THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.25 - RICHARD AYOADE (TRAVEL MAN CONVERSATIONS 2)

Episode Date: July 9, 2016

More conversation chunks featuring Adam Buxton and director, writer and actor Richard Ayoade, recorded in May 2016 while filming the Channel 4 TV show 'Travel Man' in Lisbon. There's an important discussion about pillows, more Big Moments and thoughts on what makes a great TV presenter. Richard also attempts to negotiate the moral minefield that comes with being a fan of Woody Allen's work. Thanks to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for production support. Music and jingles by Adam Buxton. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Look, I don't remember if this podcast has bad language in it or not, but just to be on the safe side, let's say it does. I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin. Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening. I took my microphone and found some human folk. Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke. Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan Hello, Adam Buxton here. How are you doing listeners?

Thank you very much for joining me for podcast number 25. And as you've probably surmised, this podcast features more conversations with actor, writer and director Richard Ayoade, recorded in between filming bits and pieces for his TV show Travelman, which I was a guest on back in May this year. Do you remember May 2016? I mean, it seemed pretty shit at the time, didn't it? But now, it's like the good old days. It was gravy. We didn't have any problems back in May. Anyway, Richard, the first convo chunk of today's episode

was recorded by Lisbon's Tower of Belem, a beautiful spot down by the Rio Tajo, where tourists and the makers of travel shows wander around on the promenade there by the tower, soaking up the sun and taking photographs and being serenaded by buskers. You can probably hear a couple of them while Richard and I are talking in the first bit. And from there, we got into a van to travel to the next location. And while in the van, we continued podcasting. You know, no matter how bad things get, you've got to continue podcasting, don't you? And I was leading the discussion at that point on the important subject of pillows.

Oh, thank goodness. Thank goodness someone has finally had the courage to step up and deal with the whole pillow situation. Yeah. Thanks very much, Buckles. You're welcome. And just to set the scene for that conversation, Richard was in the front seat of the van, the passenger seat. I was in the back next to Rachel, the AP, Sam, the sound man, and Nicola, the director, who had lost her voice at that point. I've forgotten the name of the driver. No disrespect to the driver. He was great,

brilliant driving and seemed like a terrific person and very good looking. I should say, though, that the whole podcast is not just me talking to Richard about pillows, although it may seem like that because it goes on for around 15 minutes or so. But it's a fascinating, incisive, literally incisive, as you'll discover, chat about pillows. But we also talk later on in the podcast about some more of Richard's big moments. And we had a couple of conversations about the good and the bad side of being a Woody Allen fan. So yeah, that gets fairly involved towards the end of the podcast, as you'll hear. But first, back to the sunny promenade around the Tower of Belem in Lisbon, and a brief chat before Richard was called away to do some more of the kind of

TV presenting that has previously seen him and his show, Travelman, and the brilliant people that put the show together, nominated for a BAFTA. It's quite a moving thing to watch, let me tell you. Here we go. What did you do last night? Because we had three hours off before our night shoot. Yes. So what do you do in a hotel room?

You don't have to say, like, absolutely everything you do in a hotel room. Well, I read a little bit. And do you sleep all right in hotels? No, I like to not be away from home so much. Well, kind of ever. Are you a pillow queen? I had a coronation ceremony with a pillow. Yeah, I get very queeny about pillows. Sometimes you can get a very high pillow and it feels like you're sleeping on a stepladder or something. Yeah, I get very queeny about pillows. Sometimes you can get a very high pillow and it feels like you're sleeping on a stepladder or something. Yeah. They weren't the worst pillows, but they were high pillows.

These were four foot high pillows that we had. In the hotel in Lisbon? Yeah. Yeah, they were pretty high. I mean, don't you find that uncomfortable? I feel like I'm getting a crick. It was a tiny bit uncomfortable, but it seems, you know, I don't know whether it'll make the national press our pillow discomfort. I don't know. I think it's important.

It is important. Because if it's happening to people as important as us... Oh, I daren't even think. It's happening to a lot of other people who don't have a podcast. Can you imagine? And can't get these issues out there. There aren't people without podcasts in this day and age, are there? Very few.

No, surely. In America once, in California, well, we were staying just outside Disneyland, the pillows were so massive there that I was driven to... Bigger than the bed? Yeah, I mean, a lot taller than the bed, yeah. Massive. You couldn't get into the room. It was just all pillow. Oh.

Look, see. You've been called. I'll tell you the end of the pillow story. Don't forget that story. OK. Ramble chat, let's have a ramble chat. We'll focus first on this, then concentrate on that. Come on, let's chew the fat and have a ramble chat.

Put on your conversation coat and find your talking hat. La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, Sorry. I have to stare forward because of my motion sickness. I'm not being imperious. No, no. So the pillow in our rooms in this disneyland hotel was so massive and stuffed absolutely stuffed with disney dreams with dreams and excitement that it was impossible to actually sleep on them and there was no there was nothing smaller or slimmer right and i couldn I couldn't sleep. I was being driven

mad and I, and I needed something. This is a harrowing story. I thought about stuffing clothes. Yes. Inside the pillowcase. And I did that one evening and that wasn't any good. So I thought, right, I'm going to have to take radical steps. So what did you do? I stabbed the pillow and I pulled out the stuffing. But that's damaging Disney property. I know it is. It's vandalism. You pulled out the stuffing? Yeah, I pulled out about half or three quarters of the stuffing before the pillow became like a decent actual mouldable pillow that would support my head and be comfortable. That feels like a kind of murder. I had to... It really did. It felt like a bad crime.

And it is, technically, isn't it? That's no good. Yeah. I felt like I'd been driven to it, and then I had to secrete the innards in a bin bag and sneak them out because I didn't want to get busted by them. That is... That's like a Coen Brothers scene. What did you do, bury it? Bury it deep in the ground?

No, I sneaked it out and put it in a waste bin outside the hotel grounds. And then what, sew the pillow back up? I only made a small incision, you see. This is really creepy and quite surgical. And it took me ages to pull all the innards out. And did you do it to everyone's pillow or just yours i was the only one that had that bigger problem everyone else was able to live with it yeah but you went full crazy yeah but i was glad i did it and then i was able to sleep

for the rest of the time so sam what was your suggestion sam i would have folded up a towel and used a towel you would have used a towel i tech did you were you not listening when i said i stuffed t-shirts in a pillowcase a towel is have you not done that before towels towels no good a disney towel fluffy no doubt an ample size i'm sure no no no it's too hard and t-shirts are too hard. It's not got enough give. It's not got the kind of give that Adam's come to expect, living his life. It's memory foam. He wants a pillow to mould precisely to his head.

Well, the thing is that when we stayed at the Doubletree Inn at Heathrow the night before flying out to Lisbon to do this show, and they had amazing pillows. It was like sort of crazy memory foam or something. I don't know what it was. It was like clouds. Nicola, the director, has lost her voice, so it sounds as if she's just very twee. Sounds like she's telling secrets.

It's like clouds. It's like clouds. She's actually got a It was like clouds. I'm going to partially raise this window. She's actually got a medical condition. Sorry. But it was like clouds, exactly. And I loved them so much, and I was so... I was like, oh, my God, I found the perfect pillow.

Because I used to have the perfect pillow, and I used to take it with me everywhere. And, in fact, I took it when I did Gadget Man, if you remember. Oh, you did take a pillow with you. I bought the pillow, yeah. I remember that very clearly. If you're listening to this and you're sub-mental, then you could look up the clip on YouTube,

me and Richard on a train, and me with my pillow that I used to take everywhere. But then one time we went to Centre Parcs. And that was your pillow. Do you still use that pillow now? No, because I went to Centre Parcs and I left it there. Oh. You're supposed to change it every six months.

Supposed to change your pillow every six months? Yeah. I love sweat and dead skin. Who are you, Liberace? Every six months? I mean, I don't follow these rules, but these are the rules. I don't follow those rules. I'm an outlier.

An inner case. This sounds like your death scene. I've got two pillow cases. Yeah. That's okay, isn't it? No, that's good. Yeah. Have you peeled off the clumpy inner box?

What colour's your pillow? Oh, it's... What's Don Corleone saying? Grey and... I can't understand. Black and white stripes. Lying in the orange groves. The actual pillow.

It's, yeah, it's stripy. Is it? Yeah. It's old school. It's a feathered downy one. Sweaty, sweaty. So what are you doing with these old pillows? You're discarding every half year.

Yeah, it's a bit off colour, yeah. Get rid of it. Are you chucking pillows every... Skin. Oh. I'm not chucking... I'm probably... 18 months, I'd say. 18 months. And what do you do?

You just bin it? You just bin the pillow? Yeah. That's so decadent. I know. I know. I mean, I've got pillows from when I was a child.

No. Everyone's getting rid of their pillows in this van. I know. You're supposed to... This is TV money. Yeah. You may use it once, throw it out the window.

You're supposed to get rid of your mattress after ten years, right? No way. But we still have the same mattress. Turn the mattress. Yeah, we've turned it many, many times. How often do you turn your mattress? Once a year we turn it. Once a year.

That's a good day, isn't it? Mattress day. Do you do it in a ceremonial way, all the children with the incense and chanting? We all get together, yeah. Flit, flit, flit, flit, flit, flit. Yeah. And then you, oh, you, hey, look at that stain. Remember?

Is it like the wicker man? Yeah. That was a hell of a night. Surrounded by burning pillows. All the good times, all the memories there, etched onto the mattress. But I was so tempted to... No, but I left my favourite pillow at Centre Parcs. Right.

And I phoned them up immediately and said, listen, I think I've left my favourite pillow there. Was it not labelled? No, it just looked like... You don't label your pillows? I should do now. From now on, I think I've left my favourite pillow there. Was it not labelled? No, it just looked like... You don't label your pillows? I should do now. From now on, I'm going to have a... That's the first thing I do as soon as I buy them. Exactly, I'm going to have a monogrammed pillowcase.

Have you heard that before about having to rotate your pillows? I didn't know you had to get rid of them every six months. I guess thinking about it... Because breaking in a new pillow is really difficult. I've never had that thought. Do you not find that they smell weird? Like, especially goose down. I think it's been so long since I've had a new pillow

that I can't even recall the sensation. I mean, I would live like a Unabomber, but for the civilising influence of my wife. Yeah. I found that the last few pillows... I'd still be sleeping in Danger Mouse duvet. I mean, right up until my late 20s. It was still, yeah, Thundercats duvet spreads.

I mean, this is all right, isn't it? What's the problem? I still like them. yeah Thundercats duvet spreads I mean this is alright isn't it? what's the problem? I still like them you can't at our age have probably themed duvet sets I'm sure people do yeah

I would say that several it's a tough conversation though do you ever watch Gogglebox? no is it good? well there's a couple of families in there especially the big German guy. He sits there sucking on his vape.

Right. He and his wife are clearly into sort of dark metal, whatever the phrase is. I see, dark metal. So he sits there watching, and then when something outrageous happens, he'll just go, No fucking way.

Don't fucking believe it. Oh, Jesus Christ. Anyway, I reckon that they've probably got... Paddington Bear Diva. Yeah. Or at the very least, Pantera Dube covers. OK, yes. That conversation about rotating the pillows

made me think of a time that I was ridiculed on the radio when I admitted that me and my wife shared a toothbrush you were ridiculed for that yeah there was that seems unfair it was a wave of people um getting in touch and saying you're disgusting you're a freak of course you don't share a toothbrush it's very you know people getting really heated like that is dangerous that's very dangerous wow because you are communicating infectious diseases all around your family home i see well i just thought well but when you know there's a lot of other intimate contact that's going on sure in an unregulated way as well well i mean my only question with that would be efficiency yeah i guess you can't brush your

teeth at the same time um but other than that sore like a bird with your one toothbrush i think it's i think it's a badge of closeness exactly with you and your wife and i applaud it thanks i certainly wouldn't ring in to pillory you no that, people love an opportunity for some pillorying these days. going to share them with you all. Moments, big moments. I do remember completing a sticker album, a football sticker album, when I was 11. And I was so, I was the first person in the class to complete the sticker album. Panini, was it? Panini. I'd made a series of exit swats. Were they called Panini?

I think they were called paninis yeah they were toasted slightly yeah and i finished the chart and i was so pleased that i had a spontaneous nosebleed did you really this is a moment did you seriously start getting your nose blue yeah because you were so jazzed. And Tom said, what's going on? Why is there blood coming from your nose? Sticker chart! Complete! How old were you? I think I was 11, or maybe 10.

OK. Summer, birthday. It was final year of primary school. You know, that's when life makes a little bit of sense, isn't it? When things like that happen. I remember swapping a stack of stickers almost as high as my arm for a single last sticker. Yeah. But suddenly all of these things were meaningless once the chart was finished. I didn't want any of this stuff.

Yeah. It's worthless. Good for you. I think the world is divided into people who finish their sticker charts. And people like me who, just in a very dilettante-ish way, dabble. Dabble. And then think, nah. No, once I was on that ride, I had to complete.

What about in your professional life? Have you had... Nothing to rival that. Nothing's been as good as the moment of completing the sticker charts. Yeah. You met Woody Allen though, right? I did meet Woody Allen. That was quite exciting. I was oddly dressed exactly like him. Yeah. Cord trousers, sports jacket, Czech shirt. Under what circumstances did you meet him? He was filming Cassandra's Dream, which Sally Hawkins was in.

He was doing that in the UK? Yes. And so I think she invited me to come. But clearly they'd been warned at the level of my Woody Allen fandom. Yeah. When I went onto the set, everyone seemed to go, Oh, you're the Woody Allen. Especially as you were dressed exactly like him.

Strange person, yes. And Colin Farrell and Ewan McGregor were there. Oh, yeah. Who were very nice and polite, but I could not concentrate at all on them. OK, sure, yeah. Where's Woody? So did you actually have a little conversation with him?

We had a conversation. What did you talk about i talked about um sven nickvist a little bit in my bergman's cinematographer there was quite a lot of um stuttering yeah he said you're welcome to stay and watch and And at the end, he probably stayed quite a while to watch. He went, you can go now, in quite a funny way. Yeah. And he shook hands. There was no germaphobic thing. Right, OK, because that's the story I heard about him, yeah.

No, it was all fine. Seemed very pleasant and non-odd. That's great. So you didn't come away thinking, oh, I wish I hadn't done that. It wasn't a crushing experience. It was perfectly pleasant. Yeah.

And he seemed happy to talk about Sven Nykvist. Yeah. Have you seen any of your work? He wouldn't shut up about it. He was, I mean, obsessive is too strong. No, I'd hope not. Do you get to keep the gadgets on gadget man? That's not a good impression. Can you do a good Woody Allen impression? Oh no. It just involves touching your glasses a lot. Yeah. It's strange meeting people who you're very familiar with.

Yes. Because you feel you're in the middle of a conversation and they're at the start of possibly wanting to avoid one. Whereas you're going, hey, remember that time I saw you and the, ah, and that other thing you did? And especially with Woody Allen, who can be reduced to a simple line drawing and they recognize him what was the first woody allen film you saw that made an impression well that

made an impression actually was another woman which is a strange one to start with oh i don't think i've seen that one yes well my friend ben ramster his parents were both um psychiatrists and so they really liked Woody Allen they liked that one and I remember watching that and so I started with the serious ones that in September maybe gosh haven't seen that either and then watched the

and went oh he's quite funny as well so yes it was a strange way round and then the stand up CD which I think is the best stand-up album. What's your favourite routine on there? Oh, crumb. I mean, it is, there isn't anything bad on that stand-up CD. I can't, oh, gosh. Is there just the one CD?

I do like it when he, they're all running through the street. They've all fallen asleep and they all are hypnotised and they're running down the street together and they decide to work as one truck. Oh, yeah. That is just such... He really does do incredible jokes. But, you know, I cheated on my metaphysics paper.

I looked within the soul of the boy next to me. Yeah, that's great. I mean, these are amazing jokes. Amazing jokes with an amazing character. It's rare that there are both. And that character can do surreal jokes and jokes about being in the real world, and they're completely fluid and extraordinary.

Hello, Adam Buxton here. I'm in my nutty room just setting the scene for the last couple of bits of conversation with myself and Richard. These took place on the plane back from Lisbon to the UK after four very enjoyable days of filming. And the first conversation that we had on the plane was about the subject of television presenters.

And this is what was said in that important exchange. Do you think Vernon Kaye, if pushed, could unpack his entire methodology? Would there be a methodology? Yeah. Would he say sometimes you know I I know when to push I know when to back off of course

or how could you doubt that I don't know I wonder whether I'd like I'd like to say that I think Vernon would

probably be very modest about what is undeniably a considerable skill set and I think he would say you know I just feel it or I rely on. And I think he would say, you know, I just feel it or I rely on...

Oh, right, OK. I think he would downplay it. Well... I wonder whether he would... You might be right, but I bet you there are presenters. I mean... Go on. There is obviously...

I hate the way I said go on there as if somehow I was granting it. Go on. You're very welcome. Yeah. There you go. Thanks very much. It's your floor. It's your floor.

There is obviously a skill to it, right? There's such a thing as a good presenter and a bad presenter. And there are some people who are really good at it and some people who aren't so good. Who's your top five? Oh, man. Well, the thing is, the problem is that it's a bit of a thankless task because if you're really good at it, it's sort of invisible and no one ever really gives you any props. Tell me about it.

The Dermots. The Dermots. The Dermots. I think Ant and Dec are pretty great. Talk to me. I asked them to be on this podcast and they said no. They're the Daniel Day-Lewis of presenting. I think they're so in character.

Yeah. You think it's them, but it's not them. You don't reckon? You reckon they're secret Ant and Dec? Of course. They've got to keep some Ant and Dec back for themselves. And for those dear to them. They make it look like it's just breathing, but it's not just breathing.

No. Well, this is probably exactly why they didn't want to be on the podcast, because they knew the buckles would absolutely strip all this away. They don't show this one-legs. Sure. They're really good, man. They're hugely likeable. They are. They create a comfortable atmosphere. I have zero

beef with them. Right. Nothing. Who's your favourite? Or one of them? Well, I like Kenneth Clark. The things I like about him, it's just empire. It's true empire. Yep. I like about him it's just empire it's true empire I like how squinty he looks he just looks as if the sun

is barrelling into his eyes it sounds like he hasn't had a drink of water for four days he's always is he clicky? he's very clicky in a wonderful way there's your tea, thank you very much do in a wonderful way. There's your tea. Thank you very much.

Do you want to pause while you do your tea? No, it's fine. I'll just back up. Let's move on. OK, Kevin MacLeod. For me, I've never tired of listening to Kevin MacLeod. Anything MacLeod is involved with is a joy. I love him. I really do. My wife and I...

I don't think it would be to overstate it, adore him. Yeah. I love the sound of his voice. Do you sit there and watch Grand Designs and comment on great things about him that you love? We go, that was a great summer. He knows where the tension is, but he's not going to exploit it yeah he can ask about money in a way that doesn't seem gauche uh-huh he cares he's always looking to see sometimes it's not gone well we know it's not gone well everyone knows it's gone

not gone well but mcleod will say the things that he likes about it. Yeah. He'll say, yes, it's a difficult space. But what they've done to it, it's very brave. I think, I genuinely think he's a force for good. Yeah, sure. Mel and Sue. Mel and Sue, yeah. I think they're brilliant. They're really funny.

I like them. Yeah, they've come into their own. I like them more now than I used to back in the day, but that's possibly because we felt competitive with them, me and Joe. Right. Because they had lunch and they were kind of mainstream. Oh, I see, yes. Grills.

Grills is a ludicrous proposition, isn't he? I mean, I did watch Survivors or whatever it was, The Island. I haven't seen that. Well, I hadn't seen it, but then my wife... My wife? I was suggesting watching a movie or something. OK. And she said, oh, God, no, I don't want to watch a movie.

Can we watch The Island? I see. And I really don't want to watch a movie. Can we watch The Island? I see. And I really didn't want to watch it, but I thought, here's a good opportunity for me to be nice and not be a real prick and sulk. Okay. And so I said, yeah, okay. Like that.

In a totally non-passive-aggressive way. I really liked how cheerful your voice became there. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's great. Yeah, brilliant. Okay. Good idea. Do you want to watch it? No, I mean, no. No, but let's watch it. Oh, I can't enjoy it now. Now that I know that you don't want to watch it, I can't enjoy it. No, no, that's okay. It looks interesting.

Oh, great. No, it's gone. No, no, we'll just watch what you want to watch. No, we'll watch what you want to watch. Come on. It's fine. No, actually, I'm tired. I want to watch it. Let's watch it. I'm tired. I'm actually tired. Let's watch it. I what you want to watch. No, we'll watch what you want to watch. Come on. It's fine. No, actually, I'm tired. I want to watch it. Let's watch it. I'm actually tired. Let's watch it. I'm happy just to read. I want to watch the island.

I'm happy just to read. Watch it. Look at it. Don't. It's my favourite programme. It's got Bear Grylls. Look, the guy's just fallen off the cliff. He could have broken his back.

What's wrong with you? You're cold. Please. Go to bed then. I just want to rest, OK? No, that's not how it went. It was way cheerier than that. Okay. In the past I would have... You would have

really made her pay for that. Not really. Not massively. Like fines? Just some low-level sulking. Okay. Or maybe I would have said, hey, you watch this. I'm going to go and just stand outside. Okay. Or I'm going to go and just stand outside. OK.

Or I'm going to do some work or something. It's fine. I'm just going to lie on the floor on the ball. I would have stretched and gone, I think I'm going to... Or maybe gone to bed. I'm going to go to bed. OK. But I didn't do that.

Instead, we watched Grills. The psychodrama is just... Right. It's intense. Grills. Grills. Grills. This is an advert for Squarespace. Every time I visit your website, I see success. Yes, success.

The way that you look at the world makes the world want to say yes. It looks very professional. I love browsing your videos and pics, and I don't want to stop and I'd like to access your members area and spend in your shop these are the kinds of comments people will say about your website if you build it with Squarespace just visit squarespace.com slash Buxton for a free trial and when you're ready We'll see you next time. domain so put the smile of success on your face with squarespace yes hey so we had about half an hour left of our flight back to the uk and richard and i started talking about Woody Allen again. And that's kind of a difficult area, obviously. But we were focusing mainly on how difficult it is to differentiate between an artist who may have

behaved in a way that pretty much everyone would consider unacceptable and the work that that artist creates. So we already heard that Richard's a big fan of Woody Allen's work. But as most people, I think, are aware, Woody Allen was accused of molesting his daughter when she was seven. And the case was dropped in 1993 after several investigations proved inconclusive. But then Woody Allen's daughter in 2014 repeated those allegations on a New York Times blog, and the whole case was brought very much back into the forefront of extremely passionate public debate. And I was interested to hear from Richard how he rationalizes the problems of being a Woody Allen fan in a world that seems more and more to demand that we stand very firmly on one side or the other

of any issue, no matter how complex or how impossible it may be for those outside of that controversial case to know the real truth. And we didn't even attempt to discuss the specifics of the Woody Allen case. But even talking about the quandaries thrown up in its wake made us feel as though we were stepping into a minefield somewhat. And neither of us is particularly skilled at nor relishes the prospect of having arguments about this kind of thing on social media. And so you may think, well, don't talk about it on the podcast then. But I think that I want to talk about these things. I think it's interesting and important in a way. And I didn't actually say that much in this conversation.

It was mainly Richard telling me how he feels about it, which I found very interesting. So this is what he had to say. Before we were talking about Woody Allen. Yes. And when we concluded our conversation, you said, I feel as if I need to sort of add some kind of caveat. Well, yes, it's interesting. You originally said to me when you were talking about doing this podcast, whether it could be on the subject of the difficulty of being a Woody Allen fan. Right.

whether it could be on the subject of the difficulty of being a Woody Allen fan. Right. And is it something you could even particularly discuss? And it's a very difficult situation, I suppose, because I guess it calls into question the idea of what necessary overlap is there between someone's life and what their work is. Are they necessarily intertwined? Can you enjoy work produced by someone whose actions you may not approve of?

What's the link? What's the... I remember when trial by media was used as a phrase to disparage a certain kind of process. You wonder, was something as sensitive as the allegations in the Woody Allen case, how on earth, as a person outside of it, could you know what happened it's a i suppose what do you do as a citizen

and there's a necessary component about it which is a a public figure is going through a court case and it's of intense interest to everyone and then there's another side to it where you go, do we trust a court to weigh the evidence of these matters fairly and accurately and is there an inbuilt bias or is there an inbuilt tendency for there to be miscarriages of justice when rich or powerful people are accused. Miscarriages in favour of the accused. In favour of the powerful person. And so I think there's probably a suspicion.

That he's getting away with it. Which is often justified, it seems. Well, I guess it seemed that way with OJ, didn't it? Yeah, that you have a figure who, because of their wealth, because of their power, because of their access, perhaps, to better legal counsel, may get away with things that someone, without their resources... Good. They're actually weighing in on this topic. She's saying you're sick.

And you are insensitive. Right. As soon as we're recording this, it's got a different feeling to the conversation we will have. this, it's got a different feeling to the conversation we will have, because I feel you know me and will forgive my lack of rigour, forgive my uncertainties and my contradictory logic, that you're going to seek to retrieve from what I say something of sense. This is if the conversation wasn't being recorded. Yes. No I don't think that changes now that it's being recorded from your perspective but I sort of feel aware that as soon as you go on record talking about something

do you have a kind of responsibility to make sure one that you're accountable for what you say, and two, that what you're saying is far less speculative than you might allow yourself in a conversation with a friend. So, you know, I started watching Woody Allen films when I was a teenager. I remember being a Woody Allen fan when this whole thing happened. There being two stages seemingly to it, like the Sun Yi thing, which is... That alone is an incredibly incendiary situation. Yeah.

What do I do? Do I go, I don't approve of how Woody Allen conducted that. I can't enjoy his films anymore. Now, that, I think, could be a legitimate response. But if someone else continues to enjoy his films, should I heck to that person and say, you can't watch what that person does because they're a bad person, or I'm not sure i really believe in the

idea of good or bad people i feel that everyone you know it's like that girter thing where he said i cannot conceive of a prime that i myself could not have committed and i suppose compassion has no value unless it's extended to everyone. It can't be something that's only extended to some people. By its nature, everyone is capable of great evil, I think. Everyone is. Yes, absolutely. I guess the thing that happens now when these subjects are talked about is that people fear you have to make a... Take sides. You have to take sides and you have to make a clear, easily digestible statement about a serious subject.

And when it's something like this, the allegations against Woody Allen, you have to consider all the people going through something similar and the victims of similar kinds of situations whose voices aren't being heard. And then suddenly that case with Woody Allen becomes emblematic of all those others and it becomes fused with something different. And so it's then impossible to talk about the fact of the Woody Allen case in isolation. It's very hard. There's a really great George Saunders story called A Thought Experiment. And it's done metaphorically, but it's sort of in his non-fiction collection,

The Braindead Megaphone, which is another brilliant article on media and just how the fact that a prime component of media is to sell itself does not necessarily mean it can't contain truthful things but that is unignorable you know the there are many terrible things happening that aren't being reported. There is an overlap here with someone who people want to know about. And that is a factor that is unignorable in it. But in this other story, the thought experiment, it's an urge towards understanding. And wouldn't it be more interesting

rather than having so many things, I guess, on the internet which seek to immediately condemn and to judge and to categorize to understand and complicate things. But that isn't very often the case, I find. Right. And I tend to like people who say, I don't know, I'm not sure, and the reality is... Wishy-washy.

Wishy-washy. Wishy-washy. But, you know, we don't know, do we? No, of course we don't know. We obviously don't know. And I don't know. Can you? No, of course we don't know. We obviously don't know. And I don't know. Can you listen to Lead Belly? Because of the kind of person that he was. Yeah. And Chuck Berry. You like Caravaggio? And, uh... I don't know. You know, Philip Larkin. And

also, what did he represent anyway? What is he exactly meant to embody? What the hell am I talking about now? Yeah. Right. Like, for example, I was watching a rerun of Sesame Street. That he directed. That he directed. And anyway, Bill Cosby came on.

Oh, yeah. And you go, oh, what is this? Meanwhile, my daughter's happily watching it. What's occurring in that situation is relatively complex. I'm going, it seems pretty likely that Bill Cosby has assaulted in a grievous, awful way a number of women. And yet there's this thing occurring here where he is a person, he's a human. And he is instantly entertaining a child.

Entertaining who knows nothing of this. Right. That's a strange situation, a very dissonant situation. Would it be more comfortable to say, no, he's completely excommunicated, everything that he's produced should be burnt, destroyed, erased. I mean, that's what happened with Savile, though, isn't it? Savile, the process what happened with Savile though, isn't it? Savile, there's a process

of redacting Savile has been fairly thorough. But what does it undo? You're trying to reduce the likelihood of that offence of seeing him and being reminded of what he did and having to

struggle with that complicated set of feelings. I mean, it's less difficult with Savile because it's not like... Yes, of course. It's not like we've been robbed of a glorious body of work. But obviously someone who encounters in the future some work of Jimmy Savile knowing nothing of what he did and who manages to be entertained by it, is probably not a participant in a crime scene.

Ah. It's very complex. I don't know what the call for a boycott is precisely to do with. Who are you talking about now? With say Woody Allen Well I guess for Woody Allen people would say okay here's a good place to start, let's not trumpet

his genius. Why not? It may be the awful thing that, I don't know I mean to me it's it's almost impossible to have a conversation about it because there are real people involved who are living out the consequences of whatever happened very publicly and very painfully.

And the idea of glibly or idly speculating about it seems monstrous on record in a certain way because there's always a kind of interest in public trials which seems to me awful. Like, what business is it of ours? Paul McCartney's divorce from Heather Mills. This is none of my business whatsoever. So on that level, it seems, how can we speculate about it? There's another level which is, do we in any way trust the legal process to sort this out at all? If the answer is no, if the answer is no,

is there an argument for saying we need to look at the legal system, which is clearly consistently miscarrying cases like this. There's an inherent problem. Now, what do you do on the flip side of it? That means that there is no possible way ever for someone to clear their name There must be cases where an accusation is false that must Exist if we are also saying there is no way you can ever trust the legal system to actually determine

What has happened then anyone who is accused of something, it's as good as they've done it, aside from they may escape punishment, but in terms of the notion that they did do that, that will never be eradicated, no matter what occurred. And then there's another part of it, which is, can people be separated from what they do? Can, well, let's take the idea, I don't, why am I saying we? But take the idea of good people and bad people.

Does that even exist? Are there some people who just are, who are inherently good are there people who are inherently evil what do we do with evil people are they like is there a good people club and then a bad person club and then we can't have anything from the bad person club aren't we all culpable for something going wrong yeah i mean do we not share culpability? And there's this awful idea that somehow culpability lies without us. And that feels to me terrifying.

The kind of awful certainty of people feeling that, oh, over there are some terrible people and we're the good people pointing out the terrible people. Now, of course, there's still crime, and there are terrible things that are done, and I do think very often there has to be punishment. But I don't know, there's a component of awful smugness, I think, that sometimes exists in the accusation of people not involved whatsoever.

It doesn't feel like they really want to get to the bottom of an incredibly complex situation. It feels like they just want to say someone's an arsehole. Right. And that's kind of, and if you don't agree with them, you are also an arsehole. And that doesn't seem complex enough. And that doesn't seem complex enough. And then the other thing that's interesting is, how are your feelings about someone's work affected by who they are?

How are your feelings about the album Nevermind are affected by Kurt Cobain having killed himself? Can you still enjoy it in the same way? Or that Lead Bell belly was a murderer or yeah whatever you know can you still obtain joy and is and can someone have failed utterly can someone have done something so terrible that it's almost unimaginable and can they still create produce joy beautiful yeah and i'd say the answer has to be yes well clearly they have done yeah and also just time passing and distance enables us to enjoy work that people have made hundreds of years ago yeah we're almost certainly low quality human beings yeah in some cases but also we don't worry about it because it's just not yes there's a time factor yeah it's heartbreaking that you're

you know so hard to enjoy things and to have an uncomplicated enthusiasm for things, while nowadays you're just almost dreading the moment when it turns out that your favourite this or that has got a really seamy underbelly. Although in a way that's the least of one's problems in some ways. You kind of go if someone finds it harder to enjoy sleeper, that's

so what in a certain way. I was like, hey, she hasn't done anything wrong. Hey, what's wrong with Louise Werner? What's she done? But it's you know, I don't know what the hell am I

doing wading in on this in a form that's going to be a twitter cluster have things that have been said on this podcast been pulled out of context and not so far

as far as I'm aware except for me talking about women putting on makeup or well i talked about people putting on makeup i use as an example a woman putting on makeup okay and i i i did find that quite offensive actually well i mean when i listened back to it i could see how people would think that maybe I meant that. But I just assumed that it was so obvious I didn't. I thought, well, if you're listening to this podcast, you've probably heard other things I've said. You know that I wouldn't give a woman a hard time or anyone a hard time for doing something like that. Yeah.

Couldn't you just read between the lines and give me the benefit of the doubt? I think I'm often very defensive and worried about saying what I think because it being on record inevitably alters it. Like Abbas Kourostami said, why can't you get the feeling on camera that you get as soon as you say cut and everyone relaxes? There's something inherently skewed as soon as it's being recorded because I can't help

but have a part of my brain go this ought to make sense this ought to be like when someone cogent writes something and presents it for public consumption whereas what's interesting about

these things and podcasts is that you feel you're just having a conversation, but in effect you're making a statement. I think some people feel, though, that... I mean, the example of me talking about the make-up thing is totally trivial, really. Yeah. But I did feel defensive about it when people started criticising me.

But I think maybe those people felt like i'd been busted and i was being defensive because actually they saw they saw the real you yeah and um and maybe i needed to look again at some of my attitudes that i wasn't embarrassed about and that i freely expressed but maybe needed to be changed and maybe that is and and that I'm sure can be valuable yeah but crippling self-consciousness probably isn't very valuable no and also the yeah a kind paralysis, which is about trying to second guess possible objections. That seems like politics. Yeah, yeah.

And also, probably people are listening to your podcast because you're funny and entertaining and they want to be entertained. And they are. to be entertained, and they are. And maybe they, you know, I don't know how funny this 20-minute bit is going to be. I'll chop it right down to make you sound quite clear. OK, that's good. So, there we go. I hope you found that at least interesting. I did. And I really appreciate

Richard being up for talking to me about so many things and being so eloquent and such good company. And I can't thank him enough, really. And also the crew of Travelman, who put up with me, you know, just insisting on podcasting at every available opportunity in what must have been quite an irritating fashion, especially as they were all trying to get a job done. But they were very nice about it, and I really had a great time. So thanks very much to them and Richard thanks to you for

downloading this podcast I always feel as if I should be reeling off a whole list of things that you can go and spend your money on to fund the podcast but currently they are not in place maybe if you're listening in the future, that will have changed. I mean, I really would like to one day have T-shirts and baseball caps and, you know, jock straps and all the regular stuff. But so far, I haven't got that together. One day, one day. We're still early days, though, isn't it? It's just number 25.

Early days. and what else um i suppose uh you know if you're listening to these podcasts as they come out then you may be frustrated by the lack of regularity and you know like there's no specific day that they come out on and sometimes you wait a week and sometimes it's two or even longer um and i appreciate that that must be very very difficult and frustrating for you and i'm so sorry um sounds like i'm being sarcastic now and i am half being sarcastic but i also do appreciate that it must be kind of annoying so I apologize but you know it's it's because I mainly do this thing on my own and um uh that continues to be the case despite my best efforts having said that I very much appreciate the help that I've been given by

Seamus Murphy Mitchell uh thanks very much indeed Se, for your notes and your input. And that's about it. Rosie, Rosie, come on. Rosie, come on, let's head back. Here she comes. You up for a flyby. Here comes the hairy bullet. Oh, you're coming to say hi. I thought you were just going to go straight past. Are you all right? Hey, don't wander away. How are you doing, famous dog?

What's it like being a famous dog? Rosie. OK. I mean, you used to be able to just speak to me. What's happened to that? Well, I still can. I can still speak occasionally. All right, there you go. So why do you not just speak to me, then?

Cos I don't know if you know, but I'm quite... I'm famous. And I'm, like, a YouTube personality. You know, six million. All right, so it's a lot, but it's hardly Gangnam Style. It's more than any of your videos have ever got. That is true. Listen, Rosie, don't let the fame go to your head, though. I wouldn't want you just to turn into a dick.

Okay, thanks. Good advice. I'm off to kill a squirrel and do a poo on the carpet of your office again. All right. Have a good one. Oh, well. Thanks very much indeed, listeners.

Take care of yourselves and each other. And I look forward to us being together again before too long. I love you. Bye! and I look forward to us being together again before too long. I love you. Bye! Thank you.