THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.87 - NISH KUMAR

Episode Date: December 10, 2018

Adam talks with British stand up comedian, actor and radio host Nish Kumar about football, communal baths, India, comedy, angry political exchanges and towards the end we take a deep dive into some of the music Nish has loved over the years, including Bob Dylan, Prince and the highs and lows of being a Bowie fan. Speaking of Zavid, there’s a very special musical treat at the end of our conversation for Nish and Bowie fans alike, depending that is, on your definition of the words ‘special’, ‘musical’, and ‘treat’.Thanks to Seamus Murphy-Mitchel for production support and to Anneka Myson for additional editing.Music and jingles by Adam BuxtonThe ‘I Just Bumped Into You’ jingle features bass from Dan Hawkins: https://www.onlinebassplayer.com/ and instruments from the Soniccouture plug in: http://www.soniccouture.com/en/RELATED LINKSGUIDE TO KERALA AND SOUTH INDIAhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSeUuA5K1zEROMESH AND NISHhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEw4kxAFchQ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human folk Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan. Hey, how you doing, podcats? Adam Buxton here. I am out at night.

Well, I mean, it's only, it's not even five yet, but it is totally, totally night. Because of the time of year, I'm recording this on the 9th of December. I can still see a little bit of light on the horizon over to the west. But if I turn around, the sky is absolutely dark. The stars are out. It's a very beautiful night, albeit really, really cold. Over there, I haven't got my glasses on, but I can see a blurry kind of red star, very bright. I'm going to use my stargazing app to see if I can find out what that is. There's lots of stargazing apps available out there.

I'm using one called Skyview Light. Not sponsored by them, but you know, just in case you're interested. I found it works quite well for me. You calibrate the thing first and it gets a GPS lock and then you can hold it up to the sky and it will show you all the stars that are up there, even if it's a cloudy night, and all the planets too. And if you dip it down below the horizon, it'll show you what you can't see as well. You can find where the International Space Station is and all the great, great planets, Jupiter down below the horizon.

So this red thing that I'm looking at, red blurry star, is Mars, it's telling me. I didn't know Mars was just sat there, visible. I need Brian Cox out here with me, that's what I need. Anyway, listeners, how are you doing? Very nice to be back with you. Now, this is going to be the last podcast, but one this year. After this, the next one will be out on the 25th, morning of. Or maybe if I get it together, I'll plop it into Santa's sack on Christmas Eve.

So it'll be with you on Christmas morning and it'll be myself and Joe Cornish exchanging silly gifts and enjoying some inconsequential Christmas chat fun. Anyway, let me tell you about this week's podcast, number 87, which features a conversational ramble with British stand-up comedian, actor, and radio host, Nish Kumar.

He was on Richard Herring's podcast the other day. He's been on other podcasts, but it worked out that Richard and I more or less doubled up on Nish, although we recorded them at different times, I think. And this will be, I dare say, quite a different type of conversation to the one that Richard had. Not so many emergency questions in my one. Now I would imagine most of you know who Nish Kumar is. You've probably seen him on any number of TV shows here in the UK, including Joel and Nish versus the world. It's a sort of comedy travel show, I suppose, in which Nish and comedian Joel Domet explore the health benefits of a lifestyle based upon ancient wisdom versus the very western lifestyle that they are accustomed to. Quoting from

Wikipedia there. Nish was also an excellent and memorable contestant on Taskmaster and he is currently hosting the political satire show The Mash Report on BBC Two. I sat down with Nish in October of this year, 2018, when he was on a break from touring around the country with his stand-up show, which is called It's In Your Nature To Destroy Yourself. It's a bit presumptuous, isn't it? And we spoke about, amongst other things, football, communal baths, India, comedy, angry political exchanges. And towards the end, we take a deep dive into some of the music that Nish has loved over the years,

including Bob Dylan, Prince, and the highs and lows of being a Bowie fan. Speaking of Zavid, there's a very special musical treat at the end of our conversation for fans of Nish and Zavid Bowie, depending, that is, on your definition of the words special, musical and treat. I'll be back at the end for a little bit more waffle cake.

But right now, here we go. Ramble chat, let's have a ramble chat. We'll focus first on this, then concentrate on that. Come on, let's chew the fat and have a ramble chat. Put on your conversation coat and find your talking hat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, We play for 90 minutes. 90 minutes? What position do you play? I play in defence quite a lot. Okay. And I'm very good at sort of instructing other people on where they should be.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you a shouter? Yeah, yeah, I love a shout. Right. To be honest, a lot of the energy gets expended on people shouting instructions at other people. I went to see my son playing football on the weekend. And he's really pretty good, I would say. how old is he he is 14 and also he's just tremendously enthusiastic and he's he's so into it he's really like right okay so intense it's crazy i don't know where it

comes from i guess his mom maybe but um on the pitch next door were some older guys. And they were just swearing so much. And I just thought, don't swear. I don't want to hear you swear. I wasn't worried about the boys on my son's team or anything. I'm sure they've heard swear words. I just thought, this is why I don't like football. Because swearing, all right, that's fine.

It's not the end of the world. But they were so angry. You know what I mean? They were just like, you fucking idiot! That was fucking wide open! I was like, what is the problem? I've played in, but mainly walked past games that are of that intensity. And you always think, is this fun for you?

This is supposed to be your leisure time. Why are you so wound up? So you're supposed to sort of shrug it off. You're not supposed to get offended by it. Because if someone used that tone with me, I would cry. When you watch football games, there's a certain linguistic lassitude. Yeah. You know, there's no other circumstance in which it would be three o'clock on a Saturday

and you'd be stood in a group where there are loads of children, where it is just completely acceptable to scream the C word at a man who's really only trying to enforce the rules in a game. I can't think contextually of another time where that would be in any way acceptable.

Politics? Yeah. It's heading that way, isn't it? Absolutely in politics, mate. It's heading that way. God, they're all as bad as each other. The House of Lords, eh? We'll come back to that.

But the other thing was that I'm such a weedbag that I can't even shout encouragement. I find that super embarrassing. Do you just sort of silently offer your support yeah i just sort of stand back like um probably i look like a creepy man who doesn't have a son playing in the game just with your full podcast equipment just because something happens that's a bit you know i'm wearing my backpack i've got my shorts on i've got a baseball cap on i probably look like a creep who should be stopped from coming to the football game what are those games like?

because 14 I remember that being quite a weird age in terms of playing sport because some kids are massive like some kids just suddenly shoot up that's right because I played cricket for a while when I was sort of 11, 12

and then when we got to 13, 14 I mean I had my growth spurt quite late and it was a short old spurt. But I remember when I... It's a phrase I'm very familiar with. But it was one of those weird things where all the other kids grew. We came back one summer when we were 13

and some of the kids were massive yeah it must be such a weird age to like have a child in and kind of like see them where some kids are huge and you do you still have communal showers when you play sport ball no good lord no no no because that was the thing i remember when as exactly as you say when i was around that age maybe a little younger than 14 yeah 12 13 but even then there was this crazy discrepancy physically between some boys and others you know some were just little hairless pixie boys yeah and then others would be like they're talking like this and you would equipment. Whoa. Look at that. That is a massive unit.

And it's the hair and everything. Is that what's going to happen to me? Wow. The changing rooms at my school was so bad, they didn't even have showers. It was just this kind of long sort of Dickensian corridor that everyone would just change in. And so there wasn't really the... And I actually don't have that experience

because we would finish games at the end of the day and just all go home and shower separately. Yeah. Because you would have basically had to sort of wash in the sink. Uh-huh. And so I think there probably was one shower, but I think it got shut down due to essentially... The room, I think, just became a Veruca.

I think it just became a sort of Veruca zone that you just all, like, if you stepped in there, you got a Veruca in your face. I think that's what happened with it. Did you ever do the communal bath? No. It's like a Roman bath. Yeah, I was about to say.

Did you go to school in ancient Rome? Ancient Rome. Yeah. It looked like a massive cistern or something or a septic tank. I don't know. Big concrete square. Yeah. And it was just full of water and all the guys would get in.

And it was a little bit warm, but it was absolutely brown, you know, because of all the mud. I didn't want to get into it i didn't like sport so yeah to me this was just more grist to my anti-sport i thought this is barbaric but i'm glad that you think it's barbaric yeah i think that that's bizarre yeah yeah i don't know i mean is this going to be one of those podcasts that gets on the news there was no interference there was a teacher that used to give us what he called twizzles oh good lord watch out if bbc news you might want to tune in right now twizzles and it would definitely involve a lot of physical contact it would be like he would do the thing where you bend down and you put your hands through your legs and then he grabs your hands and flips you right round have you ever

done that no it's quite fun right okay with children as long as they're your children yes or that is such an important yeah piece of information to add on to a lot of stuff. Or if they're, you know, friends. Yeah, yeah. Children of friends or whatever. But so he would do that. And also there would be, there was one twizzle I remember that was a little bit more inappropriate possibly. Which was that he more or less made himself, his whole body into a slide.

Good Lord. And you would sort of slide down him. So that doesn't sound good in retrospect. But we did love Twizzles. And as far as I'm aware, there was no, he didn't do anything worse than twizzles. It's the worst possible word.

I don't know if there would be a good word for it, but it is the worst possible word for it. Winkles would have been worse. Winkles would have been worse. Yeah. Winkles. Tiddlies would have been an absolute nightmare. Oh, a simpler time

a simpler a simpler well we're going back there it's the first thing after Brexit is Twizzles

return that's what it's been all about do you think that that sort of level of semi-psychotic innocence

would return if sort of Trumpism spread and populism? Do you think that would be one of the consequences, that rampant populism would result in just a return to the values of the thing with both of the strains of populism, I think, that have taken hold here and in the States, is that there's this kind of fondness for a sort of nebulous past that nobody can quite put a date on. I think it might be the 1950s, maybe. I think that that's... And in America.

And in America, yeah. Yeah. I think definitely the 1950s in America has a kind of glow to it because... As long as you weren't black. As long as you weren't anything other than a white man. Yeah. A straight white man. A straight white man, of course, yeah.

I think that must be the time that they're after. I think that must be what it is. Mad men. Yeah, mad men, yeah. I mean, God, Mad Men, it looks like a bloody nightmare, to be honest. It does, doesn't it? It looks like an absolute bloody nightmare. One of the more depressing shows that I ever watched.

Like, Breaking Bad may be number one depressing show for me. I have never watched Breaking Bad. Have you not? No. Also, you're putting the emphasis on the breaking. Oh yeah, that's, well, that shows you what a newcomer I am to the bad franchise.

Um... Better call Saul. That's how I pronounce that. LAUGHTER There was a channel that existed for about 20 minutes in about 2007. It was like a Channel 5 subsidiary.

It was like 5 USA. And it made two very high-profile acquisitions and then just disappeared after a year. And it was Breaking Bad and 30 Rock. I think it might still exist, but only be a delivery system for every different spin-off of NCIS. But at the time...

Have you ever watched NCIS? I feel like I must have seen one surely like nci yeah oh yeah of course not voluntarily no disrespect no disrespect ncis podcast listening but come on guys you can't have seen everything else it's also there's there's so much, there's so many of them. You think with Law & Order, you're like, we've got Law & Order, so we've really covered a lot of policing. I think it's like the bill for America, isn't it? Did the bill have spinoffs?

Well, I don't know if it had spinoffs, but the bill provided a very valuable service, which was that it employed almost every single actor every single director anyone who wanted to work in the industry at some point passed through the bill and got valuable training there i mean i'm sure it was a very entertaining show as well right let's go again what don't you understand kick your ass Let's go again! What the fuck is it with you? I want you off the fucking set, you prick! No!

You're a nice guy! The fuck are you doing? No! Don't shut me up! No! No! Ah, da-da-da-da, like this! No! No! Don't shut me up! Ah, da-da-da-da, like this! Fuck's sake, You're amateur Seriously man

You and me We're fucking done Professionally Is the name Nish Short for anything? The name Nish Is short for Nishant Okay

Well actually I'm pronouncing that Very poorly It's short for Nishant Uh huh Which is a I think it's Sanskrit And it means

Night's end So it means the dawn Oh that's nice. Yeah. That's a good name. I was thinking it was short for the Punisher. How great would that be if it turned out it was short for the Punisher? Yeah.

And also that I'd never mentioned that on stage. Right. I've done... You're so modest, I was thinking. Or the Astonisher. The Astonisher. If I ever become a Victorian magician and there were a number

of different obstacles standing in the way to that but if I ever became a Victorian magician the Astonisher would be a great name for me Nish the Astonisher

hang on I read though that Nish generally means by the ash tree or adventurer does it really? apparently

so where did you get that in? where did you get that in from? I mean maybe that's what did you say the full name was nishant maybe that's nishant yeah might be and nish is a separate name nish also there's like it's like a slang term that means i think it might even be a yiddish slang term meaning nothing oh yeah okay yeah yeah yeah i got nish yeah yeah there's a few different things that nish crops up as but yeah nishanth is i don't know why at what point i dropped the second syllable of my first name but i think to be honest most of my life i've only ever been addressed by my full name

if i was being told off by my parents the comedian and occasional poet tim key is one of the few people who insists on calling me Nishant Kumar. Oh, yeah. He insists on full, full naming me. I mean, I'm quite fond of full names. It's quite nice, isn't it? Yeah. And where does the name Kumar come from? The name Kumar comes from my father

improvising on some immigration paperwork. Is that really true? Yeah. People from India find it bizarre that my surname is kumar because it's a very traditional north indian name it's interesting it's a really strange thing where are your family from in south india kerala kerala yeah kerala is basically famous for i mean it's a very arrogant state slogan but the state slogan is god's own country right so it's famous for being an area of incredible natural beauty.

And it's they've really pushed it as a kind of tourist hotspot. So it's funny going to Kerala over a kind of period of I mean, I first went when I was a year old. But the first time I remember going, I was probably about seven or eight years old. And in a kind of 20 year period, 25 years, it's amazing how many more tourists there are now it's become a really big tourism thing honestly when we first went and my mum would always say if they if someone saw a white person in the street the whole village would be like guys get a load of the white guy you heard about the white guy he's just walking around being white it's like they're normal people it's so weird let's all go and stare it was a big thing yeah but now it's like

bloody whitey city mate yeah it's it's really amazing how it's kind of it's become a sort of tourism hotspot yeah i mean other than tourism what it's known for is consistently electing marxist representation right and maintaining i think think, maybe slightly off on the figure here, but approximately about 92% literacy rate. Like they've nearly got full literacy in the state. Ah. And. So is it in good shape then with their Marxist representation? Are they?

Yeah, ish. The problem is that a lot of the industry fled because, I mean, it's communism. Because they were their bourgeois oppressors they were the bourgeois oppressors so the bourgeois oppressors bounced yeah there was a long time where there weren't really jobs and a lot of the younger members of my family ended up moving to bigger cities and so a lot of them ended up in bangalore which is a big city in the south of india and it's like a logical migration point i mean still, you know, it's still an hour and a half plane ride, but in Indian geographical terms,

it's a close big city. Some of them ended up moving to Chennai, which is another kind of close big city. And then the Kerala kind of state government basically started to push tourism. And now it is a sort of thriving place. And it's a fascinating place. My family in Kerala is like part of a sort of thriving place. And it's a fascinating place. My family in Kerala is like part of a group of people

that operate a matrilineal system of inheritance. So you take everything, including your surname, from your mother's side. So it's got a kind of interesting relationship with, I mean, I'm loathe to call it feminism. There are obviously issues with the treatment of women in that state, but there is this sort of undercurrent of a progressive treatment of women because it's, you know, everything passes through the mother's side.

And yeah, there's a huge emphasis on education. And what's the reason for that beyond some sort of progressive notion? I actually don't, I don't know what the history of it is. I mean, it's just kind of the way that the families have been structured for so many years. Just that the matriarch is a more significant force. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. In that culture, right?

Yeah. And, but it's a fascinating state. And it's, you know, there's such a heavy emphasis on getting educated and, you know, teaching, sending boys and girls to school and getting them educated. Yeah. And yeah, we're not like the fun Indians, you know, like our family weddings. Who are the fun Indians? The fun Indians are the Punjabis, man.

Everyone knows the Punjabi. When we in the West think of an Indian wedding, what you were thinking of is a Punjabi wedding. Okay. Because it's like, it's a big party. That thing where people come in on elephants that's all punjabi stuff and that's a bollywood style yeah bollywood style the idea that it goes on for three days as well that's a real and also punjabis are notorious in india as

being like they're the party boys and girls they really know how to get down. And there it's booze and food and dancing constantly. Our weddings are, I mean, listen, a tedious affair. It is a very, it is an administrative procedure and lunch. That's really how we like to take care of things. It's like, it's completely different now when I go to like. That's what it says on the inbox. Yeah, administrative procedure and lunch. like to take care of things it's like it's completely different now when i go to like it's like completely different now because when i go for my cousin's weddings they're all doing like dancing and stuff because they've all got north indian friends and they've kind of they

don't want to have the administrative procedure lunch style wedding so we've sort of borrowed the fun bits we have to outsource our fun yeah instinctively we're quite serious people so what would you do if you were a tourist and you visited there what kind of things do you do well you go to the um the backwaters which is this kind of already sounds good already sounds good get on a houseboat in the backwaters okay right and um spend your time in there then you can go to the tea stations in the north of the state. They've got these kind of mountains with all of these tea stations on top of them.

And it is absolutely just stunning. Like, it's incredibly beautiful. And then there are also sort of beach holidays as well. Yeah. Yeah, those are the three big things that people like to do. It's the tea stations in the north, the backwaters, and then yoga on the beach. Good one.

It's a good holiday. Kerala, come on. It's a really good holiday. I like it. The holiday horn, it goes do-do-do. Holiday time. Have a carrot, have two carrots. these are questions that i got from reading a sunday times interview by emma wells this weekend i think yeah

and well here's the thing, right? Here's why I don't feel that bad. Because I actually ended up having to buy a subscription to read the fucking article. I just thought, oh, come on. You know, there's some nice interviews with you. But they're all on the short and silly side. Yeah. And this one seemed a little more in-depth. She was asking me about my house.

Yeah. I think in a weird way that it was a more intimate interview in some ways. Yeah. I learned more from that one. Yeah. But it was one of those ones where you look at it and you start reading and you think, oh. And then the type fades out.

Yeah. And then there's just a big block saying, time to subscribe. And I signed up i subscribed to the times i'm gonna unsubscribe immediately but anyway so i ended up paying about um uh eight pounds fifty or something to read this interview with you for a month subscription to find out and let's see what I think I got three questions out of it. So that's pretty good.

Well, let's see how it goes. You're on less than this has cost you less than three pound a question. Yeah. So you've got to you've really got to make these answers.

Right, okay. Let me pour the rest of this coffee. All right. So I gleaned for eight pounds fifty which you already told me, that you live in a rented flat in Shepherd's Bush. Correct. 100% correct.

Near Whitey City. Near Whitey City. Very near Whitey City. How long have you been in the bush? I've been in the bush for four years. Yeah. Yeah, 2014. How is it?

Because there's good and bad in the bush, isn't there? I absolutely love the bush. Yeah, do you? Yeah, I love it. I was born in the Gold Hawk Road. Really? Yeah. Oh, so you're more of a bush baby.

I'm a bush man. You're more of a bush man than I will ever be. Did you then live there for a time? No, we went to Earl's Court. Ah, right, right, right. We got out of the bush. You got to get out of the bush. Yeah, yeah.

I really love it. I, right, right, right. We got out of the bush. You got to get out of the bush. Yeah, yeah. I went, I really love it. I mean, here's my requirements. I need to be able to buy Arab food, fried chicken, and toilet paper at 1am. Sure. And I can do all of those things in the bush. Good one. And yeah, I live very near cinema, which is also, I like to be walking distance from a cinema. How's the behaviour in the shepherd's bush cinema uh to be honest i don't know how it is in the standard because i go very

late at night or very early in the afternoon so i go during the day when there's no one there best time or i go after gigs at night which i which is a really great time to go and see. Do they do late shows? Yeah. What time? 11 p.m., midnight. Wow. There's proper late shows there.

I didn't know that still happened because me and Joe used to go to late shows all the time. It's so great. Yeah. It's so great. Yeah, I've seen some really good stuff late night. I mean, my preference is always first thing in the morning. I think part of the reason I became a stand-up comedian is to facilitate going to the cinema in the daytime.

Exactly. That's right. It's such a huge factor and a huge positive for me about my job and my lifestyle. I like to go early in the morning and get a film in. It's a huge privilege. Early in the morning is, I've never done that. I mean, again, early in the morning, you have to understand, in the morning is i've never done that i mean again early in the morning you have to understand stand-up comedian so the time frames are different

i'm talking 11 a.m right okay i'm talking 11 a.m sure yeah yeah you've got children that's the middle of the day yeah that's lunchtime first thing in the morning you're a functioning member of society am i right in saying at one point james acaster was your flatmate yeah james acaster has lived with me. So were you part of that generation of comedians then? Did you all kind of come up together? And who am I thinking of, Josh Widdicombe and people like that? 100%, yeah.

That's absolutely my... It's funny with stand-ups, how it breaks down into school years in some ways. And my graduating class is absolutely James Acaster, Josh Whittacombe, Ed Gamble, Sarah Pascoe. It's very squarely that era of comedians. And you were all just sort of gigging around London at the same time as younger comedians, is that right? Yeah, we probably all started... Well, I went to university with Ed Gamble.

I went to university with Ed Gamble and Tom Neenan. In Durham, was it? In Durham, yeah. So we went to university with ed gamble i went to university with ed gamble and tom neenan in durham was it in durham yeah so we went to you have done your reason that eight pounds 50 yeah that is money in the bank mate um i yeah so i went to university with ed gamble and tom neenan and i started doing sketch comedy with them and going to edinburgh and then they started a stand up night university so i started doing stand-up at university and then moved back home to Croydon in sort of 2007 and kind of did a couple of odd like was doing office jobs and I sort of slightly bailed on doing comedy for a while because I think you know there was a lot of you know will this? And a lot of my parents just going, what are you doing? Yeah, yeah.

And then... What was your stuff like then? I mean, I think my fifth or sixth gig is actually weirdly on YouTube because we entered this competition that was like the Chortle Student Comedian of the Year. And they just have those videos up there. And they exist as this kind of weird time capsule of stuff you're doing and it's it's weird when you see the people who've done it and you know there's like a video of John

Kearns on there with no wig and teeth and doing something that doesn't resemble his act in any way shape or form it was probably my fifth or sixth gig and I mean it was I was sort of telling stories from my life it was very anecdotal there was probably a bit of race stuff in there there definitely was a bit of race stuff in there and it was a lot of funny things my parents said funny things that happened to me um and yeah it was very much like story based and race stuff sort of playing with the audience's expectations of what they were going to get from you or just straight talking about your experience? Goodness gracious me, sketch comedy was the way that I processed racism and I processed my understandings around race. I wasn't doing a huge amount of reading around race.

I was engaging with it through stand-up comedy and sketch comedy. And so I think it was pretty inevitable that it was going to come into it at some point. But what I was mainly telling was stories of racial abuse incidents and stuff because there was a lot of it around because i went to secondary school in a place called orpington which is in kent and it was it's not very ethnically diverse at all durham again is not hugely ethnically diverse so you would have these kind of confrontations every so often what kind of thing well in durham it was a really weird thing because people would

there were certain crossings where cars would just pull up and they would just shout out the window and you sort of think what i don't know what you hope to achieve you're different yeah because i don't know what i'm supposed to do with this information like it's like i really don't understand what what i'm so i'm like sorry i guess i don't know why are you different this is not you're not getting you're not giving me anything to go on I don't understand what, I'm like, sorry, I guess. I don't know. Why are you different? This is not, you're not giving me anything to go on. Yeah.

So a lot of it was that sort of stuff. I think it was probably a bit Chris Rock. I was very much in thrall to Larry David at that time. I mean, I love Curb and I especially loved the standup that that is in the first the pilot episode of curb and you feel immediately the show kind of hitting the ground running and being being what it becomes very quickly but yeah the stand-up insertions do make it much more like larry like the show that seinfeld could have been if it had been about Larry David. But it makes complete sense that they moved away from there because you feel very quickly. But I was I loved that stand up and it was probably very inflected by those two people. Yeah. But then I kind of started doing open mics in London around 2000 and bit in 2007, but then really in 2008.

And so those were the people around. So I already knew Ed and Tom. really, in 2008. And so those were the people around. So I already knew Ed and Tom. And then the people that I met, you know, in the first kind of year were James, Josh, I can't remember, maybe Sarah, Susie Ruffle, John Kearns.

There was a Sunday night gig in Ballam that a bunch of us would turn up to and just sort of hope to get on. And that was the start of me really, like, learning how to do stand-up. Oh, I did so few of those gigs. Yeah. Because I was too cowardly. The ones I did do, I was in character anyway.

Right, right, right. Because I couldn't face just being myself. What year was that? What year was that? 2005? Right, okay. Oh, right, yeah. So just, like...

Yeah, because I started really late. Yeah. I used to watch Edinburgh Nights, was it called? Yeah, sure. On TV, and there would be compilations of stuff that was happening at the Fringe. Yeah. And I'd sort of sit there and think, I think I could do that. Yeah.

Me and Joe were like, we didn't know what the hell we were doing. We were sort of floundering around having done our TV show. Right, yeah. Yeah. And I just had, I had two children by then and I was, you don't have children, right? I don't know.

Um, they're really, really great, but you don't need to. You don't need more than one. I'm joking. That was a little joke. Um, I think I did one gig Sean. That was a little joke.

I think I did one gig when I actually turned up as myself and spoke to the audience as myself. And that was enough to demonstrate to me that I should never do that again. I think that you know pretty quickly. It's just being confronted by your own mediocrity is so chastening. Oh, my God. Yeah. And I couldn't really get beyond it. You do you how did you get i think it's one of those things where you just know that it's for you quite quickly and i think the point you really know it's for you is if you have a terrible gig

because a terrible stand-up gig i mean i've had a long running conversation with james acaster about whether it is more undignified for him to have a bad gig or me to have a bad gig because James is sort of very low energy this off-kilter alpha nerd persona who seems to be kind of on a different planet to the rest of the audience and he says that when it is a bad gig, it looks like he's not trying. It just looks like he's not even trying to meet them halfway. Whereas I think my style is less dignified because it's me being like, hey, everybody, we all love politics. And I think that that in a way is almost less dignified as a death. But you think you're sort of a more needy presence? Yeah, I think I'm more.

Well, you need to engage. Yeah, I'm more trying to engage with them and i'm trying to be more affable than james and more of a sort of normal human being and i think that that in a way is more undignified at least james's just seems to be on another planet yeah but it's if they can sniff that you want to be liked on some level you're fucked you're completely fucked you're complete but what what's interesting is that the audience can sniff dishonesty and i don't mean that in terms of there's a weird thing where people talk about um stand up like it's some sort of fucking religious thing where they're like you have to be you know truth yeah truth soul bearing fuck off like it's but that's all horseshit it's not dishonesty i

mean that they can sniff discomfort in the performer and if what you're doing on stage or lack of commitment lack of commitment anything if what you're doing on stage is not comfortable to you an audience can sniff that a mile off and i think there are times when i was starting out certainly where i sort of tried on a more off and I think there are times when I was starting out certainly where I sort of tried on a more aggressive onstage persona there were some where I tried to sort of be a bit more of like a sort of cheeky chappy none none of that stuff works and it doesn't mean that you have to sort of be authentically yourself on stage it just means you have to be comfortable on stage and so for some people I mean Stephen Wright's a great example of he kind of goes into a performance mode you know there's there's this kind of version of himself that he does on stage and

that's him being comfortable on stage and james acaster is a really good example of someone who is not necessarily himself on stage is a a kind of, he goes into a version of himself. How fast did he get to that point? It's a real evolution. You know, his first show was a lot of sort of funny stories about his family. And a lot of audience interaction. He just got weirder and weirder. The first show is like this kind of, he's like this kind of funny bloke.

And he's sort of a bit of a loser and a bit of a nerd and then the second show he got weirder and started talking about how he'd done lots of research on bread and then the third show was a whole show with him talking about yoko ono and then the fourth show that he did is the first show of his netflix quadrilogy right which is him pretending to be an undercover policeman and i think that's where he fully embraced the things that he really found funny on stage yeah and the physicality as well as so is it a cliche to say that he looks like he's channeling jarvis cocker yeah he's got definitely some he's got some like jarvis vibes but even when

you when you talk about doing character stuff on stage that is a version of comfort on stage yeah and that's why I find it always a bit strange when people talk about like it's about honesty and the truth and you're like no yeah I mean I'm not really up for being too prescriptive about anything exactly yeah people want to have rules and they they want to feel as if there is a craft there. Yeah, sure. And I can understand that. And you can definitely see people who are better at it than others. Yeah, absolutely.

And you can definitely get better and all those things. But there's always going to be exceptions to every rule. I think it's a real shame when you have this blank canvas of a person and a microphone. And that's the joy of stand-up. And the joy of a Mixville stand-up night is you might see two people just talking about their lives and one person juggling and, you know, pretending to be a character.

That's the sort of fun of stand-up. I really loved Nanette, the Hannah Gadsby show. Yeah. And I find it really irritating when I hear, and it's particularly male comedians, and it's a lot of the guys from the States, so I find it really irritating when I hear people and it's particularly male comedians, and it's a lot of the guys from the States, so I find it really irritating when I hear people kind of going, this isn't comedy, this isn't comedy.

Like, it is. I mean, first of all, it is comedy. There's lots of jokes in it. But also it's using an hour-long comedy show to interrogate the whole notion of comedy. And that, to me, is really exciting. It's expanding the vocabulary of what's possible on stage yeah also don't worry all the comedy is not going to be like

yeah that's just one show that's just yeah it's so weird that people think that somehow oh now oh so i suppose now everything and you're like no that's the pleasure of it. I love the idea that you can kind of flick through Netflix and it can be Hannah Gadsby, you know, really kind of bearing her soul in a really extraordinary way. And then sort of John Mulaney telling a kind of funny, goofy story about growing up in the Catholic church or Maria Bamford just, I mean, being unbelievably hilarious. Yeah, playing in little tiny rooms to six people and stuff. That's so funny. I saw that show in Montreal in 2016, the show that is the old baby special. It wasn't even in retrospect that I think this.

I came out of that and said to my friend, I think that is easily one of the three or four best hours of stand-up i've ever seen in my entire life it's one of those things where you literally she starts and it feels like you then look at your watch because it's over and you can't believe yeah that it has just flown by and that some of the material in that special is absolutely just incredible. Like she has this whole joke about driving past graveyards and going, what happened? And it's like, it's, oh, fuck, man. She's so good.

She's so funny. Sometimes I think with a Hannah Gadsby or whatever, the critical momentum will be such that people just feel steamrolled by it. Right, sure, yeah. And they're like, oh, now everything has to be like this now, does it? Yeah, sure, yeah. This is the apex of genius now. And you just think, no, come on, that's not what I thought comedy was supposed to be about, making people laugh. This is just, she's telling everyone how awful they are.

Yeah. But people just respond that way when they feel anxious and threatened, don't they? And you get that so much politically these days oh my god yeah i mean the whole banner of free speech has been so irritatingly taken up by these tools that it that it sort of marginalizes and it it makes it that much harder for people who want to talk in a nuanced way about what's going on yeah politically you know because then they get shouted down yeah and lumped in with all the moron guys yeah who are like why why can't i be incredibly offensive and mean to people i'm just exercising my right to free speech but also

some there's some element of that there's never been a time in this country where our speech is less policed. You know, there are so many platforms. You can broadcast your opinions in a way that you couldn't even 10, 15 years ago. You know, Twitter was basically someone yelling on a street corner. You know, that was all you're able to do. do and i think there's a lot of people who kind of say talk about the free speech brigade and no one's really calling for things to be banned all that happens is someone says something and people go i don't really agree with that i think that that's not cool that you said that and that is interpreted as an attack on free speech yeah but i mean people feel people feel harshly judged sure that and you you feel stung right i'm trying to see this from from their point of view and i'm trying to get into the minds of those people because it's like i you know we've all been at a point where you are told off or judged yeah yeah it's not a nice feeling no absolutely it's annoying yeah you, especially if they have a good point. Yeah.

I'm going to have to change my behavior. Yeah. Or in some more extreme case, I'm going to have to apologize. This is annoying. But here, look, I saw this thing and I thought this was quite a good summation of something. I was interested to hear your take on it. You know, the Steve Bannon at the New York Festival ideas? Yeah, yeah yeah yeah right okay

so for those of you who missed this over the summer or earlier in the year this was a so-called festival of ideas organized by the new yorker magazine and they were going to have various speakers to discuss all sorts of things yeah and it was sort of people from across the spectrum of politics and culture and media as well yeah quite a lot of comedians and stuff and one of the guests that they got was steve bannon former executive chairman of breitbart news the right wing uh news website white house chief strategist lest we forget, and, you know, hero of, I would say, at least some white supremacists. Yeah. And also author of a hip-hop musical based on Titus Andronicus, I believe.

I didn't know that. Steve Bannon has a fascinating career. Like, it's a game with a lot of... Did he get there before Hamilton? Yeah, but I suspect it had a very different angle. He was less uplifting. He was less uplifting. It was less uplifting. Like, the problem with a lot of these people is you kind of look at it and you go,

fucking hell, you just want to be an entertainer. Yeah. Anyway. Everybody wants to be liked on some level. Yeah, I know. Steve Bannon wants to be liked. Yeah. Anyway, he was going to be interviewed at this festival of ideas by the editor of the New Yorker, David Remnick.

But there was such an uproar when people saw that i mean he was like the headliner guest yeah and i suppose from the new yorker's point of view headliner because they sort of imagined people would go whoa what's this gonna be like because david remnick the editor of the new yorker was a very outspoken and harsh critic of bannon's yeah Yeah, absolutely. And you would hope that he would have given him a good grilling. Yeah, sure. And two extremely strong personalities, intelligent men, you would hope, going at it. But there was such an outcry that he,

David Remnick, capitulated and he cancelled Steve Bannon. And then I saw this tweet. I don't know if you saw this from Malcolm Gladwell. No. So Malcolm Gladwell, fun writer, podcaster, I would say, broadly speaking, a progressive person. And he tweeted in the wake of Steve Bannon being removed from this bill. Her call me old fashioned, but I would have thought that the point of a festival of ideas was to expose the audience to ideas. If you only invite your friends over, it's called a dinner party.

And then he followed that up with another tweet that said Joe McCarthy was done in when he was confronted by someone with intelligence and guts before a live audience. Sometimes a platform is actually a gallows. form is actually a gallows and so many people who agreed with malcolm gladwell said you know yeah yeah this was a silly move that made david remnick look weak and made the left in general look as if they were scared of engaging and i saw another tweet from an american filmmaker jennifer bray she and she was saying to sort of Gladwell and people that agreed with him, guys, the First Amendment enshrines the right of individuals to speech and assembly free of government interference. It does not protect hideous ideas from private boycott or censure or decent people from shunning those who hold them. Sure. So she was essentially saying, you know, democracy's working.

This is what's supposed to happen. This is not a threat to free speech. Yeah. Which a lot of people were framing it as. Another tweet responding to that one from Mike. I'm confused. If you aren't exposed to abhorrent speech, how can you combat it? Is the left arguing we just shouldn't see it at all?

Yeah. So that was a point of view that was expressed by a lot of people. And the response to that from someone else on the other side, Amanda. So she's responding to Mike saying, is the left arguing we shouldn't see it at all? Amanda says, yes, because to reasonable, humane, intelligent people, those, quote, ideas have less meaning and legitimacy than the fucking tooth fairy. Decent people don't have to debate things that have zero merit. You dumb fuck. She says to this guy. So I was reading that instead of thinking, all right, Mike is then going to be just like, you know,

I think he would have been within his rights to feel totally stung and bent out of shape by just being totally dismissed in that way. Do you know what I mean? I think that's a problem with conducting discourse on social media. Yeah, indeed. And that's why I still feel so conflicted about it, because social media gives an outlet to marginalised voices that otherwise wouldn't exist. And, you know, whenever people talk about social media, this, that and the other, you're like, well, it also has facilitated something like the Black Lives Matter movement, the Me Too movement, largely oxygenated by the fact that women were able to share their stories in a communal space. The problem is that by nature of the 140, 280 character limit, it can sometimes turn two pretty, I think, interesting perspectives into just a dismissal of fuck you.

Because I have a lot of sympathy. I understand that I think, you know, this idea like we should be able to debate everything we should. But at the same time, I'm still not sure why we're entertaining the idea that white supremacy is an idea to be debated it's not a difference of opinion it's not um i can't believe i'm about to take on malcolm gladwell this is obviously not a fair fight but i think sometimes somebody like malcolm gladwell views the world like it's a West Wing episode and the West Wing has this idealized view of discourse and I adore the West Wing but the West Wing has this kind of idealized view of discourse where the American government and all government is

essentially a struggle between two divergent perspectives but that exist with a kind of basic respect for each other and a basic respect for certain values instinctively i'm always against no platforming but having seen the way that trump and brexit have happened largely by this kind of idealized version of debate that you just have two sides kind of talking things through and going at it i mean donald trump was humiliated at the debates. He was humiliated and it didn't matter. All that mattered was the fact that he was receiving blanket coverage on CNN.

Everything you've just said and the way you've said it is what I think so many people wish political discourse was like. Sure. And when you talk about the West Wing and these sort of airy fairy nuanced you didn't use the phrase airy fairy but these sort of reasonable nuanced discussions i think we can still hope that things might head back towards that yeah i think so i just my problem is with the you dumb fuck yes yeah um yes style of political discourse yes you know what i mean because i really do think that that has an effect on the other side yeah absolutely and i and i think that like i say again i i have such mixed feelings

about social media because i i feel like i have benefited so much from, especially like, for example, the trans community. And I feel very embarrassed about this, but I just had sort of no real awareness. You know, you sort of like, you know, you always knew that there was a T in LGBT. There was, you know, when we were at university, it was the LGBT society. But you never really thought about it or thought about the experience of trans people and i feel so like lucky to have been educated so much by following really interesting people on social media and trans people who talk about their experiences and it's so fascinating because of the nature of the discourse is so intimate because it is literally one person typing and you read it

and that's your insight into their mind in that way i think it can really help build empathy but the flip side of it is the thing that gets squashed out of and i i think specifically in something like this where you've got two people going head to head on a subject the thing that kind of gets squashed out of it is the nuance like and it's the detail and it's and that is what kind of gets sort of compressed out of it. And that is the problem with conducting a political argument on social media. My wife's take on it was, Twitter's a waste of time, isn't it? I said, how do you mean? She said, I mean, you don't need it.

I was like, no, but I mean, I agree with you. It is far from ideal. But people like it. It does serve a purpose. She's like, yeah, but you don't need it. And we dug a little deeper. And basically, it turned out that she doesn't see the point of the internet. Which, that's very funny.

I really like that as a perspective. Not seeing the point of the internet, I actually do really like. Because actually, you know, she's not wrong. That's the thing. She's not wrong at all. We were fine before, weren't we? It would be so hard.

If somebody just said, you don't need Twitter, you'd go, yeah, but this, this, this, this. They'd go, yeah, but you don't need it. There's no counter argument for that. There's no reasonable position to go, yeah, but there's this, this, this. They go, yeah, but you don't need it. There's no counter argument for that. There's no reasonable position to go, I require it. Yeah. Other than the point that you make, which is a reasonable one, that one would hope that it might promote understanding. Sure.

And allow you to see the world from other perspectives that you might not otherwise. Yeah, yeah. I just bumped into you at the supermarket. I was backing out of a parking space and I hit your car. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to. But you're angry now. Very angry now.

And that's making me very angry too. No, fuck you and your mother too One of the other things I gleaned from paying to read the Times interview with you was that, is this true you have original pressings of some Bob Dylan albums? I have original pressings from New Zealand, because I did the New Zealand Comedy Festival in 2015 and 16. Yeah. And the hotel that the festival puts you up in is next to a record shop called Real Groovy Records, which is absolutely amazing and just full of...

What town is that? Auckland. In Auckland. Yeah. It's just full of kind of rarities and all sorts of stuff. Yeah, it's just full of kind of rarities and all sorts of stuff. And I got blood on the tracks and bring it all back home because I. A couple of delicious peaches.

A couple of absolutely sweet meatballs. I, yeah, I mean, when I was growing up, I mean, he's my absolute hero. Oh, yeah. I absolutely adore Dylan and Jimi Hendrix. Right. When I was about 15, 16. That kind of getting into those guys is what pushed me to look at, to get into things like Bowie and the Beatles. Have you ever seen Dylan live? I saw it.

It's the first gig I ever went to see. No. Yeah, 2002, when he was touring Love and Theft, I went to see Dylan at the London Arena, which no longer exists. It was in the Docklands. And it was just unbelievable. My gig history is pretty impressive

because I saw Dylan, James Brown and Bowie within the space of about two years, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And were they all good? Yeah, they were all great. I was concerned for James Brown. Yeah.

Because he kept on, I mean, this is stuff that I ended up telling the stories part of his stand-up routine, but he kept having to go to the side of the stage to take oxygen. He was like, he was still bringing it. Like, he was still doing all the moves, but he was the only one that i felt worried for it was interesting watching him and dylan because he but i mean i saw the stones at glastonbury as well and it's really interesting because i the stones were brilliant but i really

what was fascinating about dylan and bowie actually were they were two people who seemed to have been able to grow into their age they They weren't doing versions of things that they did when they were younger, which I thought was absolutely fascinating. Because the Stones, and what is absolutely impressive, particularly about Mick Jagger, is that Mick Jagger still kind of looks like Mick Jagger in 1965. They're all still quite skinny, aren't they? Mick Jagger is in objectively better shape than I am,

and I am half his age. Yeah. Like, it was, you know, Keith is Keith. I don't know, they, like, they've propped him up on something, but the guy is, he kind of radiates charisma. Yes, he's a gnarled tree. Yeah, he's a gnarled tree, man. But he just, he's so, there's something so compelling

about watching him on stage. But what was fascinating about Dylan and Bowie was that they both, they had this kind of dignity to them in a way. It was a kind of interesting thing. And I mean, the great regret of my life is that I couldn't see Nina Simone on her last tour because I adore her. And she did the Albert Hall probably about six months before she died, maybe. I might have compressed that time slightly, but it was certainly her last tour. And I couldn't go because I think I had an A-level exam or something.

Oh, right, but you were into her. Oh, I was desperate to see her. I absolutely adore her. You've seen that doc, I presume. Yeah. What happened, Mr. Moe? Where is my friend David Bowie? Yeah.

I love that. I absolutely love that. I think she's incredible. And yeah, I mean, seeing her. But I told my friend about it. I talked about it quite extensively when I did my friend Gabriel Abulu's podcast. He does a great podcast called The Three Track Podcast, where you just pick three songs and you have to talk about them

and why they're significant to you. And I went through my gig list and, I mean, he was furious at who I'd seen. And when I said I didn't see Nita Simone, he was like, it's very hard for me to feel sorry for you, given that you've... You know, I saw Radiohead do this weird weird tour i don't even know why they were touring it was in 2006 and it was after hail to the thief uh-huh but a bit after hail to the thief oh yeah it would have been two years before in rainbows or maybe a year or two was it the one with the sort of weird shattered mirror things yeah, yeah. But they kind of just played...

Hits. Hits. Yeah, I think I saw that one, yeah. I mean, they played Creep. Yeah, yeah. You know, it was mind-blowing. It was so fucking cool. And so, you know, but I didn't see Needless to Mind,

so you should all feel very sorry for me. And Dylan was... Like, you could recognise the songs he was singing, could you? God, no. God, no. But that was part of the, I don't know. I really love him. And I really buy into all of it.

And I think that there is something, he is very aware of the myth of bob dylan yeah and he strikes me as someone who knows exactly what he's doing and so this to me just feeds into the myth of him as this kind of restless and also he's what he always wanted to be which is a kind of old blues singer and so he is messing around with arrangements and you know those kind of the sort of old blues and folk tradition was, you know, you just get up and do it. And it's not going to be the same as last night. And so he's just living what he wanted to do when he was 21 years old. He's become the man he always wanted to be. You went knowing that that's what you were going to do?

I had heard horror stories, you know, like that he's, but he was he was i mean he's so captivating and i love the fact that he was twisting songs and you kind of halfway through go this is visions of johanna yeah but also he recorded the album that he was touring love and theft with the touring band and so there was when he played those songs it was one of those things where when he played the new stuff there was a real verve and energy to it and that was exciting and then the last song which really was the kind of pinnacle of everything was they did all along the watchtower he had two guitar players and he played electric guitar the three of them played electric guitar and completely in the hendrix arrangement and i mean there was no doubt from the first second that we were getting all along the

watchtower. Oh, and it was absolutely incredible. And it was just, feed the world. Yeah. Yeah. That was Christmas.

There's no need to be afraid. There's no need to be afraid. It's Christmas time. It's not even that really anymore it's this kind of weird thing where he does this like octave jump so it's like him as a tambourine man play a song for me like he's he doesn't even sound like that's a good he doesn't even quite sound like he sounds when we think of a bob dillard yeah voice it's this kind of whole new weird thing and but i just love him he doesn't seem to give a fuck it's fun when artists do that markey smith went through those transitions as well right yeah yeah and there was a certain point where he started kind of growling

oh i haven't heard that before and then he carried on doing that uh pretty much up until his death i think it was funny when you go and see someone you want to see you want to see them be their authentic selves yeah i went to see janelle at the roundhouse about three weeks ago and it was it's just when you go with certain expectations and they are met in every way possible did she put on a good show oh my god he just has that weird thing of because she has this kind of this sort of afrofuturism aesthetic yeah so there's all these kind of little videos playing in the background but she also has this sort of showmanship because i mean she was a protege of

prince for a time and they they did a little bit of purple rain which i did did make me cry oh i've seen i saw prince as well did you yeah i saw him when he did the residency at the O2. I mean, that was, fuck, that was a gig. Like, that was unbelievable. I think he's the most talented person I have ever seen in my entire life because his piano playing was incredible. His voice was incredible. His singing is amazing.

But his guitar playing was just on a different planet and the idea that he can play like that and dance like that is just it was almost too much but um janelle monae has i think the thing that he has which is this kind of i'm sure it's not framed like this in their minds but they really are committed to giving you value for money i really feel that there's something in their shows you know prince did three hours or whatever the hell it was and janelle manet she was on stage for two hours and she just never stopped like she was always dancing she's in the crowd her voice sounds incredible you know there's films going on this she was you know talking about pride and right and you know she's servicing

bicycles she's servicing bicycles she's manning the merch stand she's writing a short play it was really interesting to see somebody do something that seemed so visually experimental and kind of avant-garde and sort of technically audacious, but also really try. It was so cool, and yet there was nothing cool about her because there's nothing less cool than somebody just trying. Is that real melody? Heavy's in my phone charger? I left it right there. Did you see it?

Have you got it? Where's my charger gone? Where's my phone charger? The battery's about to die. It was on the table Round and round in their heads Go the chord progressions The empty lyrics

And the impoverished fragments of tune And boom goes the brain box At the start of every bar At the start of every bar Boom goes the brain box At the start of every bar. At the start of every bar. Boom goes the brain box. You're a Bowie fan, right? Oh, man. Are you a big one i love bowie okay so do you like the bad ones i mean bad in inverted commas i mean because this is the thing is that if you're a hardcore bowie fan you're in for thick and thin well you're in for thick and tin right yeah hacking through the tin machine yeah yeah that's a very tricky area did you get

any joy out of that i get very little joy out of it i'll tell you what i have come back round on was that i never particularly cared for serious moonlight right. The, the big commercial hits. What's the, which album is it? It's Let's Dance. Let's Dance. So I never really cared for that period of Bowie. No, neither did I,

but now I've, I've come around because I think because at that point I had no appreciation for that kind of music for, for what Nile Rodgers did, for example, or that is exactly it. That's exactly how I feel about it. I feel like when I was really getting into Bowie, it was all about Ziggy, Aladdin Sane.

I was even a bit on the fence about Young Americans, but then Station to Station, absolutely incredible. The Berlin Trilogy, this is like, you know, it's the kind of avant-garde, hanging out with the Velvet Underground and Brian Eno. Exactly. You know, Bowie, you know, it's the kind of avant-garde, hanging out with the Velvet Underground and Brian Eno. Exactly. And, you know, Bowie, you know, is this kind of chameleon. And then I always struggled to get on board with him as a pop star in the 80s.

Yeah. And especially because... So did he. I mean, that was famously... Yeah. He was lost for ages after. Well, because Tim Machine is kind of him burning that down, in a sense. Like, in the kind of late 80s trying to just start again really clumsy in a really clumsy way that was the thing that was fascinating about him i think is

that the struggle often seemed to be between him as this guy this art guy who knew exactly what he wanted and was totally uncompromising and unafraid to take chances and blah blah blah and let's use some oblique strategy cards and let's hang out with the velvet underground yeah yeah all that sort of stuff listen to weird music and then him just sitting there and thinking oh why aren't i more famous yeah yeah maybe i'm shit yeah maybe i'm just no good and if i was really good then i'd sell loads of albums and also it couldn't have it must have been difficult because he got fleeced by his manager yeah of course yeah yeah and so he had nothing to show for it financially yeah and maybe that was part of the reason i completely

understand loads of drugs but he seemed to constantly ping pong between being this beautiful aloof artist's artist yeah and then just being just being Mr. Crazy Bouffant, like... Yeah. But that's what I like about him, is that even when he was the artist's artist, he still has a kind of ear for a pop song. Yeah. And he was able to take what the Velvet Underground were doing

and then in the late 70s, what Kraftwerk were doing and what the kind of German electronic scene was doing and make that into a song like sound and vision and kind of taking from the avant-garde, but sort of making it comprehensible for the mainstream. Like that's what I think his, I think that's something he has in common with Radiohead in that they are able to take these kind of wild fringe elements and kind of bring them to a larger

audience. But with the serious moonlight, it just feels like he's kind of, he's just hopping straight into the middle of it. That's what I felt for a long time when I was younger. He was just hopping straight into the middle of the road. But I think it's only as you get older that you kind of go, you cannot deny Nile Rodgers. Like Nile Rodgers is like an absolute genius.

There was a five years documentary, which I think is brilliant. There's two. And the first one, one of the five years was Let's Dance. And when I was watching it, I remember thinking, are you joking? Really?

We're doing, you're giving Let's Dance the same status as Ziggy. Oh, this is infuriating. And then Niall Rogers is just sat there. And I've seen him do this in like YouTube clips and stuff. It seems like a routine that he has. Like Niallgers seems like he gives good value on a talk show but he

he's just playing his stratocaster and he explains the chord sequence the hit maker but he explains how he built the chords for let's dance and how bowie wanted it to be this folk thing and he breaks it into a funk and he's like i'm niall rogers you know i'm the king of disco i can't make a song called let's dance that you cannot dance to and there's something in like showing that that you kind of go oh my god i cannot believe that i was dismissing the skill of nile rogers like it's yeah it's so it is it is a beautiful sounding thing and that's all all the instrumentation everything as far as i can tell musically is is nile rogers on there but even he talks about um the fact that he was all excited

to work with bowie this sort of avant-garde yeah yeah artist and then bowie just says listen i really just want a big hit yeah if you could do me like a big big big hit that would be great whatever it takes and that must have been so i don't know i'm sure he got past it but but you i really do pick up when he's doing interviews about that that he must have been a little bit crushed i think yeah because you do you just feel like oh okay well know, use me a little bit more. Why not? But that's kind of what Bowie was like. He was brilliant at thinking, okay, this is what I need. And these are my skills.

And you do that for me. And I'll give you the best of me kind of thing. And if you're going to get all upset about it, then, you know, I can't help you kind of thing. And for most people, they were like, yeah, fine. Okay, if that's the deal. So you brought your guitar with you today. I did. I'm happy about that. And I once saw you, I can't remember if I paid to read this article or not,

but you were talking about the fact that you never wanted to be one of those people who gets the guitar out. Yeah, I hate that. I really hate that. I like that. Do you know any David Bowie? I know a couple of David Bowie. Oh, which ones?

Well, I think Rock and Roll Suicide is probably the one that I know. Will you play one and I'll sing along? Yeah, sure. Let me see. I'll get the chords of mine. It's funny now because if people don't hear it, they'll know it was real dog shit. Yeah.

Well, do you know early Bowie? Like, She's Got Medals? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I used to play that. Oh, really? Yeah. I tell you what I really love is the Bowie at the Beeb album. Oh, yeah.

Because that has a real... Is that the one with John Peel? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And they play Round and Round by that the one with John Peel? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And they play Round and Round by Chuck Berry. Yeah, and there's so much... And John Peel goes, Oh, that was very good.

That was really good. He's all flustered, you know? Yeah. Because it's so terrific. I can't really sing. I mean, no one's putting too many expectations on me. It's like later with Jules. Over in this corner of the room,

we have Jimmy Oldman, the blues legend. He's here. He's about to die in a month. He'll be joining me for an awkward chat about the piano later on. But right now, we're very lucky indeed to have a talented young man. You may have seen him on Taskmaster. He's a fan of David Bowie. Bowie.

He's going to play a classic from the Ziggy Stardust album Ladies and gentlemen It's Anish Kumar Time takes a cigarette Puts it in your mouth You pull on your finger Then finger

Then cigarette The wall to wall is calling It lingers Then you forget Oh, oh, oh, oh calling, it lingers then you forget oh oh you're a rock and roll suicide you're too old

to lose it too young to choose it and the clock waits so patiently on your song You walk past a cafe but you don't eat when you've lived too long Oh no, no, no, you're a rock and roll suicide

Shed breaks are snarling As you stumble across the road But the day breaks instead So you hurry home Don't let the sun blast your shadow Don't let the milk flow right on mine They're so natural, religiously unkind. Oh no, love, you're not allowed. Right, that's enough.

This is an advert for Squarespace. Every time I visit your website I see success, yes success. The way that you look at the world makes the world want to say yes. It looks very professional. I love browsing your videos and pics and I don't want to stop. And I'd like to access your members area and spend in your shop. These are the kinds of comments people will say about your website if you build it with Squarespace. Just visit squarespace.com slash Buxton for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, because you will want to launch, use the offer code BUXTON to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

So put the smile of success on your face with Squarespace. Yes. Yes. Wait. Continue. Yeah. Rosie. Rosie. Where are you?

Come on, let's head back. I've got my head torch on and I am scanning the field. Ah ha ha. I can see the little glowy eyes. Rosie, come on. We're going to head back. I can see the little eyes. Two little eyes like torches over in the field ahead. Yeah, there you go. Boing, boing, now they're bouncing.

Don't go over there. It's like a little weird droid. Yeah, how are you doing? It's too cold, sweetie. We've got to head back. Come on. Come on, Rosie. So that was Nish Kumar and myself murdering David Bow David Bowie well I think Nish was being kind to

David Bowie I was um giving David Bowie a little bit of a musical kicking there for which I apologize but really nice to talk to Nish and hang out with him and and his magnificent bellowing laugh hope he'll come back again one day. Now, before I forget, I had better cancel that subscription to the Times. I'm sure there's a lot of good stuff in there, but it's not over all the paper for me, I don't think, so I don't want to keep paying for it every month. I'm just going to call the subscription team. This won't take a second. Neh, neh, ne. Ne, ne. Alright.

Hello, you're through to the time subscription team. My name is Dandrew. I'm typing this call for sexy purposes. And now I want to help you. Can I start by making a fart sound and then you say your name? Adam Buxton. Hello, Mr. Buxton. I'm feeling great and I want to make you happy. So can you tell me how I can do that today?

Yes, I have a digital subscription to the Times and I'd like to cancel it before it renews, please. Oh, no, are you joking? I can see here you just took it out a few weeks ago and now you're cancelling it already. What the hell happened? Well, I only took out the subscription so that I could read an interview with Nish Kumar one weekend. Oh. Why didn't you just go to the shop and buy a paper? Can I please ask it? Because it was late at night, and I just wasn't near any shops at that point.

We live in the country, and I just wanted to read it at that moment. But look, can I just cancel the subscription, please? Can I do that? Oh God, yeah, that's fine. I just think it's a bit weird, that's all. And it's so sad as well. There's so many great articles and amazing journalism in the Times. I'm sure there's going to be a lot more stuff about Nish Kumar as well. Why don't you just see how it goes for a while instead of just freaking out and cancelling the whole thing? Because in all likelihood, I'm not going to use this subscription again and then I'll just be paying for something I don't need. Oh, I'm just so sad about this. Can I ask, where are you getting your news from, Mr Buxton? Oh God, I don't know. I mean, you know, here and there. I just read a lot of stuff on my computer, I suppose. Oh, really?

That is so interesting to me because did you know there is another subscription package that I have a sexy feeling might be quite great for you, Mr. Buxton. It is only £8.99 a month, not even £9. And for that, you get massive digital access to all the so great journalism of the Times and also the Sunday Times. Do you think this is great, what great what i said yeah i think that's literally the package that i already have that i would still like to cancel now please if possible okay it's fine mr buxton but can i just ask you one more thing are you happy in your life yep more or less but look can i just cancel that subscription please oh i just think the times and and the Sunday times could really make you so happy, Mr. Buxton. Okay, then. Is it cancelled now? I'm going to cancel it, but before I do, can I just ask... Give me that phone. Hold it down to my mouth.

All right, Rosie. Here we go. Look, just cancel that subscription now. Thanks. Bye. Okay. There you go. Let's go home. Wow. Thanks, Rosie. I think that's pretty much it for this week. It was a long one. As I say, the next podcast will be with Joe. Another pretty long one, I think. We recorded it a couple of days ago. It was good fun. Great to see Joe again. He was on good form. His film, The Kid Who Would Be King, is all finished. I still haven't seen it yet, but it comes out early next year, mid-February, I think. And we talked a little bit about that,

as well as lots of other stuff. Movie recommendations. We read some of your messages that you kindly sent in. Thank you very much to everybody who responded to the call-out for contributions. Thank you very much indeed to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his production support on this episode and to Annika Meissen for additional editing.

Thanks, Annika. Thanks, Seamus. Music and jingles, as ever, by A. Buckleton. The I Just Bumped Into You jingle. I just bumped into you. I was backing out of a parking space. That one. That features bass playing by Dan Hawkins, the online bass player. I've never met Dan Hawkins, IRL, but I just sent off my track to him and he sent me back a variety of bass lines and I picked my favorite and I've used Dan's services a number of times and I've put a link to his website in the description of this podcast if you ever fancy availing yourself of his gigantic bass skills. Thanks a lot Dan. I also used plug-ins,

natural-sounding instrument plug-ins, really effective ones, from Sonic Couture, and I have also put a link to their website in the description of this podcast. All right. My fingers are falling off. But I'm home now.

Look, there's the welcoming warm lights of Castle Buc-ee-lees. Well, until we're next together on Christmas morning, take very good care, listeners. I love you. Bye! Bye! Thank you. Please like and subscribe Please like and subscribe Give me a little smile and a thumbs up Nice like a pun for me, thumbs up Give me a little smile and a thumbs up

Nice like a pun for me, thumbs up Please like and subscribe Please like and subscribe Please like and subscribe Please like and subscribe Give me a little smile and a thumbs up Nice like a pun for me, thumbs up Give me a little smile and a thumbs up ស្រូវាប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ Thank you. you