THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.158 - ISABEL ALLENDE

Episode Date: August 28, 2021

Adam talks with Chilean writer Isabel Allende about lockdown marriage stress, feminism, infidelity and growing old with wisdom. Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for his work on this episodePodcast artwork by Helen GreenRELATED LINKSCOVIDAID - THE UK'S NEW NATIONAL COVID 19 CHARITYFIFTH SENSE - ADVICE AND SUPPORT FOR PEOPLE AFFECTED BY SMELL AND TASTE DISORDERSDESCRIPT - 'ALL IN ONE AUDIO AND VIDEO EDITING AS EASY AS A DOC'REVIEW OF 'LONG PETAL OF THE SEA' - 2021 (GUARDIAN)ESTHER PERREL - RETHINKING INFIDELITY (TED TALK) - 2015 (YOUTUBE)ISABEL ALLENDE - THE PRICE OF PASSION - 2021 (ELLE)ISABEL ALLENDE INTERVIEW RE. SOUL OF A WOMAN - 2021 (GUARDIAN)THE ISABEL ALLENDE FOUNDATION TOP 10 BOOKS ABOUT GROWING OLD  - 2017 (YEP, IT'S THE GUARDIAN AGAIN) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human folk Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan. Rosie. Rosie's just standing there looking at me on the track.

We're just outside the house. Normally she's bounding off up the track, but every now and again she just sort of goes, not really feeling it. And today's one of those days. It's a bit windy and overcast. And Rosie's just looking around going, mm, nope.

What is going on in your dog mind? You are inscrutable today. You want to go back in? Or what? What's up, doggy? I love you. She's sniffing a bit. Is there something unpleasant on the air? Apart from me? I wouldn't know because I can't smell nothing. She's not having it. Okay, hang on a second, listeners. I'm just going to take Rosie back in.

All right, there you go, Rosie. Well, what are you... Now she's coming out again. What's going on? She's like, yeah, all right, I'll come. Now she's come back out again. What's going on? She's like, yeah, all right, I'll come. Now she's come back out again. You are the mystery dog. Everyone's in a weird mood at the moment here at Castle Buckles. I guess that includes Rosie. What is it? I don't know. Everything just feels a bit bleak and oppressive. The weather, the news, obviously. But how are you doing, listeners? Hope you're not letting things get on top of you and you're up for a bit of a ramble. But how are you, Buckles? How's your COVID, you poor, poor man?

Oh, no, I don't really like to talk about myself. It's been really bad. Over two weeks now with COVID-19 and I'm out of quarantine, so that's a good thing. No longer contagious. Last week, I really thought I was going to cruise through it. But it's insidiously persistent every day you just think like oh i don't feel i still feel bad low energy everything's an effort you feel kind of faint and light-headed a lot taste and smell still knackered but there's a little bit there. Every day I smell a tiny bit more. Yesterday I think I nearly smelt one of my farts and it was very joyous. But look, it's a very meandery introduction to this podcast. Let's get back on track. Let me tell you about my guest for

podcast number 158. The world's most widely read Spanish language author. I get the feeling that's one of those things that maybe was asserted in an article at some point about my guest. And now it just gets repeated and trotted out on introductions like this one. But I imagine that she's got to be at least one of the world's most widely read Spanish language authors, Isabel Allende. Allende facts. Isabel was born in Peru in 1942 and raised in Chile, or Chile, to use the proper pronunciation, which I kind of skid in and out of in our conversation. Chile is the world's longest country that stretches 3,200 miles in a thin strip down the east coast of South America. The Chilean poet Pablo Neruda called his homeland a long petal of sea and wine and snow. A description that inspired the title of Isabel's most recent novel, Long Petal of the Sea.

That novel is the story of a young Spanish couple, Victor Dalmau and Roser Bruguera, who are forced to become refugees when General Franco installs himself as dictator of Spain in 1939 at the end of the Spanish Civil War. Victor and Roser board the SS Winnipeg, the ship chartered by Pablo Neruda, to transport thousands of refugees to a new life in Chile. Just a few years after arriving in Chile, Victor and Roser have their lives turned upside down again, this time as the result of the Chilean military coup of 1973, in which Salvador Allende, Isabel's first cousin once removed, became the first democratically elected Marxist leader in Latin America. This historical event, the military coup in 1973, oh, it's really raining now.

Put up my hood. Anyway, yes, the military coup was a pivotal event for Isabel Allende. She was in her 30s at the time, living and working in Chile as a journalist on a magazine called Paola that regularly featured stories with a feminist perspective out of step with mainstream media at the time. When President Salvador Allende was assassinated in the days after the military coup,

or took his own life, depending on who you believe, Isabel was one of those who helped dissidents escape the repressive regime of General Augusto Pinochet, though after a few months she too was forced to flee Chile. With her first husband and their two young children, Isabel went into exile in Venezuela, up on the top of South America where she lived for the next 17 years. In 1981, Isabel wrote her first novel,

inspired by anecdotes told to her by her grandfather. The House of the Spirits told the story of a Chilean family across several generations and was a runaway success. Since then, a further 24 fiction and non-fiction books by Isabel Allende have been published, including Of Love and Shadows, Eva Luna, Paola, and In the Midst of Winter. In 2019, Isabel, who recently celebrated her 79th birthday, was married for the third time and now lives with her husband in California. Her daughter Paola, in California. Her daughter, Paula, for whom she wrote the book of the same name, died in 1992, aged 29, from complications resulting from kidney disease. But her son, Nicolas, lives not far from his mother in California and was on hand to ensure that her Zoom connection was behaving itself for our conversation. Although at the very

beginning of our conversation, for the first few seconds, the line is kind of crappy, but it settles down very quickly. I talked with Isabel about, among other things, managing domestic relations in lockdown, Rosie, what to do with inherited possessions and feminism which has always been central to isabel's identity she established the isabel allende foundation in order to support the cause of women and girls securing reproductive rights economic independence and freedom from violence but despite the serious nature of many of the struggles associated with feminism, Isabel has always been one of those people able to discuss them frankly and often humorously, as she does in her book The Soul of a Woman, published earlier this year.

One of the themes that pops up in that book and in Long Petal of the Sea is infidelity within a marriage. And Isabel reflects on her own infidelity and the subject in general in The Soul of a Woman and in our conversation with typical candor. She also shared with me a few words of wisdom about growing older and was in general sparky, sharp and good fun to talk to. Back with you at the end for a little bit more waffle, but right now with Isabel Allende. Here we go. Hello, how are you? Okay, Nico, it's fine. Okay, this is my son on the phone so that I can connect with you. It's just a mess. Thank you, Nico.

Okay. Ciao. I know. Ciao. Muchas gracias, Nico. Yeah, he's my techie. Everybody needs a techie nowadays. You know what? If you are over 20, you need a techie.

I mean, kids can do it. It's amazing. It is. I think everyone needs an IT person and a doctor in their lives and maybe a lawyer. And a dog. And a plumber and a dog. First a dog, then all those people, and then maybe a husband or a wife. Yeah. Okay. Now, the only thing that I'm worried about, though, is that I think if the microphone

is the one on your headphones, then it is hitting your necklace. Okay. I'll take it off that's much better thank you it feels uh unusually rude to ask a guest to remove their jewelry at the very beginning of the conversation i'm sorry as long as I don't have to remove my clothes, it's fine. Let's see how it goes. At my age, you can't remove your clothes very easily. Well, thank you so much for talking to me. It's a real pleasure to meet you. You are out in California. Is that right? Yeah. Northern California near San Francisco. How long have you lived there? Since 1987. When I came on a book tour to the United States, I fell in lust with an American guy who was living in California and I moved to his house without an invitation, thinking that I could

get him out of my system in a week. We were married for 28 years. Okay. That's what happened. So I'm here. Is that a good technique for getting people out of your system to move in with them for a week? Has that worked before? No, I was young and willing to take all kinds of risks. I don't know. My current husband, Roger, did the same thing. He just moved to my house with the idea, in his case, that it would last. My thinking was, well, if it doesn't last, it doesn't matter. Then we have nothing to lose. He can go back. You are now married for the third time though, right? Yes.

Is it too late to say congratulations? married for the third time though right yes is it too late to say congratulations no it's never too late especially after the pandemic you know when when our love has really been tested yes because we are in this extended honeymoon locked in for 15 months and when we met we already had a lot of baggage. And this pandemic has forced us to share a very small house in a sort of very particular dance in which we have to move around without stepping on each other's toes. And it's working beautifully. What about you? What about me? It's okay.

I mean, I'm the kind of man that has to struggle not to get irritated by very small things, pathetic things. At the moment, the thing that is frustrating me about domestic life is that we have drawers where the cutlery goes. And we have three big drawers. And we have three big drawers. And a couple of weeks ago, I did a big tidy up and I put all the cutlery in the top drawer. And in the one underneath, I put all the things like peelers, can openers, random chopsticks from takeaways, things like that. Rubber bands, you know, all that. But no one is respecting the system. And every day I open the top drawer, and there's a peeler in there with a cutlery. And that that's the kind of thing that

drives me nuts. Everything else is okay. Oh, Lord, you have a long way to go. Thank God you are young. But let me tell you, that's not going to make your life easy. But let me tell you, that's not going to make your life easy. You know, what I have learned in the pandemic, really, in this living together under stressful circumstances, is to let go. Yeah. Let go of the trivial, the things that don't really matter, and just focus on the big issues. Climate change, fascism, and forget the socks on the dining room table, because it doesn't matter, really. Yeah, of course you're right.

But conversations about climate change and fascism, depending on who you're having them with, also have the potential to cause some problems. Yeah, but that's worth it, you know? Yeah, I guess so. You fight with a knife between your teeth for things that are essential to you. But the little stuff, I let go. You rise above all of it? Most of it. Amazingly, most of it. Hmm. That's very impressive. Well, but I've learned this. I mean, it's a skill that I am perfectioning. Okay. What were the flashpoints for you then? Or maybe there were none in the last year.

A lot, especially at the beginning. Sometimes I felt that there was like sand in the air, irritating every cell of my body. One thing, for example, a stupid thing, Roger has bad posture. And that irritates me. When I see him walking like an old man, I get angry. And then suddenly, I just went into my head and said, I'm not going to be able to change this.

Is this so important that I don't want to be with him? Or I can live with it. And it doesn't bother me anymore. And I'm sure that there are many things about me that bother him. For example, I am obsessed with punctuality. If we are going out, I say we are leaving at 8.45, and if at 8.46 he's not in the car, I get frustrated. I have to let go of that because it doesn't matter, five minutes more or less. That's a tough one, though.

It's a tough one. He loves my dogs. He's kind. He's funny. That's fine. What else do I want? That's good. I've been very much enjoying reading your two most recent books, Long Petal of the Sea and Soul of a Woman. Congratulations on those. Thank you. And Soul of a Woman is an account of your journey as a feminist via various pivotal moments and relationships in your life. And towards the end of Long Petal of the Sea, the novel published a couple of years ago, one of the main characters, Victor, finds himself taking stock for the first time really in his life, aged around 80, and he wishes that he'd

done it before. Do you feel you're in stock-taking mode in your life at the moment? I am in a changing mode. I feel that this is a time for big changes I don't look back analyzing much what I've done because I can't help it it's done and I did it with the knowledge at the time that I had if I had been in my 40s

the person I am today I would have made other decisions but I wasn't so I cannot judge myself for anything that I did in the past. Just accept it. And if I have hurt somebody, try to mend it. That's all I can do. But now I am at a stage in which I know that my days are counted.

All our days are counted, always. But as you reach 70 70 and I am 78, you realize that, I don't know, I visualize my life as a calendar. And every day I take out a page. And that page is gone and done. I will never be able to go back to it. So I want that page to be good.

And so when I say that this is a time for changing, it's a time to accommodate to this new stage in my life with joy. And it's not easy because old age is not easy ever. And it's even harder for a woman most of the time because we start becoming invisible around 50. By the time you are 70, you are a non-entity, really. So to cope with all that and have an inner life and the capacity for joy, I think that's what I'm doing now, trying to change.

Yeah. I mean, I suppose the value of looking back and taking stock at whatever point in your life is that it might inform your future decisions and whatever time you have left. And maybe you can learn from your mistakes. I guess that's the thing that we all hope to do. You have been the subject of a three-part miniseries made by a Chilean production company shown recently on HBO Max in the States. It's called Isabel, starring Daniela Ramirez. And you watched it, I think. Yeah. What was it like watching the TV version of your life? Well, you know, they pick up the highlights and the very low lights. So all the grays in between,

which is most of life, really, are lost, and it doesn't matter. Nobody's interested. So I watched it, unfortunately, in a very emotional state because the first episode starts with my daughter in the hospital in a coma. And that sets the mood for a lot of what happens in the series. My son has not been able to watch it either because of that scene. He doesn't know that the end of the movie is

Paula's death, which is done in a very dignified and respectful way. So I watched it and I was happy that they had chosen my life to invest talent and time and money. I don't know. It didn't affect me much. No. I liked it. So it didn't give you, I mean, are you someone that thinks about your legacy? No, I don't believe in legacy.

That's a penis word. Men think in terms of legacy and transcendence and women are more realistic. Nobody's going to remember me except maybe my grandchildren once in a while. That's it. A penis word. I think you're probably right about that. It's a weird thing, isn't it? But I mean, it's, if you don't see it in male-female terms, it's an understandable impulse to reach for some kind of immortality, don't you think? No. No. Why not? Because immortality doesn't exist. You might have a statue somewhere. Who cares? You're dead.

Who cares? Of course, you're right from a rational point of view, but... No, from a human, emotional point of view also. Think about it, Adam. I have thought about it, and I definitely agree with you, and I think people who talk about their legacies are often full of shit, but I do sort of understand it. If you were remembered, the idea that you would be remembered for being a bad person or someone who was on the wrong side of history or something like that, that's not a good feeling, though, is it? I don't know. In my life, I have been guided by one mantra. Do to others what you want them to do to you. And of course, I have done bad things

and I have hurt people. But in general, I have tried not to. And I have a foundation that does work helping women and girls. And if there is any legacy, I hope that I might have improved a little bit the lives of some people that I have touched through my work as a writer or in the foundation. But that's going to disappear as well. Nobody's going to remember that anyhow. So I just want to die in peace feeling that I have not damaged the earth or other people too much. And, you know, one of the things that I am discovering in old age is how little I need. The material world interests me less and less. I don't want stuff. I don't want clutter. I don't want your

drawers full of cutlery. I want two knives and two forks. I want to reduce the needs to the bare essential. What if you need chopsticks? You get them in the Chinese restaurant and then you throw them away. We got some spare ones if you need them. You know, my parents died recently. I'm sorry to hear that. She was 98, and he was 102. Wow. So they lived very long lives. And my mother was a compulsive buyer, a very elegant and refined woman.

That's a house where every day the table was set with silverware and crystal and well served. So there was a lot of stuff. She died and I couldn't get rid of all the stuff because nobody wanted it. Nobody wants to be polishing silver or vacuum rugs. Nobody. There's no place for a grand piano anywhere or big paintings. I had difficulty for months to give away everything until finally I could get rid of it. And I thought, what the heck? I don't want my son to go through this when I die. So I came home to give away rapidly everything that is not essential. And I still have too much. It's incredible.

I know. I've become slightly the same way with sort of practical hiking wear. We're out in the country here. Where do you live? We live in East Anglia, Norfolk. Yeah. So it's very rural where we are. And the only place I've been in the last six, seven months is the supermarket.

And to drop my children off at school every now and again. And then I go walking with the dog. And I just wear the same stuff every day. Exactly. Fleece wear. Fleece wear. stuff every day. Exactly. Fleece wear. Fleece wear. Practical wear. Yeah.

What kind of dog do you have? Rosie is a half whippet and a half a poodle. That's weird. A weird mix. Yeah. What would you call that? A pipette? A woodle.

I don't know. But she's beautiful. She's like, she has that lean build of a whippet, but a bit fuller in the front part of her body. Her fur is not curly like a poodle. It's shaggy. And she's now getting the same coloring that I am. The same.

How cute. The white beard. Is she around? Can I look at her oh she's not she's over in the main house actually I'm I'm in the barn yeah um I wonder if I have a photograph of her oh hang on yeah I do that's Rosie there oh she's gorgeous how about you do you have a dog with you at the moment I have two mutts and one of them looks like a bat but she's gorgeous. How about you? Do you have a dog with you at the moment? I have two mutts and one of them looks like a bat but she's very smart. And you that's the one that you inherited from your second husband is that right? Yes yes. And what's her name? Perla. Perla okay. And the other

one is called Dulce. Which means sweet. Yeah. But who has the sweetest temperament? Perla. The other one is a real bitch. I mean, she's an arrogant and titled bitch. Do they get to sleep in your bedroom? Of course, on my bed. Sure. There's nothing better than to wake up in the morning between two dogs and a husband. Really great.

How does your husband feel about that? Is he in agreement? He loves the dogs, fortunately. All right, good. It's funny hearing you talk about that process of dealing with your mother's possessions. I mean, that has been my life now for, well, my mother died last year. So that's been my life for the last few months. And now that the restrictions over here in the UK are relaxing a little bit I'm finally able to start distributing some of the boxes of her stuff to the charity shops and I have to go to lots of different ones because I can't just I've got you know hundreds of boxes so I can't just dump them all in just one place and uh i'm imagining people going into these charity

shops and just finding this incredible stuff because my mom loved all her clothes and fashion and everything but what do i do with it i mean i've already spoken to friends and i have a sister and so she's taken the stuff that she wants but But what do you do with a whole box full of belts and handbags and things like that? Yeah, I know. But yes, you're completely right. The whole process has made me think, I don't want my children to have to do this. Or you don't want to live with that clutter either. No, exactly.

You don't. Was it difficult, though, from a sentimental point of view? I get the impression from Soul of a Woman that your childhood was difficult because your father left when you were quite young. And you're ambivalent in some ways about the way that your mother behaved thereafter. Is that fair? Yes, I adored my mother. mother behaved thereafter. Is that fair? Yes, I adored my mother. But because of the family in which she was born, the social class in which she was born, and the time she was born in 1920, she was aggressively dependent. So she needed a lot of things. And she could not provide for

herself. She always needed someone else to pay the bills. And that, of course, creates resentment, but makes you submissive, because if you don't have economic independence, you don't have any kind of independence then. So my mother was smart. She was creative. She was a good artist. And she couldn't develop any of that, because she was expecting someone else to take care of her. So my ambivalence

with her was that I wanted to liberate her from that without understanding that that would have been impossible. It wasn't in her character and it wasn't in her generation either, but I could do it for myself. So there was a point in life when we coincided, when she understood what my struggle was all about. And I think she wished she would have done it too. But she lived vicariously through me the things that she would have liked to achieve. She warned you occasionally when you were younger that you were taking a path that would be difficult for you. Is that right? Oh, she said you will get a lot of aggression and you will pay a very high price. And then later in life, I said, Mom, it wasn't a high price. It

was very cheap for what I got. I would do it a thousand times again. Do you think that if your father hadn't been someone that left and your childhood had been a little more stable and conventional, that you wouldn't have turned into the person that you are now? Look, if I was born with long legs, I wouldn't be the person that I am today. So that's a completely useless, useless proposition. This is who I am today so that's a completely useless useless proposition Adam this is who I am this is what my life has been what I don't have the long legs I don't have a father so that's the way the way it is I was so pleased with that question I thought this is great this is a great one because I guess what I was getting at was I suppose I'm interested in the extent to which your sense of feminism and independence as a woman was informed by kind of anger at your father for not being there.

It came, I think the idea of feminism, which wasn't called feminism at that time, I had never heard the word, but the anger at male authority and the patriarchy was very clear to me because of my mother's situation. I saw my mother almost as a victim. I know a victim is someone who doesn't have a way out. And my mother probably had some ways out of her situation that she didn't take. and my mother probably had some ways out of her situation that she didn't take but the anger was to see her so vulnerable not only her but also the maids that worked in the house at that time in houses like the household of my grandfather you would have two or three living in help. There were usually very, very poor women who worked for a pittance, who worked many hours a day, who had absolutely no standing in the world of any kind.

Most of them didn't even have a personal life because they were not married, they didn't have their own children, they just served a family. And I was absolutely aware since I was really, really young of how unfair that was. And it was always women. We didn't have male servants in the house, only women. And they were, although poor, they were as vulnerable as my mother. And that was clear to me, very clear. And that was something that you felt instinctively, it wasn't, or was it the result of one particular incident? Because did you know other families? And did you have other friends that were living a similar life to yours? This

is a kind of middle class, upper middle class life in Chile. Yeah. So presumably most of the people you knew were living similar lives, right? Yeah, of course. And then there were the farms, the fincas, where even the campesinos were treated very poorly. So that awareness of how unfair the world was, I had it very clearly from very early on. But it's interesting because both my brothers have it too. So what was it that gave us that awareness so young? Either we heard things, because what I would hear from my, not my mother, but from my grandfather would be, well, I'm really sorry, but this is the way the world is.

He wouldn't say God made it this way because he was not that stupid. But that was the idea, that you cannot change society, that it's been like this for thousands of years. I'm really sorry that it's been like this for thousands of years. I'm really sorry that it's this way. But I was a good reader, and I knew that things change. Humanity is able to make changes. So I became aware that with enough work, we can make changes. And that's what I wanted.

I wanted change first for my life. I don't even want that life. And then that extended to other lives as well. And then a more specific awareness of what it is to be a woman. When did that start to take hold? And when did you start to feel a sense of injustice about that? Very young also, because I was supposed to be raised as a girl. Very young also because I was supposed to be raised as a girl. So my brothers were climbing trees and playing Indians and cowboys. And I was supposedly learning to knit in the living room. I felt limited.

And then when I started menstruating, that was a blow. Because that was puberty. And for me, it came very young. And then I realized my body had betrayed me. I wasn't a tomboy anymore. I wouldn't say I was disgusted, but I was terrified of what lay ahead for me. My brothers had a destiny. They would become like my grandfather or my uncles. They would have a car, they would have money, they would have a salary, they would have independence. They would give the orders and do things without asking questions. I was not supposed to live like that. What were the options that were discussed for you then?

They were not discussed, they were implied. That I was going to be somebody's wife and somebody's mother. I was always an excellent student. No one ever talked about me going to college or getting a profession of any kind. When I left school at 16, I finished high school, I learned to type to become somebody's secretary until I could get married. And how was it then that you fell into journalism or that you started writing as a journalist? By a miracle. I was pregnant days before childbirth and a young woman came to my house. She introduced herself.

She had met my mother in Geneva. And my mother and I corresponded. We wrote to each other every day. And my mother had become friends with this young woman and had shown her some of my letters. And she was going to start a feminist magazine in Chile. And because of what she had read that I had written to my mother, she offered me a job. But I wasn't a journalist. And I had to learn to write.

Because I had spelling mistakes. I didn't know anything about grammar. I had no idea how to write an interview or a report of any kind. I learned it all in situ. And I think that what saved me was that I could write with a sense of humor. So I was the one that in the magazine did feminism with humor. And so it wasn't so hard, so harsh. Because we were changing the society, really. In the six years that the magazine existed,

because we were all, of course, fired when we had the military coup. But in the six years that the magazine existed because we were all of course fired when we had the military coup but in those six years we changed the narrative for women in Chile because we all knew that there was abortion and domestic violence and adultery and drugs and prostitution we all knew about it but we it was never, ever published anywhere. And we put it out there publicly. So it was a very harsh reality. But I could do it with humor. So I also had a TV program that treated male chauvinism with humor, making fun of men. And men took it very well, you know.

I had a lot of male fans. Took it very well, you know. I had a lot of male fans. On the other hand, many women felt threatened because they felt that the way they were living, what sustained them, the foundation of their lives, was being shaken. Yes, I suppose they maybe felt that, by implication, you were suggesting that they were settling for too little

and that there was some, I suppose you could feel that you were not brave or that you were cowardly by not changing your situation. So maybe some women felt like that. Yes. And I also think that many women, like the way I had been raised, thought that their place was in the family, that they were the pillars of the family, and whatever we were proposing was threatening the family and threatening their situation and their position in the society. Yeah. But not to mention the Catholic Church that was also involved in all this.

I should say at this point that my mother was Chilean. She was. Yeah, and she actually grew up in Viña, in Viña del Mar, which is where I believe your first cousin once removed, President Allende, grew up. Yes.

So there you go. We have that strange connection. Although my mother was, I imagine she would have been one of those people who felt threatened uh not to sell her out she was a wonderful woman in many ways and i loved her very much but she had more of a conservative outlook and um she would have felt that you know

when you were talking before about the way that people see how things should be done, you know, it's a shame that things are this way, but that's just the way the world is. She was certainly one of those people. And I suppose you could characterize that way of looking at the world as, broadly speaking, conservative. That's the difference. It's like, I suppose people on the right tend to be like that you know it's a shame but that's just what it's like there's nothing you can do about it so you may as well work within that imperfect structure whereas as a big generalization people on the left are looking for ways to improve it and trying to imagine a better world but when it comes to religion I don't know how important that

was to her how central it was to her life. Was it a very important part of Chilean society at the time, do you think? The Catholic Church in Chile was very powerful to the point that we were the last country in the world to have divorce. And we got divorced in 2004 because the Catholic Church opposed it. for because the Catholic Church opposed it. And the Catholic Church being so powerful, I would say that people have a sort of superstitious inclination toward religion. But then right now, the church has lost a lot of prestige in Chile because of the pedophile priests and corruption and all that. So people no longer trust in Chile any institution, and the church included.

But when I was growing up, as I said, the church was very, very powerful. But people called themselves Catholics. I don't think they really practiced as much. But still, it was very formative when I was growing up and very powerful. And there are some ultra-extreme Catholic groups in Chile, like the Opus Dei or Legionarios de Cristo, who are very elitist. They control or they are very influential in the financial world.

They target the rich. Right. I hope, well, maybe this is a spoiler. I was going to say that in Long Petal of the Sea, there is a moment in which a young woman's child is removed from her on the insistence of the church because... She could not have an abortion. Right, and it would just bring shame on the family for her to have had a child out of marriage. It wasn't done.

I mean, as I said before, in that social class, they would do anything to hide an illegitimate child. That was not the case in other social classes in Chile, where there are more children out of wedlock than within wedlock. That's the reality. And now, of course, nobody cares. You can have a child any way you want. But at the time, that was not possible when the character in the book lives in a time and in a place where she couldn't do that. So she's willing to have a child and fight for that child. And the child is taken away by the family because the family cannot go through that shame. That was done with the collusion, the complicity of the Catholic Church,

of a particular priest. I didn't make up that story. That story happened with a huge scandal in Chile because it was discovered, but it had been happening for years and years. And the priest belonged to my family. Oh, really? Yeah. And you found that out when the scandal broke or had you known before? Yes. No, no, I had not known before my mother I wasn't even living in Chile when the scandal broke and my mother told me and we went through all the details because it was more shameful now for the family that this priest was a relative than nothing else you know was he someone that you had been close to or that your family was close to no no no, no. I hardly knew him. Okay. We were talking about feminism, though, and talking about ways of reimagining the world in a more positive way. And I think sometimes, particularly in the last few years,

in the social media age, I've noticed that feminists sometimes get into quite bitter disagreements about the finer points of feminism or what they believe in, how they think things should go. And I suppose the most obvious example at the moment, certainly over here, I don't know what it's like in the States, is the conflict between some activists for trans rights and the disagreements with gender critical feminists and without getting into the specifics of that particular conversation do you think those kinds of rows are damaging to the cause of feminism or do you see them as just a kind of inevitable part of society going through important

changes? I wish they were not there because we need everybody. We should welcome every tendency, everybody, because the final goal of feminism is to defeat the patriarchy. And what is the patriarchy? A system of oppression that gives the male gender dominance over women, but also over other species, over nature, and over many, many, many men that should be part of the movement as well. Sorry, I have to turn off this thing. Sure, don't worry.

Yeah. So I wish we were all included, and instead of fighting for the details, we would all have the final goal in mind. But we also have to keep in mind that feminism is a revolution. All revolutions start with anger at something that is basically unfair and usually violent. And so a revolution starts with that sentiment of anger, but it doesn't have a roadmap. It doesn't have a manual. We improvise, we walk and we fight and we improvise and we make mistakes and we reach crossroads and dead ends and we have to go back and revise everything. and we have to go back and revise everything. So that's part of the journey.

And I don't think it's bad, because in each one of these arguments about details, we find a way. We build the road. Right. Have you ever been drawn into any of those kinds of conflicts yourself? No, no, no. I don't fall in that trap. To go back to Long Petal of the Sea, if you don't mind, from a practical point of view,

a writing point of view, I'm interested to know how you approach writing a book that has that kind of scope. It's a story that takes place over many decades. It involves many people, all these kind of seismic historical events. Are you aware of the need to stop it becoming a kind of broad strokes, Wikipedia entry, telling of a story? And how do you stop that happening? Well, I have written several historical novels, and this is one of them. And what you just mentioned is something that I have to be really aware of not to overdo the research I research research research to have all the knowledge I can about the event the time and the place but then I have to be very selective sometimes a sentence will give you enough so you don't need to go into the Wikipedia thing. But in the case of Long Petal of the Sea, it was easy because

it's a very recent, it's history, but it's very recent. It's a hundred and, I mean, it's the Winnipeg came to Chile 80 years ago. It's nothing. So some people who are either descendants of the passengers of the Winnipeg or themselves are still alive. And I have been able to talk to them. So that for me, the story was told by a man called Victor Pei, whom I met in exile in Venezuela when he was on his second exile after the military coup in Chile. And he told me the story. So for me, it was very easy to focus on his lifetime. Unfortunately, he died six days before I could send him the manuscript dedicated to him.

He was 103 years old. Wow. Totally lucid and working, still working, driving dangerously to his office every day. Really? Driving at 103? Yeah, and he died in his sleep. So he told me his life, and that is the book. So the scope is the life of that, the scope of that life.

So it was easy to contain it. Yes. And how did you decide how you were going to deal with those events in Chile that actually involved someone that you knew? I mean, what was your relationship with Salvador Allende? He was your dad's first cousin, but was he, is that your... Yeah, my actual father, my biological father. Right.

So when my father left, we lost touch with the Allende family completely, except for Salvador Allende, who at the time was a politician, but of course he wasn't even a candidate to the presidency. And he always remained close to my mother. And eventually, my mother married my stepfather, who was a good friend of Allende, to the point that when Allende became president, he appointed my stepfather ambassador to Argentina. So there was a close family relationship because of that as well. So what was the question? I'm sorry I interrupted. No, no, you were explaining what your relationship was to him,

and I was interested to know to what extent you knew him. Did you spend much time with him yourself, and did you get to know him? I knew him as a member of an extended family. Right. Of an older generation. So he was a friend of my parents, not mine. Yeah. And I would be present at family luncheons

where he was always the head of the table, or then when he became president and my stepfather would come to report to him every two months more or less from Buenos Aires there would always be some family reunion and I would see him then but I wasn't close to him so but did you talk about politics you and your mother for example well we did talk about politics, you and your mother, for example? Well, we did talk about politics when Allende was the candidate, when he became president, when the horror of the military coup and the years of the dictatorship. I lived in exile for many years and my mother as well.

So my mother and my stepfather lived in Venezuela in the same building that I lived in with my family for, I don't know, 10 years at least in their case. In my case, it was 13. And then I came to the United States. So the dictatorship lasted in Chile 17 years. Yeah. I know from speaking, like recently,

I've tried to track down relatives and get to know them a little better and find out a bit more about my parents and my mom. And I was talking to them about those years in the early 70s when Allende was president. It was a time that was very turbulent and food shortages, strikes, etc. It's true. All that is true. strikes etc it's true all that is true so from their point of view this was showing them everything that they feared would happen if a socialist got in and i suppose that's what was happening when the americans and the cia did nothing to stop slash encouraged the military coup because they

they supported it right they encouraged it they supported it and they financed it and there was sabotage organized sabotage against the government for three years and when the boycott of of essential things like gasoline or needles for hospitals or things like that happened of course people suffered of course there was shortage of course there was upheaval like gasoline or needles for hospitals or things like that happened, of course people suffered. Of course there was shortage. Of course there was upheaval. And still, when we had elections in March of 1973, the coalition of parties of the left,

which included the Socialist Party, won more seats in Congress. So in spite of everything, the people supported the government. So at that point, the CIA and the right in Chile decided that sabotage wasn't enough, that a military coup was needed. And that happened. Now, I'm not saying that the left was not to blame. Of course, there was also blame on both sides. Sure. From talking to a couple of my relatives recently,

I asked them a little bit about all that, and they said, oh, we never talk about it. Never. It's one of those things that you shouldn't really talk about. You don't talk about it if you are in the right because you don't want to be reminded that you supported that. But the country has dealt not with the full truth and reconciliation, no, but the truth is known in a way. When we had the 30th anniversary of the coup in Chile. There was an explosion of information everywhere.

Photography, films, exhibits, the press, books, you name it. So really, no one in Chile today can say they didn't know. Everybody knows. But a sector of the population decides not to talk about it. Well, I've dug us into a little bit of a depressing hole here. I apologize. So in order to cheer ourselves up, I wanted to ask you about infidelity. I'm interested to know, you've written before about the fact that you had an affair. Is it fair to call it an affair? Is that okay?

Yeah, of course. Of course. This was when you were with your first husband. Yeah. I was in my 30s. We had left Chile. I was living in exile in Venezuela. I must have been around 35.

Right. And your children were around 12 and 15. And you met someone when you were writing, you were working on a play. I met this Argentinian musician. We fell in love. I left my husband and my children, followed him to Madrid, and it was a disaster. I was back in a month or so, I was back in a month or so, and I've always regretted it. Not because of the infidelity, which I think shouldn't ruin a marriage, but because I did it in a very bad way. I left without telling anybody, I abandoned my children, and they never forgave me.

And so the suffering that I caused to my husband is part of the deal. We get married and things happen in a marriage. But the fact that I hurt my children, I have never forgiven myself for that. I could have done it differently. And when did you realize that you'd made a mistake? Very soon.

Three weeks into the relationship, four weeks into the relationship, I knew that he would not be a good stepfather for my children. That was a turning point, when I realized that I could not bring my children to be with him. I could stay with him, but not with my children. So I returned to Venezuela. I read a piece that you wrote about this, and you said, for years I carried the stigma

and deep, deep shame with me, the shame that would never burden a man. Men leave their families all the time. And I think that is probably, broadly speaking, true. But I wonder if it's, broadly speaking, true. But I wonder if it's, I mean, I think that men would feel shame in that situation too. Maybe not all of them, and I think as a generalization it holds true. But do you really think that men would be unaffected by it largely?

Less than women, for sure, because there is less stigma on men. For example, in Chile, when I said that many children are born out of wedlock, traditionally, men, especially in the lower social classes, the working class, men move a lot for work. And they establish families in different places. So, yeah, it is a generalization, but look at the world. Isn't it the way it is? Now, is there a sense of shame and regret in men?

Probably, but not enough for them to stay. Yeah, no, I do. There's no question that infidelity means something different when a man does it than when a woman does it. How about this as a generalization? Most women

would advise their female friends not to take a man back if he had been unfaithful to them. Yeah. So why should it be different if it's the other way around?

Or isn't it... Why is it a good idea to take someone back after they've been up here? I think it depends on the case. I know very, very, very, very close two couples that have gone through the same situation. And in both cases, it was the man who had affairs, several in one case, and one very long, stable affair in another case. And, of course, everybody advised the women to leave them. Why would they take them back? But they stayed, and years went by, and they are very good couples now. They went through hell,

and then they came out of it somehow. Other couples don't survive that. There is a woman that you might have heard of called Esther Perel. She has TED Talks, and she's a sexologist. And she talks about how monogamy can be hurtful for a couple, can be a prison for a couple. You know, fidelity made sense when we lived to be 50, and we were with a partner for 20 years, but now we are 70 years with the same person.

Do you expect that in 70 years you will never look at another person or love another person or want to go to bed with another person. It's hard. Hard to think that way. So I am at a stage in my life in which I totally promote fidelity because it's more comfortable for me, but not for everybody.

And I was faithful to Willie for 28 years. And I was much, much younger. And I had many opportunities because I was alone most of the time and I traveled a lot. But it never crossed my mind. While it did before, because I was so unhappy. Right. I want to ask you, you write in both The Long Petal of the Sea and Soul of a Woman, you write very well about the process of growing older. I like the thing that your mother said that

if we aspire to wisdom, we have to start training at a young age. I aspire to wisdom. I feel as if I am a silly man and unwise in many ways, but I would like... Well, that's the beginning of wisdom, Adam. Okay, good. To be aware of it. All right. You already are on the road. I would like to... Not only would I like to be alive at 78,

as you are, I would like to look half as good as you do and have achieved a tiny fraction of the things that you have. But I'm interested to know whether you feel wiser and maybe what you wish you had known when you were younger about what it is to be the age you are now you know one thing that i have now that i never had before i'm comfortable in my body i don't want to the the i don't want the wrong legs. I am okay. And now that I look

worse than ever before, I feel better about myself. I have to object. I think that's, you look great. And that just isn't true. That's Zoom that has very good lighting. You got the soft filter on. No, but I have a light in front. Anyway. So I feel comfortable in my body. I'm healthy. I have resources that I did not have before. First, economic resources that finally my work has given me and I didn't have for a very long time. And I have love, which is an extraordinary thing to get so late in life,

a new love. I suppose that it's wonderful to have a companion that you have had all your life. But when you get a new companion very late in life it's like a new start and it has some brilliancy in it and some spark that is extraordinary but what I have when you say am I wiser I am wiser in certain things but all my the person I am I'm more of the person I always was. I don't acquire anything new because I'm older. Things just get more visible. Maybe because you lose inhibitions. But I've always been outspoken. I've always been detached, passionate, impulsive, and I'm more of all that. The thing that I'm wiser is that I don't

expect anything from anybody or from life. I'm content with what there is. I want the world to change, and I'm doing my best to change it, but I'm not going to see it in my lifetime, and it doesn't matter. My grandchildren might, and that's my job. I am just one part of this chain toward evolution. So let me do my part, and that is good enough for me now. I don't get so extremely anxious at what I have not achieved. And it's usually something that is way beyond my capacity. I can achieve to finish a book, for example.

I can achieve to cook, but I cannot achieve to end fascism. So instead of being absolutely upset for that, I let it go. And I say, OK, I'm doing my best at this point to stop it for as long as I can. And that's all I can do. So be it. Relax. Wait, this is an advert for Squarespace.

Wait, this is an advert for Squarespace. Every time I visit your website, I see success. Yes, success. The way that you look at the world makes the world want to say yes. It looks very professional. I love browsing your videos and pics and I don't want to stop. And I'd like to access your members area and spend in your shop. These are the kinds of comments people will say about your website if you build it with Squarespace.

Just visit squarespace.com slash Buxton for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, because you will want to launch, use the offer code Buxton to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. So put the smile of success on your face with Squarespace. Yes. Continue. Okay. Hey, welcome back, podcats. Isabel Allende there talking to me, and I'm very grateful indeed to her

for giving up her time to waffle down the line. Good to meet her and talk to her. She was very sparkly and friendly. She got a Presidential Medal of Freedom from Barack Obama in 2014. I mean, you know, I try not to worry too much about awards and get too in awe of someone just because they got awards. You know, because they're not the only indication of someone's worth, are they? No, of course not, Buckles. But anyway, it's good to talk to her it was quite odd sometimes the cadences of her speech and her voice really reminded me of my mum who was in many ways

quite a different character to someone like isabel but um i'm thinking about my mum a lot because i'm trying to write about her a bit at the moment. I mean, obviously I've been thinking about her a lot. Anyway, she died just over a year ago. I've been surprised by how hard it's been, I suppose because once both your parents have gone, it's a different kind of sadness that kicks in and there's lots of other things attached to it thoughts about mortality and all that stuff you know trying to set some of those thoughts down i'm trying to make it really dreary and self-indulgent so far it's going very well. I got a few messages from people

after last week's podcast saying, uh, hope you're doing okay. Hope the COVID's not too bad. Thanks very much for those. Very kind. I mean, I'm definitely not suffering badly. And as I said in the introduction, I think I'm improving a little bit. But, you know, there's always just that impatience to get back to where you were before. Which I suppose you could say about the whole COVID situation in general. And it's very frustrating and kind of depressing that the process of moving on and resetting is taking so long. One of the people I got a message from last week was Michael McLennan. He's the founder and chief executive of COVID Aid, the UK's new national charity dedicated to supporting all those significantly affected by COVID-19. I thought I'd give the charity a

mention here in case it's useful to some of you. Michael says the charity is designed to build a community and provide a voice for those experiencing issues, including long COVID, grief and bereavement, or other kinds of struggles associated with COVID. You can find information and support at covidcharity.org. I've put a link in the description of this podcast. There's also a link to Fifth Sense, a UK-based organization that provides advice and support for people affected by smell and taste disorders. I think on the senses chart, maybe smell and taste place fairly low. Like if you had to lose one of your senses, maybe smell and taste might be one of those that people feel they could live without. But actually when they're gone, boy, you really miss them. And it can be maddening.

miss them and it can be maddening mine does seem to be improving a little bit but i can't tell some days it's better than others i'm doing the saline nasal douche if you had a saline nasal douche today it's pretty fun you get a squirty can shove it up your nose spritz and it you get like seawater pouring out of your nose it's supposed to moisturize things up there and clean out any gunk not sure if it's improved my sense of smell or taste but it's great fun anyway in case it provides any useful information for those of you dealing with losing your taste or smell, check out Fifth Sense. Link in the description. I think that's it for this week. Thank you very much indeed to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his production support on this episode. Cheers, Seamus.

I edited the conversation on my own this week although well it's kind of a collaboration because we're using this software called Descript. D-E-S-C-R-I-P-T. I'll put a link in the description. It's quite good. You can upload audio files can upload audio files of conversations, that is, and it very quickly transcribes them, and then you can go into the transcript and make edits to the text that are reflected in the actual audio timeline beneath, and then you can export that timeline once you've edited it to an audio

editing program like Logic which I use and then you can finesse the edit there but it keeps the audio files intact so it shows you the edits you've made to the text in Descript. But if you want to go back and stretch out original bits of audio from the original recordings, you can, if that makes sense. Anyway, tech recommendation for you there, in case it's useful, in case you are a podcaster

or someone who does a lot of conversation editing. Give Descript a try. I'm not sponsored by them, haven't been in touch with them, other than to get a few tips from their help center, which have been good and prompt and helpful. All right.

Thanks as well to everyone at ACAST for all their ongoing support of this podcast. And thanks most of all, to you. You are the hardcore who have listened right to the end of this episode. You even listened to the stuff about Descript. Wow. I don't think you get enough credit. And if I wasn't worried that it might be disrespectful to the NHS,

I would insist that everyone stood out in the street and rattled pots and pans for you. Why are we rattling pots and pans? Well, it's for the people that listen right to the end of the Adam Buxton podcast. Oh, yes. What would we do without them? What indeed? Would you like a rainy hug? Actually, it's stopped raining right now.

But I'm a little bit damp some would say wet come on yeah upwards, onwards till next time take care, I love you BYE Until next time, take care. I love you. Bye! Bye. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe.

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