THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.95 - JOHN GRANT

Episode Date: June 2, 2019

Adam talks with American musician John Grant about travel stress, island survival, languages, favourite documentaries, John's last record 'Love Is Magic' (2018), horror films and favourite soundtracks, and growing up gay in a religious American family.This week's outro includes a visit from 'Country Man' presenter Monty Buggershop-Hooty who brings you some 'Sounds Of The Summer'.Visit the Adam Buxton app and open the Bonus Audio section for more music chat with John and accompanying Spotify playlist.The conversation was recorded in London in October 2018Thanks to Anneka Myson for additional editing and Seamus Murphy-Mitchel for production support.RELATED LINKSJOHN GRANT - HE'S GOT HIS MOTHER'S HIPS (MUSIC VIDEO)'GREY GARDENS' DOCUMENTARY (1975) TRAILER'SALESMAN' DOCUMENTARY (1969)'WORLD AT WAR' (EPISODE 1) (1973)'SHOCK OF THE NEW' (EPISODE 1) (1980)MINUTEMEN - 'WE JAM ECONO' DOCUMENTARY (2005)DAVID SHIRE - 'THE CONVERSATION' SCORENPR STORY ABOUT DAVID SHIRE'S ORIGINAL APOCALYPSE NOW SCORE (5 MINS)STRAIGHT JACKET by MATTHEW TODD (2017)'EDUCATED' by TARA WESTOVER (2018) (GUARDIAN REVIEW) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human folk Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan. Hey, how you doing, podcats? Adam Buxton here.

It is a very beautiful day. At the beginning of June 2019, it's warm, not to say hot. The sun is out, the fields are full of all like crops and shit. The marijuana plants have sprung up to waist height in just the last two weeks. Rosie, my best dog friend, is up ahead, bouncing in the long grass. She's probably acquiring some new tick friends. That'll be fun for us to deal with later on. But listen, let me tell you about my guest for podcast number 95, the American musician John Grant. Finally buckles, you idiot! Some John Grant fans will no doubt be saying,

because I think John posted a picture of me and him after we recorded this conversation back in October of last year, 2018. But, well, I like to let these conversations mature for months, sometimes years, before putting them out, it has to feel like the right time. And now feels like the right time for John Grant. Here's a few John facts. John, currently aged 50, grew up in an Orthodox Methodist household in Michigan, Midwestern America, up near Canada and those lakes. And as you'll hear towards the end of our conversation, that religious upbringing contributed to an early sense of unease. Wow, that's a very loud interjection there from the bird. I was saying, bird, that that early religious upbringing contributed to a sense of unease about John's sexuality. Listen, if you've got a problem with this intro,

then I'd really appreciate it if you talked to me about it afterwards. But I'm just trying to can't deal with those very aggressive tweets. Have we established that it contributed to an early sense of unease about his sexuality, which also got him bullied at high school and has been a recurring theme on his solo albums? Before becoming a solo artist, John was a founding member of Denver band The Zars, who released five records over a ten-year span, their latest being 2004's Goodbye,

by which time John was the last remaining original member. His time with the Tsars was marked by bouts of anxiety and depression, as well as alcohol and drug abuse, some of which John addressed on his first solo album, 2010's pole-topping, award-winning Queen of Denmark. I met John just after the release of solo album number four, Love is Magic, back in October, as I said, of last year, 2018. And after talking about travel stress, because my train from Norwich to London was very badly delayed, we discussed why John wouldn't like to be on an island with Bear Grylls,

cannibalism, languages, John speaks several, including Icelandic, having lived in Reykjavik since 2012. We talked about favourite documentaries, synthesizers, horror films, favourite soundtracks, and the ongoing challenges that face gay people in 2019. John also told me about some of his favorite electronic music. His last album was made with electronic artist Benj and former Cabaret Voltaire member Stephen Mallander. But that was quite a deep level detour of interest,

mainly to super nerds. So what I've done is put it in the bonus audio section of the Adam Buxton app where you can hear it completely free. I also put together a Spotify playlist of much of the music that John mentions in that bonus audio chunk. And you'll be able to find a link to the playlist on the same page. I'm very grateful to Really Quite Something Limited for their ongoing work on that app. Hope you can support it. But our conversation began with me hastily setting up mics, still quite flustered from my train delay trauma, and that I think is the reason that I misunderstood the very first thing John said to me, as you will hear. Oh, here's Rose.

Whoa, good panting. Back with some sounds of the summery countryside at the end, but right now, here we go! Ramble chat, let's have a ramble chat We'll focus first on this, then concentrate on that Ramble Chat You're quite unharried for someone who's... Yeah, do you reckon? Yeah. I feel quite her suit.

Are you reckon? Yeah. I feel quite hirsute. Oh. Are you hairy? No, you are hirsute, but un-hairied, as in... Oh, un... I thought you said you look quite un-hairy. No. That was funny. I was thinking I've never been called un-hairy before.

I'm like a monkey man. What a curious salutation. I'm feeling particularly monkey like today because i've just arrived in london after a trying train journey from norfolk so a journey that should have taken two hours two and a half hours door to door ended up taking five what about you how what are you like when you're traveling just fall apart like i was having a great trip the other day on, well, I mean, I'd had a really long day of interviews. And then I was booked to go straight to the Eurostar in Paris, you know, from the long day of interviews, and then straight into the train station, had no idea where to go,

or what I was supposed to do about a ticket, or, you know, can't get the ticket, can't get anything. And I get on the train after a particularly nice exchange with the British border guard in Paris. Are you saying that in an ironical way? I'm not. I'm saying it in a totally sincere way. Because I had a piece of paper saying I'm invited to the Jules Holland show. And he was this super lovely man who when he saw the name Jules Holland, he says, And he was this super lovely man who, when he saw the name Jules Holland, he says, oh, you're invited to be on the Jules Holland show, I see. Well, then that means, and he starts rattling off this list of who I must be. He's like telling me who I am. He's like, well, then you will have reached a place in your career where you are doing things on a unique level that have led to led to you being invited to be on this show because you know they don't invite anyone to be on that

show it is a great honor Jules is a national treasure and I couldn't say I I have to say I couldn't possibly agree more yeah it is it's absolutely true very much but I I just didn't expect him to be so schooled in in these. Yeah. Of course, he checked my passport, you know, in case his boss is listening. But he was more interested in the fact that, you know, that I was going to be on Jules Holland. Yeah. Have you done that show before? Yeah. This was the fourth time.

Oh, okay. You're a veteran. Yeah. I got to sit and talk with Jules this time. Did you? Yes. You got the piano chat? Yes.

How was Jules on good chatty form? Because sometimes Jules is a bit like a rabbit in the headlights when he sits down to talk to a legend. Yeah. Well, I mean he wasn't doing that in this case, so Wow. He was lovely. Yeah. Did you do some boogie woogie?

No. No, okay. Although I could have done a little there's this boogie-woogie version of Flight of the Bumblebee with a really cool boogie-woogie bass line. It's very strange and cool. I bet Jules can play that. I bet he has played it. He probably wrote it.

He probably arranged that thing. Yeah. Am I allowed to use... You do what you want, mate. Okay. Swear it up. He probably arranged that motherfucker. He probably fucking arranged that shit bag.

That's right. That fucking cunt. That was probably fucking Jules. Yeah, right? Yeah. Oh, bless you. Thank you. Anyway, so your travel story.

Yes. I'm leaving on the Eurostar from Paris to come to London. I'm going to be in, you know, sort of late-ish evening, but nice and comfortable. And then I have the evening to myself and the day ahead of me tomorrow. An hour, hour and a half into the trip, they say, computer doesn't work anymore. We've got to go back to Paris. So the train stops for 45 minutes.

In the tunnel? No, because we can't go into the tunnel. Oh, you can't go in. Because the computer's broke somewhere. We're going to take you back to Paris and put you on another train. So it's just... And I just, I kept it together, but I'm not the guy that keeps it together. I just, I sort of, I do my best for a long time.

I try to be kind and everything. There were a lot of us commiserating, having a good time with it and just sort of... Shaking your heads. Yeah. So there were other people doing it. Otherwise, I probably... If I feel like nobody is taking notice, then I will say something and fall apart a little bit more publicly. Because it's like, well, somebody's got to acknowledge this horror. Yesterday I got on a flight, Iceland Air, that airline, and all the airlines, they have a new plane that has an even smaller seat

in economy, and they've stuffed three on each side in a small plane. They've put three seats where there used to be two. And they've put an even smaller corridor so that when the flight attendant was doing the safety briefing, they were hitting me in the head the whole time with the life jacket and all of the implements that they were demonstrating.

Because they're basically sitting in your fucking lap while they're doing their demonstration. And they can't go by you without hitting you in the fucking head. Yeah. I was shaking my head for three fucking hours throughout the entire journey, just going, somebody has to make them pay. I mean, this can't be even legal. You would not be able to get down the corridor in case of an emergency. You wouldn't be able to. And the cart just barely fits in that corridor now.

And you can see how extreme it is when the corridor changes from the first class section to the economy section. It goes from this and then there's a line showing how it narrows to nothing. Yeah. Everybody that walks by you hits you in the head. You know, it's not, there's no way they can't. I'm fucking infuriated by that shit. Yeah. I looked back into the plane.

I was just like, are you just a fat cunt? Maybe you're just a fat cunt who who you know just needs to lose weight and then i look back into the plane and it's like everybody you know the seat is covers this much of you yeah and then your shoulders and your arms hang over the edge so you know how much trouble that's causing because everybody's elbowing each other you You know, nobody can... Right, doing the passive-aggressive territory grab for the armrest. They're just making what is already... I mean, flying these days, taking the plane is basically now the new bus, right? Because everybody can get on an airplane. So they're taking what is already a horrible, horrifying, stressful thing.

Because the airport, if you can make it through the airport these days without losing your shit you're doing pretty well but then now you get on the plane and it's still it's worse than ever well it's crazy isn't it because it's running completely counter to what should be happening which is people being gradually discouraged to fly because it's not good for the planet. And for all sorts of reasons, it would be great if we traveled less. And instead, they're just making it cheaper and cheaper and cheaper by making it more and more of an uncomfortable experience, as you've just described. Or at the other end of it, they're keeping the whole thing running and boosting their profits by introducing these

sort of insane first class experiences yes that are totally out of the grasp of any normal people but are just available to oligarchs and billionaires and and um hollywood actors yeah basically what the airlines are doing is fueling class-based hatred. Yeah. They are. Me and my friend Joe, Joe is a film director. Yeah. And one of the ideas... So he's probably being massaged in business class as we speak. Mate, probably not business class. I think SAG rules for American actors is that you,

if you're doing film business in Hollywood, they have to fly you first class. But the thing is, British Airways doesn't even have first class on a lot of their destinations. Oh, yeah? Yeah, because there aren't enough people going to those destinations right who can afford god forbid they should just create one big class that is comfortable for everybody the way it used to be my mother used to be my mom was a stewardess on boac that's how she met my dad but in those days she was reminiscing the other day in fact so she was flying what in the

60s late 50s and it was a big deal everyone got dressed up it was like going to the theater or something and the standard class was more luxurious than a first class would be today was incredible yeah and the thing i mentioned joe because at one point we were talking about a film idea i mean it's a perfect place to set a film in a way I'm surprised that there aren't more films set on planes because that there is that microcosm of class tension there yeah and it's so nakedly laid bare to the extent that you're sat there in your nasty standard class seat if you're in standard class and maybe you might try and use

the toilet in first class or even business class no no no no you get pushed back into your class the curtain goes across yeah you know get back into the stables boy that's right i mean i don't fly very often and i have to confess that whenever i can afford to, I'll get as far up the front of the plane as I can. Yeah, because it's just a shit show back there. Yeah, mate. I mean, absolutely. Abso-fucking-lutely. We've got to buy it.

Come on, chaps. We've got to buy some more John Grant albums so we can. But would you consider that a good use of your money to fly more luxuriously? No, but that wouldn't stop me from doing it. Yeah. I love being pampered in business class. It doesn't happen very often. I got to fly business class from Japan.

I have to be able to lie down if I'm going to travel like that and then have to perform right away. Yeah. I can't sleep sitting up like every fucking cunt that is surrounding me. You know? As soon as their ass hits the seat,

you just hear the most horrible snoring you've ever heard. It sounds like the fucking death rattle. Snoring slash farting, just expulsion of wind from every orifice. Yes. But maybe they're taking pills. That's what a lot of travelers do, isn't it? That's true. That's true. Do you get anxious?

I do have some Xanax. Right. I mean, I believe I'm right in saying that you take medication anyway. Is that right for? Yeah. I mean, but I don't know whether it's doing anything for me. I mean, I started taking an antidepressant in 1994. Yeah. The year it came out, the stuff called Paxil, paroxetine. And the reason that I'm still on it is because i never seem to have enough time to

get off of it because you have to come off of it very gradually because the side effects of coming off of it you get this thing called the zaps and anybody who's on that medication will know what i'm talking about a lot of them have this thing where the as you're coming off of it as it's coming out of your system it feels like when you turn your head it feels like your brain is being zapped by a lightning bolt it doesn't hurt but it it feels like you're being rebooted like when you trap a nerve is it yeah it's very strange like you turn your head and you just feel like this whoosh in your head of like a oh and it's it's really unsettling and it's horrible it's a horrible feeling um but i i've been on that drug since 1994 so how long is that that's 24 years 24 great years 24 amazing years it did it did very much help

me in the beginning i mean it was very very helpful but i i also went out and mixed it with you know huge amounts of alcohol that's what i read well that's kind of what i was thinking when i brought it up because i was wondering if you have to be careful what other medication you take with it. I mean, nobody even says anything to you. The doctor that gave it to me, he was just giving me his samples. He was like, here, try this. He wasn't a psychologist. You know, he'd had one session with me and and he just gave me this stuff and and I'm still on it 24 years later.

Yeah. And then at one point I was at the maximum dose of like 80 milligrams of the stuff. And I came down to 60. But yeah, I was taking four of those, four 20s. And now I'm taking two 30s. That seems to be good for me. I know that if I forget to take it one day, if you just forget it once, it has a short shelf life. So it comes out of your system fairly quickly.

But it's dangerous to go off of it, you know, cold turkey. And so if you're going to come off, you have to do it gradually. But like I said, you get those head zaps if you forget to take it just one day. What would be the difference to you temperamentally and mentally when you come off that? I don't know. It feels sort of like being really, really hungry. When I get hungry, I just turn into an infant, you know? And mentally when you come off that? I don't know. It feels sort of like being really, really hungry. When I get hungry, I just turn into an infant, you know?

Yeah. An angry, temperamental infant. That's like me most of the time. Especially when I'm traveling, though. Yeah. Do you ever watch Bear Grylls' Celebrity Island? No, I can't. Or any of the islands? The hatred and resentment is too severe.

It's not the luxury one. They're on... No, just him. Oh, him. Right. Okay. What's your problem with grills? Just too hot, too positive, too well-balanced, too...

The men that fit into the mold that you're supposed to fit into, the men who are masculine the way that I was tortured for not being, I resent them, of course. It's childish. And I don't mean that, you know, with my mind, I know that's ridiculous and I try not to do that. But I know that in my subconscious and when you're projecting your past onto the, which I do, and I think a lot of people do that,

I resent people who I feel have been able to just feel comfortable in their own skin because they were doing in quotation in air quotes the right thing and being the right way so when i see people like him on tv i you know just sort of you know fantasize about them sexually while loathing them at the same time and that's a that's a really horrible feeling that's a horrible shame inducing feeling yeah is one feeding the other yeah well i bring him up because uh i watch the island i'm kind of obsessed by it and this is a reality show in which people are dropped off on an island off the coast of Panama, and they have to survive for four weeks, right? Yeah.

But the whole thing is really about building a shelter, finding water, and then finding food. Yeah. I'd be fucked. Yeah, right. Don't you reckon? I would too. And they have to do it all pretty much for real.

Like they get given knives and a couple of fishing lines, literally just pieces of string with a hook on the end yes uh the is this the naked version or the clothed version no they're clothed there is some you know they get their clothes off every now and again yeah the one i'm watching at the moment actually with eric roberts in it and uh the guy from spandau ballet and various other people they've been wandering around naked a little bit but yeah i mean it will be mixed with hardcore porn at some point oh we do know that yeah there'll be the survival aspect and then the close-up penetration shots starving you know starving and fucking yeah grubs you know digging for grubs under the bark of trees and then

which is also very that sexy wriggle that wriggle. But they basically start starving very quickly, you know, because there's nothing out there except coconuts and winkles. Not those. Winkles. They might get lucky and catch some fish. The only other food sources available to them are maybe some turkeys running around. There's a pig, like a wild boar. Yeah.

And increasingly, there's people on the island who are not comfortable with killing any of those things. They're okay with fish. Like, pretty much everyone hates fish. Yeah, yeah. Fuck the fish. Yeah, yeah. Having too much fun, they are. Yeah.

Although I don't think Paul McCartney is. I think Paul McCartney wouldn't kill a fish. Wouldn't? No. Don't think so. Anyway. Morrissey wouldn't Paul McCartney wouldn't kill a fish. Wouldn't? No. Don't think so. Morrissey wouldn't either, would he? You reckon? No, probably not.

Absolutely not. No, no. But the one I was watching the other day, they were debating. As far as I could tell, they accidentally caught a pig. Well, they caught a pig and then there was one guy who said, there's no way we're killing this pig. Right. And so he put a rope around the pig's

neck and they tied it and they thought they would keep it as a pet and then they woke up in the morning that pig had strangled itself to death and so this guy was absolutely beside himself and then the rest of the camp were like well the pig's dead now so we could have some pig sandwiches and bacon and things i mean it will start to decompose at some point. That is exactly right. It's what the pig would have wanted, maybe. It's what the pig would have wanted. But the guy was just like, they have a vote.

Are we going to eat the pig? And the guy is so upset that they can't face eating the pig because it would just cause this guy too much emotional pain. So they have to give the pig a sea funeral send it out to sea on a raft because he won't he won't have it because he won't have it no the the sad part is that that would not happen with a human it would be consumed immediately well that's the thing exactly the football players in the andes Exactly It's like, come on, mate Come on, yeah

Sandwich time Yeah, yeah They would be fine with that I mean, wouldn't you? If someone wanted to eat you? I mean, sure, go for it Exactly, I mean It's your funeral

And you don't know anyway Yeah I mean, riddled with disease and, you know And psychotropic drugs You know, good luck with that That would be my last revenge Yeah And psychotropic drugs. Good luck with that. That would be my last revenge. Yeah.

Well, no, maybe their moods would suddenly become much more enhanced. Perhaps. John was absolutely delicious. Plus, I feel much less anxious. But I am diseased. But I do feel a bit diseased. What would be the things they would catch from you? HIV. Oh, yes, you are hiv positive yeah

yeah regret uh-huh very poisonous what's the worst of your ailments then physical and mental what's the one that if you could wave a wand and get rid of one of them self-pity right i'd get rid of that i mean nobody nobody likes to suffer from that ever, right? But everyone does it. I wouldn't ever want to have any of that. I mean, I try and keep that to a minimum. And then I'd get rid of the HIV. Get rid of that.

What impact day-to-day does that have on your life? I don't really know. I mean, I take the drugs. I don't know what those drugs do to you. You know, I mean, who knows what side effects from which drug actually manifest and in what way if they manifest in the way that

the way it's described on the little sheet on the little tome that comes with you know with the drug I don't feel the same as I used to I feel physically yeah I feel I feel like there's weird stuff going on

but I can't really... And I know those HIV drugs, I know they're hard on your liver and your kidney over the course of time. People often have to switch drugs or stop for a while to give their kidneys and liver a break. Does it frighten you thinking of what's going on inside you? Not really. No. I mean, we're all just rotting off our skeletons anyway, you know, slowly. Yeah. No, I really don't. I don't worry about that. It's funny when I think about the sheer numbers of people who have died, are dying or will die. I feel strangely very

comforted by that. It's funny because one wants to think of oneself as unique and as mattering. But I feel really comforted by the fact that billions have gone before me. And that you just, you don't get to get away from it. And it's probably going to be painful. Might not be, you might get lucky and go in your sleep. Probably shouldn't say this on air in case we do get into a 1984 style regime, where they have a room for your special fears you know but um i wouldn't like to be completely sober and torn apart by a pack of hyenas okay that would probably be my least favorite really seriously is that your well have you seen the meat we've got terrible manners No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, poncy design. Oh, no way. And it's all soft. An eye mask is a great thing, don't you reckon?

It is an amazing thing. Yeah. I was just looking at them online two days ago. Everything happened two days ago, even though it was three years ago. Wow. Is that comfy? It's incredible. Wow, thank you so much, Adam.

Oh, you're welcome. That's an incredible gift. That's an incredibly insightful and revealing gift. I'm so glad you like it. There's times when you just want to go to sleep and you just want no light. And this fits into my Art Deco, Art Nouveau love as well, this motif here. Oh, good. And the other part of your gift is a hard drive with some of my favorite

documentaries on it so i didn't i didn't put any narrative films on there because i was thinking because i um assumed that you were i'm a huge fan of documentaries i've said that on several oh maybe that's what i picked up on great all sorts of different documentaries i mean i love all the herzog stuff have you seen the one about Herzog, Burden of Dreams, when he's making Fitzcarraldo? Is that the one where they drag the ship up the hill? Yeah. And Klaus Skinski's behaving like a fucking madman in it. I've heard some of the actual arguing

between the two of them in German. Yeah. Yeah. Which is linguistically interesting for me. Yes. You are, to me, a man with superpowers because you can speak six languages including english yeah i mean i would say four i speak four quite well yeah which are german

russian icelandic and my spanish is quite good as well but it needs i'm quite good at french but it just needs to be taken to the next level i need to go and do a french course and get a little bit more but i'd like to sort of massage that into usefulness the french skills so you could watch a french film and you would understand all of it no i mean you know when people are speaking fast and colloquially i mean you need to have lived in that society for a decent amount of time but i But I do understand a lot. So I'm definitely not fluent in French, but I'm quite good at languages. Are you fluent in Russian? Yeah.

How'd you get to be fluent in Russian? Well, I went to school for that. Ah, okay. Yeah. I mean, it's certainly rusty, but I spend all my time, all my spare time, working on these languages. It's sort of a lifestyle thing. I'm constantly looking up words. So my vocabulary is huge in these languages. When you don't live in the country, it's, of course, difficult to keep up native-level fluency because you don't use the language on a daily basis.

And plus, Icelandic sort of leaves little room for anything else. How do you mean? Well, it's so complicated and so difficult. What other language is it most like? It's very similar to German, but it's a mixture of German and Scandinavian grammar. Right. You know, where they...

But, you know, in Icelandic, so you have 16 forms for every noun, which is, you know, insane. Of course, the Finnish... That's too many forms. Finnish is even more difficult. Finnish, Hungarian... Those languages are even more difficult than Icelandic. But Icelandic is one of the hardest languages for English speakers to learn in the world.

But it's a fascinating language. It's sort of been stewing in its own juices on that little island for a thousand years. So it's like if English hadn't progressed, you know, the old, if we still had the Beowulf English. Yeah, sort of Chaucerian type. Yeah. So is Icelandic, is it still evolving? Are there a lot of neologisms in Icelandic?

Yeah, I mean, it's under severe attack because of the internet. Okay. I mean, as soon as the internet came into being, that has changed everything. So does that just bring in lots of Americanisms? Yeah. Right. I mean, as soon as the internet came into being, that has changed everything. So does that just bring in lots of Americanisms? Yeah. Right.

I mean, English is having its way, having its way with Russian. Russian is absolutely lousy with neologisms from American and from the business world. And it's really vile. It is. It's absolutely vile because, well, I don't need to explain it to you. You know why it's vile. It is. It's absolutely vile. Because, well, I don't need to explain it to you. You know why it's vile. It's just changing everything. And, you know, a lot of linguists would say, oh, quit whining about it. But because languages are living things that are constantly changing and evolving. But we've never seen them evolving and changing like they're doing now as a result of

English. I mean, this is unprecedented what's happening to languages now. And I know that in Iceland, there are young kids who can think of the word in English before they can think of the word in Icelandic, because they're fluent in English from a yearly age. They get it in school from a young age, but they're also inundated from the music content on internet. um television also it matters where the country you're from if they dub english language programming then those people aren't as good at english as people where they do not dub programming right and they don't dub it in scandinavia whereas in places like spain and germany and italy and you can hear it in the

accent of the people when they speak English because people who have access to the original, they speak it fluently and with very little accent quite often. But Icelandic has been a very humbling experience because I suppose I was 17, 18, 19 when I was getting into German and Russian. You know, you've got this moist little sponge in your cranium at that point. And now it's not, you know, 30 years later, it's not the same. It's a bit more leathery.

It's a bit more leathery. Yeah, not as malleable. Less porous. Less porous. Yeah. I agree with you. Like, I find myself quite resistant to all sorts of bits of stupid stuff that my children bring back with them linguistically but then sometimes i think well maybe this is just a bit like people complaining that high streets are all looking the same you know it's just a factor of globalism yeah and actually you've got it doesn't mean we can't complain about it i suppose not no but i suppose

the thing is that maybe you have to give up certain things yes it would be nice if you could keep absolutely everything about the old world that was great but actually the more important thing isn't it is to get rid of the things that were shit and to try and create a world that's better for more people and maybe the price you pay for that is some of those beautiful high streets that the character of them is gone and maybe some of those beautiful bits of language now have been sacrificed because yeah it's easier for everyone to understand each other and you know what i mean yeah i don't like it i'm going to continue to complain about it so look let me show you what i've got on this um hard drive that is that is an amazing gift adam thank you no not

at all and you will have seen a lot of these but some of the like gray gardens have you seen that yeah yeah of course um amazing well i have salesman sales well that's amazing the bible salesman yeah amazing um the mazels brothers that was the year I was born. Was it? 68. Oh, there you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. World at War classic documentary series voiced by Laurence Olivier, I believe. Shock of the New. Have you ever seen that? It's a brilliant series about art. No, I haven't.

Presented by Robert Hughes, who's this Australian art critic. Incredibly articulate and sort of pompous, but brilliant. And it was back in the old days when they made documentaries and every single line was shot in a different country. So here's Robert Hughes standing in front of the pyramids. And for the next line, he's going to be in front of the Eiffel Tower talking about impressionism. Right. It was one of those, you know, Fugazi. Do you like them? I don't know one of those you know fugazi do you like them i don't know so you know the band i'm familiar with them i know i'm supposed to like them but i i've never really right taken the time to find out whether i do or not well this might be the the thing that

either gets you in or turns you off instrument it's called and it's it's less of a documentary and more of just a kind of compilation of performances. But the performances are all pretty amazingly compelling. And I saw, you know, Grimes, who's going out with Elon Musk now, the artist. Really? Or at least she was earlier this year. Anyway, she was tweeting about it, and I thought, oh, yeah, I'll give that a go. It's really good. Oh, cool.

There's some amazing stuff. Yeah, I'd like to know about them. I know a lot of people who, to know about them i know i know a lot of people who you know claim that you know that that's their band yeah i mean i've never it's a religion sort of yeah yeah because they're so sort of fundamentalist aren't they and very politically engaged and all that kind of thing but the music is very good as well um and the minute men do you like the minute men? I've never really listened to them. Oh, God, this is such a good doc.

They're such amazing personalities as well. They're sort of like hippie punks. Right. They're really cool. They're interesting. I mean, people have been talking to me about them since, you know, Shep was a pup, as my father would say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Again, this might be the thing.

It's a really nicely put together doc. We jam a conno. Anyway, I won't just list everything It's a really nicely put together doc, We Jam Econo. Anyway, I won't just list everything that's on there, but I hope you enjoy some of it. It's incredible. I can take it with you on tour. Wow. Thank you so much.

Not at all. It's so nice of you to do this. Very nice to meet you. Oh, it's a pleasure. We're halfway through the podcast. I think it's going really great. The conversation's flowing like it would between a geezer and his mate. All right, mate.

Hello, geezer. I'm pleased to see you. There's so much chemistry. It's like a science lab of talking. I'm interested in what you said. Thank you. There's fun chat and there's deep chat. It's like Chris Evans is meeting Stephen Hawking. I'm interested in what you said. Thank you. There's fun chat and there's deep chat. It's like Chris Evans is meeting Stephen Hawking.

Are you recording at the moment or have you just finished recording? No, I'm just about to put on an album in two days. Right. It comes out on the 12th. April's when the album was completely finished. Yeah, and it took me like 10 months to a year to do this one. But I was also working at the same time, you know, doing the festival and hall that I was involved in putting together,

curating. I really don't like that word. Well, especially when it's applied to a menu in a restaurant. Yeah. This menu curated by. I've never seen that. People curating menus oh yes oh god see it all the time in new york curated by ronald mcdonald

seriously today i have chosen the bits of chicken covered with not not really breadcrumbs i don't know how you would describe it wow sing. Singed flesh. Your French accent is very... Accurate. Accurate. How do you go about... I mean, I just bored myself with this question before I'd even... I'd like to hear it.

I'm intrigued now. How do you go about putting together a new album, John? Is it a question of thinking of a new direction you want to go in, or do you just build up a load of songs and think, oh, I've got enough songs for an album now? Well, in this case, it was a conscious decision to go in and start writing. I chose to go work with Benj from the group Wrangler. I'd been working with him and Stephen Mallender from Cabaret Voltaire

and Phil Winter of Tongue. They play together as a band called Wrangler. I'd been working with him and Stephen Mallender from Cabaret Voltaire and Phil Winter of Tongue. They played together as a band called Wrangler, the three of them, and then the four of us did a project together. And then I realized that I had to work in that studio. Where's their studio? In Cornwall. Oh, okay. Yeah, which is such a stunning part of the world.

Yeah. So I was basically just, I was with my friend Benj, my new friend Benj, getting to know him and playing with all these modular synths and old vintage synths which has um always been a huge dream of mine to do something like that so i i was just writing on these these instruments and he was helping me you know get the sounds that i that i wanted he's a mastermind when it comes to modular synthesis. Explain modular. Well, modular synthesis, you have to tell the thing how to think. You know, it doesn't have...

Presets. It doesn't have presets, yeah. And you do it with wires by pulling, like you're at a switchboard, you know, pulling wires out of holes and putting them in other holes. Oh, like a big old Moog or Moog or whatever. Exactly. He does have an original 3C Moog. I got into saying moog for a while but i've gone back to moog it's too pretentious isn't it even if it's the right pronunciation yeah i don't think come on

mate it's double o g yeah save moog yeah yeah yeah i i that's how i'm feeling about it um this particular moog this 3c was the first thing that Robert made, one of the first instruments he made. And I know that the cabinet of this particular instrument, because Ben met Robert and told him about the machine that he had, the 3C, and Robert said, the cabinet from that is made from trees in my backyard. Oh, wow.

Which is amazing. Yeah. He also has a clap trap that he bought from chris carter you know of chris and cozy and throwing gristle what's a clap trap it's a just a little little box that makes clapping sounds that you can you can control you know of course the the specifics of how many claps it sounds like together or the frequency and resonance and all that stuff but he's a real expert at all of these things i'm more of an enthusiast and i i wouldn't i don't want to put myself down and say

i'm bad at sound design because i definitely have a i have a feel for that but when it comes to modular synthesis and really getting into the nitty-gritty of it i find that i i want to work with somebody who can make it happen quickly and specifically. Yeah, because otherwise you could go down the new order path of spending three weeks on one drum sound or something. Which, you know, it's fine if you have the time and the money to do that, but I don't, not yet, because I have ideas about what kind of sounds I want. Anyway, it was just heavenly being in that studio and that part of the world and working with that particular individual.

So I just decided to go in and start writing music. And then, you know, the songs start to come together. And I'm always writing down words, you know, ideas and phrases and expressions that I think are funny or themes. And then do you also do sort of voice notes for melodies and things like that? Yeah, I do. Sometimes. I don't do it as often as I should, because it's never coming back. Usually, you're never going to hear it again. Right. I've also

heard things in dreams that I wish I could have recorded. I was going to ask, like, I read somewhere, like, someone extolling the virtues of thoughts that you have in the dead of night, but it's never worked out that way for me. I look at stuff that I've written down at 3am, it's just dog shit yeah i think it's important to write it down but it is often disappointing in the light of day but sometimes it's not sometimes it's exactly as great as you thought it was but i i've definitely heard music before in dreams that i know was original i mean who knows you know what pieces the brain is accessing to put it together into some yeah because part of the dream might be that it's brilliant.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. Like part of your fantasy that your brain is weaving is that you've come up with a brilliant piece of music. Yeah, absolutely. So I do try and write things down. This time, though, I worked on soundscapes, you know, just putting together blank sound canvases.

And then I imposed lyrics onto those. So describe for me what constitutes a blank sound canvases. And then I imposed lyrics onto those. So describe for me what constitutes a blank sound canvas. Well, just an instrumental piece of music. Okay. You know, just instrumentals. And then I would think of those as blank canvases on which to project words and vocals. But I wanted to have those aural canvases to start with this time, because I wanted to make sure that I got the sounds right. I never really have the time to work with sounds the way I want to, you know.

So that sounds a little bit like scoring a movie or something. Yeah. That sort of approach. Yeah. Have you done that before? No, it's something that I want to do. I'm sort of tempered in my desire to do that because I know that it's also a different beast. Trickily collaborative.

Yeah, exactly. And it's not, I'm sort of thinking, be careful what you wish for type thing, but I do fantasize about making a beautiful horror movie score. For example, Colin Stetson has just done the score to the movie Hereditary. Oh yeah, which I'm too scared to see.

Yeah, you shouldn't be. Should I not? I think it's really good, actually. A lot of people said they had a problem with the ending. I thought the ending was good. I didn't think it was cliche, but it is certainly something we've seen. We've seen similar things before. Yeah.

But I quite like the way it ended, and I thought it was quite horrifying. It is disturbing. Yeah. See, that's the thing. That's my problem. Yeah. I don't really want to be disturbed anymore. i'm disturbed by enough yeah well there's also different types of being disturbed isn't there yeah i mean fun disturbances i don't know what

it is about that that i find um so exciting you know when you talk about roller coasters and thrills and stuff so you're not afraid of a disturbing movie if someone says oh this one's gonna fuck you up for a bit you're like yeah come on well i mean i never watched um because if someone says that to me and i read a description of hereditary and thought probably won't be saying that yeah well the thing is they're they're quite often unable to deliver these days when they say these things so i'm quite interested to find out whether somebody understands the human condition enough to where they can actually make something that is actually disturbing. It seems like there's a lack of understanding as far as the human condition or what is disturbing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right. And you get all this torture porn stuff, which, you know, it's gross and sometimes in the right context. If all the other variables are present, that can be very jarring as well. Yes, because it's usually about physical pain. It's like, oh, wouldn't physical pain and discomfort be bad? Yeah, it would. But as you say, there's worse things. Yeah. Much.

Yeah. I mean, when it gets into, I mean, I love The Exorcist. You know, and I keep going back to The Exorcist, and I love Silence of the Lambs, and I keep going back to that movie. I think Seven is one of the last movies where they were really able to get under your skin in a unique way. What's in the box? What's in the box?

Oh, come on. What's in the box? He's an ugly crier. Is that going to be okay? Yeah, yeah. We'll sort it out in the edit. Going back to music and soundtracks, I think you're a Blade Runner soundtrack fan. Is that right?

Oh, yes. That is hard to beat, isn't it? That's one of the greatest, yeah. If not the greatest score. I mean, there's some incredible scores out there. I'm a big score fan. Yeah. Soundtrack score.

Oh, yeah. What are some of your other ones that you like uh the conversation with gene hackman by um david shire is an amazing one i recently discovered david shire's unused analog synth score to apocalypse now which as i said was unused but it's disturbing and unsettling Who did the one that got used in the end? I don't know. Google time. Yeah. One of the documentaries I put on your hard drive was Hearts of Darkness?

Yeah, Hearts of Darkness. It's good, isn't it? I was sure that you would have seen it, but just in case. Isn't there a novel called that? Yes, well the story from the apocalypse comes from? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the novel is called Heart of Darkness, Joseph Conrad. That's right.

Carmine Coppola and Francis Coppola provided the music for the theatrical release of Apocalypse Now. Yeah. That was interesting and I'm really grateful. Yes. I have a permission to serve it by the plateful Going in the left ear, loving on the right Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, Am I right in saying you're writing at the moment? Or you have written a book about your life? I haven't. I'm supposed to. I've said that I'm going to.

Right, okay. But I'm a little bit scared to do it because of the wealth of incredible books out there. It needs to be done the right way. So much incredible writing out there. I'm not trying to say that I don't think I can do it because of the wealth of incredible books out there. It needs to be done the right way. So much incredible writing out there. I'm not trying to say that I don't think I can do it. I think I can do it. And I want to do it.

But I want to make sure I get it right. And I can't be doing it while I'm doing all this other stuff. Yeah. You know, I'm not a very good multitasker. No. I mean, you know that band King Lizard and the Wizard Gizzard? You know, they're putting out five albums at the end of this year. Yeah. Five entire albums, you know that band King Lizard and the Wizard Gizzard? You know, they're putting out five albums at the end of this year. Yeah.

Five entire albums, you know. And so there's these people that are constantly working, and they get up in the morning, and they go to the gym, and then they come home and write for an hour, and then they watch the news, and then they have breakfast alone or with their family or whatever. And then, you know what I'm saying? They schedule every day.

King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard are probably young and on drugs so that that'll be why yeah i can do five albums sure in a year but i mean it's also quite good as well sure oh yeah no they're great right but you've got an interesting story to tell i mean you have many interesting stories to tell you i wonder if i do i mean you you've had an unusual life and uh you know you're you're sort of an inspiring figure i think for a lot of people because you've come through a lot of things that would clobber a lot of people and even though you you know you're open about some of the struggles you've had and continue to have it feels as if you're on the whole winning is that fine i'm definitely winning because you know you if as if you're on the whole winning is that fine definitely winning

because you know you if you survive you're winning yeah you know and for people who aren't familiar with the with the things you've talked about in the past i mean i guess you can trace a lot of the difficulties you've had back to the way that you grew up and the environment you were brought up in and what was that how would you describe? I guess it was mid to lower middle class, very religious American family, you know, in a small town in the Midwest. And... Colorado?

No, Michigan. Oh, Michigan. Yeah, for the first 12 years for me. Right. My grandparents lived across the street from us and my mother was born and raised in that house across the street. And then, so she was there on that same street for 40 years before we moved to Colorado.

I have a lot of nostalgia for the childhood there, even though I was becoming aware that I was attracted to men during that time. What sort of age? Not the men you were attracted to, but... It was more like 50 to 75 that I was targeting at that point. It must have been seven or eight. Silver foxes. Yeah, yeah. You reckon you were seven or eight?

Yeah, probably. You know, it's funny. I can't remember specifically when things happened, but... And do you remember... It must have been between five and ten was when all this was going on that is for most people isn't it when the stirrings start stirring whichever way they in whichever direction they stir yes and did you have an instinctive sense that your stirrings were going to cause you problems you were stirring in the wrong direction i did yeah i did i even

remember seeing um jim jones was that his name the from the guyana massacre oh right yeah jonestown yeah yeah jim jones yeah i saw the biopic about him or whatever with powers booth which was fantastic back in the 70s i remember being very disturbed and having to go to my room and my father asked me what was bothering me about it he was having sex with men and women in the church and i felt you know i knew that that was going on with me. Or I knew that's what I wanted to do as well. And, you know, it's funny because I didn't feel, I didn't want to watch that. I must have been a real weird kid.

Because I sensed that if somebody saw me reacting to that in the incorrect way, that I would be found out. So I didn't want to watch it. And what were you worried? Were you worried about your parents? Or were you worried about God or something like that? All of them. Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't as worried about God as I was worried about my parents and my brothers and sister.

And they would be angry with you or disappointed in you? It was much worse than that. I knew that there would be a horrible punishment. I don't know. How did I know at that point that that was a fate worse than death? I know that there would be a horrible punishment. I don't know. How did I know at that point that that was a fate worse than death? I know. It's strange. I must have seen things on TV and heard things on TV. I mean, I did see things like the Jonestown Massacre. I heard people talking about queers and faggots. I guess you're hearing these things.

Right. You're enculturated yeah and i did hear those things and i had people saying things to me at that young age intimating that there was something wrong with me in that way and i didn't know um exactly what that meant you know what i mean i didn't really know what they were talking about yet well it's such a it's such a vortex of shame that age anyway, when you start experiencing sexual feelings. And if you've got the extra pressure of cultural disapproval, then it must be really lonely, I would think. Well, because I keep trying to figure out,

why did this affect you so deeply and so horribly that now at the age of 50, you still struggle with it on a daily basis? I asked because I read the forward that you wrote for a book called Straight Jacket by Matthew Todd, which came out last year, which is his thesis in the book is that despite all the progress that's been made in all matters to do with the LGBT community, there's still so many problems that are forcing gay people of all types to become depressed and to you know exhibit kind of self-destructive behavior in all sorts of ways and he's wondering why yeah it doesn't go away i saw that thing this this thing called nanette this stand-up special from oh yeah hannah gadsby yeah and i thought there were some really great things in that and she said something about how by that time it was too late because I had already been indoctrinated as a homophobe myself.

Right. She's gay. She grew up in... Tasmania. Tasmania, right. And she had, I mean, she's had some very upsetting experiences that she talks about in that show. Yeah. in that show. Yeah. I remember a lot of evil experiences with people where people were,

you know, snaking around, creeping, sneaking, playing with you, toying with you, you know, trying to see how far they could push you and needle you and because they were making, you know, making fun of what you were. And I mean, you grew up in this Christian home that was ostensibly you were being taught to love and to turn the other cheek and to be humble and not to be filled with pride, which was a very confusing thing for a child when people don't make a difference between arrogance and good, solid self-confidence, which can also be confused with pride. Because you have gay pride, for example, and that's a different type of pride than the pride that they were talking about in church, isn't it? The pride where your pride comes before the fall. Yeah. You know? I think that can be quite confusing for a child, but I also think that I was so indoctrinated myself

as far as this can't happen to me. I can't be one of them, you know? this can't happen to me. I can't be one of them. You know, I didn't want to have anything to do with because I wanted to be a man like the men that I saw around me that I admired and looked up to. And, you know, these strong, beautiful men who played sports and, and were this, that, and the other thing. Because life would just be simpler. Not only that, but it was beautiful to me. Right. You admired them. I admired them, you know, but you were also receiving very specific ideas about what it meant to be a man and what it meant to be a woman.

And if you're doing that, then you're acting like a woman or you are a woman. And if you're doing this, then you're not a man. But I suppose the greatest shame that I deal with on a daily basis is having, you know, felt like all of the treatment that I got at the hands of these people was something that I deserved.

You know, believing that that's what bothers me the most. That's what I, it's almost, it's, it's almost difficult to say things like that out loud. Yes. I mean, you, you say this in, in the forward for straight jacket, you, you're aware that now those kinds of statements are considered politically unhelpful by certain sections of the gay community, for example. They'll just say, well, listen, if you're a self-hating gay, then that's your problem, mate. We don't need that kind of thing. Thank you very much. Yeah. And I'm against that sort of talk as well. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't think that's helpful because that's just glossing over and covering up shit you know people who say stuff

like that and say i'll just get over it get over yourself we don't want to hear that i mean let's face it the gay community doesn't feel like it can fuck up because it's been told you have to prove that this is nature you have to prove that this is not a choice you have to prove that a gay relationship can work whereas i say i don't have to prove anything to you because it's none of your fucking business. I don't have to prove whether I was born this way or whether I chose to be this way because it's none of your fucking business either way. You don't get to have an opinion about it either way. But I think in the gay community, you know, you got to put on this face of we're happy and because, you know, because people have always been saying it's not natural

and your relationships cannot work. Yes. And we're watching you. And you do have to prove something because it is wrong. Because it is wrong. And what's more, it is it's fucking illegal. Yeah. Right.

Exactly. See, I mean, the law says so. Yeah. You know, it's not just me telling you that, you know, so don't tell me that that doesn't and, you know, for Donald Trump to get up there today or yesterday and say it's a horrible, difficult time to be a male in today's society. And he means, of course, a white, privileged male or whatever. Or no, maybe he just means a man in general. It's like taking a big shit on what people have been through.

I think about this idea of what... I mean, let's face it. One of the cruelest things about the world is that no matter what was done to you as a child, when you hit 18, you're expected to become a well-balanced, productive member of society, no matter what happened to you.

It doesn't matter if your dad was raping you for the first 15 years of your life. That did not happen to me, but it happens to people out there. And then when they show up on the adult scene, it's don't bring your shit. Don't project your shit onto me. Figure your shit out.

Pull it together. Get on with it. Pay your bills. You know, you're an adult now. Take responsibility for yourself. No matter what was done to you. Unfortunately, that is the way it is. And unfortunately, nobody can take responsibility

for you but you right i mean who else is going to do it yeah no matter what happened to you you are the only one that's responsible for you so you do have to figure out a way to get your shit together that is the cruel thing about it um and if a lot of people fall by the wayside a lot of people commit suicide because they can't figure out how to get their shit together because of what has happened to them in the past. And people saying, get over it, get over it, quit complaining, quit whinging. It's not happening to you now. What's wrong? You're looking for ghosts.

You're looking for trouble. You've got that mindset. You won't move on. That's not the way to go about that. No. And I suppose Trump and the kind of hashtag him too, or whatever it's called. Oh, fuck me. That pushback.

I wish I could have gone on a little longer without hearing that. I hadn't heard that yet. I think something like that. Of course, yeah. As you said, it's a lot of people who just, they're irritated. They're like, everything was fine before everyone started moaning yeah the assumption is that it was a level playing field before you know and this is 2018 everyone's got just the same opportunities you know we're not what are you complaining we all

know that racism is wrong what are you still going on about yeah but um and it is difficult i think just because sometimes there are there are elements of the conversation that aren't quite so nuanced and are extremely shouty on both the extremes, the political extremes. And I feel as if those are unhelpful a lot of the time and help to fuel this sense of, you know, like, oh, shut up kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. From both sides yeah i read a good piece by a guy called john harris who writes uh he's a political commentator for the guardian unsurprisingly i suppose oh you know he talks about he says whatever happened to the idea that used to be um a popular dictum with the progressives that be the change you wish to see in the world do you know what i mean rather than just constantly yeah telling the other side that

they're fucking morons or they're fucking evil who you know i'm talking about the right and the left right although when it comes to the right and i and i tend to agree with you there although i will say that the left you know for for decades centuries, the left either couldn't stand up for itself because it agreed with those people. But finally, you get to a point where you're like, I'm not going to take this shit from you anymore. And then the right is saying, oh, look how violent they are. Yes, yes, yes. Oh, look how violent they are. And it's like, well, I didn't go out into the world looking to destroy other people. You're the one that has gone out into the world looking to destroy. And I'm just standing up for myself. if as soon as you push back and they're like

oh you're not so peace loving are you you know and that i have a big problem with that because you were provoked what's the what's that horrible cliche about an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind right come on that's Gandhi. That's classic Gandhi. But it's, and it's fucking true as well. Yeah, it is. And that is the end to your question.

That's what happens. Yes. Yeah. Thank you for these beautiful gifts. Oh man. I really, you have, they're so, so good.

No, I'm delighted you like them. That's great. Where are you headed now? What's the next few months looking like for you? Just doing album promotion. Yeah. And I'm starting to tour.

Yeah. And now that you are totally sort of straight edge, no drink, no drugs. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. What do you do when you bounce off stage and you got all that adrenaline to

deal with? That's a good question. There's a lot of stuff that goes on after the show. There's some talking to people and interacting with people so it takes a while to get out of there but i usually just go back to the hotel room and watch tv watch some show that i'm into um i devoured you know uh bodyguard and um killing eve yeah most recently exactly what i've just been watching as well yeah and um there's not I don't know what else to to do now there's not well you got a hard drive of fun I have an

incredible hard drive of this is going to probably take care of the next year for me sure did you watch Phoebe Waller-Bridge who wrote Killing Eve did you watch her series Fleabag no but I'm familiar with it. Yeah, that's good. I heard that's great. It is good. I resisted it for a long time because I think I was a little bit resentful of how much everyone, do you know what I mean?

Sure. Like with that thing, everyone saw it. Oh, it's brilliant. You're just like, yeah, whatever. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Happens all the time. Yeah. So it takes ages for me to get around to actually watching something.

And you go, oh, yeah, it is good, isn't it? Cool. I'll check it out. Yeah. Oh, I started to watch something called Forever with Maya Rudolph and Fred Armisen. Oh, yeah. And I was a little surprised by that. I watched the first two episodes and I didn't see that coming.

So I'm probably going to continue watching that. Yeah. Those are both two incredible performers. Yeah, yeah. She blows my mind, that. Yeah. Those are both two incredible performers. Yeah, yeah. She blows my mind, that Maya Rudolph. I'll tell you what. She just blows my mind. I'll tell you what.

Have you read a book called Educated by, she's called Tara Westover? No. Oh, fucking hell. It's quite a thing. Cool. I must write that down. No. Oh, fucking hell. It's quite a thing. Cool. And she was... I must write that down. Tara Westover was 17 the first time she set foot in a classroom

born to survivalists in the mountains of Idaho. She prepared for the end of the world by stockpiling home-canned peaches and sleeping with her head-for-the-hills bag. In the summer, she stewed herbs for her mother, a midwife and healer. And in the winter, she salvaged in her father's junkyard. The family was so isolated from mainstream society, there was no one to ensure the children received an education and no one to intervene when one of Tara's older brothers became violent. As a way out, Tara began to educate herself. It's quite an amazing story. And just things go wrong all the time on their farm out in the middle of nowhere.

And they can never go into the hospital because the dad distrusts doctors. And he sees them as being pawns of the government. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really extraordinary. So it's a combination of, it's very well written as well. But holy shit, things are going wrong there's car crashes they're out in the junkyard and they just get injured quite badly on a regular basis her brother's leg gets covered in fuel from one of the car engines and then there's a spark and his whole leg goes on fire and all his fucking skin melts off and oh my god it's really intense what is it what is her

name um the book is called educated a memoir and her name is tara westover west over west o-v-e-r yeah it's pretty good is that what your book's gonna be like i certainly hope so what's your what's what's your nuttiest anecdote, like your most extreme anecdote from growing up or from your life? I have, I don't know. I remember one thing, which I really am grateful to my father. He denies that this happened. But one time we were walking into the hospital to visit my mother who had just had her hysterectomy and um we walked into the reception at the hospital and

there was this weird plant on the desk there this weird cactus looking thing and my father looked down at his two small children and said, Oh, look, they planted your mother's uterus. Whoa! And I was quite pleased with him for that. I remember thinking, Yeah, Dad. You know? Way to go. Good comment. They planted Mom's uterus.

Wait. This is an advert for Squarespace. Every time I visit your website, I see success. Yes, success. The way that you look at the world makes the world want to say yes. It looks very professional. I love browsing your videos and pics, and I don't want to stop. And I'd like to access your members area and spend in your shop.

These are the kinds of comments people will say about your website if you build it with Squarespace. Just visit squarespace.com slash Buxton for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, because you will want to launch, use the offer code Buxton to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. So put the smile of success on your face with Squarespace. Yes. Continue. Hey, welcome back, podcats. That was John Grant.

I very much enjoyed meeting John, and I'm extremely grateful to him for his time and patience. Now, it is a beautiful day, and I'm feeling very summery, so what I'm going to do is hand over briefly to Monty Bursch of Hoy, presenter of the BBC's Countryman, who is going to regale us with some sounds of the summer. Summer in the countryside is a time of many delicious aural bounties, a few of which I would like to gift you today.

The sound of the bumblebees. Bumblebees are always at work stealing shit from plants, but they do it, like, sustainably. but they do it, like, sustainably. Between the spring and the autumn, the bumblebees accumulate thousands of air miles, which enables them to fly business or business premium wherever they go, and ensures that when checking into a new flower, they seldom experience queuing.

A young male man playing with a ball basket. He isolates himself from the world with headphones, on which he still listens to some queen, though increasingly he enjoys the mating calls of the mumble rappers. Over on a big field, a giant sprinkler thing on a massive hose is set up so that the stinky rabbits can have a shower and get cleaned up before a night of heavy but respectful rabbit sex. This bird is on a weekend break from the city. But as you can hear, it is still receiving real-time stock data,

which is annoying for its partner. At this time of year, the country is filled with many tasty summery snacks. Mmm, a hot dog. Right, that's enough. I was just thinking that I kept on referring to the author of that book, Educated, as Tara. That's the way she pronounces her name, Tara. So I should be respectful and pronounce it the same way, right? Even though in this country we all know it's Tara. This is an important

thank you very much indeed to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his production support on this episode. I continue to be profoundly grateful. Thanks also to Annika Meissen for her excellent additional edit work. Thanks, Annika. I appreciate you and I'm grateful for your skill. Thanks to ACAST for hosting this and so many other great, but too many. I mean, it's turning into a monopoly of podcasts, but I'm grateful to them. Don't forget that if you're a John Grant fan, that bonus audio and Spotify playlist of electronic music is available right now on the Adam Buxton app, the free Adam Buxton app,

and that bonus audio is also free. Rosie! Rosie! She is ambling. Come on, mate. All right. Until the next time you decide to pay me and Rosie a visit. She's still hot.

Take please good care of yourself. I love you. Bye! Bye! Like and subscribe. Please like and subscribe. Please like and subscribe. Please like and subscribe. Give me a like and smile and a thumbs up. Give me a like and smile and a thumbs up.

Give me a like and smile and a thumbs up. Give me a like and smile and a thumbs up. Give me a like and smile and a thumbs up. Please like and subscribe. Please like and subscribe. Please like and subscribe. Please like and subscribe. Thank you.