THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.140 - CANDICE CARTY-WILLIAMS

Episode Date: November 14, 2020

Adam talks with Jamaican British writer Candice Carty-Williams about writing, religion, astrology, the pain of needing a pee, her podcast scepticism and daily routines with particular reference to those of computer scientist and podcaster Lex Fridman.Recorded remotely on November 6th, 2020.Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production support and to Matt Lamont for conversation editing. Podcast artwork by Helen Green https://helengreenillustration.com/RELATED LINKSCHORTLE COMEDY BOOK FESTIVAL - SUNDAY 15TH NOVEMBER, 9PMA DRINK WITH THE IDLER - THURSDAY 3RD DECEMBER, 6PMSTEWART LEE HAS A DRINK WITH THE IDLER (2020, FACEBOOK)CANDICE CARTY-WILLIAMS - QUEENIE (2019, WATERSTONES)QUEENIE REVIEW (2019, GUARDIAN WEBSITE)TAYARI JONES - AN AMERICAN MARRIAGE (2019, WATERSTONES WEBSITE)A DAY IN MY LIFE - LEX FRIDMAN (2020, YOUTUBE)LEX FRIDMAN PODCAST (PODCAST WEBSITE)NOISE GENERATOR APP (APPLE APP STORE)NOISE GENERATOR APP (FOR WINDOWS)A free app that generates brown noise (and other frequencies) that can help with concentration, relaxation and sleep. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You up for a walk, Rose? You have to say yes. She's looking at me like, stop being a dick, will you? Just, let's go for a walk. I love you. Come on then, Black Fox. It's not very nice out there.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin. Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening. I took my microphone and found some human folk. Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke. My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man. I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan. Hey, how you doing, podcats? Adam Buxton here. Erg.

It's rather a unpleasant day out here in the Norfolk countryside weather wise I'm talking apart from that I can't complain it is the middle of November 2020

the middle of November how did that happen I'm walking past a big Christmas tree field at the moment The middle of November? How did that happen? I'm walking past a big Christmas tree field at the moment, near where we live. And the Christmas trees, the grown-up Christmas trees, are in the process of being killed and bagged up as part of the many macabre rituals of the Christmas tide. Anyway, my daughter's excited about Christmas still, so that's good. I'm excited about it too, I think.

My wife came back from the shop yesterday with the first box of mince pies of the year and that for me is really the beginning of christmas but it doesn't feel very christmassy today it just feels damp autumnal just in the last week a lot of the leaves have flopped off the trees out here and now i'm looking at big muddy puddles everywhere. Anyway, look, enough of this aimless waffling. Let's get to some other aimless waffling with my guest for podcast number 140, the Jamaican British writer Candice Carty-Williams. Candice facts. Candice, currently aged 30, worked in publishing for most of her 20s. In 2016, noting a lack of diversity in the publishing world, she created and launched the Guardian and Fourth Estate BAME Short Story Prize, which aims to find, champion, and celebrate black, Asian, and minority ethnic writers. By and by, Candice resolved to write a novel of her own.

Winning a place on a writing retreat kick-started the process, and in 2019, her debut novel Queenie was published, and went on to become a bestseller and win a raft of awards. A giant raft. The book's protagonist is Queenie Jenkins, a 25-year-old Jamaican-British woman living in London and navigating micro and macro aggressions from some of her white middle-class peers

at the Metro-style newspaper where she works. Meanwhile, following the break-up of a long-term relationship, Queenie embarks on a series of variously ill-advised liaisons with rubbish men. Not waste disposal men, you understand. Just men who are rubbish. Queenie is... Oh, this is me summing up what Queenie is. I don't know if Candice would agree with this, but I'm going with...

Queenie is a meditation on conflicted racial identity, modern womanhood, family trauma, and the mental health struggles that may accompany those things. Now I'm like an amazing literary critic. Queenie is also frequently funny and well-observed. Plans are underway to turn it into a comedy drama for Channel 4 in the UK sometime in 2021. I spoke to Candice via Zoom earlier this month, November 2020, just to make it abundantly clear. I love to make time abundantly clear. And as well as talking about why Candice is suspicious of podcasts, astrology, and possible ways to make religion more attractive to children. That's quite blasphemous, that section. I apologize, God. We compared notes on the pain

of needing a wee, which gave me an excuse to tell my Nevermind the Buzzcocks toilet story again. Maybe I haven't told that on the podcast before. It's an amazing story, though surprisingly plans are not underway to turn it into a comedy drama for Channel 4. We also talked about daily routines, with particular reference to the computer scientist and podcaster Lex Fridman, whose average day outlined in a YouTube video that I watched, link in the description, made me feel a tiny bit of a waster. See how you get on comparing your regular routine to that of Lex Fridman. Back at the end with news of a couple of upcoming online events, but right now with Candice Carty-Williams. Here we go. Let's have a ramble chat We'll focus first on this Then concentrate on that

Come on, let's chew the fat And have a ramble chat Put on your conversation coat And find your talking hat La, la, la, la, la, la La, la, la, la, la, la La, la, la, la, la, la now am i saying your name right because i said i was talking about you and i said candice and someone said no it's candice. Ah that's right yeah it's

rhymed with geese is what I always say which is that's what I've chosen. Fleece that would be my go-to rhyme because I wear one all the time. It's cold Adam so am I pronouncing your name right? No it's pronounced Ashwan. And I get very upset if people mispronounce it. I'm sorry. All right. So I am looking at you, Candice, and you are in what looks like a bedroom. Yes.

And it's pretty great because in the background, out of the window where you are, I can see a tube train that's just run past. was so cool it was it's like a special effect it's nice isn't it i live in south london though so obviously it's not a tube it's just the one right train because obviously our options here are limited yes that's right i've been out of london for so long i forgot that tubes are generally underground yeah and not in South London. Whereabouts in Brixton are you? So I'm just behind Brixton I'm in Hanhill. Ah I used to live I was on Brixton Hill. Oh okay. I actually had quite a nice flat there because it was when I was had my first TV job. Right. And so I got the production company to give me a budget for looking for a slightly larger flat than I would normally have done.

And we ended up filming a lot of stuff there, me and Joe. Did they actually do that? That's incredible. Yeah, it was good. Do you miss it? Do you miss Brixton? I liked Brixton. Yeah, I thought it was pretty nice. I mean, this is when, what are we talking about here? We started making our show in 1996. But 1994, I started working at world of wonder and that was

the first time that i'd spent a lot of time in brixton and i yeah i liked it amazing i was living in clapham at the time and those areas were yet to become fully gentrified you know they were definitely on the turn clapham especially Clapham was fully turned Clapham turned a long time ago yeah where did you grow up I grew up in Streatham which is I don't think ever going to turn but I loved it I grew up in Streatham I lived in a big house with my mum and my grandparents and some people who lived in the flat downstairs i really liked it a lot and then i moved around south london so i've lived in like i think i was counting the other day like 15 houses in south london how come you moved so often uh just because like family and drama and all of that

stuff was that the kind of dramas that informed queenie? So no, actually, Queenie's actually, her life is way more dramatic than mine. I couldn't deal with any of the stuff that she deals with, I don't think. So who was your inspiration? I mean, that's probably a question you've been asked a lot. Obviously, you're a writer, you have an imagination. That's part of the job. You imagine your characters. Yeah. But for someone like me, I'm very literal. My imagination can be quite stunted. And so when I've written stuff in the past, I did a TV thing a while back. And for conjuring characters there, I just had to think of people that I'd met. And then I kind of extrapolated from there. How did you do it? Yeah, that makes sense. I have that with names. And then I kind of extrapolated from there. How did you do

it? Yeah, that makes sense. I have that with names. But when I'm writing different people's names, I panic because all the names I can think of are people that I know. And I'm like, you can't put their name in something. So I end up being like, what? Who's on my bookshelf? And so loads of characters are named by authors that I can see immediately in front of me. But the inspiration for her was like an idea of someone who was similar to me, but would deal with things in a very different way, if that makes sense.

And then all of the characters, like her friends, her friends are kind of loosely based on some people that I knew, but like amalgamations of them. But one of her friends, Chesca, is based literally on my friend Isabel. But I did ask her permission, if that okay including the way she speaks because she has a very particular way of speaking and lots of very well observed little yeah she does turns of phrase she does but apart from that that was that and then the men were all just kind of men that I sort of had heard about or had maybe known but no one who was like word for word because I don't

want to get sued and I heard you saying that you gave the men in the book short names in fact three letter names exactly as an indication that they were sort of side players this was a book mainly about the experiences of women yeah no one realized that for a really long time, but that was like a very specific thing. So I went in first with knowing everyone's star signs and then I did like character building as I went along, but the name thing was a very specific thing. We have a friend in common, Jo, that is. Do you work with Jo or is she your editor?

So Jo is my agent, but also like my friend and the person that I cry on and sort of everything. Do you know what I mean? She's great. I love Jo. And she was telling me, though, that you are very serious about your astrology and your star signs. Yeah. When did that begin for you? So that was a few years ago my mum has always been the sort of person to be like well you're a cancer so it means this and i'd be like okay whatever but then i got older and a lot of stuff that she was saying about

like my dad who's a sagittarius like my nan who's a capricorn all that stuff just made more sense and so i was like oh let me get into this let look into this. And then it has just been a very helpful framework for understanding people. You're a Gemini. That's right. I am. How do you feel about that? Sorry, because there's some strong Gemini man slander in the book, isn't there? I grew up understanding that Geminis were generally negatively viewed. Yes. I don't know much about astrology, but I do know that they are or they can be two-faced and sneaky. Is this right?

I don't agree with that. I think that, should I get into it just very quickly? Sure. I think with a Gemini, because my mum mom's a gemini she's like a fairy and i think most gemini's are quite fairy like like not quite in this realm like i want them to be a bit more serious i'm like a hairy fairy um but i don't subscribe to the two-faced thing i think sometimes gemini's operate in one way with one personality and then they can do quite a bad thing but they tend to excuse it because they're like no i'm personality a so i think it's that i just don't

think they realize how nasty they can be but not necessarily like bitchy or two-faced and like saying one thing to face and something else to someone else i don't think that's it yeah yeah don't realize how nasty you can be. Yeah, that could be true in certain circumstances, I think. What's your take on why astrology works, if there is something to it? What is the logic of it? Do you think about that? I don't know if there needs to be logic of it. But the only reason that I subscribe to it so heavily is because so many people fit with what their star signs are and I know so many people who are similar star signs that are quite similar and actually I did

a thing the other day I did this um Prada advert and I was in Milan with some amazing people and I spent so much time correctly guessing their star signs okay so it's got to work if I know do you know what i mean yeah yeah oh what's the prada advert can you tell me about that i can't now actually because it's been announced it's the christmas advert so it's kind of like a noir kind of thing i don't know like a noir thing what were you doing in it i wrote it so i just had to go there and try and make that work try and get it off the page into the screen that's kind of a glamorous gig isn't it do you know what it was really glamorous the only thing that made it less glam was the fact that we all had to have like masks on yeah and there were covid marshals who

were like get your mask back on properly and so we're only allowed to like take it off to have like a little drink or to have a snack presumably though can this you had like a fabulous prada mask yes i didn't i had loads of like cheap black ones and i had to keep asking the covid marshals for more i know there was actually very minimal glamour when i was on that what about schwag in what way are you going home with like a big basket of great prada freebies i like absolutely nothing what like there was so much of it as well there was like a massive because it was filmed in this villa and there was this like the garage had been taken over by just like prada as far as the eye could see and i think i hinted a couple of times like oh that's really nice and they were like yeah it is isn't it and I was like all right all right cool but you know they really

I don't have any designer stuff yeah like my older cousin I grew up watching her be really like into designer stuff and I was like yeah my thing is just like books I guess and like tv so like that's you have that over there so this is young Candice growing up in south London yeah in a sort of close-knit but fairly dramatic slash stressful family environment is that fair kind of it was more like lots and lots of stuff was going on all the time and lots of arguments but not my big ones but my mum has four sisters and they're all like very dramatic and so I just grew up having to like witness loads of arguments and fallings out all the time and be like what's going on here like aren't you meant to like each other but it was like really mad so there's lots of that and so I would escape by reading books all the time.

And what kind of books and tv were you consuming as a youngster? My go-to books were Adrian Moll's Diaries. Oh, yeah. So, like, those got me through a lot. Sue Townsend was amazing. And also Louise Rennison, who's another amazing author, who's also passed away, my gosh. She wrote this series about a girl called georgia nicholson

and those always got me through a lot of stuff and then like c.s lewis and like all that narnia stuff before i realized it was like very biblical so it was that and i think i read like the same i'd had like a very limited library in my house because my nan read loads of like katherine cookson and virginia andrews so I remember reading Flowers in the Attic like 30 times just because we didn't have a lot of books and that was before I discovered libraries and then TV I used to watch a lot of catchphrase and a lot of keeping up appearances so I basically have like the young understandings of like an old woman because I used to just like consume what my nan did and watch what my nan did. When did you become aware that the Narnia books

had their roots in biblical stories? I think I think a family member would have said like oh you know they're all religious and I was like what because religion is like a very weird thing in my family not a very weird thing it's just weird thing in my family. Well, not a very weird thing. It's just a thing in my family. So I was raised Roman Catholic. So I had to do like confirmations and all that stuff where you wear that dress and you get the body of Christ. I don't know if I had the wine though. I always want.

I was so jealous of that because I was never really very religious. But I would see people taking communion and I just thought, oh, I'd love a nibble of the body of Christ. But I remember being like really hyping myself up for it and being really aware of what was about to happen and thinking it was going to be like some sort of like proper experience where I would like feel markedly different when I'd had this piece of like wafer. And I remember asking the priest after I had it because they put it on your tongue which is really fucking weird like you know it's just like you'll put with your hand you're putting on this child's tongue a piece of rice paper or whatever it is slice of Jesus oh but I remember being like what happens now and they were like that's it my child and I remember being like I feel really short-changed and then after that I was like no this is a scam nothing happened presumably it doesn't taste of much it tastes of nothing I don't suppose they have flavoured

Christ do they I mean you can't get chilli flavoured chilli flavoured Christ that's what I'd go for like just a bit of dusting you think that if Christ were a flavour it would be chilli well you would be able to pick surely yeah if they want to get people back in churches, then that's the way they've got to go. Salt and vinegar Christ, chili flavored Christ. My dad would find this very, very, he'd be shaking his head. Yeah. But yeah, after that, I remember because it had been so inflated in my mind and I was expecting so many massive things to happen and then when it didn't I think maybe that's when my trust in religion went away because I think I

thought like very sort of fantastically but also very literally when I was younger it's very hard to communicate to a child what is valuable about religion because I can see that religion is valuable to people and that they do get so much comfort from it in certain circumstances. You know what I mean? And I think that there are very valuable aspects to it. But good luck sort of communicating that to the average child, the value of it. You know what I mean? For them, for people like me when I was little, all it represents is total boredom total waste of time yeah not tasty

body of Christ and I'd rather be watching tv you know than sitting in a cold church and having to dress up and like do pictures and stuff I just yeah I didn't understand it but I could see from my family that it was like a big deal so I didn't kick up that much of a fuss right and they didn't give you a hard time for not being more into it uh no they do they still do like my nan is always like well if you just prayed a little bit and i'm always like mate it's not gonna happen so yeah that was i think when i was like okay atheism is probably for me not knowing what that term was but i very respectful of people's faiths you know yes exactly you know i mean your belief in astrology could be characterized as a form of faith couldn't it do you know what that is why

and how i got joe off my back because she kept being like it's bullshit it's rubbish and i was like would you say that someone who's religious joe uh-huh she was like oh well maybe i wouldn't and i was like right let's not speak of it again then. Yeah. Candice, I'm sorry. I just drank like three cups of tea in quick succession before I talked to you. And now I have to go to the toilet. Go for it. Go, go, go.

I'm going to be right back. I apologize. This is very unprofessional. No, it's okay. Take your time. You can slag me off or just do some singing while I'm gone. I hear you're a good singer. So you could. I will never, ever do that ever. All right. I hear you're a good singer so you could... I will never ever do that

ever. Alright, I'll be right back. And I'm doing it by accident. It's beepy time beepy wee wee It's Beepy Dan Ah Relief Lovely

Relief Beepy wee wee I'm back. Excellent. I just feel relieved. Yeah, I feel great. It's the worst feeling. It really is. It is the worst feeling.

It's horrible. Like, I actually get quite shaky. I'm sweat weird. If you need to look. Like, it's so horrible. Yeah. Have you ever been in a situation where you can't go and it's becoming an emergency? No, but I think I trick myself into thinking it's going to be even worse than it is.

Do you know what I mean? So like when I was in meetings, I'd always be like, oh my God. And I was like convinced I was going to wet myself. But like I never have as an adult. So that's good. I've got so many traumatic wee wee memories. Why though? Because of times when I just needed to go and i was embarrassed because

i'd probably just gone about 10 minutes before and i didn't want people to think i was a little peepee freak and i didn't want to cause a fuss and i didn't want people to be looking at me you know what i mean yeah so interesting so that overthinking is really interesting yeah just because of we just because of we. Just because of we. Yeah. But I think the idea that people knew, there's something embarrassing about people knowing that you need a we. Do you think that?

I guess I must do. Otherwise, why would it be a problem? But like, do you think people actually would leave that situation and be like, gosh, Adam really needed a wee didn't he and then I had another one though when I did Nevermind the Buzzcocks years ago it was when Mark Lamar was the host and I was on Phil Jupiter's team and they used to give you maybe they still do they ply you with booze, right? To make you more fun, because booze equals fun.

Of course. So I drank about three or four bottles of beer before we even started taping. And surprise, surprise, I needed to do a wee. Yeah. And they taped for about three hours sometimes, those shows, a long time. And so I lasted as long as i could i was about an hour in and then eventually i just couldn't take it anymore and i just raised my hand thinking i'll make a joke out of this because you know there's an audience there and everything i raised my hand and i said excuse me sir to mark lamar can i be excused please everything went silent and the

audience like i was hoping that the audience would laugh, but they didn't laugh. They didn't. Oh, God. And Mark Lamar was like, what? And I was like, I need a wee. He's like, well, you should have thought of that before we started taping. We're doing this as live, whatever that means. And so I was like, oh, OK. And we just had to carry on. Oh, seriously? Yeah, we had to carry on, but for only about 15 minutes or so. And then eventually I hadn't said a single thing. And I was about to he could see I was about to raise my hand again because I was like, this is a nightmare. What's going on here?

I don't think he liked me very much. And then he said, go on then, but be quick. It was like I was being told off. Oh, it was awful. And as I got up, I kicked over a couple of empty beer bottles and they clattered very loudly on the concrete floor of the studio and everything was quiet and the audience were quiet and i crept out and i went to the loo and when i was in the loo i just thought fuck this i'm not gonna go back in did you though yeah i did because i thought it through i thought

it would be great i'd love to run away right now and never do anything like this again but my agent would be embarrassed that's it isn't it it's a contractual thing with most things yeah have you ever had anything like that luckily no because i'm the sort of person i don't like public toilets so i'll get on a plane i've been to la maybe three times and I haven't used the toilet once. Whoa. Yeah, exactly. That's eight and a half hours. No, that's 11 hours, isn't it?

It's 11 hours. Yeah, yeah. Because I'm just like, no, it's not happening. I just tell my bladder, my brain, like, we're not doing it. So then it's fine. I'm actually, that's like one of my,

I wouldn't say it's a skill because it's probably quite unhealthy. But yeah, so I can't furnish it with any stories like that because I just have sort of bladder of steel. That is very impressive. And are you stopping yourself from drinking and eating before the flight in order to reduce the likelihood of you needing to go? I just don't have tea and I don't really drink alcohol. So it's fine. Top tips.

And I don't really drink alcohol, so it's fine. Top tips. How about then just moments like the one I had in the loo where I just thought, fuck this, I'm going to just run away. Not necessarily toilet based, but just moments where you feel out of your depth professionally. Do you know what? No, because. Well, do you know what? Actually, when I worked in publishing, I was often, if not always, the only black person and the only black woman in the room. And so there was always so much going through my head all the time. I was always just like having to do things I was like now you kind of deserve to be here you know because you've gone through a lot so there was a lot of those

situations to me felt always very hostile because when you look around a room and no one looks like you it's a very alarming thing there's a lot of stuff happening in your subconscious I guess. How did you come to be in that position because that is similar to Queenie in the book isn't it that she is in this environment where she is often the only person that looks like her and she's working with a lot of white people she's going out with a lot of white guys and that's something that I noticed people picking up on like I watched a few people doing vlogs on YouTube about the book. I don't know if you've delved into that world. No, I have not. I haven't. Wow. Holy Moses. I mean, it gave me the chills just thinking, oh my God, maybe someone's done something similar

with my book, but I certainly wouldn't seek it out. I noticed though that people have a tendency, though that people have a tendency especially with fiction to be quite literal minded again you know yeah to review the book based on how they felt about the central character so people were almost reviewing queenie as a person yeah and judging her quite harshly a lot very harshly on her choices yeah i've seen this a lot and i've been like people have come up to me on the tube and been like why does she only date white guys and i'm like she's not i can't text her and ask her she's a character that i've made and there's obviously reasons but people do respond to her like she's a real person and so yeah there is there is a lot of that but i really enjoy it because i said like conflict is or chaos are not new things to me.

So I'm like, oh, OK. Like, if that's happening over there, I'm just over here. It's fine. There is a reason internally why she only dates white guys in that book. It's all sort of laid out for you. This is part of a person who's in turmoil in all sorts of ways and ends up she's on a mission to figure out a load of things about herself. And she is enacting all kinds of neuroses. And that's informing a lot of her behavior and her hookups with unsuitable men and things like that. So it's all in there. But people I got the impression because it's a book about a young black woman that comes with a load of responsibility in their minds you know it's like well there's not too many of these books out there so you better portray a young black woman in a way that we can get behind did you feel that responsibility i didn't because

it's not my job to do that my job is to write the story that I want to write you know the problem is that there isn't enough of that fiction around and so when you are one of the first to do it I guess I was one of the first to do it in the time that I did it I know I'm not the first black woman to write about black woman but when you do people are asking for these characters to almost be perfect or to do what they would do and it's like you write it then you write one I'll read it it's great and that's kind of why I don't ever feel I actually don't ever feel offended by critique of the book because I did one piece of work that I've done I can't serve everyone you know yeah and also it was not the opinion of everybody I mean the book's done

amazingly well congratulations Congratulations on it. Thank you. And I read a comment from someone who said, I think what I liked most is that the character of Queenie was flawed and not just prim and perfect. Someone who never made bad decisions. It made it realistic. I think it also plays into the choices that people tend to make when they're struggling with mental health issues like she was, including depression and wanting something despite how toxic it may be. That's a nice comment. Yeah. Thanks to whoever said that. No, it's true. And that is what I set out to do with her. She was never going to be perfect because I'm not perfect. I don't have perfect friends. I don't know anyone who makes all the right decisions all the time or even half the time. who makes all the right decisions all the time or even half the time yeah and I was asking you before like how did you find yourself in that professional environment that was similar to Queenie's where you're feeling like you're the only person that looks like you and feels like you

it was really hard I did find it really hard and I didn't realize I'm 31 now and I think I got any professional confidence when I was like 28 29 and that's when I was like leaving my job and maybe that's because I'd written a book that had been well received so I understood that professionally I had some value in myself but I never felt that when I was in an office space I think that's just what happens when you feel so lonely because you know you can have people around you who are like-minded but unless there's someone around you who actually knows what it's like to inhabit the skin you're in it just can't be the same it's impossible and I'm quite a shy person generally so I found meetings really hard I found saying anything really hard and I would have to gear myself up

to like make a point for like 20 minutes in my head like running it through because I was also like if you make a mistake you're so different to everyone that they're going to remember that and so it was yeah it was like really it was work on top of work you know and I'd be fucking exhausted was that your dream job you worked in publishing right so I worked in publishing so I had worked when I finished university I did some work I did work experience so the guardian and then I started like subbing there which was fun I had a really nice time there it was really chill and then I was like yeah but you do want to work in books because I'd wanted to be a librarian like that was my number one job I just wanted to be around the things that had saved me when I was younger and so when I realized that you could

actually work in books a friend's girlfriend had started working in publishing and I saw it on Facebook and I was like wait what and I hadn't understood I just hadn't understood that there had been that job at all I'd never been exposed to it in the way that I was realizing that my exposure when I was growing up to like music like so like recitals so I guess like live music plays all of that stuff I was introduced to that through like the parents of my or the middle class parents of my middle class friends because my mum had no she didn't care at all and so the same with books and like the making of books I just never crossed my mind but then I did a work experience like in this girl's house in Brixton for like two days a week and then through

that I did another work experience another work experience and then I got a job in publishing and I loved it the first one I loved it so much I take out the bins every Monday evenings for collection early on Tuesday morning except for holidays one week it's recycling The next week it is stinky bin. If you miss the stinky bin collection, it will be sat there for a fortnight going shit. Now, I wanted to ask you about your daily routine. I've been thinking about this a lot because the other day I watched a YouTube video by a guy who has a podcast that I sometimes listen to. And he outlined hour by hour what he does every day. And it made

me feel very insecure. Don't remind one. Okay, so I'm going to take you through his routine. And as we do, you can tell me yours. Right. So we can compare our routines. OK, OK. And I'll chip in with a few of my things as well. So this is the routine of a guy called Lex Fridman. And he is an American. He's a research scientist who works at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MIT. And he's an AI expert working on human-centered AI, autonomous vehicles, deep learning, computer vision. He's clearly a very clever guy. He's 34 years old at the moment. And he's got a podcast where he talks to a lot of other tech people and talks about the meaning of life and computers and it's pretty good and he's got kind of an interesting voice he's got a very laid-back way of kind of talking

and uh you know he's clearly a very clever guy but incredibly driven and focused and he talks about his daily routine and so the way he starts his day is he reckons six to eight hours of sleep. So pretty normal amount of sleep. How long are you sleeping, Candice? So when I don't have insomnia, nine hours. That's good. Yeah. And do you suffer from insomnia fairly regularly?

No. It's when I'm writing. When I'm like acutely stressed, then I'll go to bed. I mean, my sleeping hours are a bit fucked anyway. I sleep from about 3, 4 a.m. till about 11, midday. Whoa. How come you're going to sleep so late? I've just always been like that. Like since I was a kid, I've always been a night owl.

And I've tried desperately throughout my life to change it. I'm just like, I just hate it. My brain is just wired for the night time. Do you find that very distressing? Sometimes not being able to sleep and those hours between three or five until the sun comes up they can be pretty maddening when i had a full time job it was horrible because i'd be like you have to get up and go to work yeah but now that i work from home and also with everything that's happening i'm just like well it's what it is isn't it have you got any techniques for coping no basically well i guess it is what it is, isn't it? Have you got any techniques for coping? No, basically, well, I guess it is a technique.

I just get up and just do what I would normally do rather than sit and blink at the ceiling. I get up and I put away washing. Do you know what I mean? Just like potter around and tidy up. And then at a point I'll be like, okay, maybe you're tired again. That's the only thing that's helped me.

Because I don't take sleeping pills or any medicine at all, actually. at a point I'd be like, okay, maybe you're tired again. That's the only thing that's helped me. Because I don't take sleeping pills or any medicine at all, actually. So that's all I can do. Yeah. Chores. Chores, always good. Boring choring. Then, once Lex Fridman has woken up, and by the way, I'd like to make it clear that I'm not implying that I think Lex Fridman or his routine are ridiculous. He's kind of an extraordinary guy. I'm just sort of when I compare my own routine to his, I just feel like that's quite intimidating. So once he's up, he has got a mantra. And I don't know what he means by mantra, because when I hear mantra, I think of chanting. He's not actually chanting.

It's just a series of kind of mental routines that he goes through every morning, which is broken down into about six parts. Okay. So once Lex is up, mantra part one reminds himself of his current set of rules and the potential addictions in his life that need attention, including social media. Keep that under control. Only checks social media when he posts once or twice a day for no more than 10 minutes. The hardest thing to do is moderate the use of social media because when you use it in moderation, it can bring you joy when you connect with other people says lex right i

agree with that then lex this is still lex thinking about his day exercise he's got to get mentally prepared for the fact that he's going to do at least an hour of exercise every day if he's injured he finds a part of his body that isn't injured and exercises that right fucking hell he's thinking about the he's preparing himself for the exercise are you working out every day candies not every day jesus no i do yoga uh-huh five days out of seven and then i might do a workout i work out for like an hour in the house obviously just because that's good for you, isn't it? Sure. And I have to get ready for it because I hate it.

It's long. How do you motivate yourself? I generally think about how great I'll feel afterwards. That's it. Like I'm like afterwards, you don't have to do anything for another day. Yeah. And that's it. But also music.

So all of that stuff. And also it is really nice. It was really nice it was really nice in summer i liked it more in summer but now it's cold you don't want to go to bed i don't want to go to bed what for yeah exactly so we're with lex friedman doing his mantra in the morning right yeah other parts of lex's mental mantra he meditates on the notion that this might be the day he might die and he reminds himself that life is amazing and quote it's freaking amazing to be alive so that's good isn't it that's positive i actually

do that very often you do yeah when i wake up i'm like yeah you're here and that's really good because a lot of people aren't and i think it's important to remember that so i do do that am i him he and i sound pretty similar let's see how it goes. Okay. Lex lists his goals. He's got three sets of goal listing that he does in the morning in his mind. Okay, we're not similar. Part one, he lists his goals out loud for the next five years. Then he lists his goals for the rest of the year, and he likes to keep them just out of reach,

i.e. he's really going to have to work very hard to achieve them, but they're just about achievable. Then he visualizes going them just out of reach, i.e. he's really going to have to work very hard to achieve them. But they're just about achievable. Then he visualizes going through the rest of the day and all the goals he has just for the rest of the day. No, me and him are not. When I wake up, I'm like, what are we doing today? How can we do as little as possible today? What can we watch? That's like my main thing.

I don't have any life goals i genuinely have never had any life goals at all i'm just like let's get through it yeah just stay a day at a time one foot in front of the other wait what star sign is this guy hmm let me find out august 15th a leo what does that mean uh leos are very they're the kings of the jungle, aren't they? They know what they want and they're going to get it as a Leo. So he's kind of an alpha. Yeah. Fire sign. He's interesting, actually, because he definitely has a lot of alpha qualities, but he does have this quite laid back, almost hippie she talks about love a lot and the importance of compassion and things like that so it's quite a nice juxtaposition of alpha and something softer i'd have to look at his whole birth chart okay okay so i don't do any of that also what time does he wake up sorry he doesn't say he says the morning so he's up at night seven seven or eight that's oh god yeah no yeah because he's packing a lot in check this out he's got three sessions of work that he

does at his desk in the day two of them are four hours long he calls them deep work sessions but anyway i'm getting ahead of myself after the the mantra in the morning, when he's figured out he's grateful and he's figured out what his goals are, then it's toilet break time. He has a great time in the toilet. Then he drinks a liter of water, has some coffee, and then he's into deep work session number one, four hours, him focusing on a single job, interruptions if another idea occurs to lex he puts it on a google doc comes back to it later how do you deal with distractions when you're writing how do you stop yourself just going off and doing other stuff i don't i just do what i want like i literally i have so little discipline when it comes to work that it's amazing that I actually get anything done but it's more that I

work fast so I can sit and be like you're gonna write 10,000 words in this sitting and I'll do that shit yeah and I'll forget I'll realize at the end like oh you feel really weird you've got like a headache you feel quite sick it's because I haven't eaten I've even remembered so it's not that I'm disciplined in any way I just fall into this world of what i'm doing and then i'm like oh yeah there's like food and like water and stuff that you should be engaging in unless you're fasting which is what lex does oh my god lex only has one meal a day one yep does he have i bet he doesn't snack well no i don't think he does snack i think you're right i think if he's gonna have a snack it'll be something like a salt pill yeah or it'll be like he'll drink something green from what does he eat does he say yeah when

he does eat 1500 calorie meal that serves all of my nutritional needs. Like, is he that guy? Yeah, I think he is that guy. Oh, for fuck's sake. Why? So he's having, he'll fast. Often he finds himself working. He hasn't eaten for 16 hours.

He's drinking water and taking his sodium tablets. He's on the keto diet. He's drinking water and taking his sodium tablets. He's on the keto diet. So generally, sometimes Lex will have maybe two pounds of ground beef and won't use any oil and have some cauliflower. He doesn't like broccoli. When he really wants to go crazy, he turns to carrots. Carrots are his party vegetable.

I really like broccoli. He's really like what fun. OK, you'll get to the fun i'm sure yeah oh yeah i think he does have some fun snack stuff what about you what's your go-to snack are you allowed snacks in the day if you're writing at home yeah if i remember so in terms of i like i like cashew nuts let's say cashew nuts, let's say. Cashews. Cashew nuts. They're my favourite nut. I like those ones. Cashew nuts with midnight raisins. What's that? From M&S. Those bags of nuts.

It's fancy. Oh, mate. Sesame snaps. Do you ever have them? My mum at Warsaw Gemini, she introduced me to them a long time ago. They're nice, but they do get stuck in your teeth. The little seeds. It's annoying.

It's annoying, but I don't mind stuff that gets stuck in your teeth that much because then it's more fun for later. You reckon? Just like find one sesame seed and you're like, ah, I won't need to have anything now. Ah, that takes me back to those good times. I like, do you ever get those biscuits, Choco Leibniz or Leibniz? Yeah, do you like the orange ones?

I like the orange ones. I only recently discovered the orange ones. I only recently discovered the orange ones. Yeah, they're nice, isn't it? Whoa. It's a game changer. But how do you eat it? Wow.

How do you eat yours, Candice? I bite all the chocolate off the sides. Yes. And then I scrape the top off with my teeth. Oh, wow. You're scraping. Yeah, yeah. And then there's just the biscuit left. And that's the trumpet.

Have you ever with your tongue cleaned off the biscuit entirely before you consume it? No, no. Because by that point, I'm like, let's get in. Like, I don't want to do that extra work. Yeah, I've got it in way before that. I just about make it to nibbling off the hard chocolate overhang yeah i mean that is the genius of the leibniz though isn't it is there another biscuit that has that because it's a good overhang you can definitely go right round occasionally they've put them in slightly the wrong position and there's not much of an overhang on one side yeah yeah yeah but then there'll be a larger overhang on the opposite side.

On the other side. That's the payoff. That makes up for it. I've got some in the cupboard. Oh, they're great. How many are you having in one sitting? Three. Three.

How about you? Yeah, three. But then every now and again, it'll go to four. Yeah. And then you'll go back later that day. That's what I do. I love it. I have a sweet tooth.

Yeah, so do I. this is not what lex fridman does by the way oh i know if he hears this he will be turning in whatever grave he's probably already built for himself as part of his plan all right so lex is doing his deep work session, four hours, no interruptions. He's only allowed toilet break or water. He's not, I mean, I generally allow myself toilet breaks, tea breaks, snack breaks, picking up children from bus stop breaks, washing clothes breaks, doing the bins breaks, wank breaks, whatever. I was about to ask if he masturbates.

He doesn't mention it. He does then. You reckon? Yeah, 100%. He's got to release something because it's all in, isn't it? Yeah. I haven't heard a woman talking about that syndrome when they're working from home and they're writing.

Is that a problem for women the way that it is for men? Not for me personally but i can't speak for everyone i didn't even know that was a thing for a thing for men well maybe it's not a thing for all men but it's frequently a challenge or at least it has been in my life can't even imagine it that's not where my head is no i mean it's generally not i mean i'm sounding like an absolute out of control filthy monkey boy but um it's not always like that yeah i can't speak of that yeah i'm sorry to even bring it up

then after lex's first deep work session he has a 20 minute break for social media or music. So maybe he'll post something on social media, but he definitely will play either the guitar or the piano for 20 minutes. No, I can't play an instrument, but I'm just sort of panicking, wondering if he listens to music while he's working. That suggests he doesn't. No, I don't think so. Do you listen to music while you's working that suggests he doesn't no i don't think so do you listen to music while you're writing constantly all the time i listen to music like like it's off now because i'm talking to you but it will go on the second we finish and it stays on like all night i just listen to music constantly what kind of music do you listen to while you're writing because i can't do that at all wow grime and uk rap like exclusively like i

need it needs to be as loud and as amped up as possible because i don't drink coffee or anything so that's what gives me my energy wow so after lex's 20 minutes on the guitar or social media it's lexercise time seven mile run, and Lex starts out listening to brown noise. Now, do you know what brown noise is? No. Do I want to? I do want to know. Let's see.

I'm going to play you some brown noise over this speaker. Okay. OK. OK. so it sounds a little bit like a distant roaring river or maybe the ambience of an airplane i quite like that yeah it's really nice i think i would like that for sleeping yeah exactly so it's very good for sleeping it might be a good thing next time you're suffering with insomnia why is it called that? Well, you've got white noise. You've heard of white noise, right? Yeah.

White noise is just sort of in the olden analog days, pre-digital. If your TV wasn't tuned, that was white noise. So that's quite harsh. Right. And then you've got pink noise. I'm not sure exactly what pink noise is. I mean, they're just variations on interference noise. Brown noise is mostly lower frequencies and is supposedly one of the more soothing of the noises.

I see. Oh, speaking of apps, though, I found out I updated my phone the other day. And now I'm looking at it and it's got a translation app on it. That is brilliant. Yeah. What's got a translation app on it. That is brilliant. Yeah. What's it called? It's called.

Oh, I think I know that. It's called Translate. I think I saw that. It just popped up unbidden. I suppose I should be outraged that they didn't ask my permission. Wait, so what happens? So you can just say anything you want in there and it'll translate it. So what, I say something in English.

Oh, and it says it in the other language. Yeah, you choose whatever language you want in there and it'll translate it so what i say something in english oh and it says it in the other language yeah you choose whatever language you want it to translate into oh my gosh okay i'm gonna do that yeah go on okay let me choose the language do you speak portuguese adam no hola qual é o momento can you guess what it is um hello wait a second no hello what is the time oh i know look at that but you can also do you can use the mic and you can speak right into it so i'm gonna say hello i am interested in your point of view and promise to listen to it without judgment in the hope that we can be friends flummoxed it yeah i. You flummoxed it.

Yeah, I did. I flummoxed it. That was too long. I'm going to do another one. Hello. You seem interesting and nice. That's better. Okay, here we go.

We're in business. So, Russian, let's go for. Oh. I mean, that's quite cool, isn't it? Do you think the stresses on the words are right as well? Probs, yeah. I reckon they probably are. Arabic.

Oh, my gosh. Very nice. That's brilliant. That felt like a much longer sentence than your one. Yes. Whereas Japanese tends to be contracted. Let's try Japanese. so the japanese translation of hello you seem interesting and nice is that's about the same nice but that's cool though isn't it i mean i feel that's really cool that is i don't see the downside of that particular bit of technology i

think that is a good step towards human beings understanding each other a little better. And that's, yeah, I agree. That's got to be a good thing. When I go on holiday again, I want to deploy it. Yeah, exactly. One day we'll be on holiday again. So Lex Fridman, meanwhile, is jogging along, listening to Brown Noise for the first three miles. and then he switches to an audio book. At the time that he was recording this account of his daily routine, he was listening to the rise and fall of the Third Reich, because, according to Lex, if you don't study history, you're doomed to repeat it. That's a paraphrased quote generally attributed to the Spanish philosopher Jorge Agustin Nicolas Ruiz de Santayana y Borras, a.k.a. George Santayana or G-San.

Was that you or was that the app? That was really impressive. Thanks. Well, my mum was Chilean, so I've got a little bit of an accent when I want one. Do you listen to audio books?s no I don't listen to anything but music which is um I was actually having a conversation with someone day before yesterday about podcasts I don't like them as much as I would like to but I was saying to her because she asked if I didn't like podcasts in general or like she's like did you not used to

listen to the radio and I was like I actually used to wake up really early for me on a Saturday to listen to the Adam and Jo show oh wow when we were on six music exactly I think it was nine o'clock in the morning that's right until we moved to a slightly later slot and you know what I remember actually there was this you know that weird French train station jingle yeah i remember you guys used to do that and i was like whoa because i'd just been started going to france with like my friend and i was like oh my god anyway so i was like i used to listen to that and then i used to listen to them when they were a podcast but then i think now i just don't like the culture of podcasting and so i just stay away from it i don't like the

way that people it feels like it can be i feel like you're just people are just giving a name to something that's already been there and making it more exclusionary than it needs to be i just don't think it's as accessible as like just common radio used to be i think when you start doing that for me it just put me off do you know what i mean yeah i do know what you mean i think that it is quite an off-putting medium for a lot of people first of all because they can't quite get their head round like what is this exactly i remember thinking when i first heard about podcasts in the mid 2000s i sort of thought well i don't really understand what's the point of it is it this is it? But then when Joe and I started doing one, when we were at XFM, I suddenly realized,

oh, okay, this is different because we're having conversations that you couldn't have in any other medium. They couldn't be on TV because they would be considered too uneventful and boring. There'd be too much dead air and, you know, TV has to be tight. And even on the radio, you can't have dead air. And obviously you can't swear and you can't, you have to be kind of careful about what you're saying, even if you're on independent stations. But that's not the case with podcasts on the whole. And you do feel like you can have these long form conversations and talk about anything and meander the way that you and I are. And it's fine.

It's a space that's peculiar and an experience of listening to conversation that is peculiar to the podcast medium, I think. So I've warmed to it. The problem is how do you find new ones? I find that really tricky. I'm sort of stuck in a rut. There's so many. Yeah, there's so many. And I think I'm also overwhelmed. I'm sort of stuck in a rut many yeah there's so many and I think I'm also overwhelmed I'm overwhelmed by the choice I'm like what do I want do I invest in it do I

listen every week sort of like spins me out yeah I just like to listen to music and I think the other thing is that one of the things that's good about podcasts is the very intimate connection you form with the hosts when you get into them but i think that very thing is quite off-putting when you first start listening you know there's a kind of rhythm and lots of in jokes and codes and language and stuff which feels quite exclusionary when you come to a podcast that somebody has recommended you know what i mean yeah i like doing them i love doing them yeah because also i think that's it isn't it i think it's that yeah it's that intimacy that you're listening to you're like at what level do i engage in it do i laugh along like

is it because they're not my friends but they kind of are because they're here do you know what i mean you have to stick with them i I've realized, until you become friends. So I'm at the point with Lex Fridman at the moment, for example, where I'm still not sure. I don't know which way it's going to go. I like him. I've met him a couple of times. We spent a few hours together. There's a lot about him I like, but there's a lot that could go either way.

So it's the early stage in our relationship and it's quite exciting. Well, it should be, shouldn shouldn't it at this point yeah i mean lex holy shit he's quite an extraordinary person so he is to go back to lex's routine right yeah he's running along listening to an audiobook about the third reich when he gets back cold shower of course it is isn't he tired of himself are you never going for the cold shower option candies have i ever only in jamaica have i had a cold shower because that is the option but it's not that cold because it's hot in there so it's nice and the water gets warm but apart from that never here i've got a working boiler i can fix my boiler i'm not going to do it i'm not going to do it by choice or even

if i didn't have a choice are you once or twice i've had a cold shower and thought oh yeah that was invigorating i get it really yeah i've had a couple of good cold shower experiences. I just think it would give me a cold. I agree. Back to the Lex Fridman verse. It's time for eating. Right. Lex is on the keto diet, low carb, higher fat. The rest of the time he's fasting, drinking his water, taking his sodium tablets,

having his carrots when it's party time. That's his party vegetable. Then it's time for a shallow work session and he is checking his emails he might check his emails three times a day now that is something that you do have to keep a lid on though don't you find because i imagine when you have a book coming out and when you're doing promo and stuff like that it's just you can spend the entire day looking at emails, right? So I have, like you've seen it now, like quite a strict out of office. That is like, if you don't need to talk to me, here is everyone else that you could talk to instead. And I will maybe cast an eye on it.

So that just absolves me of all responsibility of checking my emails, I think. But I, you know, I I do and sometimes the emails are nice and so I'll enjoy that but generally I ignore a lot of stuff because it's just so loud do you know what I mean everything is so loud and like so demanding and I'm just like I'm in my house you can't get at me I'm like a teenager you've probably worked this out by now what were you like when you were a teenager uh were you trouble was yeah I was what flavor of trouble just it's quite argumentative like very challenging I was always described as very challenging and very assertive but I just asked a lot of questions i didn't understand the answers to because now i'm older i realize that adults chat shit a lot of the time and they try and spin

you their logic and so i'd always question it because i'd be like that doesn't make sense mum or like dad that doesn't sound true and then i get in trouble but i'm glad i was like that yeah it's good to ask questioning mind questioning mind. A questioning mind. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that. We're coming to the end of Lex Fridman's day. This final shallow work session where he's checking his emails and editing his podcast. That's the other thing. He's got one of these podcasts that he sometimes talks to people for about three hours on them. It's quite arrogant, isn't it?

Yeah. But on the other hand, he's quite good. Like he keeps it interesting. He's intelligent anyway. When Lex is doing his shallow work session, that might be the time where if things get crazy, he might have a little drinky. It's been known to happen. Right. And then it's time in the hour or so before he goes to sleep for reading. One hour of reading scientific papers and then what Lex calls fun reading. And at the time of his video,

he was working through the major novels of Dostoevsky. He just finished The Idiot and now he was starting Crime and Punishment, reading it in both English and in the original Russian. You know, I'm just sort of saying i'm just thinking i'm singing so many things like i'm like he probably is having fun and i can't you know because i'm thinking god what a boring guy but then i'm like yeah but he's really enjoying himself so who am i to call him boring yeah because like he would find maybe what i do really boring but he shouldn't because I do like fun things but like you know he's obviously really happy with what he's got going on even though I can't access

that for myself I'm just thinking so many things that I'm just like oh mate what is your idea of fun like what is the most fun thing that you can do on a regular basis um the most fun thing I can do is well yeah exactly it's just reading but it's just a bit more fun than like crime and punishment have you read or just like watching stuff have i read crime and punishment yeah absolutely not it's too long have you no my brother's read it actually my brother is a computer guy as well perhaps his and lex fridman's taste are more closely aligned there's certain people who are like that, aren't there? They just read big, classic books, classic literature.

I don't have the attention span for any of that at all. No, exactly. What's the last enjoyable book that you read then? Wait, when we say enjoyable, what are we saying? A book that you didn't have to struggle through. A book where you weren't constantly thinking, eh, if this doesn't get good in the next chapter i'm gonna give up oh god where you're constantly just thinking oh i'm looking forward to this and oh i better stop reading because i need some sleep

but i could easily carry on okay i read it's not like enjoyable but i read um an american marriage by tayari jones and that's like the last book that I read that I was like, oh, you have to go to sleep. And I read it in two sittings because I was like, it's so gripping. And I love, I like, I love these people. I want to know they're okay. Because I bet you now that you're a successful published author, I bet people send their books to you a lot, right? Yes, they do. And that's tough tough especially if you know the person and they send you or maybe you've just met them once maybe they're just a very uh passing acquaintance but they send you the book and you feel like oh shit i better read this but then it's like

i've got a big pile of books that i haven't read that's been there for years and years and years. And now I've got another one. Yeah, all the time. But actually, if it's someone that you know, then you're just happy to do it. I'm happy to do it. Yeah. I feel very honoured to be asked. Obviously.

Because also you having written as well, what goes into it is so extreme. And you want to respect that someone that you care about or you know has done that or anyone really because it's a fucking undertaking it's exhausting it really is isn't it it's emotionally exhausting like uniquely so i imagine that it must have been very emotionally shredding to write parts of queenie because i imagine that you would have been drawing on some of your own experience of some of those things. Is that right? Not necessarily. The bits that I found the hardest to write were the bits with her mum. And so I would cry when I was writing those bits just because I really loved those characters by that point. But also I've known so many people's relationships with their mums where they haven't felt loved or cared for or haven't been supported or even looked after at a very base level by their mums and so having to channel

something that I've heard so frequently or just have witnessed or understood was really tough because also I just loved them both and I was like why was it not better for you but I enjoyed writing most of Queenie because it's just she's just reckless. It was just like, what mad thing you're going to have this girl do now? And I could just do it. In the second half of the book, then she starts sort of gradually getting her act together or thinking about how she can change her life in a positive way. And part of that is going to a therapist. Those scenes felt

very authentic were you recalling i mean i've just started having therapy this year congratulations yeah thank you was that something that was a familiar routine to you already or so i'd had therapy a really long time ago and i've only just gone back into it as of the last like few months on Zoom obviously and so I wasn't recalling anything that I'd understood for myself in my own therapy sessions it was just more like I know how therapists talk very well and so it was like actually quite nice to be writing in those ways yeah um we've reached the end of lex fridman's day the last thing he does before falling asleep is returning to an earlier mantra from the beginning of the day and he considers with gratitude that he's still alive and he's made it through another day

so he's got a very positive routine going uh speaking of therapy i actually told my therapist about lex fridman's routine did you i described it to her and um she rolled her eyes yeah because also i just wonder how sustainable this is for him that's the thing isn't it what control thing are you trying to fulfill here and what happens when you do fulfill it yeah i mean he's a he's a single guy in his 30s so i suppose it's more feasible to have that level of control when you're in that position yeah because what happens if he does meet someone yeah exactly then having that rigid a routine is really going to cause a problem it's not going to be really impacting

it's not going to be fun to go out with someone who's got i've just got to uh go for a seven mile run i'll see you in an hour actually when i get back i'm going to have to do 20 minutes of exercise and then i've got a cold shower but I can fit you in for five minutes after that before my second four hour deep work session. But, you know, I know that part of me is slightly poking fun because I envy that level of control. I mean, that is, there's part of me that sort of thinks, wow, that would be great if I had the strength of will and the discipline to organize my days like that. Because sometimes part of an anxiety that I feel certainly is just feeling so overwhelmed. You just don't know where to start.

I start on about 10 different little jobs. None of them really comes to anything. I'll succumb to every single distraction. I'll go down every kind of clickbait rabbit hole. And then the day is gone and it's like oh my god i'm a fucking idiot but then i just think so do you know what i mean like it's like you didn't hurt anyone you didn't do anything bad you just had a day where you did what you wanted to do and all that stuff is like like what does it mean

to limit yourself in that way because yeah he has all this like control yeah but it's also so limiting like he if he dies tomorrow god forbid what can he say that he did i don't know i think there's a good chance that he's probably done more in 34 years than i had done by that point depending on what i don't think that's true i don't think that's true wait this is an advert for Squarespace. your videos and pics and I don't want to stop. And I'd like to access your members area and spend in your shop. These are the kinds of comments

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Yes. Continue. Hey, welcome back, podcats. That was Candice Carty-Williams talking to me there. And I have put a number of links in the description of the podcast which relate to some of the things we talked about. There's a link to Candice's book, Queenie. And a link to that book she mentioned,

An American Marriage by Tayari Jones from 2019. That's just a link to the waterstones website waterstones i still haven't got that fixed in my head the way you're supposed to pronounce that i'm drifting through i don't understand there's also a link to a noise generator app that just generates various frequencies of noise. Brown noise, white noise, pink noise, etc. If you liked that noise, I played it to my family the other night on the big speaker in the kitchen. And said, hey, check this out. I think it's going to change your life, kids. If you ever have problems sleeping or concentrating doing your

homework here's some brown noise for you no one liked it they're like turn the brown noise off and i said okay well maybe you prefer some pink or white noise they absolutely hated it turn it off anyway see how you get on. It's a free app. And there's other versions of those kinds of apps that provide... I think you can upgrade with various noise-making apps and buy extra sounds, you know? Relaxing gamelan music or wind chimes or birds singing or forest sounds, jungle sounds, that kind of thing. And then you can customize them. I tell you, there's a good one that enables you to mix various chanting sounds, like monks chanting.

And sort of doing low rumbles and... and sort of doing low rumbles and... You know? Anyway, it's all out there if you explore. I recommend The Monks. There's also, in the description of the podcast, a link to Lex Fridman's podcast, should you wish to explore that,

and his Day in My Life video on YouTube, which we were talking about, of course. And I should say that I'm indebted to Tony Law, the magnificent Canadian comedian, for recommending Lex Fridman to me. And speaking of Tony, if you're a fan of unpredictable off the wall comedy why not explore

Tony and Phil Nichols Twitch TV show Virtual Chamber Echo Bravo I think I'm right in saying that the premise such as it is is the two comedians kind of hosting a touchy feely kind of safe space healing woke

workshop type thing but they don't really stick to that premise it's just an excuse for them to do sensitive therapist voices and talk a load of sort of stream of consciousness balls. Their heads are superimposed over a variety of backdrops that they sometimes interact with. Anyway, I've put a link to their Twitch TV channel in the description. And I hope Tony, who I've known for a number of years now, will be a guest on the podcast sometime in the future. Anyway, there you go, links.

Thanks very much indeed to Candice for giving up her time to talk to me. Much appreciated. Now, before I go today, I sent a newsletter this week. So I'm guessing that if you are hardcore enough to be still listening to this episode of the podcast then you are probably hardcore enough to have signed up for the newsletter on my website in which case you will already have been informed of the two remote shows that I have coming up. But just in case, let me tell you that tomorrow, which is Sunday, the 15th of November,

as I speak, at 9pm, I'm doing an event as part of the Chortle Comedy Book Festival. And I think I will be reading from and talking about my book, which is called Ramble Book. Have I mentioned it? I wrote a book, a kind of memoir, but I'm sure I'll be waffling about other things with journalist and comedian Viv Groskup as part of that live streamed event. Link for tickets in the description of the podcast. It takes place at 9pm tomorrow, Sunday, the 15th

of November. If you're listening after that date and you're thinking, damn it, I wish I'd seen, wanted to see some remote waffling with Buckles shitting on about his book and other stuff, then don't worry, you've got another chance. On Thursday, the 3rd of December at 6pm, I will be having a drink with The Idler. That's The Idler magazine. And I think there may well be some book-related chat as part of that online event, but I imagine we'll get off the subject fairly quickly. I quote now from the Idler website, Join the Idler for a chat with podcaster Adam Buxton, Idler editor Tom Hodgkinson,

and philosopher Mark Vernon. Your hosts will be Tom Hodgkinson and Idler Academy director Victoria Hull. We'll have philosophical insight from Dr Mark Vernon, and the discussion will be followed by a live Q&A. The event is free for idler subscribers. This is an online event. Bring your friends. It should be like meeting up in the pub for an interesting conversation. There is a link to buy tickets in the description as well as a link to a previous one they did with Stuart Lee, as well as a link to a previous one they did with Stuart Lee, the comedian.

So maybe that will give you an idea of what to expect if you're curious. That's on Thursday the 3rd of December at 6pm. And you'll know what to expect. I don't need to warn you, do I? Some bad language. Some toilet humour, some turbocharged introspection, dead parent chat, the usual sort of stuff. OK, Rosie, come on, let's head back. At least it's not raining. Don't you think, Rose? You've got to count your blessings. But it is grey, a little bit windy. It's brightening up a bit.

Come on, dog, let's head back. We can have a nice cup of tea. Thank you, time. Thanks to Seamus Murphy Mitchell, as ever, for his production support. Thanks to Matt Lamont for his conversation editing. It was a slightly tricky one this week. There were some technical difficulties. Sometimes I screw up while I'm recording these remote things

and I leave my monitor speakers on and then you get an echo from the other side and it makes it much more time-consuming to edit if you are editing your conversation but i think matt did a great job and i'm very grateful thanks matt thanks to helen green for her beautiful podcast artwork thanks to acast for their continued support i hope you're doing all right out there wherever you are thanks a lot for listening and until next time

we share the same sonic space please go carefully and bear in mind whether it's useful or not I love you Bye! Bye. Thank you.