The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Deconstructing Old Myths of Manhood

Episode Date: April 18, 2024

What's going on with men? The aftermath of the #MeToo movement shattered the idea that most social ills like online abuse or sexual assault long hidden under wraps are just stemming from men being men. This crisis of conscience and identity has shifted the collective idea of what it means to be a man, therefore a consensus around a healthy conception of manhood becomes critical. Alex Manley has written and edited for a men's website for over a decade. In their non-fiction debut called "The New Masculinity," Manley pushes against the common and harmful myths on how men are supposed to carry their manliness in order to offer a guide that teaches healthy lessons about how to be a man today.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

From epic camping trips to scenic local hikes, spending time outdoors is a great way to create lasting memories to share with friends and family. This summer, TVO is celebrating the natural wonders that inspire unforgettable adventures with great documentaries, articles, and learning resources about beloved parks in Ontario and beyond. Visit tvo.me slash Ontario summer stories for all this and more. And be sure to tell us your stories for a chance to win great prizes. Help TVO create a better world through the power of learning. Visit TVO.org and make a tax-deductible donation today. For over a decade, as a writer and editor for a men's website, Alex Manley grew increasingly conscious that certain forms of masculinity were limiting.

In their non-fiction debut called The New Masculinity, a roadmap for a 21st century definition of manhood, they push back against stereotypical notions of what being a man is and offer what they say is a healthier vision for men and boys. And Alex Manley joins us in the studio. Thank you so much for joining us. Absolutely my pleasure. All right let's dig into it. The first lines of your book say masculinity is reaching a crisis point. I'm hoping you can sort of paint the picture. How are we seeing a crisis of men in our day-to-day lives? I think you know it's so hard to

read the news these days or watch the news or just, I don't know, come across sort of the news without encountering some form of man in crisis. or whether that's kidnappings or whether that's world leaders acting rashly or getting people into wars. It's hard for me anyway to not come away with a sense of the currents of our lives are being shaped by the actions of men, and often in very bad ways, I guess, not to be too judgmental about it, but, you know, so much of the tragedy and terror, I think, that, you know, that we read about and hear about that's so shocking comes from the actions of men, you know, and that's so shocking comes from the actions of men, you know. And that's something that kind of almost fades into the background a little bit, insofar as it's easy to, you know, oh, like there's been a shooting, you know,

we start analyzing the suspects, you know, mental health, background, you know, religion, politics or whatever. And it's like, okay, religion, politics or whatever. And it's like, okay, well, 95 plus percent of these are being done by men. And we don't necessarily think about the gender aspect. Right. So the way that I think the conversation around gender

has changed and maybe intensified in the past five to 10 years made me feel like, you know, we were at sort of something that feels like a crisis point anyway. I don't know if that is, you know, certainly it seems to me that things might continue to intensify. I don't know that we're at like a climax or anything or it can't get any worse, but it feels like it's never far from the headlines. And I think we need to talk about that. All right. So you wrote in the book, sort of, I want to talk about the structure.

Each chapter you're dissecting sort of one of the traditional myths of what boys do or don't do. For example, real men don't wash the dishes. Tough men don't need to see a shrink. And even more trivial things like no man should ever wear makeup. Why did you do it this way? Well, I talk in the introduction specifically about the fact that so much of what we consider sort of normative masculinity in sort of Western society in North America these days is framed around don'ts rather than dos.

And that's a very kind of sad and limiting approach to gender, which I think can be beautiful and complex. And to some degree, there can be as many genders as there are people, you know, and everyone's sort of gender expression will be, you know, what feels right to them at a given point in their lives. And it'll be sort of a mix of the culture that they come from and what they learned from their parents and what they picked up in school and from pop culture and you know and all that. So to me I think acknowledging really in the in the very structure of the book that so much of the lessons that boys are taught when they're growing up is around don't do this don't do that

and kind of blowing that up a little bit felt like a productive approach to me. And kind of blowing that up a little bit felt like a productive approach to me. A lot of these conversations around masculinity, as you mentioned, Ken, feel like men can do only wrong. They are the problem. But you say in your book, the enemy isn't men. It's the toxicity that exists within traditional masculinity. Hoping you can give us some differences here. How does a modern view of masculinity differ from a traditional one? Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, these conversations can be so fraught.

And I think it's hard for guys to not feel attacked when they hear a phrase like toxic masculinity. And so conscious of that, I tried to keep that out of the book as much as possible because I think, you know, the popularization of the phrase toxic masculinity is one of those things that I think has done a little bit of a disservice to the conversation in the sense that it's true that certain aspects of contemporary masculinity are toxic. I think it's also true that certain aspects of contemporary femininity are toxic. masculinity are toxic. I think it's also true that certain aspects of contemporary femininity are toxic. And I think, you know, the fact that the phrase toxic masculinity exists and has gained some cultural currency leads some people to believe that if you're using that term, you believe that

all masculinity is 100% toxic, that masculinity and toxicity are like the same thing, rather than it's a descriptive phrase used to describe certain facets of masculinity. And if the phrase had been like masculinity gone wild or something, you know, like masculinity gone too far, or I don't know. I mean, those are bad examples, but, you know, we might be still having the same conversation about like, it feels like a very semantics oriented conversation. I think very few people on any side of the political spectrum believe that all men are bad or that all masculinity is bad. But I do think that there's a lot of kind of painting people who are striving for a healthier vision of masculinity as being man-haters or whatever.

And I think, you know, I'm a non-binary person, and a lot of my friends are trans and gender queer people. And so many, you know, like, for instance, a person who is assigned female birth grew up being treated as a girl, living as a girl, and who starts, you know, in their adulthood feeling more comfortable using more masculine modes of presentation, wearing suits, up being treated as a girl, living as a girl, and who starts in their adulthood feeling more comfortable, using more masculine modes of presentation, wearing suits, having short hair, that kind of stuff. That, to me, is so beautiful to see.

And it's so nice to talk to someone who, and call them bro, and call them bud, and sort of engage in this kind of very masculine sort of feeling friendship with them that when I experience moments like that I'm just like there isn't this hatred of masculinity you know like there isn't this hatred of toughness or of I don't know muscles or of swagger or whatever. It's more just when these things are paired with, I don't know, like a very kind of fragile emotional register, a very kind of, maybe a greater comfort with violence or that kind of stuff, I think. So for me, a lot of this conversation is about teasing out like what is

healthy in masculinity and what is even neutral, say, you know, like some aspects of masculinity are not good or bad. They're just sort of what we associate with masculinity, like wearing a suit, for instance, or there's nothing good or bad about that. It might be sad, for instance, if you grow up and you think I can only ever wear a suit. I can never wear anything else. I can't experiment. Or like, I can only wear a suit with very muted colors. I can't wear a suit that's colorful or something like that. But that's not, you know, like that's so kind of separate from, I don't know, what the actual conversation is, I think.

I want to move over into role models. I think I want to move over into role models and you talk about how young boys have been taught Unhealthy lessons at every step of their journey and now they were being blamed for the toxicity that they ingested Who's teaching who's teaching them these unhealthy lessons? Do we do we have good role models? Yes, and no, I think so. Hmm some of the problem I think is that as a culture we're very kind of in the infancy of this conversation, I think. And part of that gives me hope that sort of the conversation can continue to get more nuanced and more interesting and more wholesome as time goes by. But I do think part of the problem is that we haven't yet kind of sketched out ways to talk to young boys that sort of address the complexities of their journey, that address sort of the fact that today, for instance, they're

coming up in a world where lots of, you know, their counterparts at school will be wearing t-shirts that say the future is female or something like that. And how exciting it is for young women to be part of this movement of feminism. And we don't really have like a, we haven't really, I think, as a culture established a sort of a competing, not competing, but like a viewpoint for't really I think as a culture established a sort of a competing or not competing but like a like a viewpoint for boys that sort of articulates like a healthy sort of version of that you know so I think like a lot of the time it's sort of like well either you're on board with the future is female and this sort of I don't know projected future matriarchy kind of

which I think is a straw man or a straw woman, if you will. Or, you know, there's this push to maybe turn to these sort of online influencer role models who are like, you know, that disaffectation that you feel, that sense of unease you feel around gender stuff, you're 100% right. You know, women are trying to control you. They're trying to, you know, control the world or whatever. And we got to take back, you're 100% right. Women are trying to control you. They're trying to control the world or whatever. And we got to take back traditional masculinity. And so I'm loathe to talk in specifics about some of these influencers who are popular with young guys for fear of giving them oxygen, as it were. Do you mind me flipping that then and asking for those, you know, for those who don't have

a role model for positive masculinity in their lives, where can they look to? You know what? I mean, it's tempting to say like, oh, like this celebrity or that celebrity is a model for, you know, positive masculinity. But I think it's really more a question of each guy sort of asking himself, who is it that I respect? You know, whether that's someone in your life, whether that's a father, a brother, an uncle, a grandfather, a neighbor, a teacher. Or, you know, if it's a celebrity or even if it's a fictional character, you know, like who's a man sort of whose vision of manhood are you drawn towards and why? And that can, I think,

be a really productive conversation. You know, what is it that feels important? What is it that feels close to your heart, you know? And I think sometimes, you know, when boys articulate visions of masculinity that are sort of outside the traditional norm or whatever they get kind of pushback from you know their friends or people at school or their their families you know like oh like boys aren't supposed to do this like why are you valorizing you know x y z guy um and so i for me the hope is that they'll you know in the future, that conversation will be different. It'll be like, oh, like, I don't see that guy as being, you know, traditionally masculine. He's not a super macho guy. Like, what is it that draws you to his, you know?

And the boy could say like, oh, like, the fact that he's a really caring father shows to me that, you know, he's got a good heart, something like that. I don't think it's so far-fetched, you know, but we do live in this culture where, like, the vision that boys are sort of expected to choose from is sort of, like, either it's the muscle man, or it's the guy who kills everyone else, or it's the, you know, the seductive, suave ladies' man, or whatever, you know,? And God, that's, you know, that's so, that's just as narrow as, you know,

like the old school vision that's like, oh, like women can either be like the housewife or, you know, the mother or, you know, like, it feels like a gender that hasn't fully flowered yet. I want to return back to sort of those stories of, you know, influence of fathers and sort of older role models that you've had. I wanted to pull from some of your own experience. I find it's, you know, your last name is Manly. I'm sure a lot of people have probably asked, you know, growing up and challenged sort of what masculinity is.

What was your experience navigating masculinity with a name like manly absolutely uh there's a sort of a trope i think for queer people that um sometimes your bullies know that you're queer before you do um and uh i'm hesitant to embrace that fully because sometimes people are just being mean, but I think sometimes it is true that people can sort of see forms of gender expression or details about yourself that you might be hiding from yourself or that you might be not yet sort of fully aware of or comfortable exploring.

And I think, you know, I was made to understand very early on that I wasn't mainly, you know, in the vision of masculinity that my, you know, peers at school perceived. And so it's been something that I've been thinking about, that I've had the opportunity to think about for decades now. And that hurt a lot when I was younger. It hurt to sort of be confronted with this like, oh, you are not this thing that you think you're supposed to be. But it was also, I think like,

it was putting me on a path to think more deeply about this stuff. I don't know if I'd had a different last name, Smith or something, what sort of, what, like I wouldn't have been pushed to think as deeply and as much about gender as a kid. And I think that definitely played into me being someone who now thinks about it professionally. Well that's what I was gonna say, a professional, you're a writer and editor for a men's advice website called AskMen for over a decade and has at some point became number one website for this. So you say that in your work at AskMen,

the articles that usually perform the best are the articles that speak to male fear. So I want to delve into that, which is a recurring theme in your book. And you say that fear drives men. What are these fears? Because you get a chance to kind of see what are, you know, what are these popular articles? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think so much of it is about men's anxieties, specifically around sort of being physically strong so there's workout content about looking good so there's grooming and style content and about sort of being I don't know the consummate lover I guess so there's sex content and there's dating and relationships content and so I think from this we get an interesting picture of guys as being, you know, anxious about the way they are perceived in the world. necessarily needing to be attractive and desirable romantically and sexually in order to be a real man. And I think that's so fascinating because, you know, these are stories to some degree,

and there's certainly nothing wrong with being strong or looking good or, you know, good or, you know, being romantically successful. But the idea that, you know, these are the primary anxieties that guys have, I do find a little sad, I guess, because, you know, there's so much more to being a person and to being a man than just those topics. As a society, what can we do to unlearn or deconstruct the sort of what you say is old harmful myths around boys and men? I think so much of it comes down to sort of trying to have a more expansive vision of what men could be. And some of that is in encouraging men to reimagine their roles

and the stories that they tell themselves. Some of that is in men changing the nature of the conversations they have with other men. I think there's this real anxiety about men-only spaces these days, because we have this image of the frat or the golf club or whatever, these spaces that have traditionally been seen as toxic and, I don't know, just sort of sexist, I guess. And I do think in order for men to sort of take the next step in their journey, we need to establish men-only spaces that are really oriented towards, like, a healthy masculinity where men can talk to other men about concerns that are specific to being a man and open up and feel sort of held and understood and seen by their fellow men.

And I think, you know, if you say that about women, for instance, there's tons of women-only spaces where women do exactly that, where they get emotionally real with each other, where they, you know, they work through things together. And I don't know, it's very healing or whatever. And we really don't sort of have that for guys. And I think, I mean, there's people pushing for that. There's, you know, organizations, there's groups, I think we're sort of on the cusp maybe. But I do think like we do need, you know, to, to sort of the, the way that men talk to each other and the way that men are in community with each other to change.

And I think men drastically underestimate how much of an impact they can have by talking to their male friends and their peers in a way that is, you know, that steps away from sort of the traditional kind of like, I don't know, I'm not going to get too open, I'm not going to get too real, I'm just going to be kind of macho and sort of go with this bravado. And I think, you know, there is a hunger for having these real conversations for a lot of guys,

but there's also the sense of like, oh, if I'm the first guy to open up, you know, is that going to make things awkward? And I'm just like, you know, men, if you want to show how brave you are, you know, here's your opportunity. Vulnerability can be scary. It can be extremely scary. And I think, but I think like there's this sense, at least for me, that men don't yet understand how gratifying and how rewarding it can be to be that vulnerable and then to have that vulnerability respected and returned and I'm just like I'm excited for men to start to get comfortable being vulnerable. I've got about 20 seconds left a question a little bit of a big question here but we've seen a

number of books and literature over the years discuss and reinforce sort of traditional masculinity in some way act as a guide. Was this book in response to that? And what would sort of be that message? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think when I was working on the book, I read, you know, several dozen books about masculinity. And what I found so often was it was people identifying problems, but not really presenting solutions. And what I found so often was it was people identifying problems but not really presenting solutions. And so I wanted this book to be a very kind of accessible guidebook that, you know, however it got into a young man's hands, whether he got it himself or someone else gave it to him, it could be, you know, it wouldn't require him to have a degree in gender studies. It wouldn't require him to be, you know, to have any particular necessary viewpoint, but it would try to meet him where he was at and try to sort of demystify and render less scary some of the gender conversations that have been happening lately. Because I do think that, you know, if you don't already feel comfortable with them, you know, they can be very anxiety producing. And I want today's guys to be, I don't know, less scared, I guess, in that regard.

Alex, we're going to leave it at that. Thank you so much for joining us in studio. Really, really insightful stuff. Thank you so much, Ian. The Agenda with Steve Paikin is made possible through generous philanthropic contributions from viewers like you. Thank you for supporting TVO's journalism.