THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.214 - MIKI BERENYI

Episode Date: November 21, 2023

Adam talks with English singer, songwriter, book writer and co-founder of seminal 90s shoegaze band Lush, Miki Berenyi about private school shame, Miki's unconventional and at times troubling upbringing, meeting her pop idols as a young fan in 1980s London, the excesses of life on the road with the 1992 Lollapalooza tour and there's audio evidence of a young Miki attending a show by a legendary Indie band just a year after they had formed.This episode includes references to child abuse, including sexual, physical and psychological abuse, which some may find distressing. Should you have any concerns about a child, you can contact the NSPCC’s Helpline on [e-mail] or on 0808 800 5000, where dedicated child protection specialists will be able to help.The NSPCC’s website also has advice and resources for adults supporting children, and children can contact Childline any time on 0800 1111 or by chat on the website.This conversation was recorded face-to-face in London on October 26th, 2023FACT CHECKING SANTA: Re. Thompson Twins lyrics to 'All Fall Out', actually it’s ’I dream in red’ not I dream in ‘rap’. Sorry for any pain caused.Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production support and conversation editing.Podcast artwork by Helen GreenADAM BUXTON PODCAST LIVE @ LONDON PALLADIUM, Tuesday 19th March, 2024RELATED LINKSMIKI 2023 LIVE DATES (INSTAGRAM) FINGERS CROSSED: HOW MUSIC SAVED ME FROM SUCCESS by Miki Berenyi - 2022 (ROUGH TRADE WEBSITE)THE SMITHS LIVE, CAMDEN DINGWALLS (AUDIO ONLY) - 30th August 1983 (YOUTUBE)Miki and Emma can be heard calling for 'Handsome Devil' at 43.26LUSH 120 MINUTES INTERVIEW - 1996 (YOUTUBE)LUSH ON SNUB TV - 1990 (YOUTUBE)MIKI BERENYI OF LUSH - IT WAS THE BEST OF TIMES IT WAS THE WORST OF TIMES David Hepworth and Mark Ellen interview - 2022 (YOUTUBE)GIRL IN A BAND: TALES FROM THE ROCK'N'ROLL FRONTLINE 1 - 2015 (YOUTUBE)GIRL IN A BAND: TALES FROM THE ROCK'N'ROLL FRONTLINE 2 - 2015 (YOUTUBE)BBC doc about the experiences of women in the music business presented by writer Kate Mossman featuring contributions from Miki, Tina Weymouth, Viv Albertine, Carol Kaye, Brix Smith Start and others.MARGARET THATCHER - THE WALDEN INTERVIEW - 1989 (YOUTUBE) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, this is Adam Buxton here. This is just a heads up to say this episode contains references to child abuse, including sexual, physical and psychological abuse that some listeners may find distressing to hear. It's not a large section of the conversation and we don't go into any detail, but I wanted you to be aware. Should you have any concerns about a child, then you can contact the NSPCC's helpline on help at nspcc.org.uk, or you can call 0808 800 5000, and their dedicated child protection specialist will be able to help. The NSPCC's website also has advice and resources for adults supporting children, and children can contact Childline anytime on 0800 1111 or chat via the website. You'll find all this information plus links in the description of today's podcast.

Right, now you're probably in the mood for a boisterous intro theme, aren't you? All right, here you go. I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin. Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening. I took my microphone and found some human folk. Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke. My name is Adam Buxton. I'm a man.

I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan. Hey, how you doing, podcats? It's Adam Buxton here. I'm out in the fields of Norfolk on a beautiful morning. I've got to tell you, I don't to like rub your nose in it or anything but it is nice out here just at this moment it's early in the morning my wife is accompanying my daughter on an important netball mission my sons are off at college so it's just me and Rosie in the castle today. And we got up early.

And the sun has just come up. And it is looking spectacular out here. Quite cold. Little bit of wind. The fields are very green. But the trees in the hedgerows are crazy autumnal shades of brown and red and gold

and doglegs is up ahead poking her leg with joy at the whole scene I hope you're doing well out there hey look remember I said that we were looking into the possibility of doing some live podcast shows? Well, we have the first one lined up on the evening of Tuesday, the 19th of March, 2024.

I will be on stage at the London Palladium, no less, with a special guest, a friend of the podcast. with a special guest, a friend of the podcast. I hope it's going to be the first of a handful of live podcast shows that I do around the country in the first half of next year. There's a link for that Palladium show, though, in the description of today's podcast. I hope you can make it. But right now, let me tell you a bit about podcast number 214, which features a rambling conversation

with English singer, songwriter, book writer and co-founder of the seminal 90s shoegaze band Lush, Mickey Bereni. Mickey facts. Mickey Eleonora Bereni was born in 1967 in London. Her Japanese mother was an actor, Yasuko Nagasumi, whose credits included small roles in the Bond film You Only Live Twice and the cult classic Rollerball, as well as TV shows like It Ain't Half Hot Mum and the sci-fi show Space 1999, in which she had a recurring role as a character called Yasuko. I actually didn't ask Mickey about that part of her mum's life, even though I was a massive Space 1999 fan

and certainly remember Jasko's character. Mickey's father was a Hungarian freelance journalist called Ivan Bireny, who split from his wife Jasko when Mickey, their only child, was just three. Following the split, Jasko moved to Los Angeles, where she pursued her acting career, while Ivan remained in London with Mickey, who divided her time between her parents for the rest of her childhood and teenage years. When Mickey's mother grew concerned that the school Mickey was attending was getting her into bad habits, Mickey was sent to Queen's College, a London private school.

That's where Mickey met Emma Anderson, with whom she would form the band Lush in 1987. Lush was signed to the record label 4AD in 1989, eventually splitting after releasing a string of critically acclaimed albums in 1996, following the build-up of tensions within the band and then, tragically, the suicide of the band's drummer and Mickey's former boyfriend Chris Ackland. Lush reunited for a series of well-received shows in 2016 and even released an EP of new music but by the end of the year they had once again agreed to call it a day. In 2018 Mickey formed a new band, Poroshka, with her husband and father of her children, Moose, who used to be in the band Moose. Recently, Mickey has been playing gigs as part of the Mickey Bereni Trio.

My conversation with Mickey was recorded face-to-face in London towards the end of October this year, 2023, and I was very glad she agreed to talk to me because I'd read her memoir, to talk to me because I'd read her memoir, Fingers Crossed, How Music Saved Me From Success, published in 2022, and I really enjoyed it. The book contains many interesting and entertaining stories about Mickey's musical career, but it was the chapters about how her parents came to be in London at the end of the 60s, their relationship, and Mickey's unconventional upbringing that made a particularly deep impression and I wanted to talk to Mickey about that stuff on the podcast. There's loads of funny and relatable details about Mickey's childhood and teenage years in the book as well but there are also some shocking accounts of her father's wayward approach to parenting,

and most particularly her relationship with her abusive paternal grandmother, Nora, some of which, just so you're aware, we do talk about briefly in the course of this conversation. But we also spoke about happier times, especially Mickey's years as a young music fan, loose on the streets of London's West End, where she and her pals would occasionally bump into some of their pop idols. We also hear audio evidence of a young Mickey and Emma attending a show by a legendary indie band

just a year after they had formed. And Mickey told me about some of the excesses of life on the road in America in 1992 as part of a Lollapalooza tour that also featured bands like the Jesus and Mary Chain, Ministry, the Butthole Surfers, Pearl Jam, and the Ice Cube. But we began by comparing notes on our similar educational backgrounds.

Back at the end with a bit more waffle but right now with mickey bereni here we go ramble chat let's have a ramble chat we'll focus first on this then concentrate on that come on let's chew the fat and have a ramble chat. Put on your conversation coat and find your talking hat. La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, We were trying to figure out just before we started recording if perhaps we had met IRL before. I don't think so. But you did say in an email before we met that maybe we went to some of the same discos in London when we were teenagers. So explain to listeners why that might have been. I tell you what, it's because I listen to your stuff a lot.

I don't want to be too kiss ass, but there's a lot of sort of paths that kind of overlap where I think, oh, he was a Thompson Twins fan or, you know, various sort of stages. I mean, including that kind of 90s thing where I think, oh, you know, I was probably just coming out of that world as you were probably being invited to hobnob in various sort of scene kind of places. But the thing that always struck me was I don't think there was many people who used to talk about having been to a private school because it was deeply uncalled to i think it probably is and i think and me and emma were always really open about it when we did like interviews we said like well we met at queen's college so that's the private school it's in harley street and i just i've never really understood the thing of having such a problem with that kind of issue that you would actually lie about

it right did you never have pr that advised you against talking about it no because we did oh really yeah when we were at channel four and we were promoting the first series of the adam and joe show very nice pr person said i think don't mention it unless you really have to. Don't lie about it, but certainly don't chat about it. Wow. I think maybe it was around the same sort of time that people like Amanda Ducadene were getting well known. Do you remember her?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I remember her. Didn't she go out with John Taylor? I was probably deeply upset about that yeah why because you wanted to go out with amanda or john taylor well no john taylor i imagine yeah she was one of the so-called wild children wild do you remember the wild child thing yeah totally and they were all quite well-heeled young women on the whole it girl as well of it girl as well, wasn't it? Yeah, girls about town.

And they were generally the children of quite wealthy parents. Amanda Ducadene, the daughter of a famous racing driver, I think. And she was also a presenter on The Word, which was a big deal back in those days. And then I always remember one episode of The Word when Amandaanda ducadene's brother bruiser yes came on he was a bit of a knob wasn't he though i'm sure he's a delightful fellow but bruiser came out a he's called bruiser yeah b he was wearing a sort of mad the look was you know this is a good looking guy but the look was... You know, this is a good-looking guy. But the look was low-cut white T-shirt. One of those really plunging white T-shirts.

And quite a little leather jacket. Yes, leather jacket. That's what I remember. But the thing was, it was quite hard to understand what Brewer was actually saying. Because he was so posh. And he had to introduce the band Kingmaker. Now for playing in the studio

we're going to a big welcome for the band Kingmaker Okay, go Kingmaker. That's the thing I remember. So I think that's the kind of impression that a lot of people had of privately educated people

and i totally get why that's an issue but i think sort of my thing about talking about private school was that it makes it seem like it's just a single experience you know that everyone who goes to private school is like equally wealthy, equally privileged. It's a wonderful experience for everyone. And that was not my experience. I don't know what it's like these days, but there were a lot of people whose parents could just about afford to send them to these schools. So if you were one of those people, you were quite rejected, you know, and you felt you were the poor relation and you were kind of sneered at not by everyone but there were a lot of quite snobby people there that's why I kind of wasn't really

ashamed of it because I just thought well I kind of understand why my parents sent me there in a way but it's not what you think I was always thinking why don't you ask me about this because it's actually more interesting than you think it's not loads of girls playing lacrosse and sort of you know everyone's this sort of Enid Blyton posh boarding school or whatever sounds like someone wasn't picked for the lacrosse why did you end up there then how come you came to be there uh because I mean once my parents split up when I was about four so from that age I was kind of living between them and it depended where they were moving to so initially I was kind of you know because my mum was in London I was spending half the week with each of them then my mum moved to Windsor so then I went to school in Windsor then you know then

when my mum moved to America I came back to London so I was constantly having to code shift so in order to fit in I think I'd go too far yeah right I think at Ladbroke I just thought right I'm going to smoke I'm going to start shoplifting I'm going to start hanging out at bus stops and you know graffitiing I'm just going to do whatever it stops and you know graffiting I'm just gonna do whatever it takes to fit in so my mum really wanted me to go and live in America but I had to kind of choose where I would live and I chose to live with my dad which in many ways was a massive mistake and I probably didn't want to admit that it was so rather than admit that I was in you know getting into real trouble I just sort of stuck it out and my mum's solution was to send me to a private school which was fine

you know they were very nice at that school a lot of the people but it's where you met Emma with whom you formed Lush yeah she came a little bit I think she came about a year or two after I started there what are the things that make you say that it was possibly a massive mistake to stay in London? Because my dad was not a very good parent. I think, you know, at the actual work of being a parent, he was great company and he was fun to be around. And, you know, he loved me and all of those a parent. He was great company and he was fun to be around and, you know, he loved me and all of those important things. But he was just totally impractical and, you know, quite selfish. And I know quite a few people who were born around the same time as me and who come from

divorced families. And it's remarkable how often men of that generation would abandon a family, start a new one, and just cut off from, you know, their previous children. And to my dad's credit, he fought tooth and nail for me to sort of remain in his life, which I did, you know, appreciate and continue to. It's just that once he had me, he didn't really know how to deal with me. You didn't have brothers and sisters, right? No. Yeah. So yeah, he's just dealing with you. You write in the book about all of this. And there's an incredible level of detail. You write really well. I really enjoyed reading the book so much. you talk about your parents jasko and am i pronouncing that right yeah and ivan or ivan did you call him ivan it's funny isn't it because jasko and

ivan i just say but yes jasko and uh he was hungarian yeah he has an extraordinary backstory i mean both your parents do really that you detail in the book. But briefly, the stuff about him growing up in Hungary and then what life was like after middle class. And his uncle was in the kind of Hungarian equivalent of the Nazi party. So, you know, dad always insisted that he was just a bit of a pen pusher you know rather than you know slaughtering jews but i think nora never let that go i mean she was like thoroughly unrepentant about she thought hitler was terrific yeah she thought he was great you know she really was like you know that man was a saint kind of it wasn't just sort of oh well that was then and blah blah blah it was genuinely like held a torch. I mean, there's quite an interesting history with Germany and Hungary. You know, I think someone I know sort of explained

that part of the allegiance of Hungary with the Nazis was that following the First World War, they really didn't have any international allies who supported their wish to kind of reclaim some of their territories following the First World War. So the Germans kind of said, yeah, we'll help you out with that effectively. And that's probably putting quite a soft gloss on it. Jewish himself and Hungarian did sort of say, actually, they kind of held off for as long as they could with that kind of persecution of the Jews. You know, Hungarian Jews were actually quite integrated into, you know, it wasn't an issue. I don't think antisemitism, according to him,

was really a massive issue prior to that. And then it started to creep in clearly because of political allegiances. And then I think suddenly things started to tumble and then around started to creep in clearly because of political allegiances and then I think suddenly things started to tumble and then around I think nine like quite close to the end of the war is when Hungary sent vast numbers of Jews to Auschwitz and it was just appalling but quite a lot of that generation are quite unrepentant about that in Hungary, I have to say. I don't think they ever tackled that in the way that if you go to Germany, people are quite self-flagellating about it, you know, and rightly so. When did your dad get out of Hungary? He came over in 56, which is when kind of most of that diaspora happened because the Russians came in and it was difficult if you were middle class

in particular I think because you were a class alien you were class alien so your dad comes over goes to Bristol University yeah once he's graduated gets into journalism and writes about sports that's how he finds himself out in Tokyo at the Olympics towards the end of the 60s, where he met your ma. Yeah. Yasuko. Yes. What was she doing at the time? Well, she's a decade younger than him.

So I think she was probably at university, I think. So she got kind of stationed at some hotel, like all the kind of university people would get like you know the olympics was a big deal so they were given kind of jobs and my mum was very pretty so she had to stand around in kimono at some hotel and be a tourist guide or whatever but probably got free tickets to all the games and stuff so that's how they kind of crossed paths and then how quickly did she move to the uk uh well not long after because i'm trying to think 64 olympics wasn't it and i was born in 67 oh yeah okay so she met my dad and i don't think it took very long i think she literally he sent her the money for a ticket and that was it she was out of there and just landed in 1960s swinging London. But then they started getting visits from the mother-in-law

from Nora, Ivan's mum. And in your book, you talk about some of the things that she used to do and say to your ma. You know, it was just so weird because it was, you know, this is where I sort of think, what the hell was my dad doing because it's like okay you've got a mother who is an absolute racist right yeah and you're gonna bring her into the heart of your new family which has literally just existed for a year or whatever and just existed for a year or whatever and all the kind of racist abuse that my grandmother would throw at my mum he would just overlook oh god you know what she's like ignore it do you know what I mean yeah I just don't really understand mother-in-law's what are you gonna do like what are you doing I don't you know it wasn't that that drove my mother away it was his endless womanizing which he was completely

unrepentant about even at the end you know when he was dying or certainly on his last legs and he did sort of get a bit sentimental and was like you know your mother was you know she was the one she was the love of my life and i was a bit like come on you know i mean really he wrote a letter a 15 page letter to tomiko yasko's mother your grandmother and you reproduce a part of that in the book and it's an amazing letter like maybe i'll quote a little bit from the letter. Okay, fair. And then people will understand what I'm talking about. So this is a letter that he wrote to his mother-in-law

when the marriage was basically falling apart because he'd been shagging around so much. And he was kind of begging for help from his mother-in-law to try and get Jasko back. He said, I'm dead inside. I've smoked 200 cigarettes in the last two days and slept virtually nothing in the last two weeks. I'm not saying this for sympathy, just to explain why perhaps I am now willing to acquiesce to anything. You see, for me, it was my destiny that I marry Jesco and that I keep beside her whatever happens.

The better things in life always come very hard. And perhaps two people can only really love and appreciate each other if their love is purified in the blaze of selfishness and wantonness. that's pretty bold to say like you know in a way mother-in-law we have the greatest love of all because it's been purified in the blaze of so much shagging of other people i would point out that that letter was never sent yeah so he may have read that over and gone, no, I'm not going to get away with that. And then I like that he gives it to you as well to do what? To show you that he really loved your mum. I mean, they weren't like really antagonistic towards each other. They did talk and they could get on.

But I think there was always too much information, right, of my parents and because of that I would defend the other one and my dad also was you know he really didn't have any kind of boundaries so he would regularly talk about women that he was shagging and give me way too much detail right and you're how old oh god from when I was like six or seven, you know, that that stuff went on. It wasn't till I was like 11 or 12 that I was going, I really don't want to hear this, actually, seriously. And he would do that about my mother as well. You know, well, you think she's such an angel. And then he would start telling me things.

And I'd go, you know, that fingers in the ears and go, you know, like, no, I don't want to hear this. This is alongside I mean you clearly love the guy and you clearly love both your parents but you are aware of how strange and inappropriate some of their behavior was and you know your pa would quite often be driving somewhere and say hang on I've just got to stop for 10 minutes and then nip inside to have it away with someone and leave you there for an hour and a half or whatever in the car just saying if anyone comes along just wave them away I won't be long and also going to clubs like was this more than once or one time when where you went to a club no it happened a few times. He would get me to help pick up women. But, you know, the disappointment is I thought,

great, we're going out together. It's like 10.30 at night. How exciting. And then I'd realised that there were strings attached. So his kind of technique was to, you know, we'd have a bit of a dance and we'd have a bit of a nice time. And then he'd point me at some woman and go that one so he's trying to set himself up as just a nice unthreatening guy look at this nice guy with his daughter and having a nice it's an icebreaker isn't it to sort of send some little

kid up and you know i'm sort of tugging at someone's sleeve and hello i can't find my daddy have you seen him i was dancing with him earlier and it's sort of quite a good way of telling if a woman is quite sweet I suppose they don't go well you shouldn't be here anyway you know and stop bothering me yeah but if they're nice and they're friendly and they're sweet then that was my dad's indication to sort of swoop in and start chatting and and yeah it usually worked if i'm honest yeah and has it been weird like talking about some of this stuff which you i know have been asked about in other interviews because obviously people are coming at the whole thing with their own opinions and with their own judgments about the way your parents behaved and some of it is is tough you know there's another part of the book that deals with

essentially abuse that you experienced with Nora the grandmother who would behave totally inappropriately with you physically and emotionally long cleaning sessions and things like that, to say nothing of basically feeding you only sweets and Coke. And raw bacon. Right. You know, we're laughing, but some of the stuff in there is chilling. You talk about her having dementia towards the end of her life when she was living with you and your dad. So who knows what was going on with her.

But the stuff that was happening to you and the environment that you were in, the kind of normalization of totally inappropriate sexual behavior and conversations, that is hard to read about, to think about you experiencing experiencing and so what is it like for you though having other people bring their preconceptions and their judgments to that whole thing i mean i understand it it's such a weird thing to have to try and explain to people because obviously they come at it with their lack of knowledge of what that experience is you know all they can see is it objectively and feel horrified because of course if anything like that happened to their own children or themselves it just feels like it's just a terrible thing but I think part of the

point of why I was trying to write this book so honestly was to convey that, you know, people have a very odd idea, I think, of what child abuse is. And I think that people with the best intentions, you know, focus on the really, really terrible horrors of it. But the problem is, it doesn't really help a lot of people who've gone through it, because they don't feel like it's been terrible enough to merit that response if you see what I mean and actually it's the normalization that's the thing that is trickier because it ingrains certain behaviors and certain like a kind of cluelessness of spotting red flags as you get older and you know that's actually the hardest hurdle to get over. It's not like my life

was just this endless, bleak horror of Nora abusing me and torturing me, and my dad being a selfish shit, basically. There was an awful lot of incredibly entertaining and funny things in between, which is probably part of the problem. problem you know if something's just relentlessly bad you can do something about it it's very clear that that child has to be taken out of that environment but if these are just blips on this landscape and actually it's all kind of bundled up with what is quite an exciting life sometimes it's much harder I think to recognize what the problematic areas are and it was almost in retrospect that I was more able to identify them because then you're you're a bit more normalized to the outside world then you can sort of realize that okay I don't think

that was normal so I totally accept if people say fucking hell he sounds like a nightmare because I i do understand that it's just that my experience of it because i loved him yeah is always going to be a completely different thing i can't be that objective about it i can only describe what it was and in your mind and as far as you are concerned at that point, correct me if I'm wrong, you weren't experiencing anything that made you feel like you had to tell your dad or sort of complain. Is that right? Like you weren't sort of saying, look, I think you should know granny does this and that. And what are you going to do about it? It wasn't that kind of environment. No. And I think part of it is because, you know, there was a lot of inappropriate behaviour from me with Nora, you know, fighting, swearing, being quite a bratty kid. So I think like it just seemed one of many things, like I could just as easily talk about this annoying thing about Nora or that one.

Her Nazi-ishness. Yeah, like that used to upset me you know the way she'd talk about my mom yeah did you have a sense of that that she was a racist that oh completely yeah right from very young because she focused on race and because I was Yasuko's daughter I do remember being very little and saying well hang on a minute but if she's a bow-legged Japanese whore like then surely that's half of me as well and it was the Japanese-ness that seemed to bother Nora an awful lot and I thought well how does it not bother you then when I've got that same thing yeah you know but she was so indiscriminate with her horribleness that I was very young when I've got that same thing, you know, but she was so indiscriminate with her horribleness that I was very young

when I realized that she was not someone to be trusted with any, any opinion at all. I mean, you, you try and be sort of balanced in the book, really, as far as, as far as you're able to be, but she's a menace. I mean, really, she doesn't have too many redeeming qualities, Nora. And when she's finally out of your life in the book, it's like you kind of feel a sense of relief for you. Is that how it felt to you? Yeah. I mean, I really hated her.

You know, I probably wrote about her in a much more balanced way than I felt at the time, because I did actually hate her enough to want to kill her. I just needed to get away I just and my dad was not really going to take how it was affecting me seriously so looking back you know I do think a lot of the way I behaved was down to just being wanting to be out of that house and out of that environment and trying to go to other people's houses and overstaying my welcome and staying out all night and doing whatever because going back to that house was just torture because she was you know she's bored herself as an adult and writing about it I could kind of see how someone can end up being such a negative force and I almost feel a bit sorry for her,

but certainly at the time, I just fucking hated her. So, you know, because I really didn't want to leave my dad. I didn't want to leave home. Yeah. I mean, it's pretty amazing that you got through it at all, I think. And that you are, you know, you're okay. And one of the sort of very sad coders to that whole thing because your father is no longer alive and on his deathbed he told you that he had also

had a very unhappy and weird relationship with his mum and that he had also experienced some of the same kind of abuse that you did at her hands and up to that point did you have any idea that that was the case none none and I think what made me really angry was I've never talked about it with him but in my kind of 20s I think it kind of coincided with things like child line and sort of child abuse becoming more more understood I suppose you know easier to talk about yeah you know like you didn't feel there's something about talking about that kind of thing that made you feel people would back away from you and do you know what I mean yeah and I think when it became more acceptable to be able to talk about those things I did talk to dad about it quite tentatively and he immediately

backed away and and I did understand he said like look this is my mother you're talking about and I I can't listen to this and I thought no fair enough I get that so I kind of left it so when he kind of revealed that what 30 years later or 25 years later, I was furious that I thought, wow, I gave you a golden opportunity to tell me about this and you didn't. But I just don't think he ever dealt with it. Yeah. I mean, it's hard to get beyond the fact of his knowing

what his mother was capable of and then leaving you with her? Well, his answer was, I didn't think she'd do it to you because you're a girl. Which I thought, I kind of understand the logic of that. And I do think actually it is quite typical of people who are abused as children you know I think often that abuse is kept a secret because children think that they're the only one that's part of the psychology isn't it you know you feel sort of stupid because you think oh it only happened to me and I think that's the trap of child abuse and that's how people groom people because they make those people feel that they're special. And actually, they're not.

They're doing it to other people. Well, I must say you write about it really well in the book and totally unself-pityingly. But so despite the fact that life at home is turbulent, you are getting the opportunity to escape and wander around the exciting West End of London with your pals. Tell me about what that was like, because I must have been, well, I was a couple of years younger than you, but I had that same sort of experience of teenage life, wandering around the West End with Joe and going to Flip of Hollywood, the clothes shop in Covent Garden and places like that. And apparently listening to a lot of the same music you were listening to. So what were you doing?

So when I met Emma and Maxine and Bunny, and, you know, we had our little group and Maxine lived in Kilburn. So most of these girls lived in Hampstead and Golders Green and they had really nice houses. And not that Maxine's house wasn't nice nice but I suddenly realised there was a second tier at this school of people that I could fit in with and because we were all actually rejected by the top set and that alpha mob we kind of you know rebelled seems like such a strong word. We just had to find another identity. Sure, you kind of dug into your outsider status. And it wasn't even like us trying to be hard or different. It was just trying to go somewhere where we were actually fucking welcome, not constantly judged.

And with that little group, we could go to sort of, I don't know, King's Road and see the kind of people with Mohicans or go to Kensington Market and maybe see like Mark Almond in a shop, you know. It's the dream. It was, it felt like it. Yeah. suddenly realize that there's a different filter on London suddenly where it's this sort of you know if you get into music like really into music where you actually recognize you know the drummer from the exploited or something there's just a wealth of kind of excitement suddenly because they're all there yeah you know were you reading lots of magazines like Smash Hits and Flexipop and things like that. Yeah, all of them, I think, in the 80s, if you were a pop fan. Like more so now, I think, because I think there was quite a blur between what was underground and what was chart.

Particularly around the early 80s, I think, where you get Depeche Mode and Japan and Duran Duran I know they're this sort of really chart pop music that girls get into particularly I think it was pitched at girls a lot of that pretty boy stuff the neuromantic stuff yeah but I do think that a band like the Thompson Twins you know when they became a three-piece they were really massively marketed at that world but prior to that they were a bit of a kind of hippie sort of collective they were like a sort of anarcho-syndicalist seven-piece from a squat exactly i thought they were great i loved we are detective i the first time i heard that i just thought well this is obviously the best thing that i've ever heard how was it that you came into the orbit of the mighty thompson twins well that kind of saturday circuit that we used to do as school girls of kings road kenny market possibly covent

garden notting hill portobello you know that was our entire saturday you know this is pre-drinking or anything we would just sort of although we did drink but a lot of it was to see famous people and basically me and Emma were going past Flip and Emma was like oh my god I think Tom Bailey's in Flip so we waited outside and he came out and we got his autograph and he was really sweet and really chatty and said oh you know blah blah blah yeah we're going in a new direction and because when's your next record coming out and all that and he said yeah I'm actually mixing it in um Rack Studios tomorrow when he walked off Emma was like oh my god that is literally two minutes from my house

and so we spent Sunday thinking all right fuck it let go. And we did buy a bottle of cider because we needed some Dunkirk spirit. And we must have been outside that studio for about five hours, right? Like mucking about, making stupid jokes, occasionally seeing Tom Bailey walk past an upstairs window. And I think we were throwing like pebbles at soundproof windows right okay whatever and just driving ourself into hysteria almost of giggling stupidity and suddenly we saw him actually coming down I think there were windows along the sort of stairwell and he was coming downstairs and we kind of ducked into the basement and he

came out he kind of went do you want to come in and we were like and so basically we yeah we ended up sitting there while they were mixing oh my god love on your side love love love on your side this is quick step and sidekick wow and we were there for about another sort of two three hours i bought you sentimental roses and you gave them all away oh my god that's incredible and what were they was alana there was joe leeway there no it was just him and they were was mixing it. Oh, they were just mixing it. Right, right, right. Yes, who is probably someone really famous that I can't remember.

Yes. Was it Phil Thornley or something? Like, I can't remember who mixed. Let's look it up. Quick Step and Sidekick. God, I loved that record. What was your favourite track on Quick Step and Sidekick? Fuck.

Do you know what? I can't even remember. Isn't that terrible? Don't be like that. It's awful, isn't it? What about All Fall Out? This is where we all fall out. Wow.

I always, I always dream, dream and rap fucking hell mate you really know that album don't you dream and rap i loved it kamikaze that was a good one that was an instrumental okay i'm looking up who produced it a Alex Sadkin. Oh, okay. Maybe it was for like a 12-inch mix or something. There was a lot of very overextended 12-inch mixes. Yeah, maybe that's what it was. Yeah. Because he was on his own and clearly the whole track was there.

So it was just, you know, tweaking whatever. Yes, Rap Boy Rap was the original 12-inch version of Love On Your Side. I bet it was that. Okay. Rap Boy Rap. That's amazing. How exciting. And good for you, Tom Bailey, for being nice to your young fans and not being a creep, right?

Not being a creep at all. No, not being a creep at all. So actually, we kept bumping into him. And I would be out at lunchtime sometimes and he'd see him walk past. And it was incredibly cool for me to be able to kind of go, oh, hey, I think I see Tom, you know, if I was with some friends, you know. And then they'd give us loads of free records from Arista or whatever. We weren't friends. It was just, you know, me being a total fangirl. But he was very sweet and sent postcards.

And he, that was it. When he went on tour in America, I think I somehow put him in touch with my mum and she ended up taking them all to like Malibu for a day and hanging out with them, which I was incredibly jealous about. They were good. They do a revival. Let's revive the Thompson twins.

I saw him leaning on a newspaper stand there's something odd about his gloved left hand saw him again and by inside an old cafe he makes me scared i wish he'd go away oh away and cafe that's a great rhyme shit so there you are ground zero of all the greatest music created in the 80s and you are beginning to make your own music at that point oh when would we have started making music because lush formed 1987 right towards the end of your teens maybe 80 maybe 88 okay god i'm trying to sort of think there's a jump there because we were going to gigs together and london being london what's so incredible is once your eyes are open to this whole other world kensington market all of that

sort of stuff and then going to gigs like hammersmith od and hammersmith palais and then realizing that oh my god there's all these other places there's the Marquis and there's the Moonlight and there's the you know suddenly Hammersmith becomes like a real place to go to would never go to Hammersmith in my fucking life but there was about five venues there so suddenly half your week is spent there and yeah what was the smaller venue in Hammersmith well there was the Clubfoot and then the Clarendon was under it. And there was, oh, there was another pub that was further up kind of the road. Because there was the Odeon and the Palais.

Oh, yeah, I was thinking of the Palais. That's where, that's my first gig. I went to see Prefab Sprout there. Oh, okay. And they were doing the tour for Steve Mc mcqueen so this is what i mean so i think that there's you know your map at that point is like the palais and the whatever but as you kind of like we'd see a support band and then we'd see the support band we're playing and then we'd see that support band's band right okay so you end up at hope and anchor or whatever yeah and i remember

hearing about the hope and Anchor because of madness. And suddenly you think, well, let's go there and see what's happening. And so little pubs and clubs suddenly. And then you realise there's loads of them, all the student gigs, King's College and Thames Poly and Uxbridge Uni, all of that, you know. Who did you see?

Who were some of the people that you saw early on before they exploded? I mean, probably my biggest boasters at Smith's. I saw them at the, where did I see? Oh, we saw them at Dingwalls. And it's really funny because there's actually a YouTube bootleg, just audio of that gig. And what I remember is that we were both, me and Emma were both pressed down the front and they went off and we were all screaming for an encore. Me and Emma were going,

handsome devil, play handsome devil. And Morrissey came back on. I don't know, he did some spiel and then he said, we're going to play a song. And then he put the mic in front of Emma and she went, handsome devil. And then he put the mic in front of me and I went, handsome devil. And then they he put the mic in front of me and I went, Handsome Devil!

And then they launched into Handsome Devil. And that clip is still there. No way! Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's right, it's at the end section of some bootleg. What's the gig? It was at Dingwalls, probably. Camden Dingwalls, 30th of August, 1983.

That might, but yes, because we would have been 16. Yeah. Full show. It says Handsome Devil number one. Did they do a... Oh, Handsome Devil number two. Oh, that might be it then. Maybe you did the encore.

We are on the fountain! We are on the fountain! Hey, that's you wow isn't youtube amazing sometimes camden dingwalls london england 30th of August 1983 You and Emma Me and Emma I took a trip down the river of time I took a trip

took a trip down the river of time I packed some things for my trip down the river of time I packed some things for my trip down the river of time I packed some things for my trip down the river of time I took a camping chair and a fancy camera so I could sit and take pictures from my chair

of the river of time, of the river of time time, time, time, time I also made sure I had my laptop there so I could use my photo manipulation software and tweak the river of time time, time time time time time oh the river of time to be new the river of time it's long and covered in slime Your experience of being in a successful band fell more or less squarely in the 90s.

I mean, you got signed to 4AD, no less, at the end of the 80s. And you talk in your book about how exciting that was to be on the same label as throwing muses and pixies and people like that you know we sort of signed to 4ad in a weird way i mean i think i approached the band a bit like my bar was very low credit to emma she was always the one who had the kind of vision and the ambition you know when 4AD were going to come down and see us play I just thought well that's not going to happen is it so I was very surprised when they decided they were going to sign us but I think even that was quite tentative because Howard Goff who ended up managing us actually but he was the plugger at 4AD and he basically said to Ivo you can't sign this band they're the worst band I've ever seen in my life so because 4AD was kind of a team you know it's an indie label and they they

had like a real family vibe there so everybody had to kind of be into it if they were going to sign a band okay so that's why we made Scar which was really just demos yeah I think Ivo sort of trying to prove that we could do it we could sound good if we were given a little bit of guidance and what have you but then they just put that out as a mini album right and and then we did the mad love stuff with robin so there's lots of little eps and then we did sweet robin guthrie this is from yeah cocktoeins yes that was very exciting so I was really nervous about well you can imagine he works with fucking Liz Fraser for Christ's sake she was a hero well she was a hero and also she's like has an incredible voice and of course me sort of

mewling away when I'd been lead singer for all of what six months reluctantly again really you'd only been together for that amount of time before you got signed well no we'd been together for longer but originally we had meriel barham oh yeah singing so we kind of formed within 10 minutes and was suddenly rehearsing and writing songs and it was all very very quick but meriel left and when Meriel left we already had gigs booked and why did she leave well I feel bad I did put this in the book but I think first of all I don't think she ever felt comfortable being the singer and not playing guitar so just being the singer right being a Being a front person in an exposed way. I think she also got a boyfriend suddenly. You know, it really cut her off. It was, you know, proper love.

And I went to stay with her recently and she was sort of saying, you know, that was my first proper relationship. So I think she really vanished into this relationship, which made it very tricky because when you're rehearsing and stuff, she would sort of be like, oh, oh, well, I'm not going to be able to cut. I'm going to have to leave an hour early because, you know, we're going to like the pictures or something. And you're thinking, but this is our band. You know, what do you mean? Nothing takes precedence over this. You know, loud relationships. Come on. takes precedence over this. Yeah, they're not allowed relationships. Come on.

What were your relationships like in those days? Were you someone who was, yeah, chaotic? You had a period with Billy Childish. Is that right? Yes. You talk about him fondly in the book. Oh, OK. Good.

That's how it came out. Well, I mean, you you know he sounds like a handful he sounds like an absolute handful but like a sort of straightforward take me as you find me kind of handful rather than a particularly manipulative or are you making some faces that make me think that maybe i shouldn't be talking about Billy Childish. I mean, look, when I think about some of those early relationships, again, you know, you sort of normalise it. But I had a conversation with Maxine not long ago. And she said to me, well, you always pick the bad boys. And I thought, wow, I never thought about it that way. Like I genuinely didn't. And I think that there's probably a kind

of daddy issues thing there you know people who you know I mean like some of my early relationships and Billy Childish is a prize example of that very charismatic can be incredibly good fun to be around but not probably the healthiest relationship. Did you ever meet Tracey Emin and compare notes? Well, no, I met Tracey because basically when we got off with each other, you know, I can't even really call it a relationship. It was so ridiculous and scant. But he was going out with Tracey. I don't think I even realised that they were a couple at the time, but I used to go and see his band a lot. And, you know, Tracey was always there, but. I don't think I even realised that they were a couple at the time. But I used to go and see his band a lot. And you know, Tracy was always there. But I genuinely don't think I knew

that they were a couple. So it wasn't till I got off with him that I kind of discovered this and realised that, oh, right, so I'm the mistress. Okay, let's get the ground rules out the way. But I kind of still thought, I mean know I was only 17 yeah and he was like 25 so I think he had a bit more control really than I did so yeah you know the bad boys I mean that's still an ongoing thing isn't it I don't think it's a particularly great idea no it's not. In 1992, Mickey, you were part of the Lollapalooza. And that is a traveling festival organized by the great Perry Far farrell of jane's addiction and uh lush were part of the kind of main stage lineup right yeah first on on the main stage first on and you are on the same bill as ministry ice cube sound garden the jesus and mary chain pearl jam the red hot chili peppers Ice Cube, Soundgarden, The Jesus and Mary Chain, Pearl Jam, The Red Hot Chili Peppers.

Those are the main stage bands. What was that like? I mean, in the book, that sounds kind of fun, that chapter. Oh, it was incredible. You know, it was like an American stadium tour, but without all that kind of responsibility on our shoulders because we were just first on so it was it was just a huge traveling circus and it was kind of early on yeah so not i think it was only the second dollar palooza so it was kind of still alternative you know before that really became mainstream yeah before the kind of limp biscuit years yeah yeah yeah have you seen that woodstock yeah yeah what was that documentary was it called woodstock 99 i think it was wasn't it yeah and yes when they

were full into that rock rap type music that i never really understood yeah and and also where the crowds were that sort of crowd. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like real jocks. Super bro-y. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

And actually, I think in 1992, first of all, not only were the audiences much more mixed. Yes, you had those kind of jocks or whoever. I mean, probably into the chili peppers and things but you know a lot of the mary chain fans and the fact that you could get all of those bands on one bill they're so different and you didn't get booed off if you were lush or the mary chain or whatever everyone was up for listening to whatever was on and i think also even the organization was there were no kind of vip areas that were there was just backstage and front of stage. That was it. You everything, there was no separation there either. It was just, especially if we had a day off

where we didn't have to take off immediately to get to the next town. You know, everyone would just be in this one hotel and getting pissed in the bar and hanging out. And it was brilliant fun. Who was the nicest? Who was the nicest? There were so many nice people, you know,

all of Pearl, I mean, to to be honest all of them were nice you know some of them I had less to do with some of them were probably a little bit more you know uninterested standoffish maybe yeah Jesus and Mary Chang well funny enough because they were the only other Brits you know we actually mixed quite a lot with them yeah I'm just being silly and gossipy oh well they I mean they're just they were a bit doer I don't know anything about them as people

I'm just going off their image of just being angry and pushing things over well they were a bit angry and pushing things over but not with us I mean they're kind of I think they're quite I don't want to blow their image but they're actually bit angry and pushing things over but not with us they i mean they're kind of i think they're quite i don't want to blow their image but they're actually quite sweet and timid really cube sounds friendly yeah he wasn't really friendly with that but to be honest i don't even think it was unfriendly i just don't think he knew what to make of me yeah he probably the kind of music that lush was making was probably not totally high on his agenda at that point and i also he was very young right i don't think i realized that they're kind of their whole entourage

were really young until we had to i think when we had to go to canada there was this sheet passed around which had every single person on it because we had to all get passport details and they were all printed on them and it was then that i realized fuck me half his crew are like 18 years old they're really young and there were places where they couldn't go in the bar because it was 21 drinking age and I was like so I kind of got that they were a little bit their experience was a little bit different I mean one or two of them were really friendly when did you encounter the butthole surfers though? He sounds like a bit of a handful at geese. Was that on another tour? No, that was the same tour.

So I think Gibby Haynes was coming out because Ministry did this song called Jesus Built My Hot Rod, which he features on. And the thing with the Ministry lot was that Al Jorgensen is, was, I have no idea what he's like now, but he was just almost like a caricature kind of rock and roll. I'm on tour. It's going to be fucking wild, right? It wasn't like a

knuckle dragging Neanderthal, but he was just willing to be crazy at any moment. So I think they had like two buses of people. There were so many of them. Half of these people had like one job, which was to press one button or something. I think he just invited everyone he could. And so Gibby came along for some sort the rest of the band so much worse because he's another person who was just uncontrollably wild. Doing what kind of thing, though? Well, I mean, our sailman, Pete, said he ended up in a hotel room with about five or six people and Gibby and Al. And he said Al was on the phone talking to what he described as a hooker in Hawaii I think and was basically kind of having this filthy conversation while Gibby was smashing every piece of glass in the room the mini bar everything and then kind of rolling around on the floor in all this glass um we've all done that and then i think there was quite a lot of drugs involved probably at which point

pete was like okay i think i'm gonna go to bed now and you know i think he was there for about five minutes and went nope and left you know when you get two people like that together i think they try and almost outdo each other so there was sort of it just the the it got ramped up and up and up and up till i think al set off some industrial firework on the bus as it was pummeling down the highway once and various people had to be treated for burns and yeah yeah, you know, it was a bit mental. But I think, you know, so Gibby's thing was that he could only talk to me. I don't, you know, it was probably part of the act, but it was very crude. Let's just say that.

I think he probably thought he was being wild and exciting. And maybe that's how you instigate a good time he was doing edgy sex bands yeah whereas i just want it to talk about maybe the weather yeah because the problem is when you're talked to like that it i'm i'm not sure that blokes who do that totally realise. But it makes me feel like, oh, so basically, unless there's a hole, like a physical hole that you can stick something into, that's the purpose I'm serving. Otherwise, you just don't want to have a conversation.

Like, you've probably never had this. I mean, maybe you have. Have you ever had like kind of groupie type things? Not that I'm aware of. Or do you just get really boring blokes who just want to talk to you? It's mainly middle-aged guys with beards yes okay i love them no it's all fairly cozy i'm glad to say when someone approaches you with an agenda and i do think this happens to blokes as well with women it's like they won't talk about anything else

right so whatever you say will be you know like oh have a fluffy microphone and they'll go oh yeah it's really sensual uh-huh and oh you know it's uh this is what my fanny used to look like before i shaved it or whatever do you know what i mean i do It's just amazing that people would try that and take themselves seriously. God. Oh, Mr. Truth. Wait, this is an advert for Squarespace. Every time I visit your website, I see

success. Yes, success. The way that you look at the world makes the world want to say yes. It looks very professional. I love browsing your videos and pics, and I don't

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use the offer code BUXTON to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. So put the smile of success on your face with Squarespace. Yes. Continue. Hey, welcome back, podcats. That was Mickey Bereni talking to me there, of course, and I'm very grateful indeed to Mickey for giving up her time to waffle with me. It was really good to meet her. There was so much more that we could have talked about.

In the end, we kind of focused on upbringing and relationship stuff and didn't really talk at all about music. I apologize if you were hoping for more deep level music chat, but I've included a few good more music related links in the description of today's podcast where you will find details of upcoming live dates for Mickey's band, the Mickey Bereni Trio. There's a link to the book, of course. Fingers crossed, How Music Saved Me From Success. Really recommend it. There's a link to that Smith's of course. Fingers crossed. How Music Saved Me From Success. Really recommend it. There's a link to that Smith's gig that we played a tiny clip of in Dingwalls in 1983. Mickey also pops up in a documentary from 2015 called Girl in a Band, Tales from the Rock and Roll Frontline. That's hosted by Kate Mossman excellent music writer

and there's tales about being a woman in the music industry from Mickey and Tina Weymouth of Talking Heads Viv Albertine of The Slits legendary session player Carol Kay Bricks Start Smith of The Fall and many others so some good nuggets there for L lush and music fans in general and thanks very much indeed once again to mickey also in the description today a link to buy tickets

for that live podcast show on the 19th of march next year 2024 i hope you can make it along i think it's going to be a fun night. I won't reveal the identity of my guest just yet, but I can guarantee it's not Nigel Farage. Oh, it's quite cold. I'm actually recording this outro link the day or even two days after I recorded the intro, and it's not such a nice morning now. It's a very cold afternoon, the skies are grey and I am trudging through mud. Bit of free mud foley for you there. Last week I went to Cambridge to the Royal Corn Exchange, where I saw Billy Bragg performing with my old friend Ben Walden. If you listened to the episode of the podcast I did with Billy,

then you will have heard me mention Ben, who was at school with me and Joe and Louis, and was a huge Billy Bragg fan. And at the end of the recording, Billy was kind enough to say, come along to a show so me and Ben took him up on the offer and went to see him in Cambridge it was a great night it's part of the Roaring Forties tour which begins with a screening of a film I guess it's about 45 minutes worth or something like that, of fantastic clips from the early 80s and right the way through Billy's career of appearances on TV shows and interviews and it's

cut together really nicely and there's a lot of very nostalgic stuff there. 01 for London, nostalgic stuff there. 01 for London, hosted by Richard Jobson. I haven't seen that for a while. And then after the film, Billy played a storming set of tunes from throughout his career, and then as an encore, played the whole of Life's a Riot with Spy vs. Spy.

It was a great show. And for me, it was lovely to see my friend Ben again. I hadn't seen him for a few years and it was good to catch up. And coincidentally, that same day, I downloaded an audio book called Why Is This Lying Bastard Lying to Me by Rob Burley. It was recommended to me by a friend rob burley is a seasoned producer and editor of political interview programs he's worked with people like jonathan dimbleby and jeremy paxman andrew neill emily mateless and andrew maher the book tells the story of various moments of political significance by focusing on a lot of memorable TV interviews. But the whole book is a kind of love letter

to the art of the political TV interview and a reminder of how difficult it's become to get a good interview out of a politician these days. And I use the word coincidentally about downloading the book the same day that I saw my friend Ben because a good chunk of the early part of the book is devoted to a legendary confrontation that exemplifies how much things have changed in the political interview world

between Margaret Thatcher and master political interviewer and my friend Ben's dad, Brian Walden. Yeah, that's a bit of Nantucket's Sleigh Ride by Mountain, which, if you're the same sort of age that I am, you might remember as the theme to Brian Walden's show Weekend World. For me that music was always a signal that it was time to turn the TV off because there was no more cartoons on on a Sunday or whenever it was when I was little. But I did love the music. I would only turn off the show when the music had finished and for years I didn't know what the music was. I assumed it was a bit of music that had been specially composed for the show. Only in the YouTube age was I finally able to track it down. I suppose I could have asked Ben, now that I come to think of it. But maybe he didn't know.

Anyway, the theme music for Brian Walden's next show, after Weekend World, was not nearly so good. It was more like Antiques Roadshow. So, not being heavily into politics as a teenager, I didn't watch it too often. I never watched it. And that's why I was only dimly aware of the confrontation that took place between Brian Walden and Margaret Thatcher in October 1989, following the resignation of her Chancellor, Nigel Lawson. And Rob Burley's book, Why Is This Lying Bastard Lying To Me, focuses on that confrontation towards the beginning of the book.

And he writes about it brilliantly, explains why it was so significant politically, what it meant for the close relationship that had built up between Brian Walden, who himself was an ex-Labour MP at one point, but then became a huge Thatcher fan and had always been a very sympathetic interviewer when she appeared on Weekend World, to the point that people had started to accuse Walden of just going too easy on her in general, especially towards the end of her premiership.

And as Rob Burley explains it, that's why in October of 1989, Brian Walden went on the offensive with Thatcher. And in the end, for a lot of people watching, it was a pivotal clash which crystallised people's view of Thatcher as this person who was unable to admit when she was wrong. A year later she was no longer Prime Minister and following that interview she and Brian Walden never spoke again. It's very dramatic. Maybe I can get Ben on the podcast to pretend to be his dad and he could interview Rob Burley one day. I don't know Rob, not sponsored, but just wanted to give you that

recommendation because I have been enjoying the book very much. Okay, that's it for this week. Thanks very much to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his production support and conversation editing on this episode. Cheers, Seamus. Thanks very much to Sarah and Rose at the NSPCC for their advice. Thanks to Helen Green. She does the artwork for the podcast. Thanks to all at ACAST for their continued support and help with the sponsors who keep the show on the road. But thanks especially to you.

Now look, it's cold, so come here and let's have a hug. Let's get back and have a cup of tea. And until next time, we share the same aural sphere. Please go carefully. And for what it's worth, I love you. Bye! Bye. I'm out. ស្រូវានប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប� Thank you.