THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.75 - ELEANOR FRIEDBERGER

Episode Date: May 5, 2018

Adam talks with American musician Eleanor Friedberger.Hi. Adam Buxton here with some notes and links for you about this week’s guest.Eleanor and her brother Matthew formed the core of The Fiery Furnaces, who put out a series of brilliantly strange records from 2000 - 2011. Matthew and Eleanor now work on solo projects but haven’t officially laid the The Fiery Furnaces to rest.My conversation with Eleanor was recorded in February 2016 and we talked about some of her favourite albums, her working relationship with her brother, whether or not fans should be interested in the private lives of the artists they admire, and her lyrics. Eleanor also performed a version of one of her songs exclusively for the podcast. And in my outro waffle I bollock on about a couple of music documentaries I enjoyed this week. No, really, you’re welcome.FIERY FURNACES MUSIC MONTAGE in the intro includes clips from:Benton Harbour Blues (from Bitter Tea, 2006)Never (from Bitter Tea, 2006)Evergreen (from EP, 2005)Two Fat Feet (from Gallowsbird’d Bark, 2003)Chief Inspector Blancheflower (from Blueberry Boat, 2006)Tropical Iceland (from Gallowsbird’d Bark, 2003)Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production support.Music and jingles by Adam BuxtonRELATED LINKSELEANOR’S FAVOURITE ALBUMS (THE QUIETUS WEBSITE) (2016)http://thequietus.com/articles/19617-eleanor-friedberger-favourite-albums-interview?page=6ELEANOR FRIEDBERGER - MAKE ME A SONG (2018)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmjcSz8aV1YELEANOR FRIEDBERGER - HE DIDN’T MENTION HIS MOTHER (2015)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Dj0s16RMa0ELEANOR FRIEDBERGER - MY MISTAKES (2011)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRUOoSKt6KgTHE FIERY FURNACES - POLICE SWEATER BLOOD VOW (2006)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atFoVNJxr7cTHE FIERY FURNACES - CHIEF INSPECTOR BLANCHEFLOWER (2004)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qTkqFvftcETHE FIERY FURNACES - WHAT’S IN MY BAG? (ELEANOR & MATTHEW BUY RECORDS AT AMOEBA IN LA) (2011)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJUlMQ5PDL8&t=2sTHE SMITH TAPES - HOWARD SMITH INTERVIEWS GEORGE HARRISON (CD on DISCOGS)https://www.discogs.com/Eric-Clapton-George-Harrison-Howard-Smith-Clapton-Harrison-The-Smith-Tapes/release/11642294HIP HOP EVOLUTION TRAILER (2016)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm3J5640jXoTHE DEFIANT ONES TRAILER (2017)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP7b8xaWmG0 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human folk Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan. Hey, how you doing listeners? Adam Buxton here. Very nice to be with you.

I can't hide the fact that I'm feeling unusually up-tempo due to the great, great weather. As you'll know, I'm a simple man who is affected by these kinds of things very deeply. And I'm looking at a lot of dandelions, some bluebells, cherry blossom, buzzy bees. My beautiful dog friend Rosie is up ahead, sniffling, snuffling and scampering. And enjoying, weather-wise at at least an idyllic day just checking the forecast for the coming week oh golden balls golden balls golden balls golden balls with a bit of cloud golden balls with a bit of cloud it's mainly golden balls look at that okay look i won't go on too much about the weather.

Let's get into the meat of the introduction. Some people get very upset about a rambly introduction. I got a message last week from someone saying, you just wasted five minutes of my life with that intro. Five minutes. I mean, that's a very important person there whose time is extremely valuable. But I couldn't help thinking that there whose time is extremely valuable, but I couldn't help thinking that if their time is that valuable, why are they flushing more valuable

seconds down the toilet by composing that message and sending it to me? I don't know. Anyway, here is what I hope is a useful intro for this week's guest on podcast number 75, American musician Eleanor Friedberger. Let me tell you a little bit about Eleanor. She and her brother Matthew formed the core of the Fiery Furnaces, a brilliantly strange indie band that was together from 2000 to 2011 and are, according to the internet, simply on hiatus. As Matthew and Eleanor pursue solo projects,

for those of you not familiar with the Fiery Furnaces, I thought that I would just cobble together a very short series of musical moments from some of their albums, just to give you a very vague sense of what they're about. Not suggesting these are their greatest moments, they're just some moments. Go moments. Go Moments. Dear little hemlock shoe You can tell me anything that you want Except I started seeing Jenny I started seeing Jenny. I started seeing Jenny. Tropical, icy, icy.

Fiery Furnaces moments there. You will find a list of the specific tracks in the description to this podcast, along with other related links. Now, Eleanor's solo records are perhaps overall a bit more straightforward than The Fiery Furnaces, but no less enjoyable. Her song My Mistakes is one of my favourite songs of all time. Here's a bit of My Mistakes. I love it. I also love the video for My Mistakes. It's directed by New York-based artist Sarah Magenheimer, also linked in the description for this podcast.

And it includes grainy video footage of Eleanor, shot when she was about 10 years younger at that point, preparing to go out on a date with her then-boyfriend, Brit Daniel, lead singer of Spoon, who regular listeners will know I'm a big fan of, and they appeared on episode 47 of the podcast. Now, I mention that only because at one point in our conversation, Eleanor expressed her frustration with music journalists and with people like me who find it necessary to bring up aspects of an artist's private life in that way.

But as you'll hear, I do my best to argue the case for finding it interesting without, I hope, here, I do my best to argue the case for finding it interesting without, I hope, being disrespectful. Now, my conversation with Eleanor was recorded one dark, cold afternoon in February 2016, before she played an acoustic show at East London's Moth Club. The recording has been sat in the backlog file because I'm a big fan of Eleanor's, and I came away from our meeting, which was the first time I'd met Eleanor, feeling that I hadn't really done a particularly good job talking to her. But then I listened back the other day and I really enjoyed it. So I thought you might enjoy it too, especially if you're a music fan, which I know many of you are, and especially because now Eleanor has a new

record out, Rebound. So despite being a little late, it seemed like a good moment to put this out. I was listening to Rebound on a loop yesterday. Very good. I think it's one of Eleanor's best. Here's a little moment from the recent single, Make Me a Song. Two hundred fifty-three octaves The middle sea There's a beef like wind Wave every year

I could love you more I could love you more That's Make Me A Song from Rebound, Eleanor's new album. But our conversation back in 2016 began on ground that will be familiar to regular listeners with me asking elena about negative criticism before giving her a couple of gifts i'll be back with more hot waffle and recommendations at the end of the podcast but right now here we go Ramble Chat, let's have a Ramble Chat. We'll focus first on this, then concentrate on that.

Come on, let's chew the fat and have a Ramble Chat. Put on your conversation coat and find your talking hat. Unless you're a musician that massively crosses over, then fans tend to be very loyal and respectful, don't you find? No. I think people say like, whoa, look at her stupid hair or whatever. I think people always find a way to be mean.

Are you aware of getting comments like that though? A little bit, yeah. Look at her stupid hair. Is that one you've got? Something like that, yeah. What else? Was it worse when you were with the fiery furnaces? Or is it worse now you're on your own?

The comments? I don't know. No, I really do try. I'm kind of joking. I try hard not to look at that stuff. Right. You don't want to encourage it. My brother, on the other hand, loved looking at the negative stuff like that.

He really fed off of that. Did he genuinely because he's thick skinned or he just couldn't? He was like he liked to pick at the scab. Maybe a little bit of both. Probably picking at the scab. Because I never believe people who say that they're not affected by those things. My comedy wife, Jo, we used to do a radio show together. And there was a time when we were

at a station called xfm and um he would look at the computer and we'd get like just loads of negative comments right shut up play some records you're twats right right he reckoned that it didn't affect him he was like i don't mind but i couldn't i couldn't deal with i couldn't concentrate on the show if i saw any of them. Maybe that he was a sociopath. I think that might be part of it. I was talking about last night if there was a difference between sociopaths and psychopaths. What's your understanding? Well, I was saying that a psychopath is not a real medical term.

I think that's just kind of like something maybe someone said in a movie. Okay. Sociopath is like an actual psychiatric term for somebody who doesn't care about the comments. Okay, okay. Someone who is able to read YouTube comments with impunity. No, like my brother would revel in bad reviews. Revel and just love it. He said. Meanwhile, he would, just love it. He said. Meanwhile, he would... Just laughing, laughing, laughing.

He would go into his bedroom and he would cry and cry and cry. I don't think so. Are you right, really? I don't know. Mentioning psychopaths and sociopaths. Do you have candies right there? Yeah, I do. I brought you some gifts.

And I'm the kind of person that is so unimaginative that when they buy people gifts, they just buy things that they themselves like. Oh, I'm the same. My gift giving, it's always just for me. Yeah, exactly. Sometimes I buy multiples of the same thing. If I buy something nice, I'll immediately buy another one

and think, well, that'll be a good present. Right. So I've bought you three of my favorite things. Talking about psychopaths and sociopaths, have you read this book, John Ronson?onson so you've been publicly shamed no he's a british journalist and he's been on this podcast he's a friend as well and he wrote a book called the psychopath test which was oh wow one of his big hits as an author well that's a real coincidence that I mentioned that. Yeah. And so there's a lot of that kind of chat within that book. But it goes into the whole world of people categorizing mental illnesses and the money that there is to be made from it and how dangerous it can be to... Hearing people say like, he's on the spectrum. Like, I mean, we never heard that. I never heard that a couple of years ago.

That, to me, seems like a real new thing. That's right. I talked to John about that exact thing. This is his latest book. But who knew that almost everyone I know is on the spectrum? Well, that's the thing. I mean, this is what John and I chatted about. I think pretty much everyone is, don't you?

I mean, everyone is more or less. And the older you get, the nuttier you get. Yeah, I guess. You pick up just a load of neuroses and tics and kinks and right and you are and people distinguish themselves by being variously good at hiding them as far as i can tell you know some people are brilliant at it yeah and they look totally normal and other people wear their peculiarities on their sleeves a little bit more and maybe they're, so they have an excuse.

You know what I mean? Anyway, this is a book called So You've Been Publicly Shamed. And it's about the whole world of online shaming and Twitter storms and people saying the wrong thing and just finding themselves with their lives totally destroyed by people condemning them for saying that. Right. It's very, I mean, it's really fascinating. Is that the kind of book that you might read? It's, it's funny because I suffer from insomnia sometimes. And now I know myself well enough to know when it's happened, why it's happening, when it's happening and all that kind of stuff. And it's all about just being overly anxious about certain things. And I fall asleep immediately,

but I wake up at 3 or 4 in the morning and stay up for a few hours. I should get up and read a book maybe when that happens, but instead I just toss and turn, and my mind is going to explode from too many thoughts and things like that but i feel like i don't know if this is going to make it worse well i mean it's pulse quickeningly horrific yeah um but will this like you know make my anxieties i would say it would intensify them yeah okay i mean ultimately in my mind it's a the whole book is a kind of a plea for tenderness, you know, in the net age.

I think it feels like early days for a lot of social networking and people getting used to interacting with each other online, you know. I think people are gradually getting used to the fact that these things matter, their words matter, and their actions online really have terrible consequences sometimes.

Anyway, so that's a gift for you. A little plug for John there as well. I bought you a picnic bar. This is my current favorite chocolate candy treat. I'm not allergic to peanuts. You're not? Good, good. Otherwise, yeah, you'd be stuffed with this gift. I love peanuts. I mean, this is something I came to late in life because I did not like peanuts when I was younger. Okay. I just thought that any kind of nuts just

seemed too healthy. Same with raisins. I was like, mate, you've got no place in an enjoyable snack tree. What are you doing? I just wanted solid chocolate and caramel. I might eat that while we're talking. Do it. I like to put them in the fridge and then bite into them so they shatter. Okay. What's your favorite sweet snack normally? I don't have a massive sweet tooth.

Lately I've been eating these ginger chews, they're called, and it's just like a chewy ginger. Very nice. Somehow that seems healthy. Well, this is the healthiest. Oh, my gosh. You got some...

More raisins. Midnight jumbo raisins and cashew nuts. That's really up my alley. The only thing with that, I don't know about you, but it causes some incredible airborne toxic events. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. And so...

I look forward to eating that on the train up to manchester tomorrow well there you go train is ideal train or an airplane because then you can chuff away with um relaxation without anyone knowing i've been a fan of your stuff for a while you're one of the artists who i like more and more the more i hear and the more I find out about them thank you thank you that's that's really because I was sort of told it is a real drag yeah well it does happen though doesn't it yeah sometimes you're into stuff and you read interviews or whatever anything oh I tend to not read too much about the people that I admire, or who I think I admire, for that reason.

I read a piece for The Quietest, where you went through some of the albums that you really love. They let me kind of make up a category. The records I've listened to the most times, from beginning to end, meaning not like, oh, I like tracks three and four, but it was actually like I put it on, I listened to the whole thing and then often listen to the whole thing again without stopping. And some of the ones that stood out. And there's not that many, you know, like when you think about when you give yourself that, it's actually not that easy.

I think one that springs to mind for me, a more modern one is Teenager of the Year by Frank Black. Okay. I haven't heard that one. Do you like the pixies and frank black and that kind of thing i like them but i'm they're they've never been like one of my bands i don't own a pixies album but i've been surrounded by people who love the pixies and i've seen the pixies and i know all you know that's one of those bands where like i saw them on one of their reunion tours but it was probably over 10 years ago now and like you see a band you don't have one of their records tours, but it was probably over 10 years ago now. And like you see a band,

you don't have one of their records, but you know every single song they play. Yeah, sure. I mean, in my mind, their music, and especially his solo stuff, is quite similar to yours. But I would imagine that it's the same for musicians that it is with comedians.

When people sort of say, I'll tell you who you'd really like is this other comedian who does something similar. And you think, no, I don't like them at all. Because no, A, they're too similar. And I don't, I feel threatened by them. And B, you kind of tend to gravitate towards otherness, don't you? Things that are not like yourself. When you were telling me about your YouTube show, I almost said, oh, that reminds me of, and I stopped myself. Who were you thinking of there? I mean, I don't, oh, that reminds me of, and I stopped myself. Who were you thinking of there?

I mean, I don't get offended by it. Well, I was like, oh, it's kind of like Eugene Merman, who does a lot of stuff kind of like that. See, I don't feel threatened by him because he's American and he's not here all the time. Okay. But yeah, I've been told that before. And in fact, I was put on a bill with Eugene when David Cross came and did some shows at the 100 Club.

with Eugene when David Cross came and did some shows at the 100 Club. And it was Kristen Schaal and Eugene Merman and myself and Todd Barry. Oh, cool. So, yeah, kindred spirits, I think. I felt very honored to be included with them. The last time that happened to me that I remember, this woman came up to me and said, oh, have you heard this guy Bob Trimble? And then, like, totally obscure,

but this label had reissued one of his records. She said, the song My Mistakes sounds exactly like this song, the first song on his album. And I was really curious because I was interested in her opinion, you know, and I went and listened to it. And I was like, this doesn't sound anything like it. But I loved it. I loved it so much. Oh, that's cool. So I was just like, sometimes it's nice.

So some of the records you picked out, though, are some of the ones that I really it. I loved it so much. Oh, that's cool. So I was just like, sometimes it's nice. So some of the records you picked out, though, are some of the ones that I really love. I mean, Van Morrison, Astral Weeks. That's obviously an album that tops a lot of polls. I know. Well, that's why I was a little bit embarrassed by my list, because they're all very famous, mostly very famous albums. But it's a good example of a record that still feels like your secret because you don't hear it everywhere you go that's true it's not used on commercials it's not used in films right it's not on the radio really right and that's an album that i've been listening to

consistently since i first heard it probably when i was 14 and i i there aren't very many albums that i've been listening to every year for that many years you know and that's definitely one of them and he's somebody who like you hear on the radio but like you said you don't hear that record on the radio and now I've like gravitated I'm such a I'm a huge fan Morrison fan and now because I know

that record so well I don't listen to it so much so now I've like listened to some of his other more obscure records that I you know like Veeden Fleece more obscure records that i you know like um viedenfleece and common one or i was just like what you know that's the kind of stuff i can also just put on and leave on and just play over and over again and never get sick of did you buy the the new remaster of astral weeks i did not what kind of nerd are you i recently got a copy as a gift of like a, you know, vinyl reissue, but it doesn't have like, I don't know if it's special.

Right. So you're not someone who the mere existence in the public realm of alternate versions of tracks on Astral Weeks doesn't fill you with vibrating excitement. I didn't know that they exist. Now I'll go and listen to them now that you mentioned it. with vibrating excitement. I didn't know that they existed. Now I'll go and listen to them now that you mentioned it because recently I heard some different versions of stuff on Moondance

that I'd never heard and I was like, holy shit, this is amazing. You know, but I'll seek that out now that you mentioned it. You know, I mean, it's not, you probably won't be listening

to them over and over again. You never know. Yeah. But they are quite different. His phrasing and his voice is is an instrument in itself yeah totally yeah i heard a different version of into the mystic which is a song i've heard a gazillion times and just hearing him just sing a few things differently which to me was a revelation completely as a singer like i was just yeah i mean i've sung along with him so many times and

copied his phrasing exactly so then to hear him sing one line that you know so well differently it was really fun to hear yes it's like you're getting a private concert or you're because i don't know if you've ever had this fantasy but sometimes when people talk about time travel the main thing i think about is going back and seeing some of my favorite bands when they were just playing tiny venues, you know, and also recording some of those songs, you know, I mean, I'm quite a massive nerd in that way. I watch all the classic albums, documentaries and things like that. I love all that shit. And as soon as you get a balding guy going through and raising faders on a mixing desk with the original masters, I get very sweaty and excited excited and when you hear those alternate

versions it does feel as if you're eavesdropping on the session right my friend danny he's got these new dylan reissues where there's like 25 versions of like a rolling stone right well i recently heard like the two other versions of went to see the gypsy that's like one of my favorite dylan songs for some odd reason and just hearing those two versions i listened to see the gypsy that's like one of my favorite dylan songs for some odd reason and just hearing those two versions i listened to them over and over i mean it's just yeah i don't know what it is about those alternate takes i think it is just because you're so used to what you know and then when you hear that there was a different way you know it's just like mind blowing yeah it's thrilling um and the george harrison stuff like his demos are like oh those

are my favorite because you hear those you know phil specter produced that album and then you hear these stripped down versions of just george playing guitar and singing in his beautiful voice and it's just like heaven to hear that are you the are you sufficiently nerdy that you would listen to interviews just with George? Like there's a guy, I forget his name. I'll get Fact-Checking Santa to interrupt the podcast and let me know his name. But this guy recorded a load of interviews in the 60s and 70s with massive stars. He did a load of stuff with John Lennon. Hello, Fact-checking Santa here. George Harrison was interviewed by New York DJ Howard Smith in

May 1970, a few months before the release of his solo album, All Things Must Pass. The recording can be heard on the Smith tapes. Merry Christmas. tapes. And George Harrison is just completely mind-blowingly candid about all kinds of things that any sort of artist would never be candid about these days, you know, especially money. And he's talking numbers and he's talking about how much he owes the tax man. I mean, he's always going on about money, wasn't he, George Harrison? But he's talking about people writing him begging letters for money and how he's actually given some guy wrote him a sob story about how shit his life was. So Harrison ended up sending him like 25 grand or something.

Crazy. I'm surprised they didn't get to include that in the Scorsese documentary that he made for HBO. Oh, yeah. Which I loved, but I'm surprised they didn't access those interviews. Yeah. Anyway, Van Morrison, yeah, I love the guy. However, he's a good example

of someone you maybe wouldn't want to meet in real life. Exactly, yeah. Perfect example. I've never been one of those people like, oh, I want to meet my heroes. Nothing to say. I would love to see him perform. I've never seen him perform, but I definitely don't need to go and shake his hand or whatever one might do clean up his poo after after he's pooed in the middle of your hotel room is that something he's known to do i've heard that

story i haven't heard that i didn't don't like if he gets a bad hotel room i don't know there's a lot of stories flying around probably they're totally untrue and it's just based on people getting bent out of shape because he wasn't sufficiently excited to meet them. Right. You know what I mean? Is that real melody? Have you seen my phone charger? What?

What? I left it right there. What? What? Did you see my phone charger? I left it right there. Did you see it? Have you got it? Where's my charger gone? Where's my phone charger? The battery's about to die. It was on the table.

Round and round in their heads go the chord progressions, the empty lyrics, and the impoverished fragments of tune. And boom goes the brain box at the start of every bar. At the start of every bar. Boom goes the brain box. It's cold in this room.

It is cold, yeah. We're sat in a kind of dingy, it's like a working men's club. And this is the upstairs bit, all red upholstered bonquets and wood panelling. But there's no lights on. And there's no heat. There's no heat. The sun's going down outside. So I'm actually struggling to see Eleanor and now i've got quite bad eyesight anyway so do you mind me asking you

about fiery furnaces or is it something that makes your heart sink when no but sometimes now when people ask me about and i i genuinely don't remember lots of things and i don't want that to sound like i'm trying to avoid the question, but it's been, you know, we started playing together 16 years ago. And so sometimes it's hard to remember specific things. Yeah, of course. But I'll try to answer anything you ask me. Matthew is the name of your brother. That's true.

And Matthew encouraged Eleanor's music ambitions by buying her a guitar and a drum kit. True. Eleanor's father, and Matthew's father, because they're siblings, was English. Their mother was American. True, she's Greek-American. Eleanor was the catcher on a softball team when she was a child, an indication, she has said, that she has the necessary leadership skills to be a band leader. Not just a child, but a teenager even.

Why is that a position of, I don't know about sport or softball or anything like that. Do you know who the catcher is? The catcher sits behind. I'm imagining it's someone who actually catches the ball. Sits behind home plate. Yeah. You know, the pitcher throws the ball to the catcher. But the catcher is the one who supposedly calls the plays and lets the whole, you know,

everyone on the field is looking at the catcher. So the catcher's got his or her hands up and saying like, you know, out at second, blah, blah, blah, telling everyone what to do. I do attribute playing sports and being, more importantly, being good at sports is like helping me and for the rest of my life kind of get by.

Something that gave you confidence. Oh, for sure. I mean, the confidence building. Yeah. Yes. Very important. And I suppose. And playing with other people.

Right. Being in team sport especially is like being in a band. Uh-huh. Learning how to win and lose gracefully, graciously. Yeah. The confidence thing is really the biggest part, you know, because I was like just naturally gifted for some reason, like kicking a ball and like kicking a ball up in the air

so it would go in the goal. And when you're a little kid, it wasn't just rolling on the ground, but if it went up in the air, like it was impossible to stop. And having that when you're five years old, it really ingrains this thing in you that was lucky for me, I suppose. Well, it was always my dream to be able to make a ball go where I wanted it to with my foot.

But I mean, it's terrible. And I know for the people who weren't necessarily as good, it's equally bad. And I was the kid, we'd be separated in school and it would be mostly, mostly the boys, and then two or three horrible losers put with like, most of the girls, and then like,

one or two girls put with most of the boys. And I was one of those girls. And, you know, really, it made a big impact on me. See, I was one of those horrible losers who was picked last for the team. But look at you now. Look at me now, exactly. And look at the fact that music has forged an alliance between us two and we could have been mortal enemies. Me staring over at you thinking, she's one of the jocks.

Well, right, and I think I was lucky enough to grow up in an environment where I was friends with a lot of jocks, I'm putting my fingers in quotation marks, but who were also equally interested in music. And by the time I got to college, I found there was a bigger gap between, you know, you either liked music or you're good at sports and you were like a frat boy. But I always was looking for those people who equally liked sports and music. And they do exist. Yes. Robert Pollard is a good example. He's a real jock. Yeah, of course they exist. I mean, it's like a lazy thing to say, isn't it? Is that it's like when comedians say, oh, you can't have a good looking comedian because it's not for you. You know, comedies for us misfits, us ugly people. Right. And when when a good looking comedian, whether they're male or female, comes along. Right. Everyone's like, oh, that's not cool, that's not fair.

Right. No, it's nice, you know, to be well-rounded. It is nice, isn't it? I would love it. Okay, when you were in the Fiery Furnaces, obviously a part of the interest for journalists, and I suppose for fans, was the mystery of the dynamic between you and your brother right is that fair to say well I don't know what people are I can't comment on that

well here's a quote from a guardian article from 2003 I think people wanted to not sorry to interrupt you I think people wanted to put us at odds against each other. And that's not mysterious. That's just people trying to create drama and something interesting to write about. But I don't think our relationship as a brother and sister was that unusual. He's an older brother. He bullied me as a kid. We were also best buddies at times. And he's domineering because he's my older brother.

I don't think that's so unusual. But you don't have any lasting mental scars. Well, I think I do. Other than the normal ones. I think I have plenty. And I have literal scars, you know. My brother was very sort of, I mean, I've talked about this before. So I'm not, I'm not like betraying.

Yeah, I mean, like, you know, he actually stabbed me with a pocket knife when I was a child. How old were you? I was maybe three or four. Oh, my. That's too young to be stabbed by a pocket knife. Yeah, I mean, well, my parents were the ones to blame. It was a little, small Swiss Army pocket knife. Oh, come on.

And how old is he then? He's how much older than you? He's four years older. So I'd say he then? He's how old? He would have been, he's four years older. So I'd say he was either eight or nine and I was four or five, something like that. Flipping heck, Tucker.

But I mean, he was very aggressive. I guess. I mean, he still claims it was an accident, but it wasn't, he was holding the knife over me, you know? Right. But I mean, I would love to talk about how frustrating it is that

people who are supposed to be writing about music are not writing about music. They're only trying to find some kind of personal story to tell. And is that because people don't actually want to read about music? Or is that because music is so difficult to write about? And we only want to read like a gossip rag. And it just seems to be more and more the case. I think there's an assumption that people don't really care about music that much. But that's not true. Of course it's not true. No, but on TV, for example, the wisdom is don't have bands on because people will switch off.

But I'm talking about places where music is actually supposed to be written about. Like a music website, for instance, that starts with a P, you know, like, yeah, they don't really write about music, even the actual music. Sure. But I think that all those places, you know, because even shows that are ostensibly about music, people get cold feet on TV and think, oh, well, we can't have certain bands on because they're too difficult, they'll be too challenging and people will turn over. And I think maybe it's like that for journalists who are writing supposedly about music.

They think, well, hmm, we need something to hook people in. We can't just say, oh, look, there's this band because people go, oh, it's just another band, I'm not interested. You need to hang it on some kind of salacious peg. That sounds like a character from the new Star Wars movie. But the sad bit is that usually those things, they're not that salacious and they're actually just really kind of boring. And who cares? They're not interesting either because we're not that interesting people, you know, like, it's just not mentioning my ex boyfriend, who, you know, been apart from for over six years. Is there is that worth mentioning? You know, like, I've had a lot of boyfriends since then. Like, why? Why do you need to mention that? I have to say that it

was interesting to me. It was interesting to me, because I had no clue i i was a spoon fan a fan of the band spoon oh yeah for a long time without knowing there was any connection between you two uh-huh because you had a relationship with brit daniel the lead singer right yeah and i mean it was just sort of in fact i think i found out because i saw you in sydney and you mentioned it before playing one of the songs oh that's right i used to play one of his songs yeah yeah so i was like oh there you go that's interesting i didn't know that and then i found out that he'd even written a song about you for you uh anything you want which is a song i really like so it was it was enjoyable for me to have those universes intertwine in that way uh-huh i didn't know

you'd gone out with alex capranos from franz ferdinand uh-huh so that's interesting as well and it's like he wrote a song as well for you so it's fun for a music nerd to know these things do you know what i mean yeah i guess you can understand that right yeah i mean it must be weird for you obviously especially yeah no i was just going back to what we were talking about originally that you know journalists right playing up a sort of negative kind of dynamic between my brother and i and the and i'm just trying to put it back to like oh is that the same as mentioning an ex-boyfriend or something i guess it is part of the i suppose it is the same i suppose what i I'm trying to say is from the other side,

from the reader's side, I don't think you can always dismiss those things as being completely meaningless. Right. But as I was going back to Van Morrison again, I don't...

I've heard that he's kind of an asshole, you know? So I don't want to read anything. I don't need... Nothing you could tell me about him is going to change how I feel about his music, you know? And it's not going to add, I don't think so.

I don't think so. And I don't want it to, you know? I agree. So I don't care about who he went out with or his sister, you know, it just doesn't, so I want people to feel that way about me too. I mean, it's the same as a more extreme example, like I'm obsessed with woody allen movies

i don't i don't want to know i don't want to know anything except i just want to know about them i just want to see the movie and have the movie still in my mind i don't know what i don't want to know about well that's an interesting private life absolutely i listen i feel the same way as you and and of course um objectively empirically there shouldn't be any real, yeah, there's lots of brilliant artists who are thoroughly mediocre human beings. And it shouldn't detract from the value in their art. But it's harder and harder, don't you find? Have you seen a Woody Allen movie since the allegations about him have been public? Yeah, I have.

And did it feel strange? Did you think about that at all? As I was watching it, no. I mean, I don't think they're as good as some of the movies that I love that were before those allegations, but I'm not sitting there watching and thinking about what he's done or hasn't done. Yeah, you're involved in the work.

Yeah. Just because I flagged it so many times, I'm going to read the quote. As she watches her brother, Eleanor, 27, raises her eyes and exhales softly. Not for the last time today, her face arranges itself into an expression pitched between incredulity and weary resignation. In fact, she spends a fair percentage of our interview looking like that. She also has a habit of repeating her brother's more outré ideas in a deadpan voice, giving the impression they rank among the most idiotic things

she has ever heard. Oh, my God, where the fuck did you find that? That's actually, he's a good writer, Alex Petridis. Oh, yeah, I remember him. That's funny. I mean, I have to say, looking back on, one of the things that I did really dislike about being in the band with my brother

was doing interviews with him. I mean, that was torture. There are some... Some torture. Right, there's interviews with you on YouTube, and there is a kind of crackly chemistry there i mean we could if we were both in a good mood it would be fun and we i could you know be the straight man and we had this little thing you know but just sitting you know

like it would just it was a waste of time in the end like i should have done an interview and he should have done an interview and we could have done more interviews that way it was just it is so it's a lot of torture to have to have this partner as maybe you know about like to just sit and wait and then listen and then try and come up with something else to say and it's just it's hard unless you're on and you're doing a routine like like i said sometimes we were able to do and that was fun otherwise it's just kind of like just torture it can be really tough but but but do you think that that sense of um torture was something that you were able to use on stage then because like sometimes like there's a clip on youtube of you looking quite irritated with each other but then you launch into a version of police sweater blood vow, which is great.

And it's really crackly in the same way that the relationship had been crackly before then, you know what I mean? It's not a question so much as a thing that I just said. No, I think I'm sure you're right. You know, I can remember having feeling a lot of tension on stage and that feeling exhilarating. And then other times, you know, feeling relaxed. We had, sometimes, you know, my brother is the kind of person that, you know, his mood, you know, affects the whole room kind of thing. And a lot of people are like that. I think I was like that with Joe.

And that can be very difficult sometimes. like that with Joe. And that can be very difficult sometimes. So if he was angry and upset on stage about something, usually about a technical thing or just the way something sounded, it would be very nerve wracking for everybody. So was that something then that you were looking forward to not having to deal with? Yes. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Right. And has it proved to be that way? Have the pros outweighed the cons or do you miss being part of a unit? Do you feel unpleasantly exposed on your own? I generally feel a lot more relaxed and comfortable as, you know, in my role

is like getting to tell other people, oh, can you turn that amp down? And having someone say, okay, and not be like, no, I'm not going to fucking turn my amp down. It's generally more pleasant for me. Yeah. And the music sounds very different as well. I mean, when you were in the Fiery Furnaces, how did that work?

Were you both on the same page musically? Would he sort of make these crazy collages and then you would write lyrics for them? It was different all the time. I mean, it was sometimes how I write songs now, which is I'll, you know, have a chord structure and a melody and lyrics and I would give that to my brother and he would either elaborate or completely tear it apart and rearrange everything or just, you know, add flourishes, kind of like instrumental flourishes. Or sometimes I would just hand him a piece of paper with the lyrics and he would set the lyrics to music.

Sometimes he would say, here's the song, sing it. Sometimes he would say, well, I've got this. Do you want to add anything or change? So we had a few different ways of working together. But overall, I mean, I'm totally fine with saying he was absolutely the music director of the band and really set the tone for how our band sounded. And although we had a back and forth about lots of things, I mean, he almost always won out.

But he was also always, I have to give him credit, always asking me, like, what do you want to do next? What do you want to tell me? You know, he's always asking me. And if I was able to make something happen, that's a little bit unclear now in my memory. Or if it was just him winning not an agenda

but just doing what he thought was best. For instance we started playing sets that had no pauses at all. So we would play for like 60 minutes just without stopping at all. And at first we got a lot of flack for it because people would say like,

we want to clap between the songs. We want to hear, you know. And my brother felt very strongly that that's how we should play. And we weren't breaking new ground. I mean, that's something that has been done in popular music, you know, forever. But people reacted like it was something terrible and annoying.

And that sort of reaction just made my brother want to do it even more. Right. And at first I was like, is this right? But then I got really into it. And it was almost like a sporting event for me. It was just this, you know, endurance test. And it was exciting. Didn't that leave you completely shredded after shows it did yeah and then i was just happy to just like sing a song

and stop and like i said i hated people tuning their guitars but like tuning a guitar and saying something to the audience and that was like a novelty to me when I first started playing on my own. But now I've kind of gone back to Tonight I'm Gonna Play and I've made up this set mostly just to amuse myself and kind of going back to that Fiery Furnaces way of playing and I'm doing a lot of like transitions from song to song and if a song ends in A then well what's the next song that I know that starts in A so I can just keep playing and kind of gone back to that more and more. One of the songs that made a big impression on me early on from Fiery Furnaces was Chief Inspector Blanche Flower from 2004, Blueberry Boat. That's a song my brother wrote. Okay. I mean, that is very odd. It's a very odd song.

I mean, it's like a little mini opera, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. That's something that, you know, my brother was very interested in doing. He still wants to, you know, write rock operas. Pete Townsend was his absolute hero as a kid, and he wanted to write many rock operas in that sort of Who tradition. Did he write all the words on that one? On Chief Inspector Blanchflower. I mean, you take... That's the one that starts... That's like three... operas in that sort of who tradition did he write all the words on that one on chief inspector

blanch flower i mean that's the one that's that's like three i'm trying to remember i think he did write all the words it's fucking mental stuff though isn't it i mean well literally the first kind of character in the song is mental okay so to speak. I had a dexed dream Hyperactivity selective Attend to relevant Information tempo Taken in toll to Mechanism coping concept Put my head down

Crumple my paper My brother used to work with children with disabilities as a part-time job. And actually, when the band really took off, whatever it did, he was getting his teaching certificate to work with children with disabilities. to work with children with disabilities. So he worked with a lot of kids with cerebral palsy and nonverbal kids. And that beginning part of that song is, I think, from the perspective of one of those kids. Yeah.

Does that make any sense? It does. Yes, it does. He's trying to sort of put himself in the mind of... Special needs children. Special needs, right. And it's really interesting and odd. And then you kind of alternate, you take turns. The perspective shifts throughout the song. And then it sort of gets a bit more conventional.

And then suddenly we're like in Scotland. Right. Dumbarton Dip. Damp in Dumbarton Dip About the 14th of May The public can dropped me in line. Thought there had been foul play. The farmer up the hill came in with his knife.

He mumbled something darkly about his young wife. It is like a play, and a lot of those songs, I mean, that's another big difference between what I was doing then and what I'm doing now, and for better or worse, I mean, I did kind of feel like I was an actor, and my job as the singer was to really put these weird songs across and to make them feel real for the audience. And now I'm singing these songs that maybe I'm the actor, but I'm also mostly singing from my own perspective and sharing pretty intimate details about my life and the lives of other people who I know. Some of your lyrics have the feel of a journal entry

or a phone conversation. Yeah. Do you keep a journal? Sometimes I do. And do you rate it for songs? Yeah, I mean, I definitely rate emails and texts. And if I hear something someone says, either someone I know or I don't know, I write it down if I think something, someone says either someone I know or don't know, I, I write

it down if I think I could use it later. Has that ever caused any problems? Does it make you worry about people feeling misrepresented or hearing something that they realize, hang on, that was something I said to Eleanor? No, I don't worry about it. All right. I'm just trying to stir things up. Because, yeah, there's lots of great little details in there. Like, that was when I knew from your album Personal Record. I met her in my bedroom Oh, at a party Halloween And she was wearing a pair of overalls

So I sang Come On Eileen Oh, I was being slightly mean And that just made a smile Which made me feel childish Yeah, yeah, yeah That seems to be, from my point of view, about a woman you met who ended up being a bandmate or playing in a band. do you want to know the truth

or do you want me to like this is a big question actually do you want to know the truth well i mean that makes me just completely small-minded like i have to just not small-minded but I mean you have a story in your mind so do you want to keep that um can I have both no because if I tell you something then it'll be replaced yeah I feel like it's better for you to keep your story I know that would be the mature thing to do but I'm I'm not because what are you going to gain from that? An insight into my ability to decode your lyrics. I want to have them confirmed. No, I'm telling you what I think it is. Okay, good.

I want you to keep thinking what you think. I think it's a bandmate that you had a crush on and that made your life difficult for a while. Interesting. He didn't mention his mother from your current album. Now, this is a line that I know people have quoted back at you a lot. I can still see you sitting on the edge of the bed looking at me like it was something so that line in itself it's like whoa is this because i think everyone's been in that position

either being the one looking at the other person and looking as if it was something or being the other person saying oh you thought that was something so is that is that i'm thinking like is that her being pleased that he thinks it's something or is that her thinking mate that was not something presumably there's supposed to be an ambiguity there right walk over the bridge and keep walking ahead of you you've just had a shag you go out and it's early days in the relationship yeah you're going for a walk yeah and you're walking ahead of him you're you're maybe walking briskly because you don't want to tag behind and have an intimate chat and maybe have to hold hands and i don't know. Maybe he's not even on the bridge.

Right, he hasn't even got to the bridge yet. He's back in the flat still, and you're ploughing across the bridge, thinking, whoa, fuck, Ian, what was that? I so wanted something to happen that day. And then what I wanted, it happened. And it just don't always happen that way to me. Oh, no. Hey, I've got an idea. How about tonight? I just play guitar. I just work on my guitar, and you just do a spoken word. I'm happy to do that.

Kind of session over the top. Certainly. Happy to do it. That never sounded so good. There's a lot going on in there, isn't there? As you say, that's the joy of music and those kinds of lyrics and poetry is that you slot them into your own experiences. Right. I mean, that's the hope, you know? Yeah. Your stuff is good for doing that, I must say. There's a lot of kind of romantic yearning. A lot of it reminds me, I mean, now I'm now like mid-40s, married, children. Life's over. Well, that part of my life is over. You know, I mean, I'm now like mid-40s, married, children. Life's over.

Well, that part of my life is over. You know what I mean? I don't mind. I've come to terms with that. And there's many, many great things that you get instead of that. Yeah. No, I think that is a big difference between, I'm not married. Yeah.

And that kind of, that is the best word. The yearning is an extremely powerful emotion that is very good for writing songs in the sort of tradition that I'm writing songs in. It's a lot about yearning. And it helps that that still happens in my real life. And if it didn't, you know, I would hopefully find something else to write about, but yeah,

sport. Yeah. Playing softball, probably. It's musical performance time of the podcast. Go studio. Will you introduce it? This is called,

he didn't mention his mother. called He Didn't Mention His Mother. I feel just as crazy as I did last night. I feel like I'll get up and go. Today I'm frozen, but tomorrow I'll write about you Uh-huh A friend and her baby and a dog that I know

I got nothing done, that's the way On the roof in the attic or out the window Was it you? A mouse, a bear, or a bum? A house, a chair, and a rug A mouse, a bear, or a bum?

Was it you? was it you? I can still see you sitting on the edge of the bed Looking at me like it was something Walk over the bridge and keep walking ahead of you I so wanted something to happen that day And then what I wanted it happened and that just don't always happen that way to me Oh No guitar solo

A master band or a bar A house, a chair and a rug A mouse, a bear or a bug Yes, it's you, oh yes, it's you If you're okay with that, I'm okay with that. That's great, yeah, thank you so much. No, no problem. Wait, this is an advert for Squarespace.

Every time I visit your website, I see success. Yes, success. The way that you look at the world makes the world want to say yes. It looks very professional. I love browsing your videos and pics and I don't want to stop. And I'd like to access your members area and spend in your shop. And spend in your shop. to launch, use the offer code BUCKSTONE to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. So put the smile of success on your face with Squarespace! Yes. Continue. to play that lovely song. Thanks very much to Richard Walsh for helping to set up the meeting.

A reminder that Eleanor's excellent album, Rebound, is out now. And if you feel inspired to further explore her work and the Fiery Furnaces back catalogue, there's a few links to some bits and pieces that you may find interesting on the description to this podcast, including that article from The Quietus

about Eleanor's favorite albums that you can listen to right the way through and that performance of police sweater blood vow with her brother matthew that i mentioned and a few other bits and pieces you can probably click on those links from your device and depending on what kind of device you have they may take you to the relevant places but if you visit my blog adam-buxton.co.uk and click on the podcasts tab then open up the relevant episode it should work like a blog post and be even more user-friendly I hope. So look if you're still listening to this episode I imagine that you are open-minded music enthusiasts. So I had a couple of recommendations for you. I was watching this week and last week a couple of great music documentaries that I thought I would mention.

One of them is called Hip Hop Evolution. It's a documentary from 2016 that first aired on HBO in Canada. And it can now be seen on Netflix. Both of these docs that I'm going to mention are on Netflix. I'm not sponsored by Netflix, by the way. I'm not obliged to sing their praises. I just happen to have seen these shows on there. As I was saying to Eleanor, I do love music documentaries,

but I feel as though at this point, I might have seen all the footage shot in CBGBs ever. And I probably have heard every single classic rock band breakup story from the 60s to the present day. So as I'm not a hip hop expert by any stretch, this was like finding a huge glittering trevotrove. It should be noted that like any doc that sets out to tell the story of a whole movement, it's bound to have glaring omissions and biases that serious fans would take issue with. No Salt-N-Pepa, MC Lyte, or Queen Latifah, for example. And why does the series not mention Nas's Illmatic and skate over the cultural impact of Luther Campbell

and the Miami Bass sound? I'm just reading out bits from a review I saw at this point. But there's an awful lot of other stuff in the four hour-long episodes that is fascinating and totally joyful, whether or not you love hip-hop. There's wonderful bits of archive that I'd never seen before from the early 70s through to the early 90s,

as well as a few bits that you have seen but you don't mind seeing again. And nearly all the interviewees are terrific value. I particularly fell in love with Daryl DMC McDaniels. I didn't realise that DMC was just Daryl McDaniels. Someone at school told me it was direct metal cutting. Oh yeah, run DMC, it's direct metal cutting. It's like a technique that they use to make the...

OK. No, it's just Daryl McDaniels. And he's just about the most sparkly, youthful, self-effacing fellow you could ever hope to meet. He just seems terrific. He's worth watching the whole thing for alone. But there's so many other characters in there who are equally charming and interesting and funny. So, yeah, I would recommend Hip Hop Evolution.

Biases and omissions notwithstanding. Also highly entertaining, though in a very different way, was another four-part documentary that features a wealth of amazing archive and interviews again, and this one's called The Defiant Ones. Quoting now from the description, The Defiant Ones tells of the unbreakable bond of trust and friendship between music legends Jimmy Iovine and Dr. Dre,

two street smart men from different worlds who together defied traditional wisdom and transformed contemporary culture in the process. So it's the story of how these two found each other. First of all, Jimmy Iovine's early life as a engineer and producer for artists like John Lennon and Bruce Springsteen and Tom Petty and Patti Smith, Stevie Nicks and then Dr. Dre obviously it sort of picks up almost where the hip-hop doc left off although they do cover his very early days being part of a much more glam and silly looking outfit than nwa ended up being but then you you cover the nwa years and the chronic and the change that that album made and uh and then

the years beyond um of gangster rap when things got serious and dark with Biggie and Tupac and Suge Knight and all those characters. And the two, Jimmy Iovine and Dr. Dre, come together and form this label, Interscope. Now, I might be getting some of the details wrong here. You'd have to watch the doc. But the labels Interscope and death row feature very heavily in the documentary and a lot of those artists on there are interviewed snoop dogg and eminem uh gwen stefani from no doubt will i am from the black eyed peas trent resner from nine inch nails marilyn manson is, though not interviewed.

So there's lots of interesting characters popping up. Although that kind of music was never my favourite, really, it's still very interesting to watch this doc. And unlike hip hop evolution, which to me was a celebration of creativity and a look at some of the social conditions at the time that fostered that creativity. The Defiant Ones is much more the story of the relationship between business and creativity. And more than anything, it's a story about two blokes who made a shitload of money in ways that were sometimes quite questionable.

And it's not a total hagiography this doc you do get a sense of some of the nastier and more cynical aspects of the music industry and the personalities involved um but yeah i thought it was very entertaining very interesting occasionally a bit depressing what do you think rose I don't feel that Snoop Dogg represents me as a member of the dog community, and I still find some of his lyrics highly offensive. But on the plus side, I did lie on my back on the sofa with my paws in the air

and my head hanging off the side while I was watching this, so that was really good. I enjoyed that. That was a much better and more concise review than mine. Yes, all right. You're welcome. All right. Let's head back and enjoy the rest of the sunshine. Thank you very much indeed to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his production input on this episode. Thanks once again to Eleanor Friedberger

for talking to me, for making the time, and for her patience. And thanks most especially to you, podcats, for listening right to the end. Might be a bit warm for a hug. Should we just go for a snooty euro kiss? Till next time we're together. Oh, beautiful bird action. Please go carefully. And remember, I love action. Please go carefully. And remember, I love you. Bye! Give me like a smile and a thumbs up. Nice like a pat when me bums up. Give me like a smile and a thumbs up.

Nice like a pat when me bums up. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Please like and subscribe. Give me like a smile and a thumbs up. Nice like a pat when me bums up. Give me like a smile and a thumbs up.

Nice like a pat when me bums up. Like and subscribe. Bye. ស្រូវាប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ Check out this mad techno bird. This is one bird making all this noise flying around. I was wicked.