THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.63A - PAUL THOMAS ANDERSON

Episode Date: February 9, 2018

Adam talks with director Paul Thomas Anderson (There Will Be Blood, Punch Drunk Love, Boogie Nights) about Phantom Thread, Radiohead, Daniel Day Lewis, fatherhood, UK TV comedy and other vitally important business.Adam Buxton’s Old Bits DVD is out now from gofasterstripe.comThanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production support and Matt Lamont for additional editing. Music & jingles by Adam Buxton Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human folk Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan. Hey, how you doing listeners? Adam Buxton here. I'm on a night walk.

Usually I would be walking with Rosie, my best dog friend, during the day. But I left everything too late today. I've been at my computer and I went to see my daughter playing netball. And so the walk slot got pushed back. This is interesting stuff, isn't it? You're welcome. And now it's dark. It's a little bit scary. I've got my head torch on. Rosie's up ahead

and I can only tell that she's there because every now and again I see two points of light shining at me from the gloom and that lets me know that she's okay. Let me just check. Rosie! Okay, let me just check. Rosie! There she is. Wow, that's quite freaky. They just suddenly illuminate like little mini headlamps in the dark when she turns round. Anyway, welcome to podcast number 63A, which features a conversation with director Paul Thomas Anderson. Paul Thomas Anderson. I should say up front that this is not an interview about Paul's many wonderful films, which of course include Boogie Nights, Punch Drunk Love, Magnolia, The Master, and Inherent Vice. Although we do talk a little bit about Daniel Day-Lewis's performance in There Will Be Blood and in Paul's latest multi-Oscar nominated feature, Phantom Thread. For slightly more straightforward film chat with Paul, I would recommend his appearance on Mark Kermode and Simon Mayo's film review podcast, which was quite recent, or a few years ago he was on Mark Maron's WTF podcast episode 565

that's if you were hoping to get a more straightforward overview of Paul as a film director my conversation with him is probably more waffly than either of those two that I just mentioned but if you're a fan of his I hope you'll find it interesting and entertaining. Nevertheless, I had a good time. Before I go any further, Podcast 63B, waiting for you right now in the giant podcast bin, is a special bonus episode. And it contains a shorter conversation than this one

with Radiohead's Johnny Greenwood. And it was Johnny who first introduced me to Paul Thomas Anderson at a Radiohead show in Los Angeles back in 2008 at the Hollywood Bowl. No less. It was an exciting, star-studded evening. I was stood behind Rosanna Arquette. And who else was there? That's all I can remember. I was very impressed by Rosanna Arquette. Anyway, that's where I first met Paul Thomas Anderson very briefly. And it was shortly after Johnny's first collaboration with Paul on There Will Be Blood. Johnny wrote the score for that film of course and his most recent score for Phantom Thread has been nominated for an Academy Award and Johnny told me briefly how that score came together as well as responding to my suggestions

for possible Oscar acceptance speeches. And we also reminisced a little bit about the late Mark E. Smith of the fall. And at the end of that podcast, Johnny plays the piano. It's very short, but it is amazing. In a way, like me. But right now, let me tell you a little bit more about this episode. My rambly conversation with Paul Thomas Anderson took place at the end of January of this year, 2018, when he was in London doing press for Phantom Thread.

In case you're not aware, the film stars Daniel Day-Lewis as Reynolds Woodcock, a top dressmaker in 50s London who is uptight and controlling to the point of monstrosity. This is my description, not the official one. One day he meets Alma, a young woman played by Luxembourg native Vicky Creeps. Didn't know how to pronounce her surname until Paul told me in this podcast. And it is Alma, her character, that stands up to Woodcock the way no woman has done before, with the possible exception of Woodcock's sister and business partner Cyril, played in the film by Leslie Manville. She's fantastic. They're all very good,

I must say. Anyway, I asked Paul whether it's okay to laugh at Daniel Day-Lewis and whether his character's intolerance of minor irritations is something that Paul shares. We also talked about the Work and Family Balancing Act. We talked about dads. And we talked about some British comedy friends that we have in common. But I began by attempting to gauge Paul's Oscar excitement levels. I'll be back at the end of the podcast for more solo rambling, but right now, here we go! Have you been nominated? You've been nominated before, right?

I have been a bridesmaid, never a bride, like many, many times. So I'm an also-ran, as they say. But that's okay. It's nicer to be on the sidelines, come on. Yeah. You don't want the curse of winning. You know, when you sit there and you're looking, and luckily I've always kind of known i wasn't

gonna win maybe on there'll be blood there was a slight possibility because i was nominated at three different nominees i thought well i don't want best picture maybe like they dole out like a screenplay thing and you're watching people get up there and the fear that grips you to think if i have to get up there i fucking have no idea how this is gonna go like i mean really like dry mouth like the possibility of having to to do it is so it's so fucking scary you know and you see people get up there so smooth and george clooney getting up there just like nothing like his heartbeat is is always the same yeah but he's a pro athlete, you know? It's not my venue.

Yes. But I hope Johnny has to get up on a stage. Wouldn't that be hilarious? Yeah, wouldn't that be great? He has been nominated before, right? No. Has he not? No, first time.

First time. It was a big controversy because he was turned down for eligibility on There Will Be Blood because part of that score he had written before the film. And so on a technicality, they fucking edged him out. Yeah, there was a big furor about that. I mean, people were still angry about that one.

A little hoo-ha. Mate. Have you heard from Johnny since he's gotten nominated for his Oscar? Yeah, I emailed him. And I should have emailed you as well. I'm never sure about the etiquette with sort of saying congratulations to people about their work or whatever, if they're quite well known, you know,

because I sort of think they probably dismiss it or they don't want to hear it or it sounds like toadying or I don't know, you know. Yeah, yeah. But when I saw the film, which is great, by the way, and congratulations, as soon as we sat down and that theme started up, I was hooked in immediately. And I thought, wow, this is instantly memorable.

This is like a classic theme, you know. What were your instructions to him for creating it? Be, like, romantic. Be lush. Be big. Don't be afraid to be romantic. Because he'll always say things like, what if we, we like the smallest sound like no that's a terrible idea there's something he's always trying to shrink things uh-huh matt damon he's always downsizing johnny i think his instinct is probably to keep things simple and i

think my instinct sometimes like no let no, let's be epic. Come on, let's try it. And I think we meet somewhere good in the middle. But I was always pushing for more romantic stuff, more romantic. And like you just like suck him in with some romance, you know. Yeah. Suck him in with something that's like sort of lush and opulent. But it's good because his character is in there too.

You know, it's not a sort of anonymous... It ain't just... It sounds like Johnny Greenwood. Yeah, he can never not be himself. I mean, as stonery as that sounds. And that's why it's fun to push him, you know, or suggest things. It's funny, I just got an email from... They're doing all the Oscar-nominated scores at Disney Hall,

and his instinct was to play the slowest, most boring, maudlin cue that he wrote. I was like, no, you're not playing that. We're playing the big romantic one that everybody likes. Play the hits. Exactly. Play Creep. Exactly.

Yes, we're playing Creep. Because that's what everybody wants to hear. They don't want to hear the boring, slow one. Were you a Radiohead fan before you started working with johnny presumably yes yes and what was the stuff that you really loved at that point i'm in the category of all of it you know there was never anything that confused me i just followed them where they went do you see this short film that somebody made that was this sort of support group? I think it was when King of Limbs came out. And it was just a bunch of people sitting around in a circle, and they go,

well, hi, I'm Paul. Thanks for coming, Paul. You know, what is it? And they're like, yeah, I just don't get King of Limbs, you know. I'm sorry, you know. And then as it goes around, people start to – Oh, I did see that. They raise their hand like, I didn't understand kid A

you know and then it gets to somebody saying listen I gotta admit I didn't understand old kid computer I don't understand what was going on and finally somebody says like I didn't really like creep and they all turn and I'm like what did you say but I suppose I've whatever was happening I followed and was inspired by

from always, really. Some of my friends, when a band puts out something that they don't think is up to the right standard, they just eviscerate them. I'm like, I thought you were a fan. Give them a break. That's nice, though, is you incite that kind of riot in people's minds about what you should or shouldn't be doing. I suppose so, yeah.

What's your king of limbs in your filmography then i'm sure many people would call um inherent vice the king of limbs like what the fuck was that why do you think because it was sort of tonally so different probably i mean that was the movie that certainly seemed like the most people were scratching their heads about, either in the reviews or in the actual audience. I mean, we did get good reviews, and we thought, oh, this is all right. It's looking good. And then you would hear reports of mass walkouts in the theater after an hour, an hour and a half people just walking out that had read a review saying it's a great movie you should go see it yeah it's like it's a laugh riot right i mean there's a lot of funny stuff in your films i remember the first time i met you years ago there will be blood had come out you know i really loved the film but i thought it was very funny.

And I thought a lot of the lines in there and the way that Daniel Day-Lewis delivered them was really hilarious. And the comedy that I like most is people saying things in a strange way a lot of the time. Funny voices. That's all it takes to cheer me up. And he's got a real genius for that. And so on the one hand, obviously, there's a lot of very tragic and moving stuff. The relationship with his son is so heartbreaking. But then it culminates in these scenes where he's just bellowing these mad things.

The whole milkshake scene. He's got this kind of crazy voice, which is on the verge of parody anyway. And it's fun to impersonate and then he's saying this crazy stuff I drink your milkshake I drink it up and it was so fun to say it

and watch it you know you must be aware of that right or is that insulting I didn't think it was funny at all when we were doing it did you really know i did of course i did i mean i'm i'm probably a good director and a bad director because i'm a good audience and i will start laughing i remember that day laughing and stifling it and but he can hear me laughing so it's probably only egging him on to get bigger

does he not get angry he doesn't say i'm trying i'm in my zone i need silence the kind of daniel day lewis version of christian bale freaking out about the guy in his eyeline no i think i probably one time it happened on this one and he's so used to my laughing that i started laughing and he so he started to laugh a little bit when he was meant to be very serious he was like right out and i said i know and i just i had to leave the room so i went into the hallway and let him and leslie get on with this scene and figured i'll just see it when they're done because like i'm there's i guess there's a few type of people in the world and and I am one of those. Once he starts laughing, I can't stop, and the tears start coming.

In that bowling alley, that felt absurd and great. But you had a little bit more Al Pacino in the beginning. When you do I drink your milkshake, it sounds exactly right, but before it was a little bit scent of a... Hoo-ha! Okay, yeah. Now that's true. But that's my American ear i'm like you're you wait i'm finished is that no no yeah but do it again is finished it's less i'm finished declamatory isn't it i'm finished was that always going to be the last line did you know that that

was gonna yeah be such a peach of a last line? That's in the script, yeah. And did you have an idea of how he would deliver it? My idea was completely different. My idea was it was much more internal. Like something out of breath. Yeah. And kind of to himself.

And he did it the opposite, and it took me a minute. I think I remember saying to him, like, maybe try one, this sort of goes inside a little bit, and he was like, okay, and he went even bigger. He went even louder. You have to understand the absurdity of being in that bowling alley, which was that you'd look around,

and you'd have all these grips and electric walking around, either in their socks or with little booties on over their shoes to keep the floor clean and immaculate. all these gorillas with in their socks and trying to walk carefully around daniel with a bowling pin and paul dana with blood all over the place and two of the most absurd days of my life but really really fun in this basement bowling alley going back to daniel's performance and the comedy elements i mean i was delighted that there was a lot of that same enjoyment in phantom thread which again is it's a serious film overall it's not a comedy but there are very funny moments and again he does a great voice he like meryl streep i think right can do these voices which are really on the verge of caricature and you can still invest in that character as a real person yeah not just a caricature yeah and so he does another one it's it's much softer in phantom thread the character

who named him woodcock he did were there other names on the table arthur dapple but that was when it was a generic character name i didn't wasn't sure if he was english or not he was just this guy named arthur dapple and then that was clearly like right so we need something else and he came up with it yeah so that's funny already that's funny already and then he's got his sort of soft voice and then he's which i can't do again you can do it i'm sure you can do it the he there's a scene where he meets alma who is the star of the film, really, played by Vicky... How do you pronounce her name? Creeps.

Creeps. She's amazing. And she's working in a little restaurant tea room or something on the British coast, but he orders breakfast from her. Yeah. And it's this mad breakfast that he orders. A Welsh rare bit. Right.

With a poached egg on top. Not too runny. Bacon. Welsh rarebit. Right. With a poached egg on top. Not too runny. Bacon. Scones. Jam. Not strawberry. Tea. Do you have lapsang?

Yes. I'll have a pot of lapsang and some sausages. That's right. It's like Mr. Creosote. Do you ever see The Meaning of Life, the Monty Python film?

Yes. Yes. Yes. Oh, I couldn't. Is that his name, Mr. Creosote? Yeah ever see uh the meaning of life the monty python yes yes yes oh i couldn't is that his name mr creosote yeah shove it in but um but he's not like that he's he's very neat and dapper and tidy and yet he orders this crazy breakfast you feel as if it's going to go on and on and on that was a classic case of trying not to laugh and he just one combination of him saying cream and butter perfectly landed and i felt myself about to go about to laugh out loud and blow the take and maybe he felt me doing that and he realized just how perfectly he landed cream and butter back to back and he laughed he broke which is always the best when you get daniel to break you're like yes i think a lot

of that stuff is based on when we start we're writing there will be blood we would get together for breakfast and that is a close approximation of my breakfast order like i would order these monumental breakfasts and he was always so impressed and would laugh at me it's just become absurd joke between us now like these large breakfast orders yes i eat the breakfast of like 10 men i don't know what it is and then i don't really eat the rest of the day i don't eat meat but i yeah when in the days when i used to it would be bacon sausages what's his voice like can you do his voice in phantom thread such a very soft and precise isn't it but it's not that strawberry not strawberry strawberry not strawberry and um like a brisket of veal served on top of two eggs that have been teased very badly and

they're inside a hamburger with the Snickers coming out of the top but the Snickers needs to be very slightly melted and there should be an angry girl nearby who steals the Snickers uh huh

that sounds good that's one for the DVD do you have a blooper reel on there I could do quite a collection of Daniel's blooper reel we do have one that I think it's on YouTube of him making himself laugh on There Will Be Blood

oh I'll seek that out it's really good. I can't remember what it's called, but it's a deleted scene, an outtake from There'll Be Blood, where he makes it through the whole take without laughing, but as soon as Cut is called, you just see him collapse with enjoyment

at his own insanity. It's really kind of great. So you said that you were sat down talking, having breakfast with him while you were writing. Is that because you write in collaboration with him in those circumstances? We did this one. We did this one. On There Will Be Blood, I wrote it and then went to him. And we would just to work on fixing the script up or messing it around, we would get breakfast every morning. And then so but this one was like a proper collaboration on the script from the very beginning like i had a basic premise went to him

told him the basic premise went away wrote a few pages gave him those pages wrote some more went back and there was enough of the story that he really started to come in with ideas what about this what about this what about this went to Ireland sat around his kitchen table and really kind of at a certain point we really needed to finish it was like right let's get all the way to the end and we did that together and so he had an appreciation already for that world in a way doesn't he because like I mean he I mean, he makes shoes, yes? Yes. So that's like in the fashion universe.

Yeah. And that attention to a craft like that. He's good with his hands. Yes, he did study shoemaking. What do you call it? Cobblering. Cobblering, yes. Cobblerism.

He made a great table he's a carpenter I think he's getting the Ballad of Jack and Rose he makes furniture too Harrison Ford style he made a table he made a damn good table

did he dang did they lose yeah yeah come on alright sorry can he fit a tap in our kitchen because it's really

becoming a problem and we can't get a plumber who'll do a decent job he could probably do it like give him six months he'd figure out how to do it really well he can do anything yeah yeah so he has a predilection for that kind of thing and he can work with his hands but then i guess making shoes is different than sewing garments so you know i mean yeah but he but he studied the whole garment creating thing as well right yeah he went to study with the new york city ballet so he would go he was basically in an intern costume department right he'd go up every day with his like bag of lunch sit there and learn how to do it all wow yeah amazing that's

the that's the most enviable part i think about someone with a career like that that they can really immerse themselves in all these alternate realities the way that their lives might have gone totally totally how fun would it be to sort of that's your job like right you get to go work with the new york city ballet for a year you turn up at nine o'clock you know punch out at five o'clock yeah right let's go again what don't you fucking understand kick your fucking ass let's go again what the fuck is it with you i want you off the fucking set you prick no you're a nice guy the fuck are you doing no don't shut me up no no like this no no don't shut me up like this fuck sake man you're amateur seriously man you and me we're fucking done professionally i like those scenes with Woodcock at the breakfast table when he's in the early stages of his relationship with Alma and she's buttering her toast and it's unbearable for him how noisy it is.

But whereas I in that situation might get irritated but wouldn't say anything because I would think it was just indefensible. say anything because I would think it was just indefensible he actually says you know it's like a group of stampeding horses or something that she's buttering her toes but where does that fascination come from is that something that irritates you about other people or something you see in yourself or or what buttering toes like that Just being annoyed by those things. Being uptight about that stuff. I have some of that. Not to the extreme that he does, for sure, but I guess I have the basic ones that everybody has, like

chewing gum loud, that kind of thing, which I'm guilty of doing. What about if you're on a train and someone makes a loud phone call? That's punishable. Yeah. Right.

Why haven't people got that memo fucking fine i mean and what's even worse now is facetiming public facetime i haven't seen too much of that oh i have i've been guilty of doing it yeah somebody in a restaurant do you moderate your tone at least though i can't really talk i'm on the i'm in a restaurant right now yeah or are you a loud talker uh i i think that i'm an accidental loud talker on the telephone i think that i'm talking quietly but judging by my wife's reaction it's like you're really loud right now yeah okay my volume goes way up when i get on the phone does yours no it goes down yeah

because i'm just so i'm just a little wormy man i just want to i don't want to be noticed so someone if i'm in a restaurant i will i will talk very quietly yeah like that but if i'm let's say just with somebody that i know and we're in a private space like this, and the phone rang, I would accidentally, the volume of my voice would jump. Did you ever see Trigger Happy TV in the US? It was a big show in the UK in the 90s, a guy called Dom Jolly, and one of his recurring characters in this sort of sketch-slash-prank show that he would do

was a bloke on a mobile phone in the street, and it was really at the dawn of mobile phone ubiquity but he nailed he or at least he was the first to nail that annoying trope and he had a giant mobile phone like crazy massive and he would walk around and he'd be in the middle of a shopping center or a restaurant wherever it was and the phone would ring the Nokia ringtone and he would go oh oh I can't talk now I'm in a restaurant and it would be like that and that was it I sort of thought when I saw that like that's good at least people are going to get the message now right but they didn't it's like they saw that character and thought oh yeah that's a good thing to do. Apparently it's okay to do that.

But the other thing that's happened is people having invisible devices, what was Bluetooth and things in the ear, so they're having full-blown conversations without seeing a phone, small or big. Yeah. That's really fucking annoying. I mean, I'd go full Woodcock on that as well. Definitely.

People wandering around, just sort of gazing into the air and i remember the first time i ever saw it you know and you think oh that's sad you know oh there's a mad person but then you realize they're on the phone and then you want to kill them the thing i read a book the other day by a guy called danny wallace about politeness and it's quite a good book and he rather than just being a litany of beefs and peeves he sort of tries to analyze why certain things are irritating and he goes into the phone thing and the thing that's irritating he says about the phone call on the train is that it's just one side of the call you're hearing. And as human beings, we usually are able to screen out conversations that are not relevant to us and focus on the ones we're actually engaged with. But we do that only if we can hear both sides.

So if there's two people standing in a bar and they're having a chat, you can screen it out because you're aware that it's those two people. But if it's just one person, your brain sort of short circuits. It does not compute. I must listen carefully because I cannot hear the other side of the conversation. So I must train to hear the one I can hear even more. You know what I mean? Is he a British writer?

Yeah. He wrote Yes Man, the Jim Carrey thing. Right. Yeah. He's a nice guy. The best joke in Yes Man was when he, didn't he hook up with like a Harry Potter group and they watch all the Harry Potter movies back to back?

Oh, okay. So he has to say yes. So he has to watch every Harry Potter movie in a row and they get to the end and they say guys wanna do it again one of the finest

Jim Carrey moments is him saying yes for the second time to watch them all back to back by the way along with I mean

the unfortunate thing is like at the Oscars when they do like the history of movies, you know, they do those great things and usually ends, it starts, you've got Charlie Chaplin, you've got the Great Train Robbery and usually ends with like E.T. flying across the moon, right? Is that never will they include Jim Carrey coming out of the rhinoceros' ass, right? In Ace Ventura 2. In Ace Ventura 2 which is like if they ever had the guts to include it it is one of the finest you're absolutely right in my estimation the first 20 minutes of that film are fucking amazing yeah when Jim Carey's on form he's hard to beat every time um Liar Liar comes on TV, I'll give that a watch.

Yep, me too. Cable Guy? Cable Guy, I haven't seen for ages. That's a bit like something you'd make, though. It's got a strange tone to it. Judd Apatow wrote that. Oh, did he? And Ben Stiller directed it.

And it was considered kind of a bomb at the time. He had been on a streak. He'd been on this real winning streak with Dumb and Dumber, Mask, and Ace Ventura. Yeah, three biggest films of that year. Like straight away, like big ones, each one bigger than the last. And then Cable Guy came, and it was so fucking peculiar. Kind of a bit more like Carrie, you know, like really dark and nuts. And yeah, people didn't go for it but look back at it

it is brilliant there's another movie he made judd apatow wrote that nobody knows called heavyweights i don't know it's about uh fat kids camp uh-huh already it's watch out come on mate it's called heavyweight get with the times it's great presumably a lot of those farrelly brothers movies which were on pc at the time are now completely right i don't know i haven't can you imagine them trying to go i'm me myself and irene yeah that's a fantastic movie yeah it's got some very funny stuff in it as well yeah but that that was their mo wasn't it to be insensitive at least superficially about some of those issues yeah be funny to see them applying their talents to hashtag Me Too and all those sorts of things.

Yeah, the Farley Brothers, here they come. Yeah. I mean, I guess two straight white blokes probably wouldn't be best positioned to tackle some of that material. Yeah. Is that an area that makes you think, oh, yeah, that's a good script? Me Too or Farley Brothers? No.

What's it like in Hollywood in that climate? Do you feel as if things have fundamentally shifted? The biggest thing was like Pay Gap. That really sort of started a bunch of years back. That was gigantic. It was like how the fuck are you going to justify paying

Jennifer Lawrence and Amy I think it was on and amy i think it was on that film i think it was on american hustle right it became a big deal it sort of all started to come out and even recently there was another huge pay gap yeah reshoots for all the money in the world right it's weird though to square a lot of the stuff with the way that showbiz works anyway i mean it's so ridiculous a lot of the stuff, quite apart from harassment, sexism, anything like that. Just the whole pathetic way that status is negotiated, you know, to the extent that on movie posters,

you can have one actor's name higher than the others, like by a couple of centimetres or or something and it's a big deal the most prestigious place on the poster is to have your name on the left at the top of the poster even if the photograph above that name is not of the actor and all those sorts of things you know what i mean i fucking know all too well what you mean did you see wag the dog yeah do you know it well no years ago. I saw it when it came out. That really says everything,

the fantastic way that it unfolds and it ends. You're Dustin Hoffman's Hollywood producer character, right, who produces and orchestrates a fake war to distract from a real sex scandal that's happening at home, right? And by the end of it, you know, obviously it's all clandestine and meant to be no one's supposed to know that this is happening, but by the end of it, he cannot resist.

His fatal flaw is, I need to get credit for this. Right? Yeah. And De Niro is saying, yeah, I don't think you understand. This didn't happen. We didn't do this. And Dustin Hoffman is saying, yeah, I don't think you understand. This didn't happen. We didn't do this. And Dustin Hoffman, as a Hollywood producer, cannot understand. He's like, no, it's about the fucking credit.

It's about the credit. Yeah. And presses it to the point where De Niro looks at him and thinks, well, we have to kill you now. And obviously you think that's what's next. They don't show it, but you think that's what's next. Yeah. Which I think should be implemented more and more in hollywood like like i'm sorry but if there are discussions annoying discussions about credit or if you're

taking credit for something you didn't do you should be murdered i'm afraid you had to be killed but of course now i can't watch wag the dog because of the allegations against dustin hoffman clouding my appreciation what's your position on favorite films from the past that are now tainted with the bad behavior of some of their lead actors can you still appreciate them or do you find it hard to separate those two things because of that and that obviously that's now a big political choice for a lot of people is should you boycott certain films that may have been made 99 by totally blameless people and crew but feature one performer who's supposedly done something awful are you supposed to stay away from those films i mean i was brought up to believe that there was a difference between the art and

the artist yeah but now it's like people are saying no it's as simple as saying if you're going to go and see that film you are tacitly endorsing the bad behavior of that artist and ignoring the experience of their victims you know i'm gonna lay that on you paul it's getting heavy i mean and then we're going to talk about farts look uh i suppose that i have a hard time wrestling with ilia kazan's actions you know i'm talking about back then and naming names this is somebody who named names i mean the kind of the most you know the most'm talking about back then and naming names. This is somebody who named names. I mean, the kind of the most, you know, the most unforgivable sin. You name names, you name names, man.

Golly. But good director. Fuck, I don't know. I mean, I like his films. If a similar situation was to happen now, would you have a different policy? I don't know. Things are clouded, you know. Things get clouded.

It's hard not to. But, yeah, time passes and then... Look, if we start looking behind the covers on every dark, dirty secret that anybody who's ever made a movie's done, I don't know, we're going to get down to, like, how many movies are we going to be able to watch. Paul Blartmore copped through.

They were all nice on that apparently I I came across this the other day Ernest Hemingway, the writer who left a fairly considerable trail of destruction with some of his relationships not least his three children he had one of them, Gregory, the youngest had a very troubled life and I mean there's a whole other story about his struggles to settle upon the right gender he from an early point would dress up in

women's clothes and some people say that Hemingway his father gave him a hard time because he was such a man man macho man and he's like what are you doing dressing up as a woman but actually it seems that hemingway was also having those same sort of impulses and same thoughts is that right yeah and uh and maybe didn't treat his son as sensitively as he ought because for that reason because he was consumed by ambivalence and self-loathing because he had similar impulses anyway i don't know but that's what i've sort of picked up a little bit his son though at a certain point gregory wrote to his father when it's all added up papa it will be he wrote a few good stories had a novel and fresh approach to reality and he destroyed five persons hadley pauline marty hemingway's

third wife patrick and possibly myself which do you think is the most important your self-centered shit the stories or the people can you imagine receiving that letter or even writing it though you know feeling that you had to write that right that's pretty hardcore um it is very hardcore and actually probably hemingway's truthful answer would have been the stories like that's the most important thing that's the that's the thing i can most usefully do which will connect meaningfully with the most number of people. But it's such a horrible answer, really. You want the answer, obviously, to be the people are most important. Yeah.

But it's weird. It's like you can't, you wouldn't want a world without certain, whether you like Hemingway's books or not, you know. You would probably value those fairly highly, wouldn't you? Yeah, but that's, I don't know, that suns on to something. Like, you know, it's, before, when I was was younger you go through years of making a film making something and the exclusion especially when you're younger at the exclusion of sort of relationships that you have friendships and you're not you're not calling people back you know because you're so busy so

self-consumed with this thing and you get to the end and it's a fucking plastic DVD and you're like that's it right and I remember realizing that like hang on a minute let me just look back at this year and the relationships that I've haven't maintained or I haven't kept up there's got to be a way to do both things you know they don't cancel each other out it's not like you can't be a good father, a good friend, a good husband, and to make this monumental creation. That's fucking horseshit, you know. So you know when to clock off, do you? I'd like to think I do, you know, for sure.

And, I mean, you've got four, right? Three. You've got three. Yeah. This is practically the same. You've got four? Mm-hmm. Oh, my God. What a madman. You've got three. Yeah. This is practically the same. You've got four? Mm-hmm. Oh, my God.

What a madman. You're killing the planet. Not if we downsize them. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Wow. So, like, I mean, it's actually a really nice feeling when they're really mad at you for going to work. Like, what? Again?

You just went to London. Can I go with you? That's their next, like, come on, take me with you. How old's the oldest? 12. 12. How old's your oldest? 15.

Okay, so you got a couple years on me. We got 12, nine, six, and four. Boys and girls? One boy, the rest, the three girls. Oh, okay. What do you have? One girl. The rest, the three girls. Oh, okay. What do you have? One girl. Two boys.

And the older ones are boys. Yeah, it's all getting pretty teenaged. Do you have dark nights of the soul about parenting? Of course, who wouldn't? Yeah. I mean, I don't want a fucking letter like that ever coming across my desk. Oh, mate. I mean, but on the other hand, there has to be some moment.

You have to embrace, like, I need you to fucking hate me at a certain point. I need you to kill me off. There's got to be a handoff, right? That's a rite of passage. But we've got to maintain, and you've got to give up and take it. So I'm looking forward to the challenge, but my God, I mean, I would say my existence would be to make sure to not get a letter like that.

Yeah. Fuck off. That's priority number one, isn't it? Yes. But some children just seem pre-programmed to do the absolute opposite of everything you want or care about. And they don't do it as a gesture of defiance necessarily

It's just that that's what they're naturally drawn to like what could be more Boring and pointless than anything my parents do or want sure. I mean and I I can remember that yeah, just thinking Everything my dad was saying to me. I would just instantly ignore because you're my dad. I love you, but God you're boring mm-hmm Why would I want to do all the boring shit that you do but that's because he was into totally different stuff you know do you remember what some of those things would have been i mean everything his earliest attempts to sit down and read to me and the same impulses that i had you know you think okay i've got children i'm now going to curate their tastes right and introducing all this brilliant stuff that i'm it's a big responsibility so i can't just choose any old stuff all block all cop three that's tomorrow but today we're gonna watch ace

ventura 2 no it wasn't just that but you know what books you read to them and stuff and i remember my dad sat down and and he wanted to read me these books oh what's the name of that guy he writes all this naval fiction uh is it even it's not em no it's not enforced it is it the stuff that master and commander yeah exactly yeah yeah yeah yeah those are meant to be great but i could yeah but it's an acquired yeah it's got all this super technical nautical jargon in it Patrick

Patrick yes come on Patrick Stewart should I go to the device that knows everything yeah let's do it because otherwise

it's too shameful I mean it's it's embarrassing that I can't remember Patrick O'Brien there you go. People also ask, can Russell Crowe actually play the violin? The answer presumably is yes.

He's another Day-Lewis-style character, isn't he, Rusty Crowe? Russell Crowe plays the violin in the film Master and Commander, having been taught the instrument in three months by Australian Chamber Orchestra leader Richard Tognetti, the two men describe the learning process in double acts. The clip also features fellow actor Paul Bettany on the cello. There you go. Daniel's not the only one.

No, who's committed. Although Russell only spent three months, Daniel would have done it for ten years before he was ready to do this. Something that you would appreciate that this reminds me of that I insist you find is, do you remember Lionel Richie dancing on the ceiling? Sure. Do you remember the music video? Okay, they took the premise, I can't remember what Fred Astaire movie it's in,

but they turn the entire room upside down. And Fred Astaire dances the entire time as it's turning and never loses his balance so it appears as if he's literally dancing on the ceiling they got the whole set right the whole set's on a gimbal okay so lionel richie recreates this and comes to the set they have a behind the scenes which may may or not be on youtube and he comes to the set gets out of his limo and the director greets him and he says Two days two days. We're gonna do what Fred Astaire did in third Well, it took him 30 days to learn what took us two days and then you see the video and it should be called crawling on the ceiling because

He doesn't dance on the ceiling. He crawls So there's no dancing and there's no it it just tumbles it tumbles forward as the room the entire time the way that any normal person would crawling on the ceiling yeah patrick o'brien though and towards the end of his life i was going to say that that my pa he still had all these books. He's got all the Patrick O'Brien books. And I said, shall I read to you? And he's like, yes, OK. So I start trying to read to him from Patrick O'Brien.

And I get tripped up immediately on the jargon. It's so dense, the nautical jargon. And so I wasn't really reading it too well but i was thinking you know this is sort of nice this is one of the few moments that actually is a little bit what i hoped might happen when i was looking after my dad in his last months you know me just reading to him but then after a couple of pages i just hear and i look over and he's like stop because i was murdering it he didn't want to go into the afterlife with you butchering his favorite book you can download an audio book

that's good but the thing is that i don't know if he remembered trying to read the same books to me when i was little thinking that he would curate my literary tastes and i just remember him reading those books and glazing over and just thinking this is definitely the most boring thing i've ever heard this is nonsense i couldn't understand a word of it i was just what i guess i got lucky because my dad what i inherited from him was his love of big band music sort of standard singers ella fitzgerald kitty callan jack teagarden all these people that style of music which i still obsess over and listen to all the time and that is comes directly from him. There was no choice. I don't know if he was trying to curate it for me that we got in the car and that's what

he turned on and he turned it on really loud. I don't remember if I liked it then or not, but once he was gone, I really started to love it as a way to be connected still to him. Yeah. And I think it's taken on a life of its own now i hear it i listen to so much of it it's not as if it takes me back there anymore it's my own connection to it and when it comes on of the four kids i can tell the one who does like it she really perks up and she listens to it and And the others, like, glaze over and they're like, put on Katy Perry. Yes, exactly.

Put on Havana. Stop with this shit. And I remember my dad watched old movies and would put stuff on, and I would always be into what he put on mostly. But my sisters, no, they were out of the room, did not want to see it. Yeah. You know what though i the the things that i cherish the most from my dad are items of clothing right those are things that you can

really i don't know he wore this shirt like i mean those are good they're better than books and things than that he liked or anything i'm'm like... There's a song by Spoon called Fitted Shirt about exactly that. Is there? Yeah. Huh. Wearing his dad's shirts that fit right. That's cool. Yeah.

I'd like to hear that. Thank you. we have a mutual friend who worked on phantom thread julia davis and she was very excited to get that part i know and and we as her friends were like trying to get bits of information out of her but she was very politic um she did say though because she has a scene a dinner party scene and uh she said oh i think i'm going to be cut out anyway but um but no she's not she's she's in there pretty well yeah i showed her off a cut of the movie and she's like she just cut me out which is basically her way of saying like put more shit in so i put more stuff in how did you come across her stuff jam youtube the what was the thing she did

with um human remains human remains yeah humanains was my first real entrance into Julia Davis land. How did you get into all that British stuff like jam and day to day and all that? Probably Johnny, I think. Ah, right. Johnny Greenwood. Yeah. Right. Anyway, back to Julia.

That's a funny household too, Julian. I mean, have you seen Flowers? Yeah. Yeah. Flowers is fucking great. Did you like the bush though or is that too mad for you? No, not at all. I loved it.

Loved it. I loved it. I haven't seen all of them. I mean, there's a lot of them. Yeah. No, all that stuff is brilliant. He's a really good actor, Julian. Amazing.

Yeah. They're making another Flowers, which I'm really excited about, but I'm like, what? Okay, let's see what happens, because I really thought that was such a fully formed, perfect thing. So I'm excited for the next one, but I don't know. It's always nerve-wracking when somebody does something again. You're like, God, this has got to be as good as the first.

Olivia Colman. Yeah. She's always good. She's annoying. I know. I mean, money in the bank. Yeah. Amazing. But, yeah, Julia, money in the bank. Yeah. Amazing.

And then, but yeah, Julia, I'd like to, did you see Camping? Sure. It was, that was fucking mad. Yeah. I mean, that went places nobody else dares to go. So what's the, I mean, is she just like an unsung national treasure? I think everyone that likes comedy knows about her yeah in this country yeah but no i suppose she's not totally mainstream i guess the most mainstream she would have got

would have been gavin and stacy which was a massive crossover success right but then was that the one with james corden yeah yeah yeah i don't really know that one no i never really got to grips with it but yeah she's like the queen of the left field i suppose right i don't know why exactly because she could easily do mainstream stuff she's very very versatile say that again yeah i'd like to dream something up with her to do you know with that was it was unfortunate it was only two days we spent like some time writing out the scenes. Actually, I had her write it, really. I was like, here's a couple of ideas.

You write this out. I think that was the kind of thing going to somebody who's... It was a thin scene. There wasn't that much there. But I knew I needed some good firepower against Daniel. But rather than... I know what it's like because I know people have called up Maya. Oh, this is your partner? Yes. Yeah. Who is Maya Rudolph. An actor, yeah. But rather than, I know what it's like, because I know people have called up Maya and said,

Oh, this is your partner? Yes. Yeah. Who is Maya Rudolph. An actor, yeah. She was in Braves, mate. It was very funny. One of the funniest films in the world. Absolutely.

Yeah. But people will call her up and say, just come be funny. Right. And it's like, oh, fuck, hang on. Like, what's the plan? You know, like, oh, no, no, no, you just improvise something. And, you know, that doesn't work like that. So with Julia, I was really paranoid about it.

I was like, I haven't really written this out. I don't want to throw you to the wolves. And she was really paranoid, too, about, like, I can't have a scene with Daniel and just start improvising. But what she was wrong about was that you could, you know. So we had a small thing written and just started to go and you could see the nerves melt away on her pretty quickly she was like right i can't keep i can't actually keep this going um and it was chaotic too because there's all these non-actors around

yes she said that that daniel had some of his friends there yes and there was the guy who was the owner of the house that we shot out down on the Cotswolds, who's not an actor. So that mix was really good. It just kept the ball constantly in the air. So these actors, these non-actors are, it's just curveball after curveball. They don't know any rules of improvising.

They're just flowing and making left turns, left and right. Yeah, and from a technical point of view, presumably they're doing things that you won't be able to use and absolutely looking down the camera or whatever it might be all the time so but you have to just keep looking for the moments that you you do need you know so yeah it turned into a it turned into a full-blown jazz odyssey in front of a festival crowd. And Daniel's fine with that, is he? Yeah. Yeah.

He doesn't sort of go, no, I can't tolerate this. No. No. I like that impression of him. Paul, can I have a word? I want a tiny ballet dancer on top of two cheeseburgers with an egg being carried by a clown

to be brought into my room to make up for the farce that was that last scene. Wait. This is an advert for Squarespace. Every time I visit your website, I see success. Yes, success. The way that you look at the world makes the world want to say yes. It looks very professional.

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Yes. Continue. Milkshake! I ain't drinking up! Rosie! Come here, doggles. Look at your eyes. They're crazy. I'm wearing a head torch.

And when it shines into Rosie's eyes, they look like green lasers shining in the night. Or a kind of demon of restricted height a tiny doggy demon jumping up and down Rosie that's the end of my song sorry if it was offensive

Rose come here let's go home it's freezing cold Rosie come on I want to go over here I really wouldn't recommend it it's dark mum doesn't like it want to go over here. I really wouldn't recommend it. It's dark. Mum doesn't like it when you go off. Here, good girl. No, over here, Rose. We're heading back.

Is that okay? But we didn't go for a long walk today. I know, I'm sorry. We'll do one tomorrow. Come on, let's head back. Anyway, welcome back, listeners. Paul Thomas Anderson there. What a Anyway, welcome back listeners. Paul Thomas Anderson there. What a charming, down-to-earth man. I got the sense that he's not the kind of person that particularly enjoys. So we just ended up having a nice rambly combo. But I hope you got something out of it. I'm going to say my thank yous just a bit before the very end of the podcast today. Thanks, obviously, to Paul. Thanks to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his production support. Invaluable as ever. And to Matt Lamont for additional editing now Daniel Day-Lewis has supposedly retired from acting he announced

that he wasn't going to do any more acting after he finished Phantom Thread and I read one piece that said he was just very sad and he was experiencing great sadness, which is a shame. I didn't know that before I spoke to Paul, otherwise I might have asked him, although I'm not sure if it's something that Paul would particularly care to talk about. I am disappointed, though, that Daniel Day-Lewis hasn't used his retirement to get really good at plumbing as I suggested and come and fix our kitchen tap. I mean it really is quite a

nightmare which has gone on for around six months and I know there are other serious problems that people have to deal with in the world but I don't think they're worse than this. Because it's really, I mean, it really is dripping. And making quite a lot of noise as well. Grumbling, whining, groaning, that kind of thing. On the upside, it's a brilliant resource for avant-garde composers. I'll take my hand off the handle. composers. I take my hand off the handle and immediately we begin to get some beautiful sounds.

The tap is saying, why is it so hard to get a plumber to actually just change the tap? Someone was supposed to come last week but they ordered the the tap. Someone was supposed to come last week, but they ordered the wrong tap. Oh, it will drip forever, I think. Accompanied by these sounds, deep down in the ground. Of the pipes in the ground of the pipes in the house the guts of the house groaning Thank you. There we go.

Kitchen Tap Symphony for you. You're welcome. That's pretty much it for the podcast this week. But don't forget to check out Podcast 63B, your bonus podcast with Johnny Greenwood, available right now in the Giant Podcast bin.

And I will be back next week with yet another Oscar-nominated director talking to me about their latest film. That's Greta Gerwig, with whom I spoke recently about her film Lady Bird, which is also a terrific film. We also talked about other bits and pieces. That was a fun chat. And yes, if all goes to plan, that'll be out next week.

And then I promise that the next few guests on the podcast will not be oscar-nominated american directors unless jordan peele decides to get back to me but so far no response from the peele camp he's someone i'd love to have on the podcast. If you know Jordan Peele, give him a shout. Wow, look at my breath. My breath is being illuminated by my head torch in the dark. And because it's so cold, it's as if I'm vaping. Except my breath doesn't smell like strawberries.

Currently. except my breath doesn't smell like strawberries currently it smells like victory only joking smells of farts okay take care listeners i love you bye Bye! Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Please like and subscribe. Give me like a smile and a thumbs up. Nice, take a bite, put me thumbs up. Give me like a smile and a thumbs up. Nice, take a bite, put me thumbs up. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe.

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