THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.242 - RICHARD AYOADE

Episode Date: April 11, 2025

Adam talks with British writer, director, actor and comedian Richard Ayoade about David Lynch, whether it was easy inventing the compete works of the fictional director and playwright Harauld Hughes, what Richard thought of David Letterman's enthusiasm for him and his work, the weirdness of interviews, the art of putting yourself down, why Orson Welles hated Woody Allen, and why Mick Jones of The Clash made Richard cry.Conversation recorded face-to-face in London on March 19th, 2025Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production support and conversation editing.Podcast illustration by Helen GreenPRE-ORDER 'I LOVE YOU, BYEEE' by Adam Buxton - 2025NORD VPNEXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee!HARAULD HUGHES BOOKS by Richard Ayode (Faber website)PICS, VIDEOS AND RELATED LINKS (on Adam's website) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human folk Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan Hey, how you doing, podcats? It's Adam Buxton here.

You may be able to hear that I'm not where I normally would be, on my Norfolk farm track. But instead I'm sitting on a bench in Victoria Park, East London. It's a beautiful morning towards the end of the first third of April, 2025. Trumple stilts, gin tariff times. And I'm here for a few days because I've been recording my audio book

in an actual studio with humans, which is nice, a nice change for me. I did the first book, Ramble Book, in my nutty room in Norfolk during the lockdown in 2020, and this time I was given the opportunity to record it in a studio. I thought, yeah, that would be good. So anyway, I thought I'd take this opportunity to get some fresh air before I head into the studio and record my intro and outro so I could get the podcast up for the weekend. Looking out at people heading to work, going to school. A lot of joggers. So many joggers!

Do they identify as joggers anymore? They're runners, really, aren't they? Very impressive. I'm a few meters back from the main tarmac paths. I found myself a semi secluded spot. Looks like a party spot. A lot of ciggy butts, empty cans, pear cider, empty bottle of spritzy aperitivo blood orange flavor. There's a can of original nourishment there, vanilla flavor, if anyone wants this, there's still some left. There's also a blue surgical glove.

There may have been some procedures going on once the anesthetic had been taken on this bench. That's a nice thought. Anyway, look, let me tell you about podcast number 242. This one features some deep pan waffle with returning friend of the podcast, British writer, director, actor and comedian, Richard Ayuwadi. Now, of course, the other day I was talking to David Letterman, Dave, I call him, about Richard and I was saying that he has many modes. There's actor-comedian mode on display in TV comedies like Garth

Marenghi's Dark Place, The Mighty Boosh, Nathan Barley and The IT Crowd. There's presenter and panel show mode in which Richard has hosted shows like Gadget Man, Travelman, The Crystal Maze, and appeared on comedy panel shows including, most recently, Amazon's panel slash game show series Last One Laughing, hosted by Jimmy Carr, in which Richard was one of the comedians alongside Bob Mortimer, Judy Love, Daisy Mae Cooper, Lou Sanders, Joe Wilkinson, and others, trying not to laugh at each other's antics. That show's been a big hit. Richard is also a director who cut his teeth on Dark Place back in the day and then helmed

a number of music videos, also a concert film for the Arctic Monkeys, and two features so far. There was 2010's Submarine, starring Craig Roberts, Yasmin Page, Sally Hawkins, Noah Taylor and Paddy Considine, and 2013's The Double starring Jesse Eisenberg and Mia Wasikowska. I think I'm pronouncing that right. I looked it up and that's what I got. Richard has also appeared in front of the camera in films including director Joanna Hogg's The Souvenir, parts 1 and 2, where he played a pretentious director. And he also popped up in Wes Anderson's Oscar-winning

The Wonderful Story of Henry Sugar. This year Richard appears in another Wes Anderson film, the comedy espionage thriller The Phoenician Scheme, due to be released on the 23rd of May in the UK. And that film boasts a typically starry cast including Bill Murray, Scarlett Johansson, Benediccio del Toro, Tom Hanks and Michael Serra. And then you've got Richard's writer mode. Last year, 2024, saw the publication of Richard's fifth book, The Unfinished Harold Hughes, in which he investigates the legacy of a mysterious writer, actor and director who was in some ways remarkably similar to Richard himself.

Last year also saw the publication of Richard's sixth, seventh and eighth books, collections of the plays, poems and screenplays of Harold Hughes. And in case anyone thought he was being a bit lazy, his second book for children, The Fairy Tale Fan Club, was also published last year. For my conversation with Richard, he was in what I would call relaxed, thoughtful chat mode. We spoke face to face in London in March of this year, 2025, and there was a lot of film chat, as well as some deep-waffling about the relationship between fans and their artistic heroes. Whether it was easy writing four books about a made-up guy, what Richard thought of David Letterman's enthusiasm for him

and his work, the weirdness of doing interviews, or recording podcasts for that matter, the art of putting yourself down, why Orson Welles hated Woody Allen, and why Mick Jones of The Clash makes Richard cry. But we began by talking about the late David Lynch. And by the way, the name of the co-writer of Straight Story, whose name I blanked on, was Mary Sweeney. She wrote the screenplay with John E E Roach and was the editor of many of David Lynch's films. I'll be back at the end for a bit more waffle but right now with Richard Iowadi. Here we go. Focus first on this, then concentrate on that Come on, let's chew the fat and have a ramble chat Put on your conversation coat and light your talking hat

Yes, yes, yes La la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la The film is the talking, the film is the thing. So you go see the film, that's the thing. It's a whole thing and it's there and that is it. Did you like David Lynch? Oh yeah. I rewatched nearly everything he did before. After he died? No, before, just before, only because, not for great reasons, but Michael Cera

is in this Wes Anderson film and I knew he was in the new Twin Peaks. And so I thought, oh yeah, I had put off watching it. Partly because the first time I watched Twin Peaks it was too frightening and I just thought I need to build and recovery fright time for watching Twin Peaks which means I need to watch in the day which means I'm not working so it's quite a hard thing to justify but I watched that I went oh god he's amazing still amazing and then went

back and watched wild at heart will you pull the microphone closer yes we're here I've never seen Twin Peaks It's good. Why was it frightening? Like is it really to get in your head? Yeah. Yeah way well It's slow in a very confident way and then Within the actual shows certain things happen that are about as frightening a thought as possible to have, I'd say. And there is a character in it called Bob

who is the most terrifying person. And I suppose it's, yeah, it's really had something to do with evil, actual and not just wrong choices evil, but full cosmic throughout eternity, indestructible evil. And that's quite concerning. Yeah. That was the thing about him wasn't it that he did seem to believe in a kind of supernatural version of evil.

Yeah, as distinct from just the terrible things that human beings are capable of. Yes, he doesn't think it's probably soluble by better diet So yeah, it's pretty big and But he also seems to really believe in goodness Yeah, I think is why it's so moving they have these terrible things. I guess I can blue velvet that very moving exchange where Kyle McLaughlin says why they're people like Frank and but there's also this great beauty and goodness and, yeah.

Did you ever meet him? No, no, never met David Lynch, but there are certain figures you just feel close to, don't you? You just, what they do is so impactful and there seems something very truthful about what they do that you have a familiarity. So in a way I have met it. But David Bowie was like that wasn't it? Just everyone felt very connected to that person.

I think Bowie was a more complicated figure though because he had a streak, although this may be just me projecting, of self-loathing, I think. He was so hypercritical and he was so anxious about what people thought of him. And he was at war with himself. Like half the time, he knew that that's not the way an artist should be. An artist shouldn't care about what people think

of what they do. But he did care. And his stated aim right from the start was to be a famous person. and he knew that that was a fairly Superficial goal. Okay, and yet he was this person who was in many ways totally original even though the way he Went about that was to be a magpie to be an appropriator to be all these things that an artist shouldn't really be an authentic Artist shouldn't really be yes. I think there is a problem with the idea of authenticity because, you know, there's nothing new under the sun, I suppose. And also, I was just reading about Francis Bacon.

Apparently, he went to one of the first showings of Jeffrey Bernard is unwell. The play. The play, the Keith Waterhouse play. yes. Right. And Francis Bacon is in the play and comes on in some outfit that he wouldn't wear. And he stood up and shouted in the play when I don't wear anything like this. I wear a Savile Rose suit. And because I think he was dressed in a beret or something, you know, ridiculously on point and stormed out and you'd think of Francis Bacon as uncompromising, brilliant artist. I think he cared a great deal about his reputation. I think often artists do, don't they?

I think most of them do. On some level, if they are in any way connecting with their public, then of course they do yeah, and they're trying to manage how they come across and yes, they're wounded by criticism and They they may show it in different ways, but I don't know anyone who's totally You'd have to be a bit crazy. I think yeah or so not to be affected is. Yeah, kind of zipped up and immune. I mean, David Lynch, his story wasn't that he was extremely negative and angry. It was kind of the clown suit of anger, he called it, until he started transcendental meditation.

And that was his kind of origin story of suddenly bliss and going inwards and all of those things. But it'd be surprising if those things utterly left him. I mean he wouldn't Be human but also I think if we give this another hour, we'll get to the bottom of his personality and we can actually submit a diagnosis That's the amazing thing you really kind of speculate about people you go. What what do I know about David Lynch? Yeah, but I mean it's fun. Yeah, it's fun and also in a way you're I don't know I always feel like you're just talking about what people are like in general aren't you and maybe What you're like a little bit and I mean that in the general sense and also you Richard I want me

Oh, well here's can I ask you this? Yes. Here's something I'm interested in. Say you really like David Bowie, or did you ever have moments where you went, I'm out? He's done something, I don't like it, I've lost interest. Or did you feel, okay, he's done 10 great albums in a row, I'm gonna stick with him or whatever. Because I was thinking, like like I love Billy Wilder But I haven't seen his last three or four films and I go why I

In some way trust the sort of critical massive judgment saying it wasn't really that good in the 70s over the person who for 20 years has consistently who for 20 years has consistently dazzled me. For some reason, and I wonder whether I'm just frightened, I don't want to be disappointed in what he does later, but that seems ridiculous. Why don't I just watch these things? Because he's capable of doing stuff that's not so good, and why waste your time?

But why not trust someone who has, in terms of that knowing someone and really liking what they do, I also feel the flip side of it is this really harsh relationship whereby it's like, and not only do I love you, you'd better not ever disappoint me. Ever.

And not even in the smallest way, because I've trusted you. You don't know that because I've never met you, but I have trusted you. And so I'm not going to watch Buddy Buddy, because it might not be as good as the apartment. But it probably is full of really interesting great things. And why not? Yeah. Anyway, do you have that? Yeah, I know exactly where you're coming from. And I know, because we've spoken about it before, that I'm like you in general, like once I'm on board, I'm fine. Yeah, with Bowie, he

did lots of stuff that was quite crap. And so in a way, growing up as a Bowie fan in the eighties the tone of your appreciation was like I was getting into all the amazing stuff he did in the seventies but at the same time I was being confronted by this silly stuff from the eighties the Jareth years. Okay and. Then you know and then the tin machine stuff which i couldn't even enjoy like at least in the mid eighties yeah never let me down is even bits of never let me down to absolute beginners absolute beginners is straight very good yeah labyrinth. This i mean i don't like a lot of songs in lab i mean i i think i like all of the songs in our after say i just you know I'm really signed up yeah and maybe yeah maybe it's trying not to have such a worshipful relationship so that it's okay if it's not exactly what you wanted yes I tried to write about this in in the book that I've just done and in the end just as it was being signed off like just sort of going through the proof, whatever it's called, the copy edited version.

And I got to the chapter about Bowie's new album Outside, which he had done with Brian Eno. And it was 15 years since they'd worked together on the Berlin trilogy, Lo, Heroes, Lodger, three of my favorite Bowie albums in the late 70s. So it was very exciting as a Bowie fan, like, oh my God, he's back together with Eno. Eno's not going to let him be shit. This is going be great. And yet, when we heard outside, it was so not what I wanted. And I wrote about all this. And then I sort of went back and revisited the album. Yeah, after he died, because it's an album that people really love, like the Bowie fans say, Oh, outside, it's, it's terrific. wasn't well received at the time but actually there's so much good stuff on there and you know himself says you know that was one that I really felt fell through the cracks a little bit and I was like yeah fell through my crack yeah but then I thought be the title of your

book and then I thought well I should go back back and revisit it because I bet there's some good stuff on there. I bet it's like one of your missing Billy Wilder films. It's Bowie. I love Bowie and I love Eno. And sure enough, there is good stuff on there. Yeah, but I still don't like it. There's some really like he does these the talking bit characters.

Yeah. It was the first time he'd done characters since the late 70s early 80s But anyway, ultimately I removed the chapter from the book Well, I just thought it's too deep level. I'll put it on the audio book as a bonus Oh, that's good. Yes a deep Bowie dive. Yeah. Yeah at the end of the audio, but I think you get the missing Bowie chapter Did you ever meet David Lynch? No tantalizingly. I have friends who know people and who were in his orbit. Yeah like Blanking on her name, but she wrote straight story. Oh

Him. Yeah, that's a great film straight story. Oh, yeah. I watched it again the other day really good and it's so moving and yeah Harry Dean Stanton is pretty good in it one scene at the end of the movie as this guy's brother the whole film if you haven't seen it listeners is about what's based on a true story right yeah about an old guy who has fallen out with his brother, and then he hears, like years ago, he's fallen out with his brother. Then he hears his brother is very ill, and he travels cross-country, hundreds of miles, on a tractor mower.

Yeah. He's too old to drive a car. So there's like a loophole, which means that he's OK to drive his tractor mower. So he drives himself cross country to see his brother almost because there's some element to the hardship being part of the journey. Yeah. And almost somehow keeping him alive until he arrives, it feels.

Right. But yeah, very beautiful. And explain the Harry Dean Stanton bit. I just remember Harry Dean Stanton's face coming out when he comes out of a house and he's sort of just fresh. He's just got that great long equine face, doesn't move. It's sort of Western. It's like an old Western face, but also somehow punk as well. He could be in the clash, Harry Dean Stanton, or he could be in a John Ford film. I don't think I've seen it for 15 years.

I can't remember the scene. I just remember their two faces. That's about it. And just there's something very moving about the reconciliation. Wanting to reconcile all of that is incredibly powerful. It's the climax of the movie and Harry Dean Stanton plays this guy's brother and the actor playing the protagonist was Richard Farnsworth. And yeah, there's just one scene that must have only taken an afternoon to shoot, I suppose. But it's amazing and it's all it as you say all about Harry Dean Stanton's face and his roomie eyes

Yeah, and the emotion in his eyes when he sees his brother and realizes how far he's come for him It's pretty good. He's good at loss Harry Dean Stanton. Yeah in Paris, Texas Here's the lost guy. That's the thing about movies I heard you talking about what it is about film that you like and you mentioned things like the way that you can have these crazy juxtapositions you talked about the 2001 with the bone flying in the air suddenly being replaced by the space station and things like that. And I love all those things too,

but yeah, when I think about what I love about films, it's generally those Harry Dean Stanton moments, something in the face. Yeah, the reaction shot and being able to somehow be very close to someone while they think and through an accumulation of knowledge about where that person is you can feel you're experiencing the thought and witnessing the thought at the same time it's almost yeah it makes you a kind of supernatural entity at that moment that you're able to

understand things that you just couldn't ordinarily or feel you can feel things yeah amazing faces what is it about is it about actors oh how do they do it Richard how does Anthony Hopkins is like that for me, like he's something about the intelligence in his face, the emotional intelligence. Yeah. I've only directed two films, but it is amazing when you see actors in somehow manage to inhabit what began as some writing some text and they are able to make it feel like they have thought of it,

and it's just emanating from their face. I just, it's unbelievable to me. As someone singularly incapable of doing it myself, I just, you know, look like I'm in a cool waiting to speak and in some kind of freeze mode. But say to take an example that springs immediately to mind, Jesse Eisenberg, cool waiting to speak and in some kind of freeze mode but Say to take an example that springs immediately to my Jesse Eisenberg I directed him in something where he had to play two characters and he just through a series of internal adjustments could Look entirely different, but no makeup. No different costuming

Just different aspect different. Yeah, just different aspect, different, yeah, was a different person. I suppose that's what acting's meant to be in some way, but yeah, it's extraordinary when you see it. It seems to be sometimes though that really good actors in real life, I don't know about Jesse Eisenberg, you can tell me what he's like maybe in real life,

but often they are almost necessarily kind of ciphers in real life. Yeah. You know, De Niro was famously someone who was possibly not electrically interesting in real life. Yeah. And yet on camera is able to channel all this deep feeling. Yes.

And I think there's so many things like in terms of physiognomy that suit an actor. So say Dineer on a chat, I mean, he talked about saying a sporing sentence, get a little this one. Okay. So I think on a talk show, all the lenses are far away. So you're on some long long lens it flattens you out if you think of those kind of great De Niro reactions it's the cameras are moving in it's a Scorsese film so it's generally moving in on a wide lens and he has a really what seems like an impassive face but it's making these small micro adjustments which I think in a wide lens with a sensitive camera it's making these small micro adjustments, which I think in a wide lens

with a sensitive camera is incredible. But way back with no real good thought to think of other than how do I promote this film on some long lens? It just looks kind of like nothing's happening. So I wonder, yeah, I think it's the same sensitivity that makes him seem so subtle in a film that on a chat show looks like not enough. I suppose the thing you need to do if you have Robert De Niro on your chat show on Graham Norton, for example.

Yes. Is to have Tom Hiddleston nearby to do an impression of him to his face. That was a moment of some discomfort. I can't get beyond it. I mentioned it so often on this podcast. It's a tricky one. Isn't it?

Because the impression has a, has merit. Let that be said, there's a lot to say about it, but as to what Robert De Niro should be doing during it, I feel that question hadn't been properly investigated. He handled it quite well. Yeah, I think he did it well. Yeah, he didn't shoot him in the chest. He didn't. Yep, he could he could have done a lot there.

Back to Graham Norton, though. Yes. I saw you there with Colin Farrell. Colin Farrell. Acting. Yes. You did a piece from Harold Hughes. Yes. Back to Graham Norton though, I saw you there with Colin Farrell. Colin Farrell. Acting? Yes. You did a piece from Harold Hughes. Yes.

It was the same piece called The Breakdown which we did with your live show with Lydia, my wife and sorry that's your line isn't it? But Lydia is my wife and and and Bennett's brand with his calls and very kindly read this poem about someone who's had a breakdown and Colin Farrell subbed in for them on the Graham Norton show he was very kind to do it and did you prep it in the green room or was it days before the interview there was very little preparation I think just sent it to him the day before maybe he saw it just before but he's very humane and kind and as charming and you know delightful as you'd imagine he's a beautiful man his

handsome man oh my it's like looking in a mirror for me yeah well I think you're a beautiful man I am not enough people talk about the sheer physical impact. I make in a room It's it's it's too little discussed. You always look good So you are performing Harold Hughes on the Graham Norton show. Yes slightly surreal experience That must have been a strange moment. The whole project is quite odd because it's I suppose It's a written project, but you know, it's a book and that a group of books, unhelpfully enough. But the idea is that I can sound like him within the conceit of the book, which is about this sort of Royal

Court 1950s 60s playwrights. And that I once saw an old volume of his in a second-hand bookshop and became obsessed with him and decided to find out about him and why he'd disappeared from this refurbishment. So it's not like a, you know, I guess a comedy character which you would perform and work up and continues. Harold Hughes is dead, all the writing's done. And so it's, yeah, just talking about him.

But I like that tone of veneration people have. As soon as anyone dies, oh, he was very good, wasn't he? Because he's over and I can't feel threatened in any way anymore. So yeah, the whole conceit of it was, can you create a character's entire creative life and output in one go and release it and just the sheer monstrous hubris of that and presenting it as a very

important find the reissue culture you know we met before we did the show at the Palladium yes this time last time last year, exactly one year ago. Was it? Yeah. Good night. And we talked about how were we going to talk about Harold Hughes. And I should have detected a warning in that because I think you were very kindly, and I very often don't listen, and this could well be one of those moments, I think you were gently saying, maybe you really need to try and lay this out for this to be even moderately enjoyable for an audience.

Well, I was saying, if it was me, I would be confused. Yes. Because- And it was you. It was. And you were being you. That's true. Well, yeah, but I didn't know I would

hope that the audience generally is more intelligent than I am. Well, the audience is always more intelligent than everyone. Sure. That's the danger of the audience. But I just thought, to what extent do we need to lay out what you're doing here? Because it feels real. And the way you talk about it is real so it's like well is this a real guy is this someone I've just never heard of because it kind of intersects with people's insecurity about their own ignorance yes I did feel because yes so I think yeah I decided in my infinite lack of wisdom to talk about how to use just like how to choose existed.

Maybe just to see what that would be like through your kind indulgence. But I did get the sense of a kind of awful liberal guilt, not that the guilt was awful, but I felt awful inflicting it where people get, I don't think I've heard of this person. Does this make me bad? That I don't care enough to it so I that discomfort wasn't that enjoyable to be a part of or to in fact be the cause of but but yeah it never felt like it should be a prank or one of those things where it's like haha

look you fell for it and there is no person such as Harold Hughes. But more just that sometimes it can be singularly dreadful to have to talk about anything that's meant to be funny seriously in any way. And maybe it's just an attempt to avoid having to talk about, yeah, the David Lynch thing, the film is the talking. And in an ideal world, someone would read one of the books

and enjoy it and hopefully it's clear, but the bit where you say, so it's about a writer and here's a playwright and the idea is that he stopped writing and I have to find out why he stopped writing. All of those things, even now when I'm saying them, they're making me slightly stressed. And I can imagine someone listening to it,

just like, oh, stop talking to me. I don't want to, I've just got a day to get on with. Right now, explain to us where we're at with Harold. Well, the way this book is going to exist is that there's a biography of Harold Hughes, who I look like, I look a lot like Harold Hughes. But also also what's exciting is that his work is going to be published again for the first time. And

as well as the playwright and a screenplay writer, he was also a poet. And he's written some pretty powerful pieces. And very fortunately we have two actors here to read one of his poems, Lavinia Loverlock and also Barnaby Rusk. And I wonder whether they might be able to join us for a performance of one of his poems, which is called The Breakdown. Is it a clapping situation or is that not really? You know, I think you can clap, for sure. That would be wonderful. for sure. That would be wonderful. Thank you very much to both of you for reading the poem and they're actually doing a tour at the moment of some of Harold

Hughes' key works. Often the audiences for his work are in the double figures and so this will be interesting I have broken down. Where did the event take place? It took place near my home. How far from your home were you when the event took place? I don't know how to get to my home. Was the breakdown sudden or were there warnings? No one warned me. Are you with anyone? Or are you on your own? I am on my own.

Was anyone else involved? No one else is involved. We are quite busy. Are you okay to wait? I have time but I'm not okay. Are you insured? I am not insured. And what kind of car is your car? I'm not in a car. Perhaps it is better to stay in the car. I do not have a car. You do realize that this is the AA. I know who you are. We help people who have broken down.

I have broken down. People who have broken down in their cars. And what about those who haven't? And that was Barnaby... Yes, that was Barnaby Rusk and Lavinia Lovelock. Lavinia Lovelock. So, thank you very much. Well done. It's very moving to be reminded about how powerful his work is and in many ways he was

a mental health pioneer. Is that in the book then or is that... Do you have to buy one of the separate books that has his poems? That's in a separate book. That's in the book, Pieces Plays Poems. Harold Hughes. Yes. Thank you so much. No, thank you. I'm gonna be a good boy, I'm gonna be a good boy Did you hear me trying to describe Harold Hughes to David Letterman?

Well yes, you sent a clip to me of you talking to David Letterman and I was so more, well, is very kind, obviously I'm going to have to change this to be my ringtone so that whenever I feel bad, I can somehow listen to this. But I cannot understand why David Lesserman has, he just seems very kind and I just don't feel in any way meriting of his interest, very grateful for for it but if I think of him, do you know when Future Islands was on David Letterman? Yeah.

And his reaction after Future Islands is the exact perfect reaction. If you watch that whole thing and it was the first time, the kind of strange tension that you're held in, mesmerized tension of wow, this is kind of amazing. This is also quite a bit. It's a lot of stuff here. And I think he says something like, that's all you need some it's some perfect expression of the impact of it. What was it about that performance? It was just it was

like parties like Richard the third so this is an American indie band kind of electronic rock yeah the songs really good it's very emotional very emotional and the guy the lead singer literally beats his chest yes and he is incredibly limber or at least he was actually no I saw them fairly. They were they were playing at latitude Yeah, and he really moves around the front man. He said of almost James Brown levels of limber Dance movery, but there's also a kind of theater blacks element to it. Yeah, and the band is very still Slightly glacial then he seems almost it's not that he's not in the band, but certainly they're doing different things.

And so there's a kind of a tension in, this is, he's certainly committing to whatever is occurring and he's decided to use the stage. And it's not that it's funny, but if it weren't as good as it was, it could possibly. Yeah, it's right on the edge. Yeah. And also there's unexpected things

that his voice does as well. Yes. So he will be kind of singing in a fairly normal way and then suddenly go down like this in a weird unexpected Cookie Monster way. Yes and the loss of eye contact, a lot of challenging eye contact I'd call it and pauses in between the lyrics where it feels that he's held in the emotion of the last thing he said until a twist but anyway I'll, David Lessman coming in after that is a really joyful

moment where it's expressed. But anyway, you very kindly sent this clip of you and David Lessman talking about me. And I think I was just so not embarrassed because that sounds like you did something that was about but I can't even take it in Yeah, because of all the you know, so you didn't listen to it I I heard it but probably just the rush of blood in my ears. The shame Is probably the main thing I heard just the raw. It was quite a long Sorry to listen to yeah, yes anyway, he but he just

thinks you're great and we were just talking about like who else does four books you published five books last year including your children's book. Yes well it took a while this thing so I wrote a while this thing. So I wrote everything that Harold Hughes wrote in order, basically. So I started writing his plays because for a long time I wanted to do something about a writer or a director, I wasn't quite sure which, who made a lot of stuff and then you'd have a kind of biography about this person. And rather than doing one of those things where you just put an extract from a film in where, so if it's a Western and it just goes, Clint McCluskey walked through the tavern and it would seem obviously made up

just for the purpose of the extract. I thought, oh, I need to know everything that the person's written somehow. And I enjoyed writing these fake plays and things and wanted to do that. And only at the end of the idea of the biography properly occur, because then what he did existed somehow, which was a strange thing to do, I suppose. But were there times when you were writing a play by this guy you'd made up? Yeah. When presumably you hit a wall occasionally like, or did they flow very easily?

Basically, what I'm asking is, were there times when you thought, what am I doing with my life? This is difficult. I'm writing a play by a non existent guy. And I've got several more plays and a couple of films to write and some poetry. And what was it like? Did you not, why, how did you avoid having a total breakdown? Well, I think writing in some ways is a way of avoiding a total breakdown because it's an ordering of thoughts in a way that outside of the time it

takes isn't terribly detrimental on those around you and the world. And I really enjoyed it. There's something about, you know, there's some people who can really write in the third person, and they can have that authorial sense of putting everyone in their place, like Ian Forster, they can have that authorial sense of putting everyone in their place, like Ian Forster. They can use irony about how this person sees themselves and they can position all of the players. And I find that incredible that someone can write,

you know, Room with a View, that seems incredible. To me, effectively writing the first person, which feels like improvising in a character, that doesn't seem tricky to me. I guess, like, say Alan Partridge, the infinite riches of him talking is, I don't know, it doesn't seem like he's going to run out of being able to do that. So there's something, I think, in, yeah, first person writing that goes quite well with comedy maybe. Oh gosh, I'm sorry for that sentence.

So you didn't have moments when you were getting stuck on one of the plays and just going, oh, I'm not really writing the plays. It's it. I'd also, I'd had this idea for about 10 years, so I was kind of ready to go. It sort of built up, but the biography, that was really hard, like the actual story of Harold Hughes and what happened,

that went through many different things. And there was a while when it was going to be like a series of critical studies of Harold Hughes, like a load of essay, it was gonna be even odder initially. But maybe there are seven plays and there are seven films that he wrote. And yeah, it wasn't, it was enjoyable. I liked writing them. What about, did you have moments, again, this is me projecting, yeah, times that I've had when I've just thought, what am I doing? But did you, you know, I definitely thought, what am I doing? I've had when I just thought what am I doing but did you

definitely thought what am I doing I definitely thought what is this isn't adult behavior haha this isn't like if you look at the news the books were published at around the time that well it was the run-up to the American election I think it is in dialogue with that. That's for sure. And I think I think if you read this, I think the election will make sense. Okay, good. One of the things I said to David Letterman, which I don't know if you registered when you listened briefly, was that it's a big ask of the audience. Like, yes, you know,

most people are people okay or me Reading four books a year with my eyes pat on the back for buckles You know me so especially with your eyes exactly because normally you just inject them Well, I do inject them with television or I just shove books through my ears with audiobooks Yeah, so to actually read a book with my eyes, that's a big deal. And so you come out with four of them. You've got the unfinished Harold Hughes, which is about you, Richard Ayoade,

or a version thereof investigating his life and legacy. You've got four films,, collection of his screenplays. You've got plays, prose pieces and poetry. Yeah. And then you've got the models trilogy, the especially wayward girl, the model and the rocker and the swinging models. And those that the four films for the later more supernatural ones like the deadly gust about a haunted wind. But yes, so those are, yeah, London films, the first ones. And then there's these poems. But, you know, the biography of him, they're all quite short, I'd say. And I suppose because of this joke of it being

Harold Hughes is dead, and here's the complete reissue. It seems ludicrously big, but I don't think you have to read all of them or indeed any of them. But they're fun. I've been reading them on the toilet. I think you need to be somewhere where you can evacuate. And that's generally where I do most of my eye reading, to be honest with you.

Okay, I'm going to open to a random page. Hugo steps in, starts clearing away the enormous amounts of food. Do you like cats? Solvay? Solvay. Solvay. See, that's half the problem there. You got jokes in this thing about like one of the jokes is one of the awards that Harold Hughes won Was the Oh your Ripperdies prize for short-form drama? Yeah, and also the Costa coffee award and also the go to go to go to go to yeah

Which like I only realized like a few weeks ago that it was pronounced go to or not goeth Okay. Yeah, so you're asking a lot of a certain audience member, will you read a poem or something like that? I could read one of his poems. Oh, this is very short. This is called Then What. Then what? Lost in ink, blood in mouth, the rug worn through,

you wonder. A lot of his poems seem to be about being drunk on the floor. I think Harold spent a lot of time unable to get up. You've never been a drunk on the floor guy though. No. No, only on the toilet. It's a compulsion that leads you to explore that leading edge of the poem. Yeah, I'm still a curiosity seeker. Looking at the idiosyncrasies of things.

A mountain or a tree is the manifestation of forces that we are not capable of dealing with. I'm very drunk in this. There was a piece that appeared in Esquire in October of last year, 2024, and it was you had written it under the pseudonym Chloe Clifton Wright. Yes. And it was you had written it under the pseudonym Chloe Clifton, right? Yes. And it was ostensibly an interview with you as the author of the Harold Hughes books. And the title of the piece was play for today, question mark, an attritional interview with Richard Iowadi.

And at that point, when I read that headline, I thought it was a real interview. Yes yes and I was thinking Oh Someone has got wound up by Richard. Yeah, and they've written a kind of takedown piece of like Where's this guy coming from? Anyway? Okay. Yeah, and I was like, oh man, that's that's weird. And then I realized oh he's written it himself Yeah, and I mean even as Chloe Clififton right, I was thinking that's pretty harsh. Chloe seems like a bit of a cow. Said okay to call someone a cow. I don't know. And I'm gonna say maybe from the person's point of view, they might not want no, no, even as a fiction. It's not

okay. I apologize to the fictional Chloe Clifton, right? Yeah. One of the things you say in Chloe's voice is whereas Iowada seems little more than an inconsequential collection of borrowed ticks and insincere self-effacement, the playwright to whom he refers was all gravitas, depth and mystery. And of course, I appreciate what you're doing there. Sure. And I appreciate it's in your self-effacing style. But I thought even so, that's pretty harsh to boil yourself down even as a joke to an inconsequential collection of borrowed ticks and insincere self-effacement. Well, in a way, it's quite fun having a go at yourself, uh, fictionally, because really, I suppose when anyone's talking about someone else, they're really talking about their idea

of them rather than what they actually are. And so the narrowing of a lens on someone is always quite funny. You know, when someone really emphasizes one aspect of it, I suppose why all the arguments in spinal tap are some of the funniest things. It's just emphasizing one aspect of someone or one deficiency of them to an extreme level is as revealing of the person doing that

as what they think they're kind of pinning that other person to so I didn't feel uncomfortable saying those things about me. I'm quite happy It's almost can be sort of relieving of a kind of tension in a way, but do you because as someone who has Struggled to a degree with a certain amount of self-loathing or insecurity over the years, sometimes I hear the way you talk about yourself or you put yourself down or you sort of apologize for yourself. And I do think like, what is motivating?

Is it just a joke? Is it just a, to what it just a to what extent are you putting yourself down before someone else does? Yeah, the preemptive strike. I don't know. And I think with writing, it does come from a bit of you that you're not totally aware of, I find. So it's just it occurs. And then you have to decide whether to keep it or not. And then I go, no, I'm quite happy to keep that.

So there's an extent to which I think what I'm like isn't quite my business. And I don't totally know how to put it, probably if you know yourself, you know how bad you are. And that's, I don't think that is wrong. I think there is something really troubling about unreflective positivity, I guess as it's termed toxic positivity these days but I think most people have a good sense of gosh there are some things about me that really needs some

attention. One of the most depressing things I feel is if something feels not real or pulled emotionally in some ways. So I wanted to write something that was like a hit piece, kind of a pastiche of a hit piece. This is the Esquire thing. Yeah, the Esquire thing where someone's just exhausted with someone and they just think they're pretentious. And that just seemed a funny idea to write. Have you ever had one of those written about you for real?

And a hit piece. I don't know or not a hit piece, but maybe a ball encounter with someone who didn't get you always wound up by I think I've Never had a non uncomfortable encounter I Think every encounters uncomfortable encounter. I think every encounter has been uncomfortable. I mean, I did an interview on channel four news with a Christian. Yeah. Oh, we spoke about this. But that was uncomfortable.

But the, the thing before the reason they asked me to do it, I think was I'd done an interview, I can't remember exactly who with or what it was in, but I think the gist of it was, oh, come on, just stop trying to wriggle out of this. Just, you know, what's going on? I think a little bit. And so they said, do you want to do an interview about interviews?

I went, okay. But I think maybe I'm incapable of not going, is this what an interview's meant to be? Like now I go, I'm talking a lot. This isn't our normal conversations. As in we would be both talking. There wouldn't be any assumption that somehow I That what I'm saying is worthy of record that I should be saying more that now it's your turn to say a thing

Yeah, you kind of thought yourself into a hole right you've overthought the encounter. I've maybe I've maybe or Or I thought about it just enough Or or I thought about it just enough the exact right amount thought about it the way everyone else should be why isn't everyone else thinking. This is the same yeah and well there is something slightly ridiculous about being interviewed of course because. What is it have you had therapy have you been in there? Oh, no, I haven't No, I haven't had therapy. I think it it's it seems like a pretty good idea Yeah, well, I'm just wondering to what extent you know as I said before it's like I am coming at this as someone who you know struggles a little bit with self-doubt and

feels a certain amount of pain after certain encounters and sometimes I look at what you say and some of the things you say in interview situations and I feel like, oh, if that was true of me, I would be in real pain. I wonder if he's in real pain. So things I've said in interviews seem like the things that someone in real pain would say. Yeah, like you like, wow, this guy is at war with himself.

Well, yeah, I mean, maybe I think in some ways. Yeah, but I mean, maybe not enough. I mean, maybe I'm just too glib about things. I mean, I don't really understand myself, as in I don't know at all. And I think in some ways, people who write often don't seem to fully understand themselves. Otherwise, they would do other things. Say at school, if you're personable, athletic, well liked and charismatic, you probably want to see how that works out for you rather than going I'm going to become an expert on French New Wave. So I think in some ways, the thing that pushes you into a specific area of interest or a specific medium is the same thing that means you find it quite hard to talk about. Because just, I mean, you know

this from musicians, they're not being difficult, they just don't know how to talk about music. If they could talk about it, they wouldn't do it. I mean, which seems very frustrating because you want to say, how did you do it? But, and it's one of the things I'm really interested in because I love reading interviews and I love finding out about people. But very often they can't express it. And that in itself can be quite enjoyable to realize or to apprehend.

And that it's not being obstreperous or, or yes, the David Lynch thing of the film is the talking. If they could express it in another way, they wouldn't have done that thing. Do you know the conversation between Orson Welles and Henry Jaglam about Woody Allen? Yes, yes. Orson, These were a

series of conversations recorded by a director called Henry Jagglum with Orson Welles, who was then his friend. Yeah. And they would hang out in Los Angeles. And Orson Welles was couple of decades older than Henry Jagglum. Yeah, but they had a close friendship. And they would just chat in a very informal way about everything. Yes. Although there does seem to be something slightly transactional about it because Orson Welles is trying to get funding. Henry Yaglom's more at the start of his career. He's

going, I think I might be able to get some money through. I also have the sense of Orson Welles not showing off exactly, but slightly going, hey, I'm no dinosaur I can I can still mix it I can still be pretty yeah pointed it's like a series of podcasts before podcasts yeah thing yeah there are audio snippets flying around on the internet yeah and then there was a transcription of a lot of these tapes yes that emerged in book form yeah I would recommend but the exchange about Woody Allen you say Yaglem do you is it maybe it's Jaglyn I guess I don't know let's pull the whole thing off waggle waggle on yeah anyway the subject of Woody Allen comes up or some world says I hate Woody Allen physically I

dislike that kind of man Yaglomom says, I never understood why. Have you met him? Oh, yes, says Orson Welles. I can hardly bear to talk to him. He has the Chaplin disease. That particular combination of arrogance and timidity sets my teeth on edge. He's not arrogant. He's shy, says Henry Jaglom. He's arrogant, says Orson Welles.

Like all people with timid personalities, his arrogance is unlimited. Anyone who speaks quietly and shrivels up in company is unbelievably arrogant. He acts shy, his arrogance is unlimited. Anyone who speaks quietly and shrivels up in company is unbelievably arrogant. He acts shy, but he's not. He's scared. He hates himself and he loves himself. A very tense situation. I take your note. I read that and thought about the way that I can be sometimes. Yes. Because, you know, I always just think about myself in

any situation. How does that reflect on me? I think that's a good thing, though, isn't it? I mean, as in, if you hear about something, just go, Yeah, that sums up everyone else, that probably is not a good sign. As in, I think, generally reading about these things is to in some ways go, Oh yeah, am I guilty of this kind of a sin as it were? Yeah, I recognize that, that there can be something arrogant in just not, I don't know, for want of a better way of putting it, just putting your stuff on other people. Just, you might be uncomfortable, but now you're stressing the other person out, and you might feel shy,

but the sense of your anxiety is leaking out everywhere and slightly rancidly poisoning everything. So I do think there's some responsibility, even some responsibility of just, even if it's just a vaguely civic level, just to not absolutely hand-ring overly. It's not something I've managed to stop doing. I have mixed feelings about, you know, as liking a lot of their stuff and both of them have done things. Orson Welles and Woody Allen. Orson Welles and Woody Allen have done things

at Alaskard, and also I think Orson Welles was in this very specific situation where here's someone who's made what is regarded as the best film of all time by many people, unable to get work or to make a film. And so I think there must have been a certain huge frustration at someone who was just making a film a year and had this kind of carte blanche

as Woody Allen would have had at that time. And also I think, what was it? Was it Casino Royale that they were both in? And I think Woody Allen, had he written it or had he rewritten it? And I think it must have felt hugely frustrating for Orton Welles. I mean, his opinion of him not withstanding.

The Chaplin disease, I wonder what that is and whether that's, I don't know. Combination of arrogance and timidity is that something that he feels comes across in the films or or personally that's the thing that I when I read that I wasn't sure right because I think you'd be hard pressed to say that's not quite a good creation the chaplain persona it's not bad maybe the timidity is the is the tramp character in contrast with an arrogance off screen, I don't know.

Yeah, but in a way, isn't that a clown? I mean, a clown is desperate for the audience's love and is those absurd things. I mean, in a way, I think a lot of comedians know how to exaggerate in themselves the things that are ridiculous and uncomfortable and most people rightly try to repress because they're unpleasant. Whereas you know the Marx brothers know what to emphasize and just go yeah you probably shouldn't speak this tactlessly.

You probably shouldn't steal all of these things. You probably shouldn't run around. And Orson Welles in a way, he's not like that interested in humor. I mean, the trial's really funny, but I think he's kind of a hero actor, isn't he, Orson Welles? And I also think maybe Orson Welles'

fatal flaw is one of self-pity. Whereas the Chaplin and Woody Allen characters, they're really quite tough. You can't destroy them. I think that's one of the strange things about clowns, because they've admitted to and exaggerated every flaw that you can perceive in them. I think that's one of the strange things about clowns, because they've admitted to and exaggerated every flaw that you can perceive in them. They become indestructible, whereas Orson Welles could be laughed at and ignored and in a way that's really quite painful when you see later, when you see him

getting his... I think there's a clip of him accepting almost like a lifetime achievement award at some American society and he does it brilliantly where he says something like far be it for me to beg for funds and he leaves this great pause and everyone laughs but I am still trying to make films but you know no one there I I mean, everyone's celebrating him, but no one's gonna give him any money. And that's, it's really kind of sad to feel the desperation of him in those adverts where he's drunk that there's something Shakespearean tragic

about Orson Welles that you struggle to say there is as much about Chaplin and Woody Allen. They're more sneaky, wily, very different characters, dramatic characters. Well, you put him back in his box. The holiday horn goes to doodoo. Holiday time. Have a carrot. Have two carrots. Go to the toilet. Take your time.

Holiday time. The other day we met up to go and see Mick Jones's exhibition, the Rock and Roll Public Library. we met up to go and see Mick Jones's exhibition, the Rock and Roll Public Library, and it's an archive of 20th century pop culture that he himself has amassed after his years of being a pivotal figure in the world, having been a member of the Clash and then Big Audio, Dynamite and all the other projects he's done over the years. Yes, there's a clip of him playing Train in Vain is one of the most moving things I've seen. There's one moment, I don't know why this really,

I don't know, gets me, why, cry, because everyone loves him so much and everyone loves what his music's done for them. And there's one bit where someone just shouts out to him like, go on Mick! And it's really, you kind of choke up watching, or maybe it's just me and I've got some, I'm having a breakdown, but it's so moving.

And he's so winning, his kind of smile, he's got the best smile, his voice, it's just him and a telecaster, it sounds great, everything about him is just a pleasure. Yeah. I'll put a link to that in the description. If you're ever not feeling good, you've watched that and everything's okay again. You and I were invited to one of the launch nights

When I were invited to one of the launch nights of this exhibition of Mick Jones' pop cultural archive, I imagined that we were going to get there and it was going to be just a few people wandering around a gallery space and we'd have a little chat with Mick and he would show us his laminates and you know jobs are good but actually we arrived and there was a giant queue of old punks. It was a big queue. It was a punk snake. Snaking out into Denmark streets of about a two mile solid two mile punk formation. A guy like, oh, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, then kind of commercialize it. Safety pins. Yeah. It was unsafe. It's an unsafe formation. So we we went back to our bourgeois homes, didn't we? We didn't even go in because it was a really cold night and... I think it was even cold. I think it was just the prospect of being kept waiting for even one second so enraged. Such old media hands that we couldn't go. Yeah, I think probably we

both had the same unrealistic dream of floating into a white gallery space. Yeah, being given champagne and then within half an hour, your best friends with Mick Jones. And then the Jack in just like, Mick, have you ever thought about, do you ever want to just jam? Exactly. On the side and go, yeah. going Mick have you ever thought about do you ever want to just jam exactly on the side and go yeah so he says to you let's jam and he says to me can I please be on your podcast yeah and then we leave the gallery we get given like a

couple of pics that they used yeah in the clash I was actually already going higher than that I thought he was gonna I don't really use some of these guitars I don't know whether I'm just gonna throw them out. Have you heard that Francis Bacon story? This is quite good Francis Bacon story whereby he was in the colony club and he said, I've just been to Harrods and they're useless. I just got a load of suits from them and they're disgusting, threw them all out. And then almost I think there's a pause, everyone leaves and they all go to Francis Bacon's house. And the next day they're all in Harrod suits.

And so I kind of thought it'd be a bit like that. I don't need this stuff. I always thought I wanted the guitars for somebody who could really play. Cause I heard you Play with Dinesville jr. And despite your protestations You might be a generational guitarist and I want to get the band back together again. Yeah, would you? Well, look, I'm not prepared to relinquish that dream. Mmm, and I would like to extend a warm

Invitation to Mick Jones to come onto the podcast and waffle about the old days and the new days and whatever else he wants to waffle about and you can come along too and you guys will jam and I'll sit there and I'll produce the session, I'll do some BVs and then we can all go home. I think the parallels between Joe Strummer and I can no longer be ignored and I think we should get it back together. What would be the Clash song you would most like to play? Train in Veins. Train in Veins. Yeah. Spanish Bombs I like a lot. Yeah White riot white man in hamas. Oh, that's a good one. I Lot of good songs there's lots of not rubbish songs

Yeah, if people were taking turns to play songs around the campfire Would you play and you had to sing as well? Oh if I had to sing Probably that. Yeah, you're right around the level for your life is good Anything you're looking for me Yeah Yeah. Wait. This advert is for Squarespace. Oh yeah!

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And started up a free trial I was playing baby I found a template that I liked and typed some words and dragged some pictures in, it really made me smile. Then when I was happy and decided I would buy it, I was prompted for an offer code I typed in Buxton and I saved 10%! That's right, at squarespace.com slash Buxton! I'm a website guy! Continue to the next part. I'm a website guy! I'm a website guy! I'm a website guy!

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Hey, welcome back, Podcats. That was Richard Ayoade talking to me there, and I'm very grateful to him indeed for coming along and making the time to have a chat. I'm hoping to put another episode out featuring Richard before too long, and that would be made up of a bit more of the live show that we recorded last year at the Palladium. There were a few bits of chat there about music, about our shared enthusiasm for Frank Black and the Pixies, and he was our guest, our musical guest at the show, and I'm hoping I might be able to include one of the songs that he played live. But the problem with anything that's got a musical

performance in it is that it has to be cleared for the podcast and that's proving to be more complicated than I would have hoped. Anyway, I hope that will emerge at some point. We also talked a bit more about Wes Anderson in that live podcast chat, so it could be a nice part two to today's episode. I've realised there's quite a few music related chats coming up in the podcast. I've been trying to listen to more music recently especially with the world the way it is there's only so much trump you can take. So in addition to all the politics chat I've been trying to stuff a bit more music in my ears. or politics chat I've been trying to stuff a bit more music in my ears. Yesterday Spotify served me up C-Mats single which she played on the podcast last week, Running Planning,

and it sounded great. The album version was terrific. And then Spotify served me up some squid. Mmm delicious. The album I've been listening to quite a bit recently is Sinister Grift by Panda Bear. I was never a huge Panda Bear fan. Animal Collective and all that. They were a bit too busy and the Panda Bear stuff I never got on with that well but this album I love it.

It reminds me a bit of De Hunter, who I also like. Anyway, Music Waffle, who knows? Maybe we'll get Mick Jones on the podcast and then it's gonna be golden music waffle time. Few links in the description of the podcast today. By the way, instead of putting loads and loads of related links in the description of the podcast. I'm putting a single link which will take you to my website, the page for the podcast on my

website, and you'll find all the links there, plus usually a picture of me and my guest. So this week you'll find, as well as the link to pre-order I Love You Bye, on the web page for this episode you'll find links for the unfinished Harold Hughes audiobook that's read by Richard himself as well as Chris Morris, David Mitchell, Lydia Fox, Noel Fielding, Sally Hawkins and Stephen Merchant. I don't have any guests on my audiobook. Well I've got Cornballs, I haven't recorded with him yet, but he's going to come in and record a couple of bits, including a bonus chat for the end of the audiobook, which will be an opportunity for him to respond to some of the things I've written about in there,

about working together and our relationship and occasional angsty moments. and occasional angsty moments. What else have I got link-wise for you? Article about the writing of straight story. There's the Future Islands performance on David Letterman that Richard was talking about, which is the gift that keeps giving. It's great. There's that performance of Train in Vain by Mick Jones,

the one that makes Richard weepy. And there's a trailer for The Phoenician Scheme. Click the related links button in the description of today's podcast for all that. All right, I think that's it for this week. Got to get to my audiobook session now. Thank you very much indeed to Seamus Murphy-Mitchell for production support and conversation editing. Thanks to Helen Green, she does the artwork for the podcast. Thanks to everyone at Acast.

Next time I will be back in the Norfolk countryside, hopefully on another day like this. It's been so nice this last week. I like it as well because it's cold. I would prefer overall to be a little colder than a little too hot. That's my personal preference. But just the blue skies and the bright sun, it makes everything a lot easier, doesn't it?

Anyway, I hope you're doing okay out there. Thank you so much for coming back. Listening right to the end, I hope you enjoyed it. How do you feel about a bench hug? Is that good phrase? Come here. Hey, nice to see you. Have a great day, don't jog too hard, and until next time we share the same out all space. I'm not gonna go too loud on the bike because I'm in a public park. Take good care. It's nutty out there and for what it's worth, do bear in mind that I love you. Bye! Like and Subscribe Please Like and Subscribe Give me a big smile and a thumbs up

Nice take a pant when me bum's up Give me a big smile and a thumbs up Nice take a pant when me bum's up Like and Subscribe Please Like and Subscribe Please Like and Subscribe Please Like and Subscribe Please Like and Subscribe

Give me a big smile and a thumbs up Nice take a pant when me bum's up Give me like a smile and a thumbs up. Nice like a button with me thumbs up. Give me like a smile and a thumbs up. Nice like a button with me thumbs up. Please like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe.

Please like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Please like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Please like and subscribe. I'm gonna go to the bathroom. I'm gonna go to the bathroom. I'm gonna go to the bathroom. I'm gonna go to the bathroom. I'm gonna go to the bathroom. I'm gonna go to the bathroom. I'm gonna go to the bathroom.

I'm gonna go to the bathroom. I'm gonna go to the bathroom. I'm gonna go to the bathroom. I'm gonna go to the bathroom. I'm gonna go to the bathroom. I'm gonna go to the bathroom. I'm gonna go to the bathroom. Thanks for watching!