THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.68 - JON RONSON

Episode Date: March 16, 2018

Adam talks with Welsh journalist, screenwriter and film maker Jon Ronson (‘So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed’, ‘The Psychopath Test’, ‘The Men Who Stare At Goats’, co writer of the films ��Frank’ & ‘Okja’) about, amongst other things, his recent audio series ’The Butterfly Effect’ in which Jon meets people affected in a variety of surprising ways by the spread of free internet pornography.As Jon himself says of ‘The Butterfly Effect’: “It's sad, funny, moving and totally unlike some other nonfiction stories about porn - because it isn't judgmental or salacious. It's human and sweet and strange and lovely.”But are there times when being judgmental serves a useful purpose, even if it’s annoying, hurtful or in the context of pornography, hypocritical? That isn’t just a random rhetorical question - it does actually get discussed in the podcast.Jon also tells Adam about meeting British columnist and provocateur Katie Hopkins, considers the case for declaring Donald Trump mentally ill and shares a few podcast recommendations.Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production support and Jack Bushell for additional editing. Music & jingles by Adam Buxton Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human folk Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan. Hey, how you doing listeners? Adam Buxton here. I am observing what looks to me like a seagull

flying over the field out here in the Norfolk countryside UK and it's gone now it's gone over towards the rooks they're not known for their cordial easygoing camaraderie the rooks not around these parts anyway but hey look I don't want to get into a fight with the rooks. I'm sure they're a perfectly delightful community when you get to know them. Rosie, she's doing fine. She's bouncing. And I am going to tell you now about this week's guest, John Ronson. Hey, welcome back, John. He was, of course, one of the very first guests on this podcast. Episode number four features John Ronson, a conversation recorded

in 2014 in New York, where John still lives. Let me put John in some more, slightly more meaningful context for those less familiar with his oeuvre. John is a Welsh journalist, screenwriter and filmmaker. John's books include 2001's Them, Adventures with Extremists, in which he details meetings with controversial and outspoken figures like David Icke, Randy Weaver, Omar Bakri Mohammed, Ian Paisley and Alex Jones. We mention Alex in this podcast conversation towards the end. John also wrote 2004's The Men Who Stare at Goats, adapted as a film starring George Clooney and Ewan McGregor. The book is about the bizarre psychic and paranormal experiments

undertaken by the US Army in the 70s and 80s. I just was sort of looking at the notes on my phone there and almost walked right into a whole big load of branches. And then I was going to avoid the branches, but I couldn't because there was a big brown puddle. I should really write some books, shouldn't I? This is what would be in my books. Chapter four, the branchesches and the Puddle. I am now circumnavigating the puddle. Audio proof of puddle. 2011's The Psychopath Test, A Journey Through the Madness Industry, which investigated how and why the concept of psychopathy has become so important in recent years. And there was 2015's So You've Been Publicly Shamed. That book, of course, if you haven't read it, considered the effect of society's tendency to judge and humiliate on social media.

Society, of course, not me. I would never do anything like that because I'm so great and nice and I don't have any of the kind of hang-ups that feature in John's books. the kind of hang-ups that feature in John's books. John also co-wrote the screenplay, along with Peter Straughan, for the 2014 film Frank, about cult British artist Frank Sidebottom. John played keyboards in Frank Sidebottom's band for a while. John also co-wrote the screenplay for the 2017 film Okja. He co-wrote that with the film's South Korean director Bong Joon-ho. And there's all the TV documentaries

that John's done, the articles, the radio programs. The conversation that I had with John in this podcast was recorded in November of last year, 2017. And it was concerned mainly with John's recent audio series, The Butterfly Effect, in which John meets people affected in a variety of surprising ways by the spread of free internet pornography. As John himself says of the butterfly effect, it's funny, sad. I was going to do a John Ronson impression there,

but then I thought that might be disrespectful in the intro. It's sad, funny, moving, and totally unlike some other non-fiction stories about porn because it isn't judgmental or salacious. It's human and sweet and strange and lovely, says John. But in this conversation, we also talk about whether there are times when being judgmental actually serves a useful purpose, even if it is annoying or hurtful or in the context of pornography, of course, quite hypocritical considering how many of us have seen pornography,

not me, of course. John also told me about meeting the British columnist and provocateur Katie Hopkins. We talked about the case for declaring Donald Trump mentally ill and what other podcasts John is currently enjoying, apart from mine, of course. It was lovely to see John again. I'm such a big fan of his work. I'd only seen him once since we spoke in 2014, so we began our conversation with him telling me what's been happening in his life. Here we go. Ramble Chat, let's have a ramble chat. Here we go. Hey, how you doing, man?

I'm all right. I mean, I wouldn't say I was 100% tip-top. Well, I would be disappointed if you did. I'm fine. I've been over for about 10 days, so I'm taking Nytol every night, so I feel slightly groggy. And do good mornings follow a good Nytol? No. But I have very low tolerance to everything everything honestly but it's nothing worse

and it's nothing with the loneliness the intense loneliness of lying awake at three o'clock in the morning particularly when you're not in your time zone yeah willing sleep to come it makes you feel crazy doesn't it yeah it really does oh does. Oh, I get paranoid. If I email someone, sometimes I wake up at three in the morning and I won't get back to sleep. And so an email will come in and I respond to it. And then the next day I read my response to the email and it's just so paranoid. It's so nuts. It's like, well, are we sure we can trust him? Things I'd never say or think

during during the waking hours i would think that that's probably excusable and understandable in your line of work that's true and so you're here in london at the moment to talk about uh butterfly effect right um actually i mean, I'm here this week, but my father died. Oh, John, I'm so sorry. He died three weeks ago. So last week was like the funeral, so I was in Cardiff for the week. Yeah. And then I came to London and I'm doing some work stuff this week. Right. Are you okay to talk about all that? I suppose.

I mean, not like exhaustively. Yeah. Last time I saw you, I bumped into you on the train. You'd just done a gig in Norwich. And we were talking about your dad being ill at that point. He had dementia for about 10 years. But then what happened, I didn't quite realize this actually until I went to Cardiff. So he had dementia for about 10 years. But then what happened, I didn't quite realise this actually until I went to Cardiff.

So he had dementia for about 10 years, but about two years ago, he was in a really bad car crash. Like this guy took my father and a friend of his out for a drive and the guy fell asleep at the wheel and crushed the car. And the other person in the car died.

And my father hit his head so badly, the dementia turned into Alzheimer's. Oh, no. Yeah, so, and then he died three weeks ago. Oh, dear. I'm so sorry. I know. And you weren't there, presumably, because you're in New York, right? Yeah. Also, you know what? I just think I would have found it too upsetting to see him like that. Was he lucid though at that point or not? No.

No. The last time I saw him was maybe about a year ago. Yeah. And I went to visit him in the home. Were you, I mean, how did you deal with seeing him in that sort of state because it's strange when when my dad was ill on the one hand it's distressing to see someone you love um you know near the end of their life and suffering in all sorts of ways and then the other thing that's going on for me anyway was projecting myself into the future into the same position being at the end of my life and wondering how I was going to deal with it. Yeah, yeah.

So it's frightening on so many levels. You're frightened for that person, for yourself in general, and it's weird. Yeah, there's definitely no upside. But the upside is a kind of very grim vein of humour that there is there when strange things happen. Yeah. I did a reading at the funeral that made everyone laugh. Mm-hmm. So that was good. Did you keep it together at the funeral?

Yeah, I did. With your dad being so ill for so long, I suppose you've processed quite a bit. Oh, it was totally expected. I'd known all summer that it was imminent. Yes. And that takes some of the harshness out of it when it happens. Oh, definitely. The other thing that takes the harshness out of it

is the fact that I do think us Ronsons are quite pragmatic. We're sort of pragmatists. My father was a real pragmatist. In fact, one thing I was remembering the other day was I actually wrote about this a few years ago. My father was all about kind of restructuring the will. And, you know, he was always about sort of financial, you know, making sure everything was like in its right place.

And in fact, my mother reminded me this time. He phoned me up and he said, he said, we're restructuring the will again. I want you to go into the Bank of Shanghai and sign some forms. And I was like, what do you mean the Bank of Shanghai? He was like, yeah, yeah, we've moved our account to the Shanghai Banking Corporation. I was like, why? And I was thinking, only my dad would like to choose such an obscure bank. Do they have very competitive rates?

I don't know. I was like, well, i don't even know where one is no he said they're all over the place and i was like no they're not and he said well they are in cardiff and i said well maybe uh maybe um in cardiff there was like something to do with like i don't know the tea trade and uh you know that sort of, you know, lots of Shanghai people settling. But in London, it's like there's no banks of Shanghai anyway. No, I can't picture one. Yeah.

So I said, we'll have to go to the Chinese embassy and see if they've got a branch. And he was like, I don't understand what you're talking about. They're everywhere. And I'm like, they're not. I said, tell me the name of the bank again. He said, the Hong Kong and Shanghai Bank. And it's like this long silence. And I said, the HSBC.

Is that really what it stands for? Yeah, the Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Corporation. I'm like, you're the only person. I think earlier on he had said, it's the Hong Kong and Shanghai Bank. You're the only person who refers to it by its form. Wow. I just, I mean, not that I'd ever actually considered what the letter stood for, but I suppose I assumed it was someone's name or something. That's great. I know. Well, man, I'm'm sorry i'm really sorry about that well thank you i mean you know this is the age that we're at this is the age that we're at i'm just customizing

the uh the old jimmy salvo jingle there oh don't you remember the um british rail one this is the age of the train remember that that one? You don't. No, I blocked that out. Lest it trigger me. When was the last time you were triggered? Do you think you've ever been triggered? You know what? It depends what you mean by the term triggered.

And I actually think yes. How, well, you define what you think triggered means. I think it just means, you know, that you had some kind of trauma and, you know, something upsetting happened to you in your past and something just brings it back up again. Yes, it's not about offence necessarily. It's not necessarily about offence, it's about, we all have that bubbling within us, the sort of flotsam and jetsam of all of the bad things that have happened to us in our lives. Yes, it's an unwelcome reminder, smells often do it, it's often an olfactory thing, isn't it? Or watching a movie, something happens in a movie.

And I think, you know, that happens to be quite... I mean, that's what I mean by triggered. Yes, yes. As opposed to, you're right, it's taken on a sort of mantle of, like with the whole college camp. Well, it's associated with the whole culture of political correctness and trying to protect students from being upset by difficult subject material. Yes. And I don't think that's happened to me.

Or if it has, then I don't want it banned from my alma mater. No. I mean, that is the thing. Because it's very easy to be dismissive of PC culture and all that. But fundamentally, most PC culture is about trying to make the world a better place. Oh, God, yeah. Trying to be more understanding. And I have no doubt, I'm absolutely certain. You know, I wrote that book that was critical of public shaming on social media.

But one thing I'm absolutely certain of is that political correctness on social media, I don't really like that phrase, but it's making the world a better place. TV shows and movies are much more diverse. There's much more opportunities for people who didn't have opportunities before. Marginalized voices are having a voice. You know, all of this. You know, I feel like we're living through an incredibly positive social revolution. For me, the dark side of it is

what I write about in So You've Been Publicly Shamed. When people become harshly judgmental. Yeah, and then disproportionately punishing of people who actually didn't really do anything wrong. But, you know, I don't see that as social justice. I see it as like legitimized bullying. It's like a sort of, as somebody wrote about my book, a kind of cathartic alternative to social justice. But none of that means I don't feel incredibly happy and excited about the fact that we're living through an incredible social change. When you look back, you know, people are going to look back on that year, what, two years ago, when it was like the group photo of all the Oscar nominees, and they were all white. And there was one black face at

the back. Right. And people are going to look back on that in just a year or two's time and think, you know, what strides have been made. Although people were always being told that there was a survey that came out recently that was actually basically saying that diversity actually hasn't taken hold as much as you might think. But it does feel different.

It does feel different. It really does. And it will continue to feel different. It does feel different. And it really does. And it will continue to feel different. Yeah, and it's the early stages. You'll feel the repercussions maybe five years down the line or whatever. And I've already been in situations where, I mean, it's tricky because there are times, there are so many elements of it that are problematic when you become so hyper aware of certain things and when the atmosphere is quite critical and judgmental and you,

and you become paranoid about saying the wrong thing and things like that. I don't think that's positive, but you feel, but I think overall it's worth it. You know what I mean? It's like when you listen, did you listen to that, this American life episode recently with,

um, with Gavin McInnes and the Proud Boys? No. The alt-right club. No, no. It's quite interesting. And it is this group of, I mean, they've been called lots of things, meninists and disenfranchised white males who feel that things have gone too far and now they're being discriminated against but the point that the this american life episode was making was that actually those sorts of feelings starts out as being a kind of men's club of guys just saying hey look

we're not racist where we don't hate women we just like being guys and we don't think that there's anything to be ashamed of but actually it sort of crosses over or intersects with so many other things that become problematic. And actually, a lot of them or a few of them ended up at Charlottesville in the white power march. And actually, it was very easy for some of them to slide into just being racist, basically. Yeah. Yes. slide into just being racist basically yeah um yes so it is uh what was my point i don't know i guess just just that it's just that it is a a process that's so fraught but the process of being re-educated is sometimes very uncomfortable and embarrassing you know and i don't like being told off right what about that yes how are you how are you with don't like being told off. Right. What about that? Yes. How are you with that?

I hate being told off. I mean, who does like being told off? I, yeah, I hate it so much. And again, I, you know, I hesitate because I don't want to just become one of these anti-PC brigade who, I don't want to be on the side of the guys that end up going off to charlottesville you know what i mean i can't imagine you with a tiki torch adam no yelling jews will not replace us well i am worried about that you know one time i was backstage at jewish london on greater london radio yeah and i was promoting the film um dr maitola which is one of my earliest documentaries where i spent a year with an islamic fundamentalist yes that's right and uh uh there was another there was like

a guy you know who was on like before or after me and he was sort of really glowering at me and i was i had no idea who he was and he was just i was trying to make conversation with him backstage and then he just sort of looked at me like really crossly and he said you're only a jew and it suits you it's like oh yeah i mean it's true but also whoa yeah yeah you weren't sufficiently devout no exactly i was using my jewishness to promote tottenham Atolla, yet I did not build the succot in my garden when it was succous. I hope I've got those words right. I've got them wrong, fuck. What's the succous? Has it got like clowns and elephants? If I really want to go down this road, I want to just go on Google and make sure I'm getting the words right or else I'm just going to humiliate myself.

We'll leave it now. You're a Jew and it suits you. That's like 1996 he said that at me, 21 years ago. I'm still... Still rattled. I wouldn't say I was rattled, but I've never forgotten it. It's funny the things you remember. I'm out. Ooh, conversations I really like talking to you so much Thank you. well let's talk about the butterfly effect okay um what uh i've got that i've written down here what made you want to write a novelization of an Ashton Kutcher film?

Anyway, we'll get beyond that. The butterfly effect, obviously named after the concept that states small causes can have much larger effects. Yes. I sort of realized on the internet we never think about consequences. It started actually with, there was a moment in So You've Been Public Shamed when I was interviewing this guy who had basically led the charge against somebody and had that person's life just completely destroyed. And then two weeks later, I was interviewing this guy and he said, oh, I'm sure she's fine now. And she wasn't. I mean,

she was like in a heap. So I started thinking about consequences. And so I wanted to do something about consequences on the internet because I think we're forgetting about consequences quite a lot. And then I was wondering, and I thought, wouldn't it be interesting to do something where I take a tiny thing, like somebody making a decision somewhere, and then just for the entire series, just trace its consequences. And like, where will i end up if i

go from consequence to the consequence and then i thought well what what should i make it about and then this thing happened when i i was in a uh hotel i was interviewing this porn star i'd never met a porn star before and i was in this quite fancy hotel in los angeles and she was coming to see me so she was in the lobby and the receptionist phoned and said, your guest is waiting for you downstairs. And so I went downstairs and everybody else in the lobby was dressed, you know, like we're dressed now.

Casually. Yeah. And sort of, you know, muted colors and baseball caps. It's like the sort of white man's version of a burka. Just don't want to draw attention to yourself yeah if you're socially awkward um you know so everybody in the lobby was just like that except for the woman i was meeting who was just this kind of just like a sort of mad peacock in like a really tight colorful dress and high heels

and and i walked towards her i looked over the receptionist and he was staring at her and he didn't realize that I was looking at him, looking at her. And his look was a look of complete contempt, total disgust. And it made me think like, you know, you're fine with porn people on your computer, but you're not fine with them when they're in the same room as you. but you're not fine with them when they're in the same room as you. Because of your own fucked upness. So I started thinking about the lives of porn people and I realised that many, many porn people are very upset about one very particular thing,

which is this man called Fabian who devised this business plan to give the world free porn. And as a result, all the money in San Fernando Valley just went into Fabian's pocket. Fabian became incredibly rich and all the people in the valley lost all of their money. He set up the company that became sort of Pornhub and... Yeah, Pornhub.

Red Tube and all that. Red Tube, yeah. So Fabian became so rich that in his house in Brussels, he has an aquarium that's so big that a diver comes every week and jumps in and cleans the coral reef. And so someone said to me, it's like, you know, it's next level. You got your own diver. Whereas the people in the valley, you know, lost all of their money and now a bunch of them happen to go into escorting to pay the rent. And so I thought that's my, that's the thing. You know, the flap of the butterfly's wings is Fabian coming up

with the idea to give the world free porn. And I want to make a whole series about the kind of consequences of the tech takeover of the porn industry. Yeah, and you do it by painting these little vignettes of stories that came out of the valley in one way or another, and people whose lives were affected indirectly. We embed ourselves in the valley for about a year, spent a lot of time on porn sets.

How was that? You get desensitized quite quickly. Yeah, but I mean, I don't imagine, because Louis Theroux obviously did a porn show way back in the day, and he was on porn sets and stuff. And I remember asking him what that was like at the time. But even then, as a younger man, it was pretty obvious, like, that wouldn't be fun. But, you know, in some ways it is fun.

It's collegiate. You know, being with porn people was a lot of fun. So the hanging out aspect was fun. Yeah. But it's never sexy, though, right? No, it's not sexy. I suppose the very, very first time, it's like such a kind of shock. Yeah.

But then after that, you get a sense. I remember there was a time I was on the set of Stepdaughter Cheerleader Audrey. I love that film. And I thought, well, I've got all the audio that I need. Yeah. Why am I still here? Is it appropriate for me to stay? You wanted to see how it ended.

So I left. I thought, okay, I'm crossing that line between journalist and sleazebag. Right, right. So I left. But the porn people are lovely. You know, it's like being backstage at a theatre. They're outgoing, creative, supportive people. The trouble starts when the outside world impinges.

But they're not all like that, though, right? I mean, there's a lot of people who have been exploited, are being exploited. And are exploited. Are damaged in all sorts of ways. Oh, yeah. Have had very unhappy upbringings that have led them one way or another into that world. True.

Although you know where else you find people who are damaged and have had unhappy upbringings? Everywhere. I think what is true is that there are other places in the valley and certainly outside of the valley in places like Miami and Las Vegas where the porn world is more sleazy and disreputable. we decided to embed ourselves with with nice people yeah you were it was the slightly more creative sensitive end of porn you weren't with like the torture porn guys or no although you know but i but one thing i discovered um the day i was on the set of stepdaughter cheerleader audrey has proven to be quite a pivotal day in my life because two things happened that day which I think has sort of changed the course of my life. And one was the director, Mike, saying to me,

like when I started in porn, the films didn't really have titles like Stepdaughter, Cheerleader, Audrey. I said, so what was the very first porn film you made? He said it was called Women of Influence. He said the so what was the very first porn film you made? He said it was called Women of Influence. He said the problem is that all these tech people like, you know, taking over our lives means that there's this sort of arms race of search engine optimization going on. Everybody, we all have to like put as many, have to cram as many search terms into the title of our films as possible to like, you know, scramble our way up the Google search rankings.

Right. So stepdaughter, cheerleader and orgy are like three very searched terms. Yeah. So I said to Mike, you know, are there people who like fall between the keyword cracks that can't get work? And he said, yeah, if you're a 25 year old adult actress, it's almost impossible to get work because you're too old to be a teen and you're too young to be a MILF. Just live in this kind of...

Boring limbo. Yes. Ordinary. Hinterland. You sort of follow years between teen and MILF. Yeah. It's not like the internet all over, like on Twitter. Like if you're the political moderate, like me, you're not a teen and you're not a MILF. You just have to sit there.

So that was one realisation that thinking a lot about this in terms of gatekeepers, like, you know, you and I have both had to go to Channel 4, for instance, and convince the gatekeepers to let us in. And one of the great things about the internet is the idea that there aren't any gatekeepers to let us in. And one of the great things about the internet is the idea that there aren't any gatekeepers. But there are. It's these search engine wizards who are the ones who have basically created a milieu

whereby if you're not a teen and you're not a MILF, you can't get work as an adult actor. So those of us who are kind of naturally suspicious of gatekeepers, and I'm sure you and I are both those people, because we like being told what to do. Who sort of think of the internet as like a kind of gatekeeper-less egalitarian. Democratic utopia. Yeah. It's not. It's not. It's just the power has shifted to these sort of search engine people and tech billionaires. And that's getting more and more sophisticated. That's not suddenly going to

stop. It's getting more and more sophisticated. And Fabian Tillman, is it? Yeah. He was the flap of the butterfly's wings, the man who had the idea to basically get rich from giving the world free streaming porn. Yes. And towards the end of the butterfly effect, you go and you talk to him. And actually, he ends up talking to one of the people whose business was badly affected in the valley. And he defends himself very strenuously doesn't he yeah and you know what if it hadn't been if it hadn't been fabian it would have been somebody else right it was bound to happen one you know porn's always been at the forefront of technological advances but it kind of wasn't with the internet

youtube came along before pornhub did um so somebody was going to come up with the idea of youtube for porn. It just happened to be Fabian. And he says in his defense, well, actually, if you're talking about the effects of all of this, some of the effects seem to be that teenage pregnancy is down. And so that's a good thing, isn't it? But then, of course, the point is made that perhaps one of the reasons teenage pregnancy is down is because erectile dysfunction in young males is way up yeah because they're so desensitized they're watching all this porn i mean you know i suppose there is a possibility

that there's something else going on that we don't know about that is affecting these things but that does seem to be yeah a logical conclusion certainly because teenage pregnancy went down an erectile dysfunction shot through the roof um or um didn't at exactly the same time that streaming porn took over the internet yeah and then the other thing that happened in the day the stepdaughter cheerleader orgy was my discovery that one way that you know that these people who live in the sort of fallow years between teen and milf get work is to create these sort of bespoke porn companies right yeah where um like if you have a porn film that you desperately want to see made but it's so fucked up it doesn't exist because no one else has your fetish. You can now commission a professional porn people to make the porn film just for you,

an entire porn film for just one viewer. And when I found out about that, I just thought, God, this is good. This is amazing. That was my favourite part of doing the Butterfly Effect, I think was hanging out with the world of bespoke porn. And actually the ones that you focus on in that world of bespoke porn are sort of quite sweet.

They're not extreme at all. Yeah, deliberately. I was, you know, I never wanted the butterfly effect to be sexually explicit. Yeah. I think probably for three reasons. First, because I would have found that a bit squeamish as an older gentleman. Secondly, I wanted it to have a big audience. I didn't want it to put people off.

And thirdly, and probably most importantly, was because I thought if you take out the sex, you get to the humans quicker. And this is a story about people. So I deliberately chose, interestingly, non-sexual bespoke porn films. Because I thought they were more unexpected and they were just such an amazing insight into people's inner lives.

Well, there was one about a guy with a, what was it, with a fly swatter? Yeah, no, a woman. She just, it was just a fully clothed woman swatting flies. And she can't find the fly. Oh, damn it. Yeah. Obviously, you and I have never seen that porn and we wouldn't and we never would because we're not sick we're not we're not sick freaks we

wouldn't go on the internet just to see god women with no clothes on or men or whoever it happened to be just because what kind of person would do that i remember when i was in the frank side bottom band um once in a while i'd wake up like at three in the morning when we were driving back from some gig and like other members of the band would all be watching a porn film together. I never understood that. Yeah, that's, no. Was Frank still with his head on?

Absolutely not. I can't remember. There were times times my happiest times with Frank was when he would keep the head on for like much longer than he had to

it was such a magical it's a magical to be like driving up the M4 you know three in the morning sitting next to a man wearing a big fake head

of course yeah less magical when they were doing that watching Debbie Does Dallas. Right. Yeah. No, I've never understood that, that sort of communal porn watching.

No. That's really weird to me. Yeah. Because the whole thing about porn is that it's supposed to be, and sex in general, it's a little closed off private area of ourselves where we get to work out various things that for whatever reason we don't want to share with the rest of the world. It's too embarrassing or, you know, we get to be different people and we get to say funny things to our partners. This is why I really love the bespoke porn aspect of my of the butterfly effect because there's there was a

real tenderness between these people commissioning these films and the people making the films there was like a kind of two-way therapy going on and a real kind of heartfelt sincerity between these two groups of people the porn professionals and the porn fans. That was genuinely moving, I thought. The story you end the whole thing with is very affecting. I probably shouldn't say what it is so people can... But yes, you can tell that the people making the film, well, they end up sort of more or less making it for free, right? Because they're so keen to reach out to this person

who has first reached out to them i did a little live version of the butterfly flex at the ace hotel in los angeles and we invited some of our porn people along and one of them said the nicest compliment to us which was they said like you know we've been in porn for like so many years and whenever outsiders come in they're always in some way judgmental or pitying and on the very very rare occasion that they're not judgmental or pitying towards us they will be towards the our fans like the viewers like somebody has to be the bad person in this story but you you know meaning me and lean and my producer uh didn't didn't do that you were nice to everybody.

Well, you were scrupulously non-judgmental. When you take judgment out of the storytelling process, there's just room for other stuff. Yes, exactly. Oh, I like the guy who was, he was at a conference or something and he was just disgusted with the young people at the porn. He was a ex-porn performer himself. And he was just like, oh, standards are for these young people these days cell phones they're always on their phones and the fact is though is that you know that is what porn is going to become

um all the professional porn companies will die out or certainly most of them will die out and porn will become you know amateurs filming each other on their cell phones. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing culturally, but it's definitely a bad thing for the livelihood of all the people in the valley. Do you think that our generation is now sort of largely immune to the desensitizing effects of porn? to the desensitizing effects of porn and that actually it's a generation that's grown up with it that are going to have a different attitude to sex? Or do you think that?

Well, I think kind of positive and negative things are happening all at once. The valley right now is inundated with like young women, like 18-year-olds, coming to try and make it as porn stars in unprecedented numbers. And it's because they all grew up watching, this is another of Fabian's butterfly effects,

they all grew up watching Pornhub and think of porn and a career in porn as being completely normal. And in some ways, of course, that's very positive, right? They're not as fucked up as you and I about sex. No, I'm just judging. Sure, sure. You know what I mean. Judge away.

Yeah. The fact is, you know, my generation have, you know, our generation have kind of hang-ups about sex, which I think. Yeah, but in my defense, I would say that that's part of the point of sex. That's what makes sex fun, is to be hung up, not too hung up, and not so hung up that you're hurting people or yourself but you know for it to be a little private corner of your world not necessarily shameful you know what i mean like you don't have to go around hating yourself but it's

fun for it to be furtive and uh sure i know i hear you and and i mean my instinct but i haven't massively thought this through but my instinct is is that it's probably more healthy yeah okay to be an 18 year old who you know has no hang-ups about it at all yeah but i could be wrong but that's just my instinct no i mean the hang-ups the hang-ups are bad when when as i say when they start affecting other people and when it starts you know it becomes the cliche of the super religious person who goes and judges everybody else but secretly they're going back home to their bondage dungeon every night well that's what sadie smith said so brilliantly on your podcast i've quoted this a few times to people that said she said to you like um you know why do we always get so surprised like when you know so we know that people are

fucking mess yeah um you know when a homophobic politician turns out to be secretly gay happens all the time it's like we we shouldn't constantly be like hugely surprised by this because it just keeps happening yeah yeah but but a downside of the normalization of porn is that the valley's inundated with like you know 18 year old girls trying to make it in porn which means that they all get to work for like three weeks they turn up in the valley every producer that hasn't gone out of business because of fabian gives them work so they shoot millions of scenes for like three weeks. And unless they're kind of exceptional in some way and get signed by Mark Spiegler, become like Spiegler girls. Because Spiegler is like the kind of golden seal of approval agent in the valley.

After three weeks, the work completely dries up. They suddenly realize they're in L.A. They're not getting any more work. dries up they suddenly realize they're in la they're not getting any more work some of them go back home and there's like the constant shadow of the fact that there's loads of film of them having sex all over the internet which could come out when they become school teachers in 10 years time or some of them stay in the valley and become escorts because it's the only way they can make money to me it seems like there's more of a downside than all of that stuff's a downside but again what porn people would say yeah and i agree with them about this is that the the the badness isn't coming from

porn it's coming from outsiders judging like the reason why the valley is inundated with 18 year old girls is because tech people who never set foot on a porn set in their lives have taken over the industry. The reason why they'll get fired in 10 years time as a school teacher is because of the hypocrisy of the HR department at the school. But let's play devil's advocate for judgmentalism now. Okay. Maybe part of the reason that human beings like to judge and find it easy to judge is that that's the way we police each other yes and especially in a increasingly secular society and a society that's changing its values quickly like this society we haven't had the rules handed down to us by uh our priest or whoever it might be about how to behave and if you don't follow the rules you're going to go to hell a lot of us don't believe that anymore so it's up to each other to sort of say, no, that's not cool. You

can't do that. And those things that you used to learn from religion, we now get from each other, but it comes off as just judgmentalism a lot of the time. Yes. Well, it's the practical purpose of judging porn performers would be to dissuade people from entering that world which is so fraught with all kinds of problems. Just the idea that you're going to make your living from selling sex, your relationship to sex, which is such a fundamental and valuable and wonderful thing. Your relationship to sex is unlikely to survive intact after you've been a porn performer fair or not i mean i don't know any porn performers so maybe that's not true but i think there's a lot to talk about from what you just said but when it comes to sex i i would say like if a school you know if you are in porn for a couple of years and then you leave and you become a nurse and

you're a very good nurse but then porn hub comes along and all of your old scenes are suddenly out there for free yeah and you're suddenly getting recognized like way more than you used to because of porn hub yeah and then the hr department calls in and fires you on the spot no that's awful and the thing is that it's not like you know if if i met a porn performer and certainly someone who'd been fired from their job because they'd been unmasked as a porn performer i would be extremely sympathetic and i certainly wouldn't be saying well it's your fault you shouldn't have got into porn but yeah but you're saying before that you wouldn't be happy like you would be upset if your daughter got into porn yeah i would if she came to me and she said listen i've been watching a lot

of i've been watching a lot of porn i love it looks fun uh i hear i've been listening to uh john ronson's butterfly effect they all seem like a really sweet gang uh so i'm gonna go off and do that i'd be sad. Right. But you'd be sad with me too for influencing her to do it. If she referenced the butterfly effect, I would have to call you up and say, listen, this is partly your fault. But I mean, it's interesting because you're saying

like both the virtue, but also the problem in what you're saying all at once. I hope I would never judge anyone for being in that world, shoe but also the the problem in what you're saying yeah at once i wouldn't want to i i hope i would never judge anyone for being in that world but i certainly wouldn't encourage anyone to get into it one of the first things that one porn person said to me you know when i turned up in the valley for the first time was everybody who gravitates towards this business has a wisp of darkness to them i'm sure that's true. I read something the other day.

I've been reading up a lot about borderline personality disorder because it was a disorder that I didn't really know much about. And somebody said, somebody wrote that like lots of porn people presumably have borderline personality disorder, which, by the way, is like a form of PTSD. It's like a response to childhood abandonment and abuse and so on. So, yeah, I have no doubt about that. But as I said before, you know, people are fucked up everywhere. However, like I do hear you, like, about what you're saying about it's not necessarily the best place for somebody to end up. But I think the better way to think about it is what you said about, wouldn't it be better if this world

was not judgmental about porn people at all? And when they get out of porn, given that everybody in the world watches porn, pretty much, so there's a hypocrisy to all of this, wouldn't it be a better world that we don't judge porn people? I mean, I would never be naked naked on camera i would never do it and i would you know but at the same time

i feel completely non-judgmental of people who do and i understand that there's you know that a lot of people end up in that business for kind of dark reasons but i still don't judge them. right there. Did you see it? Have you got it? Where's my charger gone? Where's my phone charger? The battery's about to die. It was on the table. Round and round in their heads go the chord progressions, the empty lyrics and the impoverished fragments of tune. And boom goes the brain box at the start of every bar, at the start of every bar. Boom goes the brain box. books. Speaking of judging people, I read an article that you wrote a couple of years ago, I think, about Katie Hopkins. You did an interview with her. I never even realised that you'd done that.

Yes. That was fascinating. It was really an interesting exercise. I decided to like interview her not once, but like four times. So for people who are from perhaps outside the UK. She's Ann Coulter. She's Ann Coulter. There you go. And it seems to be that every few years, the culture needs to produce one of the, and it seems to be like a white woman, typically. And it's a very sort of specific thing, like a highly judgmental white woman. Yeah.

They've all got worse lately. I think Brexit and Trump has enabled that lot to all get worse. And that's obviously not to say that there aren't just as many obnoxious male so-and-sos. Oh, I was thinking of like, you know, Paul Joseph Watson as well. When I say worse, what I mean is obsessed with Muslims. Yeah. It fucking makes me so mad. Yeah. It makes me so mad.

And what was the spur for your meeting with Katie Hopkins? She'd just done this column that said, like, show me bodies in the water. I don't care about migrants. Right. They're like roaches. So she was talking like Nazis talk about Jews. And then I discovered at the same

time that she had, you know, sort of really, really bad epilepsy. Every night she would have epileptic fits in her sleep and would sometimes wake up with her arms out of joint and didn't think she would live much longer. As it happens, I think she had some really radical treatment after I met her, which means that I don't think that's a problem in her life anymore, though I'm not entirely sure about that. So I just became curious. I mean, it's what always drives me to do a story.

I just became curious, like, what is going on inside this person's head? And did she respond pretty quickly when you reached out? Yeah, she was completely into it. I had a bunch of Skype interviews with her, and then I met her in person. I think ultimately the piece did no good. In what way? I honestly thought I'd got somewhere with her. Oh, I see. You mean didn't like make her reassess her behavior. Yeah. I really thought that I'd managed to do that with her, but she's only got worse since. Yeah you say in the piece i once interviewed a prison psychiatrist james gilligan who told me that every murderer he treated was harboring a

central secret which was that they felt humiliated i have yet to see a serious act of violence says james gilligan that was not provoked by the experience of feeling shamed or humiliated, disrespected and ridiculed, he said. His conclusion, all violence is an attempt to replace shame with self-esteem. The implication being that people like Katie Hopkins... Yeah, have a kind of deep-seated sense of shame. And Donald Trump. Right, and they're sort of lashing out.

Yeah, actually I met James Gilligan again quite recently. He's taken an unexpected turn in his life, James Gilligan. You know, there's this big fight going on in psychology and psychiatry at the moment about whether it's responsible or not to label Donald Trump as seriously mentally ill. Right. And James Gilligan, surprisingly for me, is one of the yes, you've got to do it. Yes, you've got to label him mentally ill. Yeah, it's our duty. To out him as someone with serious mental problems. Yeah.

Who shouldn't be in. As someone who's dangerous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why does that surprise you? Because it's not particularly, it seems a bit hysterical. No, no, I think he, I'm not saying he's necessarily wrong. I just didn't think that he would be that sort of person because he's very anti-mental health labeling.

Okay. He spent his life, he's an amazing man. He was the Ben Kingsley character in Shutter Island was based on him. Oh, right. He spent his life in high security mental hospitals and prisons in Massachusetts and came to the conclusion that, you know, people aren't psychopaths, not like another species. They're people damaged. Like, you wouldn't go out and kill millions of people if you hadn't experienced shame on a massive scale as a child. So for him to come out

and say it's really important to say that we think Donald Trump, you know, we have a duty to warn the public about how dangerous Donald Trump is, know, we have a duty to warn the public about how dangerous Donald Trump is. Just seems slightly counterintuitive to the other things he'd said to me. When you say that, it makes me think of all the future psychopaths who are being created in the crucible of Twitter now. Alex Jones. Right. Oh, Alex Jones. How's he doing these days? Very well. Because that was another thing that I listened to this time last year.

I was listening to your podcast about him. And you were one of the people taking seriously the prospect of Trump becoming president and saying this is the kind of person that he's going to have as an ally. Someone like Alex Jones. And it all happened. It all happened. And as I was listening to it, I was still, I mean, it's so hard to remember how sure i was that it was just not gonna happen because all these smart people were telling us it wasn't gonna happen yeah i did think it was gonna happen even before he got the nomination you know something's up when msnbc i don't know

if it was then but certainly some networks instead, instead of showing Hillary Clinton giving a really important speech, were showing the empty podium from which Donald Trump would soon speak. You know, that's fucked up. And where is Alex Jones now? I mean, Alex Jones, for those who don't know, is a sort of right wing talk show host. Yeah, very kind of extreme. You know, the thing he's most notorious for is saying the Sandy Hook Massacre never happened. Right.

And then Donald Trump appeared on a show and told him what an amazing reputation he had. Alex is doing incredibly well. Was he welcomed into the inner sanctum at any point? Yeah, I believe he got White House credentials. And Trump, you know, went on a show and apparently called him after the election to thank him, helping him get elected. He's still a real cheerleader for Trump.

I don't think he's, I mean, you know, if Trump does something he doesn't agree with, Alex, you know, will sort of say, I don't agree with that. Like, I think some of his foreign policy stuff, like, I don't think Alex wants, you know, war and whatever. stuff like i don't think alex wants you know war and whatever and you were sounding a cautionary note about him even though you've met him on a number of occasions and actually sort of have a certain amount of affection for the guy yeah i mean he's a talented and charismatic broadcaster and he's you know he's quite hard work i mean especially if you're an introvert as a because he's not um so he can be quite tiring to be around, but he can be very pleasant and charming. And so on those sides, I like him. But the sort of malevolent power that he has spreading false information

tinged with racism is, you know, extremely damaging, particularly now that it's like, you know, setting the mainstream agenda. And this is a sort of ignorant question, but how does one get beyond the fact that someone like him is saying that this massacre of these schoolchildren at Sandy Hook never happened, was an elaborate hoax by the government? Yeah, for gun control reasons. How can you get beyond that when you're spending time with a person?

How can you find anything redeeming in someone like that? I mean, that sounds very judgmental of me now, but you know what I mean? No, I suppose it's just probably healthy to sort of try and... Just trying to look at the whole person, I suppose. I mean, you know, obviously once in a while somebody will do something that's so overwhelming that they deserve to be judged by that one moment of their life. You know, that is true. But Alex has been diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder.

So, you know, you have to add that into the mix too. You know, some people eventually prove to be so malevolent that you just start to hate them and that's happened to me on occasion i've met people who are just so awful i just hate them i've got to say you know now that alex has power you like him less i like him less yeah i do he's not coming around yeah for coffee this weekend. Relaxing with a group of people Sitting round a cool and jazzy sofa Everybody's eating cake and pies and crisps And sipping fizzy pop from cups

Relaxing with a group of people Sitting round a cool and jazzy sofa Everybody here is eating cake and pies Crispy zippy zippy zippy fizzy popcorn cups This has been a sort of different experience the first time we did this because the first time we did this you hadn't launched the podcast.

No, that's right. Yeah, in fact, wasn't I not like pretty much the first person that you interviewed? Yeah, one of the first. Yeah. In 2014 in New York. That's right. Yeah. In fact, wasn't I not like pretty much the first person that you interviewed? Yeah, one of the first. Yeah. In 2014 in New York. That's right. You rented a room in the Lower East Side.

Yeah. And the pipes, it was very Terry Gilliam, the pipes were screaming. It was quite a David Lynch-y. Everything, they were hissing and clanging and banging. And you were writing, so you've been publicly shamed. And I was feeling a little depressed and anxious. You were in a bit of a K-hole, yeah. I was and um i had taken ketamine that day had you no no maybe that's a new treatment for anxiety i mean that is a treatment for anxiety right

i don't even know what it is shut down it's a horse tranquilizer. I'm not going to take that. It's terrible. People take it recreationally. They love it. But there was no weight of success. But now I've listened to every episode of the Adam Buxton podcast. Now I feel a sense of responsibility to do it well. I think it's nice to be able to have lots of different kinds of conversations with different people, and I'm very excited that you're coming back. I always love your, you know, I love anything you do.

I always keep up with it. It's like genuinely one of those, it's like having a favourite band. You know, they release a new album, you're like, yes, here we go. I'm glad that you're back weekly. I didn't like those months when you weren't there yeah when it was erratic we just had to i just had to listen to the spoon interview over and over again waiting did you listen to the skiing one you know what the skiing one it felt a little bit to me like you know on the buses on holiday like the movie when they all there was a few people who felt like yeah so so actually that's probably the only podcast you've done that i've not listened to yeah only one but you but you

listened to it and didn't like it or you didn't listen to it i'd listened like the first 10 minutes and i thought this is really good but this isn't what i want from this thing right okay whereas the may martin one which i listened to yesterday i thought was just delightful yeah just just brilliant and introduced me to somebody who I'd never heard of and I'm now a fan of hers. Yeah, she's great. And podcast-wise, are you listening to, do you still listen to podcasts these days?

Oh, yeah, all the time. I listen to Pod Save America every time it comes out. What's that? Oh, it's so good. Pod Save America is, it's some people who used to work for obama and it's just a sort of twice weekly look at what the fuck trump's getting up to and they're just very funny and you should listen to it oh that sounds great yeah so i listen to that all the time i listen to

npr politics every time it comes out did you listen to s town yeah i listened to s town and liked it very much. Oh, yeah, I started listening to this thing, Script Notes. I was listening to it today. It's two screenwriters. John August and Craig Mazin. Yeah, talking about the kind of art of screenwriting. I find that really useful as somebody who's doing more and more screenwriting.

So I listen to Script Notes all the time. Oh, The Daily, which is the new york times daily podcast is incredibly good i listen to that all the time these are mainly american ones i'm talking about here yeah the more british ones um i still like answer me this helen yeah sure um there's a good washington post one called can he do that which is like how much power does the president actually have? Uh-huh. So a lot of Trumpy ones. I think those are the ones.

Oh, I've been really enjoying Song to Song, where every week they just talk about a different Tom Waits song. Is it always Tom Waits? It's always Tom Waits, and it's song by song from the first album through to now. What a cool idea. Yeah. They never get to talk to Tom Waits. No.

But it's kind of good. I'm learning things. I thought I knew quite a lot about Tom Waits, but I know nothing. I'm like Jon Snow. I'm like the Jon Snow of Tom Waits. I know nothing. Jon Snow from Game of Thrones or Channel 4 News. Yeah, Game of Thrones.

You like Game of Thrones, right? Yeah. i like the last series i did too people did people were down on it yeah i know but i loved it i was like yeah job done i thought the more nuanced complicated middle seasons were just a bit too nuanced and complicated for simple-minded me i was's like Zombie Dragon. Fucking great. Thank you very much. You know, if only I could pay more of a license fee or something. I much prefer this last season to every season since the third one.

Yeah, but you were aware that everyone was slagging it. Yeah, I just didn't get it at all. I just think, God, this confirms my secret fear that I'm stupid. I don't want to have to fucking think God, this confirms my secret, you know, fear that I'm stupid. I don't want to have to fucking think too much when I'm watching Game of Thrones. That's right. I agree.

Wait, this is an advert for Squarespace. Every time I visit your website, I see success. Yes, success. The way that you look at the world makes the world want to say yes. It looks very professional. I love browsing your videos and pics and I don't want to stop. And I'd like to access your members area and spend in your shop. These are the kinds of comments people will say about your website if you build it with Squarespace. Just visit squarespace.com slash Buxton for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, because you will want to launch, use the offer code BUXTON to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

So put the smile of success on your face with Squarespace. Yes. Yes. Continue. How dare you judge me? Hey, welcome back, listeners. John Ronson there. Thank you very much indeed to John for making the time to talk to me

and communicate through the night owl haze. The Butterfly Effect is available to download for free. You can hear all episodes in podcast form. They're available from iTunes and all the usual kind of podcast outlets or as a free audiobook from Audible if you're an Audible user. So thanks a lot to John.

Lovely to see him. A couple of bits of boring self-promotion before I bid you farewell. Come on, it's not boring. It's fascinating. Some people are very keen to hear news of upcoming live shows. In fact, some people are angry that my blog doesn't contain better updated news about forthcoming live shows. Well, that's for a couple of reasons.

Actually, it's for one reason, and that's because there really isn't that much news at the moment. There's a few gigs coming up. I've got, this year I'm doing some Bug Best Of shows because it's our 10th anniversary, or at least it was a few months ago, and we're carrying on celebrating it. So we're calling the shows Bug X. But the thing is that they haven't all been completely confirmed and announced.

Once they have been, I will do my best to post details on the blog. But you can always search. You can just put in Bug X if you're that keen. And I think a lot of people feel, or at least I get the impression from the mighty Twitter, you know, whenever I mention a show, people say, well, are you coming up north? Are you coming to Leicester? Are you coming to Aberdeen? Are you coming to Cardiff this time?

As if I am deliberately ignoring them by not coming to those places. That's not really how it works. I don't go on long tours. We sort of go where we are invited, if it's possible for me to do so. And that's how it works. Also, it's difficult because it has to be venues that can accommodate the tech requirements that we have.

We need a big screen and a meaty PA that I can plug my laptop into. And you'd be surprised at how many places are not in a position to offer that. Actually, maybe you wouldn't be surprised. This is boring, isn't it? I was going to just tell you about one Bug X show that is confirmed, and that is at the Bristol Comedy Garden. And it will be, as I say, a best of Bug show. Some of my favourite videos, YouTube comments and other little bits and pieces from the last ten years' worth of Bug shows. Most of the stuff is actually from probably the last five years

when Bug really got into the swing of things, in my opinion. Anyway, it'll be a fun show. Music videos, mainly, if you haven't seen Bug before. Not 1000% a comedy show, but still, it's very highly entertaining and there will be laughs. And as I say, once I know more about other Bug X shows or live events, I will no doubt let you know on my blog. adam-buxton.co.uk What else? The program I present for Radio 4, entitled You're Doing It Wrong,

continues its run this week, Wednesday morning at 9.30. It's only short, 15 minutes. It's also available as a podcast. Currently riding high in the podcast charts. How do the podcast charts actually work? I still don't really know. Is it number of new subscriptions? It's not number of total listens, surely. It's one of the many chart-based metrics that are, as far as I can tell,

almost completely meaningless. What else, what else? A few people asking me this week whether i was going to change the lyrics of the halfway through the podcast jingle i didn't actually have that jingle in this week's podcast but the lyric normally goes there's fun chat and there's deep chat it's like chris evans is meeting stephen hawking and of course this week sadly we lost the great theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking. So people were asking whether I was going to amend the lyrics subsequently. Well, no, I'm pretty sure the name Stephen Hawking will continue to be an effective benchmark for profound thinking. And indeed, great podcast chat. Anyway, okay, thanks very much for listening. Right to the end, you guys, come on. Hey, let's

lean in. We're gonna have a hug. I'm hugging you. Yep. No, I know I need a bath. You smell nice to me. Yeah, but that's probably because you've been rolling around i need a bath they smell nice to me yeah but that's probably because you've been rolling around in that fertilizer that they've been spreading around the fields that smells of a turkey's gooch but yet is attractive to my pooch who who loves to roll around in it. Where am I going to go with this, rhyme-wise? Because it smells of devil shit. There we go. Thanks very much indeed to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for podcast production support.

Where would I be without Seamus? Nowhere is the answer. And thank you very much to Jack Bushall for his edit whiz-bottary on this episode. And thanks once again to John Ronson and to you, podcats. Much appreciated. Take care of yourselves. Will you please, for goodness sake, watch out for the Russians. I mean mean i know they love their children too but flipping heck tucker i love you bye Give me like a smile and a thumbs up Nice take a pat when me bums up Give me like a smile and a thumbs up Nice take a pat when me bums up Like and subscribe

Like and subscribe Like and subscribe Please like and subscribe Give me like a smile and a thumbs up Nice take a pat when me bums up Give me like a smile and a thumbs up Nice take a pat when me bums up Like and subscribe Bye. ស្រូវានប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប� Thank you.