THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.94 - NINA STIBBE

Episode Date: May 25, 2019

Adam talks with British writer Nina Stibbe, about David Sedaris, sex and inappropriate male behaviour from the 70s and beyond, and the dangers of writing about real people. There's also some discussion of dentistry and thigh vaginas.Nina is the author of 'Love Nina- Dispatches From Family Life' (2013), a collection of letters that she wrote to her sister Vicky in the 80s while working in North London as a nanny to the children of Mary-Kay Wilmers, who was the editor of the London Review of Books.'Man At The Helm' (2014), is the first in a series of comic novels about Nina's fictional alter ego Lizzie Vogel, in which the young Lizzie and her siblings trying to find a suitable man for their wayward Mum.'Paradise Lodge' (2016) finds the teenaged Lizzie working at a care home for the elderly.The latest in the Lizzie Vogel series is called 'Reasons To Be Cheerful' (2019) and this time the story takes place in the early 80s as Lizzie finds work as a dental assistant, a job that Nina herself did for several years as a young woman.This conversation was recorded in London, March 2019Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production support and to Matt Lamont for additional editing.RELATED LINKSNINA RECEIVES AN HONORARY DEGREE FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF LEICESTERhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-5cE8X5MQY'APOLLO 11' DOCUMENTARY TRAILER https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Co8Z8BQgWcGIL SCOTT-HERON - WHITEY ON THE MOONhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goh2x_G0ct4THE ADAM BUXTON APPhttps://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/the-adam-buxton-app/id1264624915?mt=8 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin. Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening. I took my microphone and found some human folk. Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke. My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man. I want you to enjoy this. That's the plan. Hey!

That's a high one. How you doing, podcats? Excuse me. That was probably the moment for a lot of people where they thought, Nah, I don't think this podcast is for me and they would have switched off right then or they would have just skipped to the conversation hey look it's cool either way it's not a problem I'm very easy going wow I wish you could be out here with me today podcats not all of you but a nice

selection of some of the better ones. It is just the most incredibly beautiful day. And I am joined as usual on a walk by my best dog friend, Rosie Buxton, half whippet, half poodle, all dog. And one of the best ones at that. And one of the best ones at that. She's taking a dump. A summery dump. Anyway, listen. Today you will hear my conversation with British writer Nina Stibbe.

Nina facts. Nina was brought up in Leicester with her unconventional single mum and her upbringing and the twists and turns her life took thereafter form the basis for a series of comic novels featuring Nina's fictional alter ego, Lizzie Vogel. Nina's book Man at the Helm, published in 2014, is about Lizzie and her siblings trying to find a suitable man for their wayward mum. Paradise Lodge, published in

2016, finds the teenage Lizzie working at a care home for the elderly. Like Man at the Helm, the story is set in the 70s and it gives Nina the opportunity to make some very funny observations about the peculiarities of British life and society in that decade, and we talked about some of the more shocking of those peculiarities in this conversation. So if you're likely to be offended by frank discussions of attitudes and behaviour that most of us would now agree are not acceptable, then you might want to have a finger, or whatever part of your body you use to stop offensive podcasts, hovering over the pause button. The latest in Nina's Lizzie Vogel series is called Reasons to be Cheerful.

That was published earlier this year, 2019. And this time the story takes place in the early 80s as Lizzie finds work as a dental assistant, a job that Nina herself did for several years as a young woman. We'll talk about that. Nina's first book, Love, Nina! Dispatches from Family Life, was published in 2013. And Love, Nina! was a collection of letters that Nina wrote to her sister in the 80s

while she was working in North London as a nanny to the children of Mary Kay Wilmers, who was the editor of the London Review of Books. The letters chart the young Nina's adventures at the Wilmers' house, which included regular encounters with a variety of colourful characters, including stars of the literary world like Jonathan Miller and especially Alan Bennett, who would join Nina, Mary and the children quite a lot for supper.

Over the course of the book, you also see Nina making the decision to go into higher education and study humanities at Thames Poly, which was where she met her friend Stella. And Stella was with Nina the day we recorded our conversation. She was sat on the same sofa as Nina, and now and then Nina would ask her a question and Stella would respond off mic. ask her a question and uh stella would respond off mic um but yeah it was it was really fun hanging out with nina and stella i'll be back at the end with more solo burbling but right now here we go First on this, then concentrate on that. Come on, let's chew the fat and have a ramble chat. Put on your conversation coat and find your talking hat. La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la Hey Nina, it's very nice to meet you. Hey, it's lovely to be here.

With your friend Stella. She has sat on the sofa with you. Yes, Stella Heath. So I said that in a way that suddenly changes the tone of our interaction and turns it into like we're live. Yes I know I noticed and I'm a bit I'm lagging behind right I'm going to change. Hi! And you as soon as I said hi Nina nice to meet you you immediately looked guarded. I did well that's how that happens doesn't it so I'm going to I'm a little horse actually can you tell I'm a little horse? No, I couldn't tell. Yeah, I'm not used to this. I'm just thinking of little horse jokes. Yeah, I know. I knew you would. Sorry. That's just you.

That's the level I generally operate at. Yeah, good. That's why I'm here. Now you are, I mean, there's a lot I want to talk to you about. I really love your stuff. My friend Garth Jennings got me into it. Oh, Garth. I love Garth. a few years ago. So how do you know Garth? I know Garth because out of the blue, he wrote to me to say how much he liked my books. I think my first book, actually, Love, Nina. And when people do that and they have no reason to do it, it's so touching. So we sort of kept in touch after he'd done that. We're kind of friends and we love each other's stuff.

You know, I love his films. I love Son of Rambo, which I think you had a little part in. I was in Son of Rambo. Yes, that's one of the three films in 2006. Were you the teacher? I was the teacher and I was badly injured in the head in each of the films that I was in. And I've got a part in Sing 2. Oh, good.

Are you in Sing 1? Garth always says, oh, yeah, he's in. Yeah. And I've got a part in Sing 2. Oh, good. Are you in Sing 1? Garth always says, oh, yeah, he's in Sing 1, but it's really like, I say two words in the background of a couple of scenes. No, you're in Sing 1 then. But you've got a bigger part in Sing 2.

So far, you never know, though. You never know. Anything could happen. Exactly. Things always... Exactly. But aren't they great films? Well, I've not seen Sing 2, but Sing 1 is just a joy you've got children right yes and were they the right age for sing

they were the right age for sing they were a little bit older than the target audience but funny enough they went to see it in truro when it came out and they loved it and and my son Alfie is now 17 is a complete Beatles fan he's mad has always been mad on the Beatles and when that song I can't even remember the name of it golden slumber yes yeah yeah he he was just overwhelmed I decided to sing it rather than just say the title yeah and then it goes to you've got to carry this right carry that weight carry that weight yes it's marvelous anyway so yes we loved it i loved it what's alfie's favorite beatles album um not that you should know necessarily no he'll be really i'm gonna have to answer that question i predict that it will be either rubber soul or revolver

i think it might be revolver revol. Revolver's pretty good. He's obsessed. And his favourite Beatle is George. Well, that's a good favourite. Yeah, he loves John, but he loves the feel of George. And he got involved with all those films. He was involved with Alan Bennett with the, you know, the pig film. I can't remember the name of it now.

Yeah, Private Function. Private Function, yes. Handmade films, wasn't it? And they did Life of Brian. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, he was. Private function, yes. Handmade films, wasn't it? Yeah. And they did Life of Brian. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, he was an amazing guy. And there was the whole sort of Michael Palin, Alan Bennett, George Harrison thing going on. But, Adam, do you know what's so funny?

Yeah, go on. Is that I imagined that we'd be talking, walking in the highways and byways of Norfolk. We should have done that. I know. But it's too far away from you. Byways and byways of Norfolk. We should have done that. I know.

But it's too far away from you. But the thing is, you know, in my mind, sometimes I imagine you sort of with Zadie Smith sort of in a studio. No, we sat here. Did you? This is my friend Mark and Zivy's house in London. So this is where you do that. But you know when you did say Garth and Mindhorn?

Yeah, that was Garth. Why are you walking along? Yeah, because they're the only people that will come and visit me in Norfolk. But you see, I wanted to. And you know when I was a bit sort of, oh, I can't do it yet, I'll do it later. It wasn't... If I thought it was in London, I would have done it then.

But I thought I'd got to get from Truro to Norfolk and I thought, well, I must make a thing of it. Because you know when you live in Norfolk or Cornwall, you come to London and you just cram everything in don't you yeah and so you think oh I've got to go and do the interview with blah so oh I'll see that person that person that person and then you have a free evening and you go to a bizarre party that you wouldn't perhaps have gone to yeah that's isn't that strange that that happens it's fun though

don't you think oh yes because you do things you would never have done. Yeah. I mean, it took me a while to make that adjustment. Yeah. Because every time I would go to London, I'd just be like, I'd go mental. Yes. And I'd be like, I'm off the leash. I can do what I want.

There's no children around. My wife's not around. I wasn't sort of doing anything inappropriate. But I was, you know, yeah, just gallivanting. Yes. Do you get bored with that? I mean, I got bored with gallivanting quite quickly. I did get bored.

I used to come back and feel all hollow. Yes. And just reproach myself the next morning for having drunk too much or whatever. But I'd still be in my wellies from Cornwall, because in Cornwall, it's probably the same in Norfolk. We don't really have to get dressed. I mean, you just pop an anorak on and a pair of wellies and head out to the woods it is the same in Norfolk we don't generally dress I work in a shed that's across the way from the

house our house is out in the middle of the countryside see this is what I was imagining yeah and so in the morning I'll get my cup of tea and some toast and I'll walk across to the shed which is where my studio is. And sometimes, and I've got a, it's like a little flat over there. Yeah. And I've got my own washing machine and things like that. It's pretty great. You're self-contained.

Yeah, I'm totally independent from the chaos in the main house if I want to be. Oh, we all need this. It's good. And it's where my dad lived when he moved in with us. Yes. So it's very useful to have. And now my teenage sons use it to hang out and have parties and things like that. We're very lucky.

But occasionally I will forget that I've left all the washing across the way and I have no clean clothes. So I'll have to just walk nude across to the shed and the children have usually gone to school yeah but I'm always thinking this is risky because the DPD guy could turn up yeah absolutely but those little risks are so enjoyable yeah yeah we all do it I mean I don't sort of dash across the courtyard naked like you do but I do do things I think this is really the thing I do is I go for a wee downstairs and I don't shut the door and anyone because I've got two teenagers and they've always got people around and it that would be terrible wouldn't it imagine I saw Eva's mum on the loo it would be really shaming she'd think you were groovy. No, they don't.

You know that they don't think that. You know, you have to keep well out of the way. Well, everything you do as a parent is embarrassing to a teenage child, isn't it? No matter what. But not all parents get that. They think they're cool. I know I'm not cool. I got it very quickly and I keep out of the way.

And I'm so reluctant that it's gone a bit the other way and they'll call me mum Jack's here come and say hello and I think yeah great because I'm so hidden away and reclusive yeah but not not all parents are like that they could try and hang out and I think that's very uncool no I feel very awkward I must say and I think that I'm probably as you say too far the other way I feel as if I'm slightly scary grumpy it's best say. And I think that I'm probably, as you say, too far the other way. I feel as if I'm slightly scary, grumpy. It's best way. Shadow dad. I think that's the way.

That's how you should be. I'm proud of you for doing that. Thanks very much. Well done. I can't lose you um your ma is still with us right yeah what's her namespeth. And I've heard you talk about this before, but I'm curious and, you know, I guess we have to assume that a lot of people listening to this might be new to your stuff. So I hope you won't mind repeating yourself to some degree.

But she looms large in your fictional universe. She does. So, yes, my three novels are very autobiographical and I never intended to reveal that. I always thought I'd just say they were novels, but very early on I did blurt it out and then people very interested because, you know, interesting stuff happens. And my mum, if you have a mum like mine, why would you not write about her? I mean, she was in the first novel, she was a little bit tragic in a way because my father left her for a man. And that's fine nowadays.

But back in the mid 60s, that was quite shaming, really, for her. And she got four kids. She was this single mom and she was sort of groovy and a bit unorthodox and a bit badly behaved. And she's a bit of a drinker and funny. And she met this sort of rather ordinary guy, my stepdad, and she's a bit of a drinker and funny. And she met this sort of rather ordinary guy, my stepdad, and she married him. But yeah, she's always been a bit of a naughty one. And so if you've got someone like that in your life

who doesn't mind you writing about it, why wouldn't you? And how did you establish that she didn't mind? Was it a formal conversation or did you just sort of start writing and then she didn't object? I had written an autobiographical novel and tried to sort of start writing and then she didn't object I had written an autobiographical novel and tried to sort of send it out to publishers and agents over the years

and that was before love Nina that was before love Nina my memoir and letters came out so I'd written it and I'd sort of sent it out a bit and I'd always thought I better not publish this it's too close to the truth and everyone's going to be really cross because you know I talk about my mum and I also talk about people being not very nice to us and being a bit sort of snippy about my mum being a single mum and all that kind of stuff and so it was just sort of something I did I was just always tinkering with it and then completely by accident I published Love Nina because a publisher happened to be in somebody's house and I'd sent her some of the letters we'd found the letters and I was typing them up and emailing them to

this woman who I'd worked for as a nanny and this publisher happened to be in her house and she happened to read them and offered me a contract for the book and so that was I mean Adam that's such a huge thing I was 50 years old you You know, imagine that. It was just crazy. So I quickly then wanted to rewrite the letters and make myself look better and nicer and cleverer. But I couldn't because she got them. The publisher already had them. So that was it. I had to stand behind them exactly as they were. Oh, really? You didn't change that much? I took a few things out. Yeah. But I wasn't allowed to change or add anything. So, you know, there I was sort of being awful about Shakespeare and being awful about Thomas Hardy and

sort of being a bit flippant about Alan Bennett. I didn't, you know, if I'd been able to edit the letters, I'd have said, oh, Alan Bennett, he's writing this cutting edge television. He's such a marvel. But what I'd really written in 1982 or whatever i'd written alan bennett really doesn't know how to make a salad he keeps putting oranges in it or that kind of thing and so he's just this ordinary rather silly person yeah instead of the marvel so that book came out but of course that's what's so great about it, is that you do get that completely different As it turned out, yes. Different perspective.

That's what most people liked about it. Yeah, yeah. I think Alan would quite have liked me to have included some other stuff about him, but it put him on the map, Adam. Come on. Yeah, of course. No, he's done well out of it. He's done very well out of it.

Jonathan Miller pops up as well. You borrow some tools from Jonathan Miller. Yeah, borrow the saw. And there are lots of sort of literary and creative people dotted around. Well, I remember as well your trip to the theatre to see a play by Beckett. Oh, yes. Samuel Beckett. With Stella.

I think Stella fell asleep in the play. Right. And he looked like a ragged old fisherman or something. He was there in the audience. And he was sat there. It was Billy Whitelaw, but it was just her sort of saying, bing, bong, bing, bong, or something. It was 85.

And you weren't having it, as I recall. Yeah, I didn't think much to it. And also, I'd seen Beckett sitting there and nobody believed me. And, you know, that sort of thing would always happen to me. I'd sort of suddenly Prince Charles would be somewhere and I'd go, oh, look. And they'd go, no, it isn't. It's like the time you saw Jackie O. And I'd go, no, it was Jackie O.

And two days ago, I saw Ken Loach in Pizza Express. It was him on his own having a pizza, having a Veneziana. Honestly, it was him. but nobody would believe me. It was him. I can believe that Ken Loach would be in Pizza Express. It's very late at night, though. Now, that night when we saw Ken Loach was a very exciting night because I had just done an event with your friend, David Sedaris.

Oh, I wanted to talk to you about him. Oh, my gosh. I I mean I would hesitate to call him my friend I wish that he was your podcast with him made me die oh good I'm glad you like some people were quite upset and said like you should have put warnings that he was going to talk about gouging eyeballs and eating them but your response was so wonderful. But yeah, so I'd done an event with him at the British Library. And I'd had to interview him. And I was absolutely terrified. Was that the first time you'd met him?

Yes. I adore him. I think he's my number one writer. Yeah, I mean, he's hard to beat. He's just extraordinary. He's like an alien. Yeah. The way he looks at the world.

He wrote me a postcard afterwards. Oh, you lucky thing. I'm sure he'll write you one. He better write me a postcard. He took my address. At one point he just said, oh, what's your address? And he wrote me a postcard. I know that he does it a lot.

Oh, well, now if he doesn't send me one, I'm going to be devastated. Mind you, the post intro can be a bit late. Go on, tell me, what did he say? What was he like? He was absolutely fantastic. If he doesn't send me one, I'm going to be devastated. Mind you, the post intro can be a bit late. Yeah. Go on, tell me, what did he say? What was he like? He was absolutely fantastic. I was very intimidated and very nervous. Same, yes.

Because I thought, where's he going to be at? He could easily be quite cranky and spiky. That's what I thought, but I don't think he ever would be. No, instead he was very warm, like immediately. And so polite and formal yeah hence the letter writing thing yes yes and hence the compulsion to meet people and talk to them at length and not just do a sort of cursory meet and greet yeah have you seen him doing a signing no but we talked about it it's extraordinary he's there for 11 hours. I still don't quite understand the logistics of how you do an event in the evening and then stay at the venue for up to 11 hours.

Well, I'll tell you what happens. Quite often at a big venue, he will start the signing well before the event. So it starts before and people have got to know that. And then afterwards, he sits and he says how big the table is to be and exactly how it is. And he has two helpers, not his. The venue has to provide two helpers and they make people write on post-its what they want to write. And then David has his dinner.

At the table? At the table. And so he'll have, you know, steak and potatoes. table and so he'll have you know steak and potatoes and it's wonderful because one time a man reached over and took one of the potatoes what a guy who was queuing to get his signature yeah he took one of david's potatoes that's not cool it wasn't cool and david was really upset yeah now i'm trying to make it sound as if i was there when it happened but i wasn't i think it might have been in the USA. But it happened because David told me all about it.

It sounds like the kind of thing that would happen in the USA. I can't see that happening in the UK. People taking each other's potatoes. No, I can't see. I mean, if it were a chip. Yeah, that's maybe different, but still. My memory is it was like a new potato. I was taking the piss.

And he popped it in his mouth. And then David was so annoyed. It was sort of reflected in the signing. I'm sure. But isn't he just the most charming, delightful man? Yeah, really nice. I mean, I'm sort of counting the months until I can ask him to come back. Oh, you must have him back.

Talk to me more. He's just got an interesting, funny perspective on so many things. And especially nowadays where it's people are very cautious, quite rightly, a lot of the time about what they say. And people are trying to think more carefully about their attitudes and prejudices. You get the impression that he's not that much. No, he's not. He's not. He does seem to just say it as he finds it.

And he's, well, he's a chronicler and that's his job. But he's very liberal and kind. So he will report, I mean, you've read the diaries. Oh, my God. I mean, you know, some of the things, some of the domestic abuse and stuff in there, you think, wow, I'm not sure I'd be talking about that. But actually, isn't it great that he did? I think so, yeah.

I mean, one of the things that I'm asked about a lot is writing about my family. And do they mind? Is it, you know, and what's the moral and ethical position of this? Because I'm telling their story. And I think possibly one of the reasons I love David Sedaris so much is because he does it more than I do. And I'm like, well, you know, I'm not as bad as... Let's you off the hook. But Sedaris is a god.

Yeah, he's great. I'm very happy with 99.9% of what he does. Yeah, Defo. I just said Defo. Well, I said same. Same? Same's nice. Yeah, but I'm a bit old to say same.

Nah, that's nice. That reminds me of the good old days. Oh. Thank you. one of the things sadera seldom talks about is sex oh same is that right because i do not like writing about sex no okay but it pops up a little more than it does in david sedaris's work i think he has sex in his diaries but he says after the sex i thought such and such so he we know he's had it but he doesn't describe it thank god right it's the sort of final frontier i would say quite rightly i i feel very conflicted about the sex positive modern world where people are trying to be all groovy and positive about pornography and sex in general and like let's

get it out in the open let's talk about it yes let's not feed people's hang-ups and let's make it a sort of inclusive non-judgmental environment great but let's not feed people's hang-ups and let's make it a sort of inclusive, non-judgmental environment. Great. But let's not remove all the things that are fun about sex, the kind of furtive, creeping around secret aspects. This is it. I haven't heard many people say that because some people sort of don't want to read about it and don't want it out in the open and other people do. But it does slightly ruin it, doesn't it? I think it does I don't really enjoy writing about sex and I had to write about sex in my latest book

because my character my narrator my protagonist had become 18 and although in real life me as 18 I wasn't going anywhere near it I was very odd and eccentric and strange but i thought well no she's got to at least you know know it exists and talk about it a little bit so i had to sort of have her being a bit you talk about she kisses this guy and who she really likes and she's impressed that he doesn't is the phrase you use wind his head around yeah he doesn't, is the phrase you use, wind his head around? Yeah, he doesn't do that. The clothes washer style of French kissing. Dominic in showing Adam. It was such a shock.

I remember the first time I had one of those, because it's like French kissing. Wow. That was a revolution. When you find out, did you French her? What are you talking about? You know, with tongues. And I thought, no, I didn't put my tongue in her mouth. I'm not insane.

I don't want to die. You're just exchanging all your germs. Why on earth would you do that? That was way before I found out about oral sex. Holy Christ. Oh, God, Adam. So French kissing. All right, great.

Wow, I'm touching tongues with this person. This is very exciting. But then the day you French kiss with someone and they do the washing machine on you. That thing. wow, I'm touching tongues with this person. This is very exciting. But then the day you French kiss with someone and they do the washing machine on you. That thing. And it's totally, there's no passion in it whatsoever. It's just like. Yeah, but you'd see people doing it.

I don't think they do it now. You never see anyone doing it now. Do you like watching people kiss like that in a film? Yeah, I think it's quite funny. Do you? Yeah. I don't like you like watching people kiss like that on in a film yeah i think it's quite funny do you yeah i don't like it because i have to make the noises when we're watching me and my wife and they start doing a long kiss like that we we have to start going well the worst is when they kiss on the archers and obviously they can't sort of it's very difficult so they do quite a lot of sort of mouthy noises

and my friend john says they get out the plungers and the wet rags but yeah no i'm i'm just i think sex should be completely private and secret and we shouldn't talk about it or see it on films really and writers shouldn't have to write about it i mean there's two sides isn't't there? Because I grew up in a household where sex was never mentioned. And not because anyone was very puritanical or anything. I don't think. They were just conservative and they thought it was embarrassing and they didn't want to deal with it. So you're younger than me, aren't you? You must be about 32. So you're younger than me, aren't you?

Yeah, I'm 50. You must be about 32. That's right. Are you 50? Yeah. So you're 50. So you're not that much younger than me. Although, listeners, I actually look older than Nina does, which is a bit of a drag.

No, you don't. You look really young. Thanks very much. You've got very good hair. Thanks. Although within a year, I would say it's going to be as grey as my beard. No, but it's not about the colour. It's about a good, thick head of hair. All right, thanks. Hey, this is nice. And you've got a grey as my beard. No, but it's not about the colour. It's about a good thick head of hair.

All right, thanks. Hey, this is nice. And you've got a good haircut. Oh, you reckon? Yeah, I like you. I think you're a very good looking man. Oh, this is exactly how I hoped this would turn out. Yeah, you are.

Do you know who you look a bit like? Yeah, who? You look like a cross between Canoe Reeves and David Nicholls the writer. Both very handsome men. Doesn't he look a bit like Canoe? How do you say it? Canoe.

Canoe. Keanu. Keanu, is it? Yeah. I've always said Canoe. Come on. You've never heard Keanu. Do you know, I always thought I was really funny,

but actually I'm just pronouncing things wrong. No, you do look like David Nichols and Canoe Rings both very handsome thank you don't you agree Stella may I return the compliment you know Stella won't she will not agree do you agree no who do I look like well you look like sort of a lot of girls that I've gone out with oh my god and and I definitely when I was reading Love Nina I just thought I would have gone out with you so much I just yeah I was so cool then were you just into the same sort of stuff that I was into and your mind worked in a way that was very appealing and opinionated yeah opinionated I know i i do like myself then i was really great

i was i wasn't i wasn't particularly attractive though you know that's not true i've seen pictures of you i was a bit grotty how uh how have you changed then why why are you no longer i i'm much more keen to please people you know i'm i'm i want people to like me. And so sometimes I'm perhaps a bit, you know, I don't say, oh, you know, you're an idiot. And maybe that comes with age. I don't know. No, that's in itself an attractive quality, I would say. Which one? You know, caring about what other people think.

Yes, that's it. You can spin it as being sort of needy or unctuous or whatever. There's lots of negative ways to spin that but i think you care about what people think and you care about not needlessly hurting people's feelings and ruining their day well i remember i had a thing where i thought it was completely unnecessary to say goodbye at the end of a phone call i think i've seen people do it in films where they go yeah meet me at the blah and then hang up I thought that's cool they don't have to do that stupid platitudinous saying goodbye

yeah so I'd be a bit like that and people would say to me gosh you just hung up on me and that would be funny to have sort of because I think you're talking about thrillers and things where it's like cops or robbers or baddies yeah but mine was like just planning to meet at the pub. Yeah. And I'd hang up. I think it would be nice, though, to have some baddies that said, all right, bye-bye. Yeah. Bye.

Bye-bye, bye-bye, bye-bye, bye-bye. No, you hang up. Yeah. Well, despite your queasiness about sex when you're writing. Yeah. Not in your own life. I'm not going to cast dispersion. I'm very keen. IRL, very keen.

You do have some good little observations about sex and particularly attitudes to sex in the 70s and in the 80s when the new book is set. And there's some stuff, there's a lot of stuff that makes me laugh. But you mentioned the fact that men used to get their cocks out much more routinely. Yeah, can I just say to the listeners that I would never use the C word? No, no, no.

Sorry, I regret using it. You say penis. Penis. I do because I think it has to be called that in that context. Us guys say cocks. I know you have to. Yeah, because it makes us feel more comfortable. It's like women say growler.

You know? Stella doesn't say growler. Don't you say ground? No. Anyway, I said that men got their penises out in the 1980s because they did. They did. I mean, even I remember that. I remember going to...

It didn't happen all the time. My friends were not in the habit of getting out their willies. No, but you were young then then but sort of grown men when i became i was a bartender for a long while and we had these things called bar huddles where all the bartenders would get together and go crazy and i was already thinking i don't know about this because i was never a sport guy so when we used to get together and drink me and joe and louie and people and my pals we would be just crapping on about films and things like that and we didn't it wasn't too laddish in that way yes and then suddenly i went to the bar huddle and it was very laddy and it was and we got absolutely hammered and then at one point one guy sort of passed out and he was just sat in the chair with

his head lolling it was all like so everyone took polaroids of like each one of them standing behind this guy with their willy resting on his shoulder oh yeah like a parrot yes and i didn't do that i would i'm really glad you didn't do it i just thought that's completely normal for back then yeah and i remember thinking i don't i'm not going to go to another bar huddle. Yeah, no, don't ever go to bar huddles. I felt bad for the guy. I thought, this is humiliating. You see, when people talk about sort of toxic masculinity, part of the problem is that so much was expected of you guys back then that you know you were expected to in order to join

in and be part of the group and be accepted you had to put your willy on the man's shoulder in the photo and it was very hard to say no I really get that and I'm really you know I've got brothers and they were all you know very well behaved I have to say but I know that they will have had times where they were expected to do awful things. But my memory as a female at that time was that often men would get their penis out and it wouldn't always be an aggressive act or it wasn't, you know, it wasn't like, you know, a horrible flasher scenario. It would be seen as a compliment. Can you give me an example? compliment it was can you give me an example well even someone once was driving me somewhere you know gave me a lift somewhere or was taking me out to the cinema as you know you might do in those days you'd be taken out and sitting in the passenger seat and he's driving along one-handed

undoing his trousers and getting his penis out but that was an overture to what he hoped was going to be a great yeah and it's, it was quite precarious anyway, because he wasn't that good a driver and it was, you know, busy streets of Leicester and Leicester's, you know, heaving at that time of night. So he's driving on one-handed, trying to change gear quickly. And it was completely unerotic and not very pleasant. And I just said, for God's sake's sake you know put your hands on the wheel we're gonna crash and you know there's lots of things like that but one of the things I talked

about last night I did this little book talk and the interviewer got me onto this thing and actually the audience were a bit horrified because it went on too long was about when women had driving lessons in the 70s and 80s that often the driving instructor would you know yeah just being in a close tiny little space in close proximity with a young woman because often you were very young having driving lessons 17 18 yeah and obviously they couldn't control themselves and and the old the old penis had come out and you know there was this one driving instructor that we all knew would do that but he was really cheap and had never had a fail. So you'd be like, yeah, can I handle it?

Can I handle it? Can I handle Harry Janis getting his penis out? Yeah. I guess that's the thing that's shocking for younger people, isn't it? Is that it's impossible nowadays to think of that kind of thing as anything other than sort of violence in a way. Yes. Sexual violence, harassment at the very least yes and i think today it would be yeah but back then of course there were the violent times and i had lots of

horrible flashy experiences where it was somebody sort of trying to impose some kind of weird power thing i mean there were lots of men older men who would suddenly whop it out and it would be a bit scary but there were the other times where it was, I think, you know, trying to signal, you know, can we be romantic? You know, and actually, funnily enough, in my current book, the book that just came out today. Reasons to be cheerful. is out and my editor suggested I add the line this was often meant as a compliment or something like that and she's younger than me but it was a very clever intervention because it was often meant kindly yeah I mean obviously it's now possible to decode that and to say well it was probably indicative of certain oh absolutely toxic yeah it wasn't coming from a good place no exactly in general but the actual in the moment it wouldn't be someone that meant you harm necessarily no no yeah but it was

deeply wrong and horrible but you know this shocking thing looking back was i mean there was one time stella and me were on holiday with some friends, some other girls. We had a big girly holiday and we weren't cavorting, but we were splashing in the sea. But we weren't naked. I mean, we had our bathing suits on, but we were splashing around. And there was a man sitting on a sort of a rock, masturbating. Oh, mate. And we all ignored him. And then Stella hadn't got her glasses on, so she couldn't see.

And I said, oh oh there's a man having a wank over there and Stella marched over to him and sort of hit him around the head Stella probably said can you stop and go away, I don't think I would have hit him around the head well I'm a writer, I've embellished it

I've gilded the lily she marched over, punched him in the knob and she slapped him with her growler I've gilded the lily. She marched over, punched him in the knob. Yes. And she slapped him with her growler. No, and then just after that, we were in a taxi going to the airport on that same holiday. And so we were in a taxi, a little group of us girls. I was sitting in the front seat next to the taxi driver and we were on these sort of mountainous roads on the way to Harnier Airport in Crete.

And again, we weren't naked. We'd got clothes on. Good job. And we weren't being sexual in any way. And the taxi driver started masturbating as he drove along. Yeah. And I think he started doing it because a Madonna song came on. Sure.

Right. And it was, I can't remember. It might have been like a virgin. And was going really getting into it and I I wanted I wanted to tell the others in the back what was happening and also I thought he could crash so I said guys the taxi driver and I sort of said it in pigeon English just like because he was Greek and I didn't want him to know what I was saying for some reason and they didn't believe me. You don't want to hurt the guy's feelings I actually didn't

this is trying to please people anyway recently the Guardian wrote to me and said, could I write about Madonna? It's her 60th birthday. And do I, am I a fan of Madonna? And I went, no, I'm fucking not a fan of Madonna. And I said, I told the story to the Guardian.

I said, you know, basically her song coming on, I'm not, I'm not blaming Madonna directly, but her song coming on gave him the horn. So I do not, I don't like Madonna because of that. So yeah we go men and their penises men and their penises i mean it is shocking though because i think men for ages just didn't realize that that happened to women all the time well that still does you know on public transport and stuff i know and that's one of the great things about something like twitter where someone will say has a man ever masturbated at you? Which seems like an ordinary question, but it went crazy with people saying, yes, I was frolicking in the sea with my friend and a guy.

Yes, I was doing this. Yes, I was doing this. And again, a really poignant side of this whole thing was that the men going, what? Oh, my God. No, I don't believe this. And there were so many men really hurt and upset to think about it. Young men. It's very odd.

Yeah, it's very odd. I want to ask you about the actual business of writing though did you always find it easy yes yes I've always written from a very young person I mean I can't remember when I started writing but you know 10 or something like that but everything that I have has sort of been given to me. So my mum, who we've talked about a bit, who was a bit of a monkey and a drunk and all the rest of it. Drunky monkey. Had another side to her, which was she was incredibly creative and she read a lot and she loved theatre and film and plays.

So I grew up in this unorthodox, crazy childhood, but with wall-to-wall books and with a mother who wrote, who wrote poetry and read poetry and would go and see Shakespeare and would, you know, watch television and comedy and Spike Milligan and just sort of surrounded us with lovely, funny, creative things. So I thought writing was a normal thing to do. And I thought writing was a normal thing to do. So what might I compare it with? So other women of my age might sort of do a bit of sewing or might do a bit of gardening. For me, writing was a thing that or anything. But I did get myself into college while my boyfriend and I got me an A-level. He helped me. He read all the texts. Yeah. And I struggled through on my own.

I enrolled in this sort of night school. And so I did get into Thames Polytechnic to do this really brilliant degree. Which is where you met Stella. Yeah, I met Stella Heath. H-E-A-T-H. And we both signed up to do this course called Autobiography and Fiction, which meant we would read lots of biography and autobiography. So we'd read sort of I Am a Camera and that kind of thing. And then one of the essays we had to write was a bit of

autobiography. So I wrote a bit of autobiography. And of course, it was quite interesting because I'd had a really interesting childhood with a sort of gay dad and an alcoholic mother and of course it was perfect whereas everybody else was writing about you know uh crikey you know having their feet measured for Clark's shoes or how they you know moved house once so I thought oh gosh you know this is I'm really lucky I've got this this is a good thing to have, all this crazy stuff. And I got a really good mark for that essay. I mean, that's the important thing for all my other essays. I'd sort of get a C and they'd say, you know, you, you know, I don't think you've read enough Wordsworth, but this one I got an A and the tutor wrote, you know, this is, this is a very fine piece of writing. So I thought, okay, this is,

maybe I should do this. So I wrote more and more and more and more. And then Love, Nina came out by accident. And then when my publisher said, have you got anything else? I said, yeah, I actually have. Here you go. Oh, that's so great. I got loads. I got three novels already written.

Yeah. Pretty much. And when you're sitting down and writing nowadays, do you, I'm trying to write a book at the moment right and i think my brain is just very disorganized anyway and i find it hard to concentrate so i think of it as painting a wall you know i'm putting down a paragraph here or a line there and gradually they join up you know is it fiction no it's sort of memoirish okay so it's a memoir yeah it's like an you know you put on the undercoat

and then gradually you do another layer on top. But how does it work for you? I mean, are you writing fully formed paragraphs right the way through without stopping and then going back? Or do you just go line by line, back and forth, back and forth? I write splashes. So I write ideas. Something will come to me and I'll write it and that's how I've always done it until I got more serious and would see lots more writers and

go to more writer events and hear people talking and hear novelists talking and I've tried to change because I thought I'm doing it a bad way I need to plan more see the planning thing is a big deal then a lot of really good writers talk about they don't write a word until they've planned it so it's going to start there where Adam sits down on the green chair then he's going to go and make a lovely cup of tea and that takes the form of sort of bullet points does it yeah this is what they do my friend john writes a thing called a scenogram which obviously comes from films where you say we meet that person then that person then that happens in this bit and so it's all very planned out and i thought i should start doing that

so with my last book i did that and it completely fucked me up oh really yeah it with Paradise Lodge yeah it took me twice as long to do it I mean it's basically memoir I didn't have to make any of it up but by doing the planning and trying to crowbar a bit of plotting because I've been very lucky and had very good reviews for most of my book well all of my books have had very good reviews on the whole. I've been unbelievably lucky. But the one thing that sometimes comes out is there's not much plot. Now, I don't really care about plot. I'm not interested in plot.

I don't want to read plot. I want to read the stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't care whether it's just blotches. But because I sort of micro-respond to the bad stuff. So 100 people like it. One person says there's not much plot. What do you do?

You try and fix the thing that that one person complained about, which has really fucked me up, as I say. And I'm never going to do it like that again. So don't plan, Adam. Okay. It's much... Now, where do you write? Where does your best stuff come into your head?

Now you're asking. I don't know. I've only recently begun to have a more of a routine and actually sit down in the same place. Before, I was wandering around experimenting, like, is this going to work? One day I went out with a camping chair and sat in a field. You know, I was trying everything. And so, and what is working? Well, now working is... No, I mean, what's working for you? Oh, sorry. I thought you were asking me to define work.

No. What is working? Well, what seems to be working... Actually, it was a little bit helpful after speaking to David Sedaris, realising something that was quite obvious, I suppose, which was that it would be useful to read it out to a live audience. Now, that's brilliant because then he's honing it. Now, I don't call that planning.

That's sort of editing. That's editing. You're right. Yeah, yeah. It's editing. But it gives you confidence is what it does. And it also makes you realise that that chunk of sentences there in the middle that you sort of thought well you've got to have that because it's it's not as funny as the other stuff or but but it's doing a job yeah but

then when you read it out you think no it's not doing a job doesn't need to be there it there's got to be either either it's got to go or there's got to be a funnier way but then you get rattled sometimes when you're doing it live if there's a paragraph that doesn't get a load of laughs. Yeah. And you sort of think, is that an indication that it's redundant or is that an indication that it's just a more serious bit? Yeah. I mean, I... Yeah, yes, that's true.

Because it's funny everything. I mean, you're a comedian. Sort of. I'm a comedy writer, but my writing isn't, you know, 100% lols. So it's a very interesting one. No, but like Sedaris, every line of your stuff does a job. And very seldom is a line without any humour whatsoever. There's something funny in there.

Yeah. Being funny is very important to me. So I will, when I'm doing events, book book events i will go for the lols all the time and sometimes the audience don't really want that they want me to talk about the process of writing and so i sometimes get it wrong i wonder i slightly misjudged it last night there were quite a lot of folded arms you know when they when they fold their arms i do know but you never know sometimes you get those audience people, you know, there's always one in the front row who looks like they want to murder you,

like they've been dragged there and they hate you. But then you can do a gig and that person will come up and say, yeah, it was good afterwards or whatever. Well, those very, see, I have a lot of women. You probably have more men than I do. I have, my audiences are probably three quarters. Oh, right. Okay. Women. Yeah. Or more even actually. There audiences are probably three quarters women. Oh, right, okay. Yeah, or more even, actually.

There weren't many men last night. And the men always look very stern and serious, but they come up afterwards and they're really jolly. And I think they're just listening and... Resting bastard face. Exactly. It's exactly that. But if anyone smiles, I then just talk to the smiling face.

Yeah, exactly. So I'm just going, and then they come up afterwards and say, I really didn't like the thing you said. And I think, oh God, but you were smiling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somebody asked me in an interview, I think it was yesterday, you know, have you always been funny? And I find that really awkward and embarrassing. How do you cope with that? Do you go oh yes i love

being very funny because for me if someone says you're really funny or do you know have you always been funny it's exactly the same as someone saying how is it being pretty isn't it the same is it me or is that the truth of course it's true i think so how do you handle it saying to other comedians like i don't get the thing of american comedians coming off stage and telling you how hard they just crushed. It's like, mate, that's not your call, is it? Yeah, no. That's the audience's to say. Yeah, no, God, that's so true.

It's weird. It's like comedians who sort of don't smile in photographs and act like rock stars and things like that. I just think, OK, you know, each to his own. And there's room for every type of comedy. But I always thought comedy was about being silly and dispensing with vanity and dispensing with that level of confidence and careerism or whatever it is that makes you come off stage and say, yeah, I just destroyed that audience. It is amazing. It's hilarious because you must not take yourself too seriously. Yeah.

And I hate this sort of tears of a clown thing as well. That, you know, if you're really funny, if you, Adam Buxton, are really funny, that when Stella and I leave here and you're obviously sad that we've gone, that you're going to go all depressed and gloomy. I don't think you are. I think you're very funny all the time. Well, I'll cry for half an hour or so. Yeah, but that's fair enough enough i'll get on with it but um the thing of being put on the spot and saying uh oh yeah you're a comedian say something

funny is bad and it does happen like i meet sort of friends or like older people or i mean there's lots of people who don't know who i am so i'm often in situations where people say what do you do and i usually fudge it and I say something like oh well I'm a writer or something that is not going to lead to the question oh say something funny say something funny agony and you've got a funny bit in the new book about Lizzie being put on the spot so Lizzie is a dental nurse she's a dental nurse yes in this book in reasons to be cheerful and early on and she works for this monstrous character jp and you seem to have distilled everything that's worst about men

into this one horrible dentist guy were you yourself a dental nurse then yes oh right of course i was you were because there's some deep level dental stuff in here yeah which is very funny but this guy he he smokes ciggies like uh steve martin in little shop of horrors or whatever like your nightmare dentist but he's had complaints that his fingers smell like cigarettes so he gets his assistant to hold the cigarette for him feeds him the cigarette oh it's so horrible but the thing is about the feeding the cigarette i smoked as a young person as a teenager, and we didn't have many cigarettes.

And so it was quite normal for someone to say, give us a drag. And you wouldn't hand them the cigarette because they'd just walk off with it and you'd have lost your fag. So you'd say, all right then, and you'd hold the cigarette to their lips. Yeah, which is nice if you're friends.

Yeah, or the school bully right like the real bitch from hell who go oh it's dibby give us a drag and or in a leicester accent yeah and then then you'd hold the fag to their lips and they would take a really they grab your wrist and they go and they you'd see your cigarette just disappear so i when i was asked to feed cigarettes to this guy that thing of pulling it away too soon or holding it in too long and all that whole thing if he doesn't get the drag when he wants it he's going and then the the reason i mentioned it off the back of being told to perform tricks like a monkey if you're a comedian is that your character or you foolishly boasted that you could blow smoke rings impressive smoke rings and so um so they say oh

yeah go on blow some smoke rings so then you have to take a drag on his cigarette and he's wet the end he's wet the end do you remember wetting the end yes mate why did people no you hate... No, you hate... If anyone wet the end, you hate them, didn't you? They were the worst kind of bastard. When you were sharing a fag and you'd get it and you'd be like, oh, my God. What did you say? Because we used the phrase bum sucked. Right. We didn't.

Somebody else said this to me, bum sucked. And there's another phrase and I can't remember what it was. I can't believe the Americans say bum sucked. But I looked up bum sucked and the top definition in 2019 is to leave large passionate hickeys i love bites inside another male's rectum yeah well it wasn't that no it wasn't neither of us had any involvement any of that but there was a thing um i can't remember what it is i had a a feeling it was an Irish name that you O'Leary'd it or something. And I don't know what it was. I can't remember. But there are some phrases. But yes, the wet end. a drag on this sodden ciggy of this horrible guy that she's working for yeah in order to um do her

party piece and blow some smoke yeah yeah a ring within a ring right so i can do right okay so that was one of them i showed my kids it the other day they had a friend who had a vape uh-huh and uh they said you know can you really do and i And I can still do really brilliant rings. My rings, they come out quivering. They're amazing. And I used to be able to do it. Twisting on themselves. Yeah. Oh God. Yeah. Could you do them? No way. Yeah. It's like skimming a stone. I mean, you just, some people can just do it. And I am a, I'd love to still be able to smoke just to do them. But my, nobody says to me, you're a comedian, tell me a joke like you will get because i'm not seen as a comedian i'm seen as a writer but they know that i'm sort of you know dealing in funny yeah so they are very funny to me yeah so i get a lot of really extraordinary you know sure you must get

a lot of here's a funny thing for you yeah yeah and actually i mentioned this to sudaris i said to him because i know he writes his diary all the time he writes his diary every day and i said to him what from today will you put in your diary i asked him this on stage and he said a very funny thing which was about this woman who found an injured pigeon and a woman that we just met and she told us she'd found this injured pigeon and it was recuperating in her bath in the Premier Inn. As we spoke, it was there in the room waiting. I mean, he is extraordinary. And you've sort of alluded to the fact that you were lucky in some ways to have an unconventional upbringing and an eventful life.

And he seems to be the same to the extent that people often accuse him of making stuff up. And he says, why would I make this up? Why and how? How would you make it up? But also I said to him, so stuff ends up in your diary. Do you find people acting up to be in the diary? And he said, yes. And in fact, that's why the guy stole the potato.

Oh, because he wanted to be just a monkey. Yeah, and you know, I think, I seem to have a memory that David Sedaris wrote in his book, no way are you going to be in my diary. I think that happened. There you go. That makes sense. Yeah. And I remember when Alan Bennett first published his diaries,

I looked straight at the back to see if I'd be in. We want to be in each other's diaries. Of course. Were you? No. I've never been in any. I know. When Simon Pegg published his memoirs,

I went in and looked in the index as well. Joe was there and I wasn't. Oh, no. I thought, fuck thought fuck you no it's so bad i mean and there was only one line anyway it was like he was sort of referring to um both of us actually fleetingly oh yeah he he mentioned joe from 90s teddy bearists adam and joe and i was like oh my god i just slunk out of the bookshop so hard like a fucking worm yeah but you just we want to just be acknowledged we've been in these people's lives yeah you know so i'm very careful about that i like to acknowledge people a lot i'm i will bring

people in and i will say my friend john But then if it's not a thousand percent positive will you flag it for people before publication? Will you get in touch with old friends and say listen there's a character in this book and you might recognize a few things? Yeah I did with this last book because I was a dental nurse and I did work for a dentist and I slightly still know the son of the dentist that I worked for, who's exactly my age. And although this dentist wasn't, isn't the dentist in the book is much worse than the real dentist. Obviously, the real dentist was a 50 year old man in 1980. So he wasn't a saint. And I said, look, I've, you know, I hope you don't mind.

And I hope I've, you know, that it's it's fiction and I think he was a bit sad actually I do I think he felt a bit sad and said that you haven't haven't really done much to disguise him and he doesn't come out with much honor and I did feel like a bit of a heel and it's not fair because he's a lovely guy yeah it's so difficult isn't it difficult in the name of art yeah yeah you know and, I care much more about my mum. And, you know, I've had her, you know, stealing cheese and sleeping with vicars and trying to sleep with my own boyfriend. Yeah. The thing is, what you have to do is not make them quite as bad as they were, and then they're grateful.

Yeah. Well, I'm writing about my they were and then they're grateful. Yeah. Well, I'm writing about my dad who's no longer around. Yes. And I feel as if it's like open season. I can say what I want. You can. Don't you reckon? You can and you must.

I mean, I'm not throwing him under the bus, but I'm probably saying things that I wouldn't say to his face. No. Which is usually an indication that you shouldn't say something right no it's not because he he's not there to be sensitive about it and also he was your dad at that time and dads on the whole were very different then and so you're not just talking about him you're talking talking about the era. And I've slightly thrown my dad under. And, you know, I've had him, I've outed him. Although I think he didn't mind.

He's now dead. But when I, my first novel, which outed him, he was still alive and he was fine about it. But then he immediately died. He read the book and then died. It true honestly i that's so true but you know he'd had a very good innings yeah and i needed to make a living i haven't got a pension this is the thing i keep telling myself about my dad is that bottom line if the book does well he'll be fine yeah he'll be exactly the worst thing is it's like if it's like one star and no one buys it, then my dad would be going, typical Adam.

Typical, yes. Yeah, couldn't you have written a decent book? I think warts and all is best. I think it's more honest. Actually, as a writer, it's your duty to be real. I really feel that. And I think as long as you're not hurting somebody you're not hurting him because he's dead he's technically dead literally

dead and in every sense yes but listen I was going to talk to you about dentistry so you're a dental how long were you a dental nurse three years yeah was it three years 17 18 19 yeah because I got the job so that I could go and live in Leicester and not live in a tiny village anymore. And then I applied for a job in the Lady magazine to be a nanny in London because I sort of had enough of being in Leicester. So, yes, I think it was three years. Did you enjoy it? Not at all. It seems like a terrible job. It was such a bizarre thing to do. But it seemed like a huge achievement for me because I'd left school without a single O level.

And it seemed quite a decent job. But of course, I wasn't sort of learning anything. I wasn't sort of training to do anything. I was just there as a helper. Yeah. And I was very naughty with it all. And I was very sort of training to do anything. I was just there as a helper. Yeah. And I was very naughty with it all. And I was very sort of cheaty. And I'd sort of have my friends and sister in to give them a scale and polish.

And I was always doing bits of guerrilla dentistry. And I was always polishing my own teeth and, you know, picking around. Fluoride treatment. Yeah. And using the scaler to take my nail varnish off and and also i'd book in a family on a friday afternoon a huge family of six that work didn't exist and then on friday lunch time i'd have them ring up and cancel so that we could all have a couple of hours off nice so i was a bit naughty and it was a bit bleak and horrible, actually. It wasn't a particularly nice thing to do.

Did they have rubber dams back in those days? No. One of the things we had was I would have to hold in a sort of a suction thing. Yeah. Into the... I hate that. Yeah, so I'd have to hold it and I'd get bored. And actually, it was quite achy on the old arm.

So I'd be holding it and then by the end of it, I'd be sort of leaning on it. I'd be all my weight on the person's jaw. And it's maddening as well because at that point, you really want the nurse to do a good job with that suction machine. Yeah, you do. Because the buildup of the saliva is maddening. And then the patient would be sort of basically drowning. Yeah. And then you'd suction their tongue in by accident waterboarded yes it's not like and then suddenly

you'd suction in the sort of cheek and then you'd be leaning on it but the thing that used to get me every day and for three years this happened every day and i used to just think you cunt about the dentist i mean no offense poor man he was lovely but the patients would come in and he'd go hello hello come in sit down and then they'd have to open their mouth and he would just talk at them yeah and he'd say well i don't know about you mr jewick but i i found my lawns as dry as a haystack isn't yours and the poor patient would go oh and he'd just talk mostly crap with sort of injecting someone or drilling them,

chatting to them like a fucking hairdresser. And then they'd go... It was hilarious. I hate it when they do that. I'll see you next time. attention let's segue from that to the subject of thigh vaginas. Oh, yeah. Which you also write about briefly in the book. I was not familiar with the concept of, can you explain the thigh vagina? Have you ever encountered one, do you know?

No, I mean, I've never interacted with one, I don't believe, unless I was being very cleverly. You don't know. I've never interacted with one, I don't believe, unless I was being very cleverly... You don't know. Well, what Adam's talking about is in my book, my narrator talks about contraception and the fact that in the early 80s, women would start having serious relationships and they think about contraception. And it was a very strange thing, this taking this pill. And there was lots of stuff in the news and in the women's magazines about how you might suffer a loss of libido or you might gain a lot of weight or you might lose weight or you might become very spotty.

Or it's carcinogenic sometimes. Yes. And more serious side effects were talked about and, you know, as a possibility. And so, you know, going on the pill was kind of a mixed blessing. It was a rite of passage and you felt very grown up about it, but you might suddenly gain two stone or just never want to have sex. And so it's a really strange thing. And I had, I'm going to say it was a friend.

It wasn't me. had i'm going to say it was a friend it wasn't me she said i am not going to take a pill that does such a huge thing to my body i'm going to take a daily pill that's going to do this to me in order just so that somebody can ejaculate inside me i'm sorry i'm just not going to do that and she accidentally devised this method, it just happened once to her, which she'd accidentally, or just by chance, had arranged her inner thighs so that they produced sort of a makeshift vagina. So I think they were sort of having a dry ride.

Her and her boyfriend were having sort of a... What's a dry ride? Dry humping would be the concept. Yeah, non-penetrative frotting. So they were doing that. And then what sort of it led to maybe some clothes came off. And then somehow it must have felt to the man as if they were having intercourse. But it hadn't actually gone in.

It hadn't entered her vagina. Sure. It was just going in between two things. In between two rather slimy thighs slimy thighs i'm glad you're enjoying yourself stella stella's shaking her head yeah and so anyway and all was well and so you know that had happened and then so this friend of ours told us all about it and so anybody that had enough meat on their thighs could do this. And I remember one friend of mine did it, made her thigh vagina too tight. And the poor boy got a nosebleed.

Whether the two things were related, I don't know. But she talked about that. Of course, we had a good laugh about it. From the effort required to. Yeah. Or I think she might have tightened once it was in or something. It all got a little bit. And presumably this is all being done either under the covers or in darkness.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think if you were having a, you know, a long term relationship with somebody. I think you could spot the difference between thighs and actual. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also you had to be in a bit of a funny position. You had to be a bit cross-legged. It was all a bit odd. Adam, I hope you never have to experience it because it

must have been quite difficult i mean it would be at this point for my wife to suddenly switch to thigh vagina would be a disappointment well something new though you know i don't want to Don't rule it out. Wait, this is an advert for Squarespace. Every time I visit your website, I see success. Yes, success. The way that you look at the world makes the world want to say yes. It looks very professional. I love browsing your videos and pics and I don't want to stop.

And I'd like to access your members area and spend in your shop. These are the kinds of comments people will say about your website if you build it with Squarespace. Just visit squarespace.com slash Buxton for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, because you will want to launch, use the offer code BUXTON to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. So put the smile of success on your face with Squarespace. Yes. Continue. hey welcome back podcats thank you very much indeed to nina stibby for making the time to talk to me there very much enjoyed that hope you did too and maybe one day she will join me out

here in norfolk and take a walk with me and Rosie. What do you think of that, Rose? Oh yeah, that would be really great. And I really hope you talk a lot more about writing your book, which you probably still won't have finished by that time because you will have vanished so far up your own bum. There won't be enough light to write the book. There won't be enough light to write the book. Bye. Ooh. Hang on.

Was that you talking just now? Or was that the voice in my head? No, that was me talking. I was doing a bit of bants. I love you. I'm going gambling. Oh, good. I was worried I was going mad.

I love you too. Have a good gamble. By the way, Nina's son Alfie's favourite Beatles album is Abbey Road. I should have guessed that from Golden Slumbers, really, shouldn't I? That is a good album, especially that Side 2 medley. Although, one of the distressing things about life in the digital age is that when I'm listening to songs on shuffle on my phone, I've got a lot of songs from my library on my phone, and occasionally one of those Abbey Road medley tracks comes up. But then, of course, it just cuts off when I'm expecting. So I'll be

listening to Polythene Pam and I'll be all geared up to go she came in through the bathroom window like a beetle because i should have been in the beatles and uh it just cuts off oh rodis interruptus it's no good and actually what i've done is this is a boring story but i'm telling it anyway is i imported all the tracks from the Abbey Road Medley into Logic Pro and then rendered them out as a single file. So now if it pops up on my phone, I have the whole medley uninterrupted. No nasty cut-offs with random play. Good use of time buckles across all the important things in life I see.

Yes, thank you very much for noticing. Speaking of good use of time, I saw what I considered to be a great film the other day. Apollo 11. New documentary about the Apollo 11 moon landings. Because 50 years ago, nearly, YT was on the moon, of course. A rat-dun bit my sister Nelly was on the moon, of course. A rat done bit my sister Nell, with Whitey on the moon.

Her face and arms began to swell, and Whitey's on the moon. I can't pay no doctor bill, but Whitey's on the moon. Ten years from now I'll be paying still, while Whitey's on the moon. They used that, that's Gil Scott Heron, Whitey's on the moon, and they used it in the film First Man Heron. Whitey's on the moon. And they used it in the film First Man, didn't they, I think, to acknowledge the fact that, you know, the moon landings were by no means uncontroversial in the late 60s, many people at the time and since

have felt that it was a colossal waste of money and resources. While there were so many other problems that needed dealing with on Earth. I don't know. I love space. And many other positive things have come out of the moon landings, if you can rationalise all that and concentrate on the human achievement and the courage, the sheer insanity of the astro spacemen. Sitting on the rocket in this documentary, they've dug out a load of new 70 millimeter footage from the time for this thing and, you know, cleaned it all up and fuckerized it.

And it looks like a modern feature film. It looks as if it was just shot recently. You have to keep reminding yourself that this footage was shot in 1969. And I've seen a lot of documentaries about the moon landings because, you know, I'm a sad man. I want to run away from my responsibilities and float in space. I mean, there's anything. But this new documentary is the best one I've seen seen it knocks the other ones into a cocked hat the worst type of hat imagine if someone bought you a cocked hat fucking you got me a cocked hat

i wanted a homburg is that a hat anyway i like a lot of the other ones. For All Mankind is good, with the Brian Eno music on. And I liked First Man, but this is real. This is real footage. Or is it? Or is it? Oh, yes. Very convenient.

They just happened to dig up a load of lovely hd footage that's suddenly turned up just as the 50th anniversary rolls around have you ever seen actual footage from the 60s it doesn't look like that it's very grainy it's badly scratched the color's all shit and yet this footage just happens to be lovely and pristine oh how convenient i wonder why could it be that it was shot last year on 28k cameras and i can't even be bothered to make the footage look old because people are still buying into this crap about people landing on the moon could that be the reason and don't get me started on the moon the moon a shit model that someone's hanging there to try and distract us from what's really going on what's really important which is that the game of thrones production team

has kept all the money that they should have spent on hiring decent writers for the last season good fly past, Rose. They don't deal with any of those issues in the Apollo 11 documentary, but I still liked it, and I do recommend it. Rosie! Come on!

Hey! All right, sweet girl. Let's head back, shall we? Thanks to Seamus Murphy Mitchell, as ever, without whom making these podcasts would be a lot more difficult. And thanks very much indeed to Matt Lamont for additional editing on this episode. Thanks, Matt. And thanks very much to ACAST for their continued hard work in support of this podcast. I appreciate it. All right.

Listen, hope things go well this week. You know, be careful and keep it together. And until next time you visit myself and Rose, remember, please please that I love you. Bye! Thank you. Bye. Thank you.