THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.93 - CHARLOTTE GAINSBOURG

Episode Date: May 18, 2019

Adam talks with French-British actor and singer Charlotte Gainsbourg about pretentious hotels, overcoming her diffidence as a singer, Kanye West and separating the art from the artist, and her collaborations with Beck and film director Lars Von Trier, plus other important business.The conversation was recorded in London in December 2018.Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production support and to Matt Lamont for additional editing.RELATED LINKSCHARLOTTE GAINSBOURG - 'REST' (MUSIC VIDEO)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRwgL_PrQYQCHARLOTTE GAINSBOURG - 'REST' (ALBUM ON SPOTIFY)https://open.spotify.com/album/5nalJu58LJj7AMMyHwtbLX?autoplay=true&v=LCHARLOTTE GAINSBOURG & BECK - 'HEAVEN CAN WAIT' (MUSIC VIDEO)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrWN0-MuK38'CHARLOTTE GAINSBOURG CONFRONTS FAMILY GHOSTS AND SEXUAL POLITICS ON SOUL SISTERS'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9Eyg4L42nc&t=1406sSERGE & CHARLOTTE GAINSBOURG - 'LEMON INCEST' (YOUTUBE)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE06lqT0Y2gJANE BIRKIN & SERGE GAINSBOURG - 'JE T'AIME,…MOI NON PLUS' (YOUTUBE)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Fa4lOQfbASERGE GAINSBOURG - 'HISTOIRE DE MELODY NELSON' (YOUTUBE)https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5JF5i-v4BuR1BFcrlczn7qB06WTYOMN9THE ADAM BUXTON APPhttps://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/the-adam-buxton-app/id1264624915?mt=8 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human folk Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man I want you to enjoy this. That's the plan. Hey, how you doing, listeners?

Adam Buxton here. Rosie. Rosie, that's not a good idea. Rosie, Rosie. There's a cow. In the drive. Rosie, Rosie. There's a cow in the drive. Rosie, Rosie, don't antagonize the cow. The cow is much, much bigger than you are. Yeah, that's wise. Rosie is now hiding behind me. The cow's got out of the field, which happens quite a lot, and is now stood on the drive behind our house.

Okay, Rosie, here's what you should do. What? Fly over there and incinerate all those cows in a horrific and totally unjustifiable way. Oh, right. Is this a Game of Thrones reference? Yes. Dog Aris! Right, well, I'm going to just go gambling. You deal with the cows. Have a good gamble. Come on. Let's just walk past the cow. Don't antagonize the cow. Rosie.

Hello, cow. We mean no harm. We're just doing a podcast intro. Wow, that was quite scary. I'm going to have to call a farmer. Dogaris! Nothing. OK, let me tell you about podcast number 93,

which features a rambly conversation with the French-British actor and singer Charlotte Gainsbourg. By the way, if you'd rather head straight to the conversation, just skip forward around six minutes. For those of you remaining, I won't call you remainers, I met Charlotte, currently aged 47, in December of last year, 2018, when she was in London playing some shows in support of her excellent fifth album, Rest. And in a secluded corner of a bar in the hotel where she was staying,

we talked about Charlotte's ongoing struggle to be confident as a singer, her musical collaboration with Beck on her 2010 album, IRM, and her enthusiasm for the music of Kanye West, which brought us onto the whole fun topic of separating the art from the artist. And during that bit of conversation, Charlotte mentioned the fashion magazine boycott of photographer Terry Richardson, who I didn't realise at the time is currently facing multiple allegations of sexual assault. We also talked a bit about Charlotte's film work, which is probably what takes up most of her time. She's appeared in over 50 films since she made her acting debut aged just 13 in 1984, but we focused on her work with Lars von Trier, who directed Charlotte in the three

films that make up his Depression trilogy, so-called because it features characters dealing with depression in various ways. In 2009's Antichrist, a grieving couple played by Charlotte and Willem Dafoe retreat to a cabin in the woods where things go horrific and nutty. Willem Dafoe's nutties especially come in for some very harsh punishment. Although Charlotte's bits by no means escape unscathed, during its premiere in Cannes, there were several walkouts and at least four faintings. In 2011's Melancholia, Charlotte and Kirsten Dunst play two sisters,

one of whom is preparing to marry just before a rogue planet collides with Earth. And in Nymphomaniac, released in 2013, Charlotte plays a woman experiencing a sexual awakening, and the film features several extremely explicit scenes, some of which feature Shia LaBeouf closely scrutinising Charlotte's Netherlands. But Charlotte has never shied away from work that some people find shocking, as you might expect given that she is the daughter of English actor Jane Birkin and Serge Gainsbourg, one of the most celebrated yet controversial figures in French popular music and indeed in good popular music.

That's just a joke. French music is good. Among Serge Gainsbourg's many influential recordings is 1971's Histoire de Melody Nelson, which has left a clear imprint on the work of artists like David Holmes and Jarvis Cocker, as well as the French band Air, and indeed Beck. In the early 80s, when Charlotte was just nine, her parents' turbulent relationship ended and her father spent his last decade behaving in ways that left many shocked and scandalized, especially by numerous drunken TV appearances, in which he seemed to delight in saying whatever would cause

the most outrage. But outrage and provocation, albeit underpinned by jokes and wordplay that was lost on non-French speakers, was always one aspect of Serge Gainsbourg's work. I talked to Charlotte about 1969's Je T'aime Moi Non Plus, originally written for Gainsbourg's girlfriend Brigitte Bardot, though the final release, which features explicit lyrics and simulated sounds of female orgasm, was a duet between Gainsbourg and Jane Birkin before their relationship started in earnest. And Charlotte made her own musical debut

on another controversial duet with her father in 1984 on the track Lemon Incest, a song that she still includes in her set, though the song's lyrics originally led some people to suspect the close relationship between Charlotte and her unconventional father was inappropriate or even abusive, though Charlotte has repeatedly stated that was never remotely the case. An album of songs featuring Charlotte and Serge, entitled Charlotte Forever,

was released in 1986, just five years before her father died of a heart attack. But I started my conversation with Charlotte by talking about the hotel where she was staying, which seemed to me to be part snooty nightclub, part farty art gallery, and part Zoolander convention. I'll be first on this, then concentrate on that. Come on, let's tune the fat and have a Ramble Chat. Put on your conversation coat and find your talking hat. Is this a hotel you've stayed at before? Just once. Is this the kind of hotel that you favor?

No. I would describe this hotel no disrespect. Yes. To you anyone staying here or anyone involved with this hotel as swanky with a silent s. They described my shower it said if you go in the shower and you press that button there's a screen that lightens up and if the other person on the other side in the other suite wants to see you, he or she just presses the button and then the screen reveals. Wow! I didn't use it.

That's, I mean, that's useful, though. I'm always in hotels thinking, if only there was some kind of screen that would reveal the person behind it when I press the button. Well, they thought about it. And there's kind of crazy art everywhere. It's all very dark. Yes.

There's a lot of places like this in Los Angeles, and I think now they're all over the place. Sort of boutique hotels. Yeah, yeah. Boutique hotels with a i would say aggressively chic yes yes exactly uh no but when i come to london i never know where to go i used to stay at my grandmother's house in old church street and that was it and that's the only part of london i i'm ashamed to say but that's the only part of London that I really knew, that and Kensington.

And now I go from one hotel to another, not really, it's not the same thing. Do you still like hotels? I love hotels. Yeah. But I've become very picky, so I have a few hotels that I love. But when you're touring, it's always sort of a surprise where you'll end up yeah sure and on the tour bus is where I'm usually sleeping plus you're the one that's got to pick up the tab at the end of the day right exactly it's not like oh the record company are so generous

this nice hotel am I right in thinking you've got you've got a lot of British connections in your family? I do. Half my family is English. My mother's completely English. Where was she born? In London. And I was born in London. My elder sister was born in London.

So usually it was really completely centred around London. Yeah. And when you're travelling around, I mean, your English is very good, so you were speaking English from an early age, presumably, were you? No, but I heard English spoken around me, but then I was very lazy, and I guess I wanted to have a French personality, and I had a very strong French accent until I was maybe 18. And then my uncle, Andrew Birkin, asked me if I wanted to be in his film, but the condition was to have a perfect British accent.

So I needed to study with a voice coach and practice. That was for The Cement Garden? Yeah. And do you remember what the key tricks were to sounding British? No, but the sound was, everything was very familiar. So it wasn't like learning a foreign language or pronouncing it in a very different way. It all seemed quite natural. But I do remember having a cork in my mouth and having to pronounce things with a cork and all sorts of exercises a cork in your mouth what

does that do makes you sort of go more like that exactly that's what British people are like yes that was needed how would one perfect a French accent then? What would be the trick there? Yeah, exactly. A lot of... That kind of thing. You think in French, though, presumably, do you? It's weird because I've been living in New York for four years now. And it's still tricky to be fluent in English I mean to really be able to say what I

have in my mind but at the same time I do think in in English now when I'm supposed to speak in English I don't know if I dream in English maybe not French is my true language it's even though it's not my mother's language, but she was learning French when she got to Paris. And when I was born, she was still struggling with the French. So making an effort to sound as perfect as she could with a lot of mistakes, which was a lot of fun for us. But speaking English then would have meant that it was a sort of a secret language because my father didn't understand English. Ah, OK.

The English was only when we went to London and saw our English side of the family. And did he ever conduct conversations in English, your pa? Yes, later on. He said that he learnt English just by watching films with no subtitles. But then he spoke English, of course, with a French accent, but more in the American trend. He always made fun of the posh accent.

Aha. Is that real melody? Have you seen my phone charger? What? What? I left it right there. What? What?

Did you see it? What? Have you got it? What? What? Where's my charger gone? What? Where's my charger gone? Where's my phone charger?

The battery's about to die It was on the table Round and round in their heads Go the chord progressions The empty lyrics And the impoverished fragments of tune And boom goes the brain box at the start of every bar, at the start of every bar.

Boom goes the brain box. Last night you were playing at Coco, is that right? I was. Sorry, I didn't get to see you. I was doing a show in Brighton. Otherwise I would have been there. Did it go well? Yeah. I had a lot of technical problems.

I haven't done a show for a while, so it was very nerve-wracking and unpleasant for me, but I think the audience liked it. I think they like it when things go wrong. Yes, I think they do, when it's not too... Lease, how do you say? Slick. Yeah.

How was your show? Slick. No, it wasn't. No, it was good. It was good, but I'm always nervous when I know people in the audience. And yesterday I knew a few people. So I was only focused on on them and what they could think. And, and the night before it was L'Olympia in Paris, and it was the same thing. I knew my mother was there. So I was thinking about her the whole time. It is embarrassing when you know people, isn't it? Because it's like you wouldn't go round to a friend's house and get up and start singing, would you? Even if they asked, would you do that?

Have you ever been in that situation? Yes, of people saying, go on, sing, yes. And I haven't done it. Yeah, quite right. Never. It would be weird. Yeah, quite right. Never.

It would be weird. I mean, I'm too self-conscious to be able to do anything in front of people I know, in front of... Already it's been a big step for me to do live shows. Now it's a real pleasure, which was not the case. In the first two tours I did it was really hard it was a challenge so i i liked it in that sense being challenged challenged but now i'm really looking forward to shows that that i have to do so it's a big big change what were the things that made it difficult for you i had the impression that i needed to pretend that I was a singer, which I didn't believe I was, but I don't believe I'm an actor either.

It's just this weird thing of having done it all my life, and even so early, when I was 12, I didn't... Then I didn't question myself. When I was so young, it was nothing. It was just a little thing that I happened to do, and it was fun. But then when it became more serious and more a real job and a way of earning my life, then it became a little too serious for me to accept that I knew how to do it, that I was a professional. But now I'm just comfortable with the fact that I don't feel I'm a singer and I don't feel I'm an actor.

And that's for me, that's fine. So in the beginning, because I was Beck was very sweet. I did this album with him and he. This is a IRM. Yeah. In 2010. And then I did Coachella right from the start, and massive people, and it was quite overwhelming, but at the same time, very exciting. It's just that I had no self-confidence, nothing.

And then the second tour was a little easier. It was with Conor Moccasin. Oh, yeah, he's great. He's so sweet, and it was with conan moccasin oh yeah he's great he's so sweet and and it was with his band and so it was much easier and much more friendly in a way it was he's always pretending himself that he doesn't know anything and doesn't so it was i was finding someone that i really could relate to but this time it's my band which makes a big difference because we grew all together i mean one by one but i was i was there with sebastian who did the music and gradually the

producer the producer and then people came in and we formed a band and and so I felt more, my position was more legitimate this time. Yeah, yeah. And the album Rest came out almost a year ago now, didn't it? Yes, exactly a year ago, in November, yeah. Right. And that's the one you're touring at the moment? Yes, that's the one. Although presumably you're playing lots of other bits and pieces. I've, not a lot, but it's basically the whole album,

and I added a few songs of my father's, I mean, what my father wrote for me. Which ones of those are you doing? I'm doing Lemon Incest, which was my first song ever. Right. And then Charlotte Forever. But they're both duos with him so for a long time i thought i would never be able to revisit these songs and i only sang them once in a studio

it lasted i don't know 20 minutes and it was over so to be able to spend some time with them is a real surprise and it's very intimate because I can hear his voice in my mind. He's very present. So it's a special time for me, those songs. And then what else? I do a cover of Kanye West. Oh yeah, which one? Runaway.

OK. And I love doing that song. And then there's an EP coming out, so three of the songs that were supposed to be on the album rest were leftovers. I wanted the album to be short and it made sense to keep them out, but some of them I was very, very attached to so i'm happy to

finally have them come out how do you get around the problem that the duet problem then with those songs that you did with your pa at the beginning i was wondering if i i didn't want his voice but i i was wondering if i should be silent or if one of the guys from the band, if someone should speak his words. And finally, I just did both. Okay. And it's not that I'm trying to have a low voice and then a high-pitched voice, but it's natural, I hope. It seems very natural while I'm doing it. So I'm not questioning it anymore. Sort of obvious.

Yeah, yeah. And is there an element of sort of provocation when you're doing Lemon Incest particularly? Because that was that caused such a stir at the time. It did, but not really. For me, it's it's really going back to my first experience. And one of the songs that touches me the most, it's still very emotional, but because I was so innocent. It's a very innocent song.

Even with his words, he says the love that we'll never do together. He's very specific on the fact that, of course, he knows very well what he's doing by provoking and saying lemon incest, but he was very specific with me, very precise, and so I was never shocked. And when the song came out, I was in a boarding school, so I didn't even I was in a boarding school, so I didn't even know that it had been a problem, that it was sort of a scandal at the time. I was very well protected. And thank God I was, because then people did ask afterwards,

but it didn't matter at all. And I was never nervous about the subject or, you know, there was nothing awkward for me, never. But you understood. Did you ever talk to him later on about, because your dad must have known that he was obviously prodding at taboos. Oh, sure. And he was encouraging people's imaginations to just run riot. Sure, but that's what he did. He was a provocateur and that's the way he wanted to work. But I can understand this, of being extremely shy, extremely self-conscious,

and that was his way of dealing with people, the provocation, and he was very... I think you sort of need people like that. Did you think of him as shy and self-conscious? Oh, yeah. Oh, really? Very, very much. He was really...

He had a double personality. When you knew him at home, he was very subtle, very... You know, not at all show off and but the show off part was completely him too but i understood that very well and that's who he was and i was quite uh even though sometimes it was embarrassing the was embarrassing, but apart from that, he's the person I admire the most already as a child. Did you ever talk to him about the drinking and stuff like that? Oh, all the time.

I was like a policeman trying to take bottles away. No, it was a big struggle, but it was his struggle in the first place. Yeah, yeah. That's a hard job for a daughter. Yeah, yeah, it was. It was a big struggle, but it was his struggle in the first place. Yeah, yeah. That's a hard job for a daughter. Yeah, yeah, it was. It was. So back to the album, you've got some stellar contributions on there, Charlotte, from the likes. Well, you've got Manuel from Daft Punk.

Yes. Owen Pallett, you mentioned Conor Moccasin. Paul McCart Punk. Yes. Owen Pallett, mentioned Conor Moccasin. Paul McCartney. Yes. Did he write Songbird in a Cage? Or did he collaborate with you on that song? No, no, he wrote it. But I don't know where it came from because I never asked because I'm not friends with him.

Oh, OK, I was going to ask how he came to be involved. I met him in London, but it was nearly eight years ago now. Was that through Nigel Godrich? No, it was through my record company. Oh, OK. And at the end of the time we had, I did ask if he would consider working with me in any kind of way, but I didn't really know if he would respond to that and he did but I just

received the song and a demo of him I could recognize his voice so it was so surprising and I was very flattered and so happy to to have this it was like having a treasure. But then I didn't do anything with it because I wasn't already working on an album, so I waited for ages. And then when we recorded it with Sebastian and with his take on the song, because it was transformed a little bit, we sent it to Paul McCartney to see if he still liked it.

And he did, and he came and recorded some instruments with us. So it was a wonderful, wonderful experience, but I can't say more, because I was just so amazed that he would come and then, you know, I couldn't really... It was a bit like pretending that it was normal. Yeah, yeah. I was very eager to ask many, many questions.

What would you have asked him? Well, things about the song specifically, where it came from, where, you know, is it an old song that he found again, that he came across, or is it something he thought of once we saw each other you know precise things were you a beatles fan when you were growing up very much but i wish i had um been brought up with the specific albums because for me it was really when the blue and red album were released and the white so all that order of songs for me that's the order that's the the authentic order yeah not you know not the original

albums but yes i'm a big big fan and bob dylan presumably you liked i mean you were in todd haynes film about i was i'm not there is it called yeah yeah i. I mean, you were in Todd Haynes' film about Dylan. I was. I'm Not There, is it called? Yeah, I'm Not There. And you were playing a sort of... It's all versions of Dylan-like figures, right? Yes, exactly.

It's five, if I remember correctly, five visions of a Dylan persona. Yeah, and you were playing... And I play his wife. But the song I did, the cover of Dylan, that came later. I mean, the film was finished and Todd asked me if I would do a cover. Which one did you do? I did Just Like a Woman.

Oh, yeah. I think I like taking men's songs, you know, because Runaway is really a male song, just like A Woman Too, and I did Hey Joe. Oh, yeah. And that too is very much a man's speech. I don't know why it's just by accident, but it sort of reveals something.

Yeah, it's fun playing a role. I like it when men cover songs that were sung from a woman's point of view. Yeah. And they don't change the gender pronouns. Yes, yes. But my father used to do this when he wrote songs for my mother. They were always from his point of view. So she always sang.

And I think she has a lot of female admirers because yes it speaks to women yeah yeah yeah man I remember when I was at school and I must have been about 11 and we we used to listen to a lot of music we I listened to the charts all the time they were so important I knew exactly what was in the charts what number it was i knew every single song i liked pretty much all of them it was a real shock when gradually over the years like stuff started creeping in i was like i don't like this why is this in the charts but there was a there was a sweet spot for about two years where everything was just golden as far as i was concerned i think it was more or less 81 82 or something like that in the UK.

Oh, yeah. But it was around the same time that I heard Je T'aime for the first time. Really? 81? Yeah. So when was that recorded? In the 60s? No, in the 60s, the version with Brigitte Bardot was done. Oh, OK. That's right. I forgot. She did it first. Yes, but she was opposed to the release of that song.

Because it was too saucy? Because she was getting married the release of that song. Because it was too saucy? Because she was getting married. Okay, fair enough. And this was not the right timing. And then my mother agreed to do it, and that came out, I guess, 74 maybe? Okay. 73, 74?

Right. I think. So, yeah, I was only just suddenly aware of these things that my parents had yeah screened out of my life you know it was possible to do that in those days no internet so you just weren't aware of a load of things i wasn't even aware of the sex pistols or anything like that you know even though i was growing up at exactly the same time in the UK. Occasionally you'd sort of see them on the news or whatever, but my parents would flick over. But yeah, Je T'aime.

And it sort of blew my mind because I just thought, how is it allowed? She's making those sexy sex sounds. And it was sort of passed around like contraband, you know. We heard, listen to this, this is real. It's not real, it can't be real. But yeah, I think he was so proud that it was going around in the black market.

Right, okay. And banished by the Pope, yeah. That's right. What did the Pope say about it? He just said... Oh, I don't know, I just know it was banished. Yeah, he didn't like it. He wasn't playing it at the Vatican discos.

What sort of stuff are you listening to at the moment? A lot of Kanye West. Oh, yeah. A lot. I'm still into Ye. Yeah. Yeah, I love it. Yeah, Ye.

Ye or Ye. Yeah, Ye. I don't know. Does the real-life personality of an artist ever get in the way of your appreciation of their work? That's the big question. That's the question these days, isn't it? Everyone's like, oh, I don't know what to think about this.

Everyone was fine with it for years, and now it's suddenly, hmm. I'm not in the social media, so I don't know if it's a positive point, but that's the way it is. So I'm not aware of everything, and not as quickly as everyone else. So, of course, I've heard declarations that Kanye West did, which were appalling. But I don't know if it's a provocation or if it's heavier than that. I don't know.

But anyway, I don't feel that I shouldn't listen to him anymore because of that. And I love his work so much. And I feel that he's still so original and so new that it's... No, I don't want to condemn him just because, I don't know, because he's saying, well, horrible stuff, yes. But I don't know enough also to really have a real statement or conviction. But I was a bit shocked. Yeah, conviction. But I was a bit shocked. You know, I did the cover of Vogue recently, French Vogue, with my mother and my little sister. And I wanted to use a picture of Matt Dillon taken by Terry Richardson. by uh terry richardson and uh i couldn't it was an old picture from the the 80s and i couldn't because he's uh banned terry richardson what's he been doing awful stuff maybe but i mean he's not there's no judgment i i don't i don't think he's gone through a trial or anything like that.

It's just with the social media, he should be banned and we shouldn't use any pictures of him or other artists. He's not the only one. But I find it very hard to just erase someone. So I don't know. Maybe he has done terrible stuff, but I still believe in justice and trials and, you know, real things.

For me to have just the social media is not enough. Also, from your perspective, your father was someone who could easily be portrayed as monstrous in all sorts of ways. He would have been condemned straight away yeah and so what of his music then people would have not listened to him be he would have been banned from radios and i don't know it's uh it's it's it's tricky because i don't want to of course for the victims i don't want to minimize. But it's just before you get to that judgment, it's too quick.

We're just doing things in a haste. Strange as well that clearly there's some sort of cutoff point because there's all sorts of historical figures that we're not wringing our hands over who did terrible things so many i mean in the museums we should take half of the art out yeah i mean they do that with political figures i guess they take down statues and things like that but with artists they're slower i suppose but you know even people like i mean the marquis de sade we could probably imagine that he had at least some problems. But then Céline with his anti-Semitic visions and he was appalling.

But that doesn't mean that he's less of a genius. And I really don't believe in burning books. And I don't know. But it's a tricky subject. It is. You're a mother. Yeah. You have three children. Yes.

I have three children as well. How old? Mine, I have a daughter who's 10 and two boys, 14 and 16. Yours are a little older, I think. My boy is 21. Right. And I have a 16-year-old girl and a 7-year year old girl and a seven year old girl. Oh man. Yeah.

So how do you enjoy being a parent? It's easy, isn't it? Everyone should do it. No, but also there are such big gaps between the three that it's really like having three different generations. But for me, it's my whole life. I changed when my boy was born. I went from someone who was quite morbid.

I had lost my father when I was 19. I was very dark. And Yvon, the father of my children, said that I changed. It was a real turning point, thank God. So yes, it made me who I am today. But I've never sacrificed any job in order to be at home. I've always managed to take my children with me. So I feel very privileged to have been able to do that but at the same time it means now that I'm touring I'm leaving everyone back home for you know a period of time and it's it's not that obvious for them it's can be tricky and does the experience of being a parent make you

think of your parents differently very much yes because especially with uh i mean with every aspect of life but regarding my work when i realized that they let me start i started when i was 12 so my father made me sing with him but that same year my mother thought that it would be a good idea if I had my own world, in a sense, going to cinema and to have my own projects. And so she suggested for me to do a casting for a film. And I got the part. And that meant that that same year I did a film and a song. And being 12 in a foreign country with a film crew, it was so exciting.

It was a new life. Which film was that? It was called Parole Musique. I have a small part. But I was so young. When I saw my daughter, my 16-year-old daughter at 12, and I thought, so I was out in the wild at that age. I'm very thankful to my parents to have given me that freedom

because maybe it's a time where they were, I don't know, less nervous because I would be would be very very nervous but thank God I started that young because then I never had to ask myself if that was really what I wanted to do I mean it was more obvious than that but so anyway thinking about my parents they've both in a very very different way i've had uh real models of uh education i don't know but a way of thinking for sure do you feel you're more protective of your children more nervous with them than your parents would have been with you? Yes, but that was as a result of them being very hassled when they split up. At first, we used to do magazine photos on Sundays, you know, of a happy family, the four of us.

And then when they separated, the paparazzis were there and it was... How old would you have been i was nine oh man that's hard it was really hard and it was that that was the other side of that public life it was very stressful very uh i saw my parents really miserable my father was miserable because he was on his own but my mother was uh in such a bad, it was such a bad time to have to protect her children and see how wounded my father was and having her own story. I mean, it was very complicated. So after that, I thought, you know, you have to be completely private, never talk about your children, never talk about your boyfriend. But then, after I've been with Yvon for 27 years, now I feel so stupid.

Just, you know, it's... I don't need to be private. I don't need to protect this, our relationship. It's fine. And when I did this album, Rest, I started thinking about videos and I wanted to shoot them myself so I had stories that came up and very soon I realized that I wanted to film my own children and I thought is it a problem to put them out there? And then I did think about my parents and the fact that they always welcomed us in their work, especially my father, because

he was directing videos, he was doing his music. Even I remember when people asked him for an autograph when I hadn't done anything, he would always make me sign too. It was just normal to participate with the people he loved. So I thought, well, maybe I have the right to do the same thing with my own children. And it's really an act of love and just because they are the ones that I want to film of course and I thought for them it's if they want to do it I think they were old enough to say no if they if they didn't think they would enjoy themselves so my son was so so sweet because it was the first video I was doing

and he saw that I was nervous and he was so he wanted to please me and he wanted to to do everything right it was only a video so it wasn't a big deal but for us it was it was a and it was very charming to have that first experience with him and then my two daughters are they on social media? You know, I don't know. I think they are. My son, maybe, yes. But I don't really know. Is it one of your children at the end of the last track on rest? Yes. She was only three. She's quite embarrassed today.

She's seven and she knows her alphabet. Les Oxalis? No, Les Oxalis, that's the last song but she's we it's sort of a hidden track so right yeah it's called joe's abc but it's not liz oxalis ah okay yes yes it's the hidden track and yes it's joe singing the uh singing the alphabet song yes um and then it's suddenly it's a lovely bit of just kind of naturalistic recording in your house or wherever. And then suddenly the full band comes in or the music comes in. It was a present. In fact, my daughter came in the studio while we were recording with Sebastian.

And she went behind the mic and I didn't even really... I didn't know that he was recording her. And so he took it back with him and then made this orchestra the way he does and sent it to me, but it was a joke. OK. And I never thought really that it would end up on the album, but it suddenly made sense you know to to finish with

such a light innocent um note i i was very attached to it in the end it really works because the danger obviously with stuff with your children is that people feel that you're smug about how cute they are or something and they just want to punch you. But I don't think that's not in that category. I don't think so, but I don't really care. But I thought it was very funny. So that's why it's there. Yeah. It's great, the album.

I really love it. Thank you. I loved IRM as well with Beck. was am I right in saying that that was quite a lot of a collaboration with Beck oh yes yeah yeah I mean the whole thing was done with him yeah okay so it wasn't you sort of taking turns no no I went to meet him to see if of course I wanted to work with him and he said let's try. So we started just doing three tracks, and they worked out really well. So we said, let's continue. And it went on for maybe a year.

It was quite long, but each time it was wonderful because I was able to go to Los Angeles, work with him in his own studio. It was very family-like, you know, at his home and very... it was a lovely relationship. Did you know him already? I met him through Nigel Godrich. Ah, yes. So you worked with Nigel. I know Nigel. Yeah?

Yeah, he's an old friend. I haven't seen him so much recently, but... I haven't either. But it's thanks to him and air uh nicolas and jean benoit that i did a record with them all together so that was in 20 2006 555 yes exactly and it was 20 years after the previous album that i had done with my only album that I had done with my father. So it was a big step for me to go back in the studio and, and,

uh, forever. Yeah. Yeah. To, to imagine that I could still do some music. Did they find you and convince you? Cause I know that Nigel was obsessed with,

uh, histoire de melody Nelson. Yes. As were a lot of those LA musicians. That was a big album. And I think for air, my father's music was, still is a big deal, and it's part of their inspiration.

So they were very open about their admiration for my father, but hopefully that's not why they came to see me. But we met at a Radiohead concert out of the blue. I mean, nothing was planned, but then they said, oh, we just talked about you and we should try and do something. So that's how it started. I loved Air. I loved their music. And I was hoping to project myself in their atmosphere,

you know, in their world. So thanks to Nigel, I happened to be in Los Angeles and he said to come by in a studio and there was Beck. They were recording together. Very sweet encounter, but we were not friends right after that it took uh well it took that project to really meet for real did you like beck's music already at that yeah yeah very very much and as an author also i mean you you always think of beck the musician and the i mean the artist but the lyrics and the way he writes, I was able to

be there actually while he was writing. And it seemed so effortless. He had this little notepad and would wander about and come back with a full song. It seemed so easy. And he said, but you have to write. It's nothing. you're making it a big deal but it's nothing you just try and write the the worst song ever that was his advice that's the first step try to write the worst one and then you'll be fine oh that's a good idea yeah because just getting started sometimes not being intimidated by the blank canvas exactly that's and and that it's really thanks to conan moccasin that i i was able to write for the first time because he also said you have to start and i don't speak french so let's go in a place and we went into my country

house at the time he was behind his guitar and making up melodies, and I was able to put words for the first time because he was so very positive thinking, and it was the first step of rest. I love Beck because he does the art pop thing that I really like. Yes. Slightly disposable, silly, sometimes nonsense a lot of the time. You know, it's as if he's just plucking words and phrases and ideas out and making a collage.

And maybe it's a bit superficial sometimes, but it's really fun. Yeah. You know, a bit disposable, like pop. But then he also does that Dylan thing of making songs that really mean something and that you can really feel them, you know, and he's got those albums like, well, Mutations was the one that really got under my skin, first of all, and then Sea Change, which is so indebted to Melody Nelson. Yeah, very much.

Yeah, I love that style. I love that he can do both those things. And I think that you do that as well, really well on Rest. But also working with him was, it seemed like he was always experimenting. And that's what I love about him, is that he's very unexpected. What he does is unexpected. Of course he does pop songs and he knows how to do them. But at the same time, he's interested in everything.

Every sound, every... When I came up with this IRM, MRI sound, because I had gone through a lot of exams and an accident and stuff like that, and I said, do you think we can do a piece of music with this MRI sound, which was really disturbing, and he was so excited by that. So he was open to anything. The more I spoke in French, the better it was. He was not at all saying,

this is how you should do things and this is how you should sing. He made me feel so comfortable, also with the singing. Everything was this positive thinking and positive vibes that's sort of needed when you when you're trying to do something yeah yeah there's lots of good stuff on that IRM record and IRM is just French for MRI yeah I suppose for him it must have been fun to have someone whose first language was French because then it removes an important part of the creative process from his own field of familiarity yes but he was still exploring American culture and and for me it was like entering well it was entering a foreign country

and that culture that was really not mine to have sort of a bit of folk songs. It was a bit of everything, but I had the right to enter because it was him, because he made it mine. But for me, it was very American in a way. And because it was recorded in Los Angeles, it all made sense. But it was very much his culture. But I do understand this thing that you say, that because I was French, the focus was not in the usual place.

Just shifted, yes. Yeah, just shifted, exactly. Right, let's go again. What don't you fucking understand? Kick your fucking ass! Let's go again! What the fuck is it with you? I want you off the fucking set, you prick! What don't you fucking understand? Kick your fucking ass. Let's go again. What the fuck is it with you?

I want you off the fucking set, you prick. No. You're a nice guy. The fuck are you doing? No. Don't shut me up. No. No.

I like this. No. No. Don't shut me up. I like this. Fuck's sake, man, you're amateur. Seriously, man, you and me, we're fucking done professionally. Can we talk about films?

What is it that makes you say yes to a project, a film project? Now I've become much more demanding. It's very instinctive because I still don't know how to analyse a script and to know if something's missing, if plot-wise it's a good script or a bad script. I don't work that way, so I have to fall in love with a story, with a character. And now it's a question of time. It's time away from my family family so it has to mean something i mean i love doing stupid things too but it has to mean something i i really have to be longing to to enter a part and also to collaborate with people i admire so i feel that i I was so lucky to work with certain directors,

people I was fascinated by. It did put the bar very high. Who were the ones that spring to mind? Lars von Trier is really someone that I... He's the only one I did three films with. Yeah. Well, Yvon also, my... I could say husband, but we're not married.

But we've done more than three films now, but that's a bit different. With Lars, each film was completely new. Even if the way of working was similar, he put me in different places where I was not expecting to go. And so the surprise was always so exciting. And it's real work. It's not just letting go. No, it feels like real work.

Were you a fan of his stuff before you worked with him? Yeah, I was. The Dogma films. I loved... Oh, I forgot the name the idiots i love that film i love dogville so yes i i did love his work but i didn't know what to expect when i met him i he was weird and and uh i mean weird he was just original. He didn't seem that interested, so I didn't really know what he was looking for. And I remember stepping out of this first interview

and calling my mother and saying, nah, I don't think it'll work out. He just asked me if I had had a depression, if I had panic attacks, and I felt so normal I said no so I didn't feel that I was weird enough for him uh-huh but in the end he called me back and said I'd love you to do the film so it was the first step so that was to do the Antichrist first of all. Antichrist, yeah. Not the Antichrist, just Antichrist.

Yeah. It's not about the Antichrist. No. No. It's a strange mash-up of genres, that film. That's true, yeah. It's almost a horror, I mean it is kind of a horror film. There's some extreme gore, but there's these psychological elements which are very strong as well.

there's these psychological elements which are very strong as well. Yes, for me it was the whole experience. I know that people often ask me if it was hard, the physical part, if that was hard to be naked and the sex scenes. That wasn't really hard compared to the emotional struggle that was needed in other scenes of the loss of the child. Well, when you're at the child's funeral, you know, and it's this sort of unimaginable pain. That was quite hard.

So all the other stuff was fun. And the screaming in the forest and all that. But when I think about it now, it was so exciting to be able to, in the same day, to scream wildly and then have a sex scene and then an emotional scene. Hit William Defoe's nuts with a hammer. Everyone likes doing that. It was a lot of fun. it was it was a lot of fun and then when that shoot ended and i was back to normal it felt so weird not to be able to scream anymore and just be quiet again so films are quite useful for me how is willem dafoe he's a he's a hero oh he's so wonderful i love his stuff. So generous. And I remember the shoot.

It was a very weird, we were shooting in a weird place. It was a golf course, a hotel on a golf course, completely bleak and awful. An hour away from Cologne in Germany. So it was a bit tough. And Willem and his wife were just below me in that hotel place. Well, there was no reception or anything. It was so isolated. But they would cook in the evening. And it was such a relief to be able to have a lovely meal with him and his wife it was great and he introduced

me to yoga also he did it so intensely it was wonderful and then were you prepared for the response when it came out did you imagine that people would be shocked? I thought that it would be much more difficult than what it was, in Cannes especially, because I thought I had never been to Cannes with a scandalous film or something a little provocative like this film. And I knew that Lars was sort of that kind of a figure so I was expecting booze and you know to be have quite violent explanations and and that wasn't the case people were very

respectful I didn't hear any I don't anything nasty, which didn't mean that it was a deception. But, but it was much easier than what I thought. Okay. Yeah. Because do you have any sympathy for people who are upset by films like that? Can you see it from their point of view? Sure. I mean, because I think from from some people's point of view, they my dad was very conservative, right? Yeah, when he was alive. And he couldn't have got his head around a film like Antichrist. He couldn't even he couldn't have even begun to understand why it was made. Because he would think, what is the point of these boundaries that we have as people, as a society, these taboos, they're in place for a reason.

And what is the point of shoving away at those boundaries? Because that'll just become the norm, and then people have to keep shoving away at the boundaries, and then where are we going to be? Well, yes, I don't agree, but yes. Yeah, what would you say? I love art in that sense, Yeah, what would you say? I love art in that sense because it's important that artists explore taboos.

I find it very useful also to to be able to understand what what respect is about you know uh i don't know if i'm very clear but i think i know yeah but it's it's important to understand the limit between art and real life of course and not to adapt any kind of exploration in art to to bring that back to real life no of course you have to have boundaries in that sense right yeah art provides a sort of safe space for you to explore these ideas and it shouldn't have a direct impact on the way you behave in real life or whatever yeah then it's it's hard to know how but of course it does have an influence yeah it's hard to know how people will absorb any piece of art and you know and and um be so inspired that they could relate to that and and produce something terrible in real life of

course but but anyway about taboos i think it's you have to talk about things for sure talk not not act yeah um and from a practical point of view melancholia that i mean that is a that is a strange film to actually make a film about the end of the world that's so unflinching like that about the sort of banalities of what it would be like if everyone knew the world was going to end in a few weeks yeah what would it really be like what kind of conversations would you actually have it It was a hard watch for me, I must say, because I'm very literal-minded, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. If I'm watching something, I'll just be...

I'll be upset by it... Mm-mm, yeah. ..before I intellectualise it. Yeah, yeah. And did you find yourself getting depressed by...? I was very... Not depressed, but I was in a very bad state during that shoot because I started the film thinking so

I've done Antichrist I know Lars I thought I knew what to expect and then he completely surprised me because we started with the wedding scenes with a lot of people, a much bigger crew than on Antichrist, where we were in that little cabin, just, I don't know, five of us. So suddenly it was a big crew, a lot of figurants, a lot of extras, a lot of actors, and the focus was on Kirsten, not on me. I realised how privileged I had been on Antichrist because he was just there for me I mean for Willem too but it was very focused on me so that made me very unbalanced at at first

and then gradually my self-confidence went from 10 to 0 and I thought that he wanted to fire me I thought that he was so unhappy with what I was doing that suddenly I would get a call from the producer so I went to see one of the producers and said is he so unhappy with what I'm doing and she said no no, not at all. And then she said, but go and see him. So I went to see him, and he said, no, no, no, don't worry. But still I was very, very unsecure. And at the end of the shoot, I went to see the producer that I had talked to, and she said, I'm really really sorry I couldn't really reassure

you because Lars didn't want me to he wanted so I understood that he wanted me to be exactly where I was in that very uncomfortable place and it served the film I guess and you're okay with that sort of thing I mean obviously there are stories about Lars von Trier and Bjork now that have surfaced from Bjork's point of view. She claims that she was uncomfortable with the way he behaved. I was never uncomfortable. He was never, he was always, I mean, I love this game. And it is a game.

And I agreed to play this game from the start. So maybe I have a sort of a masochistic mind, I'm sure. But part of me was really thrilled by the fact that I was his puppet. You know, that he was pulling me in that direction and then in this direction. And even doing takes after takes, what's incredible with him is that you just explore a scene in every possible way and then you don't know what will end up in the film he decides and for Antichrist I got I won

the prize in Cannes but I thought it was really his work because you know I was just an instrument who went all over the place and trusted him, for sure. But he made the character. He made what I got that award for. So you trusted that this was a game, any weirdness from him was just a way of doing things and not something that was ultimately going to diminish you as a person, as an actor. And he asked me to trust him on that.

He said, because I said parts of my body I really don't want you to see, and he said, really trust me, I will not make you be embarrassed by yourself. But it was very specific. On Antichrist, he needed me to agree that I would have a body double for this, that, that on this, you know, in this angle, this is how I would look. And would I agree to that? Once I agreed, it was, you know, we knew what we had to do. I mean, there is a perversion in that game,

but it's more of a moral perversion that I enjoy. You never got a sense, like, when you came off set and went back to your room, you never sort of got the chills and thought, no, no, no, I shouldn't have done that. That was... I felt... Once I said... But he asked me, he said, would you... That was on Antichrist.

He said, would you, that was on Antichrist, he said, would you agree to be on camera with a porn actor that was going to be the body double of Willem, and he was having an erection, and I was to be in that shot, not touching him, not doing anything, but in that same shot. And I said, no, of course, I don't care. doing anything but in that same shot and I said no of course I don't care and I went there and then it being with the camera crew and and this porn actor who was very sweet but suddenly I was in a different film and I stepped out and I said no in fact I can't you know that's my limit. So how did that work in Nymphomaniac was Was all the sort of pornographic close-ups either doubles or prosthetics?

Yes, I had. It was quite comical because there were prosthetics everywhere in the studio, fake vaginas and really vaginas in a bad state. Well, mine, it was quite disgusting. But to have guys at six in the morning strapping you up with that fake thing, it was quite comical. And so we had fun on that film. There's one scene I'm thinking of with a couple of guys,

and they're in the foreground, they're big guys, and they've got big old erections that are sort of waving around, and you're sat on the bed behind. Yes. Were they real erections? Oh, yeah. Oh, okay. Oh, yeah.

Isn't that a strange thing, though, to be in a room? Isn't there a sort of atmosphere that is charged by real erections? It was very weird, but weird and funny i have to say and that scene for me is very very comical so the thing that was weird was that i was placed on you know close to the bed and with those two guys who were actors porn actors too too, but they were not just body doubles, they were the actual actors. So we started the scene and once it was getting pornographic, then I was stepping out and a woman came in to do the body double, but then it was just, they were going to put my face you know it was a post production but a cg magic and the i can see it when i see the when i saw the scene it's

it's very funny because i don't i don't move in the right way okay you're not sort of saying it's like it's reminding me of a children's book now that's not my bottom but on antichrist i was shocked because i saw when i saw the film i i don't have that body i mean down there and i and i thought i should have said something and so on infant maniac they they asked me to to agree on the on the body that was to be me. And it's true that vaginas are very different. Sure. It's a whole persona. Absolutely.

They're very characterful. Wait. This is an advert for Squarespace. Every time I visit your website, I see success. Yes, success. The way that you look at the world makes the world want to say yes. It looks very professional. I love browsing your videos and pics and I don't

want to stop. And I'd like to access your members area and spend in your shop. These are the kinds of comments people will say about your website if you build it with Squarespace.

Just visit squarespace.com slash Buxton for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, because you will want to launch, use the offer code Buxton to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. So put the smile of success on your face with Squarespace. Yes. Continue. Hey, welcome back, podcats. That was Charlotte Gainsbourg talking to me there. And I have posted in the description of this podcast a few links to bits and pieces, a music video for a track from Rest, I think it's the title track even, and an interview on a video podcast I thought was quite good called Soul Sisters.

Plus links to some of the Serge Gainsbourg music we mentioned, including Histoire de Melody Nelson, which is really a terrific album. Anyway, there's so much to explore in the world of the Gainsbourgs. So many intriguing and odd aspects to Charlotte's story over the years. And obviously her dad is quite, I mean, you could spend a long time going down a Serge Gainsbourg rabbit hole on YouTube. But anyway, I'm going to keep it relatively short this week. Got to get home, try and do a bit more writing.

But I did want to mention that this Sunday, the 19th, on BBC Two at 9.30, is the first episode of What We Do in the Shadows, the TV version of the excellent film written and directed by Taika Waititi and Jermaine Clement. And I think those two are still involved with the TV show. But of course, one of the stars of the TV version is friend of the podcast. Well, two friends of the podcast, Matt Berry and Tash Dimitriou, two-time podcast guest and one of the funniest people around at the moment.

Kay Van Novak is also in the show and he's also brilliant. But anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing that this Sunday, 9.30 on BBC Two, what we do in the shadows. But that's it for this week. Rosie! Dogaris! Come, stop gambling. Let's head back. Rosie, come on. Come on, let's go. Come on. I'm running, I'm running. Come on, Rosie. Oh, here she comes. Good fly past from the hairy bullet. Thanks very much indeed to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his invaluable production support on this episode.

Thanks to Matt Lamont for gifting us his edit whizbot skills. Thanks to ACAST for hosting this and other so many great podcasts. Don't forget to check out the free Adam Buxton app on which you will find links

to all sorts of great stuff. Jingles, amazing videos, some of which are exclusive to the app, and bonus audio content, all exclusive to the app. Some whole extra episodes of the podcast, as well as extra bits of chat from people like Johnny Marr and Garth Jennings and James Acaster. It's all there on the app. Have a look. Or don't. We'll stay friends either way.

Until next time you choose to pay me and Rosie a visit, I'm begging you, take care. My wife doesn't like the expression take care. I don't know what her problem is with it. I'm begging you, take care. My wife doesn't like the expression, take care. I don't know what her problem is with it. I guess maybe she feels that I'm such a wally that the idea of me telling anyone to take care is a little ridiculous. It's not a bad point. Yesterday, for example, we got a new stove installed in the barn. And I was taught how to use it. It's like a wood burner with a glass panel on the front.

And I was learning how to use it. And within one hour, I had burned my hand on my palm. Boy, it's painful. And i did the exact wrong thing which was uh put ice on it immediately apparently you're not supposed to put ice on it i googled later on what are you supposed to do with burns and the first thing all of the uh websites said was whatever you do don't put ice on the burn apparently it causes tissue damage but i think maybe that's more if you're worried about long-lasting cosmetic damage you know what i mean as far as i can tell it hasn't made too much difference to my little My little Robbie Byrne, David Byrne, which is healing up fine. But yeah, wow, for a couple of hours, I was in great pain.

What do you think, Techno Bird? Techno Bird is saying, yep, you definitely shouldn't be telling people to take care because you're a wally. Screw you, Technobird! Take care. I love you. Bye! Thank you. Give me a smile and a thumbs up. Give me a smile and a thumbs up. Give me a smile and a thumbs up. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe.

Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Give me a smile and a thumbs up. Give me a smile and a thumbs up. Give me a smile and a thumbs up. Give me a smile and a thumbs up. Thank you.