THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.76 - CHARLIE BROOKER

Episode Date: May 13, 2018

Adam talks with British writer, producer and presenter Charlie Brooker.THIS EPISODE CONTAINS LANGUAGE AND THEMES THAT HAVE OFFENDED IN THE PAST AND MAY OFFEND AGAIN.There was a problem with one of the mics on this episode hence roomy sound from back up recording. Apologies for any emotional scarring this may cause.Hello. Adam here with a few notes and links related to this episode for you.My rambly conversation with Charlie was recorded in March of 2018, in the west London house where he lives with his wife Connie and their two young children. Charlie started his media career writing about video games in the 90s and we began by reminiscing about our childhood fascination with those blocky virtual worlds.We also talked about Nathan Barley (Channel 4, 2005), Black Mirror (Channel 4, Netflix, 2011 - present), how comedic fury can be taken at face value, smoking, defecating, and how we would cope if we were on reality TV or facing armageddon and didn’t have Bear Grylls to advise us. Charlie also does a very good impression of comedian Jimmy Carr’s laugh.Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production support.Music and jingles by Adam BuxtonADAM BUXTON’S OLD BITS DVD/DOWNLOADADAM & JOE - PEOPLE PLACE TV GO HOME WEBSITENATHAN BARELY EP 1‘WAKE IN FRIGHT’ 2012 ARTICLE IN THE NEW YORKER‘WAKE IN FRIGHT’ HOW WAS THE KANGAROO SLAUGHTER FILMED?ARISTON AD FEATURING ROBOCOP VIDEO GAME MUSICPYE CORNER AUDIO YOUTUBE PLAYLISTQ.E.D. - A GUIDE TO ARMAGEDDONPROTECT AND SURVIVE - 70s UK PUBLIC INFORMATION FILMS ABOUT NUCLEAR WAR‘CHARLIE SAYS’ DON’T TALK TO STRANGERS Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human folk Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan. Do-do-do, do-do-do, do-do. There she goes, the hairy bullet.

How you doing, podcats? Adam Buxton here. Welcome to podcast number 76. It is the middle of May thereabouts, 2018. I am walking down a track, as you may be able to hear, in the countryside out in the east of England. It's a Sunday afternoon. Weather's a little bit blah, but you know, could be a lot worse. I'm not complaining. I don't want you to think I'm complaining. I'm lucky. I know it. And so is Rosie, my dog friend. She leads the good life out here. She's not even on a leash. There's no one around really in these fields, so she can just do what she wants. Although occasionally, she will hang out with some fairly insalubrious types. Last week, for example,

she came back with a couple of ticks. Not something she's done before. Which is a surprise, really, because there's a lot of long grass out here and quite a number of deer that go scampering around. So it's ideal tick territory you might think anyway so far she's managed to avoid that crowd but uh this week there they were two of them hanging out on her head and um i was forced to get out the tweezers yeah you're really rude to them

as well well i'm sorry rosie but you know i've told you before you're really rude to them as well. Well, I'm sorry, Rosie, but, you know, I've told you before, you're a good-looking young dog. You're going to attract those kinds of parasites, and I don't want them in my house. You didn't even try to get to know them. Look, I've come across their kind before, and believe me, you do not want to hang out with them. It's all take, take, take, and maybe, if you're lucky, a bit of Lyme disease. You never like anyone I bring home. Well, that's often because you've killed them you're lucky, a bit of Lyme disease. You never like anyone I bring home. Well, that's often because you've killed them. But look, I'm just watching out for your best interests.

If you don't know anything about my best interests, I'm going to go and find some squirrels that are much nicer than you. OK, while Rosie goes off, let me tell you a little bit about this week's podcast conversation, which is with British writer, producer and presenter Charlie Brooker. Here's some brief Charlie facts for you. One of the first things to bring Charlie's humour to the attention of the wider world, including myself and Joe Cornish, was the website that Charlie created in 1999, TV Go Home, which featured beautifully laid out, invented TV listings,

satirising the kind of programmes that Charlie would sit at home and shout at at the time. The website still exists, in fact, and you'll find a link, along with a few other things that we talk about, in the description of this episode. Another fan of TV Go Home was British comedian and satirist Chris Morris, with whom Charlie developed his first narrative TV show, Nathan Barley, that aired on Channel 4 in the UK in 2005. Nathan Barley lampooned all aspects of ludicrous East London trendy culture. At the time, it got rather a tepid reception from some critics and viewers,

but it's since found a new generation of fans for whom the show works as a satire of all sorts of modern pop cultural twattery, some of which appears to have used episodes of Nathan Barley as a kind of instruction manual, not mentioning any names. Vice. In 2006, Charlie began writing and presenting the TV review show Screen Wipe on BBC4. That was similar in tone to the Guardian TV review columns that Charlie wrote from 2000 to 2010. They were called Screen Burn, I seem to recall, and Screen Wipe on TV provided a loose format within which Charlie could rant and rave between carefully chosen clips and the occasional guest contribution. I contributed something as Ken Corder ages ago about a TV show called The Mint. I'm not suggesting it was the greatest moment ever on Screenwipe, but it was a moment. Charlie continues to present the odd end-of-year wipe to this day, although the 2017 end-of-year

wipe had to be cancelled due to deadline pressure from his globe-conquering, multi-award-winning science fiction anthology series, Black Mirror black mirror black mirrors self-contained episodes 18 to date since it started airing in 2011 have provided charlie with a place to explore on a more ambitious scale many of the themes that have always preoccupied him especially the social and spiritual price to be paid for the wonders of technological progress. Black Mirror, like much of Charlie's work, is filled with moments that are wildly imaginative, strange, hilarious, angry, and sometimes just goofy. A bit like Charlie himself, as you'll hear. And I suppose at this point I should say that if you're likely to be upset or offended by some very strong language

and a few somewhat grim and scatological conversational topics, then this may not be the best episode of the podcast for you. But if you don't listen, you will miss out on Charlie's impression of comedian Jimmy Carr's distinctive laugh, which comes towards the end of our chat. And that is something that I think is going to make you happier. My conversation with Charlie was recorded in March of this year, 2018, in the West London house where he lives with his wife, Connie, and their two young children. One of the first things you see when you enter their house is a full-size Space Invaders arcade game cabinet. Now video games have always featured heavily in Charlie's life and work. His entry point into the

media was game journalism back in the 90s and we began by reminiscing about our childhood fascination with those blocky virtual worlds. Back at the end with a small serving of waffle, but right now, here we go! Ramble Chat, let's have a Ramble Chat We'll focus first on this, then concentrate on that Come on, let's chew the fat and have a Ramble Chat Put on your conversation coat and hide your talking hat yes

la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la

la la la what was your first exposure to video games? I can remember that it was at a swimming pool in, I think, Wantage in Oxfordshire, Berkshire. And they had Space Invaders and Breakout and I think it's called Circus with a seesaw and two blokes who pop balloons. Don't know if you remember that. And I remember seeing them and being immediately mesmerised. There was something magic about them.

And I think it was something to do with the fact that you could control what was on a television. Yeah. I must have been about six or seven, something like that. It must have been about 1977, I'm guessing. So I was born in 71. And I remember they had an attract mode, which is where they

just demo how the game works while it says insert coin. And if I didn't have 10p... Is that what it's called, an attract mode? It's quite a good phrase to know. And I would convince myself I was playing it, that it had gone wrong and had given me a free game, if you see what I mean. So I'd

stand there, sort of, I was going to say wiggling the joystick, but I think Space Invaders was two buttons for left and right. And from then I was just slightly, I was just sort of, I don't know, I always thought there was something kind of magical about them. I remember seeing Pac-Man on a ferry and we were all queuing up to play. It was on a

school trip to France or something like that. So i can vividly remember these things and then sort of i've got a zx80 which was pre the zx81 it was this is really nerdy actually so i'm so for younger listeners a zx80 was basically it was probably about on the level of something you'd get now in a greetings card to sort of to power a tune or something like that. It couldn't even do that. It couldn't make music, but it could do nothing. And it was black and white, and you could program it. I got it in a jumble sale.

What would you do on it? I never had one of those. You're learning basic programming on there. You couldn't really do anything. I was hoping it would play games, but really the only game I had was in the manual, and you had to type it in and it was called

something like Cheese Nibbler and it showed a grey block that it said was cheese and you had to push a button it had like a flat

sort of keyboard no actual moving keys you had to touch a button to make a little bit of the cheese disappear and when you did it all

it told you how long it had taken you that was the game. So it wasn't very good. And then I got a ZX Spectrum. I begged for a ZX Spectrum for Christmas and got one of those. And then I was sort of off playing games constantly. Yeah, they were pretty good.

I never had one of those. But I do remember spending an evening round with a friend playing some sort of game where you appeared to be flying through space there were stars coming at you and you could make certain decisions it was a little bit like was it elite was it three-dimensional yeah yeah wireframe maybe i think so it was a bit like dungeons and dragons in space that sounds like elite but it was the most exciting night and this is obviously i was too young to be involved with any stimulants whatsoever right so this was purely fueled on imagination yeah and it was just the most thrilling evening i can remember it was like being in a dream that had become real yeah that's absolutely what it felt like and now now, obviously, you look at those games now, and I do look at those games now occasionally,

and they look rubbish. Yeah. And they're really almost unplayable. But the leap of imagination, I guess, that you were required to take, you'd sort of lean in and fill in a lot of the blanks, and it did feel like there were entire universes in there. One of our kids, we've got two kids and one

is five, he's about to be six. I can recognise myself in him. He's completely obsessed with all any computer games. He can tell you the entire history of Mario for instance, like he'll tell you. In New Super Mario Bros. on

the Wii, Luigi can do a spin jump. He just constantly comes out with this sort of stuff. So it must be genetic, I reckon. Well, I sympathise. And you've got downstairs an actual arcade machine, it looks like. But it's not just one game. No, it's called a main cabinet. Multiple arcade machine emulator.

So it's like a mock-up of a Space Invaders cabinet and inside it's got, it can emulate lots of different systems arcade games, Spectrum games Nintendo, you name it so it's sort of like a museum that's quite dweeby, I've got a pinball machine as well downstairs, I was never into pinball

no I didn't like it but now weirdly it's a better game than you think, yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, and I get quite into configuring those. I like things you can open up and fiddle with all the bit. I mean, I'm not mechanically minded. I can't actually fix it. I'll just sort of try and work out why it's gone wrong.

You can supercharge the spring and jazz up the flippers. You can. You can sort of add things. Look at that, your phone's ringing. How unprofessional. That is my producer, Seamus. Hey, Seamus. Hey, Adam, how are you?

I'm fine. I'm just talking to Charlie, actually. Oh, God. I'm so sorry. Oh, God. Yeah, you did. Jesus, Seamus. Jesus.

I'm going to talk to my dad. Can you give me a call when you get out? Yeah, sure. No worries. Okay, bye now. Bye. Seamus was mortified, and I'm now going to put this on airplane mode.

I don't know that he sounded mortified enough. No, he was crying. Oh, was it? Okay, that's up there. Mort twice, yeah. Yeah, the flippers. But the thing you said before about the thrill of being able to control

what was happening on a TV screen, that is the thing that completely blew my mind. I mean, I've got to find a new phrase that completely blew my mind I mean I've got to find a new phrase other than blew my mind for a moment of just thrilling

epiphany when I got the Atari 2600 yeah I mean that was I suppose the first big

colour console with cool games the first Space Invaders game that had a sort of Pac-Man

yeah there was old Morecambe and wise used to advertise that did they yeah if you look that up yeah right that's weird so you

had that you had the cartridge based yeah you had one of those okay yeah that was the first well i had a binatone pong console yeah with the uh dial things yeah it

can do all of those by the way right it can do all of them and that was pretty great and that really for a time I might be misremembering but for a time

we were like an advert the whole family gathered round the TV clapping and laughing playing Pong even my dad you know it was just

rather good fun isn't it after swearing blind that he would never let us get a games console because it would spell the end of our lives.

Intellectual lives. We'd never do any work. Right. Our brains would rot. All the scare stories that used to predominate in the media at that point. Do you think, because obviously you're drawn towards the form of television. Do you think, because I think there's a sort of weird connection between that,

the ability to control what was on the screen and also, another thing that was also very exciting at the same time is if I saw anything that was like,

that was aware it was a television program, if you know what I mean. Like, you know, repeats of Monty Python where there would be jokes about the BBC Two ident. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Or, you know, the young ones where they play with the fact that it was a fictional programme and it was a TV show. I think there's some weird through line there. I don't know quite what it is. Do you know what I mean? Absolutely.

Surely it's as simple as just suddenly having an effect on something that was previously totally impenetrable. Yes. And something that was served to you,etrable yes and something that was served to you for you to consume you know when the atari 2600 came out so what's that late 70s yeah i think we got ours early 80s 81 82 or something there were three channels in the uk when we got the 2600 the atari console back and plugged it in which took a very long time to figure it out

and tune it and everything like what there's a tuning knob in the TV anyway and so we tuned the channel and suddenly the Space Invaders screen came into focus

must have been like receiving an alien transmission it really was and then you plug in your joystick and you're actually controlling what's happening on a TV screen. Yeah. It was

inexplicably exciting. I just, I thought about it when I wasn't playing it. I went to bed smiling thinking about it. Did you dream about it? Oh yeah, yeah. I always used to find that if you played a particularly vivid game you'd end up having dreams about it

there's something, I don't do that anymore I'm about Doom, just jump forward to Doom, I'd have lots of dreams about Doom in the 90s fun dreams or? No no, sort of horrible, because it's quite horrible Doom, isn't it? I never played Doom oh why you wuss, every so often

there's a little leap, there's a sort of little technical leap, like you were saying when you first get your 2600 and you plug it in and you see that image and it feels like magic. Doom was another one, I think, for me. That was the first time I played a game where it was multiplayer and you dial up using a modem. No way. And you could watch. There's your friend running around in your game. That blew my mind, to use your favourite phrase.

And then recently I had it again with some of the more recent VR stuff. You put it on someone's head and the first thing they do is just start swearing. Yeah. Fucking hell! Yeah. Weirdly, it's things like, if you're playing a driving game, it's not really the fact that you're sitting in the car that's unusual, it's that you can turn around and see the detail of the seat behind you.

That's like, there's something really strange about that. Even going up to the walls in Tomb Raider, I remember, and finding that they became blocky and, you know, there were edges to the universe. That was always a little disappointing, but still there was something, every now and again there would be a glitch in those kinds of games and you would be able to step outside.

Yeah, or you'd fall through the floor or something. Suddenly everything's grey and you would be able to step outside. Or you'd fall through the floor or something and suddenly everything's grey and you can sort of see the inverts. That's quite strange. That was thrilling as well in a certain way.

I think those moments of sort of, like again a PlayStation, that was another one. First time I saw a PlayStation that was like unbelievable that something that sophisticated could be

in your home. It had sex with your mind. Basically, yeah. Because that was... I'm trying to think of an alternative to blow my mind. It was quite impressive. I'm either going to go extremely graphic or...

Yeah, no, I'm not. Yeah, but I think those little miracle moments have been happening all the time more recently, like to the point where you're sort of bored of it. Do you know what I mean?

It's like with your phone or when you first saw something like Uber and it's like... I don't know if you've sort of bored of it, do you know what I mean? It's like with your phone or with, like when you first saw something like Uber and it's like, I don't know if you've used Uber where it's just, you know, you tap this thing and the guy shows up in the car before you've had time to go for a piss and say goodbye to everyone and that's amazing the first time

it happens but now it's just sort of annoying, immediately annoying if it says it's going to take like three minutes and it takes four, you're immediately sort of aggrieved. That's before all the ethical objections start mounting up. All the ethical... Well, that's the other thing is then you start... It's like, I don't know, something like Deliveroo

where you're like, okay, I can see the advantage of this, but also, did you see that thing the other day with videos of Deliveroo riders like trying to get through the snow when it was dangerous? No. And they shouldn't have been out, but there was a sort of financial incentive to go out and then snowboarding down the streets or tumbling headfirst down icy staircases and stuff. So far, I'm just respecting them more. Well, yeah, but it's like, should you be?

I'm joking. Should you be? Yeah. I don't know. But but it's like, should you be... I'm joking. Should you be... Yeah, I don't know. But then it's convenient, isn't it? It is convenient. Bloody convenient. I don't know how... I don't know.

There is a convenience versus ethics sort of ratio that I can't quite... That's the... I mean, that's the fundamental question of modern life, though, isn't it? That's progress and everything else. Yeah. It's just one question of modern life though isn't it that's progress and everything else is yeah

it's just one set of people going okay that's that's enough progress now let's go back to just digging around in the fields and

yeah can't do that it's just become this big political quagmire the whole or quagmire

someone said you said quagmire the other day it's pronounced quagmire yeah don't the Americans call it a quagmire I've no idea quagmire the other day it's pronounced quagmire yeah don't the Americans call it a quagmire I've no idea

I watch so much American TV my brain's I still struggle to remember whether it's schedule or schedule I don't know that

but then that's what about you don't say vitamin or anything like that no you don't say semester

no they say semester now don't they over here don't they possibly well they say do you call your shows seasons do you think in seasons yeah i yeah but then that's yeah but then that's

adopted well there's a reason for that isn't there because it's because they don't link up isn't a series like things in a series isn't it isn't it aren't they in a in a what's the difference between a series and a serial i don't know that either because the Americans like refer to a serial a serial is one narrative stretched over

multiple episodes a series is just a set of programs that was produced in one go I really should know this shouldn't I surely

I'm guessing I really should surely this is basic stuff and what is it what is a program like a sort of really basic stuff, isn't it? That I should know. Yeah, we call them seasons

but then, why not? I mean, that I don't get too hung up about. Hang on, off the politics of progress and... onto the semantics of shows. Well, that's because it's more interesting. Do you spend a lot of time in America? no

the running joke we have on the show is that if we're filming anywhere nice I don't get to go and also we've never shot in America we've had things set in America but they've always been shot elsewhere so we've shot in South Africa and Canada

and places like that for America but I usually when that's happening, I'm here writing, basically, because I'm usually panicking and trying to catch up and just typing at night. I did go to Iceland. And stood around in a big coat saying, yes, more of that. That's, well, I didn't say any of the yes, more of that. I stood around in a really big coat because they had, like, record snowfall.

You know, it's a bit weird being on set and knowing that if there's something that you don't like the look of, you can intervene and change it ultimately

but you also want to sort of hang back and not... You'd make yourself unpopular if you did. Exactly. You can make yourself... But sometimes

you kind of have to because there's often a logical thing. There's often a sort of, oh well, in Black Mirror there's certainly often a logical um reason why a certain thing must happen or mustn't happen and so sometimes i think people

can kind of lose sight of that so you have to be really pedantic and so that one of course he wouldn't uh he wouldn't know that that wouldn't be his point of view because it's not really happening because he's actually a usb key that's uh been lost down the back of a sofa. That's actually, I think you'll find what's going on here. So you have to sort of sometimes chip in with that sort of bilge. Yeah. What about the episodes like what everyone calls the Star Trek episode, first of

season four? Yeah. Where was that shot from? That was Twickenham Studios. Was it? So the spaceship was all at Twickenham Studios. So I did get to go I was there. I was there quite it was really freezing cold. It was like literally it was January. The production values on that were incredibly high. So where's that?

Was that a British VFX team there? Yeah, it was Framestore. It looked so good. It did look like a proper sort of thing, didn't it? That's quite weird. What's the name of the main guy? Jesse Plemons? Yeah, he's really good he's really really good uh i mean they were all we were really lucky with the cast there they're

all excellent he's particularly i'm sounding like i'm now on a junkie everyone was a really blue bloody big happy family it was all great no but he is he is really nice i remember him we had to skype with him before so often you, like when you're going to cast somebody or you're trying to persuade somebody to take part in something, we end up Skyping with them, which is a bit weird. We Skyped with him. And I remember he went outside for a cigarette during the Skype, which I was still impressed by, even though I don't smoke anymore.

Yeah. I found that sort of, I don't know. I was impressed. I was impressed by that. I know. He took the laptop outside and sort of smoked. Come on, Jesse. And he's an LA guy as well.

Yeah. I think that is impressive. Yeah. I'm not suggesting that smoking is cool. Listeners, don't give me a hard time, all right? I'm just saying that, well, I am saying it's cool. I'm saying smoking's cool. Smoking is, I bet he's quit now because he's about to become a dad.

Right. So I bet he quits. I used to smoke. I used to smoke like a fucker. I used to smoke 60 a day. Did you? Yeah. And that takes real commitment.

I used to smoke in the shower. Shut up. Generally. I sometimes wake up in the middle of the night, have a cigarette and go back to sleep. How old are you at this point? 25. I started smoking when I was 20. i stopped when i was 25 because i got up to 60 a day and i thought this is sick yeah to smoke in the shower you'd hold it in one hand and you'd wash with the other hand and then you pass it over keeping it

sort of out of the rain of the shower and then you'd swap it around and you'd wash with the other one hand. And then usually where I was smoking, there was a toilet within fag-lobbing distance. I'm sure on more than one occasion, I probably had more than one cigarette in the shower. I reckon. That's how horrifically addicted I was. Were you thinking, ah, this is the life? horrifically addicted I was. Were you thinking, ah, this is the life?

No, I knew it was disgusting. I knew it was shameful. Like, while doing it, I probably was groaning. Like, oh, what am I doing? I might as well be shitting myself as well. Should I just shit myself while I'm here?

Might as well shit myself and wash myself with the shit um it was sort of and was it easy to give up no oh man I remember um you being on the patches I was on patches because I met you years and years I mean we can talk about that but I met you years later after that I because I'd started again then and I went back I I first gave up using patches which you have really vivid dreams I have you were the first person to tell me that they were sort of huge in scale

they were like blockbusters I remember having a dream I had a giant cannon and I was in space and I was firing planets into other planets and they were exploding there's probably some terrible symbolism going on there

but it was all happening it was like massive 3d widescreen it was amazing i think we got in touch with you hoping that you might contribute to the process of making the Adam and Joe show. Yeah. Which me and Joe did. And once we got to, I think, the third or fourth series that we did. Yeah. We were like, Jesus Christ, we need some more ideas. So that must have been about 1999, I'm guessing.

Yeah, that sounds right. Must have been about then. So I was about 28. I'd been presenting a sort of video games program computer program on BBC

Knowledge as it was called then as BBC 4 used to be called but I hadn't done any TV I wanted to do

sort of TV comedy writing and things like that so I was really flattered I remember and I remember

coming in for a sort of ideas meeting there was you and Joe and Louis Theroux was there right because we only ever had two of those that was our you and Joe and Louis Theroux was there right

because we only ever had two of those that was our attempt to try and emulate the American right model of having a writer's room

right and generate material that way and I I think we got very little out of it because it's just that

thing of your sensibility especially if you make our stuff was all homemade and it was shared jokes and there's an art to taking somebody else's ideas and and doing it your way yeah and we hadn't really mastered that art at that point it's well it's we don't really have writers rooms on black mirror do you know we've occasionally done sort of brainstorming sort of thing you write the

majority of the episodes yeah because it's such an authored show, it's quite idiosyncratic, and so you end up... Somebody can have an idea that's perfectly good, but it doesn't quite fit into your version of it. Either that or it's just I'm a weird control freak. I can't quite work out which one it is. I guess with our show, it's because every episode is different.

It helps, actually, if there's a couple of minds across all of them. It does give it some consistency somewhere, even if it's not in the casting or the location or the tone, even the some flavour somewhere that's the same. Now, I remember that one of the funniest things I think I've ever seen on TV is People Place. Oh, yeah.

That was our spoof of kind of daytime... Everything on... Everything that... It was sort of every BBC One sort of 11.30am sort of show. It was inspired particularly by a show called Shopping City which was set in a mall.

I don't know if it was always the same mall. Our People Place thing would go to a different mall each time. And the presenter of Shopping City would run around and basically it was exactly the same as our thing. Right. Have little challenges,

little games over by Dixon's or whatever, and then they'd run over to the fashion hour. Everything was at this breathless pace. Yeah. Come on, come on, let's go, let's go. You're on the spot. What's in your bag? Et cetera, et cetera.

And we didn't really have to do too much. No, I remember particularly a bit where you were impressed by a sort of mug tree. Oh, yes. Even if it was, and mugs there is. Yeah. Anyway. That's good.

I'm glad you like that. I can't remember why I said that. I was just complimenting you. That's very nice. Thanks. I'll take it. And then I think the next contact we had with you that I was just complimenting you that's very nice thanks I'll take it and then you and then and then I think the next contact we had with you was possibly when you were preparing to do Nathan

Barley yes remember when we sat in a cafe in Poland Street you me Chris Morris and Joe and we looked at um copies of ID right I can't remember I can't remember that's one of these because the process of making that show lasted forever sorry that's my phone that's a number

I don't recognise I might have to answer it just a sec hang on hello who's that from who I'll go away oh it's a robot one it's a robot one that's unbelievable From who?

I'll go away. It's a robot one. It's a robot one. Those are unbelievable. The new ones that go, hello? Yeah. Hello? Hello? Yes.

There's a little gap and you're like, yeah, hello? And then it kicks off. I've got information about your accident. Yeah, that's what it was. So I'm always like, oh my God, that's the school. One of the kids has fallen over. Something like that. You're fucking bastards.

Yeah no so Nathan Barley the gestation period for that was so long I was convinced this is never going to happen because we were talking

about it before the Brass Eye Pedo special. Right. Like which was and that was like 2001. Yeah. Nathan Barley went out

in 2005. So there was a long period where me and Chris would just meet up and talk about it. And I didn't, I'd not really written many TV things before. And I was like, I don't. That was your first narrative thing, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And Chris is someone who's really good, I think, actually, at doing that thing of using people for their ideas. But, you know, like, he's very good at, he sort of thrives on that quite a bit. Or maybe he's good at tuning in to somebody's sensibility. Yeah, finding the funny.

Exactly. Exactly. That's how he'd say it. Whoops, I've just bumped up against a big chunk of funny. That's how he talks. Thanks for the day. A lot of funny. A lot, a lot of funny.

See you tomorrow. Yeah. So that was probably, that must have probably been during the period when I thought this is surely never going to happen, this show, because it's been years now. We're just sort of talking about it. So I don't know that this is ever going to happen this show because it's been years now we're just sort of talking about it I don't know that this is ever going to happen and then it was suddenly actually happening What was your Nathan Barley thing in TV

Go Home based on that? In the 90s I'd been living in a flat in like Notting Hill which was a flat that I should not have been able to afford to rent basically and I lived there with a friend of mine. And we lived in this tiny flat.

And it's because it only had one room. And so we had to convert the living room into one of the bedrooms every evening sort of thing. And I was working at the computer exchange as a shop assistant in Rathbone Place. Or Whitford Street and then Rathbone Place. But the area I was living in, I guess it was becoming gentrified at the time, I'm not quite sure, but certainly I was aware that quite suddenly there were lots of sort of

people standing around outside pubs talking loudly about screenplays they were claiming to be doing and things like this and I was just full of angry resentment. I just thought all these people knew how to get what they wanted and were doing it and were standing outside a pub loudly bragging about it while I was on my way off to work and

how fucking unfair is the universe and I bet they're not doing that fucking screenplay anyway that cunts. So it was sort of that So it was channeling that sort of aggression and resentment. And so I was quite angry a lot of the time. I would either be angry because you'd watch something on TV and you'd think, well, that's terrible. How come they got to do that? Or it was really good and then you'd think, oh, I could never do that. Oh, God.

And so you couldn't win. Yeah. Unless you found something that was just mediocre enough. And the answer is to sort of make your own niche, isn't it, really? I mean, I don't know. Weirdly, I suppose there, what happened was I managed to channel that anger. Yeah. Because the TV go home listings were really angry.

The rage just radiated from the screen. But I've always found that quite funny. I mean, it's always like a funny in my head, and the tone of that is sort of similar to when I was doing TV review columns in The Guardian. Similarly sort of unreasonably angry.

It's the sort of basic joke for me, is that the anger is basically unreasonable sometimes it was genuine anger and well it was usually based on something but i would ramp it up to whip yourself into a pitch of furious indignation until it would just become funny and sort of ridiculous it's like a ridiculous level of anger so yeah but then some people tend to take that literally, don't they? Yeah. I remember getting an email from a reader once

and they'd said, oh, I've written a piece that I think you'll think is funny. And they attached it. And it was all about Kerry Katona. And it was just like this horrible sort of like, yeah, she's a bitch. And sort of laughing about her sort of personal problems and things like that.

And I thought, oh, oh, is that what people think I'm doing? Is that what, so he thinks I'll like that. Maybe this isn't being received in the way I think it is, what I'm doing all the time. I don't know if that was just one person's slightly odd interpretation. Were you ever the kind of person that went online and ranted in chat forums about stuff? Not really, no.

And so do you ever visit those places now and find out what people think about Black Mirror and look at the best to worst list of all Black Mirror episodes? Oh, I have looked at those, yeah. I mean, it's like you sort of can't not look at those in a way. I mean, some people say never look at... Like, I think there is an assumption, and this is what I used to do in in the 90s the core assumption i made that was wrong was i would watch things on tv and i would assume that the people making them were slapping themselves on the back yes and going oh we're brilliant i'm a genius this is the best i could possibly do and then of course as soon as

you start making anything yourself you realize that it's difficult or there's compromises or things go wrong or you don't have enough money or enough time or there's compromises or things go wrong or you don't have enough money or enough time or there's so many things that get in between so when you read a sort of criticism which the person is assuming that you think what you've done is peerless and brilliant that can be quite irritating because of course you know what the flaws in anything you're making are. I think I'm better at just ignoring it now. Yeah.

Because you sort of have to. And because when you're writing constantly, you're like thinking, this is shit. Oh, God. What's the process? You think of an idea. You think of an idea. And then do you just bash out the first draft that is just there for structural purposes and you don't get hung up on each line or how does it work well it's a bit more so what happens is so annabelle is the co-showrunner annabelle jones is my co-showrunner and what happens is we'll be

yabbering and i'll say oh here's an idea so um what if the internet had a temper and she'll go what do you mean? And we'll expand it from there. That's the one thing that annoys me, is when people go, oh, that's the, Black Mirror is that show about computers are bad for you? Yeah, I know that, thanks, mate. Oh, what, this show that is looking at our phones too much? I know that, thanks, Pat.

Like, I don't fucking know how ridiculous a lot of the concepts are. Fuck you. I'm pissing myself, you fucking cunt. So often it's a silly idea, basically. Fucking, yeah, cunts.

So often it's a silly idea and then once you sort of know when you've got a story, you know when it's become a sort of story, once you know what the ending is, basically. I'll write up a sort of two-page synopsis of it, send that to Netflix.

That forces you to... I never used to be that structured. I'd make things up as I went along. But they'll come back with feedback on it. But that forces you to think of what the actual story is in a basic way. And then I write the first draft as quickly as i can and i can be really quick i've written episodes in like two days or something like that and other times it

takes weeks or you know and what about the plotting of the thing you sort of work backwards do you have your board full of cards and shift those around? It really depends on the sort of thing it is. Quite often our stories tend to be quite simple. So it's often like somebody is stuck in a trap of some description and there's a logical progression to what goes on. But sometimes when we've done more complicated ones where there's all sorts of logic involved, then you have to sort of get the flow

chart out pretty much. Okay. San Giuseppe, which is the one that was set in the 1980s, that's a lot of people's favourite. It's a romance set in the 1980s. Oh, that's the one I haven't seen but I read about it. You haven't seen that one? That's the one everyone likes, you fool! You should watch that one.

That was really quite, that was a weirdly quick one to write. And we're doing some more at the moment. So because people came to expect the show to be nihilistic and bleak and have a horrible ending, and for people to be left devastated at the end of each episode, once you've established that as a pattern, it's quite difficult to A, maintain it, and B, not get bored of it. But equally, I'm aware that if we just did six happy endings,

that's also not really what you come to watch the show for. So when we're looking at a season, I guess it's like putting an album together and going, where's the love song and the, oh, we need a sort of angry rock track. Is that how they talk when they're putting an album together again. Where's the love song and the, oh, we need a sort of angry rock track. Is that how they talk when they're putting an album together? Yeah. Where's the angry rock track?

That's what Radiohead talk about. Where's the love song, Tom? You've got to write some love lyrics. I was impressed by the fact that you had Jodie Foster directing an episode. Yes. Holy Christmas. Did you meet her? Yes. Oh, yeah.

She was very nice. We had to Skype with her first. That was quite weird because it's Jodie Foster on the screen. Yeah. Talking to her. That's the future. You know what? She seems very, very, very normal.

Like, for someone who's been in the public eye since they were, what, three? Yes. Which is crazy. And had so many strange twists and turns in their professional life, not least that whole horrible Hinkley. That? Yeah, she has that. I mean...

John Hinkley had seen Taxi Driver, and he tried to assassinate Ronald Reagan to impress Jodie Foster. That's right. Which parallels what Travis Bickle, Robert De Niro's character, does in Taxi Driver. He tries to rescue Jodie Foster's character from a brothel, from a pimp. From Harvey Keitel. From Harvey Keitel. That's kind of a seedy film, isn't it?

It's shockingly violent. I saw it recently again. You watch these things sometimes in your teenage years where you're just consuming everything give me everything and you're like yeah yeah yeah it bounces off you and then I saw it again I mean about 10 years ago

but still I was like whoa it's extreme but then I remember there's an interesting one because our sensibilities change over time so Taxi Driver I remember watching you see, Taxi Driver, that's an interesting one. Because I, our sensibilities change over time. So Taxi Driver, I remember watching when I was a teenager. And the reason I wanted to watch it was because I'd heard, this is nasty. Yeah.

It's a nasty, shocking, dark, you're reeling out of the room, being sick and crying. I would seek out films that were horrible and disturbing. Being a gentleman like that too. Yeah, it's, what's that about? And now, I remember a couple, I don't know if it's becoming a parent or what it is. You know that point when your kids are like really young and there's a point where you just don't get any sleep at all,

no spare time at all whatsoever to yourself. You know, any spare moment you have is precious. And even enough time to watch a film is a bit of a novelty and a treat. And I remember one night, I think it's just after we'd moved in here and our kids had actually gone to sleep. Connie and I were like, oh, what should we do? We could watch a film. Let's watch a movie.

And I'm like, yeah. Oh, there's a film that's just come on. It's like a rare Australian film from the 70s that apparently is, really good and what i've heard was it was disturbing and it was called wake in fright have you ever seen wake in fright wake in fright is exactly the sort of film i would probably liked when i was 17 18 years old it's horrible it's so uncomfortable it's about a teacher in austral Australia who finds himself in this small sort of Australian equivalent of a redneck town. And everyone there is disturbing, drinks a lot.

There's a lot of drugs and fighting. There's a sequence in the middle where they get drunk and go in a jeep and drive out into the outback and start shooting kangaroos dead. And it's real footage of real kangaroos being blasted apart. Oh my God. real kangaroos being blasted apart. Oh, my God. Live kangaroos. It's, like, unwatchably horrifying. Cully was like, why did you make me watch that? I'm like, I don't know.

I've spoiled the evening. We should have just watched Bake Off. Anything. I love watching. I'll watch, like, yeah, MasterChef. Yeah, man, we watched Great British Bake Off, the celebrity one for Stand Up To Cancer the other day with Harry Hill and Roisin Cornity and people

like that on there. It was really funny. Are you tempted to bake off? Be on it? Yeah. I don't think I would get the call, but if I did yeah, wouldn't be averse. I'd be glad to see you on Bake Off. I like Harry Hill was really funny if I did, yeah, it wouldn't be a verse. Yeah, it'd be good. I'd see you on the break off. I like Harry Hill was really funny because he did his best.

His cakes were really good. Oh, he was genuinely good? I think so. He just really tried hard. I think that's what I would do. That would be my tactic. I'd be too insecure. Yeah.

I'd go, ah, I'm shit. I'd defecate into the pan or something. Would you ever do a reality show? It would be weird though, wouldn't it? It would be really weird. After where you came from and everything. I know. It would be...

And I've been asked. I don't think I would, mainly because of the toilets. I wouldn't do Big Brother because of the toilet situation. What do you mean? Well, you know what? It's like, I don't like going to the toilet in somebody else's house.

Uh-huh. Because you're a germaphobe. Not because I'm a germaphobe. I am a germaphobe. Yeah. But because it's shameful, isn't it? What do you mean? Shitting is a shameful activity.

Oh, I see. Right? It's shameful. So, if you're in somebody else's house, you don't go... If you're staying there for a couple of days and they've only got, like, one loo, it's like a fucking minefield. And imagine being in the Big Brother house

with a load of celebrities and cameras everywhere and you're mic'd up and there's only one little toilet that they all have to use. So you have to go in there. Everyone in there knows that you've gone for a shit. Like when you've gone for a shit. You'd have to time it really.

I don't like shitting on a plane. I don't like shitting in a public toilet. I don't. The only way I can shit in a public toilet is if I've got like I'm listening to music. And I put earphones in. And then I can blast away. It's like it's not really happening. Do you know what I mean?

You don't like the idea of other people imagining you doing your business. Is that it? I think so. Don't you have this? No. That's one of the very few hang-ups I don't have. I think it's surely quite common.

I remember... Okay, so if you're in a public toilet, doing a poo, that's not an unusual scenario. So you just nod at that. You're just like, oh yeah, of course. It's happened. I'm not a... I know what you mean.

Would you hold it? If you could, would you wait until you got hurt? Yeah. Yeah, of course you would. Because you're not an animal. But I don't mind. Every now and again, it will occur to me like, oh, I don't need to hold this. There are public toilets.

They have lockable doors. Oh yeah yeah but and the other thing is especially in airports for some reason i think uh you go in there and everyone's just a big windbag they've got off the plane or pressure or something and so you go into a airport toilet and it's just from every cubicle. And everyone's like, ah, doesn't matter. That's where I learned the music in the ears trick. Because exactly that. I was at an airport in between two connecting flights and I had to go.

Because it was like I was impaled on a banister. I was like, you know that feeling where it's just like there's a sort of clay spine wedged inside me. And I've got to get it out. And so, like, I went in there and I was just... And everyone around me was merrily shitting away. Like, pretty much... It was like a musical.

Like, Joy de Vive, which they were just fucking emptying their bums. And I'm there really all hung up and I had to and I I had to put loud music on so I couldn't hear my own noises

and then I just let it like went for it it was sort of life-affirming what about the jungle would you go in the jungle

no similar reason well no two reasons one there's the I mean there they're shitting in a hole aren't they basically

they're always talking about it how about Bear Grills Island you're on there for longer but it's less it's not fixed rig cameras it's not

constant surveillance in that same way there should be a guide to the comfort of the shit and versus the show that would be my first question to

the producers is where where does I mean not that I ever shit, because that's a shameful thing, but where would I, if I had to on Bear Grylls Island? Does he, does he watch me?

Does he have to coach me through it? Does he, does he cradle my face? Charlie's taking an amazing shit. That's it. Come on. It's really, really good.

It's coming out brilliantly. So important to take a shit. Every few hours, keep your energy up. And Charlie's taking. Come on. It's really, really good. It's coming out brilliantly. It's so important to take a shit. Every few hours, keep your energy up. And Charlie's taking a great one. That would be the worst. No, I wouldn't, because I think it would probably involve insects. I don't like spiders either. I'm sure that I wouldn't go in the jungle for that reason,

because they're like, Oh, you don't like spiders? Well, for this challenge, we're going to put spiders under your eyelids. And put one up your mum. And down the end of your willy. And close your pants on full of spiders. Oh, you're going to be sick. There's a lot of being sick on there.

So you're going to be sick. You're going to be sick. Mouth full of spiders. You're going to be sick. So, no. I wouldn't do it for all those reasons. Hello, my friend. It's good to see you again. I've got to say, you're looking great. No, I wouldn't do it Desert Island Discs. That's a fun thing to do.

Yeah, was it? She was really nice as well. Because I read somebody going, I saw somebody going, oh God, it's really awkward. She seems to hate him. Oh, no, I didn't get that. Oh, well, if she did, she hid it really, really well.

It's really difficult picking your eight songs, though. That's a nightmare. Afterwards, I didn't get that. Well, if she did, she hid it really, really well. It's really difficult picking your eight songs, though. That's a nightmare. Afterwards, I thought, oh, I should have put this in. I should have put that in. You end up, because you don't try and choose just your eight favourite, really. You're supposed to sort of, they don't really explicitly say this, but you know you're meant to choose eight tracks that will help tell a story about your life. you're meant to choose eight tracks that will help tell a story about your life so i mean i listen to a lot of music but i tend to listen to instrumental music a lot yes well i remember you

introduced me to granddaddy oh did i yeah because that was the theme for screen white yeah yeah yeah yeah um yeah software slump yeah and um it's a good very good album that it's really good yeah you played a video game track on Desert Island Dead yes

Robocop the Ariston ad as well as it's known yeah I love all that music there's something about the how simple it is and the

the fact that it loops yeah I used to listen to that from the off the Gameboy like it was a walkman yeah just that looping round and round and round i found it sort of haunting i've got a sort of playlist that i've built for writing it's all things like pie corner audio and like that and spotify is amazing because you sort of build a playlist and then it'll just go high corner audio like lots of like boom boom boom

bit radiophonic workshop meets halloween yes basically or the thing and stranger things yes it's that sort of tone so there's a lot of stuff like that that i'll write to because i find that helps somehow because you want to get into that space where you've lost track of time basically and if there's lyrics when i'm writing it, that distracts me. And often I don't like singers. There's a weird thing. There's very few singers I like, I realised. Oh, really? Because I think they're cunts. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, quite often, when British singers do a sort of transit

band, you know, they're, oh, yeah, you know, like that accent. Yeah. British singers. Which, weirdly, weirdly, I really like Radiohead even though Tom York sort of does it a bit doesn't he I'm trying to think but then he sings so in such an

unusual JPEG sort of way we used to we had a spliff Radiohead song we used to sing we at Zephyr Tron

we're in the called JPEG JPEG which was JPEG that was that was part Yeah, which was JPEG. That was part of the lyric. It was another lyric that was like

I can't remember. Why JPEG? Because it sounded like it was around key day time. Okay, right. It sounded like Techno fear. Yeah.

JPEG. Listening to Desert Island Discs, it was funny how similar your experiences, especially your formative cultural experiences were to mine. Watching too much TV, check. Ending up screaming at the TV, check. Worrying about the end of the world. Yeah.

Massive tick. Yeah. Because even though you were born a couple of years after me, I think you had that same experience of being consumed by nuclear fear. And we were exactly the right age to have nightmares about that slew of programs. When the wind blows. When the wind blows. Yeah. The old men at the zoo.

Do you remember that one? I didn't see that. No. That was a bit more of a strange BBC play it was a bit more allegorical but certainly The Day After

Threads Threads did you ever see the QED A Guide to Armageddon I think so yeah I got that

when we were doing Screen Wipe I dug it up out of the archive did that incorporate some of the public information films about how you were

supposed to take the door off the hinges and hide it showed you yeah well it showed you how rubbish that was okay it showed you how useless how that wouldn't basically help that you'd just die in a pit screaming your own shit no but there's a bit in in that where they intercut photographs of people's faces just candid, just random people in the street, fast intercut with a sort of loin of pork hanging on a hook, being exposed to the temperatures that a nuclear blast would generate.

So it's just all this crackling, bubbling, burning flesh intercut really quickly with pictures of just average members of the public. I remember seeing that, I must have been like, I don't know, 11? That's, I was not in a good place after that.

And it seemed inevitable, didn't it? It seemed absolutely like it was definitely going to happen. The most nightmarish thing for me was how blasé everyone was. Yes. Yes, absolutely. Why isn't everyone crying or talking about this or trying to sort it out all the time. Yeah.

Why isn't this like number one on the news? Yeah. It's still happening everyone. There's still, nuclear bombs are still a thing. Now I could never understand that. It's exactly that.

It's what, how can anyone walk around and think about kitchens? Like what's the point in getting some wallpaper? How's that wallpaper going to look when it's fucking burning off the wall?

You cunt. Like what's, what's wrong with you? Get, get a fucking grip. That's what it seemed like because it seemed like a crisis but then you grow up and you realize well that's life anyway though isn't it i guess i mean i don't know how i feel at the moment i keep i keep worrying about the end of the world a bit at the moment not really i don't worry about the end of the world because actually i sort of worry less about nuclear war now oddly it's more oh god what if it all turns into a giant fascist state that's that's the but then i try and console myself by

thinking that all the things i've worried about never quite happened how would you cope in a post-apocalyptic environment do you think how long would you bother no i'd be dead i would be gone by your own hand uh no i'd just be one of the first to go like when i have you ever been and done paintballing or anything like that laser tag yeah yeah i just do those things and i immediately die oh i immediately get quite killy do you yeah i mean i'm not great at that i but i really want to kill people when I do these things. Yeah, no, I've done it now a few times at centre parks when I go with my boys. And now, I mean, I was upset last time we went. They changed the whole playing field round.

I was like, holy Christ, there's like five years worth of tactics there on the toilet. I had my favourite tree where I used to go and hide and pick people off. But surely it's meant to be, if it's training you for a post-apocalyptic environment, which is, I'm sure, what centre parks have in mind, then really, surely part of that is to expect the unexpected.

You should be able to wander into any kind of killing arena and just look around and immediately assess it. You can't expect after the bomb goes off and you're wandering around

in the fucking wilderness to have your tree and your sort of layout that you want, you fucking... Who do you think you are? This is what i'm saying this is why i'm gonna die because there won't be a convenient bundle of sticks over by the tires i think i would immediately kill myself i think i would immediately it depends on the degree of the calamity if it was clear that, like,

there was never going to be Wi-Fi ever again, I would kill myself. Like, I think most people would. Because what's that fucking point? Like, you know, what would it be to make it not worth living anymore? I mean, and maybe Wi-Fi is a bit too... No, a bar.

But, like, no hot water. You have to live in a cave for the rest of your, you're alive. I'm not worried about those scenarios. Living in a cave? Yeah. What, you'd be okay with that?

Sure. Like cave painting, games, you know. Games? What sort of games? Just word games. Right.

Scratching, you know, knots and crosses on the wall with a bit of charcoal. And then you start drawing and, you know, it's like you've got all... Yeah, you're painting a rosy picture. You've got a wealth of human knowledge

to help you start again and build your own utopia from scratch. I think it's beyond that though, isn't it? Because you can't now. You'd have to look stuff up on Wikipedia or something. You can't do that. I could probably work out how to start a fire. Yeah.

I could because I've watched so many Bear Grylls programs. Oh, that's what I haven't done. You need to do that, mate. I could drink my own piss. I could start fires. I could forage grubs. Why do you drink your own piss? Cockroaches.

Is drinking your own piss actually worthwhile? Does it keep you alive? No, I just plucked that out. But you can certainly drink the other day he was in the desert in Arizona and half of it

seemed to be just completely fixed. Right. Oh, jumped out of a plane in a flight suit and now I'm down in Arizona in the desert. It's incredibly hot.

He said at one point it's like an incredibly dry oven. As opposed to a damp oven point it's like an incredibly dry oven as opposed to a damp oven it's like an incredibly dry oven down here we come across the wreckage of a small microlight that could possibly have been used to ferry drugs a lot of people ferry drugs in this part of the world but this is great because there's a lot of aluminium tubing that could be very useful to us and so first of all he rigged up a little buggy from the three wheels of this crashed microlight that's a fix isn't it yeah stumbled across like he's the a team yeah

and he had his uh parachute that he jumped out of the plane in. He grabbed onto the parachute and he was pulled along by the wind across the desert using his improvised buggy that he'd made from the crashed microlight. And then he had to find water. The most important thing is to find water. You've got to get water. It's the rule of three. You can live for three minutes without air, three days without water, or three weeks without food. You need water. You're only going to live for three days without water or three weeks without food you need water you're only going to live for three days without water that's the rule of three that's bear grills

rule of three he finds a stagnant pond it's green and it's got insects jumping around in it water we found some now it looks horrible it stinks and it's filthy but using one of the aluminium poles from the microlight I can make a filter and drink the water from this stagnant pond. Well so hang on, if he hadn't found this fucking microlight he'd have been so the whole thing is a

con. It is a con. You need to find a crashed microlight otherwise you're dead. He's a fucking, what a liar. But if you find the microlight, if you've got a pole, or even he said you can do it with bamboo if you haven't got a pole from a microlight. Which you haven't. Because that would never happen. Which you're highly unlikely to.

But if you do have some sort of cylinder or straw, you jam a bit of charcoal down. You can always find some charcoal in the desert because the lightning strikes and causes fires and then there's charcoal so find a bit of charcoal and make a filter and you stuff it in the pipe and then you put a few rocks down it and a bit of straw and then you can use the whole thing you just suck the water up through this pipe. And then he goes, and then just for a bit of extra filtration, you take your sock off and put your sock over the end of it and suck it through the straw.

Doesn't taste good, but it's going to keep you alive. That's good information to know. I mean, that's what I'm going to be doing in the apocalypse. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no! No! No! No!

No! No! No! No! No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no! In the course of vaguely reminding myself of some of the stuff I used to play video game wise, I came across this thing about Custer's Revenge. Did you ever hear of this video game? Custer's Revenge was a sex game.

Yeah. We did a games sort of edition of Screen Wipe called Games Wipe. Oh, yeah. And I think we saw it as part, or it came up as part of that. I can't remember if we put it in the show. It was like a rude game.

It was beyond rude. There were quite a few. I mean, it was actually, yes, it was. Adult video game produced by Mystique for the Atari 2600, released in 1982. In the game, the player controls the character of Custer, General Custer, depicted as a man wearing nothing but a cavalry hat, boots and a bandana, sporting a visible erection. Custer has to overcome arrow attacks to reach the other side of the screen.

His goal is to have sex with a naked Native American woman tied to a pole. Jesus Christ. I mean, that sounds like extreme satire, doesn't it? The game's designer, Joel Miller, said Custer was, quote, seducing the maiden and that she was a, quote, willing participant. Ultimately, the game was withdrawn from circulation. Right, I hadn't realised it was a commercially available product. Yeah.

Funky. Ranked 10th on the list of most racist video games in history. 10. There were quite a few. I seem to remember that we found there was another game where it was like Space Invaders but you're it was like reverse Space Invaders

there were sort of dicks in the sky spitting semen down and you were somebody at the bottom swallowing it to sort of go left and right and open your mouth and eat it it's weird, they don't really do that now do they with games? To sort of go left and right with and open your mouth and eat it. It's weird.

They don't really do that now, do they, with games? Do they not? Well, I don't think so. I'm sure you could get some weird things from Japan. So maybe it's because you wouldn't... There's fewer... Where would a game like that come out? Do you know what I mean? I suppose it could be...

It's as if I see quite a few X-rated adverts for naughty games every now and again. Do you? In the wrong places on the internet. Right. You see, maybe I for naughty games every now and again. Do you? In the wrong places on the internet. Right. You see, maybe I'm just too clean living. Like what? Like sort of, you are a bum. 3D bum simulator.

You're a bum. You're a bum going through a... You have to avoid other bums and bash against some boobs. No, it's nothing... 3D bum and boob breakout. Boob-y-long. What, like nude Warcraft? Yeah, exactly.

Right, okay. It's weird. You don't really get much sexual activity happening in games generally, do you? I never understood the desire to fuse those two worlds. It's like, one is over there for that time, and one is over there for that time and one is over there for that.

I don't need to think about sex while I'm having video games. But I can see the appeal of a silly, sort of like the classic knob doodle in the margins

of an exercise book. No, but nowadays though, it's so sophisticated that it would probably be like virtual porn. Yes, it would be horrible. Yes, it would be just weird.

Yeah, and there must be a load of stuff like that surely and 3d porn games you mean vr pornography games isn't that the first thing that's always done with any new bit of technology is pornography porn yeah it'll be like that bit in brainstorm when the guy's got a tape of someone shagging a young right i've never seen brainstorm but i know i know the storyline because I was worried that something we were doing was too similar to Brainstorm. So do they put it through an amplifier

or something? And maybe that was the thing I was suggesting in the story was that you could record the experience of somebody having sex and amplify it. This guy takes the safety protocols off so that his heart rate is allowed to just go where it will.

Right. And it's this old guy who gets a tape of someone having sex and he puts the brain box on and And dies. Imagines that he's having sex but his old ticker can't take it. Right. And it's a loop of, it's a sort of orgasm, greatest hits loop that this guy's given him. Right. So he's just like No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no backwards and upside down, this, that and the other. Or it's a whole sort of, like a choir of 20 people's orgasms all fused together in one sort of polyphonic orgasm.

Or you could do things like, you could record the experience of having a shit, but like fiddle with the parameters so that the shit is as wide as a car. And then make someone experience that. So you're shitting something the size of a car. And it would feel exactly what that would feel like. You'd think people would do it for, like, stag do's.

Come on, Colin, we're going out, we're going out. What are we doing? First you're going to shit a car. Then you're going to be fucking an elephant. From inside the body of a giraffe brave new world yeah so that's

we've got that to look forward to I don't know what I mean what the fucking hell can you imagine what it's going to be like being like a

fucking teenage boy or something when that stuff's around like what the fucking hell is that going to be like what are you going to do with your children

and like the internet and all that shit so Covey who's nearly six. Like, what the fucking hell is that going to be like? What are you going to do with your children and, like, the internet and all that shit? So, Covey, who's nearly six, he's five at the moment, but he'd gone and switched the PlayStation on and was using my account. They rolled out some new feature where you could sort of follow people, a bit like on Twitter. And I only found this out a few days later. Someone had sort of followed me, or him, because it's not under my name or anything, and he'd been communicating with them.

And it was nothing sinister. It was somebody in America who lived in a town that was the same name as my screen name that I was using. And they were just conversing with him, and he was just responding with, like, yes. No, because he couldn't, you know, he's five. He can't really type that much. So I had to have the people on the internet conversation with him.

I wasn't anticipating having that when he was five. I ended up showing him, remember the Charlie Says public information films from when we were kids and it was the cat, the one with the puppies, the one with the... Charlie and me were in the park and we were on the swings and suddenly a man came up and said, would we like to see some puppies? And I said yes

and it's really disturbing I showed that to him that's the one in the prodigy sample didn't they yes it's Kenny Everett that was

was it it's Kenny Everett doing the voice of the cat that was the prodigy bit wasn't it yeah yeah and it really

I think it disturbed him those cartoons isn't it eerie I showed him the young ones the other day oh how was that he was really laughing really quickly

at Rick Mayall dancing in the kitchen to the very first episode he thought that was hilarious I'm smiling just thinking about it and then like quite quickly

there's a bit where Vivian like stamps up and down on his hamster and shoves it in a toaster and I thought oh yeah stamps on SPG yeah don't should I show him this I don't know but then it was alright down on his hamster and shoves it in a toaster and i thought oh yeah stamps on

spg yeah don't should i show him this i don't know but then it was all right because then the hamster eats all the lentils and swells up like a balloon and does a fart and flies around the room and he was laughing again holy i mean i i feel as if i could recite every single one of those episodes uh nose and around was in the aroundose and Around Nose and Around that was I think that was in the first one that's like it's mental to watch

that show that was Ben Elton Ben Elton if you're a young adult weird how there's weird phrases that stick in your

head for years and years the one that comes is always in my head from the young ones is I'm tying my dog to the railroad track

choo choo train is gonna break his back we used to call him spot uh huh but now he's called splat that's the kind of

person we are oh baby won't you come home with me it's weird and I didn't know what the hell

it was all about no because they Because they were taking the piss out of sort of Rat Pack style crooners. Yeah, but that goes straight over that.

I don't know what that is. I don't think I understood half anything that Alexis L was saying. No. He'd come on

and he'd start talking about Solzhenitsyn or something and you're like I really don't know what I'm going with it. It's because I aspire to understand what you're talking about. Yeah. I don't know what but I'm going with it it's because I aspire to understand

what you're talking about yeah I don't know what the equivalent of that is today for because I must have been what 11 12 when that was on I

don't know what the equivalent for kids now is I suppose must be on YouTube right when he was a bit younger because he wanted to watch like

Stampy Cat who's a Minecraft YouTuber all the time and he's very wholesome Stampy Cat hi everyone hi here we are all the time. And he's very wholesome. Stampy, hi everyone, hi, here we are in Minecraft again. And he laughs like Jimmy Carr, weirdly.

Ha, ha, ha, ha. Like, sort of always. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. It's like a car alarm. Or a squeaky bit of furniture in another room that somebody's fucking on. Something with a really jaunty tempo. I don't know where I've got onto that. But Stampy Cat, so I was like,

what the fuck is this they're watching? What the fuck? And I sat there and watched it and went, and after about 25 minutes, sort of thought, oh, it's radio. Like, it's just got somebody burbling away. Yeah.

Just chat. It's just chat. That's actually what it is, isn't it? It's just the chat about the game. Then I sort of got it. So I was like, oh, okay, that's all right. It's Friday night. Tonight.

What are you going to be watching? Are you going to be watching anything on TV? Do you have any box sets on the go? I tend to watch things on iPlayer now more than I do... I don't tend to watch things as they get broadcast. Yeah. Inside No. 9 was the last thing I was watching

and I really liked Man Like Mo Bean as well. I don't know if you saw that. Oh, yeah, that looks great. Go calm. It's got some... I mean, it's a bit rough around the edges but really confident and there's some really good...

He's a funny guy. I follow him on Twitter. Yeah. And some really, really great performances throughout in that. And it's like very, very... It's like so confident. Inside No. 9 was the most recent thing, I think, where I looked at it and I thought, that's so cleverly done.

I don't know how... I could never do that. That's so cleverly... How the fuck did they do that do you know what I mean because you forget that doing it you do the first draft

and it's shit and the second draft is a bit less shit and you end up doing about fucking 15 drafts of everything without even realising it and so it actually ends up

it looks like you were really clever by the time you get to the end but you had to sort of get it wrong a hundred times and every time you start again you have to trick yourself into thinking that

you're only going to write one draft. Sorry, I'm rambling now. No, but that's the secret, isn't it? It's like, if people knew how magic tricks were done, they'd all be disappointed because the secrets are so prosaic. It's like, you just have to... Keep doing them.

Keep doing them. It's weird, though. It is weird because it is a thing that stops you writing in the first place. It's thinking, well, this is shit. While you're writing it, you think this is shit because it probably is shit compared to the stuff you've seen that's been gone through that process and been edited and polished.

And you know, so it seems shit while you're doing it. And so it's like, on the one hand, you have to just finish it. You have to just finish it and then you can start improving it. You have to sort of be in it for the long haul. But really,

I always have to trick myself into thinking things are definitely going to happen. I can't really write a script if I think it's not going to get made. Do you know what I mean? I have to like, or it might not get made, I can't.

How when people go into the movie industry and they spend like, they'll write the screenplay, or you'll get screenwriters who've got like a drawer full of 20 scripts that have never been made. Right, right. How do you sit down and write the next one then?

If that's the the why not just fucking jump out the window mate push that window open just fucking walk out fuck it because what's the point of all that

those little universes you've thought up into that drawer that living in that little drawer what's the point of that fuck it

you know do you know what I mean but like that's terrible isn't it i'm not advocating anyone should jump out of a window god you have to put disclaimers everywhere i'm absolutely not suggesting that that would be a tragedy wait this is an advert for Squarespace. Every time I visit your website, I see success.

Yes, success. The way that you look at the world makes the world want to say yes. It looks very professional. I love browsing your videos and pics, and I don't want to stop And I'd like to access your members area and spend in your shop These are the kinds of comments people will say about your website if you build it with Squarespace. Just visit squarespace.com slash Buxton for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, because you will want to launch, use the offer code Buxton to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. So put the smile of success

on your face with Squarespace. Yes. Continue. Hey, welcome back, podcats. Charlie Brooker there with the world-beating, percussive Jimmy Carr laugh. And that was also Charlie providing the continue this week, too. Thanks to Dan Hyman on Twitter for that suggestion. I just said Hyman, but that was his name, so what are you going to do? for that suggestion.

I just said Hyman, but that was his name. So what are you going to do? Thanks very much indeed to Charlie for interrupting his writing day in order to talk bullshit with me. I have now seen that episode of Black Mirror, San Junipero, that Charlie was scandalized I hadn't seen. And it's very good.

I recommend it if you haven't seen it yourself. Anyway, thanks again to Charlie. Thanks as well to those of you who got in touch and told me about the bird at the end of last week's episode. It was like an Easter egg. After like and subscribe for the hardcore of the hardcore who listened right to the end, you would have heard a recording of a bird that

sounded as if it had been brought up by josh wink the techno dj here's a short blast of it once again Sheila Larkin on Twitter, she says, Techno bird at the end of podcast 75 is a skylark, a summer visitor. It nests in the grass. It's usually the first bird to start singing early morning. Hence the term up with the lark. Smiley face. Thank you very much, Sheila and everyone else who pointed that out to me. This was supposed to be the last

in the current run of podcasts for a little while. I'm going to take a break for the summer and come back in the autumn with another set of weekly episodes. But Art Fund, who occasionally sponsor this podcast and are on a mission to encourage people to visit more of Britain's galleries and historical sites, etc. They got in touch and offered me the opportunity to walk around a London gallery with a friend of mine after hours and just chat about some of the art. Nothing, you know, we're not like plugging Art Fund right the way through.

We're just doing a normal podcast that happens to be in an art gallery. And my guest in the end was Tim Key, one of my favourite comedians, actors. So we recorded that just last week and it'll go out towards the beginning of June as a, yeah, as a sort of special edition of the podcast. And after that, break time. During that time, you might like to explore the Adam Buxton app. There's a wealth of Adam Buxton-based fun to be had on there. Bonus episodes of this podcast, currently unavailable anywhere else.

Links to all sorts of beyond brilliant videos that I've made over the years again some of which can't be accessed any other way but the Adam Buxton app there's some jingles on there there's some of the sponsor ads on there if you've enjoyed those in the past you might find your favorite on the app

and of course it's a portal from which you can leap to the merch site where you'll find specially designed t-shirts and mugs and posters stickers uh there's little collections of some of the jingles there available to download and keep. There's my DVD available on GoFasterStripe, the only DVD currently available of some of my live bits and pieces that I've done over the last few years. Not Bug, but similar to Bug in some ways. last few years not bug but similar to bug in some ways uh it's called adam buxton's old bits so you know if you miss me you can uh check out that stuff what do you think rose you shaking off the ticks there i'm taking a walk in the dandelion clocks yeah just two weeks ago this field was covered in bright yellow dandelions and now they've all transformed into their fluffy clock versions time is marching on and there's nothing we can do to stop it

you're boring is this about the ticks still you didn't even get to know them there so one of them was really funny the other one was nice and just listened to what i had to say yeah but they were sucking your blood all of that time and quite possibly giving you deer disease as well at least they paid attention to me what how can you say that i dote on you my phone listeners my phone the other day i noticed that it used to be full up with pictures of my children. And in the last year, there's still a few pictures of my children there. But now it's mainly just pictures of trees, sunsets and Rosie. That'll be what I call my pastoral album when it comes out.

Anyway, thank you very much indeed once again to Charlie Brooker. Thanks to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his production support on this episode thanks to acast for hosting this podcast and many other terrific ones and thanks of course most of all to you for listening right to the end for listening at all let's face, and for your continued encouragement and open-minded support of the podcast. Very much appreciated. All right, let's head home. Rosie!

Rosie! Rose! Till next time, we're together. Please go carefully. Try to be nice. Avoid tics. And remember, I love you. Bye! Give me like a smile and a thumbs up. Nice like a pat when they bums up. Give me like a smile and a thumbs up.

Nice like a pat when they bums up. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Please like and subscribe. Give me like a smile and a thumbs up. Nice like a pat when they bums up. Give me like a smile and a thumbs up.

Nice like a pat when they bums up. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Bye. សូរបស់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប� Thank you.