THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.15 - KATHY BURKE

Episode Date: April 6, 2016

Adam talks with Kathy Burke (film and TV actor and theatre director/writer) about various moments in her career thusfar. Her erratic social networking behaviour is also discussed. STRONGEST OF LANGUAGE USED! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This podcast contains a selection of strong swearing, including the absolute worst of all the swearing words. It gets tossed around with gay abandon. Be warned! I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin. Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening. I took my microphone and found some human folk. Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke.

My name is Adam Buxton. I'm a man. I want you to enjoy this. That's the plan. Hey, howdy. Adam Buxton here. Enjoy this, that's the plan. in the local forest area once again with my canine companion Rosie. Quite a few people asking what kind of a dog is Rosie as if they hadn't listened to the very first podcast wherein I explain exactly what kind of a dog Rosie is. The main thing, though, is that Rosie is a nice dog. She is respectful and kind and friendly and affectionate. And I don't know if it's just a series of pre-programmed doggy responses designed to get food. I'm sure that's a large part of it.

But she does a pretty good job of convincing you that she genuinely likes you. She's not too licky, which I find that's a deal breaker for me. If you feel like a lick and and you encourage her she'll definitely give you a lick i'm not saying that it's off the table but it's not instant it's not like i'm gonna lick you which i don't really like i don't like it when human beings come up and instantly assume that they can lick your face either it's not just a dog thing. Anyway, that's Rosie. Let me tell you about this week's Ramble Chat guest, and it's Kathy Burke. Oh, wow. Kathy Burke, for those of you not so familiar with her, is a British actor, writer, and theatre director. She grew up in the London butter of Islington, where she still resides currently. She attended the Annashare Theatre School in North London.

And she was cast in the film Scrubbers. I think it was about a girl's bore stall, like a women's prison. And she got that part very young I mean 17 18 and she's gone on to appear in a number of feature films Sid and Nancy, Straight to Hell, Walker all directed by Alex Cox between 1986 and 1987 she was in Elizabeth this is just a selected filmography some of the films I've particularly enjoyed that she's been in. Elizabeth, about the queen of the same name, directed by Shakar Kapoor in 1998. Kathy was also in Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, directed by Thomas Alfredson in 2011. Back to her theatre work in 1986, aged just 22, she wrote a play called Mr Thomas and cast a young actor called Ray Winston as the lead. And of course, 10 years after that play, she starred alongside Ray Winston in Nill by Mouth. Holy Moses.

She played Valerie, a woman who suffers horrible physical abuse at the hands of her husband. I mean, that was a film that everyone was talking about that year. I think it was 97 that it came out, was it? Around then, anyway. And, boy, it was very hard to watch, but amazingly, brilliantly put together and brilliantly played, not least by Cathy, who won an award Best Actress at Cannes that year. Throughout the 80s and 90s, Cathy became a very well-known and well-loved

figure on TV in the UK, appearing on shows like French and Saunders, Jennifer Saunders and Dawn French, of course, and absolutely fabulous, Harry Enfield's television program, Harry Enfield and Chums, alongside Harry Enfield and Paul Whitehouse. Oh, man, those shows were so great. She's in the hit sitcom Gimme Gimme Gimme alongside James Dreyfuss. And that show, I think, was written by Jonathan Harvey. It was a huge hit. But one of those shows that comedy snobs rather turn their noses up at.

We talk about all that later on. I think it takes a real gift to play a kind of crazy over-the-top character but actually give that character some depth and that's something Kathy's very good at. In recent years she's concentrated on theatre projects but she still takes on the odd acting role. We talked in her kitchen one afternoon in late February 2016. That's this year. I'm saying that for the benefit of listeners in the future. Anyway here's me getting to know the excellent Kathy Burke. The The problem talking to you about anything approaching your career is that you've done so much. Oh, really?

And it's so very... I don't know if it's going to be because I haven't got one. No, no, no. I mean, do you feel like you've done a huge amount? I don't. I sort of feel pretty knackered from it all, really. Yeah, because you were writing when you were very young, right? Yeah.

I was also sort of assistant directing in theatre. I only went to the theatre for the first time when I was like 17 or something. And I really liked it. I really liked the liveness of it. I suppose because I like going to gigs. So it was like, oh, right, so this is sort of similar to going to a gig, you know. Yeah. And it was an actor called, right, so this is sort of similar to going to a gig, you know. Yeah. And it was an actor called Philip Davis, Phil Davis.

He does loads of work. If you looked him up, you'd recognise him immediately. And I knew him because he was in a film back then called Quadrophenia. Oh, sure, yeah. So he was one of the guys in that. And I saw a leaflet and he'd written and directed a play. I thought, oh, this is some, Oh, right, I know this guy. This guy's in Quadrophenia.

So I went to see his play. It was a bit sort of over my head. It was quite a brainy little play. Yeah. But I had a chat with him and I went up to him in the bar afterwards because this was at the old Red Lion. Yeah. And I said, oh, can I say hello?

And he went, yes, yes, of course. And I said, oh, can I say hello? And he went, yes, yes, of course. And I said, oh, this is interesting, because I didn't realise that you could write and direct plays if you're an actor. And he just said, well, you can do whatever you want, you know. He said, you know, you really, it's great. If you're interested in writing, then these are the best places to start out,

because they don't cost a fortune and he was just really open with his advice and I was only I was a 17 18 year old girl you know and he wasn't looking at me like well young lady you know um it's very difficult it's very difficult to get into this process um you know he was absolutely do what you want and I think he quite liked my ballsiness you know and um well that's sort of um at the tail end of punk I suppose isn't it yeah yeah very much so yeah 80 81 that was yeah and so people have got that attitude still towards making things yeah doing it for yourself that's it i think you're right and also i was very lucky in that the first acting job i did the director of that

it was a film called scrubbers yeah and the director of that was a woman called my zettling who was an actress swedish actress from the 50s and she was very much in my ear all the time going you must write you must do other things otherwise you'll just be stereotyped as an actor you'll just be the funny fat one and that will be it i mean at that time when my said that to me i thought i don't care being a funny fat one i want to do that yeah you but of course, by the time I was 19, I was already bored with it, you know, and it was like, I've got to change this,

you know. You went to Anna Share theatre school, right? And were there a lot of other people there who had a similar background to you

or were they quite different people? Yeah, no, it was very mixed, Anna's. I think a lot of people think,

oh, it's the working class hooligan kids that all went to Anna Shares. But it was really mixed because it was based in Islington. And Anna would, Anna Share herself, would encourage writing, you know, and not just improvising stuff. And did you, did you feel like you were quite good or were you quite a diffident person? Did you feel like you were quite good or were you quite a diffident person? No, I didn't know what.

I mean, I liked, I remember when I was a kid, I would be the one that would get the other kids to sort of do plays, for want of a better word, you know. I was always into sort of doing stories rather than just playing for the sake of it. And I remember in my last year at primary school this regular thing started to happen in the playground that I had set up which was called I mean it's quite dark when you look back on it but it was called the happy family and it was basically a family just fucking hated each other right and we're always rowing you see and different people would come in as different

characters or you're you're the mad uncle that drinks too much and you're this you know so I remember doing a lot of that sort of crap but yeah when I started Anna's I mean she's very good Anna because you know you could you sort of sit there for a good few weeks without doing anything and a lot of it you know her first rule is you've got to be a good audience. So you've got to know how to sit and watch and listen and take everything in and just suss out how it works, you know. And then finally, I was asked to get up and do something. And I can remember the feeling now even. It was, I was so scared.

And what she used to do, so she'd go, so you'd all be sort of up and shouting somebody that wasn't there so you're sort of having this dialogue with yourself basically and I noticed that every kid that got up it was always an attack was always because because the the line would use she'd give you an opening line. So it'll be something like, you know, you've really upset me today. Or, why, why weren't you at the bus stop at the time you said you'd be there?

So of course, because we're all young and we're all kids, people tended to stop, why weren't you at the bus stop you said you'd be there? Yeah. And then there'd be a little pause.

Well, I said this and I said that. You said this and you said that. Da-da-da-da-da-da. Yeah, because anger is a sort of easily absolutely grabbable emotion exactly so I don't I don't think I planned it I actually think it was more to do with nerves and then she said you you what's your name again and I went Kathy

Burke and she went okay Kathy stand up first line is why weren't you at the bus stop when when when you said you'd be so I stood up and I didn't say anything and what I did I just listened to this imaginary person for a few moments and of course I didn't realize I had this funny face and that it was expressive so I was just sort of looking at nobody and they all started howling and I thought oh this is oh this is working and then I went but what and so I couldn't get the line now because the person that wasn't there was really angry with me and then I ended it with but why weren't you at the bus stop when you said you'd be there and that was it and I got this huge cheer and like feet stomping and I mean it was like wonderful I was on such a high but it was a definite mistake it was it was

nerves but because the laughter started to happen, I just thought, I'll stick with it. All right, OK. And then did you sort of unpack what had happened in retrospect and think, why did they dig it so much? And maybe it was the surprise. Maybe it was that you had made a choice that they would never have thought of making.

Yeah. And that's why they were so delighted by it. I think so. I think it was that you had made a choice that they would never thought of making. Yeah. And that's why they were so delighted by it. I think so. I think it was that, really. It wasn't that I was doing anything sort of particularly great. But I think it was just that I did something different. But that's the great thing, though, isn't it? Yeah, I suppose, yeah.

Because that's what you're looking for in most art, isn't it? Is to be surprised in some way. Or to see the world in a way that you would never have seen it before. Yeah. Never thought of seeing it. Yeah, yeah. And it was great.

I remember going home and it was the first time, I just, I couldn't sleep. I was buzzing. Yeah. You know, I was really buzzing because apart from at school, when you get a laugh and a cheer at school because

you'd basically been out of order yeah so you're always punished for any sort of amusement that had been caused you know but here i wasn't punished it was like i was congratulated you know and it was it was lovely and did that inform the way you did things thereafter? Yeah, I was pretty much then the clown. Oh, yeah. I was pretty much anything for a laugh. And so then you do Scrubbers. Yeah.

And that was a pretty serious role. Well, it sort of was. It was a serious film. It was a serious film. Yeah. But I was sort of there as a bit of light relief as well, you know. And then only a few years thereafter, you start working with Alex Cox. Yeah, that was pretty soon after then, actually.

I think because Alex had seen Scrubbers. Ah, OK. Alex had seen me in Scrubbers. And, yeah, so the first time I worked with Alex Cox was Sid and Nancy. Did you already know Gary Oldman? I did. I did. I knew Gary already, yes. And, in fact, it was Alex had said to me,

because I said, who's playing Sid? And he said, well, it's between two actors. It's between an actor called Gary Oldman and an actor called Daniel Day-Lewis. Oh, really? And I said, oh, you should get Gary Oldman. Yeah. You know? Daniel Day-Lewis. Oh, really? And I said, oh, you should get Gary Oldman. Yeah. You know?

Daniel Day-Lewis is a hack. Although I really do love Daniel Day-Lewis. Obviously, he's great. But I didn't really know Daniel Day-Lewis then, you see. But because I knew Gary, I said, oh, you should get Gary Oldman. He's the greatest actor going. I mean, you know, that's not a bad choice. No.

That you can't really go wrong with. No. And he was brilliant. Yeah. Is Alex Cox quite a nutcase? Yeah. Well, he was back then. Yeah.

He was. Yeah. He was balmy. And I then did another film with him. I did a film called Straight to Hell. Right. Was it even the same year was it that you shot that? it was actually, about a year later

yeah and I didn't like it he sent me this script and I remember reading it and thinking god this is rubbish and Alex said did you read the script? I was like,

well, look, I only read, I'd sort of make this excuse. I said, I only read my character cause I'm doing this new method thing where I just, I only want to know that my story. And it was just cause I couldn't bear to say to him,

I thought it was shit. Cause I thought, well, if I tell him it's shit, he's not going to add me in the film. Yeah. And I wanted to do the film because all these really groovy people were doing it right so it had people like elvis costello was in it and various

members of the clash joe strummer joe strummer was in it the pogues were in it oh shame again and um jim john moosh was in it dennis hopper was in it grace jper was in it Grace Jones was in it I mean it was bonkers Let's get some more eccentric people involved Exactly Tim Robbins was sacked from it Because he wouldn't get his hair cut He was too normal

Absolutely It was a crazy job And everyone I would imagine Behaving oddly Everyone was so badly behaved a crazy job. And everyone, I would imagine, behaving oddly. Everyone was so badly behaved. I mean, it was proper rock and roll, you know. I remember the first time I met Shane McGowan was in the hotel bar.

It was about 11 o'clock in the morning and I'd just been for a swim. And I went to the bar to get a cup of tea and Shane McGowan was stood there. And I said, hello, I'm Cathy. I went to the bar to get a cup of tea and Shane McGowan was stood there and I said hello I'm Kathy I'm doing the film and he went oh it was Shane you all right and I said can I get you a drink and he went all right I'll have a bottle of rosé that's I was like Jesus Christ and I remember the one person I had no problem chatting to everybody but the one person I was really nervous and shy of was Elvis Costello. OK.

And I remember we were sort of in the costume tent getting changed one morning and I was suddenly in there with Elvis Costello, you know, and we'd said hello and everything, you know, but this morning he was there and I just thought, oh, for goodness sake, just say something everything you know but this morning he was there and um and i just thought oh for goodness sake just say something you know so i just said have you been working on any songs while you've been here and he just went yes i came up with one last night do you mind listening i mean my insides were like all right you know You know, and I was like, yeah, yeah, go on then. And he played, and it was that track from Blood and Chocolate,

I Want You. And he'd written that the night before. Wow. How cool, though. That's exciting. Really exciting. And then when the album was released, he sent me a copy of the album,

which was fantastic, you know. Yeah. And then did Shane McGowan keep it together throughout the filming? He sort of did, actually, yeah. I mean, you know, listen, there was loads of drinking and drugs and all sorts of shenanigans going on. But, I mean, everyone was there every morning to film, you know? In those days, it was the early version of ecstasy

people were starting to take, wasn't it? And everyone called it X. Yeah, I didn't know what was going on. I was sort of there in the hotel one night when a few of them were quite happy and jolly and being very touchy feely and i freaked out i didn't know what was going on i went what's everyone on this is what's what's going on what's everyone taking yeah you know and i was sort of encouraged to do it myself and all that but i was such a little

coward i was like no no i was really frightened of chemicals yeah well rightly so yeah yeah because um you know your sense of yourself was important to you and to what you did as an actor and you do gamble with uh once you start popping pills that that that might disintegrate somewhat yeah you take the wrong pill i suppose yeah well what was happening then there's a lot more coke around then you see everyone seemed to be on coke and i really hated coke i hated people on coke i just thought they were cunts you know and um who was it jarvis cocker said something very good about cocaine you never say about someone oh he's really got a lot better since he started taking the coke you know he's become a much better person you know it's

like fame as well yeah yeah since they got famous they've been really nice they used to be awful yeah so um then despite the fact that alex cox is kind of frustrating and wayward from your point of view, you then worked with him a couple more times, right? Walker? Yeah, no, I did Walker. That was the last time I worked with him, actually. Okay. And that's Ed Harris in there.

Ed Harris was the lead. And it was, yeah, so this was now 86, was that? 87? And I decided I was never going to work with Alex again, you see. I just thought it was all too crazy. Right. And anyway, Alex got in touch and he said, I'm doing this movie, I'm going to be shooting in Nicaragua,

I'd love you to come out. And I said, you're having a laugh. I said, I ain't fucking going to Nicaragua with you. know there's a there's a war going on and um and good on him he was like look look you know this is going to be an adventure this is a once in a lifetime opportunity and and I said but you were mad on straight to hell you were mad and he said look I've calmed down This is a political film and I'm not going to go over there and take the piss and be a madman. You know, I'm there to do a serious piece of work and I'd love you to be a part of it, you know.

And how was Ed Harris? He's quite a formidable presence, isn't he? Yeah, he was great, actually. He taught me how to play poker and I took great pleasure in cleaning him and his mates out, literally every night. And just beginner's luck, you know. He's quite intense, I get the impression. Very intense. And it was a very intense part he was playing.

I mean, you know, it's one of those roles where he's in every scene, you know, and playing a madman, basically, you know. Did you ever see The Abyss? Mm-mm. No, I don't think so. It's pretty good. Yeah. I think he's in that.

And there's a scene in that film where she drowns, Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio's character drowns, and he has to revive her. Right. And it's really amazing. For a while it was like I was obsessed with the scene. He sort of brings her around and he's just shouting at her, screaming at her.

Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! He's got kind of snot pouring out of his nose. And it's such a strange scene to see in this big mainstream kind of blockbuster but it's this moment of real, it feels really

real and visceral and exciting you know, it's great to have those kinds of actors who do those sorts of films I don't know why I've never seen that well maybe because a lot of people thought it was crap. Right. I might have avoided it.

Yeah. I mean, you can play a lot of very intense, very serious parts, but as a person, you're pretty easygoing, I would say. Yeah, I suppose. I mean, that's how it seems to me. But then you've got an actor like Ed Harris, and for him, it seems like in order to play

those parts he has to kind of live them somewhat yeah it's pretty intense 24 7 you get the impression well there's a lot of that going on at the time especially in the 80s there was a lot of sort of method acting going on they wanted to sort of stay on location and sleep on the location and live the life, you know. Keep it real. Keep it real. I was like, oh, shit, you know what I mean? I'd rather go home, have a nice bath, nice bed, you know, get up the next day and still turn it on, sometimes better than then.

But then, I mean, Gary Oldman's a good example of an actor who can do lots of different stuff and appear, and Ray Winston, appear in mainstream movies and quite goofy movies, but then also be doing these really quite intense and dark bits of work. I mean, yeah, it's easier for the guys, though. Yeah, you reckon the guys get of course the guys get far more choice of character types you know which is why i wrote a play yeah and i didn't write the play to be in it i wrote and directed a play to show that my brain could understand different characters i I could empathise, not only with little fat birds that were funny, you know? Yeah, and that was Ray Winston. Ray was in that.

And I didn't know him terribly well then at all. I think I'd only met him once. And he'd accused me of being a lesbian because I'd beat him at pool. Classic lesbian move. Yeah. I just was getting together a reading of it first to then try and get some money for it to be put on

So I sort of went up to him in the pub and I said Look, I've written this play And he went, no, no, no, don't do theatre, don't do theatre There's no money in it And I said, well, it's just a reading It'll just be a reading No, no, no, there's no money in it I said, well, I'll give you 50 quid

for doing the reading if you like the play. And he went, oh, all right then. Only if I like it, you know. So he went off and read it. But then he rang me the very next day and his first question was, did you write this? You know, and I said, yeah, yeah, I did. And he said, you write how people talk.

And I went, is that a good thing? And he went, it's a great thing. And he was like, OK. He said, so my character's gay, yeah? And I went, yes, yes, is that all right? Hmm. Yeah, it's all right, I suppose. Yeah, all right.

And then people came to see it. I mean, it got a Time Out award. It was televised. You know, it was really cool um but the best thing was was that people started seeing me in a different way as an actor you know um and one of the people was mike lee and he saw the play and he's very known for his honest, honest way. He said, I've been told about you quite a lot. People have said, you'd like her.

I had met him years before. He said, but I was never that impressed, to be honest. He said, but then I saw your play and everything changed in my mind about you. And I said, well, that was one of the reasons why I did it, was to change people like you, change your minds, you know. So it was good. It had good impact, you know. So Ray Winston, by then, you know,

you formed a relationship with him after doing your play. Yes, we were, yeah, we became friends. We were friends then, yeah. And Gary Oldman, your pal's with already. And so how did Nail By Mouth come around as a project? Who wrote it first of all? Well Gary wrote it, Gary Oldman wrote it. Was it based on his background? Yeah

it was sort of a mash-up you know of one of his sister's lives and somebody else that he knew you know so it was all based on truth and he actually toned down some of the violence, you know. And I remember at the time, like, when it all came about, I just wasn't interested, because I wasn't sort of...

I don't know, I wasn't sort of friends with Gary anymore, you know. Because before Gary went off to America, and he won't mind this, because it's a known fact, that he was drinking quite heavily and he turned into a fucking wanker, basically. And I just didn't like him anymore. He'd gone from someone that had been a really good friend, someone that I loved, to just turned into a bit of a tit. And so I just wasn't interested And I sort of stopped returning calls.

Not that it had a major effect on him, you know what I mean? He then went off to America and married Uma Thurman and, you know, was having this great life. But the best thing that he did was stop drinking. And so, you know, and he went to AA. And it completely saved him as a person, you know and he went to aa and uh and it completely saved him as a person you know um so anyway so when i got wind another mate had sort of said oh oldman's in town you know he's he's trying to get this film together and all this business and i was like oh that's nice that's good

for him you know and this guy said oh i think i think you know he did he was asking after you like what you're up to and all that i said oh i don't i'm not interested i wouldn't want to work with him you know very pleased for him but it's all going well and he's not drinking anymore i don't want to be his mate and i certainly don't want to work for him you know so that was that and nothing sort of more was said and then a couple of months later again, my agent phoned and said, I've got this script. Gary Oldman wants you to read this script.

I said, I don't want to read it. Why not? I said, I don't like him. I don't want to do it. So Stephen said, well, I'm going to read it. It's my agent, Stephen Atten. He said, I'm going to read it. I said, agent, Stephen Atten. He said, I'm going to read it. I said, yeah, yeah, you read it.

You knock yourself out. Anyway, he phoned up a couple of hours later and he went, I really think you should read this script. And I was like, oh, for God's sake. And he went, no, I just think you should read it, you know. And then Ray Winston phoned me. And he went, why aren't you reading this film and I went because I don't want to work with him and he went don't be silly read the script

so I read the script and it was like oh fucking hell because it was literally the best thing I had ever read it was like this was why I wanted to act because this reminds me of Ken Loach it's Alan Clark it's all those other things. So I loved the comedy as a kid, and I had those heroes, but I also loved Ken Loach, and I loved Kez, and I loved Kathy Come Home, and all those hard-hitting films and play for todays. Remember, Geraldine James was in a play for today called dummy and

it was like the most extraordinary thing I'd ever seen she was a deaf and dumb prostitute you know you couldn't get more hardcore you know and stuff like that I just thought was brilliant and there I was reading nearby mouth and it absolutely reminded me of all those great things that I'd watched you know so I was like yeah all right you know I'll do it you know and um and I'm really glad I did obviously it was so filmic you know it was I just thought it was shot beautifully. And despite its harshness and its hardness, I also thought it was really funny. And it was a great experience. I can't imagine what it's like to play a part like that.

Do you get totally depressed while you're filming something like that? No. Well, I wasn't drinking at the time you see which was interesting I sort of didn't drink for about three four years and um and that and while we were making that I wasn't drinking and I was really glad I mean I used to come home at night and think there but for the grace of god go I and actually away from filming and being a... In what way do you mean that? Well, in that I could have got involved

in someone... In an abusive relationship. In an abusive relationship, you know. You just never know, you know. And you don't know who you're going to fall in love with, you know. And these characters

were very much in love. She was in love with Ray's character, you know. So, no, I used to come home every night and just think, wow, look at me, look at my lovely flat, look at my lovely life. I haven't got some nasty bastard knocking seven different colours of shit out of me every night. I'm in total control of my own life. of shit out of me every night.

I'm in total control of my own life. And so I just used to feel quite good about myself, you know? And I'd go into work every day, sort of looking forward to going into work, because it was an exciting project to work on. I mean, the boys would give out to me, Ray and Jamie Foreman, they'd be like, you never come out and have a drink with us. Why aren't you coming out with us, you know?

And it was like, no, no, no, because I need to be at home, you know? And it was that. It was just... So I didn't let it get to me, so I wouldn't get depressed. And it's like, well, it's not my life. I'm acting, you know? Presumably that film must have made a big impression on a lot of people and a lot of people who'd actually experienced things like that. Did you come across any of those people thereafter?

Oh, absolutely, yeah. The amount of black cab drivers that would go, that was my mum, that was my mum's life. And, you know, people like that, just everyday people. And it was always either their mum or their sister you know um everybody knew somebody that was getting their head kicked in by a you know a lost bully because i thought that was what was sort of clever about the film because he was a victim as well you know it wasn't just her she wasn't just a victim of him he was a victim of well, you know? It wasn't just her. She wasn't just a victim of him.

He was a victim of everything. Yes. You know? All this kind of rage and resentment just rolls on. Mm. Kevin and Perry, was that... Oh, that was a lot later. A lot later, yeah. That was all later.

Although that was, I think, the same year that Nail by Mouth came out, maybe. You were doing your Kevin and Perry sketches on TV. Oh, we were doing them on the telly. But the film sort of came about... Because I got Best Actress at the Cannes Film Awards, you see. For Nail by Mouth. For Nail by Mouth. So suddenly I was sort of on a list of, suddenly I was a film actress, you know.

And I hadn't been seen for films before then. And so therefore suddenly you could get money to make films as well. to make films as well. And so Harry got in touch and said, look, we could now do Kevin and Perry the movie if you're up for it. And I jumped at the chance because I created Perry and I loved Perry. But it was so extraordinary at the time, Adam,

because there was such snobbery. Because now I was suddenly this serious actress. People couldn't believe I was then going to do Kevin and Perry. Uh-huh. You know? I should have been then going off to America and... Work with some difficult directors. Absolutely.

And I was like, but Perry's, like, the best part I've ever played. And he's mine. He belongs to me. So I'm never going to get a greater fucking acting role than Perry, you know? I love it when Perry gets back from Manchester. Oh, yes. And he's all mad for it. Mad for it, yeah.

What's up, Perry? How was Manchester? Yeah, you know, results are at't they? Top, mad for it. Did you go and see Oasis? I might have done, he's asking. Oh, me. Oh, yeah, right, so, aren't they? Top, mad for it. Were they great?

Yeah, they were great, you know, but I don't know, like, you know, cos I was so out of it, you know. Hello, Perry. Did you have a nice time in Manchester? Yes, thank you, Miss Pettis. Thank you, thank you. Gosh, you've drawn a little bit of a beard on how very grown up thank you well that came about from a true story that was me telling harry and paul because i used to go to manchester a lot as a little girl you see manchester and wigan i spent a lot of time up there and my brothers always found it hilarious that i'd come back with the northern accent you a lot as a little girl, you see. Manchester and Wigan. I spent a lot of time up there.

And my brothers always found it hilarious that I'd come back with a northern accent, you see. And I'd just pick it up, you know, and just be talking northern for a couple of weeks until it left me again, you know. And I remember my brothers, like, crying with laughter just hearing it, because I couldn't help it, you know. And so Paul and Harry thought this was a very cute idea for Perry you know maybe Perry's been in Manchester and he thinks he's Liam Gallagher

yeah you know and people love that sketch it's like the favorite of all the Kevin and Perry's it's great um and Harry's uh you know, Kevin's attempts to... Kevin's attempts. ...do the accent. And it's this kind of manglerised middle-class version of... Absolutely, yeah. ...the way he says speak. We did...

Yeah, it was quite difficult keeping a straight face... Yeah, yeah. ...during a lot of that stuff, really. The slobs more so. They were the tricky one. Yeah. to do. I mean, Harry Enfield, he is someone who's,

him and Paul have created so many characters that are, you know, that became in that Ali G way. Yeah. Sort of huge, important genre or era defining characters. They were brilliant social caricatures. The slobs, even though I didn't know anyone like the slobs,

but they were just very funny and I am smoking a fag. Oh God, yeah, that fucking catchphrase. What are you doing? I am smoking a fake yeah but capstan full strength that's because I'm smoking for two but did you get fed up with it after a while well I remember the first series all I did was the slobs you know um and that was it and then when they got in touch about a second series again it was just the slobs and um and I said no because I said I wanted to do other characters and not just waynetta um and I think Harry tried to call my bluff and said, well, I only want you to do Waynetter.

So I said, I'm not doing the show. Cast somebody else as her then. And so then Paul came round to see me and he went, Harry, he's a little bit upset. You know, you're not going to do Waynetter. I said, well, he can get someone else. I've only done one series. He went, I don't want no one else and i said well i ain't doing it he's got to give me other characters i said it's hard enough being a girl in this business i want other characters

and then paul remembered jonathan ross had a show that was like a sund night show and Vic and Bob were involved and Paul and Charlie Higson and it involved a weird game where we were all characters coming out of doorways, you know. It was so... I can't remember what it was called. It was so strange and it was live telly. And I remember sat with Paul Whitehouse, I was like, I want to do another character though, I can't... I don't know what to do.

And Paul said to me, have you ever thought of doing a little boy? So I was like, I want to do another character. I don't know what to do. And Paul said to me, have you ever thought of doing a little boy? You'd be good as doing a little boy. And I went, oh, that's a bit. I remember saying, that's a bit Jimmy Cranky. So I'm not going to do a little boy. And I went, but I could do a pubescent boy. And then I just come up with the voice breaking, you see.

Yeah. And so I literally went down to the costume department found a bit of a school uniform greased all my hair down and then I thought what can I call him so I phoned up my friend Perry Fennec who plays Billy in EastEnders and I phoned up Perry and I said look Perry I'm going to do this new character tonight is it all right if I call him Perry and he went yeah I ain't got a problem with that well neither of us knew that this would haunt him you know for the rest of his fucking life eventually you know and um and that's when I first did Perry so anyways so cut to a couple of years later when paul's around my flat trying to get me to do waynetta again he went i know because harry had done this character little brother who was in the first series who was this horrible little seven-year-old and paul said we're thinking of making him grow up into a

teenager and he went what if if your Perry was his mate? And I went, yeah, I'll do that. I'll do that. Yeah, all right. Perfect. And that was it. And that's how Kevin and Perry were born. Yeah.

So, but a lot of that, again, was down to Paul Whitehouse, like coming round, taking the time to talk to me, and then remembering this character, you know, oh, you should dig him out again. And I remember really enjoying doing him you see and then I just loved him and he's still my favorite of even all the serious work Perry is my favorite character that I've ever done and then again and apart from really doing Perry, you know, the roles were very... It was just boring what I was being sent. It was just fucking boring.

And I remember getting a script once and I thought, oh, this is interesting. I don't know, I think the film was made, but anyway, all I remember, the premise of this film was a boy who's a single parent, you know. They wanted me for the mum, obviously, this film was a boy who's a single parent, you know. They wanted me for the mum, obviously, but he becomes friends with the angel Gabriel.

So I said to my agent, I really like this script, but I want to play the angel Gabriel. And what came back was the angel Gabriel was a man. I was like, how the fuck do you know this? I mean, this is ridiculous yeah and especially when it's a fictitious fucking part you know and actually it was when that didn't work out and didn't go my way basically it wasn't that it didn't work out it was just basically i was turned down um i really thought why the fuck am I doing this? Why am I an actor? And yet all I'm getting sent are lovely, warm mums.

I'm not a lovely, warm mum. You know, why am I meant to understand this character more than somebody that might be a bloke, you know? And especially when, you know, people were saying about Kevin and Perry the film, what people loved about me being Perry is that you forget it's a woman. And I just got my agent, Stephen, round one day

and I just said, look, all this acting work is very nice, but it's getting in the way of me directing. So I had one more film lined up to do and I said I'll do that film but I'm not interested anymore and he fully expected me to say it which was great

and I thought it would last a couple of years and basically it's been over 10 years since I've been a jobbing actor so that you were saying no to tv and film you weren't just sort of thinking I'll just carry on doing bits on tv no no I said no to everything yeah everything that was coming in it was like no I didn't even want to look at anything so that was it was gimme gimme gimme one of the last long yeah I mean I've done gimme um and um which I

loved as well. And that was quite difficult when that was started out. Because, again, it was what people expected me to do. They didn't expect me to then be in this gross, over-the-top camp show, you know? And we had a fucking great time doing it. I mean, I think a lot of the problem was the critics absolutely hated it. Well, it was unfashionably broad. And the tone of it was...

I mean, now you look at it, it looks totally at home next to things that Vic and Bob do and things that Graham Linehan does. But then it was, yeah. It was too much. People were... Because it was sort of hitting at the same time as the royal family, you see. Right.

So that was super realism. Absolutely. And the majority of people just seemed to hate it. I mean, you say that, obviously they didn't because it had a huge audience. Yeah. I mean, my mum, she was totally on totally on board well it seemed to me that people that weren't in the business loved it right the business hated it but you got your comedy award and you did your funny speech at the comedy oh yes put us out of a misery who's won kathy burke Kathy Burke. Yes!

Now, Kathy Burke got the taste for acting at the famous Anne Sher Stage School in London. Her first big film break came at the age of 17. On TV, though, she's best known for comedy in shows like Ab Fab and Harry Enfield and Chums. Tonight, she's nominated for the part of Linda LaHughes in BBC comedy Gimme, Gimme, Gimme, an overweight, loudmouth lady who believes that she is gorgeous and irresistible. Oh, this is nice. It's about fucking time, innit?

You know what I mean? How long is it? My God. Thank you very much. I'm really chuffed. It's one fuck-all Gimme Gimme. Everyone hates it. Apart from the public, I had a cab driver today who said, my wife's just like that character Pauline.

I say, well, you're just like her, and he said she hates it as a compliment. I think we've all got to, you know, leave the grouch home and just sit at home and watch telly like normal people and then you'll appreciate it. I just like being a cunt sometimes, you see. It wasn't cunty. It was funny.

It was. What was the cunty thing in your mind? Well, just, I like this sort of arrogance that I have, you know. Because you got up and you said it's about time. Yeah, yeah. And it was about time. Yeah. It was my defending gimme, gimme, gimme.

Right. You know, and that's what i won it for so it was great to you know i did have a bit of a defiance in me and at that time i remember steven merchant came up to me they were just getting the office off the ground and said oh we're trying to get you in our comedy thing in our new thing the office and i said well i'm only gonna i only want to do gimme gimme because i'm in my head after gimme that was it i was going to stop acting and steven merchant said to me he said yeah but that's shit that's what he said to me i said well you're a charmer i said well you might

think it's shit but i know a lot of people that really love it so I'm only going to do that and good luck with your little show but I have no regrets about that I don't look back and think ah shucks I could have been in the office you know not at all because I'm a great fan of comedy so I don't really watch things that I'm in

so you know do you still watch a lot of TV and comedy? I do. I mean, not as much. What's engaged you recently? The only thing that makes me laugh my fucking head off is either You've Been Framed or Big Brother. Ah.

You know. You've Been Framed is... You've Been Framed is great. So good. And it's one of those things that sometimes people just use as a byword for crap TV. Yeah. And I just think there are times when Big Brother is absolutely hilarious. Did you watch the series when they had Barrymore in there?

I mean, that, I think, was, in my mind mind approaching a kind of level of shakespearean drama and well that was when galloway went oh poor me poor me pour me a drink pour me a drink oh my chilling it was it was chilling it was also that series where somebody had said something that was obviously borderline racist do you know what I mean and it was out of order and there was a big discussion so they had a big group meeting about what was racist what wasn't and that this had got to be cut out whatever it was you know it's got to stop you know racism was bad racism was bad and literally about a moment later a minute later Rula Lenska was in there and somebody said something to Rula Lenska about somebody else and Rula Lenska went no she went you lying Arab

I was like this is fucking brilliant and then she was she was horrified at herself. I just thought, this, it couldn't be better. You couldn't script it, you know. Just fucking great. And that was the same series, you've got Preston on there, right? Oh, that's right. And the little girl one who wasn't a celebrity. What was her name again?

Chantel. Chantel, yeah. You've got Preston and Chantel. You've got Pete Burns with his coat that turned out to have been made from some protected creature. Was it some gorilla or something? Right. It was a gorilla coat. That's what made it a gorilla fur. It became a legal matter.

Absolutely. They were going to arrest him when they found out. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was crazy. I mean, I couldn't believe it when Channel 4 got rid of it. And I was like, what's going to happen, what's going to happen and for me it's great that it's on Channel 5 because it's really base now

it's the only reality show I watch I don't really watch, I've never seen TOWIE I've never seen The Only Way's Chelsea or whatever it's called, what's it called? Made in Chelsea Made in Chelsea, how about I'm a Celebrity? Oh I watched that That? Oh, I watched that. That's pretty enjoyable. I watched that.

Because again, there was another vintage year when John Lydon was in there. Yeah. And Jordan and Peter Andre. But he left early, didn't he, Lydon? He did. Yeah, he got fed up. It was very sad when he went. It was a bit.

Have you ever come across him? No, no. I walked past him once when I was a bit have you ever come across him no no i walked past him once when i was a little girl and i remember because he's he's about three years four years older than me and um so i was a sort of plastic punk as they used to call them you know i was a punk at the weekends and uh time punk yeah and um i remember walking past the open anchor, and I thought, cramps, Johnny Rotten, there's Johnny Rotten. Because he was sat outside on the window ledge having a pint, you know. And I walked past, and I thought, oh, God, what do I do, what do I do?

So I went past again, and this time he saw me, you know, and I had safety pins on my uniform and all that business. And so he said, hello, little girl. And I went, fuck off, rotten. Which he was like, well done, well done, like that. And that was it. I was thrilled with myself. and so nowadays you are mainly doing theater yeah theatre directing writing um like i say i've popped back now and again and done a couple of acting roles yes i think because i like being older you

see so you could be more character yeah you know yeah i did tinker taylor yeah um and i did that because of the director, Thomas Alfredson, because he'd let the right one in. And it was the only time since I stopped acting that I phoned the agent and said, if ever this guy gets in touch, I'm interested, not thinking it would ever happen. And then about a year later, Stephen phoned up and said, who was that guy, that Swedish director you liked? I said, Thomas Alfredson.

He said, he's doing a film, he wants to meet you. And then when I realised the part he wanted me for, he wanted me for Connie, who's a great character, and it was then that I found out Gary was doing Smiley. So I hadn't seen Gary for years, you know nil by now fred he was up for the awards and that and um and he you know i said hello darling he went on we're together again and i went yeah yeah and he went how long have you acted when was the last time you acted i went 10 years he went blimey right and then he went oh he said i'm very nervous darling i'm very nervous so i thought oh here we fucking go again it's all about him you know

so i just had to just chill my boots and forget about any of my fears and just sort of be supportive yeah because i'm suppose i'm a bit like i remind him of his family which is why he's always liked me you say yeah yeah um well it's really important to have people like that in those sorts of environments sometimes it can really change the chemistry of the thing it's like when yeah it's like when billy preston started hanging out with the beatles yeah yeah and And when they were doing Let It Be and there was all acrimony between them and suddenly this guy turns up who's really easygoing and fun

and they all behaved themselves when he was around. That's it, yeah. So it's nice. And you and I saw each other in Salford doing 8 Out Of 10 Cats This Countdown. Oh my goodness, that's right. I wasn't in your episode, though. No, yeah, they do two a night, don't they?

That's it, but I saw yours, and that was very funny, what you did. And it was all the stuff online. Oh yeah, the YouTube comments. That's it. That was great. Speaking of life online, how do you enjoy that aspect of the modern world?

You recently joined Twitter, and i follow you on there and i occasionally see you gleefully um telling someone that they've been cunt blocked yep you know what i really really like it um i've avoided any i've not been part of Facebook or anything like that um anyway a friend of mine was around uh Frankie Francis Barber who's a brilliant actress and uh and she'd been on Twitter for a couple of years and you know and she'd made friends and gone out and met people for drinks and you know and was having a great time on it. You know, also went through a bit of a difficult time, but sort of dealt with all that, you know.

And we were both a bit pissed, you know what I mean? And she said, come on. And I went, oh, fuck it, all right, then I'll get on Twitter. So I got on it, and I think my first tweet was fuck off, which was an accident, because I was trying to rig it up, you know, and I was like, fuck off, frustrated. And all of a sudden it was out there, fuck off, you know. But the first couple of months I got very bored

because I didn't really know how to do it, you know. And I was like, oh, fuck this, I'm bored, this is shit, I'm going, you know. And the first thing I suppose that got to me was that nobody gave a fuck. One person was like, oh, that's a shame, see you soon. I mean, nobody gave a shit. And I thought, right, this is all quite quick and nobody cares. So maybe it is for me. So I went back on it. And then I think it is I should so I went back on it and then I think

it was the first time I sort of got trolled and somebody sent me a photo of their shit and I was like you dirty bastard you know what I mean so I tweeted about this yeah you know what is that I've never heard of that oh my god it's different if you're a woman it's really interesting what you're sent as a woman. Oh, yeah. I've had two people's shits. I've had countless photographs of cocks. But I just ignore them. It's so easy to just ignore it, you know?

You say that. I think that's upsetting. Well, I'm quite tough. And I am 51. But I've never sort of... You can sort of grab what somebody said and hold it up and go, look at this bastard. But a lot of the time, that's what they want. They want the attention.

Sure. They want, you know, to get into a row. And, yeah, they want you to engage. Exactly. So I sort of don't do that. I've only done it... I did it a couple of weeks ago. Some Tory got onto me, you know what I mean?

And started having a pop. So I just fucking had a pop back until they fucked off, you know? Was that David Cameron? No, it wasn't David Cameron. Piers Morgan's tried to start a fight. I just fucking ignored him. Piers Morgan? What was he trying to fight about?

What was he fighting about? Oh, because, oh, because somebody had put up r.i.p tony hart this seems to be a running joke on there you know poor old tony hart died in 2009 right so this was a couple of months ago somebody puts up r.i.p tony hart so pierce morgan doesn't do his research as a journalist and does one of his. And people love being the first one to say, I'm so sorry about the death of Tony Hart. They do. So he did that.

And then obviously within half an hour, he realised this was a joke. So then he puts out a tweet. Some people think it's funny to do this on the internet. It isn't. So I thought, oh thought oh yes it is because what's funny is that twats like him just tweet before fucking taking the time to find out whether this person has just died or has in fact been dead for the last six years yes it's just a knee jerk this will make me me look sensitive. Absolutely. And that's what it is. And there's a lot of that stuff goes on there, you know.

That's the only thing that drives me mad about it, is people not getting the joke. You say that's the only thing, but that is one of the defining characteristics of Twitter, is the levels of misunderstanding that occur because you've got the 140 characters and it's very, I mean, it's much harder to be clearly understood than it is to be misunderstood.

Absolutely. Well, my latest one, where I got fucking... You know, people going, how dare you... And luckily I just ignored it. I thought, I'm not going to make even more fools out of people that are already foolish, you know what I mean? I don't like bullying, so I'm not going to make even more fools out of people that are already foolish. You know what I mean? I don't like bullying, so I'm not going to.

And it was, you know, this thing Making a Murderer that's been on, the big Netflix thing. Did you do spoilers or something? No, I didn't. I just put Making a Murderer. There's 10 hours I won't get back. It's a joke, you know? The guy, Stephen Avery won't get 18 years back how dare you didn't i was just like oh

you cunt so then i tweeted regarding my last tweet read it with the voice of tim vine in your edge you're fucking cunts you know what i mean so have i got to explain have i got to put joke in brackets every time i make a joke yes is the answer well I refuse you know it's like I'd rather just people go I'm following okay it gives a shit you know but then what's interesting what I do like about it is that I because I am totally myself on it and when I first started on there people were really offended by me and somebody tweeted I thought you were a nice person. I went, well, you thought wrong. And that's what I like about it, is that you can, I feel, I can be myself, you know. And because somebody said to me, I don't like the fact you use the C word all the time.

And I'm like, well, I'm sorry, but I do. I really like the word cunt. I've never associated it with my vagina. I've mostly associated it with people that are fucking assholes you know yeah so that's the way i use it and so my biog now says my language can be found because it's like if you don't like what i'm saying just don't follow me you know yeah um and some people michael crick you know? Yeah. And some people... Michael Crick, you know the guy that does the reporting for Channel 4 News? Oh, yeah.

You know, running around in the glasses, always chasing MPs. He blocked me the other night, which was sort of great, really, because he did a tweet complaining about how quick the credits were at the end of War and Peace. You know, he was very disgusted with this, with the BBC. So I just put posh twat, poor twat, tight twat, best boy.

Next thing, you are blocked by Michael Crick. I thought, why has he blocked me? But then that was great, because then I tweeted that I'm blocked by him, you know. He blocked me within seconds. So I never... It takes me days to realise that somebody said something about me or sent a message or used, quoted my tweet. You know what I mean?

I mean, it takes a lot for me to block someone. I'm not encouraging people to challenge me. No. Because I prefer... When I'm on Twitter, I just go for the quiet life you know I try not to say anything particularly controversial because it's too exhausting because you think

if people misunderstand me I don't like being misunderstood you know really it sort of upsets me so if someone gets the wrong end of the stick or I feel that they've unfairly taken something I've said and seen it the wrong way,

then I'm going to spend the rest of the day trying to talk them round. Oh, see, no, I couldn't give a shit. Because the one thing I've got from it is that it has made me laugh every day. It has infuriated me every day, but also made me laugh every day. I sort of feel like I've made some great pals on there you know one of them I've

met up with a couple of times I'm going to get a little gang round at some point you know people that like each other that are following each other and you're going to sit there and tweet at each other yeah but it'll be interesting to see people without their phones in their hands you know um i might actually when they all arrive i

might make them put their phones in a box right you know we're not allowed our phones in a bowl until you know in a bowl yeah that oh no i don't want to frighten them off but um i did have a meltdown i had one bad night and it was the Paris attacks. Right. I had a bad night. And you just drank a load of wine and... I was pissed, yeah. I'm a vodka drinker.

Right, okay. And, yeah, and I think it was a combination, being too drunk, being really upset by what was happening, but hating just the soundbites. I was out of order. I was out of order, you know, and just telling people to fuck off and Stig Abel, the editor of The Sun, you know,

he was immediately putting stuff out. This is, we're at World War again. I went, oh, fuck off, you ambitious, self-serving cunt i mean i was just like i mean so stupid so stupid but amongst it people were tweeting me kathy kathy stop tweeting kathy go to bed kathy you know i mean i mean? I mean, mortifying. Mortifying, really. And the next day, you know when you wake up the next day and you're like... And it gradually comes back to you. Oh, shit. Oh, dear.

I haven't had a night like that since, like, I used to drink in the 80s. Do you know what I mean? And you've woken up and you've fucked someone that you swore you would never fuck. You know what I mean? It was like that. It was like I'd fucked all of Twitter you know I'd had a big gang bang with Twitter and I was like oh fuck you know what do I do about this so what could I do I just tweeted an apology with a little red face I love the emojis you know

little red face sorry I think I might have offended a few people last night for this I apologize but yeah so that was my bad bad night this is an advert for Squarespace. Every time I visit your website, I see success. Yes, success. The way that you look at the world makes the world want to say yes. It looks very professional. I love browsing your videos and pics, and I don't want to stop. And I'd like to access your members area and spend in your shop. These are the kinds of comments people will say about your website if you build it with Squarespace.

Just visit squarespace.com slash Buxton for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, because you will want to launch, use the offer code Buxton to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. So put the smile of success on your face with Squarespace. Yes. Kathy Burke, thank you very much indeed to her for her time. And it was so nice getting to hang out with her. I really did feel quite privileged to be able to do so.

And I do hope that our paths cross again. I hope maybe she might even come back on this podcast and just ramble some more at some future point. Next week, my guest on the podcast will be Garth Jennings, old friend and previous guest on the podcast. I'll be talking to him about how his first appearance impacted upon his life. Because, of course, he was quite candid about a run-in that he'd had with his father-in-law on that podcast. So I asked him about whether there was any pushback from that. Pushback. I'm using jargon. I love to use jargon. Rosie, you're not supposed to go in that field.

That's Dangerfield. That is Rodney Dangerfield. Get out of there, Rosie. There's thuggish animals in there of all kinds and farm machinery that is not conducive to the welfare of small furry dogs rose come on oh all right i've got to go and deal with the rose rosy situation i just nearly emasculated myself on some brambles there it's all kicking off in the countryside thank you very much indeed for

listening thanks so much to matt lamont for edit help this week and to seamus murphy mitchell for general producer type support till next we're together be very careful out there take care i love you bye rosie rosie come on you wally out the rodney no respect Bye.