THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.21 - MARC RILEY

Episode Date: June 3, 2016

Adam talks to British broadcaster and BBC6 Music presenter Marc Riley about radio, music and life as a member of legendary indie band: The Fall. Thanks to Seamus Murphy-Mitchel for production support and Matt Lamont for additional editing. Music and jingles by Adam Buxton, except for a clip of 'Jumper Clown' by Marc Riley & The Creepers (In-Tape Records, 1983) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This podcast contains bad language, jingles, men, references to music, and a lady dog. You've been warned. I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin. Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening. I took my microphone and found some human folk. Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke. My name is Adam Buxton. I'm a man.

And I want you to enjoy this. That's the plan. How are you doing, listeners? Thank you very much indeed for downloading podcast number 21. I'm back in Norfolk, and it's been a busy week. I was doing some shows, doing some podcasting, some fun ramble chats coming your way in the next few weeks, I hope. But it's very nice to be back home, even though, as I walk with Rosie this Friday early evening, it is freezing. I'm wearing gloves. I'm wearing a big coat, a scarf, a

head hat, and I'm still quite cold. What the hell's that? It's probably our fault somehow, isn't it? But still, it's no good. I mean, I think it's a combination of our fault and the UK. God forbid there should be a sustained period of actual warmth during the summer months, then it would just be like Los Angeles and everyone would get all laid back and mellow. Nothing would get done. Because Britain runs on frustration, rage and disappointment.

And it's mainly the fault of the weather. None of that's true, of course. I was just being glib. That's my MO. So listen, this week on the podcast, we have for you Mark Reilly. Yay! Mark Reilly, for those of you not familiar, is currently a presenter on BBC Six Music in the UK on the radio.

He presents the early evening show during the week. And if you're not already one of his loyal listeners and you decide to tune in, you may well find Mark playing a selection of records by artists like Ezra Furman, the Fiery Furnaces, the OCs, he loves the OCs, Kate Le Bon, that kind of thing, you know. Alongside older tracks by Captain Beefheart and a bit of Bowie, some Genesis. Or, as he mentions in our conversation, the occasional classic from someone like Britney Spears. He's eclectic. He also features specially recorded sessions from a wildly diverse selection of up-and-coming artists. all adds to a sense that Mark is very much a broadcaster in the John Peel tradition of, I suppose, laid back, but passionately enthusiastic, open-mindedness when it comes to music.

And of course, the other connection with John Peel that springs to mind as far as Mark Riley goes, that springs to mind as far as Mark Riley goes is that he was, between 1978 and early 1983, a member of Peel's favourite band, or at least one of his favourite bands, The Fall, fronted by the brilliant, weird, hilarious and unpredictable Mark E. Smith. Mark Riley played bass and guitar and keyboards for the band at various points, as well as being one of the writers on a number of early fall songs,

until, like many a fall member before and after him, he parted ways with the band in not entirely amicable circumstances, which he talks about in this conversation. And as well as other things, we also have a brief Bowie chat, as we both, of course, loved and still love Xavier. But we began by talking about radio and sharing some stories about our humble beginnings therein. So what do you think, Rosie? I'm going to go and jump in the grass. All right, you do that. And I'm going to say, here we go. We'll focus first on this, then concentrate on that. Come on, let's chew the fat and have a ramble chat. Put on your conversation coat and find your talking hat. Did all the business of being like a radio DJ come naturally to you?

When did you start being a radio DJ? The first thing I ever did was just by default, and that was because I had a mate who was a DJ on Piccadilly Radio, and Iggy Pop was coming to town, playing the Apollo, and he couldn't go, he couldn't interview Iggy, so I went to the Holiday Inn to interview Iggy Pop. I'd been on the tail end of it, obviously being in the Fallen Creepers, people had interviewed me, but I'd never interviewed anybody myself.

And I was nervous, really nervous about meeting Iggy Pop. And I do remember I knocked on the door, and the door opened. And I was looking around for a couple of seconds, and then... He's tiny. Have you ever met Iggy? No. He's tiny. I was looking over his head. He was almost like, is your dad in? You know, he was really...

Because you look at these people, the same as Bowie. I'm sure we'll talk more about Bowie. But, you know, I don't know if you had a thing about his height or not. But I think he used to put five foot seven and a half or something like that. Half is very important. And when you've got this built-up kind of icon in your mind, you think you're going to meet Davey Bowie

and you think he's going to be seven feet tall, don't you? Yeah. You meety Bowie and you think he's going to be seven feet tall, don't you? Yeah. You meet Iggy Pop, you think he's going to be seven foot tall. But I'm six foot one, probably shrinking a bit now because I'm getting older. But I was, yeah, head and shoulders above both of them. Physically only, obviously. Yeah.

Mentally or anything. And how was Iggy? Really sweet and really, really super intelligent. I mean, that's the thing about Iggy. I don't know how much you know about his kind of personality or whatever, but it is a Jekyll and Hyde. So he is Iggy when he's on stage, and he's James, Jim Osterberg when he's not.

So when does he find time to wrestle with his demons? Like, when do the demons get control of Iggy? Well, do you know, I mean, that's well documented, isn't it? Because Bowie almost got him sectioned, I think. And Bowie was the only person who would go and visit him. I think he might have been in California, but he was in a sanatorium, and Bowie would visit him every day.

And then when he came out of it, about 1974, maybe, and then it was coming out of that, Bowie just, yeah, just took hold of him, and that's when they did The Idiot and Lust for Life, you know, and travelled, they famously travelled around on the Trans-Europe Express, didn't they? And they lived together in Germany. So I don't think he's really had that many demons

since Bowie sorted him out. Yeah, because everyone I know that's met him just says how charming he is. Yeah, he is. He's all art. He's a proper gent. And so interviewing him, did you think, oh, I can do this? Yeah, I didn't think I could do it, no. I mean, I've not heard it back.

I saw the cassette in the cellar about five years ago and I've not seen it since, you know, so it might still be down there somewhere. And was the person that sent you, were they happy with the results? Yeah, he got put out. It was Iggy Pop. I mean, you know, it's Iggy Pop on a local radio station, specialist show, so he's a big star, you know. Yeah, no, he was all right,

but I never had any idea at all about working in radio. And in fact, yeah, the first time i got offered to do a pilot was for radio 5 as was when it opened i said well no i've never done a radio program in my life and i've never even thought of it and i said to him you need to try um a guy called mark radcliffe who was working in the building at that point in time and i used to plug mark as well i'd met him previously with frank sidebottom and also he'd produced a couple of Creepers sessions for Peel. Right. But I also know

it's all very convoluted but he used to have the show on Piccadilly that he left to work for Radio 1 and that's when Tony Michaelides took over who was the guy that I did the interview for Iggy for. Right. And so I said to Quentin you should try Mark Radcliffe because he's a presenter and he's in the building

and he's not presenting, you know. And so they did and it worked. And then Quentin came back to me and said, I know you didn't want to present, but do you want to do something every other week, just a ten-minute spot? So I was like, yeah, all right then. But I was terrified, absolutely terrified.

But we did it. But every now and then there was no news. There was nothing happening. And so I worked it with Mark, whereby I'd go in and say, well, I saw Dermo on the bus the other day, Dermo from Northside. And he'd go, right, OK, what did he do? Well, he got off at Oldham Market. Right, okay, yeah.

What else? Well, not a lot, really. So that kind of slightly comedic relationship built up out of that. The fact that every now and then there was just nothing to say. And rather than just not go in, I just went in and just dicked about. That's the way a lot of good stuff happens, isn't it? Or at least good stuff begins. Yeah.

It might not be good instantly, but I used to be on local radio in Cheltenham when I was studying sculpture at art school. Right. This new radio station, CD 603, it was called, opened up there. And I got a foot in the door, you know, to cover the graveyard slots every now and again.

And also to be a travel reporter on The Breakfast Show. And they had this guy called Glyn. I can't remember Glyn's surname but he literally had a voice like that. It was kind of like every single DJ type voice

rolled into one guy. He was a really nice guy. We used to chat about that. He's a really nice guy. Hi, Flynn. And he'd say, right, we're going to go over to Adam now. And the gimmick they had was they used to put me out and about on a Sinclair Zike, which was like a battery powered bike. Right. And I would dress up as a cowboy.

Don't ask me why. But then it dawned on me, what am I going to say? What's actually going to be in the travel reports? I don't know what's going on on the roads. And they didn't have a computer or anything. I don't know how real travel reports work on the radio. They're linked up to a central information hub.

I would imagine so. I mean, it's a bit like the old joke, isn't it? It'd be like being the weatherman and just sticking your head out the window and saying, yeah, it's raining. So you would just tell everybody what was happening on that particular road. Exactly, yeah. I was like, come on the London Road. And there's a red car. And there's two black ones. it's all it's looking pretty good so I'll check in with you later Glyn and so it was like that for a while and then

after a while we were told that that was too silly and that they're actually serious business yeah serious business being on the on the breakfast. And also I think people genuinely want to know what the travel situation is. Probably is a bit frustrating. Yeah. Going over now to Adam for the, yeah, here we go. It's another joke.

It's like, okay, here's a good opportunity to switch over and never listen to CD 603 again. So they thought, okay, maybe you should do some proper travel. So at that point, but they weren't saying we're going to get a computer in to give you some stuff to read out or anything like that.

I was still out there on the bike. So I just used to listen to, I remember Danny Baker was on the radio at that point. I used to listen to Danny Baker, copy down the details of his travel reports and then do ours like five minutes later and just read those out. Clever. And so I did that for a while. Who needs an infrastructure? Yeah. There's already, you know, I'm a big believer in recycling.

Why create more travel information when there's already so much out there? It's all the same, isn't it? Yeah. But out of those kind of moments of necessity, you start building stupid little bits and pieces that you think, oh, that was funny in that moment. Yeah, is it just a position whereby there's nothing to lose, really? I mean, that was it with Mark. It was just a ten-minute slot every other week.

And then they asked me to do it every week. And that's obviously got a bit more momentum. And then they asked me to be the researcher. And then the whole kit and caboodle went independent. And Radcliffe and I formed a company and got the programme. So I became the producer and the co-presenter. So it was all, you know, I never had any designs on joining the fall. The only reason I got asked to join the fall

was because I'd made the first fall T-shirt. So just loads of lucky right place right time scenarios for me you know yeah never engineered anything that's happening everything just kind of fallen for me it's just ridiculous part of the problem well that's the best way to do things though isn't it i think don't you reckon like it's it's just that's how life should be in a way isn't it well i never i never was in a situation where I had to try too hard because I never knew what I wanted. Do you know what I mean?

So I didn't have a chance to blow it, getting nervous about it, because I never went for it. I just got offered things, you know. Yeah, I would rather be like that than be tortured by ambitions that remain unfulfilled. You know, I've had a few moments in my life where opportunities have arisen and i thought oh that would be great but and and it hasn't worked out and then that's really you're

really gutted but it's almost worse when outside opportunities are dangled in front of your face you know you're doing your own thing yeah and then someone likes it and says hey look here's a chance to take it to the next level but it breaks you out of the groove of what you've been doing quite well. And then you try and do something different and it doesn't really work out. And then you just end up thinking, oh, I wish I'd just carried on doing my own thing. Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, that happened,

exactly that happened with Radcliffe and I with The Breakfast Show. Right, because you ended up becoming sort of like big radio stars. You're too modest to... I don't know if I've gone that far, but we were on the front cover of the tabloids. Yeah.

It was ridiculous. You were tabloid guys. Tabloid, you had household names at the very least. Yeah, two enough. And you were on big posters, you know, big billboards. Yeah, but we really didn't want to do it. And why didn't you want to do it? What were the main things that were off-putting? The whole thing was

that the graveyard shift had become really kind of culturally quite important and we were having live bands in I mean it was like a sick music show really, you know, if you think about it we used to play lots of great old records we'd play B-Far and all that kind of stuff and all the new bands coming through and fine new bands.

I mean, going from the blank canvas and it going well to this really... We knew we were going to be scrutinised, like, you know, the Goldfish Bowl and the madness of The Breakfast Show, the biggest or second biggest show on the network, and the kind of circus, the PR circus and everything. It just wasn't us, you know, and not to mention the fact that you have to get up at 4 o'clock in the morning. And, yeah, we were getting into work in a foul mood,

not having been out the night before or been out and watched TV past 9 o'clock because you're getting up at 3 o'clock, and it's just no life. And, I mean, you know, you look at people like Wogan and you look at somebody like Chris Moyles, who, you know, what you're talking about growing up and wanting to be a DJ. Chris Moyles was the archetypal sat in front of a mirror

with a hairbrush doing links, I believe. I don't know, Chris, but that's what I've read. And that's... He's driven. That was it. For him, his ambition would be to get the Radio 1 Breakfast show. But for Radcliffe and I, it was just a real... It was a poison chalice in many ways because Chris Evans was so popular and we didn't want to do it.

So how many reasons do you need not to do it? Yeah. It was all there, but... And were there not periods where you thought, oh, this might be OK, you know, it'll take a bit of adjusting to, but we'll get into it. No. No, it was hell. It really was awful. And they came up with the brilliant conclusion

that people didn't want to get out of bed and listen to two cantankerous northern men. Northern. That was a particular kind of gnarly issue, I think. And it even got to the point where they said, you need to speak, you need to do less in that half hour. And so we engineered this mechanic whereby I was only allowed six words in the first half hour. So we'd start and say, you know, like,

OK, lad, now you do realise you're only allowed to say six words in this half hour? Yes. It's five now. OK. Is that two or one there one you've got four left uh would you make me a cup of tea yeah do you want sugar oh and that was it i wouldn't speak then for the rest of the half hour mark i'd segue do a couple of very dry links or whatever and then at seven o'clock we were allowed to speak again you know yeah and then fortunately because it was nicky campbell who'd vacated the graveyard shift and we got it. And then he vacated the afternoon show.

So we got that as well. So we were just following Nicky Campbell around the schedule really, not with the breakfast show. And how did that feel though? Were you relieved or did you feel like you'd failed? It was a weird time because I think that because of the nightmare we'd been through, I think we were nervous about it. You know, I think we were really, because we had failed, and we thought, right, what if the graveyard shift was a one-off?

What if that was just like, right place again, right time, everything fell into place, people liked us, now people don't like us anymore, understandably might not give us a second chance in the afternoon, but, you know, within six months I think maybe less

we felt very comfortable with it, very confident it was going really well, it got loads of listeners, we got like 8 million listeners which is quite ridiculous for that time of day and that's when we started mixing it up again and bringing the mischief in we got Kylie Minogue to do jingles

for us and Radio 1 wouldn't touch kylie minogue at that point in time and we got to do things like mark and lard at least four good records in every program because rackliff chose four records there were four free choices the rest was playlist and do you think back to those days and miss the atmosphere that they used to be in the big british castle then um it's just completely different i always say the difference between the job I've got now and the job I had then is like the difference between being a welder and a ballet dancer.

I'm not saying one's better than the other, though actually this is the best job I've ever had, for me personally, because, yeah, I don't play the playlists, I pick all the music, I pick the bands. And it is a matter of trust, you know, because, I mean, I always say, you know, every now and then I will play Toxic by Britney Spears,

not out of any perversity. I just think it's a great record. Sure. You know, I maintain that if Diana Ross had made that record or the Shangri-Las in 1966, people would go, what a great pop record. Plus, that's the great thing about music and the great thing about the art of the DJ,

if I can refer to it that way is that when you play a piece of music it changes according to what's around it the record you played before and the record you play afterwards you know yeah and uh it's totally different if you hear um wichita lineman in a whole series of you know on a on a mainstream radio show that only plays kind of accessible country-sounding songs. It sounds very different to Wichita Lineman sandwiched in between a Pixies record and, you know, something Polly Harvey or whatever. Is that true? Yeah, that is it.

You know, and, yeah, I put something on, I put, you know, every now and then I do stick my neck out. But, like, I put, I feel for you Chaka Khan. I played that a couple of weeks ago. The only violence I got was from a mate who sent me a text with a fist on the text. But people are probably just thinking, oh, I know what he's doing.

All right, well, I'll go and make a brew and I'll be back in a minute. That's a stone-cold classic. Come on. Yeah. For me, it is. There's no perversity at all. Like there's no perversity in me playing You Do Right by Cannes,

which lasts 20 minutes long, or Supper's Ready, which is 23 minutes long by Genesis. I think the nice thing about Six Music is that it's got people used to the idea that you can hear all sorts of different music, and there isn't that sort of silly snobbery anymore. You know, I mean, there was Sean Rowley who used to do All Back to Mine and do the Guilty Pleasures thing. But that whole notion, I mean, I really like Sean

and what he was doing, but I didn't like that notion of guilty pleasures. There's no such thing as a guilty pleasure. There's a song that you like. Yeah, you like it or you don't like it. You're not wandering around going, oh, I shouldn't like this. Yeah, and you know know it's just basically

all born out of the fact that some people want to just seem to be cool you know and not admit to liking something that isn't in inverted commas

cool it's just rubbish it's not a guilty pleasure you know if you like Waterloo by Abbey you like it because it's a great pop record

nothing shameful in that no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no, no, no, no! No! No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! I always say the second best thing that ever happened to me professionally was getting asked to join The Fall.

And the best thing that ever happened to me was getting kicked out of it. So how old were you when you joined The Fall then? I was 16. 16, and were you roadieing for them or something? Yeah, and I'd gone back to St Greg's to do, reset some O-levels and do some A-levels. You were pals with a couple of members of The Fall though, right? I mean, you'd been at school with...

No, but they weren't in the band until after me. Oh, I see. So we were in a band, actually. Me, Craig Scanlon and Steve Hanley were in a band called The Sirens, which were more like bus cocks, really, but they weren't in the band until after me. Oh, I see. So we were in a band, actually. Me, Craig Scanlon and Steve Hanley were in a band called The Sirens, which were more like bus cocks, really, but terrible. No, what it was, I made a fall T-shirt. I remember cutting the stencil. I mean, that's a fateful moment,

because everything got triggered by that one moment. If you could look at one moment in my life where everything changed, it was me in the garden on a sunny day with a piece of cardboard and a scalpel or a razor blade cutting out a false stencil. Because you loved them? Yeah. I mean, they were still just supporting people at rafters.

They were supporting Penetration and Wayne County and the Electric Chairs. They weren't a big band. And Smithy just saw me one night in the loos at rafters. I was on my way out and he was on the way and he saw the T-shirt and he said, do you want to be a roadie? And so I ended up lugging the gear around for the fall for maybe,

I don't know, maybe about five months or something. But the bass player that they had at the time was, he was older, the guy. He used to work with John Cooper Clarke and stuff. And he just, he wasn't impressed by any of it. And I remember we were going to do the first Peel session and I was still a roadie and we pulled up at his house and I'm still not sure of why, but we had a conga player called Steve Davis

and he wasn't in the band, but he came along for that session. I think it might have been because the more people that went, the more money you got. You got an extra MU fee. So, but he just opened up the door and he went,

I'm not getting in any effing van that's got congas in it and slammed the door shut, went back in. What's his problem with congas? Well, he wasn't having it. I think maybe it masked some other kind of problems he was having. I don't know, but that's what he said anyway. I mean, it was a very kind of a great flouncing gesture and a very quotable kind of scenario. I'm not getting in any van with effing congas. Bang.

Yeah. So we went down to Maida Vale and Martin Brahma played bass and guitar. He just did overdubs. And then, yeah, about three or four days later, Mark rung me up and said, do you want to join? Why did he know that you played bass? Yeah, yeah, he knew I was in a band with Craig and Steve, and we used to go and see The Fall all the time.

So he knew me well enough, you know. Okay. But that was a kind of genesis of Mark wanting to have the power base of the bands and he always has really he's always had somebody else alongside him who would be his backup and when i got asked to join i think they were probably not that happy about that either because they wanted their mate paddy garvey steve garvey to join because he was a really great bass player but mark wanted me in again thinking perhaps i've got him in he'll be

on my side and the power balance and all that steve garvey went on to join buzzcocks he was in the classic buzzcocks lineup so he he got out of jail yeah um but uh so the disquiet in the fall was growing and growing and when we're recording live at the witch trials remember we had no money so it was already bubbling and not long after martin left and formed the blue orchids with una who'd already left the fall before i joined so yeah that was that was the start of it all and that's how that's how the whole fall ethos and and the legend of 60 odd members kind of that's where it all kind of. Right, so it was becoming less a band and more Mark's project. Yeah, I think it's true to say that Mark saw it as an opportunity to not only control it artistically,

but also be in control of the money. I ain't complaining, but I was getting £1 less in the fall than I was on the dole. Like I say, really not complaining, but it just shows you it wasn't really a living wage. I spent most of it going and buying a couple of rounds in Presswich and Busfair. Were you then sort of resistant to some of the musical ideas

that Mark had? I mean, how did it work? I've always been curious about how involved is he in actually doing the songs? He doesn't sit there with a guitar and say, hey, I thought of a lovely melody today. No. I mean, every now and then he might say he might say uh very seldom really he'd say like maybe i wonder if i go you know from my point of view it was it really was uh me and craig were just writing all the music and what sort sort of... I remember you talking about Nervous Norvus. Transfusion, transfusion.

Yeah, never, never, never gonna speed again or I'll stumble. Yeah, and you hear... Yeah, you'd hear lots of stuff coming through that Mark had picked up that was quite obscure. And so whereas other people would be ripping off the Stooges or the Velvets, he'd be taking Nervous Norvus or maybe you know

you'd have to be weird to be wired you'd have to be weird to be weird, he's Captain Beefheart so he was taking stuff, all referencing stuff if you like and was he playing you those records and? Yeah, he was great education he played me Beefheart, I didn't know Beefheart. He played me The Seeds.

Didn't know them. Played me We're Only In It For The Money by Zappa, which I love. Don't like most things, but I love that. I thought The Wildermarker really did, you know, but he just, he treated us pretty badly. You know, he's spending more on fags a week than we were getting paid.

But was it fun, though, when you got on stage? Did you stop thinking about all that kind of stuff? Or were you so frustrated by the whole lifestyle that it ruined the fun of playing together? No, oh, no, it never ruined it. But, I mean, he was... You've got to understand that Mark was probably, when I joined the band, Mark about four years older than me.

He was probably 20, I think. But he already had a lot of kind of mannerisms of a much, much older person, you know, and an older person's mind. I mean, he said to me once, I remember, he said, oh, you know, people bathe too much these days. They don't have their own smell anymore. You know, and things like that, which, you know,

if somebody was to say that they were 50 years old when you're 16, you'd go, well, that's kind of... But Mark said that. He's got a really, really strange way of looking at the world and scenarios and that's what makes what he does pretty special, I think. You know, it's like Beefheart viewed things in a different way. And it's not a contrived thing. I think, you know, I don't know what people would say

about Mark's personality or whatever, but he's definitely a bit different to most people. You know? Yeah, exactly. As you say, that's what people buy into. Yeah. They like the totally unpredictable perspective that he has on things. And ironically,

you don't have to be weird to be weird sums it up because, you know, it's like I'm mad me as we know anybody who says they're mad isn't mad. Yeah so you were there you were in the fall from around 79 to about 83? The beginning of 83 yeah just under 5 years and I

unwittingly tweeted a clip of you guys on Australian TV not realising that that was kind of pinpointing almost the exact moment that you decided that you had to leave well i didn't leave i was kicked out i'll make that very clear but um again what i say about that is i was i was pushed but i had my parachute ready because it was it just wasn't good you know that was a morning after um the first night in australia and so we'd gotten there the day before obviously jet lagged completely out

of sync with the day and night you both look totally dazed on this interview yeah mark looks as if he looks like a kind of mutant gargoyle and every now and again the camera cuts to you and you're you're looking sort of shifty and furtive. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of documented now, but we did a gig, it was all right, we were all jet-lagged and then we went to, and we obviously then got pretty drunk. It doesn't take much when you're jet-lagged. Yeah, exactly.

We went to a nightclub and we never really danced, but we were kind of like delirious I think really but it was me, Craig, Steve and Paul on the dance floor and I saw Smith come over and slap one, slap two slap three so being a bright kind of character I realised

I was number four and so before he got a chance I grabbed his arm and pushed him against the wall and I honestly remember he looked at me like he'd just seen the devil. He's like, how dare you, you know? And then he stormed off. Why was he slapping the others? For dancing. We were dancing to Rock the Casbah

and he didn't think that the four should be seen to be dancing. And that is, you know, in one way you could say, yeah, it's not very cool. But on the other hand, it's like, you know, it is a contrived kind of embarrassment about you know people just doing what they want to do it's not as though we were how crazy do you have to be to translate that uh embarrassment into deciding to go and publicly slap someone on a dance floor because that's mark's kind of that was it i mean i'm curious to know that if he was like do you think there was a part of him that thought it was funny? No.

He was genuinely... He was showing everybody in the club that he's a boss and he wouldn't put up with that kind of thing. I'm not going to put up with people dancing to Rock the Casbah. Yeah. It's not on. And so we walked over and I was at the front and he was stood behind his table with Kay, but it was like a comedy film because he was rolling his sleeve up

as I walked towards him. Right. Rolled his sleeve up over his elbow. I got towards him and I said, what the fuck was that all about? And he hit me in the face. And so I hit him back. And, you know, I mean, I'm not a fighter. I'm, you know, get that clear now.

But, yeah, I hit him a lot harder than he hit me. And he went down and he came up covered in blood. It's documented in steve's book actually was saying get the police i'm being assaulted and then the bouncer came over and grabbed me around the neck grabbed mark around the neck threw us both out so that was it then i thought well that's i'll be going home in the morning and yeah there was a knock on the door first thing and it was kay she said you out of bed so i said all right I'm going home Emma she went no no you're doing a TV interview with Mark I'm like what

and she went yeah come on we've got to go the cab's outside waiting for us really she went yeah he's been asking for that for years anyway that's what she said and we got on it was very frosty with Mark and I as you can imagine he had a black eye

and so we went into makeup and he covered the black eye up. And we did the interview on Kids TV like a kind of Tiswas kind of programme with this Donny. Donny, he's nice. I like Donny. Yeah, lovely guy.

And he winds up this very awkward interview by sort of chuckling away and going, The Four, what a couple of lovely guys. Yeah, yeah. You know, like, he makes some barbed comments along the way, but why wouldn't he, you know, I mean.

He seems to genuinely like you. I mean, he's kind of chuckling away. And, yeah, there's this kind of light jazz bubbling away underneath the whole interview, you know, just to keep it all light. Yeah, yeah. It's great. So, and that was it. And so we did another four or five weeks

in Australia and they were good I mean there's that Fall In A Hole album from New Zealand which was a next step the next stage of that tour we had a week in New Zealand

at which point you know the thought of going to New Zealand great but we didn't want to we were all knackered and we were jaded with each other at that point in time

see the thing is with Mark is that he's hit people previously, but people don't hit him back. That's what he expects. He expects to be able to hit people. In the old days, I'm not saying it's the same now, but he used to just think he could hit people

because he was paying their wages and he wouldn't hit them back. So when we got... This didn't help. When we got to New Zealand, the live dream of a casino sale was in the top 20. It seemed really bizarre, but it was. So when we got to the airport, wear Dream of a Casino Soul was in the top 20. It seemed really bizarre, but it was. So when we got to the airport, we were all really jaded and fed up. And there was paparazzi there, because this top 20 band are coming to New Zealand,

so not many bands went anyway, and we were in the top 20. And so we got out there, and somebody went, there's loads of photographers here to take photographs. And we're like, what? We got out, and they were there. And so I just I did this, I stuck my boot out, I've got these really tight jeans on with big

boots on and a leather jacket and I've got this carrier bag in this hand and my guitar in that and I've got my leg kicking up. Well the next morning I was asleep and I could hear the cleaner coming to the chalet that we were staying in. He was going oh where is he then? Where's this guy, where is he, and they're going

what do you mean, going this guy here on the front of the paper and so it was the biggest newspaper in broadsheet in New Zealand and it had happy four guitarist but I really really hacked Smith off that I not only, again a bit like the Rock the Casbah thing he's a happy four guitarist

industrial northern you know, doom merchant or whatever. So that didn't go down so well. And then when we got back, we did a couple more gigs, and yeah, Mark tells a story, but he likes to tell a yarn,

you know, that makes him look good. And his story was always that he rang me up on Christmas Eve, which was the day that me and Trace got married, and he said, I rang him up, and he said, oh, hi, Mark, me and Trace have just got married, and I said, congratulations, you're sacked.

But it didn't happen like that. Not told Smith I was getting married, and Steve was my best man, so me and Trace got married the very last people on Christmas Eve in Sale Town Hall Steve was my best man

when it opened again on the 2nd of January Steve and Heather got married in the same place the very first people to get married and I was his best man and Smithy wasn't told about that either and it was that day actually maybe, that he rang

Steve reminded me of this because I've got a terrible memory, but yeah, the phone went in his house and we're all having a party after he's got married, and it's Mark for you, why is he ringing me here? I don't know, and then he said oh hi Mark, I'd like to meet you tomorrow in the old Garrett pub

on Princess Street in Manchester. Yeah, OK. I thought, Ryan's on the wall here. Yeah. And, yeah, and then I went out to see him and they said, oh, we're going to tour Europe without him and if he doesn't work, well, I should come back. You're all right. Thanks, anyway.

In the days that you were in the band, would he do the thing that he does now of wandering around and sort of sabotaging the musicians on stage and turning their amps down or pushing their keyboards over or whatever? He would interfere with the volumes every now and then. But no, I think that, don't they call it, he's got the title of onstage mixing? Okay.

Right, he's like playing the whole band as an instrument. Yeah, just, you know, real proper Svengali can tell everybody exactly where they need to be and how loud they need to be. Because it's that great, I mean, it's horrible to watch, really. But the meltdown in New York, have you seen... Oh, yeah. Browns, where he gets on stage eventually

with just Julian Eagle and says, if it's me and your granny on bongos, it's the fall, famously. Have you seen that? I think I tried to watch it, but it seemed too grim. Yeah, it is grim. At one point, Carl jumps over the drum kit

and grabs him by the throat. He drops the microphone, the guitarist kicks him up the backside, then he over the drum kit and grabs him by the throat. He drops the microphone. The guitarist kicks him up the backside. Then he gets up. It's a bit like a comedy. But there's one point where he's trying to get past Steve Hanley to turn Steve's bass down, and Steve's just shuffling from side to side

like a football defender, trying not to let the attacker get past him, you know? He was just hammered, though, wasn't he? Yeah. I think in those days he was a... just hammered, though, wasn't he? Yeah. I think in those days he was a... I don't know, I wasn't in the band, but, you know, he likes to drink, so... So then you had another band, though, after the fall.

Yeah, the Creepers. Didn't really amount to anything. We were going for about five years. And you managed to... At that point, Mark had already written the Mark Reilly to, at that point, Mark had already written the Mark Reilly song, was that right? Hey, Mark Reilly, which is just Hey, Bo Diddley, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Which was supposed to be a dig, was it? Oh, yeah. I think the words are, he's got a spider, he's got a snake, he's got four musos at his wake, I think. But then you wrote a little comeback track, Jump A Clown, Jumper Clown, Jumper Clown Funny nose, funny floor Jumper Clown, Jumper Clown Yeah, that was about Mark. So it's like you're in a Lennon and McCartney digging war.

It was pathetic, really. I mean, we were calling each other names in the press. And you mentioned, I think the lyrics to Jumper Clown reference the Australian dance floor incident, don't they? Yeah, dare to dance on a nosy floor, bloodied nose, bloodied boar, I think. Yeah. So, you know, I am a massive fan of Mark's.

I think he's great. And, you know, they were my favourite band when I joined them. Yeah. I think if you look back over his career, he needs to be able to vent his spleen or take the piss out of people around him. There doesn't seem to be anything else that really fires him up.

But does it, presumably you don't get any pleasure from listening to fall records anymore? Well, I don't listen to, I don't listen to the Creepy Records, I don't listen to the Fall Records. It was funny because I went to Record Store Day, to Piccadilly, and they had Roach Rumble blasting out and I just yeah I went through to him and said take this off

and he went oh you're not on this one are you yes I am yeah oh right yeah what do you do you know just and yes I heard

Roche Rumble for the first time in a long time the other day now and then I like to stop the chat and put the jingle in it stops the ramble topics leaking out and mingling and then I like to stop the chat and put the jingle in

It stops the ramble topics leaking out and mingling And if you like you can take a little dance Move your body around inside your pants I'm moving Now I'm grooving I'm moving once again And now it's back to the podcast Who's this guy? I don't know

I've got a gift for you, Mark There you go Cinnamon and tea tree oil infused toothpicks You're a gent Thank you very much indeed They're great because you can chew them So you pick out whatever food you have in your teeth. Brilliant.

But then you can leave them in your mouth and sort of suck on them and chew on them. And this very strong cinnamon and tea tree essence is secreted and it's just delicious. And I'm going to be very name-droppy and say how I came to have them. First, Ed from Radiohead. He had some. He's into all that kind of stuff. And then Jonathan Ross. I saw about a week after Bowie died, and he said, have one of these. And my special toothpicks. He had a little toothpick holder and everything, a little silver holder.

He said, Bowie turned me on to these. This is what he used to use to give up smoking. Really? Yeah. Oh, wow. The only thing I would say is that they have really a very strong odour. It ends up smelling a bit like a kind of, you know what I mean by like a sort of funky animal fur skin?

Have you ever felt like, maybe like a... If you go close to a moose or a bear... You mean musk? Yeah, it's like a... Are we talking, like, off an elephant or something? Right, it's like a... But a creature with thick fur. Right, OK.

But anyway... Do they keep the flavour? Once you've opened it, do they... Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. Good man. No, they're really good. Well, if it's good enough for you and Bowie, I'm in, mate. I'm in.

Yeah. So, I mean, we were talking about Bowie last night when I saw you and I was doing the Bug special. You had a few encounters with him, though, right? Yeah, met him quite a lot. Introduced him on stage three times and the last time I met him, it was kind of yardstick in my own mind

as to how well I got to know him. I didn't ask for his autograph for the first time. He was kind of like, oh, I didn't ask for his autograph then, but I've got it ten times already. It's a bit embarrassing. And so, yeah, I got to know him quite well and he was always really, really sweet and playful and, again, clever, like Iggy.

That's probably why they were just such good mates, you know, because they were cut from the same cloth, really. And, yeah, I had a lot of fun with him, you know. He was just great. You know, I even said to him, would you do a phone call for me, an answering machine message? Yeah. And the ruse being the phone...

I say I've got an interview with David Bowie today, and then it was like a bit Mark and Lodge, really, but it was on Six Music. I say, all right, I'm going to put a record on now, and I'm going to go for a leak. This is whatever. Dead Kennedys, holidays in Cambodia. I do the sound effect of a door going,

then the phone ringing, and then the phone stops, and then I come back in and carry on, and then the voicemail goes, and I go, God, who's this? I missed a call. And it was him going, Mark, Mark are you there? Mark, it's David you're not there are you? alright

I'll try again and I ran it every week for about six weeks saying he's going to ring today and I'm not going to miss it and then it'd be like Michelle will pop red in the door and go, Mark your car's getting clamped, so right, okay, ding ding but you're door. I go, Mark, your car's getting clamped. They're like, OK. Ding, ding.

But you're David Bowie. You don't have to do that for, you know, for me on a station that had barely any listeners at that point, 2004 or whatever. What do you think your favourite Bowie album is overall, which is the one you keep going back to? I think it's Young Americans. Is it?

Yeah. And it's so different to the rest of his stuff, isn't it? And of course, when it came out, I was a little bit kind of unsure about it. Yeah, it's the one that took me longest to get to grips with. Yeah, I can imagine, yeah. Well, you see, Young Americans has got Across the Universe on it,

which I didn't, I wasn't fond of that version. You're right, but he didn't write it, so we'll have to let him off. Yeah. And do you know, I mean, the original album didn't have that on, did it? Or Fame's Gauster. Yeah, he recorded an album called Gauster, which he'd never released. So Tony Visconti made this album, Gauster, The Gauster, I think.

Then he hooked up with Lennon, went in the studio, did Fame, obviously a great tune and was a kind of focal point for the album. And they did Across the Universe Universe probably just because they could and they thought of Bowie sitting there doing a Lennon song with Lennon so it's kind of a little bit That's right and then he was probably too embarrassed to leave it off Probably

So yeah I could live without that particular track but it's good enough They're all great I've had so many points in my life that are marked out by little love affairs with individual tracks, you know. Right, yeah. Especially when I was younger and getting to know them.

Funnily enough, Lodger made a big impression on me because it's one of those albums that I suppose critics say, oh, it's not quite as good as some of the other ones or it didn't really work as well as Low or Heroes. But I really love some of that stuff on there. Well, Station to Station for me is up there as well yeah and i saw that tour and i do remember you know in all honesty being a little bit disappointed because i had terrible seats right at the back of wembley arena john conti was sat in the row behind me and he was like a boxing champion at that point in time so i don't

know i don't know he obviously didn't do his job point in time, so I don't know. He obviously didn't do his job properly there, but he was miles away. And I'd been watching Cracked Actor, looking at the photographs of Bowie doing these amazing stage shows in America, just desperate to see him doing all of these great routines and the dance routines and getting tied up by Jeff McCormack, Warren Warren Peace and all that kind of stuff

then of course he just comes with a stark bright white light and the suit you know classic chilling stuff really amazing but at that point in time you know yeah I was 15 got a coach to London got a coach back the same night to Manchester and

I just wanted him to be doing some you know some of his theatrics and we didn't get any of it but that's that's great you learn as you get old and a bit more mature that's what it was all about wasn't it? But it's disappointing when you're young though isn't it because I had that I had that same sort of experience admittedly I didn't see that tour I saw Glass Spiders which is a different kettle of cod, really. But when you build it up so much as a teenager, it can't possibly live up to those expectations or those desires when you go and see your hero live.

And all my favorite experiences watching live music have been surprises when maybe you didn't even know the band. Right. And you find yourself in a bar on holiday or something, and there's only 10 people there, and someone starts playing in the corner and you're like oh this is amazing yeah yeah and um or i mean i love the band spoon right and i saw them in london at the borderline and uh i was right at the front of the stage and it's a tiny little room because they're a big band in america but yeah no one i mean comparatively they're much less well known in the uk so it was a small really small gig for them but oh my god it

was so great it's one of those things i'll always remember what have been those moments for you when you've just had a uh a musical epiphany well the last one was watching the ocs at the atp bash in november um and i've been after seeing them for years i tried to watch them in liverpool a few Well, the last one was watching the OCs at the ATP bash in November. And I've been after seeing them for years. I tried to watch them in Liverpool a few years ago, but it was one of those urban festivals and the club was full. The Casimir, now sadly gone, and there was a queue of 200 people outside. And I could have been a bit of a twat about it and gone and tried to get in,

you know, but I couldn't bring myself to do it. And so, no, so I didn't see them. But I saw them, so I haven't been, you know, I always say that the two different artists that I want to get in session more than anybody else is Joanna Newsome and the OCs. And it just never worked out with the OCs and they've not played Manchester for years and when they did play, I wasn't here.

So when I got to see them at Pontins Prestatyn I thought it was going to explode it was that exciting the best band in the world for me and they lived up to it John Dwyer is the daddy because I love all that

I love that LA garage scene anyway but that was the OCs blew me away and I do remember seeing these new Puritans playing at the Night and Day Cafe in Manchester around the first album, Beat Pyramid

that was just a real moment for me, that was incredible and also at the Night and Day Cafe, the Fiery Furnaces doing Widow City one of the greatest things I've ever seen. Hey, thanks so much, Mark. Pleasure. A real pleasure. Always nice to see you.

Yeah, likewise. I've never done one of these before. It's intriguing. Have you ever done a drunken one? No. I mean, I feel inarticulate enough when I'm stone-cold sober. I think it would just be a disaster. You know, that's not true. Have you ever been pissed on the air?

Yeah. Have you? Yeah. How was that? It was just the night-time show, so going back a long way, but we would go, Mark and I would go to the BBC club to now have some food,

and then you'd have a pint, and then you might have two pints, and then if you're getting a bit carried away, you would unwisely have three pints, and then quite often when somebody, when we'd have a guest in, could be Simon Armitage, Mark Kermode, Will Self, whoever, we would sometimes have a few beers.

And so, particularly on a Thursday night, so if the few beers on air just took place after three or maybe four in the club, then you got a little bit giddy at times, but I don't think any real misdemeanours took place. No, you never swore on air? No, no, I didn't. I do remember there was at one point,

and I think we were sick of the sight of each other, to be honest, Mark and I, but have you ever heard that joke where a woman sits down at the breakfast table and the husband says to the wife, I hate you. I hate everything about you. I loathe you. You are a despicable person and I wish I could never see you again.

I wish you would disappear from my life and everybody else's life. You're vile. And you blah, blah, blah. And then the wife says, I beg your pardon. And he says, I'm sorry, I just meant to say pass a cornflakes. Not the greatest gag in the world, but I remember sitting opposite Mark one day

and we were talking about the Sweeney for some reason. I think we'd given away a Sweeney box set. And he said, like I say, I think we've had enough of each other for whatever reason. And he said, do you like the Sweeney? I said it's alright

and he said they fucking spoon feed you the shit and you lap it up I was like really? And you were live on air yeah and he was like because he immediately was like put a record on and the phone's going and then he comes out of it

and then he said I'm really sorry about that I don't know where that came from I apologise, profusely it was very unprofessional, I'm sorry so job done, then he put a record on and he went, I don't know where that came from he said, I don't even mind the Sweeney so it was one of them, exactly like that gag

where he's probably looking at me thinking I'm sick of the sight of you and I'm sat there thinking i'm sick of the sight of you and then but i kept the lid on it better than he did obviously thanks man pleasure real pleasure this is an advert for Squarespace. Every time I visit your website, I see success. Yes, success. The way that you look at the world makes the world want to say yes. It looks very professional.

I love browsing your videos and pics, and I don't want to stop. And I'd like to access your members area and spend in your shop. These are the kinds of comments people will say about your website if you build it with Squarespace. Just visit squarespace.com slash Buxton for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, because you will want to launch, use the offer code BUXTON to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. So put the smile of success on your face with squarespace yes so there we go thanks very much indeed to mark riley really appreciate him giving up his

time and coming on the podcast as he, not something that he would necessarily normally do. I think he's probably more comfortable sitting in the presenter chair for his own show, talking about other people's music and that kind of thing. But I was really glad that he was up for coming on and talking to me. So cheers, Mark. talking to me. So cheers, Mark. Anyway, at the end of last week's podcast with Ian Lee, I was referring to the fact that I was off to see Radiohead at the Roundhouse in London. And it was a really fun evening. I had a great time. And my son was with me, as I said, it was his first big show that he'd seen by a band that he actually knew and liked because he's pretty into Radiohead. And I think he was always politely interested in them before because he knew I liked them.

And he was interested in the fact that, you know, I knew these rock stars. You know, I knew these rock stars. But he has since sort of discovered their music for himself and really got into it and really got a lot out of it. So he was very excited. And so I was able to experience the gig somewhat vicariously, enjoying his delight at what was going on when they started to play songs he liked especially and you know and also to enjoy his general excitement at the strangeness of the experience of going to a gig

for the first time because it is very intense isn't it when you if you think back to the first time you ever did that sort of thing it's's a powerful experience, all those people together focused on the same thing. And especially with a band like Radiohead, who command such a lot of excitement and devotion, and their songs are so emotional a lot of the time. It was really a great experience for me and for my son, I hope. What was also very powerful was the occasionally intense irritation that I felt a few times when people nearby where we were, and we were sat right up at the back

on the balcony at the roundhouse, but there was a couple of guys. Well, there was a few people behind us and a couple of guys to to the side of us who just insisted on chatting quite a lot yeah i wasn't so keen on king of limbs oh never really did it for me i mean it's good you know it's very good if it was a record by any other band then you'd think yeah this is a good record but as a radio head record i thought i don't know you know i'm not getting i'm not getting i'm not feeling it and you've always got to give their records a few listens don't you before they really click but this one never really did click i mean i think the last really classic record was probably

in rainbows and i really feel that moon shaped pool is kind of like the spiritual follow up to him, rainbows, etc, etc. aren't actually a few meters away from you in the same fucking room playing the actual fucking songs that you supposedly love so fucking much. What about that as an idea? Yeah? Whoa. Chill out, Buckles, you old fart. I bet you've done it before. Yes, I probably have had a little chit chat in a gig at some point in my life, but I wouldn't do it now. And so that's the most important thing. Everyone else has to do the things that I want now because this is now. All right. Anyway, good news.

anyway good news if you're a Radiohead fan and uh and if you're a fan of ramble chats in general because I had a good one with Johnny Greenwood of the band Radiohead which I hope to have ready to present to you at some time in the next week or two so look out for that but that is it for this week thanks very much indeed to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for production support and to Matt Lamont for additional edit whizbottery. And thank you for listening right to the end. You are a

true podcat and one of my most favourite people. And I'm sure you don't talk at gigs. I've got to chill out, don't I? Actually, no, I don't have to chill out. I've got to warm up currently is what I've got to do. I've got to get home and build a fire or something. But hey, listen, that's my problem. Until next we're please take extra precautions. I love you. Bye! What are you going to get that, Rose?

Stupid. Thank you.