go to bed and things and I go back to that room the next day just to not be in it's too much so I'm sitting in the room it was very nice like a reading or a drawing room or whatever I was sitting in this big sort of armchair with my back to the door and I'd been there for hours and hours just just having a nice chill and be by myself like about four hours in door opens and I'm like and door closes and then clip and it's Billy and he's like the fuck are you doing here and I'm like I don't I can't he's like I me too and he went there to escape as well and he had the exact same thing and it might be

being from Glasgow or being Scottish or I think he struggles with that as well I mean he he could have sorted that by not inviting those people well yeah but I think there's Billy and Pamela yeah you know and Pam's a Pam's amazing she's the kind of organizer she's the the light bulb in the room and Billy very quiet like me and he likes his own company and Pam was the kind of come on everyone let's have a party let's you know

get everyone together and mix and mingle and it's very much her thing yeah but that was that and then a few months later we got a phone call from I think it was Pam

she's like we're going would you want to holiday time where'd you go Centre Parcs yeah we went to Fiji holy shit She's like, we're going, would you want to? Holiday time. Where'd you go, Centre Parcs? Yeah. We went to Fiji. Holy shit.

It was just the whole, like the whole trip there was surreal. But I remember feeling slightly like just a deer caught in the headlights. Yeah. You probably got back to the UK and then just were ill for five weeks. Yeah. I had a nervous breakdown. The thing is, I'm not into that. I'm not into that sort of thing. The hobbing and the knobbing.

Not really, no. And I always had a bit of a weird inverse chip with fame and being this guy, you know, this famous person. Well, let's talk about that. Because I met you guys when you were on the cusp of all that. Yeah. And me and Joe were having our makeup done for a photo shoot. And it was, I guess, 1999. And I remember meeting Nora and she was doing our makeup for this photo shoot.

I remember that. And we got talking and she said, oh, my boyfriend's in a band. I was like, oh, yeah. And she said, they're called Travis and they've got a record coming out quite soon. It's called The Man Who. I was like, oh, yeah, cool.

And weirdly, I think the same week I was in HMV and the DJ played, he was was like this is the new one from travis uh school driftwood and i was like oh yeah this is the band that nora was talking about oh that sounds good and then you came to our party yeah you and dougie that's right yeah yeah because we had a tx party when our show went out. It was the third series, I think. And we went and had a big party in a place called the TARDIS. Yes. Up in Farringdon, a venue where a lot of artists worked and you could hire it out. And it was good fun.

And there was lots of musicians there. I think I've told this story before. But Marky Smith and The Fall came because they'd been on the show. We invited them. We never thought they would come. And the day before, no, actually that afternoon, the afternoon of the party, our producer said, Oh, I just got a call from Mark Smith. And he said that he's going to come and bring a few members of the band.

I was like, Oh, my God. I was terrified that he was just going to cause havoc and run around beating up my posh friends. Which he didn't. He was really nice. But you'd done something with him on that. We did a Vinyl Justice thing with him. I found that the other day.

I found that whole shoot. I've got it. Nora filmed all of it. You come into the door and she was like a fly on the wall filming you filming us. Yeah, because we did a thing with you for our fourth series. I'm not sure we ever used it in the end. Because it was, we were doing a pilot.

And the pilot didn't work out the way we wanted. But you very nicely helped us out and did a thing. What was it called? It was like a vinyl justice variant with videos. So we went round the TV detector van. That's what it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Me and Joe were dressed up like TV detectors and we raided your house.

That's right. And you and Andy and Doug and Neil were sat there. And we talked about what TV you watched. And we all sang Going for Gold. That's right. Going for gold. The heat is on. The time is it's time for you for you to play your game join in whenever you want people are coming everyone's trying trying to do the best that they can i remember it was andy who was most um like into that because he was the king of daytime tv at

that time that's right yeah and there was a lot of chat about dusty bin yeah and that kind of thing anyway so so we were back at the yeah the tardis you came along and that was the first time that we met and then we spent quite a lot of time together for the next few years really we became good friends very fast you came to america when we recorded the invisible band that's right i remember being in the bar before we started recording and going what was going to be like whether it was going to work out or not nigel hadn't arrived yet he was just coming off a kiddie nigel godrich yeah radio Yeah. Radio heads producer. And he produced The Man Who. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he produced The Man Who with a couple of other people involved, but this was going to be solely Nigel. So we were waiting on

him, I think, in some bar on Hollywood Boulevard. Yeah, that was incredibly exciting. It was for all of us, wasn't it? It was like this kind of mad, what's going on here? And that must have been when, 2000? 2000, yeah. So that was the year that you had broken through by that time. The Man Who came out and was a bit of a sleeper hit. And then you did the Glastonbury performance. It started raining and everything kind of coalesced until I think in 2000 you were on the cover of Q

and cover of pretty much every music magazine. Yeah, it was mental. And then you almost immediately started experiencing a little bit of a backlash. And what did that feel like? When I say backlash, I don't mean, it wasn't like horrible and vicious. No, no. But I remember you were so ubiquitous. Yeah, it was too much. That the Face magazine had a little i hate travis i hate travis badge which i wore on my cap right

forever because i kind of kind of liked it i thought it was quite cool to be that the band had gotten that sort of big that we'd flipped into the the other side of it like you say so quickly that's not something that bothers me too much never really got in my nerves it got more i think maybe uh later on because by that time yeah the invisible band we were still we were still riding on the man who crest of a wave type of thing and that the invisible band did well because of the man who, and the tsunami was still rolling. And then when everything settles down and the next band's come through

and you just go back to sort of being in a band and touring and doing normal things and you lose your force field and everyone starts, the vultures start coming in. That can get a little bit like, get a bit personal. We just made like the last thing we did before this record a documentary about us called Almost Fashionable. And I got a critic to come, a guy who didn't like us,

to come on the road with us and to sort of cover it, to try and figure it out, you know, like, what is it? Yeah, what is it that winds up critics, especially about Travis? And what were his conclusions? Well, the gamble was, I always think, I've always thought that the Travis that was projected, because you've got no control over that. I'm always a little bit jealous of bands who seem to be able to control it.

I mean, Radiohead's control of their optic is just amazing. I don't know if they do that deliberately, or it's just, that's just them or whatever, but we've just, it's been totally, you can't really control that, I don't think. But I always found that the distortion of what we are and what I knew us to be, to what was on the other side of it,

was so different. And I couldn't figure that out. Like, what's there not to like? We're not horrible. And the music's not terrible. So this guy coming in, I wanted to see, and sure enough, like, very quickly, he realises that this band here are not the same as that band there.

But I think the big thing that I think rubs a lot of people up is that we're nice. This word, this horrible word, nice. And I think being Scottish, people are quite light-hearted there and we have this lightness about us and people are nice. But it's not a bad word, you know.

Yeah. But I think that's a wound we folk up. Well, I think traditionally the whole paradigm for a certain type of rock music, especially credible, authentic. I overuse the word authentic. But that kind of thing, especially for critics, it's got to be authentic. It's got to be grimy and dark.

It's got to be angsty. It's got to be a cry of pain, a shout of rage. Those are the quintessential statements of rock music, a certain type of music. are the quintessential statements of rock music a certain type of music and even though there were elements of that in travis's music you know you get that thrill that visceral thrill from a lot of your songs all i want to do is rock and the big shouting there and yeah but the fact that it was so accessible a lot of it and then the man who is just this lovely, lush-sounding thing. I suppose inoffensive is a word that you could attach to it because it didn't jar, it wasn't grating, it was easy to like, it was very melodic.

And it sold almost three million copies. Right, that's the thing that really is the irritating part, isn't it, for a certain type of critic. But again, you don't have control over that and you find yourself going oh but yeah the in the doc we interviewed critics um pete piffades is brilliant in it he nails it completely and other journalists talk about exactly what you're saying what's the new what's the story what's the new story and we didn't want to play that game so neither did they so they almost grudgingly had to follow when everything was playing

their songs they were like okay Travis, Travis, Travis right but anyway yeah it was a mad time yeah mad

at this point yes how do you feel about playing a song? yeah just to remind us what we're dealing with I'm going to swing my

mic around onto your guitar. Oh yeah. Ready? Do you know what I'm going to play? Out of space? No. What is it?

Dear diary What is wrong with me Cause I'm fine Between the lines be not afraid help is on its way this night shake This ends like a veil Under the sail

Of my Of my Heart Be still Don't stop Until the end Dear diary What is wrong with me?

Because I'm fine between the lines. That's fine sound okay? That's lovely. Except 12 Memories. No, that was the Invisible Band. Oh, that's the Invisible Band. That's why I was playing it, because that was one of the songs we were recording when you were out that time.

Yes, in Ocean Way. How amazing it was to be in Ocean Way. Oh, it's a brilliant studio. So, for people that don't know know put it in context a little bit Ocean Way is a studio in Los Angeles where we recorded The Invisible Band with Nigel Godrich in 2000

and it's a really amazing studio because well it's an old studio it's got a lot of history Frank Sinatra did a lot of recording there everyone it was one of those very very busy studios back in the day wrecking crew that sort of thing those guys were jumping in and out of those studios beach boys were there weren't they um yeah all the thing is all of these bands were in and out of all of those studios because they go back to the 50s and 60s it's a cool place and it's all

wood paneled vaulted ceilings yeah like everywhere in los angeles when the sun goes down low lit lots of fairy lights yeah because when i went out there i think you were coming towards the end of the sessions and i went out there with my video camera and i filmed i think i filmed more or less the whole of sing coming together you've got that one yeah i think so i've got a lot of it that's great that's that's a i would love to see that i'll swap you in tv detectives for that okay cool i know i digitized it recently it was lovely watching it again and i thought wow this is great. And there's one bit, because you recorded a lot of it in the round.

Yeah, well, Neil's behind the glass. Yeah. Because the drum spill was too loud. It would go in the mics. But yeah, live. That's what Nigel's thing is. He gets everyone playing live. And then you had, I remember you saying that you had another alternate lyric for sing.

What was that? Which was, Oh God. Lately you've been going so crazy. Lately you've been going so crazy. Lazy, I've been driving Miss Daisy. That's right. What a terrible lyric.

You know, but this is what you're, this is the thing that, I read a nice article article tom york was talking about um at the moment there's 20 years or 25 years since kiddie 20 years yeah and um at the time he wrote uh he did something with q or one of these magazines where he said he just hates all melody makes him feel so uncomfortable and just didn't like it and the thing is I know that feeling because that's the feeling that you have to go through to find a good melody and at the end of it and Tom's one of the I think in my opinion greatest rock melody writers but he that process of writing shit like that, I mean, it just comes out

and you just have to take it and go, oh, and realize that, you know, you're only as good as the shittest thing that you ever wrote. So you're always going to be shit, but you need to eat that humble pie. You have to do that to grind down your ego until it's just decimated.

And then just beyond that is the wee thing that you want you know a little bit of gold or the dime or whatever you want to call it do you have a memory of a time when a song came easily and pleasurably and you were pleased with the result a simple birth i think sing's a good example of that. That was like watching MTV with the sound turned down, just looking at the pictures, and there was some thing about swing beat, and I was playing this thing, and I was like, if you swing, swing, swing.

That's quite good, swing, swinging in a swing, when you're like this feeling when you're in the park, when you're a little. So I went into the studio the next day, and I'm going to the guys, check this out. swing and dougie immediately like swing you're writing a song about swinging i'm like oh yeah right okay my mind was all on the park and going wiii and dougie was chucking his keys in the bowl and i'm having a dinner party somewhere in Giffnock. So then I thought, yeah, what if we changed it to sing?

But that came like that. I was talking to you before we started recording about how things changed for you when you became a father and when your priorities shifted away from feeling that you had to write songs all the time, more to just being a dad yeah but now well tell me about the conversation you had with clay yeah well we were we were talking about how i was sitting at the piano about it's about a year and a half ago and clay came in and he's like papa i think you i should do the band i think'm done. I'm good. Because we'd been talking maybe a week earlier

about life with the band. I don't go on the road and don't, you know, I sort of don't do the whole way for weeks and weeks and weeks because I wanted to be here and be a dad and put my thing into you. That sounds sexy. Put my thing into you and that sounds sexy put my thing into you put reverb on that um and he he was he was like all right and i think at that point he was i don't know he came back a week later and he's like no you know and and i'd said in some interview the other day it's

like pinocchio kind of getting off the the day, it's like Pinocchio getting off the workbench and being like, right, stop sanding. I'm good. I can walk, look. Go back and start making your sideboards again. Geppetto. So I feel like I'm able to fully concentrate. I feel like I've gotten quite cool songs come through. Has the process of writing songs changed over the years

no still like pulling teeth still like pulling teeth yeah do you know that film There Will Be Blood yeah man that's a great film right

yeah bastard in a basket yes I love that and he's down that hole at the beginning yeah man

and he's just like he's got his pickaxe and he's whacking the thing and then he puts the wee bit of dynamite in goes up blows it up comes back down breaks his leg and that to me watching that's this that's the creative process you're in this hole and you're chipping away and it's so boring and there's nothing creative about it which is the creative part then for you once you get the wee germ of the idea whether it's if you swing

swing, the rest of it just comes out very quickly and everything just fills itself in and when doing that, when you get that when that happens, that's the addictive part of you want that, so once you get that song done you want to try again so you start

digging again because really there is when a song finds you, and I don't think you find the song, I think it reveals itself to you. I think that's the feeling, you're finding something that was there already. You're just, you remember in Scooby-Doo when they throw the paint over the invisible man, and you're like, there he is!

And the guy's like, you rascal kids. That's, to me, songs songs are they're not even songs but stories and things are just out there floating about and your job is just to sit if you're quiet enough and kind of still enough then they come they come to you i think a song is just trying to bubble up What's it called? You know, I try and write songs because... I love your songs. I mean, songs maybe is too grand a word for them. They're jingles.

But I do try and write jingles. And man, during the lockdown, holy Moses, how many songs about biscuits can I write? It's just, I'm so literal-minded. All I can do is write songs about my everyday routine. How do you manage to abstract your way of thinking to the extent that you can write about a feeling? You can evoke a feeling. Literally, I just wrote a song about a tea towel the other day that wasn't very absorbent. And I thought, yeah, that's pretty good. Because that's the two ways of writing.

One is designing and one is divining. And at its best, it's a combination of both. The Beatles, there's that funny story, or not funny story, cool story about them in the back of the car and they need to write a song tomorrow because they're going in to do a session or they're doing the album, they're one song short. And Lennon's like, oh, what are you they're one song short and then Lenin's like oh

what are you going to write the song about and Carter's like I'll write it about what you do in there and he's got a book and he's like okay I'll write and he wrote paperback writer just to he used that thing so he's he's designing but there's also the divining thing which is he woke up singing yesterday or the melody for yesterday it just was there it's like howling or something and it just kind of comes out so you have to just try and switch your brain off because whenever i've tried to write a serious song and i have a few times like if i'm feeling sad for example i've noticed in times where i felt really sad and lonely and desperate that music definitely is a comfort massive comfort and so i thought well

wouldn't it be great if i could write a song in this moment that would cheer me up more so capture some part of the essence of this feeling and turn it into art anyway it's fucking impossible but you're almost there it's just the difference is you're i think it's a lyric thing so forget about language for a second because language is like the very last part of the whole process but just sitting and making noises and you know i really hate anyone who can hear me writing it's so embarrassing because you're you sound like you're speaking in tongues a little bit like and at some point if you lose your mind a little bit and you just are you recording it and something happens and it's there's no lyrics there might be a maybe a lyric there

but you're just waiting for this moment and then it might come or it might not but usually it doesn't usually it's just most of the time, it's Driving Miss Daisy. And it's horrible. And that feeling is just, you just feel like shit most of the time. And that's why I really hate songwriting. I really do. But you must love the result, though. You must love all those children that you've brought into the world,

those musical children. Because they're wonderful. I was listening to your stuff. I mean, your stuff pops up a lot on my phone anyway, and it's always welcome when it does. And then, knowing that I was going to see you, I made a playlist on Spotify, which I will put in the description of this podcast

of some of my favorite Travis songs. Apart from the fact that they remind me of a very happy time hanging out with you guys, there really is a special thing that they do, which is, apart from being melodic and accessible, there's a vulnerability to them and a sweetness to them that is wonderful and made me very emotional listening to them. And you must be proud of those,

that you've created those things which affect people that way yeah i was thinking about it the other day and it was um in la when you're in your car because you spend a lot of time driving around and there's a lot of you know dicks in other cars who will flip you off and shout at you through their window and what's happening there you know when someone does that road rage issue and you get really it makes me so cramps me up i get really sad or and angry as well obviously but you get so sad so what's actually happening there is they're going and then you get to feel how they feel that energy or whatever it is it's like they've taken a spoonful of themselves and gone, here, taste this spoonful of shit.

And you're like, that's disgusting. But you're tasting how they feel. Right? Yeah. And this is how I try and square that so I don't need to own it because it's not how I feel at that moment.

I've just tasted them and it's horrible. So you are spooning your musical shit into the yeah into the mouth no

I'm spooning angel you can spoon shit or it could be angel delight yeah right so

but the same thing applies with songs when you write a song it's there and it comes out and you get this lovely feeling of it's arrival that you've it's landed on you song it's there and it comes out and you get this lovely feeling of its arrival that it's landed on you

or it's discovered you or you've discovered it or whatever it is you want to call it but there it is and you get this amazing there's no feeling honestly like it

apart from when you hear a song that connects to you and it's weird and magical and like and like

addictive like nothing you've ever it's better than wanking I mean not it's the only thing just a bit better maybe just a wee bit better than wanking

not much but it's just got the edge a lot of it is very similar to wanking as well yeah you sit at the end of your bed you pull out your instrument you start strumming A lot of it is very similar to wanking as well. Yeah, you sit at the end of your bed. You pull out your instrument.

You start strumming gently at first. And then you... Build to the climax. Anyway, we've done this already. But I'm afraid we've already laid the foundations for the argument story, the row. Yeah, we had a bad row. We've spoken about this since right

yeah the day after we spoke about it the day after and since then you tell the story and I'll interject if I think you've got

anything wrong or would you rather I told it I was thinking about this the other day because we were really drunk yeah I was thinking

sorry just to preface I don't think I've ever been so drunk since yeah and I think it just isn't part of my

life now it's not possible physically for me to get that hammer I don't think any of us did that even then it was just one of

those nights that was long it was a sustained yeah it was a long day a very very long sustained drinking session that just went on and on

and culminated in an explosive finale and as i can remember it was simon pegg's wedding simon and maureen were getting married in 2005 could be and we all went to the to the thing and um i don't know how to tell this story like there's there's well one of the foundations you need to set in place is that among the guests were Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Carson right so we all went to the wedding it was lovely yeah and then we went to the after party thing and then we went into the party and I can't remember much else and then me and you were sitting on a chair and there was a a girl there I can't remember much else and me and you were sitting on a chair and there was a a girl there

I don't know who it was it wasn't Gwyneth Paltrow it was definitely not they'd gone and then you were you were like you fucking prick

or something you said something really not nice you called me a like a fucking you're a fucking wanker or something like that

and I was like what? and he's like you know what I'm talking about in the church today and I knew exactly what you and I felt really self-conscious about this one moment which was we were in the church at the end of the wedding it was really nice and Gwyneth and Chris were there and we used to go and we'd hang out every now and then so we were like they were like oh hi and everyone had evacuated from the the church and we were just standing chatting and going oh

and they were like we're going to go out this door at the back out the back door and i was like oh and so i was caught in this moment of normal people superst superstars, and I didn't, they were like, come on. And I was like, it was almost like the bit where someone's like, here, have some meth. You're like, I don't really, but I don't really want to hurt your feelings. And okay. So we went into their car or whatever and drove off.

They wanted to avoid the paps. Yeah. So I went out and you you were like you and it was just it felt and it was had you done that with just me but it was this other the girl that was sitting that i was so embarrassed that you embarrassed me in front of this girl i got up and i left and my feelings were absolutely fucking destroyed and I was getting in the taxi and you came out and you were like

what are you doing? and you were like really aggressive I'd never seen you so aggressive before and I was like taken aback and I just started crying because someone was shouting at me like a grown up you suddenly became a grown up

and you were like I can't remember what you said and I was like Because someone was shouting at me like a grown-up. Like you suddenly became a grown-up. And you're like... I can't remember what you said. And I was like... And we sort of made up there and then. I think we just were drunk or whatever. And that was that. And then you came in the next day and that was that. Well, that is not exactly the way I remember it all right i mean those are the basic facts yeah

yeah i said at the beginning that i you know was going to tell the story because it kind of tied in with me encouraging you to do a lot of name dropping in this podcast and the thing is that i think that you know part of the fun of going and hanging out with you guys in those days was that it was like wow this is what it's like i got to see second hand what it was like to be in kind of a-list company there were stars coming and going and you know noel gallagher might turn up and it was it was amazing tagging along with you guys and it was fascinating for me i had a quite an unhealthy interest in that side of celebrity and that sort of thing you know so even though it wore off a little bit and i got used to

it and i adjusted to it and i saw that okay it's not all like that and a lot of it's bullshit but there was still quite a lot of that residual fascination with that world there and i think it used to just get peaked every now and again yeah and that was one of those days when it did when i saw it's like oh gwyneth and it was kind of like wow this is kind of weird and crazy and fun but i also knew you very well yeah and so i felt as if i was able to tease you about it oh yeah and you wouldn't get upset because i thought you understood that of course i know i love you, of course, I love you. And of course, I don't really think that you're shallow at all.

And I was showing off. I was showing off. Look at me. I'm teasing my famous friend about going with the other famous people. I'm Mr. Celeb Bantz guy. Oh, dear. I was hammered. My judgment was all off.

My timing was all off my timing was all off everything all the all the dials were going your voice still echoes in my head going you fucking i can't believe i said that and if i did it was supposed to be a joke i know but it was i think what i was doing was taking the piss out of someone who would genuinely think that i was taking the piss out of a twat i know i know the thing is i know that no you know and i knew that as soon as you came out and you shout but the shouting thing though the shouting thing i'll tell you exactly what that was because i do remember that bit was that you were not making sense by that point you were really fucked off and really drunk we were both hammered and you wanted to snap me over yeah we were not but it was

communicating yeah it was necessary but it's like it was amazing it was like a moment well it was like I think I remember my dad getting angry with us when we were little and you know suddenly if there was just too much noise and too much hysteria he he would just suddenly, now stop doing that now. And it would just be like, whoa. You know, and I was trying to talk to you and you were sort of a bit teary and hysterical. You were like, no, but you meant that. And you do, you know, and you were making valid criticisms and you were pointing out quite rightly that I'd been a tit.

But you weren't listening. I was trying to apologize and I was saying, listen, man, I'm so sorry. And I didn't mean that. And you know I love you. I was already there. I know. I was gone. At a certain point, I was just like, okay.

I love you, Adam. I love you too, man. And I'm sorry for shouting at you. And I'm sorry for doing that stupid joke. And I'm sorry for being such a shallow, star-struck tit. Let's have a wank. Come on, then. I would love you to play another song.

Because it would be lovely just to have one to wrap the whole thing up. just to have one to wrap the whole thing up. Okay, I don't know. This is called Butterflies. Chasing butterflies by the water Watching airplanes because you got them inside. Inside, everything is wrong. Outside, ooh, outside. You keep your eyes on the prize

And your head in your hands You can't see the wood for the trees Even when all the leaves are gone Cause you're still chasing butterflies Watching all the years roll by You've had all your life to dream about it But you never did a thing about it Just waste time

Waste time, everything is wrong But you're fine You're fine You keep your eyes on the prize And you're hitting your head so You can't see the wood for the trees Even when all the leaves are gone Cause you're still chasing butterflies

Watching all the years roll by But we're soldiers, soldiers run Yeah, we're soldier, soldier on Inside Inside everything is wrong But you're fine You're fine You keep your eyes on the prize And your head in your hands

So You can't see the wood Or the trees Even when all the leaves are gone Cause you're still chasing Butterfly Watching all the years Cause you're still chasing butterflies Watching all the years roll by

Waiting for your ship to arrive You're still chasing butterflies But we're so just so drunk I love it! I love it thank you wait this is an advert for squarespace every time I visit your website, I see success. Yes, success. The way that you look at the world makes the world want to say yes.

It looks very professional. I love browsing your videos and pics, and I don't want to stop. and pics and I don't want to stop and I'd like to access your members area and spend in your shop these are the kinds of comments people will say about your website if you build it with Squarespace just visit Squarespace dot-com slash Buxton for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, because you will want to launch, use the offer code BUXTON to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. So put the smile of success on your face with Squarespace. Yes.

Continue. And put my thing into you. Hey, welcome back, podcats. Well, you know, he said that I should put some reverb on that line, so that's what I did. Fran Healy there. I'm very grateful to Fran and the rest of the band and to Samantha Scott for all her help organizing things that day. Much appreciated.

As I said, I have put a spotify compilation of some of my favorite travis tracks and i've kind of stayed away on the whole from the really big ones in an effort to take a more offbeat route into their music the thing about travis is that you've got, as well as the big anthems, you've got a lot of really lovely, engaging, arty pop songs in there, which is kind of my favourite music. And, you know, my friend Dougie from the band has very similar taste to mine. Lots of Bowie and arty pop Pop and you can hear that in some of Travis's stuff so anyway link in the description of the podcast to that Spotify playlist

I hope you check it out and enjoy it and maybe discover a few things that you weren't aware of before so how's things podcats hope you're doing alright oh wow a bat hello bat

flitting around probably shitting and pissing on my head Hope you're doing all right. Oh, wow, a bat. Hello, bat. Flitting around, probably shitting and pissing on my head. There's a couple of bats, actually probably more than a couple, that live in the barn where I work. And in the big barn, in the main area, is where I've got various musical instruments set up. Whoa, there's so many bats out here. There's about 10 or something flitting around. I'm walking down in the gloaming and walking next to some trees and bushes and all the bats are just coming out and flitting.

just coming out and flitting but yeah in the barn this is the time of year actually it's coming towards the time of year where they go back to sleep again i think but for the last couple of months they've been partying every night which means every day i have to hoover up all their bat turds and wipe away the wee-wee, bat wee. The bat wee is actually potentially corrosive to metal. So I've got to cover up all the symbols and things like that. Beautiful bats. Anyway. Whoa! Big pheasant just flew out of the undergrowth i was in mental bat mode though so i thought it was a bat and i was just thinking fucking hell that's a big bat that's exciting though this is why rosie

likes this time of night it is i reckon we've got about ten more minutes of visibility left before we are plunged into total darkness. Rosie! Come on, we should head back. Totally ignoring me. Anyway, look, podcasts. Before I go today,

I just wanted to give a plug for a thing. I don't know the people involved, but it looked like a good thing. Portraits for NHS heroes. Earlier in the year, during the first lockdown, everyone was celebrating the frontline workers and the NHS doctors and nurses and clapping every evening and all that kind of thing. But now it seems with the second lockdown,

everybody's a little more pissed off and it's more controversial and more political. And perhaps some of the focus has come off the people who are still working so hard in the NHS, even though, of course, the lockdown is really all about the NHS in some ways. But of course, this year has just reminded us of what we should have known all along, which was, and what we did know all along, which was how important these people are and how grateful we are to them. And so this NHS Portraits for Heroes book

has been put together in that spirit. Here's the blurb. At the start of the lockdown, artist Tom Croft decided to pay tribute to our amazing NHS workers by painting a portrait of NHS nurse Harriet Durkin for free and encouraged other artists to do the same. You can see over 13,000 of these submissions on Instagram with hashtag portraits for NHS heroes but they have also now been compiled into a book with Bloomsbury Publishing. It's coming out on the 12th of November and the royalties go to NHS charities. and the royalties go to NHS Charities. They were kind enough to send me a copy,

and the portraits are really fantastic. It's not like kind of amateur scribbles. I think these are all professional portrait artists, or many of them are anyway, and there's just an incredible wealth of talent and different styles of art going on. Really brilliant portraits of these people in all kinds of different states. Some with their masks on and their surgical gowns on. Some of them in various emotional states.

It's really a beautiful thing. At the very least, a good way to remember this year and and so much of what it was all about link in the description of the podcast that's it for this week thank you very much indeed once again to fran and to seamus murphy mitchell for production support to matt lamont for conversation editing, and to Helen Green for podcast artwork. Thanks to ACAST for their continued hard work and support. But most especially, thank you very much to you for listening to another episode.

I hope you enjoyed it, and I hope you're doing all right out there. Until next time, for goodness sake, take care. And if there isn't any available, just nick someone else's. No, don't do that. Have some of mine in audio hug form. Oh, look, fireworks. And don't forget, I love you.

Bye! Bye. Thank you.