The Bechdel Cast - Batman with Riley Silverman

Episode Date: February 9, 2017

Bat-Caitlin and Jamie the Boy Wonder swoop in to decimate the roles women play in Tim Burton's Batman with special guest Riley Silverman! (This episode contains spoilers)Follow @ryesilverman on Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @hamburgerphone   Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm NK, and this is Basket Case. What is wrong with me? A show about the ways that mental illness is shaped by not just biology. Swaps of different meds.

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Hear episodes of Rip Current early and completely ad-free and receive exclusive bonus content by subscribing to iHeartTrue Crime Plus, only on Apple Podcasts. On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked, if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effin' vast, start changing it with the Bechdelcast. Hi, welcome to the Bechdelcast. I'm Jamie Loftus.

I'm Caitlin Durante. And we're your hosts. We are. It's true. That was really close. Yeah. Wait, close to what? To what the normal intro? Oh, yeah. I think you usually say, you know, I'm your, well, usually you say I'm your first host and then I have to say I'm your second host and that makes me feel bad. That's never happened. That's happened at least twice.

I don't say. Or I say, or maybe I'm just'm just I'm like I'm your other host yeah that's what happens I just say I'm your host Caitlin and then you say I'm your other host and get really insecure

at the top of every episode and then dial back for the remainder of the episode be like you're too hard on yourself

you're great hopefully that doesn't happen this time around Jamie you're great and I like you so much I just wish people would tell me that all the time I'll text you at least once a day Hopefully that doesn't happen this time around. Jamie, you're great and I like you so much. I just wish people would tell me that all the time. I'll text you at least once a day with that information. Thank you.

Set a reminder. Set a reminder. Everyone close to me has a reminder set. Well, just to give you an idea of what this podcast is about, if you haven't listened to any other episodes, which you you should do but if you haven't uh we talk about the portrayal of female characters in movies yeah and going off the bechtel that's alison bechtel yeah she has a test and we uh look up the test look it up guys just look up there's a whole internet out there with information i like that when we say look up the test long enough to have actually explained the test. I know.

We'll get there. We'll get there. We will. And let's not stall any longer. How about we introduce our guest this week? Oh, I'm excited. Yeah. She is a comedian and a very funny person, Riley Silverman.

Thanks for having me. Thanks for being here. I'm a comedian and a very funny person. Riley Silverman. Thanks for having me. Thanks for being here. I'm a comedian and a very funny person. Yes. Right. Because sometimes those two things are not mutually exclusive. That is very true. I know a lot of comedians who are not funny.

And I know a lot of funny people who are not comedians. But I am both. You are both. Congratulations. I'll take that. A rarity. A true rarity. Because sometimes you're just a comedian. I'm both. You are both. Congratulations. I'll take that. A rarity. A true rarity. Because sometimes you're just a comedian. I'm a double threat.

Exactly. Like sometimes you're just a comedian and a sociopath, but you're not funny. Right. That happens a lot. In today's movie, actually. That's true. I was foreshadowing. Yes, good job. I wasn't subtweeting. And speaking of that movie, we are talking about Tim Burtonton's batman from 1989

uh riley when uh like what was the first time you saw this movie or what's like your relationship to this movie i have a weird complicated history of this movie because i did see it when it came out because i was a i was people thought i was a boy and uh i was a i was a nerd and so like a superhero movie coming out was like right up my alley like it was it was huge and i was a i was people thought i was a boy and uh i was a i was a nerd and so like a superhero movie coming out was like right up my alley like it was it was huge and i was obsessed with batman at that point in time and i you know because that's what was there and i at that point my only real major experience with batman had been the 1966 tv series which is like so campy and ridiculous over the top yeah and so i had a few comics and stuff like that, but not a lot. And I remember this movie came out, and then also I was struggling with my gender identity, and there was a Cracked Magazine parody of Batman that was like,

because they did the movie comic parody every time a movie would come out. Oh, yeah, yeah. Because Batman was everywhere. And there is a scene in this movie where Vicki Vale gets let into the Batcave, and we'll talk about that more later, I'm sure. But in the comic, they kind of of slim that down a little bit and they just had bruce kind of like come out to vicky as being batman which is a scene in the movie as well but doesn't happen but in the in the comic he like steps out and he's in the bath suit and he's like i something to tell

you whatever and she's like oh you're a transvestite and like i i am a transgender woman i'm not a transvestite it's not a word that i use anymore but it was the very first word that i ever heard uh to describe anyone of like a variant gender identity so it's like this weird thing and i remember i had a babysitter and i was reading this crack comic and i remember asking my babysitter like what is it what does transvestite mean and she was like oh it's a term for like men who dress up like women because they want to be women and i said oh that's what i am like that's like a thing that happened in like my childhood and i remember like freaking out my business like you can't tell your parents i told you what that means like you just gotta be like

like she didn't know because she's a teenager who's like she's being paid like a couple bucks an hour to watch hbo at my house um but yeah that's like so batman has always been this weird like tie-in to my coming out and i was talking to caitlin off mic before you got here jamie about how there's also an episode of the batman animated series where poison ivy and harley quinn have like a girl's night out of the town and like you remember that being like my first film slash like yeah like i've been obsessed with that episodes ever since it's like my like first like in my like baby riley queer girl like like lesbian pair like like like fanfic in my head and it's actually now in the comics a little they actually kind of made

it canon those two actually are a couple and it's like my like someone just like channeled my childhood into pages and like made it a thing i love it yeah everything is connected uh i used to my did you have like cartoons that you wanted to make out when you were younger? Nothing comes to mind, but. I think you're lying. I, no, if I had, I wish I had something to say. What kind of a nerd are you that you don't have cartoon make out fantasies? Um, I know.

That was ironic. I was not actually calling you a nerd., I know. A bad one. That was ironic, actually. I was not actually calling you a nerd. I hope you... Tommy Pickles and Aunt Angelica. I don't... The thing is, Pat... Here's the thing. I didn't watch that many cartoons as a kid because, well, one, we didn't have cable.

I didn't have cable growing up. So I didn't have, like, Nickelodeon or Disney or anything like that. I did watch Gargoyles a lot. That was pretty good. But I don't remember watching that many cartoons. I was like – I don't even know what I watched. I watched the movies that I still love now. Right.

Like Indiana Jones and Back to the Future. I wasn't watching a bunch of kid cartoons, and I think that's why I hate children. I feel like you're the next of all those. And I hate everything that's directed toward children because I just never watch. Yes, because if there's anything that's not directed toward children, it's Indiana Jones and Back to the Future. Those are definitely not... Children hate...

Kids hate time travel and adventure so much. No, grown-ups only. No, I'm saying, well, those are things that also grown-ups can enjoy. I just watch, like, Star Wars and... Grown-up stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Really serious things. Grown-ups can enjoy those things also. I'm just saying I didn't watch things that were only for a children audience. That's fair. Mine were Doug and Skeeter. Oh, nice. I actually did watch that show some. I wanted them to be together.

That's what I wanted. Really bad. I can like summon what I used to think about. Just them kissing on a bench, like a very specific bench. And they were listening to the beats to the band from Doug. Is Doug in his crown man outfit? Like it's like a kinky thing? That would be tight.

That would be like an episode of mine. Because he wore like underwear on the outside of his pants. And a belt on his forehead. He's like, put your hand down in my underwear. And he's like, which pair? It's great. Now I've got to go home and watch it. If anyone listening to the podcast wants to draw me some Dug and Skeeter scissoring, I can do it myself.

Oh, there's got to be a Doug. I'm going to look up. I think there's got to be Doug and Skeeter. Like, they're perfect. They complement each other in every way. That's why they're best friends. Yeah. And, like, they've got different body types, but not, like, too, like, I'm just, like.

Well, Skeeter has that very long phallic nose. He does have, like, just a. Just like dick nose phallic nose. He does have just a dick nose. I didn't realize until years later that the idea was supposed to be an interracial thing. Like a person of color because he's drawn green. I didn't get that until years later. It's weird because Doug is white. His whole family is white and then

the rest of the characters are just like various colors. Right, because Patty, wasn't Patty Manny's orangish? She was orangish. Maybe he wasn't supposed to be that and I just embrace this now. He was different colors. I think you're right though. And then Roger the bully

was like neon green. That's the thing. I can't find anything of Skeeter and Doug together, but I'm finding a whole lot of Doug and Roger stuff. Doug and Roger? I'm finding so much Doug and Roger stuff. Show me. Oh, my God. This is like a very tender one.

This one's very sweet. They're so in love. Well, this episode is now about Doug and no longer about Batman. I can't believe that there's no Doug in Skeeter. I bet there is somewhere deep down. That was a cursory glance. Jamie does animations.

What do you call them? I have like a series of people I would like to see scissors. You should draw it. I should just put in Doug. So how much do I have to pay you for Harley Quinn Poison Ivy? Dude, honestly,

I just do it for freezies. It's just fun for me to do. I literally, I have the Batman animated series Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn and the Funko Pops. Really? And when I got them, I actually posed them like they were kissing

and took a picture of it. Yes. 35 years old. Yes. And I'm giggling. I'm literally giggling. I don't like it. I just thought it was so funny and ridiculous. It's so much fun.

I'm sending a letter back to my childhood. Oh, my favorite one I made is for... Okay, and then I promise we'll talk about Batman, Caitlin. I'm trying to bring it to Batman. I'm just not bringing it to Batman in the movie. I'm actively bringing it away over and over. My favorite scissoring one that I would direct everyone to is young Henry Kissinger and old Henry Kissinger.

Oh, I think I remember that one. That was a custom one for Josh Androsky. That sounds about right. Yeah, because that's what he would want. It's what he'd want. Where can people find it? I'll post it on our Twitter account. Oh, great.

I can't wait to see it. I'm very excited. Jamie, what is your history with this movie? Had you seen it before? Guess. No? No, I watched very excited. Jamie, what is your history with this movie? Had you seen it before? Guess. No? No, I watched it today. As with every movie we've ever done, I watched it today.

I liked it. I thought it was great. Yeah, it's so much fun. It felt like July when I was watching it. It was a summer movie. I am baffled that you liked it and did not like Mad Max Fury Road. My brain is imploding in on itself. I couldn't stand Mad Max Fury Road.

I'm triggered. Don't talk about Mad Max Fury Road ever again. I'll never bring it up again. But I did notice. I loved Batman. That's interesting. All right, we will talk about it. So I saw this movie for the first time. I think I was notice Batman. That's interesting. All right. We will talk about it because so I saw this movie for the first time.

I think I was in college. I was probably like 19 or 20, which is about 10 years ago because I'm not afraid to reveal my age. Yeah, I'm an aging woman in Hollywood. So what? Well, sorry. I don't know why I started yelling, but I saw it. Calm down. I know.

A woman your age can't get so upset about things like that. No, I'm just getting so emotional because of all of my hormones just going haywire because I'm reaching menopause or whatever. I don't know. Anyway, I— What is aging? How does it work? Time is a construct, and life is meaningless. Anyhoo.

Let's leave. I drove in traffic to get here from Berkeley. I know, me too. No, life has meaning, and so does this podcast. So I've seen this movie probably four times, and each time I watch it, I like it less and less. Well, that said, it's not a good movie for women, certainly. Certainly not. But it was a fun movie.

I like it. I remember liking it when I was a kid, just because, certainly not i saw it was a fun movie i like it i remember liking it when i was a kid just because like oh it's batman like it could have been it literally could have been batman like like fighting city hall over like some sort of parking ticket but if it was batman i'm like oh yeah batman's in a movie and stuff like i don't think that i got any of what is actually happening this movie when i was a kid and then i i probably watched a couple times when i was like a teenager but not in a long time. And I was not prepared for how much of it. I was like, oh my god, I can't wait for this movie. I think what happened for me...

It's so weird, but I'm on board. I like it. I mean, I liked it at the time. And it's still not bad. I mean, I have it on DVD, so I liked it enough to buy it. But I think what happened for me is that I saw Christopher Nolan's trilogy, and especially Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. I just like those movies so much more than – Not everyone reads those, but I think they're fantastic.

Yeah. I love them. They're good. I like the Joel Schumacher ones. Oh, God. But you've seen those ones and not Tim Burton's Batman? No. Oh, my God.

Okay, but the thing is, I love Joel Schumacher. When I was growing up, if anyone was like he's one of the worst your favorite director i'd be like i'm a schumacher head oh man phantom of the opera 2004 gerard butler did he direct that oh yes he did of course he did i want to get on board with you like in schumacher but you keep saying movies that should not argue for that joel schumacher has directed only saying movies that should not argue for that. No. Joel Schumacher has directed only bad movies that I have enjoyed. Let's think of someone

who's like, oh, I like In Night Shyamalan. Oh, what do you love? Oh, I love The Happening. Oh, he made The Lost Boys. Yeah, that's a movie that if you had said that I would not have made fun

of you for it but you picked He also made Phone Booth. I like Phone Booth. Phone Booth is great. He made Flatliners. I like Flatliners. Yeah, these are movies

that, yes, if you had said the phantom of the opera is his best movie no it's not he had a guitar soloist to andrew lidd weber oh my god that's fun also patrick wilson and anything to be fair i think phantom itself is like an overrated show and so like the movie also is like it's like takes the it like somehow took a show that that gets really boring about halfway through it and made it even more boring somehow it is i mean it is a boring show halfway through it and made it even more boring somehow. It is. I mean, it is a boring show.

I'm very attached to it because I used to sneak out of my house and then put on goth clothes and go see the Phantom of the Opera. Actually, what I'm getting from this, you're like a Phantom of the Opera and Batman, is you love movies that people have been horribly disfigured in the face. Like, that is your thing. I love a fucked up face. Then you should have loved Fury Road. I should have. But it was the most boring movie I've ever seen in my life.

All right. I was saying off mic, but I do like, Batman and Robin is a bad movie that is badly made and badly acted except for Uma Thurman's Poison Ivy. And she just, like, knocks it out of the park

to the point where she's like, she's like, I think there's a lot of people in movies that are always, like, very aware of the movie they're in when everyone else isn't. And I feel like she's a good of people in movies that are always like very aware of the movie they're in when everyone else isn't. And I feel like she's a good example of that. The most famous one everyone thinks of is Juniker shown in Showgirls.

She just knows exactly what she's doing there. And I feel like even speaking of Batman, the newest, the Batman versus Superman movie, a lot of people didn't like Jesse Eisenberg, but I loved him because I feel like he's the only one who came to set every day and was like, we're literally making a movie called Batman versus Superman. I'm not going to tone it down at all, ever, the entire movie. I didn't see it. Neither did I. He was Lex Luthor in that? Yeah.

I've got a picture pulled up here of an almost shirtless Joel Schumacher. Oh, gross. That's his Wikipedia picture. It's how he would have wanted it. He's still alive. I'm going to just keep this episode on track as best I can.

I'm as bad as Jamie. It's just hard to talk about Batman because Batman is so, like, it's such a far-reaching thing. It's not just like one movie, but it is, yeah, this movie is. The movie itself deserves to be talked about. So the tricky thing about an episode like this is we are basically isolating Batman to this one movie. Like I was saying before, I'm not super familiar with any of the comic books or everything I know about Batman I know from the

seven Batman movies that I've seen. So, sorry to all you Batman super fans. I'll probably get some things wrong about stuff. And also, grow up! Grow up! I'm just getting back into comics after a very long hiatus, but... And also, grow up. Grow up. And also, like, I'm not even... I mean, I'm just getting back into comics

after a very long hiatus, but it feels like DC reset their continuity on a pretty regular basis, so I feel like if someone's like, that's not how things worked, well, it's like, okay, well, what decade are you talking about? Because a lot of things change over time.

I like that. I like some legal ret. That makes it easy for us. Ret con. As per usual, I will give a very terrible recap of the story at no one's request. And as usual, I will give a very terrible recap of the story at no one's request. And as usual,

I will interrupt it a lot. I can't wait. Okay. I will sit silently and say nothing. No, you can contribute. Okay, I was going to. I hope you know

that's going to happen. I love interrupting. I wrote a really fast, this is going to go really fast. Okay. So there's a Batman, but we aren't sure if he's real. They're like, there's a Batman. There, a Batman, but we aren't sure if he's real.

They're like, there's a Batman, there's a Batman, but we don't know if he's real or not. And the bad guys are kind of scared of him, but kind of not. And then, uh,

he's like, no, it's me. I am Batman. Tell all your friends. And meanwhile, they're in the city of Gotham and Gotham city, Gotham city.

Got it. And they're, uh, and the, all the politicians are trying to crack down on crime. Cause they're a bunch of white guys. No, no. One of them is not a white guy.

Oh, Harvey Dent is. He turns white for Batman Forever, but he is a black man in this film. Yes. So, hey, good for them. Lando Calrissian. Yes. District attorney. They're trying to crack down on crime and specifically go after this mob boss named Grissom.

And he has this right- mob boss named Grissom. And he has this right-hand man named Jack Napier. But he's trying to get rid of Jack because they're, like, effing the same woman. So they go to this, like, chemical plant and Jack falls into this vat of acid. There's, like, a corrupt cop who's working for Grissom who, like, tries to kill Jack and then Batman drops Jack. Yeah, and then he becomes the Joker because his skin gets all bleached and his hair turns green. And now he has a different personality.

That's what I like. And he has nerve damage on his face that puts him in a perpetual crazy grin. Yeah. So now he's the Joker. And then there's also this lady named Vicki Vale. And she's like,

yo, I'm a photographer. I'm trying to snap some photos of Batman. So, Hey, journalist friend named Knox. Let's try to win a Pulitzer prize. Oh, that guy annoys the hell out of me.

and then she starts dating Bruce Wayne. Uh, and then other stuff happens. That's pretty much like the first act. Then the Joker's like, I'm bad. And Batman's like, no, I'm going to get you.. Then the Joker's like, I'm bad. And Batman's like, no, I'm going to get you. And Joker's like, Vicki Vale's hot. Yeah. That's one thing. Joker's like,

Vicki Vale, I know you're a photographer and you're famous, but you're hot and I want to have you. I love that scene where he first sees a picture of her and he calls her a beast. Yeah. He's like, this kind of beast can't just be walking around. I was like, oh, jeez.

Wait, who calls? The Joker calls Kim Basinger. Well, Vicki Vale calls her Kim Basinger. Oh, like a little beast. But doesn't even precede it with a sexy adjective. He just straight up calls her a beast. Toward the end, he calls her a beast again whenever he's like, oh, this is fitting, Beauty and the Beast.

But if anyone else calls you Beast, I'll rip out their lungs. It was hilarious because he was trying to call himself Beauty. Hey guys, listen to our Beauty and the Beast episode. That was a fun one. That's the only movie I saw. We've done, what, like 10 episodes now? I've seen

one movie that's Beauty and the Beast. Oh, the Joker's plot that he's doing is he has hidden these chemicals in cosmetics around the city that when they're combined make a person laugh themselves to death. And also get the same nerve damage that he got in his face by being cut. But somehow they're all...

It's the chemical Smilex. But he also thinks it's like an art project. He thinks he's an artist. I like the scene where he throws paint on the other art and dances. Yeah. Prince. I remember as a kid loving that scene.

I remember thinking it was so much fun, and I love the idea of going to an art galley and ruining people's work. I loved it today. What if you and your friends just went with your own song and just ruined Priceless Art? He loves causing havoc to music like that's his whole thing in this movie like there's a scene early on when he kills uh grisham uh jack palance's character he like like suddenly there's like circus music playing he's like firing his gun but like he's both shooting directly at him but also at every other inch of

the room just like it's like dancing around care. Throwing a gun over his shoulder. So that's the story. That one was pretty quick. I managed to get it out pretty fast. I thought Jack Palance was Martin Sheen. I see the resemblance, yeah. Yeah, because I was almost like, because I'm like weirdly horny for Martin Sheen,

and I was like, oh, but then it was Jack Palance. And you're like, goddammit. I wanted like, oh. But then it was Jack Palance. You're like, goddammit. I wanted the president, not the guy from City Slickers. Exactly. I wanted President Bartlett. I don't want a guy who's going to remerse it to a maze name at the Academy Awards. No.

I don't want Charlie Sheen's daddy-o. I think of him as Emilio Estevez's dad. I want to be their stepmom. Oh, that would be cute. That would be such a good mommy to them. Hey, Charlie. Hey, Emilio. There's another.

I think there's at least one other brother who's very. Oh, no. I think Martin Sheen has a. Okay. I don't know. It doesn't matter. I'll look up the family tree. I always mix up Martin Sheen. When I was younger, I don't do so much more about Martin Sheen.

And oh, I'm thinking of the guy who's married much more about Martin Sheen and, oh, I was going to say the guy who's married to Captain Zeta-Jones. Oh, Michael Douglas. Michael Douglas. For me, as a kid, I always had to confuse because I think they had

the same haircut and I just knew they were old white guys in movies. Oh, my gosh. Douglas is way younger than Martin Sheen, but they played the same

kind of basic role, but they were different ages. Michael Keaton and Michael Douglas are not the same man. True. Although I think Michael yeah this whole real name is michael douglas but he couldn't take that like sag made him change it what else is michael keaton in i'm having a pain wait michael keaton's last name is douglas i think so in real life for some reason i in my mind i always just thought he was like buster keaton's grandson or something oh but i can be totally be totally wrong. Just in my head, I always assumed that and never looked it up.

I could be very wrong about the facts. Hey, fake news, everyone. I have literally no facts to back up what I just said. I just always assumed that in my head. I always assumed that Clea Duvall was Robert Duvall's daughter. And that is not. And to the point where I was like telling people, oh, yeah, she's his daughter. And that's not true at all.

That's fake news. Fake news, baby. Fake news. Oh, so his other big thing before that was Mr. Mom and Beetlejuice. OK. Yeah. He was a huge star this year. And he's making quite a bit of a comeback.

Deservedly. Yeah. I've heard the founders. Great. But yeah, he was like and the thing about him being cast in batman was it was kind of a like a very much like when ben affleck was cast everyone's like what why would you because he because he's a comedian and then he was like known for these ridiculous comedy roles and then they're casting him as bruce wayne and batman was like the weird it was a very bizarre choice for the time period but it also

goes tim burton just seems to only better work with one actor repeatedly and that's what happened like oh i like tim burton i like michael keaton no no i like johnny depp okay i'll keep casting him like right there's something to be said for an like an aggressively good looking man who insists on playing characters anyways like that's i'm just like what what strength of spirit you have wait are you saying that michael keaton is aggressively attractive oh no but like i feel like he fell into like... Or Johnny Depp, either one of those two people. I think Johnny Depp, yeah.

In his prime, he was. He was. Not only is he unattractive for his personal life issues as well, but he just became kind of a weird... Yeah, he did not age that well. Getting back to Joel Schumacher, I feel that way about Patrick Wilson in Phantom of the Opera. Patrick Wilson's a very handsome man, but in some movies he's getting his dick chopped off by a very young page boy

haircut Ellen Page. And then the next year he's playing Raul. In Hard Candy. I love that movie. Anyways, I just wanted to talk about Patrick Wilson. Go back. It connects in that he's also a superhero in The Watchmen. It's true. He's a character. He's Night Owl. He's a Well, it connects in that he's also a superhero in The Watchmen.

It's true. He's a character. He's Night Owl. Wow. He's a character. I forgot about that. Back to Batman. Okay.

We've got... Michael Keaton's attractive. He's not hot. He's not unattractive. But I wouldn't... He's not conventionally attractive. I think he was considered attractive at the time. I think he was like...

He just has that Billy Crystal fuzz hair that I cannot get you. Everyone in this movie has the same haircut and it's confusing. It must have been very humid on the set. Everyone's a little frizzy. There's a gag about it later because when the Smilax toxin is in everything,

the idea is no one can use makeup or hair products because they're afraid they're going to be murdered by it. They're like airlifting in cosmetics from outside the city and yeah the newscasters all have like horrible boils in their face like yeah yeah at least like the the part where the newscasters are are like on on camera looking like hell at least they did make the men and the women it wasn't like the guys look fine i did notice that right because i noticed i know i'm probably speaking out of turn at this point but i noticed like i feel like women are the only ones who actually die from Smilax in the film. Like, unless I'm missing somebody.

But I feel like every victim of Smilax is, like, a supermodel or a female newscaster. Yeah. There are two models and then, yeah, that newscaster woman. Yeah. Who dies. And those are the only people. Those are the only, like, on-screen deaths we see. They're, like, very obviously they died.

Yeah. we see they're like very obviously they died yeah um speaking of those uh characters and other characters like the main ones the women that we have in this film uh the main female character is vicky vale played by kim basinger and uh alicia hunt played by uh oh crap i forget her name jerry hall jerry hall and she but she was more of a secondary character. She doesn't get a ton of screen time. Yeah. Versus the main male characters, which are Bruce Wayne, a.k.a. Batman, Jack Napier, a.k.a. the Joker. And then the more secondary characters are Lieutenant Eckhart, Grissom, the mob boss, Commissioner Gordon, Harvey Dent, the reporter Knox, Alfred the Servant Man, and on. The Joker's assistant guy.

Yeah. I think his name is Bob. Yeah. And all the guys who work for Grisham. Yeah. The guy he murders with a hand buzzer. This is an example of a movie where almost everyone on screen is a man. Because all of the cops are men. All of the bad guys are men like all of the cops are men.

All of the bad guys are men. All of the journalists are men. So like it seems as though anyone at least with a job in Gotham City is a man. Yeah. The only women you have, you do have the newscasters. There's two of them because one gets dead. Yeah. And the other one is also a lot of like old ladies in background shots.

I noticed that. Like I noticed like there's like a scene like in an apartment store. I mean, there's like a lot of like older like spinster ladies that are all doing their shopping. They are decent in having a lot of women in the crowd scenes. At least I think they were, but I can't be totally wrong. And then Vicki Vale has a job. She does. She's doing her thing.

She's an established photographer. Yeah. In any case, all of the main characters who have, like, significant roles in the story, almost all of them are men. And the few women that we do have, well, one look exactly alike. Yeah. They are hot blonde ladies. When I was a kid, the first time I saw it, I definitely got Vicki Vale and Alicia mixed up at first. I think until they're in the same scene together, I'm like, oh, I thought that was the same person. Yeah, that was too confusing. I was like, one can't just have sort of curly hair.

And they're like the same very, very hot lady. And good for them. Sure. Like, they are adapting this from source material that might have also featured mostly white dudes. But the nice thing about adaptations is that you can change things. If you want to update things and make them more or include more types of people, you can do that. And also, you really can't even give that one, even that adaptation argument, because Tim Burton, very famously, did not really care about the comics and didn't really read the comics.

So he kind of made his own version of Batman. And still just made everyone a white dude. Yeah. Cool. Even as of this year, when he made the School for Unusual Children, he had that comment that was like, the story doesn't really call for it. Why would I have it in there? And it it's like because you can just have people existing in the world yeah oh no okay where was i going oh okay here we go the first time that we see vicky vale the first time she is introduced uh all we see are her legs. Yep. Because did you know that women are just a collection of their body parts?

Have you ever seen the Headless Women of Hollywood blog? No. It's wonderful. It's by a fabulous New York comic named Marsha Belsky. I have seen this. Yeah. She aggregates all the movie posters that are just women's body parts. Yes, I have seen that. Cropped body parts. It's amazing. It's so like the movie posters that are just women's. Yes, I have seen that.

Cropped body parts. It's amazing. Like someone's butt to the camera, no face. And like, yeah. Check it out, gang. She's great. And it's there's literally no like limit on the source material. Yeah.

It's the spectrum. Everything. Cool. So, yeah, we are introduced to her by her legs that are just propped up on the table nox goes hello legs uh and then he says oh if you want to take nudes of me you'll need a long lens which uh is sexual harassment in the workplace yeah i would say box has almost no role in this movie except for to be a guy who objectifies vicky and like is mad that she's dating bruce wayne like his only job in the movie is to like criticize her choice of a boyfriend

that's not him like that's like because he's supposed to be like there's the implication that he's the reporter and she's the photographer so she has to go to him to look things up because i can't look at computer uh that's not how she talks but that's very harley quinn actually but it's weird because like i know that in the comics or like at least later maybe after this movie but they seem to have turned vicki valen to more like an investigative journalist as opposed to just a photographer yeah not that just as bad but like she but yeah and so it's like it does feel like they could have just gotten rid of his character entirely right because it's already like a love triangle quote unquote it's a horrible way to phrase it because the joker loves her quote i fucking love he desires

her as an object right um and bruce likes her and so it's like this like weird like oh these two men are after the same woman even though one of them is made up clear she has no interest in one of them completely yeah so having robert wool be like the fourth angle of this thing doesn't need to happen at all no no one loves vicky in this movie yeah which is too bad alfred might oh oh yeah i'll make them but like platon hey it's like her grandpa yeah i also just wanted to like throw in their long focus lens that's not an accurate photography joke oh yeah i don't know enough about photography you would use a long lens i looked it up but can you also maybe argue that he's an idiot and just thinks he knows what he's talking about and

is actually like making stuff up he just wants to say i've got a big old dick yeah i looked it up and brought you to make a photo of it broadcast news came out in 87 and i actually feel like this was just ripping off the albert brooks storyline from broadcast like oh we're gonna have a kind of shitty albert brooks in this movie oh yeah well like i think like making her character more of like an investigative journalist would have been a better idea because when it makes her more active because right now basically her role in the story is to uh be the love interest because did you know women can only be love interests in stories according to movies like this but a couple times she goes and then they try to shoot her yeah i actually kind i like laughed out loud at that part i was like the one time she's actually doing her job they try to kill yeah and it makes no sense why they try to kill her because they're

actually trying to take batman's mask off and she's trying to take a picture of his face and then they go kill her but it's like wait why and then he gets away you would want her to okay yeah yeah you was trying to add something to the plot for once yeah once in a while they try to imply that she does have like an investigative slant to her but it's like always couched in she's trying to figure out this guy that she's dating as opposed to just being like oh bruce wayne actually is kind of a weird dude i should investigate him it's always like why didn't he call me or why did he tell me he was going out of town when he was actually follow him around yeah she like stalks him for a little bit yeah you could argue it's her job but also it's like you've got ulterior

motives yeah it's weird too in this movie because like you've got ulterior motives yeah it's weird too in this movie because apparently nobody in gotham remembers bruce bruce wayne's parents being murdered because like they like find articles about it and they go oh what a weird story that happened this kid like really no one remembers that this super rich family was just gunned down in the street also at the beginning no one knows what he looks like like she's like are you bruce wayne are you and i like he does look like almost every other guy in this movie but like i was like he's like a i thought he was a prominent yeah you would think that he'd yeah his picture would be in the paper or something they're at a party at his house

and they don't know what he looks like and they're not gatsby and they're not like people from out of town like that'd be one thing but they're literally both working as for this newspaper in the city like really you don't know who a head socialite of your city is yeah it'd be one thing, but they're literally both working for this newspaper in the city. Really, you don't know who a head socialite of your city is. It'd be one thing, in Batman Begins, the idea is Bruce Wayne's been gone for a long time and is back in town, so that could even make sense. We know what he looks like. He's been gone for so long, even when he was a kid. But this is not the case.

And he's charming. He's not a recluse. He's somebody who has galas at his house and has an art collection and yeah my favorite part of uh vicky vale doing her job in this movie but also still like being the love interest at the same time is when after she gets those pictures or like maybe gets those pictures and they shoot at her she calls her editor and she's like i have a scoop and he's like is it hot and she's like laying on her bed she's like it's real hot that's a weird scene too because like that's that that scene happens after batman

has saved her from the joker attacking her the art gallery and she has some pictures of him and then like he's like there's one more thing i need from you and he like throws his arm up in the air i'm like did he just hit her or did he gas her like what happens and then she wakes up on her bed the next day so I'm like is there like a deleted scene that we didn't see where they totally did it and then he like dropped her off or did he just like knock her out and steal

her camera she talks as if she's just come 45 times yeah she's like it's real hot well she takes that film and puts it like in, stuffs it in her bra. Yeah, he takes the film. Yeah. So either way, he like reached down her shirt and stole.

And she was probably, I'm guessing, unconscious because she didn't know that it was gone until she woke up and then checked her boobs. And she's like, oh, the things that I store in here are missing. And she's like only momentarily annoyed by it. Like only momentarily that a man who was supposed to be the superhero knocked her out, felt her up and stole her film.

And then she's like still on board. Like, oh yeah, we got to call the police because he has a plan. Like what? What? I don't know. Yeah.

I do want to point out that if Bruce Wayne slash Batman did really want to do some good for Gotham City, he could probably just spread his wealth around a little bit more and eliminate a lot of the crime. There's a comedian in San Francisco named Dash Gwitalski

who basically has this whole thing about how all Bruce Wayne has to do is open two factories and he could solve all the crime problems in Gotham. He's like a billionaire, right? Like, yeah, spread the wealth, dude. Yeah, he literally just has to take all the crime problems in con he's like a billionaire right like yeah spread the wealth dude yeah he literally just has to give like take all the guys who are working as thugs for all these super villains armies and just give them like nine to five gigs with health insurance they'd probably be fine but he's like mentally ill and he's so he makes up a very

complicated i read this very intense batman theory where it's like the Batcave is like Batman's actually in Arkham Asylum. And it's like a fight club thing where he's Batman and the Joker. Oh, man. I hate those things so much. It was on this podcast with these like really drooly sounding men. And they were just like, and then this. And he was insane the whole time. But also, if you're a guy just running around in a costume, any superhero movie, it's like, get over yourself.

Yeah, I hate any fan theory. It's like, this isn't really happening at all. Or like, these are all connected in the same universe. Everything is like that. Just like, I get it. You're clever. Yeah, it's like, just go get a job. Grow up.

Grow up. Our advice this episode, grow up. Stop being a superhero and get a job. I love telling people to grow up. Grow up. Our advice this episode? Grow up. Stop being a superhero and get a job. I love telling people to grow up. I know there was one version of the Joker at one point in the comics where when he thought Batman was dead, he just gave up crime and started living a normal life because he no longer had Batman to foil against. So it's like, oh, Batman is the problem. Yeah. That's definitely the argument in Batman Be begins in dark knight is that like because

batman exists like he helps escalate the crime problem and then like because he's there like the criminals escalate as well he's tempting them yeah because like gordon has the whole thing like you got bulletproof vests and then they get armor piercing guns and then you got a guy in a suit and then you got this guy in a clown costume like yeah they're always trying to top each other yeah but so in batman 1989 um yeah it's just like there's always things i'm like why is she just okay with this like and that's she's getting the better treatment like as far as women in this film go and that's not saying a lot right i couldn't believe because i know like this wasn't the original movie that i had talked to you about

because i was gonna do and then you're like well we should do this because of the timing and everything all right oh by the way uh we are doing this movie right now because the Lego Batman movie is coming out. That's why I was like, hey, let's do Batman. I'm so sorry. I remember like thinking that it was going to be devoid of women. That was going to be the problem with it. And then when I started watching it and I hadn't watched it in so long i was like shocked at how much worse it is than that like so we talked about alicia the the woman that uh he basically like wins by stealing her from um grisham is that his name grissom grissom like

he basically like like they're having an affair and then gris that's why grissom like kills him but then he even acts like when he's killing grissom he like acts like how dare you make a woman matter enough to kill me over he literally like he says like you're trying to kill me over a woman a woman like she's just so objectified and then because he like kills grissom he basically gets to like claim her as his and she just rolls yeah, let me play my game. Yeah. Did you know that you have to keep dating the side piece that you had been fucking before whenever he murders your mob boss boyfriend? Did you know that's how you have to act when you're a woman? That's the rule. I would love someone to kill someone else over me, but I'm extremely vain.

I'll kill someone for you jamie thank you in her defense as a character i think that's actually one of the more realistic things that happens in this movie only because but not in a good way but like in a psychologically tormented person way like she's terrified of what jack is going to do to her and is like broken because that's why she can't leave like she's afraid to leave him like and i think it's like he's not just like your standard like garden variety abuser he's like literally a monster who's come back from the dead so does she call him daddy at some point he calls himself daddy he's like daddy's gonna go make some art so much worse okay because i got confused because she was covered with the mask so i wasn't even sure who she was.

The mask comes off very briefly and it's horrifying because you also find out that she is. She starts singing music of the night. When I was a kid, I don't think I really realized what happened to her face. I remember she's wearing the mask and thinking she had makeup on or whatever.

When I was leading up to it, I go i think he's like been hitting her or something and then it's so much like she has this horrible scar that like he's clearly like like thrown acid on her face or something and like burned her like he's really trying to like build up to making toothpaste or something and he just like threw and it's so jarring all of a sudden i'm like this is the movie that i watched when i was like eight yeah and then the way he casually says she jumped out a window oh yeah yeah i can't he's like carrying the broken mask around he's like he can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs yeah and and he like only talks about her in like like he talks about he calls her like his masterpiece like his piece of art that he makes like he's so objectified her that like when she's dead he's just like mad that his art is gone like

as opposed to but and then like the movie doesn't even show her kill herself like don't even give her the like agency of having her own death on screen it's literally just like a guy carrying her mask around talking about her to the woman he's trying to bang now like just a sentence of like exposition of like he he literally says he's like oh i'm going through a tough time right now yeah she threw herself out a window like oh tough day for you baby why didn't you tell me that earlier uh here's a fun thing the first time or no i think it's maybe the second time we see her character on screen uh alicia hunt she's carrying like six shopping bags because you know hey did you know women be shopping she's just and then the

next time we see her she has other shopping bags she's just always out shopping and she like passes out because she thinks that jack is dead he's like hey baby i'm home whatever and she's like passes out like this really good cartoonish thing. He's like, hey, baby, I'm home, whatever. And she's like, passes out. Like this really good cartoonish thing. Yeah, that's the other thing. Did you know that women faint all the time because we're delicate little flowers? Where am I smelling salt? Dude, all that said, I do really enjoy Jack Nicholson in this movie. He's like, even though his part is as problematic

as you can get, he does a great job. He does a good job. And the other thing I really like about this movie is the score. It has a great score. Is it an elfman? It's an elfman. An elfman and a prince. There's a lot of prince in this movie.

There is a lot of prince. I played in, guys, real quick, real quick brag. I feel like I mentioned that I an elfman and a prince like there's a lot of prince in this movie there is a lot of prince I played in guys real quick real quick brag I feel like I mentioned that I played the oboe in high school

in almost every episode but we played the theme from the 1989 Batman at our spring concert oh it's a great theme it's a great theme and I had a little solo and I

fucked it up aww I thought where you thought it was going so if anyone's looking for an oboe player in the Los Angeles area, just shoot me an email. Do you still play? Yeah, I got my oboe in my car right now.

Can you go get it and play that song for us? I used to play the clarinet. We could be in a band together. We should start a band. I played trumpet, but I never actually learned how to play it. And I would just sit. I would try to. I took lessons, but i never figured it out really and i would like go to con like we'd have like recitals or like band concerts and i would just sit and like pretend to be playing

the trumpet because you couldn't tell because i was in the crowd anyway and then like my mom like one day like kind of figured out that i wasn't enjoying it and she was like but you sound as a good i'm like i wasn't actually playing i was just sitting there pretending to push on the buttons and i think she was waiting to like, did you spend money on the trumpet? It's a tricky. I wanted to play drums and they just like kind of assigned you your section. And like, I didn't want to just play any random instrument. I wanted to be a drummer.

They gave us instruments literally like the sorting hat. Like they would just be like, you know, if you were cute and a little girl, they'd be like, you play the flute. Or if you're really cute, you play the piccolo. What? It was weird and then they were like oh boy girl and which true but also hurtful at the time so this movie's interesting we're talking about the joker like the nicholson's performance because i i had always kind of in my head combined this nick this joker with like the cesar romero old batman joker as being a little bit less vile and a little bit more just like funny and weird and goofy but boy he is a sadistic sociopathic monster like he is so much

darker than i remember him being and it's interesting because i i actually even think he might be a little bit more dark than heath ledger's joker because he ledger joker is a sociopath and he definitely has these like i guess maybe he's pretty messed up because he does put that bomb in that guy's stomach and he also makes that like that boat try to kill half the people ever but his thing is so much more psychological mind games and like this like agent of chaos whereas yeah this joker feels like he likes to personally inflict harm on specific people and that's like so much creepy and it's like i actually like research a little bit for this podcast trying to figure out when that became the joker because i feel like that's established as

who he is now like i think the um jared leto joker was very much like that and like they then they made him very abusive to harley quinn and if you look at like even in the old batman animated series he's very abusive and it's it's weird because i know like he's going through a lot of evolutions in the comics from being like he started off as a killer and then he kind of became more of a ridiculous clowny character and then around 70s and 80s he went back to being this dark character because the book was getting dark but it's weird because like i as a comic fan i guess maybe like now that i've actually like dealt with in real life the ramifications of what like a sociopath does to the people around them like i i've i never dealt with somebody who's like cutting into somebody or like but like psychologically tormenting people

it makes it so much harder to enjoy a movie now where someone's like really over the top doing it because i'm like oh god this brings up a lot of thoughts about triggering i'm sure yeah not even like i mean like it's a little it's not even like a full-on trigger it's just more like oh i don't want i don't i can't escape in this thing it's like yeah like a full-on trigger. It's just more like, oh, I can't escape in this anymore. Yeah, yeah. You're like, this isn't fun to watch. This just reminds me of things that I didn't like. Yeah, exactly.

Like, oh, I remember a lot of my friends having a really hard time for a while because of things like this. People like this. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Good night. No. The other thing I was going to say, the wonderful trope of a man having to save a woman

happens over and over oh my god she's so much a damsel in distress for someone who should be like she's like a war area photographer and yet somehow she can't keep herself right oh yeah i love the scene where he's going through her portfolio he's like this sucks this sucks oh look a body yeah like i like that i'm dark like he seems like an emo kid is trying to tell you how dark he is it's so brooding because this was like supposed to be like the gritty batman reboot but it's like extremely campy but everyone is also horny like that seems like it's not really like that gritty like there's some art deco and everyone wants to fuck and like that's dark and i do like that vicky vale uh has sex with bruce wayne on the first date i'm just like yeah

girl you get it if you want it you go get it and no one will think any less of you then he kind of blows her off he does treat her like a dick and in in the scene when he goes to apologize to her and come out as Batman, this really fun thing happens where she's calling him out for being a dick and like, you lied to me, blah, blah, blah. And then he pushes her down onto the couch and is like, I'm just going to need you to shut up right now. Because did you know that when a man needs to express his feelings and be vulnerable he has to commit an act of domestic abuse first he's like all right now

i'm all warmed up yeah i've pushed you i've told you to shut up i've yelled at you now i can tell you that i'm bad and then he doesn't do it he like he talks all tough that's like he has a sudden moment of like machismo and bravado like i going to push you down and tell you what's up. And then he just flounders through people. So you know when a person's doing a thing and then you put on a pair of tights and you fight villains. And people do stuff like that. It's like, why make you be this dickish, domineering guy for a second if you're not even going to do anything with it? And then she kind of drops it.

There's that line where she's like like can't we ever love each other yeah i was like grow up kim vicky whatever yeah okay oh we haven't i didn't know if you were like saving this for a special moment but the scene at the end where you you know, Vicky gets a look in her eyes. She's in the Joker's arm. And I'm like, this is her moment. She's going to do something great. And then what she does is almost gives him a blowjob. So Batman can whack him.

I was like, no, that was your chance. And then she just starts going like. Yeah, she's like kissing his arm. Like his shoulder. But like's like kissing his arm. Like his shoulder. But like she's kissing his shirt. I love purple. And then he sinks down to like, I guess, pretend to start giving him a blowjob. I was laughing so hard.

Oh my god, it's so ridiculous. Because she was just very gingerly kissing his shirt. And you could just tell he was like rock hard. I don't know. He's nasty. And you could just tell he was like rock hard. No, I was not saving that for a special moment. And I'm glad you brought it up. I almost forgot about it. He like falls for it so hard.

Yeah. Yeah. And then she lunges at him like, I love purple. And he's like, oh. A very similar scene happens in Aladdin where Jasmine starts seducing Jafar. Yeah. Because she knows that Aladdin is there to, again, go rescue her. Because did you know women can't fend for themselves ever.

They always have to be saved. Jafar's kind of hot, though. And it's also that thing. You know he's disgusting. I would have a good Jafar. It's also like that same mentality that always makes like bad comic artists draw women with like no armor whatsoever. And it's like, and they always go, oh, well, they're skinned on the cloud because that way in the heat of battle, men will be so turned on by their bodies. They won't be able to fight them.

Like it's like the weirdest. Someone said that? That is a frequent argument. Like whenever you see like a female character who has like an exposed chest plate or like just has like like like a push-up bra made out of metal or whatever there's always some argument that's like oh it's designed to distract men and like everyone's like you know that in the heat of battle like no one's really thinking about their dicks at that moment right like they're all like pretty like revved up and ready to fight they're not going to stop and go oh well i want to have sex with this person so i will stop fighting like i'm all for using men's

horniness against them but the battlefield is not the place no it's probably not gonna work yeah but yeah considering these plots we have this whole like oh in the middle of of you having your victory i'm gonna suddenly seduce you like like really he's like holding her hostage in a bell tower after being pursued by batman and he's probably like yeah i mean your job is to blow me so let's do it like i love purple you do love purple so let's do this like i have some prince music to play goes down like she makes a whole and then batman says something quippy never dance with the devil in the pale moonlight it's just a creepy thing to be like oh hey here's the thing that you said to my parents when you killed them i'm gonna say it

while my girlfriend's getting all grindy on you right and very like a very long thing to say before you hit someone yeah he could have you know maybe moved that part of this movie bugs me a lot because it's just like an example of how this is not very good storytelling because joker i think it's in uh vicky vale's apartment he's like do you ever dance with the devil and the pale moonlight as he's like holding a gun to bruce wayne he's like what did you say he's like oh it's just something i say to all of my prey first of all it's not because we haven't seen this happen on screen yet so what are you talking about yeah and then he doesn't do that any other time yeah and then they flash back the one time he said it yeah so the flashback happens after that uh and

then only then do we realize how that why that is significant so it's just like no you gotta be a better screenwriter dude like this isn't good story it's also that's one of the things that that's not even from the comics like it is not the joker that killed bruce wayne's parents in the comics that's one of the things like people were real mad about when they like did it i think for this like movie isolated it makes sense because otherwise like what connects batman and the joker besides the fact that they're like both horny but not in love with kim baines yeah but i don't know yeah it's just it's just gross the joker also had that like weird long dick gun that he pulled out of his pants at one point i'm like that's not a useful weapon yeah i always

loved that as a kid though i don't know why i i think i wanted that like and then like i think doesn't even have the bang flag at the end of it at some point or like yeah yeah uh well back to um what women are wearing in comic book uh movies there are three at least three different times where vicky vale is wearing high heels that she has to take off because she's either fleeing or just needing to move about more comfortably. And, sure, women can wear whatever they

want, but high heels were designed by men and the patriarchy to slow women down when men want to chase them and assault them. I'm guessing. I don't know that that's what happened, but these are not sensible footwear. You can outwit a T-Rex in heels, so let's not accolade.

I'm also wearing my high-heeled Playboy sneakers today. I'm also wearing my high-heeled boots, but I could run in them. Hey, please attack us. I'm wearing high-heeled boots, sort of. Not as high, but there's a heel to them. Because we're killing it

we are we gotta be fly I just think that if she knows that there's a joker around maybe wear some more like some kids

suitable footwear to run away even simply just for her job it's the 80s Reeboks were really popular get some Reeboks like if you're an investigative photographer

you wouldn't you probably wouldn't wear that. Probably not. I totally get it when she's at the Wayne Mansion for the gala and she's wearing her weird prom dress, wedding dress thing that she has with the poofy sleeves. It's like a white dress. In any other party, it would be like, you're overdressed. You look like Glinda the Good Witch. She does. glinda the good witch we all we haven't even talked about my favorite scene which is when

batman asks vicky vale how much she weighs yeah which that alone does not bother me because people have this whole thing where it's like never ask a woman how much she weighs never ask a woman how old she is because that basically just implies that if a woman weighs too much or if she's too old she should be ashamed of herself and she should feel shame, which is not true at all, obviously. But what bothers me is that after that, after like the whole fight scene and he comes back around and he's like, oh, you weigh a little bit more than 108. Yeah. Which, number one, yeah, most adults do. Yeah.

That would be horrible if she weighed 108 she's very sick yes to weight a body shame her for no reason uh and three if she did lie about her weight it's only because women have to adhere to such impossible standards for beauty yeah batman why don't you take on the patriarchy instead of the Joker? Seriously. Again, if you could open two factories and you could also open a news network that focuses on women-centric issues. Why don't you start a magazine, Bruce?

Yeah. So yeah, that was my favorite thing to happen in the movie. Yeah, it's like sometimes I'm like, do you even like her? Why are you being real mean? Yeah, it's like sometimes I'm like, do you even like her? Like, why are you being real mean to her? Yeah, he does not treat her especially well either as Batman or as Bruce Wayne.

Yeah, like he lies to her. He blows her off. He calls her fat. I was just like, why do you guys... Vicky, come on. Have some pride. You can do better. Seriously. She must because she's not back in the sequel. True.

She just finds someone nice. Like in Kill Bill, whenever she was dating that murder Bill guy, and then she was like, you know what? I'm just going to settle down with this record store owner in Texas. Like a loser. Well, because she has a baby. Right. And you just have to put everything on hold whenever you have children.

You can't be an assassin when you have a baby. I like the idea of somebody who, I like actually, I kill Bill a lot. Oh, we talked about it in our first episode. I do like the idea of somebody who's like an international assassin. They'd be like, oh, but I can't believe that kid is one. I get the idea. It's like she like flips, but still. Yeah.

Those were all the things that I found. My favorite moment is when interesting like the joker and batman are like bickering all the time and it's like a part where he's like you made me well you killed my parents so you made me first so you made me and then i made it's like this i'm like really no one at the script it's like maybe we should do another pass in this scene like let's go ahead and do this again no okay we could just save some time because the movie is like a little bit too long. It's a little over two hours. Yeah. And then there's no need for that.

No, no. Although I do – the Joker is fun when he's not abusing women. Like when he's – which is true about a lot of sociopaths. But like when he comes in and he's like giving out money and like dancing in the street and like – When he dances? Yeah. I love him and i just like that like when the when he's dancing giving money like the idea is that he's like taking over this this like bicentennial festival that like they were going to cancel right and i just like there's

apparently no actual police force in this city because like he's not like he's just really never rolling down the street with giant balloons handing out money and no cops are like shooting the balloons or doing anything to stop him and they don't no cops are like shooting the balloons or doing anything to stop him and they don't know there's gas in the balloons yet so it's like there's actually no it doesn't make any sense why like the whole city's like yeah this guy just murdered a bunch of people and has been terrorizing us and he's like gone on tv and being like hey i'm poisoning all of your beauty products watch out for me but there are six cops on the scene who are willing to shoot at Vicky. Yeah.

They show up in very strange moments. Well, are those cops or are those his weird security guards? I think I thought they were cops, too. I'm like, wait, no, those might be his people. There are no cops in this movie. There's a bunch of weird henchmen that attack Batman. One just does a bunch of flips across the bell tower. I loved the flippy guy.

He was cool. But I mean, yeah, whenever Jack Nicholson was dancing I was like, I'm in. And then he would hit a lady and I'd be like, oh, that's why I don't like this guy. Oh, he's a jerk. Love a dancing man, though.

That's why Harley Quinn needs to be a poison ivy instead of a joker, because he's not abusive. They be so good for each other. They are good for each other. I wonder how Lego Batman is going to fare in terms of its treatment of its Lego lady characters. I can't wait to rip down

the gender inequalities of Lego Batman. As of yet, I haven't seen one that exists in the previews. I literally only see Will Arnett's Batman and Alfred. That's like the only two characters that seem to be in the previews. I've got to re-watch the trailer. Is there another female character in the Lego movie besides Olivia Wilde's cool... There's

the cat unicorn thing, right? Is that a... What's her face voice? Who's in Community? Alison Brie. There's also the off-screen little sister that has to also be allowed to play with toys. That's the only other...

I can't think of any other female character. Let's do the lego movie next have you seen it i watched it with a baby once well since because i'm sorry not a bit my friend i tried to watch it on a plane and i couldn't do it and then i watched it again later on hbo and i liked it more but like i think being right up in front of it on the plane it was like it was fast. I'm like, okay, I can't handle this right now. I can't watch stuff on planes. Yeah. So, Batman. Batman.

Sorry. Does anyone else have any final thoughts or closing words? This movie hates women. It really does. Everyone who dies is a woman except for Bruce's parents. A couple of the guys in the beginning, the mob guys who get killed and Bruce's dad, but like everyone that Joker killed. Oh, the guy who gets like burnt to his crisp and like doesn't ever think to maybe take his hand away from Joker's handshake.

He's like, no, I'm just going to let myself burn to death. He was freaked out. Okay. Sure. It was in the moment. The Joker's like, I'm glad you're dead. Yeah, because you killed him. Like we all get that you're glad he's dead.

Like why would we not think he was glad that he was dead? Can I read Tim Burton's quote about white people that's bad? Yes. Because it's like... Oh, it's really bad. Comically bad. Yeah. Okay, so this was after the Miss Peregrine's... Does anyone see his movie's name?

Nowadays, people are talking about it more. It meaning racial equality. But things either call for things or they don't. I remember back when I was a child watching the Brady Bunch and they started to get all politically correct, like, OK, let's have an Asian child and a black. I used to get more offended by that than just I grew up watching blaxploitation movies and i said that's great i didn't go like okay there should be more white people in these movies i was just like i can't

imagine him saying that first of all like not stuttering yeah because that's just like such an insane line he must be just so sheltered and weird yeah it's like congratulations on your easy life yeah someone pointed out and i'm talking about when that movie came out how like for as much as tim burton like prides himself on being this director who writes about like films movie about outsiders and unique weird they're all really just a version of tim burton like every like every scissor hands literally is Tim Burton with scissory hands. I'm weird. I'm weird. Why doesn't anyone want to kiss

me? He eventually found someone. But she left him. But she bailed on him. He had one that he cheated on and then one that left him. I'm weird. Let's talk about whether or not this movie passes the Bechdel test.

No. It doesn't. No. I don't think there's even a scene where two women with speaking roles are even in the same room together. I don't think so. No, I think that Vicky and then the girl with the Phantom of the Opera face are both in the same scene at one point. Yeah, you're right. They both speak, but not to each other.

Yeah. What scene is that? In the art gallery, when the Joker's showing her face. Oh, and she's like, I thought you were going to let me watch you improve your art. Yeah. Right, but she only talks to him. Because I was like, maybe it'll... But no, it fails.

It's a big fat fail. Yeah. It doesn't pass the Bechdel test. Not surprisingly. I bet George Schumacher's does. I bet it doesn't at all. I bet it does. But we can all watch it.

No. Which one? Batman Forever or Batman and Robin? Batman Forever, I think, only has one woman in it. It has two women that I can think of off the top of my head.

One of them is Nicole Kidman's character who's like a psychotherapist. That's true. And there's also this lady who's like the gossip columnist for Gotham. And she's in both

Batman Forever and Batman and Robin. And she's like, we're talkinguce wayne bruce is gotham's most eligible bachelor like that kind of lady and then um l mcpherson is is bruce wayne's girlfriend in batman and robin and then uma thurman is that way actually might only because it has batgirl and poison ivy there might be a scene where those two are fighting and talking about it. I think even then that line is the line where it's like I told Lady Frey's I pulled the plug

so I think she's still talking to Batgirl about Batman and Robin. Shoo, monger. Shoo. The Phantom of the Opera absolutely passes it. All the ballerinas are chatting all the time. About every witch thing. We should talk about it sometime. We can.

I'm very confused about your movie taste sometimes, Jamie. It's bad. Here's the thing. It's bad. Oh, the way we conclude every episode is to rate the movie in the context of its treatment of female characters on a scale of zero to five nipples i'll go first i give this movie one half of a nipple because uh and and and it's the nipple from i think george clooney's costume yeah the schumacher nip the schumacher nip so it's that one that movie like the the nipple and like butt shot bat suit thing that's the very

first set of shots in that movie like it was like literally nothing happening it and you just get a bunch of really close-up shots of like everything homoerotic about their suits i kind of like that that they're sort of objectifying the those men male body parts it was even like lily a shot where like they just like they both had their own version of it where they just put their butt towards the camera. It's just a fine butt shot. Nice. I was going to say, I have to re-watch those, but do I? I don't know.

I think if you went on YouTube, you could probably find just that sequence real quick. Charles Schumacher also directed Kiss from a Rose music video by Seal. Great video, great song. It's a tie-in to Batman Forever. Kaelin's actually going to murder me. I know. I think maybe one of the first movies I saw of his was Falling Down, which was an interesting premise, but not well executed.

Yeah, you heard it here first. Leave Joel alone. Kaelin Durante's hot takes about Falling Down. Jamie, what do you rate this movie on a scale of 0 to 5 nipples? I give it Michael Keaton's left nipple, which I imagine is hairless and has never been

hard. So one nipple? Yeah. Okay. How about you, Riley? I think I will give it a nipple, a half nipple as well, because at least it has women in it and like one of them one of them has a job like there's two women that have jobs three because there's three newscast there's two newscasters and there's vicky vale so those supermodels they

have jobs too that's true but they're not really in it like they're only in it as corpses so i don't count them like they're literally in it as photos of dead women and then there's also this weird creepy scene where the joker's like talking about his products and he has like a picture of their dead body with the with the mask i love that joker which is so creepy um so i can't get more than a half nips and i think the nip that i'm gonna go with is um boy whose nipple do i want to give it i'm gonna give it billy d williams nipple because uh he gets the shaft and later because uh for your beloved joel schumacher decides we can't't have Billy Dee Williams play Two-Face he has to replace him with uh with Tommy Lee Jones so he's like oh we need a white southern guy to play this character thank you for calling

him my Joel Schumacher though that did feel right um well uh Riley where can people find you online follow you on Twitter or stuff like that yeah you can find me on twitter i'm at rye silverman on twitter and i am riley silverman.com and i have a new podcast myself that's coming out it may not be out by time this episode airs but it will be soon and it's called the puppy episode and it is a a podcast that is a retrospective of the ellen degeneres sitcom from the 90s where she came out as gay so it's three queer ladies talking about what it's like being queer in 20 years later and what it was like when when we were younger and that show came on and like what it's like since then so it's it's interesting i think and it should be fun to do i'm excited for that yeah that's cool jamie you can find me on the internet

at hamburger fun you can find me at joel schumacher's house outside waiting oh and i forgot to mention i i write for a podcast called International Waters. I always forget to promote it because I'm not on the podcast, but I write it. Oh, is that Dave Holmes? Yeah, Dave Holmes is the host. Cool. And it's an international panel show that depicts American comedians versus British comedians in a pop culture battle royale. And I write for it.

I'm writing for it for about nine months, and I love writing for it. But I always forget to promote it when I'm on shows. But it's a great show, so listen to it. It's fun. Twice a month. Sorry, I didn't mean always forget to promote it when I'm on shows, but it's a great show. So listen to it. It's fun. Twice a month. Sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt your stalking. I'm so mad. I have a cartoon up on Cafe every

week as well. They're very funny. Thank you. Are they all about scissoring? They have been about scissoring in the past. You can... Hey, you should follow the Bechtel cast on Twitter. Oh, yeah.

At Bechtel cast. That's true. Like and subscribe. You can rate us on iTunes. We're on also, I think, Google now in addition to iTunes. Aristotle. Yeah.

Shout out to Aristotle. I did a little Oprah there. And you can email us too if you want. If you have any like, I don't know, questions or comments or contributions. Or pictures you drew of us. Pictures you drew if you have any like i don't know questions or comments or contributions or pictures you drew of us pictures you drew of us hanging out scissoring together i was gonna say it i didn't want to be the one we should i could make one oh if you're comfortable i've never been more comfortable of anything in my entire life okay good um and you can follow

me at caitlin dorante And I think that is it. Riley, thank you so much for being here and talking about Batman with us. Thanks for having me. And have a good time, everyone. Go see Lego Batman. Also, thanks, panties. Sponsor us. We need your sponsorship if you want.

Oh, Caitlin's going in on this hard. I didn't know what you said. I thought you said, thanks, panties. I was like, thanks, underwear, for making me not naked. You're there for thought you said thanks panties I was like thanks underwear for making me not naked you're there for us the period panties thanks

my closing thing is give 2004 Phantom of the Opera another chance you will not regret it cool cool bye

bye Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 2017, was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearths the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state.

Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. How do you feel about biscuits? Hi, I'm Akilah Hughes, and I'm so excited about my new podcast, Rebel Spirit, where I head back to my hometown in Kentucky and try to convince my high school to change their racist mascot, the Rebels, into something everyone in the South loves, the biscuits. I was a lady rebel. Like, what does that even mean? It's right here in black and white in print.

It's bigger than a flag or mascot. Listen to Rebel Spirit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In California during the summer of 1975, within the span of 17 days and less than 90 miles, or wherever you get your podcasts. a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer, this season on the new podcast, Rip Current. Hear episodes of Rip Current early and completely ad-free and receive exclusive bonus content by subscribing to iHeart True Crime Plus,

only on Apple Podcasts.