THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.57 - HASSAN AKKAD

Episode Date: November 18, 2017

Adam talks with Hassan Akkad about why and how he came to leave Damascus and make the dangerous journey to seek refuge in Europe as an illegal immigrant.Information about the ‘TimePeace’ - a mobile app, which will connect asylum seekers and locals, to meet and share for free their skills, passions and interests, here: https://www.timepeaceapp.org/Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production support and Matt Lamont for additional editing.Music & jingles by Adam Buxton Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human folk Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan. Hey, how you doing listeners? Adam Buxton here. Now, I don't know if you can hear, but I am not in East Anglia.

Take a listen. Not many clues there. But I'm out in Los Angeles, America, to record a few podcasts and to gift the Bug Bowie special to a theatre full of homesick Brits and a few adventurous Americans tonight. I've been here a few days now, still a little bit jet-lagged, so I woke up early this morning and rather than record this intro in my little room that I'm renting in Franklin Village, little room that I'm renting in Franklin Village. I thought I would take the walk up the dusty track to the Griffith Park Observatory in the hills above. It's not too far from where I'm staying actually, it's just behind, so it's about a 45 minute walk. Griffith Park Observatory, of course,

famous Hollywood landmark. 63 years ago, James Dean was shuffling about up there as he filmed an iconic scene from Rebel Without a Cause. And since then, of course, many, many of my favourite films have used the observatory as a location. Who could forget The Rocketeer? Charlie's Angels, Full Throttle. Transformers. The Terminator. Terminator Salvation,

Terminator Genesis, La La Land, and of course, and most importantly, Sandy Wexler, starring Adam Sandler. Thanks very much, Ken Corder. Once you're at the top of the hill at the observatory, you can look out over the whole of Los Angeles. It's a spectacular view and see the city sprawling, shrouded in a haze of pollution and dreams. It's a very humbling sight. But right now where I am, it's totally deserted walking up this track. And it's totally deserted walking up this track. There's no one around at all. It's like one of the locations that they might have used in the old Star Trek TV series. You expect to see a young William Shatner jumping out from behind some scrub to have a fist fight with a bloke in a suit.

But it's lovely. I do like LA, but every time I come here, I hate the journey more and more. And there's always a point in that 11-hour flight from London when I'm just rocking back and forth in my seat like a mad guy, unable to get comfortable, scrolling joylessly through the entertainment system and thinking I am never ever going on a long distance flight again it's just not worth it and you know that's before you even get to LA and have to negotiate the

dehumanizing processing shed that is LAX airport I guess I wouldn't do too well as a refugee. He says, segwaying glibly into a short introduction to this week's podcast guest, Hassan Akkad. Now you may have seen Hassan on the 2016 BBC documentary Exodus, on the 2016 BBC documentary Exodus, Our Journey to Europe. And in that programme, they gave cameras to a handful of the million or so people who smuggled themselves into Europe during the peak of the immigration crisis in 2015, which at that point had been exacerbated by the conflict in Syria, where Hassan traveled from. Hassan was an asylum seeker, but of course there were many people who were economic migrants

just trying to find a better way of life in Europe, and there was, I guess, the odd Islamic state militant trying to pass as a refugee or a migrant. And the crisis, which of course hasn't ended, led to some European countries feeling overwhelmed and besieged by this influx of strangers. And we know that it played a part in Britain voting to leave Europe and it contributed to the deep divisions in British society that some of us had been happy to ignore before Brexit. And we don't go too deeply into the rights and wrongs of mass immigration in this conversation. Instead, you'll hear the fascinating story of why and how Hassan came to make the journey to Europe,

and you'll get a more intimate perspective on the immigration crisis as a whole. It's just one person's perspective, but it's an amazing story. And stay tuned at the end of the podcast for a little bit more information on the app that Hassan mentions towards the end of the chat, Timepiece, which as I speak is just weeks away from launching and which hopes to make it easier for refugees to integrate by exchanging skills and experience with anyone who'd like to help. If, like me, you've ever felt bad about not doing more to help refugees, then Time Peace, the app, might at least be a good place to start.

Anyway, right now, Hasan Akkad. Here we go. on that. Come on, let's chew the fat and have a ramble chat. Put on your conversation coat and find your talking hat. Yes, yes, yes. So it's been two years since you left? It's been... No, I left Syria in late 2012. It's been five years. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Can you remember the last day before you left Damascus that you had just a great day a really fun evening what was the last happy memory you have of being there the last happy memory of me being back home is actually way back I left Damascus it was before the revolution started and I remember sitting with my family around a dinner table my dad just came back from work my sisters came back from school. My mom just made this amazing Syrian feast. And we were having dinner and just talking about our days. And there was an amazing sense of normality, which I quite miss right now.

And what was your father's job out there? My dad, he had a pizza place. He used to make pizza. I was an English teacher. My brother was a banker. My sister used to work in sales. My two other an english teacher my brother was a banker my sister used to work in sales my two other sisters went to school they were still students and my mom didn't do anything she used to work in a bank but then she quit after she married my dad so you were kind

of a typical middle class family out there yeah very typical very middle class and i mean you're a filmmaker right now i am a filmmaker and photographer. Yeah. But you do spend a lot of time talking about your experience. Yeah. Since I arrived here. I arrived here, it will be two years in September. Since I arrived in England. And when I got here, I noticed that there was a lack of first-hand experience of what's it like to flee a war-torn country and do the journey through Europe.

So I noticed, and because I was a teacher back home and I've got the skill of addressing a crowd, I started speaking at pubs and churches and mosques and colleges and fundraisers. And it was, yeah, it went from one place to another. Literally, there was a time when I was doing a talk every day in London or around the country. And did you get that thing that a lot of performers get of starting to grow tired of your own stories? Absolutely. Yeah. It fed on my survival's guilt because I do have, I suffer from survival's guilt every day.

Every time I have a good time, I feel guilty because many of my friends, they've died and I'm here enjoying my time while they are still in prison or they're dead. So when I am on a stage and like I get a standing ovation sometime or when I have people coming and tell me, oh my God, you're great. You're amazing. So when I am on a stage and I get a standing ovation sometime or when I have people coming and tell me, oh my God, you're great, you're amazing, we love you, I feel bad. I don't feel good. I appreciate that they're reaching out to me and telling me that I did well.

But deep down, I feel guilty for that. I mean, obviously it's a subject that grips people across the world. It's really one of the most important things going on today. And no one has a clear sense of how things will develop and what this means for our society and how, you know, in 20 years' time, will we look back at this time and shake our heads and think, boy, we shouldn't have worried about that stuff and we should have worried more about this stuff and it'll be so clear to us. But right now, everything seems totally up in the air.

It's a really strange time. And how have you, overall, what's it been like for you being over here? And what kind of reactions have you got from people? Have they been largely positive? People have been largely positive, for a fact, especially in London. Something I noticed firsthand, that there was a lot of misconceptions. I remember doing a talk at university and someone asked me,

why do Syrians have smartphones? And coming from a university student, I noticed that there is a lack of knowledge of people coming from outside of Europe, maybe. And I've noticed that someone has to fill that up. Someone has to come and not even necessarily talk about wars in the Middle East or like other parts of the world, but also talk about what was life. I really appreciate your question, how was like a normal life in Damascus like?

And that's what I've done. Like, let me tell you what Syria was before the war. Let me tell you what music used to listen to, Let me tell you what music you used to listen to, what films we used to watch, what we used to do in our free time and I'll do on weekends because that brings people together and it builds a bridge

because I once shared my playlist with like a group of people and I was doing a talk and they were like, oh, these are like my favorite songs. And immediately there was this contact, people connected, you know what I mean? Music and films and art and history yeah we are I mean you know obviously

people all over the globe are now so closely connected thanks to the internet yeah and our experiences are shared in so many ways but then in other ways we can't possibly imagine what it's like out there and it's not as if we can even choose to go and visit really no no it's difficult to imagine what it's like out there. And it's not as if we can even choose to go and visit, really. No, no, no. It's difficult to imagine what it's like to be here. I mean, Syria is probably the most documented crisis in the history, thanks to social media and internet and smartphones. But still, there was a lot of like, what's actually going on?

People did not know. People got lost. I, myself, I am lost. So to have someone to come and tell you what's it actually like to live in a police state and what's it like when you go out and you uh protest or you ask for your rights what what are the consequences what's it like to to leave your country to go on a dinghy how do you? What do you pack? What do you say to your family? All questions I'm going to be asking you. As you say, you know, it's hard to keep up with it. I think probably very few people have a clear sense of what's going on and what the timeline has been.

There are so many interweaving narratives that have brought us to this point in the Middle East. point in the middle east what was your i mean you've already said you know you had in some ways quite a normal life that us brits can relate to middle class life out there but then how was life different for you day to day what were the things that were jarringly different to a typical day here in the uk for example because we come from very family-oriented cultures, the family is a very important element in your life. Like we don't just go in Christmas to see our parents. We see them every day and it's because Damascus is such a quite tight culture. You literally know everyone. Like as I'm walking in the streets of Damascus, I still remember every one minute I meet someone I know and we just have a chat and we talk about our days. How big is Damascus? Damascus is, I don't have, I mean, I don't know exactly how big it is,

but I still remember like it would take me like an hour to drive around, like more than like two hours maybe to drive around the city. It's the capital. It's the oldest city in the world. It's got so much culture, so much history. The old city of Damascus has got a wall around it and it's still intact. It's like very very old and uh lots of foreigners lots of tourists used to come and stay there because they get in they

fall in love with the city and that's what I miss I do miss the you know when things are formed like how you are like uh used to things whether it's people or places or restaurants or even like the weather i'm used to this this is like um it's formality of it but then that's it's a bit difficult when you are plucked out of that and put in somewhere completely different because the uk is completely different to syria but it's it takes time it's been two years but i'm still integrating yes i mean i already speak english and i'm already liberal and i'm already educated and but still it takes time. It's been two years, but I'm still integrating. Yes. I mean, I already speak English and I'm already liberal and I'm already educated. But still, it takes time to integrate. Uh-huh.

Of course. Damascus, ISIS were never in Damascus, were they? Countryside. So I'm going to give you an example, all right? Yeah. Say, for example, Marlebone, all right? Yeah. That's a government-held area.

um, Marlebone. All right. Yeah. That's a government held area. You would have Brixton, for example, and Ealing and Oaksbridge would be like free Syrian army. And you would have Hackney,

uh, ISIS. This is the best way that I can, because if you've just tuned in, this isn't actually what's happening. No, it's not happening in London. So,

yeah. I mean, from my, let me also give you like an idea. In the middle of Damascus, there is a mountain that overlooks the whole city. We call it like the shield of Damascus. It's called Qasun Mountain. And I still remember before the war, we would drive up the mountain, watch the sunset. And it's just amazing hearing the call of prayer coming from all the mosques. And there's this amazing chaos that you can see from the top of the mountain.

My flat, where I used to live, the balcony, overlooks the whole city and it overlooks the mountain. From my balcony, I still remember that when the rebels started taking control of parts of the countryside of Damascus, I could see rocket launchers launching rockets and shells from the mountain and I see them landing somewhere. And I knew by every bombing there's someone dying I knew that by every bombing there's someone's house someone's memories and dreams are being vanished what year is that then that was 2011 late 2011 how did that feel

watching that realizing that war was coming to you it's it's appalling and it's it's really depressing I still can't get over it because we have to also acknowledge the fact that this wasn't a war with an external force this is us fighting each other this is our army i mean irrespective of what people think politically of what's going on in syria for me this is like our army bombing our cities and this is the army that we've paid money for and we built and we a lot of people like go to the army mandatory military service to see that to see to see to witness where you grew up and where like your memories and your dreams to see that being destroyed on a daily basis and people's lives are being lost on a daily basis it's depressing I didn't feel safe anymore I was like any day by mistake, a rocket could hit my balcony and I could be gone.

So you lose that whole sense of safety and you flee. And you and your family and your friends, where were your sympathies politically? Politically, everyone from my friends, most of them, we were against the regime. We are still against the Assad regime. My parents, my siblings, they were against the regime. Some of my uncles and my cousins, no, they still are pro-Assad. And they, what was their argument? They were saying,

he's not so bad, at least he's... Exactly. Their argument is like, look what happened in Libya. Their argument is, all right, we know that, we know that the Assad regime

for the last four decades has been committing atrocities in Syria, doing awful things it's like a dictatorship it's like north korea we know that's happening but at least he's keeping us safe but that's a selfish argument you know i mean because all right you're safe and you're making money i was i was 22 i was 22 years old making around 2 000 pounds in damascus which is like a fortune but But I'm like the 1%. There are a lot of people

who used to eat from the rubbish bins. There are a lot of people who literally couldn't make ends meet. They were barely surviving. And there were a lot of people vanishing. There was this thing, when we say that someone said something against the government,

they literally vanished. They're gone. You never hear of them again. So no, I i want to challenge that i want to go on the streets and i want to ask for my rights like when i went on my first protest i literally said i chanted freedom equality liberty democracy the things that are taken for granted here but they don't exist in syria literally they until now they don't exist and that. Literally, until now, they don't exist. And that's what we asked for. You talked about the idea of people being disappeared if they dissented or said anything negative about the Assad regime. So how did you feel then going on a protest?

How did that work? Didn't you think... The first protest, yeah. Like when I was in the protest and we were walking, I still remember in the old city in Hamidiyah, it's a very famous souk, it's called Hamidiyah souk, everyone knows it. We were walking in that souk and I was looking at people around me and we were all like chanting together, freedom, liberty, equality. And for the first time I felt like I heard my voice, for the first time I've heard like I have a voice, I it I can hear my voice I exist I literally felt my existence in that protest and I was so happy I've never been happier I am a human I'm asking for my

rights but the the longest protests in downtown Damascus would last like 15 minutes and then you have buses of secret service coming to arrest everybody so So the longest protest is like 10, 15 minutes and then you have to run for your life. You run for your life because if you get arrested... You get arrested, it's not good news. Presumably people you knew did get arrested. I got arrested myself. Yeah.

After that first protest, like two months or three months later, we organized a protest in the other side of Damascus. We organized it on Facebook, by the way, like Facebook groups. We set up like with fake names, we set up a location, we go and we protest. But things didn't go so well. The police knew about it. And as soon as we started, they surrounded us. It was like 300 of us, but a lot of people managed to escape.

Eight people and myself, we got arrested in the protest. And we were rushed. We were... The first half an hour was just beating the hell out of you. They were beating the hell out of us using iron poles. And that's at the location of the protest? That's the location of the protest, yeah. That's the government secret police.

Yeah. Fully armed. And they have iron poles. They caught us, they surrounded us, and they, yeah, we were being beaten for like half an hour. And did they say anything while they're doing it? Yes. Did they say, hey?

Yeah, I still remember. What they were saying is like, you want freedom, right? Dish. You're working for the Israelis, right? Dish. This is what you get for working for America. Dish. You are a traitor. Dish. And you're like, the Israelis, right? Dish. This is what you get for working for America. Dish. You are a traitor.

Dish. And you're like, why am I? That's the thing with the dictatorship mentalities is that if you are seeking to fix your country, if you're seeking to get freedom, you are immediately a traitor, an enemy. You're working for the Israelis. You're working for the Americans.

And I'm like, I've never been to America. I can technically never go to Israel, but I'm being beaten up, being accused of working with them. I'm just 24 years old who wants to change the political system in this country. That was my crime. And then you get put in a van? We got beaten up very badly. Both of my arms were broken as we were in that time, that time during that beating session. They broke my ribs, and like like my face was swollen and they put eight of us in a in a boot of a four-wheel car like literally stacked us on top of each other and they rushed boot yeah yeah in the boot of a four-wheeler an suv suv yeah so they stacked us on top of each other and then rushed us to, it's called 215. It's like military secret police.

Damascus, it's like all of Syria. It's like there are always secret police stations because they run the country technically. So they rushed us to that one. And yeah, it stripped us out of our clothes and out of our humanity. You literally, you don't feel human anymore. Once you get over the sense of shock, you immediately feel, you don't feel like anymore. Once you get over the sense of shock, you immediately feel, you don't feel like a human anymore.

You feel subhuman because you are treated like, we were given numbers. So I don't even, I don't remember what my number was, but I was like maybe number 14. So I was no longer Hassan Akkad. I was 14. I was naked and I was being referred to as a number. And then we got thrown in a cell, prison cell.

And what are you thinking? Are you thinking, okay, they're going to keep me here for a while. But practically speaking. Practically speaking, I'm thinking I'm going to, because all we heard growing up is that people disappear when they go against the government. Practically speaking, I thought that I'm never going to see daylight anymore. And the cell right next to mine, there were two men who were there for 23 years. So technically in my mind, I'm like, to see daylight anymore. And the cell right next to mine,

there were two men who were there for 23 years. So technically, in my mind, I'm like, that's it. Life is over. But were you panicking? I mean, I can't imagine. I was destroyed, Adam. It's worse than death. It's worse than immediate death.

So if I got shot in that protest, you know, it's gone. But that's like a very slow method of torture. Because A, you don't know if you're ever going to be released. B, my parents, whom I really care about, my family, they never get told where I am. So I know, technically, I know where I am. I know I'm still alive. But my parents, they probably think I'm dead.

And that also another way of mental torture. And was there anyone with you who had been through the experience before no no no we're all we're all our generation basically like we're all youngsters we're like 23 24 we're fresh graduates we are not used to this we see it in films i saw it in films that talk about nazi germany and then suddenly we are experiencing it for real and you literally for the for the first 48 hours you cannot process it and you you seem to reject that you are in that place because it is so horrendous your mind cannot accept it and what about your injuries was anyone seeing to those no no one my arms got really swollen My leg, I got electrocuted in my leg. They electrocuted me in my leg. So it was...

With like a prod or something? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like internal bleeding and my ribs were broken. So three days later, they put a bin bag over my head and they took me to a, also a police hospital where they... a police hospital where they uh so get this all right so it's not just the jailer it's not just the police even the doctors i couldn't see anything but even the doctor started beating me on my broken arms oh so you're like you would try to accept it from a police officer yeah but from a doctor who's supposed to be treating me he wanted to x-ray my arm and i couldn't see i don't know and i'm in shock i don't know where i am i lost sense of place and time so he was like just put it here and then he beat me on it smashed it again and then they were like oh we need to see your leg and i can't again i can't see anything i can only hear voices yeah and then they he rolled my jeans up and and he was like oh my god no no no this needs to get amputated

and he was like uh how do you something get? Get the amputation tools. Oh man, that's not what you want to hear. And I'm in my mind, I was, I used to run marathons. Forrest Gump was my favorite film. I'm a runner. And all I can remember,

it was like me begging. I was like, let's just stop and talk about this. And then he was like, no, no, no, this needs to be removed. It's gone. And I started like,

just with my broken arms, just beating everything around me and trying to stop this, trying to stop this from happening. And then, and they were like, no, no, no, this needs to be removed. It's gone. And I started like just with my broken arms, just beating everything around me and trying to stop this, trying to stop this from happening. And then, and they were like, ho, ho, ho, we're joking. No, it's fine. We're just going to give you some painkillers.

Oh, it's a classic joke. And I'm like, thanks. Oh my God. I was only in that prison cell for two weeks, by the way. But I lost 14 kilos. And I left. The doctor who operated on my leg said, if you had stayed there for another week

You would have lost your leg So when you got out Yeah Straight to hospital Straight to hospital Straight to proper hospital Remove the cast Proper casts

Surgery And what did the doctors at that hospital say? They can't say anything Right You can see that their hearts are weeping for you Yeah, yeah But they are worried They say a word and someone would hear them And then they would end up in that person's hell Right, so you don't weeping for you. Yeah, yeah. But they are worried. They say award and someone would hear them

and then they would end up in that prison cell. Right, so you don't get into it with them. Yeah, no. It's fear. Fear everywhere. And that's their way. I was admitted in that prison cell and they released me as a sample.

And it's like a lesson. You go in a protest, this is what's going to happen to you. Three months later, I got in prison again. Yeah. what's gonna happen to you three months later i got in prison again yeah At what point then did things start to get so bad that you felt that you had to leave? So after the second time I was taken to prison, they were like, come for an investigation, and they threw me in solitary confinement for two weeks. And then they banned me from teaching,

and they made me sign documents that I am now an informant working for the government, and I have to report everything I see. And I am banned from leaving the country without permission. And I just couldn't live anymore. I was afraid of my own bed. I was scared. Presumably you weren't up for fulfilling your role as an informant. No, absolutely not. I would never do that. And, uh,

I went and I got permission to go. I said I want to travel for 24 hours to attend a friend's wedding and come back. They were like, okay, you're allowed 24 hours. I left. I never been back and I'm now blacklisted. I can never go back. And what was the What was the process Of you actually leaving And what did you say

To your family Or did you say anything To your family I did say to my family I'm gone Even my family They were like You have to leave

My mom and dad By then They've already gone through a lot My mom Bless her She almost died In the hospital When I was taken

The second time So for them even They were like Go Because if you stayed It was going to get worse If I stayed I wouldn't have been here She almost died in the hospital when I was taken the second time. So for them, even they were like, go. Because if you stayed, it was going to get worse. If I stayed, I wouldn't have been here. I wouldn't have been alive for a fact. I would have been dead a long time ago.

And you have to, there's something that people need to understand. Is that literally there's nothing unique about my story. Like this is a story of thousands of people. Specifically young men. because it was young men mostly that protested it's not you know men that are it's mandatory for them to join the the military and fight and kill their own citizens their own like countrymen so that's why it was mostly young men fleeing syria right i mean it's such, it's so mind-boggling. What was the process of figuring out

how you were going to get away, where you were going to go? I left... I wanted to stay in the region because back then I still had hope that the crisis will be over soon. I thought... So you thought, I'll get out of Damascus.

I'll get out of Damascus. I want to stay in the region. I'll come back. It's going to be us who's going to rebuild the country. And I will stop. Where did you think you would go? I went to Lebanon for six months. We're very restricted.

Like Syrians, our travel options are very restricted. We need visas everywhere. So back then, now even like it's a lot harder than 2012. But back then I could go to Lebanon. I went there for six months. And from working as a teacher and having my own car and having my own flat to working at McDonald's. And there's nothing wrong with working at McDonald's.

But having left prison, it was really difficult to adapt. Yeah, sure. I left Lebanon. I went to Egypt for a month. Couldn't find a job. They offered me a job for $200. I left Egypt. I went to the UAE I went to Dubai I got a work permit for two years and even that like it's good that I got that but even like having an expiry date on my residency terrifies me freaks me out because like what if

it wasn't over where can I where am I gonna? My residency expired and the Syrian war is not over. So I flew back to Turkey. I was like, I'll do something in Turkey. I'll just start teaching English again. Couldn't do it. And then I just literally, like everyone else here, I was watching the telly and I start seeing people going on boats from Turkey to Greece.

And I was that desperate. I mean, I was out of options. There was no one else to go. I'm blacklisted in my own country and I can't go anywhere. So I was like, I'm just going to go on a boat. And I've never been to Europe. I don't know what Europe is like. I don't know how the people feel about refugees coming from the Middle East.

But I took the risk. I was like, it's my only option. I packed 27 years of my life in a rucksack. And did you tell your parents what you were going to do i didn't know i tell my dad but i can never tell my mom because you didn't want to worry them or because of course yeah they would get really worried i mean my dad said do it go follow your dream see what's going to happen you've tried it's not like you haven't tried the middle east you've tried it it didn't work go all right and then how does it work does

everybody know like where to go and which guy to see and how to get hooked up with a passage you go to ezmir in turkey and you see people smugglers in coffee shops and restaurants strolling down the street it was happening like crazy i was like what is this actually real and like you get offers you want to go on a yacht or you want to go on a dinghy or you want to go on a speedboat of course it sounds like it sounds like um going out and trying to buy dope exactly it sounded like like going on a like a like going on holiday what you want man i? I got dinghies. I got I've got dinghies I've got yachts. And there was like an offer like

if you've got a little child we charge a half price as if you're going to a museum. Yeah. Yeah we found the man

and he's charged us $1,100 each. I was leading a group of like 14 people friends and family and like people that were already in Turkey and like acquaintances and people I went to school with.

We hooked up on Facebook and we're like, let's go. We got taken to the boat, a dinghy, a nine meter squid, like nine meters, the length of it, the rubber boat. And the smugglers, because they're very greedy, they put 63 of us on a boat, including like 10 children and 13 women around that number. And I knew when I went on that boat, we were not going to make it. It was just, you could see it. Like it was physically impossible.

So yeah. What did you have with you? I took a watch that my dad bought me on my birthday. I took like my favorite shirt, took my favorite Nike trainers. I took like my favorite shirt took my favorite nike trainers i took like um towels plastic bags power bank headphones i took my uh gopro because i wanted to film everything took family pictures cigarettes uh and aftershave yeah of course you know if you are like running from you have to have an

aftershave if you're going on a dinghy yeah you're gonna be stinky that was your that was your big worry oh i'm gonna have terrible beer and um yeah and we were on that boat and 20 minutes from sailing uh water started seeping in and oh man and how did you did you have an idea of how long the crossing was supposed to be it was supposed to be so because

everything was shared on Facebook of like tips and maps and everything and you're crossing from crossing from Izmir

to Lesbos right yeah and yeah how long did you reckon that was supposed to take it will take two hours max

okay and there's guys rowing is it no no no. It's like a little engine. Okay. Yeah, yeah. And one of the people, like being smuggled,

so the smugglers don't go on the boat. But one of the yet-to-be refugees, he's running the engine. Oh, right, yeah. So they don't even go on the boat. Yeah, they don't even go on the boat. Okay, yeah. So 20 minutes out, it starts leaking. It starts leaking.

And you're thinking... People are panicking. And I'm thinking we're not gonna make it we're not gonna make it I I whatsapp my friend who lives in the States

I was like listen I'm on a boat is this in the night? no no it was daytime it was like it was in the it was like 5am

6 so it was just about sunrise yeah just before sunrise I sent her my location I dropped her pin on whatsapp and I was like we're here and we don't

I feel like we're not gonna make it so if you can call the coast guards just the boat was completely submerged in the water and we we jumped out of the boat we threw our bags away and that was hard to see my bag being drifting through the waves on the water because it was like just saying goodbye to 27 years of my life i packed everything that i everything that was valuable for me, all the physical things that are very valuable to me, to take them with me to my potential new home. Your aftershave. My fucking aftershave is gone.

Yeah, no, weird. And then what about the... Were there young children on the boat too? Yeah, there were around 10 kids under the age of 10. And did you all have life jackets? Some had life jackets, some had, what do you call them? The rings, rubber rings, yeah. It's an ugly scene because you could see,

like when the boat started going down, it's like seeing your own country sinking because there were two university professors on that boat. They were like mothers, they there were teachers, myself, my friend is an electrical engineer, there were kids, there was a pregnant woman, there was a belly dancer even. There were just so many stories and memories and dreams and futures. Syria was on that boat, all right?

And then you're witnessing, not only you witnessed your country being bombed to pieces now you're witnessing your country sinking in the unknown that's difficult to process as well so everyone is just sort of trying to stay afloat thinking okay fingers crossed the coast guard is going to come

and did they? they did after half an hour yeah the Turkish coast guard so we didn't get picked up by the Greeks because if we got picked up by the Greeks, we would have made it to Greece. But we got picked up by the Turks. So not only we lost our stuff and we witnessed that.

You're going right back where you started. We're going right back where we started from, going back to square one. So that was attempt number one. Attempt number one. And everyone was okay on that occasion? Just only the pregnant lady, she had a miscarriage oh no and like in the water yeah and yeah but no one sank no one died yeah and then how long after that was the second 48 hours later we were on the boat again but it was

40 of us and the water was crystal clear and it looked like we were going to make it the engine is running, it was a full moon everything is perfect but we got attacked by Greek marine forces there were three military men fully dressed in black and they were wearing skeleton masks and they were on an army boat behind our boat

breaking the engine and beating the people who were running the engine and they stole the fuel tank are running the engine and they stole the fuel tank and they left us and we had uh us the young men we got in the water and we swam and pushed the boat for seven hours until we got to lesbos oh my goodness yeah i like the fact that they've got to wear skeleton masks yeah yeah as if you need something more yeah sinister to terrify people to terrify people who are fleeing war. And they are...

They're Greek military? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They are military forces because... So they were trying to sort of cover up their military... No, no, no. They're trying to cover up... They're trying to stop people from coming.

That happened. That did happen. And there's footage of similar attempts on YouTube where literally they're trying to sink people down. Like puncture their boats and leave them in the Turkish water so they get picked up by the Turks

and get sent back yeah yeah yeah but they didn't come back and you made it we made it finally in Europe 7 hours 7 hours

swimming along yeah did you sort of do it in shifts no no no it was this amazing adrenaline rush we felt invincible and we're all did you sort of do it in shifts no no it was this amazing a drill in a rush we had we felt invincible and we're all like you know when you're like 25 26 you can do that shit

i'm pretty sure i couldn't have done that yeah yeah so finally in europe finally in europe yeah so and to summarize this to cut this down of of how the rest of the journey went on. We got to the island. We were there for three days. And then we got given something called Khartieh, like an official paper from the Greek government. We registered in Greece. And then we were bused to the ferries. And then we were ferried to mainland Greece in Athens.

And then we took buses to the northern borders of Greece with Macedonia. And then Macedonia, we were on a train from the southern border to the northern border. We were not allowed to leave at stations in Macedonia. And I still remember that we were reaching out with like empty bottles of waters to people outside at the station so they can fill them up for us and give them back to us. We were stuck like sardines in a train, not allowed to leave any station, we're not allowed water, not allowed anything. And we were like begging people

to fill bottles of water for us. And we're like, what have we done to do that? What have we done to get that treatment? What's our crime? It's weird though, isn't it? The way that the military will go out dressed in their scary masks and try and foil your attempts to get across there.

But then once you're there, you have to be processed. Yeah, because of the law. Every European country had signed the Geneva Convention. So by the law, they have to process us. And back then, Anglo-American opened the borders and people were rushing to get to their destinations. Yeah. What was the journey then from greece to the uk so i got to macedonia and then from macedonia we walked for like 20

hours into serbia from serbia we were smuggled through hungary because hungary is quite notorious for like and how they deal with refugees they force people to claim asylum in Hungary and they detain them now they're detaining people in containers in Hungary at the moment so we were smuggled through Hungary to avoid that and we got to Austria we got to Vienna and in Vienna people start dispersing because majority want to go to Germany

some want to go to Sweden these are like the favorite destinations Germany and Sweden some to the Netherlands and when you say in Vienna I want to go to England, they're like, good luck with that. Because they know how difficult it is to get to the UK. So what's the most difficult thing about it then? Is it how you're going to be received or is it?

No, it's not about being received. It's about how you're going to physically get there. Right, right. Because distance. Yeah, because distance also because the fact that the UK is an island and your way in is in a lorry. Right. And that's the only way in. And it's really like it's difficult to get in a lorry to the UK.

Yeah. So I made it to France, to Calais in the jungle. How long were you at the jungle? I was there for 60 days. 60 days? Yeah. With my cousin and my friend. And you could, I imagine, write a whole book about just 60 days in the jungle.

Oh, dear. That was the worst. Yeah. It was like no man's land. It was once it took us two hours to make an omelette on like a piece of iron. What were the other people who were there like when you arrived i would imagine there were a lot of people who were there for months and when we saw them we got even more depressed being like oh welcome to the jungle we've been here for months and we're like oh my

god like i am knackered i just want to get somewhere and just like claim a salem and be done with it and you have to get a tent and get a sleeping bag and queue for toilets and queue for food and there's nothing wrong with queuing but i did not grow up queuing to get like boiled potatoes you know i mean so it's difficult to i mean it's it's it's just it's a drastic change in the way you lead your life or the way you live like every day of your life so i'm queuing for like a five minute of like a shower and it's it's just difficult it's like a it's like being at the world's shittiest music festival exactly and were there i mean it seems like a crass question but were there any sort of happy times at all were there moments where yeah there are moments when

you find out that someone has made it you know i mean so someone that we know we we got to know and like befriend and we try on lorries together and then suddenly we get a phone call from them being like oh i made it and so that's the only time we feel happy and the rest is very depressing yeah because all you do is trying like jumping over fences to jump on the eurostar train or like running for years for hours to hide in a lorry and then getting caught and being chucked out by the police.

It's a very different... And did you make those attempts yourself? I was in like almost 40 lorries. The funniest one was full of marshmallows. And how did you get on? Because you do hear these awful stories as well about people throwing debris into the road. I've seen that firsthand.

So they put roadblocks so lorries can stop. And then they get on lorries, causing accidents and potentially killing people, which is wrong on every level. But what we do is that we would go on a highway with a people smuggler again. And they would go to the lorry stops where lorry drivers stop so they can spend the night. Truck stops, yeah. Yeah, truck stops. And they would open a lorry for us, and we would hide in.

And then when the driver wakes up, he drives to the Cali port or to the train terminal, and then they check it, they scan it, and they have sniffing dogs. We get caught, we get sent out, and then we go on the highway again, we try again. Right. That was like a daily process.

I couldn't make it on the lorries my cousin my friend did i felt really sad when i lost them because they were with me from day one on the journey they made it but i was alone someone came up with the idea of me buying a fake passport and i did i bought a fake bulgarian passport and my name was tracio anatoly f try on old and i went to brussels airport how much does a fake passport set you back uh how much does it cost yeah it costs so you get here's a tip if you want to get a fake passport all fake documents are made in athens i don't know it's like the capital of making fake documents and it cost cost me 4,000 euros. Okay.

Yeah. And I got it. It got sent to me in France. And I went to Brussels. And I flew British Airways. And landed in Heathrow. So wait, you get... So you see some guy in the jungle and you say... No, not jungle.

Online. Facebook. You go on Facebook groups so you're just with your device with your device your smartphone right

and you're like I'm looking for a fake password and someone will be like I'll make you one how's the wifi in the jungle you go to like cafes and restaurants right

outside the jungle to get internet access or sometimes we top up our phones right you get your phone you get passport online yep

so you he'll be like I can make you a passport. You've got to send me pictures. So you leave the money with a third party, with someone like... So you pay the money for someone, like an office. And when I receive the passport, the smuggler gets paid the money. It's like an insurance that he's going to actually send me the passport. So he's like, take two passport pictures and send them to me on WhatsApp.

Just like take a picture of it and send it to me. And I did that. And he was like, give me any address in Calais. And I gave him an address of someone's shop. And he sent it to me in FedEx. He FedExed it to me. FedEx. And how does that work though?

It turns up at the FedEx store, turns up at the jungle and goes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Literally from Athens to Calais. Right. You see, the thing, Adam, I up at the jungle and goes... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Literally from Athens to Akatagane. Right. You see, the thing, Adam, I didn't know about all of these things. Because I haven't been smuggled through like 12 European countries in my life. But it's amazing what you can find out on the internet. All of that I found out about it on social media and like from people who've done it before.

And they share that info and they share these contact details and you use them. So surreal. So suddenly you're on a plane. I bought a one-way ticket, British Airways, and went through border control. But, I mean, my English obviously helped me. And I really tried to look very European because you have to, like, I'm Bulgarian. I'm not Syrian anymore. And it took me, like, a week to memorize my fake name.-huh i mean i slipped under the radar i went through border control they checked

my passport they're like all right although i swear to god like a little kid would know it's a fake passport oh really so badly made because it's like you know when you smell it's like fresh like freshly printed yeah and the colors are weird. But I think the Border Control officer gave you a break. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

You must have been just shitting your pants. Oh my gosh. I was so afraid. I could hear my own heartbeats. Because I get stressed out flying legally,

let alone flying from Belgium to the UK on a fake World Game Passport. Yeah, yeah. That doesn't happen usually. Yeah, I was terrified. But when it happened, when I went through border control,

when I went through border control and I was at the gate, and I was like, I was drenched in my own sweat. I was so stressed out. I was like, am I going to ever going to? It's been 87 days on the journey. Am I actually going to make it today? And then I was on the plane and then plane took off and we are mid-air

it was like the one of the happiest moments of my life what about the other end though so here's the thing I looked up everything but I didn't look up what's going to happen in Heathrow so I did not know so there are now I fly a lot for work

so now there are signs that if you want to claim asylum go this way or like speak to a police officer. But for the life of me, I couldn't see them. I was just like, I need to see like someone in uniform so I can tell them what I did. Because I have to turn myself in. I cannot like go through border control in the UK with a fake passport. I'll be chucked in prison.

Yeah. So I just queued with other passengers at arrivals. I went to the arrival section, queued with other passengers, andvals i went to the arrival section queue the other passengers and then it was my turn of course the fake passport you get told that you have to destroy on the plane and flush it out of the toilet so i did that and i had no document at all to prove who i am so it was my turn and i the border control officer was like your passport and i was like i don't have a passport it was like your id and i was like i don't have a password and he was like your ID and I was like I don't have an ID and he was like give me anything technically I have to say

I want to claim asylum that's it but I just couldn't utter the words because that would be officially my first day as a refugee during the whole trip

I was a traveler they called me an illegal migrant whatever the name they gave us in the media. I was on my journey. But that moment, after I take these words, it would have been technically my first day as a refugee, as an asylum seeker. So I just couldn't put myself to it because I'm not just a refugee. I'm a photographer. I'm a filmmaker. I'm a brother, a son. I'm a lover.

I'm a driver. I'm a runner. But you narrow all of that down in one word and it's difficult again but i did i said listen mate i didn't say mate because i didn't know the word back then i wasn't british yeah and i said listen i am syrian and i flew on a fake bulgarian passport from brussels to the uk and i want to clear my asylum. And I was like, okay, have a seat. So they didn't let me in. There's like an area where people have got problems with their documents. They leave them there for a bit. And then someone in uniform and someone in a suit came.

They were like, come with us. I went with them. The first question I was asked was if I was hungry or if I needed any medical treatment. Instantly, that restored my faith in humanity my own army broke me to pieces like almost killed me and here's the police force of some foreign country that i've never been to offering me medical help and food instantly i'm like thank god for this there is still a humanity i said no i'm all right and then you've got the toughest security system in the world i was fingerprinted my three-dimensional photos of my of me were taken my body height my weight my blood type everything and then they found me on the system they they

had to confirm my identity because i could be a wanted terrorist i could be anybody yeah but then they they found me they were like yeah you are hasan akkad and you are from syria and you are this and this and that and then and we and we know that you're not on our watch list you're not like some dangerous person yeah and then they i was interrogated i wouldn't call it interrogation because interrogation seems like a negative word i was like questioned because they were genuinely very nice to me. Yeah. Very nice to me. And I sat in a room with like the same two officers questioning me on the day I was born.

And everywhere I visited, everywhere I traveled, dates, everything. And I was offering every detail. Why did you leave Syria? What happened to you? And when I told them what happened to me, they did say, listen, off the record, we're really sorry about what happened. Yeah, I felt great to be treated like that. Yeah. And then I was released.

I mean, I wasn't detained to be released, but I was like, I could leave the airport the next day. And I knew there was a volunteer in Calais who visited with her boyfriend and they were like, if you ever make it, you can stay with us. So I stayed with them in Hertfordshire, in Hitchin. And then I started couch surfing. And then six months later, it was my second interview at the home office.

I did that again. Same interview, same questions, but like more details. And then two months later, I was granted political asylum. I can stay for five years right yeah yeah that must have been a good day yeah and when you are so as an asylum seeker you can't work you get given five pounds a day but i was i was like fuck that i want to do something

so i told you i started giving talks and going around the country and telling people about what's going on i just like normally i was reclaiming my normality again. Yeah. One step after the other. Have you seen, there was a video made for Elton John's's song i have yeah yeah yeah it was amazing an iranian film yeah yeah i mean if they make it he did it yeah majid adin uh he came to the uk from iran via the jungle as well and his video elton john sort of it was just a competition for anyone to to make videos for them to sort of keep the songs fresh in a way for

a new generation and they weren't all political videos that were made but this one turned out to have this political underpinning because it was about the experience of a refugee and I was looking at some of the comments under the YouTube video, and most of them were very positive, I have to say. But a few of them illustrate the sorts of prejudices that you do hear from people who are opposed to immigration, from people who are worried about the situation. And these comments, they're broadly illustrative of quite a few points of view. And I'm curious to know if you've spoken to people with these sorts of views and what kind of conversations you've had about them and how you would respond to them. Here's one.

I can't understand why the woman and the children featured in the video, his family, aren't the refugees. The man should have fought for the freedom of his country, not run away and left his family behind. Another comment says of the protagonist, the refugee in the video, oh, bless, he'll need a canister of C4. The police have confiscated the ones his brothers had.

Those two are sort of broadly illustrative of some of the prejudices that people have, right? So what do you say to people who think things like that? I've had people saying that, exactly the same things to me. They were like, in World War II, we did not flee. We fought. We stood our ground. We didn't go to another country.

We fought. I mean, that did happen, and that's great. But that is an evidence or a proof that you don't understand the Syrian war, for example. I'm talking about Syria. Because we are not fighting an enemy. It's our army bombing us. So I cannot stay and fight. Like, for example, I told you my whole story.

Like, there was no way of me staying. And I told you it's not unique. So people got tortured to death. People got thrown into the army to join the military service and given weapons to fight and kill other Syrians. Any sensible human being wouldn't want to do that and it's because men who are going through that it's because young men they are the ones to flee and also there are families so for example say the rocket man film all right i am or actually one of my really good friends and he was also featured

in exodus the documentary that I was in. He's a Kurdish young man. He fled, did the same journey. He left his wife and kid behind. Why? Because he was like, no way I'm taking my wife and my son with me on a boat. I'm going to get to wherever I'm going to get. I'm going to get a residency,

and then I'm going to fly them legally into the country. Because once you get leave to remain, you're eligible for family unification. And he did now his wife and his kid flew direct from turkey to uk that's what happens this is what happens and the other thing of like he left there's always this thing and i get it i get it i mean let's just be sensible all right most of the recent attacks that have happened in europe in the states they've been been committed by Muslims, second generation immigrants. The UK, France, Germany, Sweden, they've happened. And I get why people are worried. I would be worried myself. I'm just being completely factual. But people are still going to come. It's impossible

to stop the movement of people. No matter how many fences you build, people are still going to come. So do we side with the 1% of the Muslims or less than 1% that want to kill everybody? Or do we side with the 99% and become their allies to beat the 1%? Physically and mentally. Because we are fighting the extremist mentality of running people down with lorries and bombing to get to heaven. It's a stupid rhetoric that less than 1% of the Muslims around the world believe in. How do we challenge that?

By working with the 99% who want to get rid of that mentality, get rid of that rhetoric. It's all a vicious cycle, all right? When the Western world turn a blind eye on people being butchered by dictators and by extremists like ISIS, they will get radicalized, All right? Because this is the

radicalization method. The world doesn't need you. They think you're a terrorist. They think that you are a criminal, but you can seek purpose with us. You can get to heaven with us. We'll give you revenge. By excluding people, you are feeding that rhetoric. By including them, by accepting them, by integrating them, you are fighting that rhetoric. For me, accepting them by integrating them you are fighting that rhetoric for me that's how i see it a really good friend of mine charlotte maxwell she's similar to a lot of europeans and british people went to volunteer in the camps and um one of these volunteers charlotte she saw what's going on but then she realized because she was also on the other end going going back and forth to England,

she saw that even the people who make it to England, the journey's not over. Well, I personally have the advantage of speaking English. I can integrate. I can find a job. It's easy for me. But a lot of people don't speak the language. A lot of people come to England, and there's no integration system in the government here.

There's no functional system. So it falls upon a system to help people to help people integrate there's nothing so it falls upon private initiatives to integrate people she came up with this idea this app called timepiece which basically connects asylum seekers and refugees with locals it's like it's like tinder not for dating yeah for connecting people. Less sexy. Yeah. So for example, you guys here don't know how to make hummus, for example.

You don't know how to belly dance. A lot of things that we probably know, you don't know. And there are a lot of things, a lot of skills that I don't know. I want to learn English. I want to learn how to play piano. I want to learn how to write a resume. I want to, like, all the technical things that you need in your life even if they're also hobbies

alright yeah how to deep fry Mars bars exactly so Adam for example knows how to make podcasts and I speak Arabic I will

through Time Peace connect with Adam Adam will teach me how to record podcasts and I will teach him how to speak Arabic there's no money included it just helps

connecting people bringing people together right majority of asylum seekers in this country majority of refugees they end up There's no money included. It just helps connecting people, bringing people together. Majority of asylum seekers in this country, majority of refugees, they end up seeking refuge in their communities. So if you're an Afghan, you will live in an Afghan community and go out with Afghans and speak Afghan. And what is very necessary to happen in the UK and all around the world

is integrating newcomers, integrating refugees and asylum seekers. And it literally like it is, I think it is one of the most, I mean, it's as important as finding a shelter, like a place to live and a job. It is as important. Like a lot of people come with, they're traumatized. They've gone through a lot in their own countries and on the journey. So they need the support, all the support that they can get. Having something like Time Peace to facilitate that is very necessary because all I need is a normal life. I have gone through a lot as an asylum seeker, as a refugee, as someone who fled war, and I want someone to be with me, to teach me

something. I'll teach them. I need a friend. I want to feel like I'm at home. Wait. This is an advert for Squarespace. Every time I visit your website, I see success. Yes, success. The way that you look at the world makes the world want to say yes. It looks very professional. I love browsing your videos and pics and I don't want to stop. And I'd like to access your members area and spend in your shop.

your members area and spend in your shop. These are the kinds of comments people will say about your website if you build it with Squarespace. Just visit squarespace.com slash Buxton for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, because you will want to launch, use the offer code BUXTON to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. So put the smile of success on your face with Squarespace. Yes. Continue. Hey, welcome back, listeners.

Hope you found that conversation interesting. I really did. It was great to meet Hassan. He's a charming, very sincere guy. And I'm very grateful to him for his time. And speaking of time, wow, I'm the Segway King today. Don't forget to keep an eye out for the Time Piece app that he was talking about there. As I speak, it's a few weeks away from launching, but it sounds like a great idea to me, which at the very least could lead you to meeting some interesting people that you might not otherwise meet. And at best, it could

be a way to improve the experience of refugees who genuinely want to integrate and make the best of life in Britain. Google Timepiece app and you'll find a short YouTube video that tells you more if you're interested. Right, that's it for this week. Back with Rosie in a field in Norfolk for next week's intro. Don't forget to check out the free Adam Buxton app, packed with jingles and videos and bonus podcasts. Well, one so far, but more to come. And links to the World of Amazing podcast merchandise. Loads of t-shirts and mugs and, oh boy, it's amazing. And Christmas is coming, don't forget. So you could just do all your shopping there.

Till next time, thank you very much to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for production support. Thanks to Matt Lamont for additional editing. And thank you for downloading this episode and listening right to the end. You're a trooper. Now, am I going to go for the loud bye out here in Los Angeles? Or will that cause armed police to jump out and wrestle me to the ground? Eh, I don't know. Take care. I love you.

Bye! I think I'm all right. Give me like a smile and a thumbs up. Nice like a pat when my bum's up. Bye. ស្រូវាប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ Thank you. you