THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.142 - BENJAMIN ZEPHANIAH

Episode Date: November 29, 2020

Adam talks with British poet, writer and musician Benjamin Zephaniah.PLEASE BE AWARE: During the first 10 minutes of our conversation Benjamin told me about some relatives suffering with the effects of COVID and included some details that may be upsetting to hear for people who have lost loved ones to the disease. So if you're worried, skip past those first ten minutes and you should be OK. It's not all pandemic chat though - mainly Benjamin describes fascinatingly how managed to make the transition from angry young criminal to internationally celebrated writer.Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production support and to Anneka Myson for additional editing. Podcast artwork by Helen Green https://helengreenillustration.com/RELATED LINKSSAMARITANS NORWICHCHOOSE LOVE AUCTIONCHOOSE LOVE - HELP REFUGEES ON LINE STOREBENJAMIN LINKSBENJAMIN ZEPHANIAH'S WEBSITEBENJAMIN ZEPHANIAH - DIS POLICEMAN (KEEPS ON KICKING ME TO DEATH) (1982, YOUTUBE)BENJAMIN ZEPHANIAH (WITH THE WAILERS) - FREE SOUTH AFRICA (TUFF GONG) (1982, YOUTUBE)BENJAMIN ZEPHANIAH ON WINDRUSH, ANARCHISM AND HIS TIME IN NORTH KOREA (C4 NEWS, 2018, YOUTUBE)ON MODERN RACISM (2011, BBC NEWSNIGHT, YOUTUBE)BENJAMIN ZEPHANIAH RECITES HIS POEM MONEY (1991, YOUTBE)WEST MIDLANDS POLICE PAY COMPENSATION FOR KILLING OF MIKEY POWELL (2003) (2018, BIRMINGHAM LIVE WEBSITE)ADAM AND JOE LINKSADAM AND JOE - FRIENDS LIKE THESE, NME (2020, YOUTUBE)THE ADAM AND JOE SHOW ON WOW PRESENTS PLUS (SIGN UP TO STREAM ALL 4 SERIES) ADAM BUXTON WEBSITEADAM BUXTON'S RAMBLE BOOK (HARDBACK) (WATERSTONES)ADAM BUXTON'S RAMBLE BOOK (AUDIOBOOK) (2020, AUDIBLE) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human folk Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan. Hey, Adam Buxton here. How are you doing, podcats? I'm reporting to you from a hilly field, a gently undulating field,

just outside the fine city of Norwich, East Anglia, a tier two town in these dark days of the Covid. Brr, it's cold. I'm out for a Sunday afternoon walk with my dog friend Rosie. She is a cross between a whippet and a poodle. Her hair is black, She is a cross between a whippet and a poodle. Her hair is black, though she, like me, is cultivating more and more white patches. But she's a great-looking dog, and no mistake. I've just been taking some photographs of her, and I realise that now my phone, from this year, has got mainly pictures of Rosie and sunsets.

A few pictures of the children, obviously. You know, once the children get into their teenage years, they're not too up for having their photographs taken anymore. So really, that's all that's left is Rosie and sunsets. Not complaining. Got some great pics. Maybe I'll put one of them on the blog post accompanying this episode of the podcast. Speaking of which, let me tell you a bit about my guest for podcast number 142. He is the British writer, poet, musician, Benjamin Zephaniah. musician Benjamin Zephaniah. Zephaniah facts. Benjamin Obadiah Iqbal Zephaniah, currently aged 62, grew up in Handsworth, Birmingham, UK, the eldest of eight children. His Jamaican mother was

a nurse and his father, originally from Barbados, was a postman. After being expelled from school at the age of 13, Benjamin spent several years drifting into petty crime and burglary, which eventually resulted in a short stay, an away break if you will, no that's not right, in Birmingham prison. Thereafter, Benjamin resolved to refocus his efforts. Benjamin resolved to refocus his efforts. A little bit of an interruption there from, I think, a pheasant. I got told off last week by someone who said that I misidentified a partridge. I inserted a fact-checking Santa message thereafter.

Anyway, I think that was a pheasant. I don't know. I've lived in the country for well over a decade now, and I still don't really know what's going on. Anyway, what was I saying? Oh yes, Birmingham prize on. Thereafter, Benjamin resolved to refocus his efforts onto something that had always interested him, writing poetry. Towards the end of the 70s, Benjamin found enthusiastic audiences for his poems at punk gigs and alternative comedy shows in London. And his first book of poems, Pen Rhythm, was published in 1980, when he was just 22. A couple of years after that, he made his first reggae album, Rasta, and was the first person to record with the Wailers in Jamaica after the death of Bob Marley in a musical tribute to Nelson Mandela called Free South Africa, for which the legendary Wailers reformed specially.

Since then, Benjamin has recorded six more music albums, has written five novels, five children's books, seven plays, and has a total of 14 collections of poems to his name, by my count. Also by my count, he currently holds 19 honorary doctorates from various universities. universities. He has taught writing in China, America, South Africa, South Korea and North Korea and is currently Professor of Creative Writing at London's Brunel University. His autobiography, The Life and Times of Benjamin Zephaniah, was published in 2018. Reading that was the thing that really made me want to speak with Benjamin. And I'm glad that we were able to make it happen. My conversation with Benjamin was recorded remotely towards the beginning of this month, November 2020. And we began by talking a bit about the pandemic. And I should say at this point, please be warned.

During the first 10 minutes of our conversation, Benjamin told me about some relatives suffering with the effects of COVID and included some details that may be upsetting to hear for people who have lost loved ones to the disease. This is a serious warning. So, you know, if you skip past those first 10 minutes, we, I mean, we do talk a little bit more about the pandemic but I think it's those first 10 minutes that are potentially problematic anyway just so you're aware but it's not all heavy chat with Benjamin by any means he's had a fascinating life and talks candidly and engagingly about it. He's great company and I really enjoyed talking to him. Back at the end for a little bit more waffle cake, but right now with Benjamin Zephaniah.

Here we go. Ramble chat, let's have a ramble chat. We'll focus first on this, then concentrate on that. Come on, let's chew the fat and have a ramble chat Put on your conversation coat and find your talking hat Yes, yes, yes La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la very nice to meet you albeit over the internet that's how i'm meeting everybody nowadays it's weird yeah i remember when the pandemics started, I just was playing around on YouTube or something,

and I found this song being sung by an American academic, and it was a bit of a put-on. He was crying, and he was saying, why didn't I learn Zoom? Why didn't I learn Teams? All of a sudden, he's got to come to terms with all these things that he's been dismissing. It's quite funny.

How have you found all that stuff i kind of pull up with it and i tolerate it and i do what i've got to do but i had some kind of literary conferences to go to or festivals i found them a bit strange next year i've got to do some serious teaching online and i'm not sure how i'm going to do teaching with performance poetry but there you go yeah it's deeply unsatisfactory but it's actually in some ways it's not as bad as I thought it was going to be because I always used to be quite hard line about not doing anything remotely because I felt that there was a connection that you get from being in the same room as a person and looking directly at their face, which you can't

even get close to remotely. But now I don't feel that way anymore. I've had some quite good conversations with people like this. I have too, but there's something that I do, especially when it comes to my students, and sometimes it applies in other situations, where a student wants to see me for a reason they come into my office and there's a moment when I watch them put their coat down I watch them sit down I watch them take a drink of water I can see are they stressed do I need to talk to them for five minutes before we talk about the subject do I need to ask them what life is like on campus how are they all that stuff that reading the person's body language as they walk through the door maybe it's just me but i get a lot from

that before i start talking about the topic that we're going to talk about i look at their body language and well i know i'm hesitating because i don't want to talk about specifics but i've been in that situation when i realized actually this person needs help this is not about the meeting and then I say to them listen are you all right you know um I can get you some help I can sort something out we can leave this meeting for a while and do it later and they've literally burst into tears and started telling me something that's going on with their parents or something that kind of stuff I just cannot get when we do meetings online. But then again, you know, I've been talking to people

who I would not normally talk to. I've had meetings with organisations I'm involved in, we're trying to set up at the moment, a Black Writers Guild. Normally all those meetings would be in London, but now we just have them and it's people. I said this to them the other day, people from all over Britain. Then one person went, well, I'm in Jamaica. Another person went well i'm in jamaica another person went i'm in india oh my gosh yeah you know that's amazing and how are you dealing with everything else this year i read somewhere that

you were being particularly cautious because of your veganism and that makes you more susceptible to colds and flu and that kind of thing. Is that the case? No. No. You read that. I know where you read that. That's a complete mistake. It was an interview with Lynn Barber in The Guardian. It was about 10 years ago.

And she said that she had a cold. And you felt that you should do the interview over the phone because you're susceptible to colds because you're a vegan. She completely got it wrong. And I don't think she was being nasty or anything what happened was she had a cold we had to do an interview she called me she said i need to cancel and i said well you know unless you're really dying don't worry about me i'm a vegan i don't really have the problem with mucus it's really difficult for me to get a cold i said said the opposite. I don't really get cold. If I'm sitting in a car with somebody who's going to cough and sneeze all over me, yeah.

But vegans on the whole, because of that lack of mucus from dairy products, we don't get them very much. Right. And then she completely misread it. And she thought I was saying the opposite, like I'm susceptible to cold. I never get a cold. Fake news! I don't think that.

No. I mean, I love her. I don i don't know that well but she was really nice um and i think she just misread it okay well i'm glad to hear that however i was sad to read that your sister and her husband had been very ill earlier in the year well actually since covid i lost to covid i say. I lost the uncle and I lost the cousin. They were much older and they had other problems, but, you know, they weren't ready to die. Yeah. And then my sister got it really badly and she's got asthma as well and she's younger than me, but we thought we lost her.

I remember she came out of hospital on one Saturday morning and on the Saturday evening, her husband went in. Oh, man. Now, the interesting thing is, my sister got it worse. She went into the hospital ward, and she said she was only there for about five minutes. And she said it was crazy. It was like a film.

She's watching all these people. You know, we need blood, we need this, we need that. And she said it was like watching a you know emergency ward 10 or something like that yeah and then they took her and put her into a private room and she didn't realize how bad she was until she wanted to go to the bathroom and she was leaving the room and she said immediately she was just surrounded by all these people that just went get back in your room you You are highly contaminated. Back off. And she realised, you know,

that's why they couldn't put her in the ward because she was so contagious. She had what they call a very high viral load. Okay. And we know where she got it from. It's her job. She organises all the funerals in Birmingham. She's the boss of that department. Right.

She should have retired the week of lockdown. They begged her to stay on. Reluctantly, she stayed on. And then she got it at the first meeting. The interesting thing is she said that at first she wasn't feeling so bad. And then she said she passed out for a couple of days. Oh, that's not good. And then she said to the doctor, you know, I passed out for a couple of days.

He said, no, you did not. The doctor showed her footage of her hallucinating and fighting and going crazy i mean joyce is the quietest of ladies my sister she's so quiet and humble she never raises her voice she said when she saw herself she was horrified yeah i mean she was swearing and talking about dragons come in and all this kind of stuff wow she thought she was sleeping she doesn't remember any of it. Because she was so feverish. Yeah, so feverish, yeah, exactly.

Then she said she just kept telling herself that she's not going to die here. She said for her, she felt it was mind over matter because they told her, you know, you've got asthma. She's had asthma since she was a baby. She's got other allergies and stuff like this. But she said, I just kept telling myself, I'm not going to die here. I'm not going to die here.

I'm not going to die here. She survived. She came out. Like I said, her husband went in on the afternoon. Her husband was in the ward. Her husband had it less than her. He had a lighter viral load than her. But he was in the ward.

So for a week, he saw that craziness. And this is what people are not talking about enough. My sister has got what they now call lung COVID. Oh, yeah. Okay. That scares me. She's over it. But, you know, she'll get to the top of the stairs and be out of breath.

Yeah, just no energy. Yeah. And when they check her, they think everything's okay. And she is just weak. She feels like she's stopping to give her body enough energy to get her heart going that's the only way she could describe it like just yeah you know and her husband right who there's no other way to put this really you know he's a hunk of a man he's a seven foot Nigerian can look after himself he's a bouncer he used to bounce for

Mariah Carey and people like this is you know he can really he can take care of everybody who's in his care he is a broken man he just cries 24 hours a day oh no it's affected him mentally so much he just sits in his room and cries what aspect of the whole experience was it that got to him to that degree? Hearing other men and women crying and dying. When somebody dies of COVID, I have actually seen this, they tend not to. I mean, I think they've got drugs that can make them do this now, but in the early days, trust me, they didn't die in their sleep. It's a very violent death.

They are gasping for air. And he said people were dying, and men were crying for their wives and crying for their children oh man and he said my sister said even she had to give him a separate room and when she thought that he wasn't crying when she didn't hear him she'd go into the room and she'd find that he was always crying he was just sobbing and she said what is it and he said i just cannot stop seeing and hearing those people in the hospital uh-huh and so he's got this i can't remember what you call it i guess it's this thing that soldiers get ptsd yes yeah yeah and i've talked to a couple of other people who know of people who are suffering from it and And there's other people I know who were their carers,

who were the staff, doctors and nurses, who are also suffering from the mental stress of having to deal with it. I think there's going to be a real mental health crisis when this is all over. Absolutely. And it's shocking, you know, for most of us, we're lucky enough to live You know, for most of us, we're lucky enough to live relatively comfortable lives over here in the West. And we don't have too many extremely shocking things happen to us on a regular basis. But when they do, you know, if you lose someone or something terrible happens to you, it's really upsetting. It really throws you for a loop. And that whole thing of having flashbacks and going back to the moment where it happened and i've never experienced anything too terrible but

just from being with my parents when they died that was enough to knock me off my perch quite badly and to understand or to get a glimpse of what it would be like to have experienced something far worse far more traumatic and really be taken apart by it as much as we well i don't know about you as much as i complain about politics here and stuff like this the way we've created this society we are cushioned from a lot of those kind of things i mean even very basic things usually now when somebody passes away you know there's a whole army of people to take the body away and do all this stuff a couple of years ago i was walking in india and in the middle of the pavement there was a dead body literally sitting in a lotus position i almost bumped into it and i was like what's he doing

and i said to these people when somebody moved him and they said um they're waiting for the lower caste people to come because i don't know if you know the caste system in india yeah yeah that work is below the higher caste people so they're waiting for a lower caste person to come in and he was there for a couple of days but they weren't shocked by it they obviously this all the time you know uh-huh and one of the things that i was going to say i just don't understand probably i do understand it really is that you have these marches in london of people demonstrating saying that it's a hoax they don't want to wear masks and um and i find that really odd because most demonstrations I want to go on but that one I just think that's really weird and I just think to go on that march you must not have had anybody die or get sick

from Covid in your family because once you have you know it's real. The marches and the skepticism about the lockdowns and so much of that just seem to be more about people not trusting what they're being told not trusting the media yes and just having a general sense of weariness and cynicism about how things are explained to them you know yes and it's it's more like their frustration is just coming out in that way. I knew this was coming. In fact, I am very angry about this whole thing, and I come to it from a vegan point of view. I saw this coming years ago, but that's not what I mean here.

Because of the way we treat animals and the markets and all that kind of stuff. Yes, yes. Okay, while we're here, I mean, it's not about China. MERS came from Saudi Arabia. Swine flu that I got and almost killed me came from Mexico. Mad cow disease, the last couple came from Britain. And CJD that came from mad cow disease. I mean, it didn't kill as many people.

We managed to get on it quickly. But, you know, there's still viruses that go from animals to humans. So that's another argument. But when I say I saw this coming, I meant in December or so, because I have family from China. I knew what was going on there. And then in January, my music agent was thinking about starting to book some gigs. I said, no.

I told them I wasn't going. I should have been in China this year. And I said, I'm not going to China. I'm staying home. So she went, OK, we'll book some gigs. some gigs so I said no don't you know that this virus is coming and this is really going to be something and my keyboard player said Benjamin come on man you should know better than that it's just the government trying to scare us and I said to him I said look most of the time I would agree with you. But this time, my friend, my

brother, I think you're on the wrong side of the argument. If anything, the government are not telling you enough. If anything, the government are holding back on a lot of things. I made him apologise to me a few months later. And do you tend to find yourself, though, someone who is interested in reading about various conspiracy theories and things like that? So maybe your friend thought, oh, Benjamin, he's always talking about this kind of stuff. He's going to be worried about the 5G towers next. It's funny. I'm very suspicious of governments and big organizations.

But I would never call myself a conspiracy theorist. I always try and look at the facts and see what can be proved. And with the 5G stuff, I think there is an issue with 5G, but it's got nothing to do with COVID. You know, I mean, they're just not connected, in my view. And so I've read a few of these theories i've been really lucky because i work at the university and um so sometimes i can go and look at raw data and it's one of my favorite things now i mean when it came to brexit i just look at the raw data and just look at the facts and look at the truth i was going to say i'm one of the i feel really lucky to have but i'm not sure if lucky is the right thing. I have seen the coronavirus through a microscope. And I don't know what I'm looking at,

but I've had somebody there explaining to me what I'm seeing. Does it look like a little ball with trumpets coming out of it? Not only that, when you see it really closer, you can see its little claws. No. Seriously, it looks like, if you'd have said to a graphic comic designer, design an evil virus that's going to take over the world, you know what I mean?

This is what he would, you know. You can literally see the claws where it grabs onto your respiratory system. Shut up. Oh, man. It really does look like something that comes from an evil comic book kind of scenario. Yeah. And it's got like a little layer of fat around it which the professor told me

cannot be made in a laboratory every cell in our body has a little bit of fat around it it's not just the stuff we have on astromex you know and it cannot be made in the laboratory and he said to me so we know it came from an animal okay you know so these people that said it was made in a laboratory and all that kind of stuff i don't believe that i don't buy that yeah and are you on the whole in an optimistic frame of mind these days we are speaking just a few days after the american elections the presidential elections does that put you in a more positive frame of mind or are you generally an optimist or are you someone that is pretty depressed about the state of the world i'm a piss optimist i'm a bit of both it depends what we're talking about yeah when it comes to these viruses and

stuff i just think no we're not going to learn i think there's a massive element in the room which is animals and we're just not talking about, the way we treat them and the way we relate to them. So I think, you know, these viruses are going to come back. When it comes to Trump and that, I just think, oh, at least, I mean, I don't know that much about Biden, but I do understand the need, if you're going to do politics the way we do them, for some kind of agreements between countries.

I thought the Iran agreement was reasonably good. It helped calm things down. All sides thought it was a reasonable deal. Iran was being checked and they were, I don't know the details of how well they were kind of living up to their obligations, but at least they were being checked in terms of their obligations. And then the environmental agreements that america had made the united nations all that kind of stuff already biden is talking about signing back up to these things yeah getting back involved in these things and at least i think whether we like him or not i don't know that much about him at least america is going to be at the table i saw something the other morning

actually it was the night they kind of said well you know trump is going to lose i woke up i came to where i am right now turned on my computer for some reason i did a bit of surfing and the first thing i saw was a little film from about eight years ago with a little black child with biden and he's playing with his badge and b Biden takes off his badge, and he says, what's this, and he says, oh, this is a flag of the United States. He puts it on the little kid, and his mother is there saying, say thank you to the man, and he goes, thank you. And then his mother said, do you know who this is?

This is the man who's going to be the next president of the United States of America. And Biden kind of plays it down, he goes, it kind of moved me to tears and it was about the boy and and the mother and the way the mother was trying to just tell the boy say thank you and yeah and the mother's kind of belief that this guy was going to be the the new president of the United States I mean I do find as I get older though I do get more emotional and tear up at these things you know I can watch a ballet and start crying now yes what is that I suppose it's because I'm a little bit younger than

you but I'm in my 50s and I've been very aware of that in the last few years just the fact that it doesn't take that much to set me off I suppose it's an appreciation of your own mortality a little bit, is it? Yes. And I think also, I mean, people can be critical of it, but I think at least men are beginning to have conversations within themselves about mental health, about life, about death, about their kids. They're having a relationship with their kids now, which are much more... I just never had any kind of deep conversation with my dad at all

the only time my dad actually sat down with me was when he would get me to watch a muhammad ali fight you know i mean that's the only thing when i took my first book to him i was so proud i had this little book i took my then girlfriend and i said come and meet my dad i'm going to take him my first book and i wanted her to see know, my dad's reaction and everything. He just took the book, Fruit on the Ground, and went, you know, who wants to listen to you? Oh, no, he didn't, did he? He did.

Yeah, he did. Oh, mate. And so, you know, and he came from Barbados, and he was obsessed with the British stiff upper lip. Uh-huh. You know. He sounds a bit like my dad yeah yeah and i think there's a whole generation of people now who have grown up and we're just able

to talk more and be more emotional i know it's a bit of a cliche but have more emotional intelligence and so you know i cried i cry in interviews now I'm not going to do it now, but... I'll make you cry. My neighbour had a son that took an ecstasy tablet and just dropped down and died. Oh, no. On the spot. He just took it, went, died.

His father was leaving his mother then, and we think that was why he probably went to that party and he was feeling down and he took the drug in the first place. But that's another thing. His mother had no one to help her with the funeral or arrangements. why he probably went to that party and he was feeling down and he took the drug in the first place. But that's another thing. His mother had no one to help her with the funeral or arrangements. Obviously, she wasn't expecting this. She's young herself.

So I went and helped her. And I was in the middle of touring as well. But I helped her do the funeral arrangements. I actually spoke at the funeral. And then I was in Hexham, just outside Newcastle and I was doing a literary festival event, sitting on a couch talking to somebody and we started talking about fathers and men and their relationships with their children and stuff like this

and I started talking about this and I burst into tears and it was one of those uncontrollable crying, you know. It wasn't like a little bit coming out of the air. Yeah. You know, I mean, it wasn't like a little bit coming in there. Yeah. You know, I mean, everything had to stop. Yes. I mean, I just couldn't pull myself together for a good couple of minutes, which is a long time when you've got like four or five hundred people just sitting looking at you. What was your interviewer doing?

He just went quiet, you know. The strange thing was a lady on the front line and the front row said to me have a drink of water benjamin and i went no it's fucking tap water i don't drink tap water and everybody just fell about laughing and i started laughing and crying at the same time you know because i told them to bring me some mineral water and they brought me bloody tap water so i was a little bit upset so you basically look like the world's biggest diva you're crying uncontrollably because you've been given the wrong water well not just because of that but that made it worse yeah it's a strange feeling isn't it to suddenly find yourself that vulnerable and to feel that people are seeing right into you.

Yes. It's odd. I make strange noises when I cry because I went on, there's a podcast called Grief Cast hosted by a comedian called Cariad Lloyd. It's very good. And she talks to generally other comedians about their experiences of grief in various forms. And I've been on that show a couple of times. First time to talk about my dad when he died, and then this year to talk about my mum when she died. And I just about kept it

together when I was talking to her about my dad. But this year with my mum, I think because they're both gone now, and I'm that much older, it just overwhelmed me a little bit. And I found that I make a very strange yelpy noise. I'm talking and then suddenly I'm overwhelmed and I realize, oh, I'm going to have to cry. But then I think, no, I'll get through this. I can carry on talking. Come on, control yourself, Buxton. And I carry on talking, but I can't and my voice just goes really weird.

And to start making weird noises and then I have to cry. I'll tell you what I did once. I think it was a lot of things at once that was going on in my life. And there was nothing very bad. I mean, there was lots of small little things going on. So there's no big major thing. And I called the Samaritans. Oh, yeah.

And the lady answered the phone and she said hello and I just cried into the phone. Yeah, man. And I was much younger then. I was 30-something. Uh-huh. And I just cried into the phone for about 20 minutes. Yeah. And then I just, I pulled myself together and I went, I'm sorry, goodbye.

And she went, bye. That was it. We didn't say anything. We didn't speak at all. I just cried. And I think men sometimes, when you're crying for one thing, you're crying for other things as well. You're making up for it, all the stuff you've hid back. So were you far less emotional when you were a teen, for example,

when you were a young man growing up in Birmingham? I think, in all honesty honesty i was just as emotional but just not showing it and sometimes not showing it to myself just stamping it out getting rid of it i mentioned my dad earlier um this is a slightly different subject but i think there's a there's a connection my sisters used used to have these dolls and for some reason, I went through a phase where I just started doing the doll's hair, combing their hair and he took me into a room

and he just said, stop doing that right now. Stop that business. Combing dolls here. It's a woman thing. I think he gave me a gun and a man from Uncle said, go shoot people,

go shoot some. I think he gave me a gun and a man from Uncle Setton go, go shoot people, go shoot something. Old school playbook. Yes, yeah. And that kind of attitude got drummed into me by the men around me. Okay. You know, don't cry. You were the oldest, weren't you, out of your siblings?

Yes, yeah. So there's a slight pressure there, isn't there? Well, i didn't really grow up that much with my other brothers and sisters i don't know if you know the story but my mom left home my father was really violent and my mother left home and so i spent more time with my mother i don't have much memories of being with my siblings one or two but not many did you ever feel talking about your father and him being violent in that way, I mean, it's tempting to think that, well, he was that type of guy who had it all locked down and pushed down and didn't want to show any weakness by being emotional. And that so often ends up spilling over into violence of one kind or another.

I'm sure there was more to it than that. But did you ever worry that you were going to exhibit those same kind of tendencies with women or with other people? Well, I've actually not worried. Well, I did worry about it, but I actually did. You know, I mean, there was much of my father's behavior that subconsciously i copied i remember just a certain attitude to women i remember once when i was 15 i mean i spoke about this once in an interview and it kind of got taken right out of context where i um i hit a girl when i was about 15 years old and the moment i did it i I just went, ah, that's my dad.

You know, and it was kind of, you know, it wasn't, it was gang stuff, really. Not to say that that means it's not so important. But the moment it happened, I just saw my dad. I'll never do that again, you know. I mean, I was so apologetic to the girl, and she kind of laughed at me and just went, you're a wimp for apologising. I mean, this is really weird.

I mean, the men were like that around me, but, you know, so were some of the women, and that's not a politically correct thing to say, but that's the reality when you're what we call gangbanging, when you're out on the streets with gangs, you know. That's the kind of guy you're supposed to be yes everyone sort of plays their part everyone slots into their role even though they may not deep down want to or agree with it yes but i think of it like this i will always admit and say that I was raised sexist. And as soon as I realised that I was raised sexist,

I spent the rest of my life struggling not to be sexist. Yeah, to be aware of it and to correct it. To be aware of it. Yeah. And I'm probably sexist now in some of the things I do. I mean, not consciously, but I'm always checking myself and correcting myself and learning. Yeah. And the reason why this is important, I say to people, is because if you look at the Black Lives Matter movement now, that's all we're asking white people to do.

We're not accusing all white people of being horrible racists. We're saying that a lot of white people are just a product of their society. society. And sometimes they just need to be aware of the privileges they have and not taking advantage of certain situations because of the privileges they have. And nobody's perfect, but we are products of our environment and you just have to be aware of it and aware of our history. And that's exactly how I see it. As soon as I was aware that I was a sexist and I was excited to become aware of the struggles of women, not just for the vote, but just for equality and liberation and all other ways,

I just started to check myself and educate myself. And that's all we asked white people to do. Yes. Yes, please. Yep. yes yes please yep yes i read your book the life and rhymes of benjamin zephaniah an autobiography published in 2018 really enjoyed it and it begins though with you kind of pointing out the inherent fakeness of a lot of autobiographies yes and it made me think because i wrote a a sort of memoir i i

haven't lived the kind of life that you have so it wouldn't really be appropriate for me to the way you say that like i've been really naughty you've really good. I don't think it's as simple as that. I think you've just done a little bit more, met a few more people. You've got more stories to tell. Yeah. You know, I included my one encounter with the police, which was getting busted, nicking posters in the London Underground, film posters. So that was the exciting criminal intrigue in my book but before i ask you about some of those things and some of the stuff you write about in the book

with the whole thing about writing an autobiography do you think that it's ever really possible whether you're writing or interacting with people or whatever you're doing do you think it's ever really possible to be anything other than a bit fake surely everyone is just trying to manage the way that they come across i mean it does seem as if you've been very honest about a lot of things in the book i was really really trying to be honest i mean i was trying to be as honest as possible yeah there are a few things that happened in my life that are not in there. And the only reason why they're not in there is because the other people involved said no. Right.

That instance, for example, where I talked about with a girl when I was 15. I'm still very close to the woman now. She's married now and she was older than me. But I said to her, can I put this story in? She was, no, I'm forgetting it. Why don't you forget it? Shut up. can I put this story in?

She went, no, I'm forgetting it. Why don't you forget it? Shut up. And a woman approached me from the BBC said she wanted to make a film about people who are involved in gangs now. Because we should say at this point for people who haven't read the book and don't know about your life

that you spent quite a few years in your late teens as a gang member, gang leader even. Yes, yeah. I was the leader in the last gang, yeah. And you were sort of organising burglaries and thefts of equipment and things like that? Yes. We weren't like the modern gang,

which would just walk around the streets and then claim a postcode and then wouldn't let any other kids in. We weren't that kind of gang. But, you know, we were a slightly low-level criminal gang. And also you are clear about the fact that as soon as things started to become violent, as soon as guns came into the picture

and people started getting hurt, then that was what rattled you. You were never into that aspect of the whole thing. Well, I started to see people dying, you know, and I just didn't see any reason why I wasn't next. Yeah. I really, I couldn't see what was so special about me. But yeah, so this woman approached me from the BBC,

said she wanted to make a programme about people who are living that kind of life now. And I had a talk with her. It seemed okay. She was going to get back to me. I didn't hear from her. So I then spoke to a friend of hers and said, you know, is she going to get in touch or is she dropping the idea?

She said, you were just too nice. You weren't angry enough. You know? And that's the kind of thing I can't fake. I can't say, well, you know, I'm really fucking struggling now and I've got my gang and my boys now, because I ain't. You know? I've got my family.

I've got a couple of friends who are looking after their children. I can't fake being the angry young black man. But it's hard to believe that you ever were the angry young black man and that you were a sort of personality that was tough enough and pissed off enough to want to be a gang leader. Anybody that knows me from the past will see the opposite side. Oh, really? They look at me now and they go, wow, it's amazing how you've changed.

Oh, really? We used to fear you. I mean, if I wanted something to come out from the book, actually, probably it's the rat. You know, you can turn your life around. Right. Really, I was bloody horrible when I was a kid. Because I was angry with the world.

And I went through various stages. There's one point where, you know, I kind of hated white people for slavery. And so there's nothing wrong with me robbing their houses. Because it's just taking back worries hours. Okay. And then I realised that not every white person was involved in slavery and you know some of them cared about me just as much as black people cared about me then i went through a stage where i was really anti-police because you know some

police stopped me and roughed me up and like i throw bottles through police station windows and stuff like that i mean there's various stages of angriness I went through, but anybody that knew me knew that I was a nasty piece of work. But deep inside me, I kind of... I explain in the book that when I'm about eight years old, I imagine what I really want to be. And then my environment was telling me I've got to be this bad guy to survive. This is it.

You know, I can't walk around Handworth or Aston in Birmingham going, I want to be a poet. I get jumped. Yeah. You know, it's like, if I didn't learn how to fight and take care of myself, and if I can fight so well and take care of myself, then I've got to be the leader.

And, you know, that's the environment. I was amazed when I left Birmingham and came to London. I'm not saying that, you know, Birmingham is the worst place in London, it's about the environment that you're in, but when I came to London, and I met people that didn't have a police record, I was like, what? And I'd say to people, yeah, when I was in jail,

they'd be, ooh, you went to jail, did you? Oh, what was it like? And I'd be like, gosh, in birmingham everybody i knew went to prison so the book it really is about somebody that's able to turn their life around that was me i look at myself back then i don't recognize myself but i understand why i was the person i was but when i was young let me put it like this I remember doing a burglary and coming out of the house and saying to the people, literally, this kind of sitting down, counting the money.

In those days, it sounds strange now to a lot of young people, probably the young people like yourself, but the big thing about breaking houses was the meters. You used to have a gas meter, an electric meter, and a lot of houses had a TV meter. Right, so you'd bust into that and go out with all the coins. Yeah, yeah, you know, literally have a bag with swag on it. Oh, my God.

You know, and then you may find a watch or something like that, you know. So we're literally counting the money, sharing the money out. And I'm saying, did you notice the books on the bookshelf? This person was, like, reading Karl Marx or something or reading Marcus Garvey or did you notice the smell of the bread in the kitchen? And they go, what the bloody hell are you on about? Just count the money.

Yeah. You know, but I always, a bit like a novelist, you know, you have a sense of the environment because when I'm writing now, I remember those times. It helps me to do descriptions of things. Didn't that make it harder, though, to be callous about it and to ignore the fact that you were, you know, ruining the, at least the day of the person that you had burgled? Well, that's partly why I couldn't do it anymore. Right. You know,

I got to the point where I was saying that I can't do this because of me and I can't do this because of them. Yeah. I mean, this may sound weird, but when I stopped doing crime, I felt really, really liberated. Sometimes when I'm on stage, especially when I'm in the Midlands area, I go on stage and I start by saying, I apologise if I've robbed your house. You know, the audience fall about laughing.

I actually had one guy one day say, you took my guitar amp from the boot of my car and I know it was you because the area you operated in. And somebody told me it was you. You know, I was like, and I actually think it was me. Oh, man. And you even put, though, in your book that one of the other guys came back with a guitar and you were angry with them because you were like, you don't nick a guy's guitar. That's not cool.

I don't know. There was a certain level of equipment, which I thought was cool. But the guitar. Yeah, that's too mean. don't know there's a certain level of equipment which i thought was cool but the guitar yeah that's too mean like not an artist not that thing that he uses to express himself but what flipped the switch because it's very hard to imagine when you're in that environment to actually have the strength of will or purpose or whatever it might be just to yank yourself out of it. It's hard to rewrite the script. It's really difficult. I mean, I can't remember how much detail I go into in the book,

but basically I'm lying in bed. There's a gun underneath my pillow because one of the other gang guys, who is not alive now actually, he said he's going to come and he's going to kill me. He's going to forget the guy's under me. He's going to kill me. And so I just thought I had to protect myself.

So there's a guy on the door, because they knew where I lived, or I heard that they knew where I lived. And I'll never forget it. I went to bed that night, and I was listening to a Marvin Gaye track, What's Going On, and thinking, yeah, what is going on?

And I remember the little dream i had when i was an eight-year-old of being a poet and all this stuff and just dreaming one day i'll do the adam buxton podcast and stuff like this and um and i just thought you know i've got to go and actually and one of the one of my last thoughts was i mean i just alluded to it so and so is dead so and so is dead so andso is doing life in prison. What is so special about me? Everybody's telling me, well, certainly my enemies are telling me

that I am next. So when they come for me, only two things can happen. They can kill me or I can kill them. So let's not be here, Benjamin. And I woke up the next day and I went that's it now you're right it wasn't as simple as saying that's it because I had pressure I had all these gang members who were relying on me because I've got all the contacts saying Benjamin man we got money to

collect this weekend this person owes you money that person owes you money we can't get it from them you've got to go and get it I was like no as much as I could I kind of leveled up with them financially I had a little Ford Escort and I said I'm going to London now when I tell this story in school sometimes I always I put it like this I say you know I was involved in you know if you could imagine I've got I don't know 10 year olds in front of me and I say well yeah I was involved in this, I say, you know, I was involved in, you know, if you could imagine, I've got, I don't know, 10 year olds in front of me. And I say, well, I was involved in gangs and I was involved in crime, boys and girls. And I realised I was in the wrong gang. And so I left Birmingham and I went to London.

And then I got involved in another gang and the children go, oh. And I go, it's okay. It was a gang of poets, musicians, singers, painters, you know. And I say we are pack animals or social animals. Gangs is what's normal for us. You know, you have gangs of politicians. You have gangs of this. You have gangs of that.

They may not call themselves a gang, but that's what they are. And so there's nothing wrong with having gangs. It just your friends but what are you doing with your friends i found people who thought of me as a kind of leader still and i was kind of cool and all that stuff but for poetry you know yeah and i'd be inspired by them and they'd be inspired by me and i managed to make a living. I wasn't going to jail. And when I tell that story in school to kids, they just love it, you know. It's a bit like getting high, actually. I always tell children that there's nothing wrong with getting high.

It's what makes you high. I get high on martial arts. I get high on yoga. I get high on breathing. You know, everybody gets high on something. The politician is a hypocrite if they're telling you not to get high on drugs, but they're happy to get high on alcohol and some other stuff. So it's about how you fulfill your needs.

Yeah. Clearly, part of what made you a useful gang leader was a kind of charisma and you were able to transfer that to the london clubs towards the end of the 70s in a time when punk was blowing up and there was this strange aggressive tension in the air yes or at least that's what it seems like from watching countless documentaries on the subject. Have you ever seen a poem of mine called This Policeman Keeps on Kicking Me to Death? But he cannot hear my mind Like a bat from hell He come at night He work in evil plan Although he goes to church on Sunday He's a sinner man Like a thief

But he takes me To the place where him just met And when he make me hinder Him he's kicking me to death This policeman This policeman This policeman Keep on kicking me to death

This policeman This policeman This policeman Keep on kicking me to death When I wrote it, I was angry. But you just reminded me by saying what you said, because when I performed that poem, I go right back to the time I was being kicked to death

by the police officer in the station. And I could have died. I really could have died. People after me have died. And later on, my cousin Mikey Powell did die, you know, in the same police station where I almost died. And in very much the same way that George Floyd was killed. Almost word for word, if you like. You know, the last things he said was,

I can't breathe, and he was crying for his mother. So, but when I'm on stage, I kind of go back to that moment of anger or whatever it was, that emotion that made me write that poem. And with this policeman keeps on kicking me to death, that was it. I remember those nights so well. It's a weird thing to say. I would never have said it myself, but you've just said it really.

A lot of the things that made me a kind of reasonably good gang leader and a leader generally and somebody that's able to kind of stand in front of the gang and go, well, right, this is what we're going to do. Tonight, right, we are going to Erdington. We're going to take on the boys in Erdington or something. It's the same kind of thing that makes me able to stand on stage and go, right, this is what we're going to do about apartheid. We're going to take on the government, right?

This is what we're going to go down to South Africa House and we're going to protest down there, right? It's the similar type of anger. Yeah, I mean, you talk about a number of incidents and encounters with police obviously you were probably having more encounters with police than the average person because of your interest in waywardness but the way that you were treated often was pretty shocking and some of the things that you remember the police actually saying to you one of them said to you in the 70s most of us are hard-working racists with the power of arrest yes what an extraordinary dark thing to say i was telling

somebody the other day he's got a kind of psychotherapist background and i was saying that um when i dream now i still dream of being chased by the police and being stopped by the police and stuff like that and she was saying that's trauma you know if you're still dreaming like that and the problem was the reason why I'm a little bit unsure about it is because I did do some bad things even when I was doing some bad things I got beat up and arrested for things I didn't do yeah I can understand that because that's the world we're in I'll give the cops that that's the world we're in but once I stopped that it was so hard going straight I mean I was trying to go straight and the police were, I remember I told a cop

that I'm going straight now. I'm doing a bit of painting and decorating. He just laughed at me. He just laughed at me. He said, I'll never believe that. You'll never go straight. You know, I can't remember the exact words, so I'll paraphrase him, but basically he said I'm going to be a crook all my life. You know, this is what I was born to do. This is the way I'm going to stay. Now that's just one officer being really open. When you've got lots of officers all over the country who stereotype black people as always doing crime, you know, as always on the wrong side of the law, even when they're trying hard not to be, then we have a real serious societal problem. Yeah i mean i do think i'm not sure if you're

familiar with the writer france fanon no um very brilliant french algerian writer i think it was what's the name again france fanon okay don't ask me how to spell it f-r-i-o sorry i'm very dyslexic um great writer though yeah um you'll find that everybody's read him. Marcus Garvey, all the black thinkers have read him. Because he talks a lot about how when black people are so oppressed and they cannot rise up and fight their oppressors effectively, how sometimes they start to fight themselves. France, Omar Fanon.

Yes, yes. You're so quick you young people with your google not so quick with the thinking but really fast with the googling back to the clubs though back at the end of the 70s i love the idea of you witnessing the birth of uk punk and being there and watching a load of bands that I wouldn't have imagined you as a young rasta being into really like the damned going back every night to see the damned and x-ray specs what were you getting from those shows anger it was like the anger in them you know and it was like I'll tell you what I was getting from them which actually lots of white kids got from them. It was like working class white kids with a lot to say.

Not brilliant musicians, but so much energy and so much passion about what they had to say. And a lot of what they had to say. We were living in similar kind of situations. And the other thing was, and this is really important, and I think this really brought us together in a way that is not related to the way

we are, I was going to say intellectualising it, talking about it, analysing it what really was happening on the ground was the National Front hated us all, they hated the punks just as much as they hated the blacks so we really had to stick together.

And punk music was definitely anti-racist. These were just kids on stage telling it as it was. And reggae was doing a similar thing. The advantage that reggae had was that we made records. In the early days, punks didn't have records. You know, they just had the live gigs. And that's why in those early punk gigs you know the punk band would play you know and while they're changing over you hear reggae

and it would have a really calming effect until sham 69 got back on stage 100 miles an hour and then you cool down with a bit of reggae you know yeah yeah that's people like don let's importing those reggae records is it don let's was. I mean, it wasn't just him that was importing them, but it was him that was playing because he was around Clash. They didn't have records, so he started saying, well, I'm going to play reggae. I mean, I wasn't there. I wasn't in London then, but I know Don,

and we've talked about it a lot. That's kind of helped connect punks with reggae. Yeah. And then when I came to London to see some of the best bands I wanted to see, reggae bands, we had to go to punk gigs. It's really interesting because, you know, you get the punks up there spitting and throwing stuff. But when the reggae bands came on, they were really respectful.

Okay, there's no gobbing at the reggae people. No, no, no, no, because the brothers are not going to stand for that shit. You know what I mean? No, no, no. Even me, I wouldn't stand for that. But I liked a little bit of heckling. I mean, I'm a strange poet. I'm happy with an audience that's slightly drunk and rowdy and, you know, heckles a bit.

I'm cool with that. Okay. What I don't want is, you know, the opposite. A lot of poetry readings are people sitting quietly quietly indifference politely yeah did you always have it in mind that you were going to do music was that always part of your plan yeah yeah i was doing music alongside poetry from my very early days okay and so i knew that i wanted to go and record. Dub is a form of reggae music, instrumental reggae music. So dub poetry is poetry that works with music, but if you take the music away, it should still sound musical.

Am I right in saying that Rasta, recorded in 1982 in Jamaica, was your first music album? Rasta wasn't recorded in Jamaica. Oh, OK. Rasta was recorded in England. When we did the re-release and we put it on CD, we put a couple of tracks on there which were recorded in Jamaica.

Ah, OK. With the Wailers. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. I'm interested in you working with the Wailers and how that came about. Oh, that was quite amazing. I mean, I went to Jamaica. In those days, you'd literally just have a massive tape

that the record company gave me, put it under my arm, sat with it on the plane on my lap. Massive thing. To think you could just put that on a key fob now. Yeah. But I took that over with me. There was a couple of people I really wanted to work with, Burning Spear, somebody I'd call Fred Locks, and a few people couldn't find them they were all out of town I was having a

conversation one day with um some women that run a women's theatre group in in Jamaica and one of them said would you fancy working with the whalers and I was like are you crazy and at that time I knew that the whalers were at war anyway they were kind of suing each other and there was lots of stuff going on after the death of Bob. And I said, you know, that's not going to happen, is it? And she said, look, I'll have a word with Family Man, the bass player, and see. So she did. And Family Man turned up to see me, and he said, look,

we're going to do this track with you. Because it was about Nelson Mandela. Mandela was in prison at the time. And they said, we called a truce, you know, so we could make this record with you and that's what they did wow I was really lucky yeah and I remember when I um I'll tell you my two strongest memories of that session one was we'd organized a day for rehearsals and recording and a time and they showed me where it was and I remember we supposed to start like

six o'clock in the evening about About two o'clock in the afternoon, I was driving past and I could hear a band in there. So I thought, let me pop in. I popped in and the Wailers were there. They were there. And I said, oh, I'm really sorry. I thought we were starting at six.

And they said, yeah, we started at six, man. We're just warming up for you. Wow. I mean, they were warming up from two o'clock till six o'clock for me. I mean, that's how dedicated they were, you know? Yeah. And then the other thing that I remember really well

was being in the studio on the first day of recording and the police came in and they just said, OK, recording finished, recording is over. So I said, they can't just end the recording like that. And they went, no, what they're trying to say is give them a bit of money and they'll leave us alone okay especially because you're a foreigner and so they know you've got a bit of money uh-huh so we had to pay the police a bloody bribe so the next day i had to call the record company and i had to say look i need more expenses

and they were like so what what items do you need this for? So I said, I need ganja for the band, marijuana for the band. Really, they demanded a certain amount of ganja on top of their wages. And protection money, if you like, for the police. And they're like, are you serious? And yeah, you've got to send me this money now. The record company sent it over. Wow.

The good old days. And then the other thing i remember was um arriving in britain arriving back in london and some guys from the record company there and some other people are there and they still don't believe i've worked with the whalers you know they still think you know i'm pulling their leg now if you know the whalers music the drummer is unique he's got a unique style He's got these drum rolls that are really quick. They're amazingly quick. And I put the record on, and as soon as that drum roll went on, the tune hadn't started yet.

Everybody jumped up and went, yeah! I'll never forget it. The tune hadn't started, just that drum roll, and they knew this was a Whalers track. So those are the three things that just came to mind. Be them friend, that is illegal. No matter if you're black or if you are white. No apartheid, no apartheid. Don't play with them, that is illegal. Do not trade with them, that is illegal. No matter if you're Church of Christ or Methodist.

No racist, no racist. Free South Africa. I read once that you said you were against the death penalty because you want to allow time for redemption. Yeah. And I thought that was a nice thing to say and made me think about the fact that I feel sometimes as if the digital age and the fact that everything is archived and everything is preserved and every person's history is now searchable. I feel as if that sometimes makes it harder for a person to get redemption. Do you know what I mean?

Are you religious? No, not really. Right. But we know that we are a product of religious societies because our names are religious. Yeah. Right? You know, our names are usually some derivative from the Bible

or something like that, right? And lots of the ways that we think are from a judo-Christian kind of thinking, even though we're not really religious, right? That's just the way we are. Yes. In fact, you say that in your book, you talk about the fact that it's a little bit like Shakespeare. Everyone is completely inured to the extent that our language and our culture is informed by all these things because it's hardly questioned anymore yeah yeah i mean most people quote shakespeare sometime in a day you don't realize it you know exactly and some of that is good and you know some of that is bad and i think one of the good things about it is this idea that you

can repent. We keep making little circles in this conversation, but just going back to me as a bad boy, people said lock him up and throw away the key of me. He's a nasty bastard. He should never be let out on the streets again. I didn't kill anybody, but deep down I knew that I was a reasonable guy.

Deep down. All I wanted, and I proved it, was a change of environment. So it doesn't matter how bad somebody is, I want to give them a little bit of room to understand what they've done wrong and maybe repent. It doesn't have to be a religious repentance, but some of the best people when it comes to dealing with alcoholism when it comes to counseling people who's suffering from alcohol or drug abuse are ex-abusers themselves right that didn't used to be a thing in the 70s um and i remember talking about that

why don't we get people that have experienced it man let's get people that are you know now it's a thing when i go into prison to do talks, sometimes it's very moving because I'm talking to these people. Some of them, I knew them when I was in prison in the 70s and they're still in prison. And they were just as talented as me. You know? The last time I went to Birmingham prison, I did a lecture from my cell.

The actual cell that you occupied when you'd been there? From the actual cell that I occupied. Wow. You know, and it was so emotional. There was one woman there that said, you know, my dad was here when you was in that cell and he used to tell me about you. And when you came on television, he went, I remember him.

Aha. And when I'm standing in front of these prisoners, I'm telling them straight, I have got no degree in criminology or anything. Sorry, I ain't got any of that. But I know shit because i was here and i can tell them people i was in jail with you know who were quite well-known people and probably the most notorious is the birmingham six who were innocent and i remember them guys

and so speaking from experience is a great thing so if you can if you can turn your life around and then say right i'm going to put this experience to good i think it's an amazing thing you know once upon a time i did a little bit of youth work it wasn't much it was like you know if you could do a couple of hours here we give you a bit of cash in hand and the best times for me was when i would sit down on a step with a kid and just go yeah yeah, I used to be fucking bad too. I used to do this and I used to do that. And be really open with him with the stuff I did. And they go, why you stop being a gangster then?

I go, because I wanted to be here with you, man. You know what I mean? That really touches them. I wanted to be a survivor. I didn't want to be dead. Do you want me to show you some graves? I can show you some graves if you want. And that is not me showing how much I've studied for this kid

and then telling him what he needs. This is me just telling him my experience or her my experience and saying, well, you know, if you want to carry on that way, you can. But I'm still here and I'm still here because I turned around. And what I always find really interesting in those moments is I always tell them, I'm still as angry, still pissed off at society

and I'm still pissed off at the police and I'm still pissed off with the government. But you know what? They have to listen to me now. My poems have been quoted in Parliament on three occasions. Sometimes the politicians come to me for advice. You know, like, what? Just because of your poems, yeah?

I'm a doctor 18 times over and a professor twice. Just because of your poems, yeah? Yeah, just because of my poems. My poems are all about fucking police. You know, there's something very powerful about it because it comes from a real experience. I'm not saying that in a sharp way, but I'm just saying in answer to your point

that that's why I want to give people room to turn their life around. Yeah, and not write them off completely. Well, we're coming up to Christmas, your favourite time of year, I know. Well, we're coming up to Christmas, your favourite time of year, I know. There's lots of things about Christmas that rub you up the wrong way, and I think you generally take yourself out of the country at that time. Is that right?

I used to, yeah. I can't do that now. Haven't got the option this year. But at this time of year, especially this year, you've always been someone that has done bits and pieces of volunteering. that right yeah in the community and things like that i know that you can just google this kind of thing obviously but i thought it might be good to actually hear it from someone who's done it for anyone who has wondered about doing that kind of thing how do you go about it like someone is working a job but maybe they have a couple of days free a week and they think it might be a a good thing and it is from what i hear extremely enjoyable and uplifting for all concerned i think so so how would you go about

that first of all if you can connect it to something you like that's great so if you can connect it to football for example but it may not just be like football boys able-bodied boys do disabled women or something because you learn more if you are interested in um i'm making this up off the top of my head now bingo You can volunteer to go and do bingo in, and you can't do it now, sorry, but, you know, in nursing homes. I've got a friend that does that, you know. Connect it to your passion,

and it really doesn't seem like work. And it becomes something you love doing. And just think of the people. And when you get to a point, and it's too stressful, and just say, I've got to stop now and that's it. I would be weary.

Again, I keep saying this. Now is not the time. Probably not relevant now. But normally they do have a problem. A lot of charities I know around Christmas, they have this surge of help. Then at the end of January, it drops off quite quickly.

Okay. It's not just for Christmas. Charity is not just for Christmas. There are other times in the year where charities need help as well. So that's not a very kind of concise answer to your question, but that's the best I can do. No, no, that makes sense. Yeah, that's a good thing to be reminded of is that one of the problems with christmas if you look at it a certain way is that

yeah people do just sort of go okay that's the uh two weeks of the year that i'm gonna be nice and uh yes and then i won't bother to phone my family the rest of the time fuck it and all that sort of stuff to wrap things up would you be alright to do a poem? ok, I'm going to do this Overstanding open up your mind, make some rhythm come in

open up your brain, do some reasoning open up your thoughts so we can connect open up for knowledge and intellect open up the speaker, make me blast the sound open up the sky, make the bass come down Open up the sky, make the bass come down Open up your eyes, make me look inside If you want to overstand this, open wide Open up your house, make the refugee come in

You might overstand and start helping Open your imagination, go for a ride If you want to overstand this, open wide Open up your fist and welcome a kiss Get a load of this, open up business Open up your bank account and spend Open up your wallet and check a friend Open up the dance floor, make a dance

Open up your body and love romance If you have not opened up, you have not tried If you want to overstand this Open wide Open up the border, free up the land Open up the books in the Vatican. Open up yourself to any possibility. Open up your heart and your mentality.

Open any door that you confront. Let me put it straight, sincere and blunt. Narrow-mindedness must run and hide. If you want to overstand this, open wide. I love it. Thank you so much for doing that, man. I'm sorry to put you on the spot. Cool.

No problem, man. I appreciate it. That's such a nice way to end. Thank you very much, Benjamin. Would you mind if I take a screenshot of us together? Cool. How do you do that? So if you just look at your camera, I will it from this end hey say cheese i'm a vegan

man no cheese wait this is an advert for squarespace every time i visit your website I see success, yes success. The way that you look at the world makes the world want to say yes. It looks very professional. I love browsing your videos and pics and I don't want to stop. And I'd like to access your members area and spend in your shop. These are the kinds of comments people will say about your website if you build it with Squarespace. Just visit squarespace.com slash buxton for a free trial and when you're ready to launch because you will want to launch use the offer code buxton to save 10 off your first purchase

of a website or domain so put the smile of success on your face with squarespace yes continue Squarespace. Yes. Continue. Hey, welcome back, podcats. Benjamin Zephaniah there. Dr. Benjamin Zephaniah they're dr benjamin zephaniah perhaps i should say i'm very grateful indeed to benjamin for making the time to talk to me there's a good few benjamin related links in the description of the podcast links to interviews and performances of some of

his poetry on tv i think that's one of the reasons he made a name for himself in the 80s was that he was very telegenic and had a good sense of how to perform to the camera. There's also links to the bits of music that I played in the podcast of Benjamin's. This policeman keeps on kicking me to death and Free South Africa recorded with the Wailers you can hear the whole of those links in the description of the podcast they're on YouTube both those tracks though can be found on the CD reissue

of his first album Rasta from 1982 and I will try and put a link to a place where you can buy that as well. I don't think it's available. I got hold of a second-hand copy. Anyway, so how are you doing, podcats? All right, I hope. I am beginning to feel the... Oh, now those were pheasants. Rosie is looking at them, chastising herself for not having run in and grabbed them by the feathers and held on for dear life. No, I'm not. That's a grotesque mischaracterisation of what I was doing. I was merely sitting and admiring the beauty of the beasts as they flew into the air and done a few streams of shit as they took off. I apologize for mischaracterizing you. That's okay.

Yeah, I'm sort of beginning to feel the pre-Christmas anxiety levels rising, even though this year, I mean, if there was ever a year where I don't think anyone should feel pressurized to get it all together for Christmas, have all your presents sorted, etc., it's this one. But still, I didn't do my family Christmas photo album last year, and I felt bad about it, and I thought I was going to catch up this year. Now that's just not going to happen, I don't think. Because it's Christmas in like less than four weeks, isn't it? Maybe three weeks now, as I speak. Anyway, I'll try and have a slice of chilled cake and just relax a bit. A couple of things before I say goodbye today that you may or may

not be able to help with. You heard Benjamin talking with me about how he was able to call the Samaritans at a point when he was feeling bleak. I mean, he wasn't suicidal or anything, I don't think, but he just felt overwhelmed and they were there for him at that point. But the Samaritans are there for anyone who feels overwhelmed or unable to cope and unable for whatever reason to talk to anyone else. Anyway, it was a reminder of what a valuable resource the Samaritans provide. And of course, now that it's needed most when so many people are being affected by the pandemic in all kinds of ways I imagine that they along with many other organizations are feeling the pinch from the lockdowns so you know if you are listening and

if you are able to make a donation of some kind then I would really encourage you to do so I've put a link to my local branch of the Samaritans in Norwich in the description of the podcast so you could donate there and I would imagine the donation is for the organization as a whole not just for the people of Norwich but yeah you know as I say sometimes people occasionally say to me, oh, Buckles, thanks so much for the free podcast. I feel ashamed to be taking this free gift from you. They don't necessarily use the word ashamed. Is there any way I can possibly repay your incredible generosity? Yeah, this is one of those ways. Also, shout out for another good cause, Help Refugees, in particular the Choose Love charity. You may have seen people wandering around with those Catherine Hamlet t-shirts with the big writing on them saying Choose Love.

Well, they are part of the Help Refugees charity. And a friend of mine is involved with an auction of prints. Print Club London are inviting you to choose love with our online auction. Artists taking part in the project have made their mark on the iconic Choose Love slogan created by Catherine Hamnet and all proceeds from the sale

of these artworks will go directly to help refugees. You can play a part in raising money for the charity by bidding for the originals via our online gallery below i've put a link in the description of the podcast now i'm speaking to you on sunday afternoon and the auction closes tomorrow morning so i appreciate not that many of you will be able to bid in the auction

you'll probably be listening at a later date but if you are listening today and you are able to get involved, then please do. My friend Ewan, aka Red Belly Boy, has a design included. I appreciate there's a lot of charity messages flying around at this time of year. But I've given you two more.

Don't know if you noticed. If you'd like to contribute to the Adam and Joe charity all proceeds going to Chuckles then I've posted a link to an interview that me and Joe did for the NME

they have a feature called Friends Like These and it's a video thing. I didn't realise it was a video thing. I thought it was just a print interview. So myself and Joe turned up on Zoom, only to be told by the journalist that actually it was going to end up as a video on the NME website. Oh.

So I put on my old Adam and Joe sailor's cap, and we spent 20 minutes or so reminiscing about the olden days of making the Adam and Joe show on Channel 4 at the end of the 90s. It was good fun. And you can see the results on YouTube via the link in the description of this podcast. And the reason we did the interview in the first place was to promote the fact that, as I've mentioned before, in the last few weeks, you can now see all four series of the Adam and Joe show on the WOW Presents Plus streaming platform. Link in the description. Phew,

that's a lot of links I've thrown at you. Pheasant. Well, that's it for this week thank you very much indeed to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his production support thanks to Annika Meissen for additional editing on this episode thank you to Helen Green wow they're everywhere for her great podcast artwork. Thanks to ACAST for their continued support. Rosie, come on, let's head back. Amblepast from the Hairy Bullet. Thank you, particularly listeners. A hug? Come on then.

Oh, you've been working out. You're feeling incredibly firm, but still nicely spongy. Until next time, go carefully for crying out loud, and remember, I love you. Bye! Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Please like and subscribe.

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