THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.49 - LOUIS THEROUX

Episode Date: September 24, 2017

Join Adam & Louis Theroux for documentary related chat that includes heroin, documentary heroes and ’S-Town’ WARNING: CONTAINS S-TOWN SPOILERS, STRONG LANGUAGE AND WEAK LANGUAGE Thanks to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for production support and Matt Lamont for additional editing. Music & jingles by Adam Buxton Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human folk Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man I want you to enjoy this. That's the plan. Rosie.

Rosie, come here, sweetie. Come here. Oh, she's coming. Oh, she stopped. Come here, Rose. I just want to say hi. I just want to hug. I want to commune.

Hey. Nice to see you. Friday night, Rosie. We're going to be curled up on the sofa in about two hours. Watching Tin Star. Yeah, it's getting exciting, isn't it? It's a free Tin Star plug there i'm enjoying it anyway how you doing listeners adam buxton here just out for a walk with rose as the sun goes down the nights are definitely drawing in autumn Autumn is on the horizon. And then winter. It's nearly Christmas.

All right, I'm getting ahead of myself. Let me tell you about this week's episode. Podcast number 49, which features a conversation recorded in June of this year, 2017, with documentarian, journalist, and unlikely tattoo star, Louis Theroux. Google Louis Theroux tattoos. You'll be surprised how many people have made the decision to tattoo the face of Louis onto parts of their body. Many of those tattoos double as Harry Potter tattoos because they've gone for a young incarnation of Louis with round specks.

And it looks for all the world like a young Daniel Radcliffe. But anyway, I digress. We don't talk about the tattoos in this conversation. We started out talking about drugs, specifically heroin. And from there, we moved on to a couple of encounters that Louis has had in the past with some legends of the documentary genre. We also talked about podcast documentary sensation S-Town,

which caused such a stir earlier this year, although we did focus mainly on the voices of S-Town's presenter and subject, and that's when we weren't going off on tangents. And I should say at this point that if you haven't heard S-Town, I'm imagining that most of you podcats have, but if you have not heard S-Town and you'd like to avoid spoilers best not listen to the second half of this podcast just yet and in that second half there are one or two moments that I considered cutting out today specifically a couple of incredibly bad impressions and a bit of negativity from me as well, which I regret

because I'm not a fan of the negativity. But I kept them in because they made us laugh at the time. And we were laughing really at how shit we were being, as in useless. So I hope you'll take those moments in the right spirit. I mean, if you are one of the people that we were talking about, then I sincerely apologise, and I hope you'll let me buy you a drink to say sorry sometime.

Here we go! Ramble Chat Let's have a Ramble Chat We'll focus first on this, then concentrate on that Come on, let's tune the fat And have a ramble chat Put on your conversation coat And find your talking hat

La, la, la, la, la, la La, la, la, la, la, la La, la, la, la, la, la, la what have you been doing today lou i was up at five to film in a in an anorexia clinic an eating disorders clinic. That's the new thing. That's what we're filming. It's about eating disorders. And is that part of a series that's coming out on the BBC?

Basically, I think it'll be a one-off. You know, I've done a three-parter in America about crime, which is nearly done. We're just editing the last one. And so we needed to do another program. And anorexia and eating disorders was in the hopper as a sort of one that we talked about.

And also because I'm moving back to the States in August with the family, I liked the idea of doing a UK one before we went. How was the crime scene in America? Whereabouts were you? Three different cities. The first one is Milwaukee. Homicide in Milwaukee.

It's got a very, very high murder rate. Unhappy days. That is set in Milwaukee. That's right. Very true. Why can't the Fonz sort it out? It's now a bit of a homicide capital. It's a sad story.

Also, sex trafficking in Houston. Trafficking doesn't mean smuggling. It means pimping, basically. Guys who have little bands of women who they basically transport around, move from motel to motel, and then they take all their money it's a very odd arrangement they they are it's like a little cult where the the pimp is in charge of a stable of women who's they you know using brute force and psychological intimidation and a kind of cult-like control he pimps them out and takes their money very odd and the third one is about heroin in huntington west virginia the heroin epidemic how long has that been going on then because i've started hearing more and more about it the heroin epidemic. How long has that been going on then? Because I've started hearing more and more about it. The heroin situation, we're in the middle of a crescendo. So we haven't reached peak heroin. It's gone up year on year for the last, I'm guessing four or five years, but it's been going on. The opiates epidemic has been going on since the late 90s. Does that include prescribed medication? Well, that's how it started it started with prescription drugs

and then it built because to give you the background there were these big pharmaceutical companies which created and marketed these painkillers based on opium like um oxycontin is the famous one because while i was having a glib conversation with claudia o'doherty this comedian australian comedian who now lives in la and she was telling me about how she'd accidentally taken oxycontin and spent the weekend tripping balls basically it's heavy heavy stuff and you have 20s 40s and 80s 80s are the most powerful and it would tranquilize a horse from what i understand and based on a slightly misunderstood and very limited study scientific study they were marketed as non-addictive.

But that's balls. And there was a rampant addiction throughout America and especially places in the Midwest and parts of New England and also very much so around the Appalachian Mountains. Something to do with heavy industry and places with large working class populations that get workplace injuries right uh they just need to manage managing back pain so it was a paradoxical effect where they finally tightened up the regulations on prescribing these drugs when they realized how many people were getting addicted but instead of fixing the problem all the people who could no longer get their oxycontin then started taking heroin because that's they couldn't get their usual drugs and that led to rampant overdose

because from knowing how much they were taking in each pill suddenly they're getting these very variable quantities of of heroin much harder to manage often laced with even more powerful drugs called fentanyl or carfentanil which is an elephant tranquilizer and so there were there are literally uh hundreds if not thousands of overdoses and deaths every year and did you get a sense of how people make that transition from taking prescribed medication in a fairly formal way getting a prescription from a doctor or whatever to going and taking illegal drugs how does that happen well it's very straightforward i mean literally the doctor will say look i'm not going to issue you another prescription and then the

person will go off and get dope sick go into a very heavy withdrawal and then seek out a heroin dealer or in other cases it's people who aren't getting from from the doctors you know these places were awash with prescription drugs whether or not they were prescribed legally you know people would get phony prescriptions or they would just dip into their family members drugs supplies and and but then once it was all tightened up everyone moved en masse into illegal heroin i mean you might be getting it from the same dealer you might have been getting prescription drugs illegally and then your man says that well i haven't got any oxys

what about some black tar heroin hmm yes please and then as part of your program, were you in any way speculating as having heroin cakes? I did not take any. None. Have you ever taken any? Heroin? Yeah. No. Would you admit it if you had?

Would I admit it if I had? It would be weird, wouldn't it? Would I? Maybe not. It would skew the program. Yeah. Well, here and now or in the program just generally it's not the sort of thing i probably would it would be fraught with too many kids you know at the age where they

hear about stuff yeah but i haven't taken it i think my dad wrote in one of his books about smoking opium he definitely did in the great railway bazaar which i remember reading about when i was about 11 years old so there's sort a... Did your dad ever give you a big drug talk? Or did he just assume that you would find your way and you'd be careful? I got very mixed messages on drugs because I was reading my dad's books and reading about him getting high. But then when I started experimenting with weed, hash, ganj. I've never relied on the perfect word. Have you?

What is your favourite cannabis? Doobie? That's the worst. Why is it bad? Because it's just so lame. Doobie. I like a bit of doobie. Doobie, doobie.

Reminds me of the Doobie Brothers. Why were they called the Doobie Brothers? Because they liked doobie. Well, that's good then. It just sounds... The Doobie Brothers were good guess it does. Why were they called the Doobie Brothers? Because they liked Doobie. Well, that's good then. It just sounds... The Doobie Brothers were good. It sounds insipid. It does, yeah. So you want something that sounds hard.

I want something that's got any shit. Hash, anyway, was what we smoked back in the day. And when I told... I think I even went to him and said, Oh, yeah, Dad, I went and got high last night. Like, thinking he'd go like, Oh, nice one, son. Not only was he not pleased pleased he became sort of annoyed and and passive-aggressive like he knew he couldn't really kind of go off the deep end that wasn't his style generally anyway but

he was like what are you doing you could you really why i mean you could get expelled i mean i don't mind you doing it but you didn't want to come on square. So he had some weird reason for why it was a bad idea. I mean, that's the thing. You might even be like, you don't even know if you're getting good shit. You know, like something as random as that. Yeah. Because he doesn't have a leg to stand on. That's the thing is, if you're a parent that's experimented in your younger days, then what do you say?

I mean, it's so nakedly hypocritical for a child to hear that. The sad part is I genuinely went into it thinking, oh, dad's going to be cool with it. Yeah. Me and dad can bond like, hey, son, did you get wasted? Let's do some hot knives. Hey, yeah, let's hot knife right now. I'll give you a blowback.

And instead of which, he was all huffy about it well frank zapper famously i remember instructed his children that if they did any drug experimentation it was to be done in the house really yeah zapper himself he smoked a lot of ciggies i don't think he ever did drugs he famously was anti-drug yeah and at various points i think most of the children went off the rails did they i don't know i mean it's a sad story because the zapper clan is is at war with each other now is it yeah um over who has the rights to the music and to play the music and this and that and which ones have fallen out the two kids the two boys i think the two boys and i think maybe do we i think gail their mother is no longer with

us i think she died right but do they both want to play the music i've i lost track you know gallagher the american he might even be canadian comedian had a brother and he gallagher's act was basically all prop driven and he would do smashed watermelons was one of his famous bits and he let his he licensed his brother to do the act and his brother looked a lot like him as well and and the brother went on maybe even as jimmy gallagher or i'm not quite sure what but became very successful and then gallagher says i want you to stop doing it now and then they've had a huge falling out because i'm not going to i'm the real gallagher you know yeah a bit like noel and liam maybe the name is cursed so god that's i mean i i feel as

if i've almost certainly asked you before but how do you stop yourself getting really depressed depressed when you're doing stories like this where do you find the hope in them or do you not is that not something you have to think about it's very odd but somehow or is it because you're an emotionless robot i don't think it's that i think what it is the people that we tend to film with have some spark to them and actually some sort of dark glamour even in the world of heroin and don't get me wrong heroin is an awful awful drug and it's destructive and it destroys lives and it destroys families but there's nothing in this world that is completely and wholly negative you know in other words there has to be some element of seduction some

attraction there otherwise no one would do anything bad and with heroin there's a sort of outlaw glamour that goes with it a kind of exciting bonnie and clyde lifestyle and the people very often are rather attractive kind of piratical ke, Keith Richards-esque figures, you know. They are on the limb kind of leading lives of passionate intensity and most of them are not just taking heroin, they're either dealing it or have dealt it or have trafficked it and they're in this sort of world in which it's anti-bourgeois, leading a life without consequences. Usually they've got kids that have been taken into care, which is clearly horrible and massively destructive.

But it's hard to put into words, but there's a certain subversive, some kind of weird transgressive charm. Transgressive, right. I mean, those are the exciting ones i would imagine the vast majority of people who are struggling are just sort of having a pathetic time of it really also i like to think that the other way of looking at it is that you're talking about people who in the act of connecting with you are reaching out for some kind of hope and they see you as a little bit of a lifeline i mean that's not the whole story because there's another part of them that may

even romanticize their own bad choices and want them memorialized in a documentary right that's there but there's another sense in which they may see you as a redemptive kind of lifeline and that they want to they want help coming out as addicts in some cases they want help connecting with someone who's outside their user drug user circle and this goes across the board because i'm also you know in the other stories there was a prostitute who had a pimp who we filmed with quite a bit and you had the sense that she was just grateful to speak to someone who represented the square world and connect with that a bit and i feel like as much as i have a slightly maybe unhealthy fascination with the macabre qualities of the of the demi-mond i also genuinely think

there's and it's not it's not necessarily why i do it but i think it's perhaps why i'm okay doing it is that you're connecting with someone who is kind of reaching towards the light in some way does that make sense yeah i made it sound quite good then before it sounded bad right first of all you started off saying more or less they're all like johnny depp and they're exciting and it's fun everyone should be on heroin everyone should at least try it and then i because it'll be fine and then you thought that dog didn't hunt so then it became actually i'm like a therapist actually i'm i'm like jesus and i'm the only person that is in any way providing any excitement i was like you know i was saying that they're they're right role models

and we should all be bad at this because why would you be a square man? You sit square in your boxes, man. And then it became, but I like to connect with the people because I am light and life to them as a sort of therapist. You're a therapist. I thought you were turning into Herzog. I don't know what I was. Yeah, I was trying to be a therapist. so no i didn't take heroin did it cross my mind very very fleetingly um it always crosses my mind when i'm doing an extreme story you know because going back to weird weekends it was always about

participation and i remember when we did the porn episode and i thought if i really if i was a real documentary maverick i would actually have sex on camera probably but you must have thought that through and realized that that would compromise you in so many other ways that it wasn't worth it well what i thought was actually that's quite an ugly thing both morally and and literally like to see that it's just repulsive on several levels isn't it when you think it through quite quickly you realise well yes there's

an element of cowardice involved in that decision they would have pixelated you I don't want to be embarrassed it's not the ugliness of the actual testicles the ball sack the glands the shaft I mean it's not that specifically the gleaming shaft the it's not the they call it the brown it was a horrible term for your your bum not your brown

asterisk it's not like that but it's more just the image even if you pixelated everything you're still seeing a pasty geeky bespectacled man on top of a vulnerable probably very damaged porn performer female i mean no one that's awful why are we even that's the way the modern world works man people love it robbie williams said that to me though oddly enough what that you shouldn't he said i can't really do the the when i met him i've only met once he said oh i like your stuff i just i just saw the porn one this was literally about 17 years ago and he said but why why didn't you um have sex right why didn't you go all the way you know and have sex with someone on camera because as you know if you've seen the film that episode of

weird weekends i dress up as a park ranger and i'm in a gay porn film in a non-sex role and i also strip naked and get my polaroid taken and we pixelate the shot of um me standing naked but i am properly naked and then i get an offer i get a genuine offer of a role in a sex film that's a rape fantasy film called forced entry that's sort of the oh yes who that was the black yeah a kind of creepy off the wall um director who wants he likes shaking things up and he goes geraldo rivera would do that man morally safer would you start naming american journal tv journalists no way who would have taken a role in it you you know, as having sex in a porn film? So Robbie Williams thought I should have done it.

I don't know if he just thought he was saying that. Well, there would be a lot of people online that would like to see that. There's probably a whole sub-genre of... I'm still embarrassed about... There's a photo of me naked but for a feather boa. Oh, I remember that in the time out. Yeah, I'm still embarrassed about that one. That's not too bad, that photo. That's easily...

That's still online though, right? It makes me cringe. Yeah, you can find it. You look a That's not too bad, that photo. That's easily, that's still online though, right? It makes me cringe. Yeah, you can find it. You look a bit goofy. I mean, you look as if... You just said it wasn't too bad and now it's goofy. Goofy's not too bad. I've been in way worse photos.

I mean, maybe not naked, but... Because even in the darkest abyss... Maybe that is... That's getting close to her talk. I liked your one I thought about your when you have the mind of a wolverine

a wolverine wolverine why don't chimpanzees ride horses horse I don't know how we would say horses horses

horses horses why don't chimpanzees ride horses? Horses. Why don't chimpanzees ride horses? Horses. Why don't chimpanzees ride wolverines? Wolverines.

Have you come across Herzog? I did. I had a lunch with Herzog. No, dinner with Herzog when I was in LA. Did you, recently? No, it was about, it was when I was living there, which was about three years ago. A friend of mine called Zach Penn, who's a screenwriter,

and he's also directed a couple of mockumentaries. And he, I don't know how he knows Herzog, but he knows him. And he put Herzog in one of his films as an actor and he had a dinner and we went around and had dinner with herzog how was that it was great i asked him about because i've seen loads of his docs i asked him about one in which he goes to an island a volcanic island that's in which they're about to have a volcanic eruption and it's been evacuated and they and in classic Herzogian fashion he decides to go there even with the volcano about to go off and interview the three or four people who are still there who've decided to stay even

though they'll be covered in lava right and his he described he said and my cameraman said to him going in and out of the accent his cameraman said to him well what are we going to do if it actually erupts while we're there and Herzog said we will be airborne that was his

so he's got like his little trove of anecdotes like that and he was so he's quite fun on on that i mean that was he was quite deaf was the other thing and i remember saying like verna verna like literally be at the table verna and he what he wouldn't it was like he was getting a bit embarrassing like everyone else sort of at the table was aware that i was trying to get his attention were you in a loud restaurant no we were just at zach penn's house but then when i said um werner he turned

around i think he's just used to people calling him werner ah okay so he actually answers to that better not then um and you recently met david attenborough i did david i've had quite racking up all the great documentaries i've had a kind of um a slightly odd thing where I did an interview with David Attenborough two weeks ago for the Radio Times. And then literally on Sunday, I interviewed Nick Broomfield. Right. Because he was the man when we were growing up. I don't even know if I knew who he was in my teens. Did you?

In my late teens. Yeah. Did you? The first I heard of him was 93 when I was living in New York when Alien Wuornos, Selling of a Serial Killer, came out. Was he on your radar before that? I think so, because he did the one with the South African... Yeah, I didn't know about that one at that time.

What was the name of the guy? It's called Eugene Terblanche. There you go, Terblanche. And he's called The Leader, His Driver and The Driver's Wife. There you go. So I remember that was a, His Driver and The Driver's Wife. There you go. So I remember that was a big deal. Really? On Channel 4 or something? Yeah.

So he was an interesting fellow to talk to, I'm sure. He was great. And, you know, he's got a reputation for being occasionally a difficult interviewee. And I've been told that by one or two people. But, in fact, I found him very charming. He doesn't play the show business game, but he's got some funny stories. I remember that my opening question was, you know, you've made many different kinds of films in different modes, but there is a thing you are known for, a very quintessential kind of Nick Broomfield approach to filmmaking.

How would you characterize it? And he was like, well, you know, I don't really think of my films in that way. I just see films as problems to be solved. And I was like, okay. I mean, in a way you could say it was a shitty question for me to ask out of the gate. Because I'm sort of saying like, do my job for me.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, what's that? Who are you? I just thought it would be interesting to see how he characterized his sense of who he was professionally in a you know what i mean like i was just curious to see whether he would be able to say well you know i've there's certain approach that i've pioneered which is first person documentary gonzo journalism in which i'm a protagonist in the stories that i attempt to tell right you know what i mean yeah and to get that kind of wikipedia headline from him i thought rather than me doing

it i'd rather hear him do it yeah yeah yeah but he also doesn't want to be wikipedia and actually fair enough is that how you would answer that question then if you for him no for you no no for me i would say uh i would say something slightly different i mean i i think i'm what's the term ingratiating enough and i say don't say that necessarily as a positive that i would i would sort of step up and say well i guess people see me as a kind of slightly fish out of water journalist who gets into scrapes attempting to tell the story i'm a presenter who likes to get involved in my stories you know something like that yeah yeah i'd be more i mean

i'm happy to step up and be the cliche hello my friend it's good to see you again i've got to say you're looking great i love what you've done with your nipples and your knees and your shiny bald plates. So earlier this year, 2017, it seemed like everyone was obsessed, certainly in the podcast world with s town so documentary that came out of the this american life stable presented by brian reed there was a period when everyone was listening to it where you couldn't discuss it because people would go spoilers right spoilers and that's do you ever say that no i don't because i don't care no i just think my it'll be fine it's not going to ruin totally ruin my enjoyment of a thing if i know vaguely what's going to happen yeah there are

times when it takes the edge off the fun but really if the thing is fundamentally worthwhile people say before they said spoiler alert because that's's a 10 year. It was just, oh, don't ruin the ending. Yes, don't ruin the ending. Oh, no, I haven't seen it. Don't ruin the ending. Oh, you ruined the ending. That's the thing. Don't ruin the ending.

I want to go back to, I'm going to start a campaign to bring back the phrases that predate the phrases we use now. The snappy ones, the more ungainly. Yeah, the ungainly but charming, old-fangled. Yeah, 1.0. Like, what would the others be? Well, like, game changer. What would be the... What did people say?

It's a game changer. It's a whole new way of doing things. It's an absolutely new way of doing things. It's a completely new way of doing things. It's a completely new way of doing things. I was talking to Bill last night. He said it was a completely new way of doing things. He told me, have you seen it? It's an absolutely new way of doing things.

Guys, guys, check this out. This is an absolutely new way of doing things. Why is everyone using that phrase? I heard Bill using that phrase. Please, would you stop saying it's an absolutely new way of doing things why can't we go back to saying it's an original solution to a very old problem well i i don't think i think it probably was a snappier phrase than new way of doing things but the other one i was thinking about was uh narrative well that's a depends on your narrative they've got this whole

narrative we've got to change the narrative and i think um it's that's replaced among other phrases version of events hasn't it well that's your narrative uh-huh so your narrative is yeah that's your version of the story narrative that you're a struggling comedian that's holding you back you've got to change that narrative. Version of events? I don't know, maybe not. But is there not... Narrative is so ubiquitous.

Is there not something implied in the word narrative used in that context that is a new idea? No. No. No. No. I don't think so. It's always been around.

The phrase that is completely unavoidable at the moment is um to be fair really have you not noticed that to be fair to be fair god that might mean i'm using it because i hadn't picked up on that haven't people said that for millennia i don't feel like it have they no i don't think think so. I think it's in the last couple of years. To be fair. What about not being funny? Not being funny. I had a builder who said that. And you're like, God, Glenn always says not being funny.

And then you find yourself using it. That was around for a while. That was the to be fair of its day. And then that took a backseat. How would you use not being funny? When you say something bitchy i think isn't it not being funny but it wasn't very that meal was kind of bad no is that that doesn't sound not being funny not being funny but her face looks a bit weird isn't it i feel like it's it's just

laying some it's excusing yourself from a bitchy comment. You finally use the Urban Dictionary. So I use it quite a lot. Online? Oh, occasionally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To find out what the hell things mean. I do it with acronyms all the time.

It took me ages to figure out what SMH was. SMH. SMH. It shakes my head. Shakes my head. Shaking my head. Sh shakes my head. Shakes my head. Shaking my head. Shaking my head. Yeah, that's a new one on me.

We talked about that. One of the first things we did on the podcast was talking about. Yeah. Really? Really? That seems to have, I think we stamped it out. It's subsided, hasn't it? I feel a bit bad.

Everyone was having fun. Really? Really? What about super as a prefix? Oh, it was super annoying. It was super fun. It was super great. I'm going to go on Twitter right now and I'm going to see what people are saying.

And this is just the people I follow. So it's a skewed representation. This is the snowflake echo chamber libtard bubble. Do you follow a lot of alt-right? I tried, but it was too depressing. I mean, I end up muting my fellow libtards a lot of the time. I mute quite a lot of people. Is it okay to say libtards?

No, but it's what the alt-righters call us. Right. No, but it's what the alt-writers call us. Right. No, I just wondered. They're baiting the snowflakes by saying something that refers to or has the same root. I wonder how long it takes for something like, you know how words like bling becomes mainstream, like David Cameron would use it, or what's another? Chillax, or even jazz terms and hip-hop terms right do words like bitch does that then soon become and queer is sort of okay now kind of is it queer theory or oh yeah yeah queer studies or is it still okay because it that that world changes very fast genderqueer

i don't know well maybe it's one of those ones where i wouldn't use it but i don't think bitch is okay but it's not now but i've got the feeling because you know bitches become sort of gender neutral oh he's such a little bitch no but that's very problematic though i agree but in 20 years don't you think probably it's going to be normalized well what's a good example of something that is no longer that's been defanged problematic sort of um irradiated and made safe uh i don't know that's a great question asshole no that's still pretty strong isn't it fuck face always rude fuck fuck face no i mean most things you can't really they get phased out they don't get liberal well yeah maybe you're right ho no oh that's no goodho. Is that even a phrase?

No. Should be. Maybe you're right. I'm going to reverse that. That doesn't work, does it? I had a theory that because it sounds like certain hip-hop bits of hip-hop ease. Like, you know, get your groove on. I don't know.

That's not even hip-hop. The only one I could think of is Bling, if I'm honest. Mm-hmm. I was watching... Swag. I was watching It'll Be right on the night the other day which is now hosted by griff reese jones okay still some funny stuff on that show i used to love that yeah i really did dennis norton is still alive is he and listens to mark maron's podcast

religiously i am reliably informed no way that's like his he's plugged into comedy through marin really yeah that's amazing quite sweet about that yeah i think he must live in america maybe uh-huh maybe he's just got family there i always liked him and and yeah it was an amazing show back in the day when the idea of things going wrong on tv or films was just unimaginable. It felt as if you were peeking behind the magician's coon. It really did. And it was so thrilling, wasn't it? It was intoxicating. Oh my god. And now you just can't even conceive

of what that would be like because That's a great recollection. That was like I mean, when you saw that It'll Be Alright on The Night Was On it was like kiddie crack, wasn't it? Yeah. I'd be hyperventilating with mirth and excitement. Right.

And you'd see moments in Blue Peter or whatever where Peter Purvis is saying bloody hell. Yeah, getting bitten by the dog or someone advertising a sweet and it comes out of his mouth. Oh, and news presenters getting it wrong or falling over. Yeah. Oh, my God. This is amazing. I can't believe they're showing this. It felt like illegal or something. And now, of course, it's so banal.

But I was amazed that watching the show the other night with Griff Rees-Jones presenting that there was still some pretty fucking funny stuff on there. A lot of funny things on QVC and places like that. You know, because obviously there's so much around now. It's just a question of finding it. But there's loads of stuff. I guess the cachet, as far as TV is concerned, is completely torpedoed by the internet because everything becomes an individual viral clip

if it's any way funny. So you've probably seen it already. But there were quite a few things I hadn't seen before. Anyway, I mentioned it only because in one of his links, and I use the term loosely, like, oh my God, I don't know who writes those links. Good luck to them. I'll say that again because it's too bitchy they're fucking awful they're so fucking shit maybe i won't say it

again because no i don't know i've retreated from it oh jesus someone what do you think that guy's gonna be listening in like it's like's like, I love Adam Buxton's podcast. There's a possibility. Oh, it's a new one. I'm going to listen to it. And then get to that and be like. He's talking, he's talking about Griff's show. We wrote the links on that.

Oh, cool. Oh, he liked it. But maybe he knows it's shit. Maybe he's fine. He must do. Oh my God, they're so bad. You've got to keep those. Because I've done so many things.

We've all done things that are shit. But I wouldn't like to hear people dragging them up again and talking about them and laughing about them. What's so shit? What's so shit about them? So I'm trying to think of a good example oh man um so i mean if he's going into a clip about news presenters screwing up and he'll be saying something like now in the world of news and current affairs often looking for a good... This is useless.

This is like my concession to the person who wrote the links, is I'm doing a terrible job. But it's hard to do that stuff, don't you think? Of course it's hard, of course it's hard, which is why it's unfair to trash them. Because it is hard, and you would think it would be easy, but no. Anyway, the reason I mentioned it'll be all right on the night was because in one of griff reese jones's links he used the phrase amazeballs in there right and so i thought oh okay there you go that's

the end of amazeballs. Joe does. I think he does. I think he said. That can't be right, can it? He may well think that, but he didn't, did he? I don't think. I mean, I think if he, because he reckons he used it like way back when we were on the radio, pre-overground amazeballs. Well, he should look into that.

He certainly coined the phrase idiot hole, but that's never gone overground. Idiot hole. Yeah. Yeah, no one uses that phrase. But it's a good phrase. It always used to make me laugh. So anyway, what we were going to talk about, though, before we got sidetracked there was S-Town.

Did you listen to the whole thing? Yeah. And did you enjoy it? I really enjoyed it. Yeah. I thought it was kind of amazing. I mean, it's beautifully crafted, written, amazing intimacy. Just clearly a lot of thought and work had gone into it.

But essentially it was more or less just a portrait of John B. Macklemore, this fellow from Woodstock, Alabama. So it turned out, yes. You could argue it promised to be a bit... It promised to be an expose of small-town corruption. Of which there was some. Was there? I think.

None that I can recall. Nothing categorical. And then it turned into a bit of a treasure hunt after the fellow killed himself. Yeah. And he was unbanked, so there was gold lying around. Yeah. Have you Googled his maze on Google Maps? I Googled.

Yes, I did. I wanted to see what he looked like yeah because he's got such an amazing voice and you just i couldn't quite conjure him up in my head and he turns out to be a sort of sexually ambiguous but rather charismatic figure and um talks a lot about his tattoos and his piercings. So I looked him up on Google Images. Can you do an impression of John B. McElmore? You have to get a phrase. Okay, I'll give you a phrase. Just say the phrase in a normal way.

All right. I was interested in the astrolabe, sundials, projective geometry, new age music, climate change, and how to solve Rubik's Cube. There it is written down. I was interested in the astrolabe, sundials, projective geometry, new age music, climate change, and how to solve Rubik's Cube. That's just me doing a southern accent. Yeah, that was too... I can't do it it you haven't got the sibilance what is it he had something that was it was a very musical yeah it was a kind of sing

song quality something that's good i was interested in the astrolabe sundials projective geometry new age music climate change and how to solve rubik's cube you know and it would kind, climate change, and how to solve Rubik's Cube. You know, and it would kind of go. Climate change. Climate change. Climate change. It's a little bit like a cross between Mr. Garrison and Mr. Mackey. Yeah, that's good. From South Park.

I mean, and he'd do the thing where he would laugh almost in derision. Kind of like, who's going to get you first? Cancer or Harry or Jim J? Shitting on your face. Yeah, yeah that's right you kind of had that exactly that that kind of laughing of a macabre contempt for life a bit like bill hicks he reminded me of sometimes his delivery not the not the accent necessarily it's kind of like a shit show where you're the main exhibit and you're going to choke on your own vomit. It's quite hard.

It's hard, isn't it? The Arctic ice is going to be pretty much gone in a year and no one really seems to care about it. It's hard. But why would you even care about that? I mean, it's just eternity and you being tortured to death by a thousand different kinds of species gone rogue.

That's the vibe vibe isn't it yeah exactly it's like people are people are so fucking cynical and corrupt that it's it's a scabrous scathing contempt for humanity isn't it here's a little clip of actual john you're gonna use our best bits yeah Yeah, yeah. It's borderline embarrassing when you get it wrong. Absolutely happened in this town. There's just too much little crap for something

not to have happened. And I'm about had enough of shit town and the things that goes on. He's even more hillbilly than her. I just had about enough about shit town and the things that goes on. I mean, the music of his voice was a big part of what made that whole thing work, wasn't it? Absolutely.

And his total sort of emotional availability, his absolute thirst for whether it was a kind of intelligent interlocutor, but also a sense of being memorialized. You know what I mean? I think people talked about invasion of privacy what's the name of the reporter brian reed brian reed got a bit of flack for allegedly being intrusive and you know that it was a non-consensual project in a sense because actually uh there's a lot of material in it that because he died, he didn't know that that was going to turn out the way. Details about his lifestyle and his homosexuality and things like that. Yeah, specifically that. But just the level of forensic inquiry,

most glaringly details about his sex life. There's a sort of, I mean, this may be shaky ground, but a kind of implied consent in the just the sheer sense of permission that he projected like that he was loving having a chance to share his views share his world just to be listened to in that way yes exactly and then pulling brian reed further into the whole world and doing things like showing him the suicide note on his computer and then only objecting in a kind of playful way when Brian Reid started reading parts of it out or something.

Right. And saying, oh, you're not supposed to read it out. I just showed it to you. That's not, you know, you can't use that. Okay, let's put that away now right and then because i i feel as if i know quite a few people i was talking to adam curtis on this podcast a while ago and he was describing people with a very bleak world view a very pessimistic view of where we're headed as a species right as odierists or people who were

wringing their hands over climate change he wasn't saying that oh we've got nothing to worry about that's not what adam curtis was saying but he was saying that the overwhelming pessimism which you get from some people of like we are fucked you know what i'm talking about yeah he was calling that um odierism okay and kind of characterizing that as a as an affectation of a certain type of person right and you definitely and and john b macklemore in s town certainly fits into that yeah totally yes you know going online and and researching exhaustively these disturbing statistics about climate change and about all sorts of intergovernmental corruption and scandals and catastrophism is another word for it right and

also reminiscent of i don't know if you ever saw collapsed chris smith's documentary i didn't it's worth watching and michael rupert the main character is absolutely in the same is a researcher who specializes in kind of catastrophist thinking and who's figured out that humanity is destined for a mass die-off in the next couple of decades oh yeah it's great doc if you ever get the chance well i think i probably avoided it because i wasn't in the mood for a mass die-off in the next couple of decades uh but he's presented he's not presented as a totally plausible expert he's presented as someone who's it's a portrait of this person of an eccentric guy okay who who you can't quite figure

out you have an instinct that perhaps it can't all be true but you're not you can't really see the joins well that's always the fascinating thing about people like that isn't it because part of you has to consider the possibility that they may be right and that it is just part of the human condition that we live in denial of these kinds of things and that we tell ourselves that that person is a catastrophist or an odierist or a pessimist of some kind in as far as s town is concerned the way they did that was to tie it all up by suggesting that he'd been poisoned by the mercury he was using I found that fairly plausible

didn't you? I did but then I found myself feeling guilty wanting to believe that a little too much because it enabled me to discount a lot of the depressing stuff that Macklemore was obsessed by do you know what i'm

saying yeah yes it's just great storytelling i think it's amazing that i didn't feel cheated given that it was as you said in the end a kind of portrait of a very intriguing character but not they didn't have a sort of wider point and they were great peripheral characters as well you know all the people around there was the fellow in the background who had been shot in the head or something yes you felt like they had to introduce him because he kind of trodden on all over their interview his interviews yeah he would be in the background and he'd be basically interjecting and punctuating yeah that's right oh yeah oh yeah. Oh, yeah. Just money. It's all about money. Oh, yeah.

You better believe it. Yep, money. Mm-hmm. Yep. The scene that stayed with me for some reason was the one at the tattoo parlor. Yeah. Do you remember that?

Early on. Early on. It might be like the end of the second one. And it just felt like, oh, wow, he's in a small town tattoo parlor and and everyone seemed to be kind of getting drunk a little bit out of control and you just felt he and brian reed was absolutely it was kind of immersive journalism of a great kind yeah quite brave yeah and um very exposing and interesting and he was at that point still investigating the possibility that there had been

a murder and that one of these people who was actually in the bar at the time i think cabram burke was responsible for killing some guy that's right and people were sort of saying well why'd you go up and ask him he'll probably tell you and he was like well maybe not that's right and how did you get on with brian reed himself because he's definitely from that sort of this american life npr school of journalism do you remember there was a story on this american life at one point about how they were getting hate mail about the voices of some of their exactly i think i made a note of it this american life episode 545 if you don't have anything nice to say say it all in caps was the name of the and one of the segments on there it was described like this recently this american

life has been getting a lot of hate mail about the young women on our staff listeners complain about their vocal fry ira investigates the phenomenon and vocal fry is creaky voice creaky voice right and so it's something that yeah you get a lot with american women particularly and that's why this story focused on that and actually i i was a bit frustrated by it because i don't enjoy vocal fry no but a lot of men do it too to be fair well that's the thing they said to be fair to be fair yeah but that was to be that's fine to be fair what about triggering that that was to be fair. That's fine. To be fair. What about triggering? That's another one. Triggering.

What did people say before triggering? This may contain upsetting scenes. You know, it was like some people may be upset by this. Yeah. What did people say before intersectionality? Gay? No, but I mean. oh gay no but i mean no but you're like what i don't even know what that means it just means when one issue

crosses over with another issue and cross fertilization yeah cross pollination hybrid are affected by the same issue. I don't know. Anyway, so vocal fry. But on the This American Life piece, they very much spun it as sexism. That listeners were just excusing. And perhaps they were misogynistic. In fact, it sounds like they were.

A lot of them were, I think. Yeah. They just basically didn't enjoy hearing intelligent women on the radio. Going, uh... Going, um... Maggie claims that she hasn't been out of the house. Oh, this is very good. It's so hard to do, isn't it?

So hard. So guess what? I decided to investigate. But the first thing you do when you're doing a story on lobsters is get a lobster. That's quite good good but that's easier said than done and another thing is i've always been afraid of lobsters that's quite good and as you pointed out it's certainly not an exclusively female no it's not just female but the thing is you got it's married to a certain style it's not it's not

just a vocal style it's married to a certain kind of literal grammar you know a certain way of writing it's just sort of studied insouciance or maybe it's a genuine it's informality reified and made you know so instead of saying i have decided to bring you a report about lobsters you know it's like so there i was looking at a lobster you know like it's that bringing a formal conversational speech and saying that's how we're going to do this and the the implication being that this is somehow more straightforwardly honest yes and of course sometimes it can end up being more artificial and certainly to english ears because it's rampant on national public radio in america not just on this american life in a way that it really isn't here so to

english ears you're listening to the radio and thinking it's a bit like straighten your back and sit up at the table and just you know it's because you you just sort of, it feels weirdly like lack of effort or kind of a phony attempt to be super relaxed. Yeah. And the argument that they made when they talked about it on This American Life was, well, this is just how we speak. There's nothing we can do about it. But actually, I think that's a bit disingenuous. And the thing, the reason I brought it up was that Brian Reid does it. Yes.

In S-Town town he does it a lot and the thing is that he only does it when he's doing his scripted voiceover pieces right when you hear him interacting with people that's interesting in the field aha he doesn't choose he doesn't do it because as part of his regular conversational patterns it would be short does he not do it when he does he does it on the phone yes he does it on the phone a little bit but not not that much it's a different thing on the on the phone when he's being told the sad news about john macklemore killing himself he is upset and so that's a different thing but then there's a tone of sadness and emotionalism that creeps into the end of his sentences a lot when he's just doing his voiceover.

I've got some examples for you. Here we go. I want to play these to you because I don't know. I sort of got obsessed by it. And I'm not sure if I'm imagining it or not. Very mean spirited to focus on someone. No, it's a terrific. Anyone who hasn't heard it, spoiler alert.

It's an amazing podcast oh god yeah it's great and this is uh this is just sort of s level s town if you like here's some brian reed vocal fry emo fry i'm calling it years ago an antique clock restorer contacted me yeah contacted me an antique an antique clock restorer contacted me uh me. Brian, can you go for a take? It sounds great, but just try. Can you just try? There's something happening with your voice. I don't know what you mean.

I'll do it again. I'll do it again. Go for a take. It's just sounding a little bit almost sort of too relaxed. Uh-huh. Well, I do want it to sound relaxed. I'll try it again. I'll try it again.

Years ago, an antique clock restorer contacted me. Is that better? No, but try again. Because I wonder without vocal fry, you lose intimacy, right? That would be the idea. So what does he say? What is the actual line? Years ago, an antique clock restorer contacted me so here's what i would say years ago an antique clock restorer contacted me

that sounds fine that sounds like you're telling a story years ago an antique clock restorer contacted me it sounds more artificial though i guess years ago an antique clock restorer contacted me. It sounds more artificial, though, I guess. Years ago, an antique clock restorer contacted me. Years ago, an antique clock restorer contacted me. Contacted me. That's great, Louis. Can we do another one for safety? And try saying...

Try saying... I don't know. Is it contacted or contacted? I've forgotten. Do most people say contacted? People say... The stress is on the first syllable, isn't it? I can't remember. I thought thought let's get it both ways

just so we got it let's get let's get contacted as well as contacted and i'll tell you what you could put a bit of emotion in the just in the end there how do let's see how it sounds if you're if you've got a suggestion of sadness at the end of the line. Years ago, an antique clock restorer contacted me. I did some up speak. That's more like you're asking a question. I think we know that you have. What would be great is a suggestion of sadness. Okay, I think I can do that.

Years ago, an antique... Not again. Years ago, an antique clock restorer contacted me. That's good. No, that was too sad. No, that's good. I love it.

Here's another real Brian Reid one. And out of the back seat climbs Mary Grace with her cane, escorted by a middle-aged couple that I assume to be the cousins. I don't think that's even vocal fry. What is that? That's just upspeak, isn't it? Cousins?

It's like micro-upspeak. Cousins? It's like the end of the last syllable escorted by the cousins. Cousins? That would be good if he was a singer, though, I guess, wouldn't it?

Escorted by a middle-aged couple that I assume to be the cousins. Cousins. That would be good if he was a singer, though, I guess, wouldn't it? Escorted by a middle-aged couple that seem to be the cousins. I also wonder with, because obviously the Dean, the Dwyan, the maven of this world of NPR radio is Ira, Ira Glass. He does it, yeah. I'm presuming he writes his scripts. He writes the scripts and then he reads them out as if he's not reading them out. So, I was sitting with Adam Buxton and I was sitting in a room. And you know how it is when a guy's scratching his beard and he's sitting across from you, he's wearing a cap.

And he's got his hands on his jeans and they're too tight. And he's scratching his crotch and you feel sexually aroused. Well, this was kind of one of those occasions. And act one. it's all i don't know can you do him no i can't um but i would love to be able to oh i've really i really would because at one point i listened to so much this american life that i really thought fuck i'm i'm close to being able to completely get him one of his things is he doesn't pronounce his L's. No, well, he's got the same thing that Marin does.

So he's got a soft L. He says film. Film. Film. You know when you're watching a film? Have you ever had... If you're somebody that's ever had illegal trouble... Who are you doing?

Who are you doing? Who are you doing? Who are you doing? Who are you doing now? I'm trying to say it like he does. He's the words like milk, milk. Milk. Film. Illegal. I don't recognize that.

Illegal. He does. The L's, double L's. Double L's. Double L's? Illuminating. How does a double L sound different from a single L? Illuminating. He's fine with single L's.

He can't do double L's. He can say milk. Is that legal or illegal? Wait. This is an advert for Squarespace. Every time I visit your website, I see success. Yes, success. The way that you look at the world makes the world want to say yes. It looks very professional.

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Continue. Rose, come here. Ah, there you are. Hello, sweetie. Couldn't see you. That was Louis Theroux hope you enjoyed that ridiculous rambly chat and I would like to thank Louis

I'd also like to thank my friend Mark who let us record that conversation in his front room in his house in London one afternoon in June and then when we had finished talking we went and sat in Mark's garden and Mark's an old friend of me and Louis and so we sat there and had a few beers shot the breeze and it was a lovely evening uh thanks as well to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for production support and Matt Lamont for super edit skills thank you Matt very much now what else can

I tell you listeners not that much to report still waiting on the app at the moment. Stuff tends to move very slowly in the world of a dotard like myself. It's a little topical reference for you there. Whoa! It's not going to mean anything in the future, is it? But to put it in some kind of meaningful context, it's a word that cropped up in a relatively terrifying speech from the North Korean leader Kim Jong-un this week. And I mean, the terrifyingness of the speech was leavened somewhat by the word dotard when applied to Donald Trump. And I think it's safe to say that many of us were delighted by how appropriate this word was

and a word that we weren't familiar with before, many of us. It sounded as if it was like a made-up insult. Earlier on, I was talking with Louis about the word libtard, and this seems to be the same sort of thing applied to Donald Trump, a dotard. But no, it's a real word, meaning an old, weak or senile person. But the thing is, I don't think Kim Jong-un came up with the word dotard. I think he wrote something in, or his speechwriters wrote something in Korean. I think we have to thank whoever translated the speech for the word dotard. Why aren't they getting their props?

why aren't they getting their props? I really don't think that Kim Jong-un should be getting any props what with being bent on escalating the atmosphere of fear, tension and impending violence in the world. I mean, yes, he looks terrific. There's no argument from me there. He's got it all going on look-wise. But I don't think he deserves extra credit for his language skills. That's just a personal perspective. So there you go.

I got bitten. I mean, I'm starting to say this as if it's a story. It's not really. It's just something that occurred to me. Because my elbow, my right elbow is itchy. A week ago, though, exactly one week ago, I was in the woods on a camping trip in Dartmoor. I go out there. Well, we try and go out there about once a year, me and my friend and Garth Jennings, you know, Garth, friend of the podcast and a few other pals. And we string up our hammocks and spend a couple of nights under the stars in Dartmoor. It's beautiful. And we sit around the fire and tell stories and sing songs and set the world to rights. But on the very first night, I sat down in my camping chair and we were all having a bit of stew.

Our friend Tom had cooked up a delicious hearty stew on the campfire. Cooked up a delicious hearty stew on the campfire. And I was just about to tuck in when I felt a little tickling in my right sleeve. The sleeve of my fleece. And I thought, what the what the? Yeah, I shook my arm a little bit to try and dislodge it. But I assumed it was a ant. A ant. And I thought, well. I assumed it was a ant. A ant. I thought, well, I'll get out a ant.

I thought it was out. A minute or so later, I feel another tickle. Cat, what the, a ant? What are you doing there? Boy, he's tenacious, I thought. And then I started to reach up with my left hand up the sleeve of the fleece to try and sort out the situation. As I did so, I felt a sharp, hot needle of pain in close proximity to my elbow. And I got bit. It was really unpleasant. It's always such a shock when you get bitten by a

one of God's creatures I haven't had a sting for a while but if you can't see what stung you it's a little bit more alarming so I was like what the heck is up there so I withdrew my hand quickly and And I pinched the outside of the sleeve of the fleece to try and, you know, immobilize whatever was in there munching. And there was a significant lump in there. You know, not an ant, in other words. So then I sort of kept hold of this lump and turned the sleeve inside out and was able to see that it was a big old spider in there. Big bulbous abdomen and the abdomen was dark in colour with sort of blue markings and then I looked it up when I got home I looked up you know spiders that might bite you and it looked I tell you like a false widow spider to me that sounds bad and they came over to the UK relatively recently and there was a certain amount of interest in them a few news stories about them.

But actually, you know, it's no worse than being stung by a bee or something. But still it was a bit of a shock. And I didn't know that at the time and I started just imagining, my brain went crazy imagining, oh, this is a new species and it's all, it's climate chaos and deadly spiders are now happy to live in this country and they come over on a fruit crate i don't know what and now they've crawled up buckles his fleece and they're munching so i was a bit uh distracted by that and sure enough it was quite painful and it swelled up not alarmingly but a bit and then it's been sort of going through various stages throughout the week itching and the the pain has gradually ebbed away but i survived oh i'm a trooper anyway that's what I was doing this time last week.

Getting bitten by a false widow. Or whatever else it was, I don't know. Well, that's it for this week, I guess. Back next week with another. Until then, do take exceptionally good care. And remember that I love you. Bye! Harare. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Please like and subscribe.

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