The Bechdel Cast - Jawbreaker with Crystal

Episode Date: September 26, 2024

On this episode, Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Crystal lick away all the layers of the movie Jawbreaker! Follow Crystal at @crystalwillseeyounow on all platforms!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Deal with it, Jamie. Oh, I was thinking that whole time, wouldn't it be awesome if that was in a Build-A-Bear? Like, that's where I wanted it. Because did you ever have like, I remember I had like a friend at school who it was like a teenager's dating thing and the guy gave the girl a build-a-bear that was like, I love you, Megan. I never had one as a youth, but when I had the whole sludge debacle and I got my gallbladder surgery, my friend Nikki gave me a build-a-bear and when you like press its little paw,

she had it make meowing sounds. So it's a teddy bear that is like, meow. You used to be able to, I mean, it sounded horrible, but you could put your own voice in it, much like the check-offs card that we have in Jawbreaker. That's my one have in Jawbreaker. That's my one note for Jawbreaker. The rest is perfect. The rest is flawless.

It should have been a Build-A-Bear. Agree. Yeah, we should start putting more murder confessions in Build-A-Bears. I'm gonna file that away. Honestly, I think we should record the Bechdel cast on Build-A-Bears. And just distribute it that way.

Yeah. We're getting back into tangible media. The digital revolution has gone too far. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. If you want to hear any more episodes of the Bechdel cast, you have to, I don't know, we'll send them to you. We'll send you. It would get really expensive really fast. Yeah. But one of us will confess to a murder in every episode and that's the Vectal Cast Guarantee. Whoa. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. I think my favorite line in this movie is, you know how girlfriends kidnap their girlfriends on their birthday? Well, we did that. You're like, mm-hmm. Yeah. Time old tradition that we all know and love. Oh, it's the best. I guess welcome to the Bechtel cast. I derailed your very funny intro immediately. No, I loved it.

Well, I'm Jamie Lott. I'm Caitlin Durante, and this is the Bechtel cast, our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point. And you know, we have limited time today. If you want to know what the Bechtel test is, listen to another episode. Look it up. I feel like we just have to get right into it today. Truly. I mean, spoiler alert, don't worry about the Bechtel test for this movie. There are women and people of marginalized genders talking to each other the entire movie and it's all horrible.

So, a lot of fun passes in this movie. Very much so. The movie we're talking about today is Jawbreaker, 1999, called Classic. Long time request. It's like a request we've been getting since the beginning of the show. And our guest today, returning guest,

you know Crystal as a drag artist who's known for RuPaul's Drag Race UK Season 1. Ever heard of it? And more recently, for successfully suing right-wing troll Lawrence Fox, it's Crystal. Hi! Welcome back! Thank you.

I'm so happy to be back. Oh my gosh. You've gone through a legal saga since you last appeared on the show. Congratulations. I sure have. Putting the lit in litigious as they say. I loved that. That was great.

So you've brought us Jawbreaker. What is your history and relationship with the movie? Hmm. What is your history in relationship with the movie? Hmm, I've been trying to remember that all week, but I definitely, I think I saw this movie when I was around 20, but like I would have seen it post Mean Girls as kind of like one of those movies that you get shown when you come out. It's like someone sits you down and is like you're gonna need to watch this and Heather's and you're gonna need to watch but I'm a cheerleader and we're gonna watch the first season of ABFAB and then you'll be complete as a homosexual man. It's a part of the starter kit that's distributed. Yeah, it gets handed out along with a bottle of poppers and

Madonna's greatest hits, I don't know. So that was kind of when I saw it and then I've watched it probably a few times in the intervening period but it's been a long time since I watched it again and I did that yesterday which was interesting. Basically, I suggested this movie just because I'm desperate to hear what you both think about it. I kind of need, I need some outside, I need some outside inputs. Honestly, I was relying on you to be like, what do you think about this? Because I don't know what to make of it exactly. We get to the bottom of it today. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jamie, what is your relationship with the movie?

Weirdly had not seen it. I don't know why it had been missing me for so many years. I love this genre of movie. I love a violent clique. I love it. Yeah, I'd never seen it. And it was, I mean, it's tricky. I like it. I like it.

I think it is very funny. It will talk about, cause there's been like two oral histories written about Jawbreaker in the same three year span, who can say why? But I do think it's very funny that the director of this movie is very defensive about being like, it's not Heathers,

and you're like, Darren. But not only that, it's like, it's not Heathers. But what's this Mean Girls all about? It's so derivative of my idea. I know, and he's like, Mean Girls is ripping me off. I was like, Darren. Everything I read from the director, he was cracking me up because I was just like, sir, come on.

But the movie itself, I mean, I thought it was like, it's very dark. I thought it was like super funny at times. And then other, there's, I don't know. For a lot of this movie, I was thinking was like super funny at times and then other there's I don't know for a lot of this movie I was thinking about like wow I really have to rewatch heathers, but I feel like John breaker does Mostly does a thing that I appreciate Where it's like women are running the show the whole time There is one plot boyfriend who I think we could have done without but outside of Zack

I do like that. This is a world mostly devoid of Men at all in terms of like power influence And I mean you can't hate too hard on a movie that features detective Pam Greer doing some like career worst detective work Doing just a really bad job. Pam Greger's doing great. Yeah, always. But her character is useless. Pam Greger's hair especially.

Oh my gosh. The bangs. Doing the most. The bangs. My headcanon is that she is like, the cops are fucked, ACAB, I'm deliberately doing a bad job. I'm deliberately going to not solve this murder. She actually just knew what was coming from Marilyn Manson and just wanted to lock him

up. Oh my gosh. That plot point specifically ages stunningly well. You're like leave him there. Leave him there. Yeah. No need to revisit that. I honestly didn't even recognize. I wasn't until I was like reading through the fun facts about this

because I remember it like, I don't know, he's prominently featured in the opening credits and you're like, oh, and then at the end I was like, I don't think I know what he looks like without his like makeup, right? Because he's not in his makeup in the movie and you're just like, that it? Yeah, I guess that is Marilyn Manson. What a bummer. What a bummer to have to see him. Anyways, hadn't seen it. I have mixed feelings about it,

but not feelings that are so negative. I mean, it looks amazing. You have the same costume designer as like, Romy and Michelle in Clueless. There's a lot to love about it, but I'm excited to get into it. Caitlin, had you seen this movie before? Okay. I don't know. I thought I had seen it the whole way through. I had a friend my freshman

year of college, shout out Tina, who exposed me to some of my still favorite movies. She showed me Josie and the Pussycats. She showed me American Psycho. A few others, but she had this very eclectic taste in movies and some of it was like, you know, fun mainstream bops that I just hadn't seen. Some of it were your things like Jawbreaker, which have a cult following. Some were movies that most people have never heard of,

such as Happiness of the Catecholies. Like if any Bechdel heads out there are familiar with the Happiness of the Catecholies, please let me know. Anyway, all this to say that she showed me Jawbreaker, or at least I thought we watched it all the way through together, because I have the image of the trunk popping and Liz in the trunk dead with, like,

the bulge of the jawbreaker in her throat. Like, that image... Whoever was doing the practical effects in this movie... Ooh. ...like, truly one of the most bone-chilling corpses. Yes. And that image was, was like seared into my brain and my memory for all time. So I was like, of course I've seen this movie.

I remember that very well. But that happens in the first five minutes and I didn't remember any of the rest of the movie. So I don't know if we like started watching it and then we just started like talking over it and not really paying attention. I don't know if I did sit through it and just didn't remember anything except for that one image. I don't really know. I feel like you'd remember the last shot as well if you'd seen it all.

Right, you would think. Yeah. Those are the two that like are the most memorable, the top and tail. For sure. The middle, what happens? Who's, I'm still not sure. Yada yada, Zach. I will say that that scene that's like a flashback when like Rose McGowan is having sex with Marilyn Manson and the dead bodies under the bed, I was like, well I kind of remember that too. So maybe I just, I simply don't know how much of this movie I've seen all this to say I've had some exposure to it before, but not much.

And watching it this time for the podcast was basically like I was watching it for the first time. So I'm excited to talk about it again. I really don't know quite what to make of it, both from a like personal taste point of view and a like talking about it for the podcast point of view. But again, we're gonna crack the case. We're gonna get to the bottom of it. I can just feel it. We're gonna get to the center of it.

Oh, see what I did. Like the jaw breaker center. I wanted to go get some like gobstoppers to be, you know, rattling around in my mouth during this recording, but. I've never understood the appeal of those candies. I'm a soft candy girl all the way. It's candy corn season. Wait, do you like candy corn?

Sorry to say that was so much judgment, but it is the most disgusting. That was so bitchy the way you said that. Well, I am the Rose McGowan of this episode. Yeah, you're like, grow up, bitch. There is like a little baby. I do, I love the pumpkins. I just bought some. The amount of like bad for you things I've had before,

9.30 in the morning, I'm finishing a root beer. Yeah, I'm gonna stop talking about personal taste at this time, I'm realizing. Yeah, sorry to be so mean about it, but candy corn is objectively the worst thing that was ever invented. You're out of your mind. That is a really sick thing. I'm not wading into this one.

You two are in Europe. Fair. Well, I guess we got to talk about Jawbreaker. Yeah, let's take a quick break and then we'll come back for the recap. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel de Lilla. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unearths

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assassination attempts, separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today. And these are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a U.S. president. One was the protege of infamous cult leader

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I've been thinking about you. I want you back in my life. It's too late for that. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. One session, 24 hours. EPM 110, 120. She's terrified.

Should we wake her up? Absolutely not. What was that? You didn't figure it out? I think I need to hear you say it. That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. This machine is approved and everything? You're allowed to be doing this?

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So we open on voiceover narration from a Teen girl talking about this group of the four most popular girls at her high school. They are Marcy played by Julie Benz Julie played by Rebecca Gayheart Courtney played by Rose McGowan, who is the queen bee and the meanest one of the group. And the nicest one, the most like quote unquote perfect one is Liz Perr, played by Charlotte Ayanna. Now the narrator who is a character who we will soon meet

named Fern Mayo, played by Judy Greer. Great character name, I think. Oh my God. Fern Mayo, great. Early Judy Greer role, great. But Fern Mayo seems to be infatuated and obsessed with Liz Perr, saying how she dreams of what it would be like to be Liz

because unlike these four girls Fern is not popular she goes unnoticed by her peers she's you know nerdy so then on Liz's 17th birthday she's kidnapped from her bed a huge jawbreaker the titular jawbreaker in fact. Kind of a character in the story when you think about it. Okay, also when you think about it, it passes the Bechtel test when this jawbreaker is shoved into the mouth of one of the characters.

Silencing women, interesting. I think it's like intellectual discourse to be sucking on a jawbreaker. So that's my take on the matter. Classic non candy corn eater take. Okay, so a jawbreaker is shoved into the mouth of Liz and covered with duct tape. And then she's thrown into the trunk of a car. And then we get a reveal that the three kidnappers are actually just her three best friends, Marcy, Julie,

and Courtney, who are playing a little surprise birthday prank on Liz. And this is a thing you both did, right? Like, this is all teen girls have kidnapped their friends. All teen girls. In more and more elaborate ways every year. Right, right, right. And more dangerous. I will say that one year, and I don't remember, this would have been I think my 16th or 17th birthday, my friends, they didn't kidnap me.

I knew they were coming, but they did then blindfold me and drive me to, I forget which mall, but a mall a few towns over. And then we went to, I want to say Spencer's Gifts because I had never been to Spencer's Gifts before. Wow. A little naughty, Caitlin. I know. I went into a Spencer's, there's a Spencer's Gifts on the third floor of the Glendale Galleria. You have to really navigate carefully to find it. Yeah, I've never... I don't know about this. I've been to the Glendale Galleria and I've... is Spencer's Gifts a sex shop?

No, it's more... it's like the idea of a sex shop. Right, they sell straws that are shaped like penises. Yeah, it's more like... it's like a jokey shop for like dude bros. Uh huh, yeah. It's what a 12 year old, well I don't know, there's a lot of stuff for, they've really diversified their perverted things, I can say, having been there recently. Anyways, yeah. Wait, so you were brought blindfolded to a Spencer's gift.

Yeah, and then they took off the blindfold and I was like, oh, this is cool. I actually probably really enjoyed it at the time as a whatever 16 year old. I used to love getting in the trunk of my friend's cars and scaring them. Okay, I've never done that. Like after dance rehearsal, classic hilarious joke,, I would, yeah, I was the captain brag. And there was this girl who's a year younger and I would just get in the trunk of her car because she'd always leave her car unlocked. I'd get in the trunk of her car and surprise her when she put her stuff away. Wow. I feel like that could have gone

really badly for you. Yes. Yes. But it's, but I want everyone to know that I'm willing to put my body on the line for a bit. Uh huh. I mean, I've seen it before. I'll see it again. I'm sure. Yeah. I mean, if I make it, we'll see.

Anyways, they do kill their friend. And this is, I think that's like one of the best jokes of the entire movie that they're like, of course everybody does this. This is what girls do. It is very funny. Right. So what happens, they throw in the trunk with no nefarious intentions or anything. But when they open the trunk, they discover

that Liz is dead. Apparently she had swallowed and choked on the jawbreaker, which was Courtney's idea to shove into Liz's mouth. So Courtney is the most culpable in Liz's death. They start panicking. They try to figure out what to do. Julie wants to go to the police and tell them about this incident, which is effectively an accident, you know, they didn't mean for her to die. But Courtney knows it's her fault and she doesn't want to get in trouble. So she coerces her friends into just going along

with this plan to keep it a secret to go to school and pretend like everything is normal. Courtney suggests that to get them off the hook, they put Liz back in her bed and make it seem like she was raped and gagged with a jawbreaker. And that's how she died. Unhinged. Again, Julie tries to object, but Courtney is like, now we're doing this.

It is so wild to me. One of the more bizarre elements of the jawbreaker world that I feel like Heathers and Mean Girls does, and this doesn't, is give you a sense of the other people in this world. You meet a couple a sense of like the other people in this world you meet a couple of characters outside of the main characters but it's like with Courtney especially you're like where did this girl come from like I feel like part of the reason that the Heathers and Regina George are so like

they're horrible but you at least know that they have like some like core wound and you meet Regina George's mom you You're like, oh, of course she's fucked up. Look at like this environment, but Courtney just like exists in this evil void. It's weird. But everything about it is very dreamlike, like the fact that Fern is somehow the captain of the cheerleading squad, but When did that happen? How and when? When did that happen how and when when did that happen and who was involved in that and like it all exists in this kind of like the way a dream almost works where you're like I'm popular now so now these things have

happened to me but we didn't have to go from a to B we just magically transported ourselves there yeah there are many scenes that feel like they should have taken place on screen that just happened off screen, such as like Julie deciding not to be their friends anymore, which is about to happen. You think you would have like seen a confrontation where Julie's like, I'm not gonna be a part of this, but that just, suddenly she's like not walking

with the popular girls anymore. It's just visually communicated to us by the fact that she starts wearing denim. And that's like how we understand that she's no longer friends with them. Yes, exactly. Is your friend wearing denim? Check on them. Right. They might have accidentally killed someone and don't know what to do.

Okay, so they go to school and at school, a teacher named Ms. Sherwood played by Carol Kane asks Courtney to pick up Liz's assignments at the end of the day, knowing that Liz isn't in school, though she doesn't know why, of course, but Courtney is late in picking up the assignments. But the narrator Fern Mayo happens to be right there. So Mr. Wood asks Fern to take the assignments to Liz's home. The other girls find out about this, so they race to Liz's house before Fern can get there to set this like alleged rape scene up. It's very chaotic. They're kind of freaking out.

Sorry, this is, I was just thinking about Carol Kane. I was like, where have we seen Carol Kane play a kooky teacher before? And the answer is Confessions of a Teenage Drama Queen. Oh my gosh, you're right. If anyone else, I was like, I've seen her play this exact character and it's a couple of years later.

In a Lindsay Lohan role that is not Mean Girls. But did come out in 2004. Makes you think. The Matrix. Yeah. Yes. Okay. So anyway, they're setting up this scene.

It's very chaotic. Julie finds this birthday card with a recording of Liz's voice that's saying, what are you doing to me? And then Fern comes into the house and overhears Courtney saying that she killed Liz. Then Fern sees Liz's dead body. Which is looking rough. So bruised. I don't know how it got bruised after her death. I don't know. That jawbreaker was like full of battery acid or something. Yes. So Courtney coerces Fern into not telling, saying that if she doesn't rat her out, they'll

turn her into one of the pretty and popular girls just like them, which is what Fern has always dreamed of. So they give Fern a makeover, they give her a new name, Violette, and everyone thinks she's a new student. No one realizes that this is actually Fern who has been transformed. Meanwhile, Julie has left the group off screen. She wants nothing to do with this. She bought a jacket at the Gap and she's just finished.

And for some reason, another one of the more dream logic-y elements of this movie is like, at some point I really don't understand why Julie doesn't just tell. I know it like- Because Courtney threatens her. Courtney says they'll all gang together and say it was all It was all Julie's. Yeah, it was Julie who did it. Yes, that's right Which I understand is scary, but I'm also like if Courtney's outed as a murderer. She can't do shit like anyways

But yeah, I guess that's why Julie stays quiet for a while. Meanwhile, Courtney teaches Fern slash Violette how to be cool and popular like them and Violette is loving it. Then Liz's parents come home from whatever trip they were on, discover their daughter's body and call the police. Enter Detective Pam Grier. So we've got several Greers. We've got Judy Greer, we've got Pam Grier. David Alan Grier though, where is he?

Nowhere to be seen. Nowhere to be seen. I'm glad you brought that up. Also my other big criticism of the movie that it lacks David Alan Grier. Come on, Darren. It's the rule of threes. Exactly. I'm Googling David Alan Greer now.

Oh, you might know him from Jumanji. Okay. You might know him. He had a show, his own show for awhile that I think was called Dag, which are his initials. And then he's in other stuff that I don't remember anyway. Well, I'm with you. Thank you so much. Okay, so Julie starts hanging out with this guy named Zack. She also tries to connect with Fern slash Violette, presumably to kind of help her get

out from under Courtney's clutches. It seems like they used to be pretty good friends in elementary school. But again, Courtney's tyranny is not letting that happen. Then there's a scene where Courtney is fooling around with her jock boyfriend whose name is Dane, I think, and then makes him fillet a popsicle. And that's that scene. I guess we'll circle back to that. Yeah. I guess. Then Detective Pam Greer starts questioning Courtney, Marcy, and Julie, but they deny

everything. Meanwhile, people are noticing and wanting to befriend Violet and still no one realizes that she's Fern Mayo who's been transformed. Courtney tells her she needs a boyfriend and she picks someone out for Violet. Zach Tartak, the guy who Julie has been seeing, he's a drama kid. So Courtney signs Violette up for the school play and she like gets cast in the lead role. She's also the lead cheerleader now. Again, we don't know quite how these things happen. Yeah. I think, Crystal, I think you're right. The dream logic is just like, oh yeah, she just becomes what everyone thinks of being popular and like,

don't worry about how she's, don't worry about the fact that she's 25 years old. It's fine. Right. Well, also this movie is a satire and you can get away with a lot of things when you're doing satire. So anyway, then Courtney goes back to detective Pam Grerier and tells her that Liz was actually into some very kinky stuff. You'd never know from her sweet and innocent demeanor, but she used to go to bars and take

home random guys. And one of them must have gotten too rough. And that's why she's dead. Courtney is so diabolical, just slut shaming from like beyond the grave. Right. Because as she's saying this to Detective Pam Grier, we are seeing a flashback of Courtney doing exactly what she's describing Liz to have done, where Courtney goes into a bar, she picks up Marilyn Manson, who was Rose McGowan's then boyfriend. And she's like, do you want to be in the movie?

And he's like, sure. So Marilyn Manson is there and she takes him to Liz's house and has sex with him on Liz's bed while Liz's dead body is hiding under the bed or has been hidden under the bed. It's not like her dead body got up and hid there. So like, yeah, I was confused about the timeline of that for a while. Like, did she do that? So she did that before Liz's parents got home.

I think so, yeah. Seems like there was maybe an extra night. Was it the day she died, maybe? She did it that night? Yeah, I think she went back. I was reading in the production about this, like that sex scene in particular, like nearly got the movie an NC 17 ratings. I think that they like maybe the editing around

it is a little confusing so that people could see the movie. Right. Yeah. So it's at this point that Violet starts just kind of wiling out with all this newfound popularity and power. She gets a guy to give her a red corvette convertible. Again, she's been cast as the lead in the school play and tries to seduce Zack, but it doesn't work. And then Zack goes to Julie and is like, who's that Violette girl? She's weird. What's up with her? And then Julie proceeds to tell him about the whole situation, how Courtney killed Liz and Fern Mayo found out about it.

So Courtney gave Fern all this social status and transformed her into Violette so that she wouldn't tell anyone about this death, this murder. And then out of nowhere, this random guy has become the moral compass of the entire movie. You're like, Zzzzzzzzzzzzz Julie. So she agrees and they try to find evidence, like the Polaroid photo that Courtney snapped of Liz when they opened the trunk, but they can't find the photo anywhere. They look really hard though.

They don't look hard at all. They stand in the parking spot and they're like, well, I don't know. Meanwhile, honestly though, I don't know. Meanwhile, I honestly though, I don't know that Pam Greer's character would have done much better. I don't. She's like, yeah, some guy,

we've got Marilyn Manson in custody and yeah, another hard day's work. Yeah. It's close. Yeah. Right, so what happens next is Julie ends up going to Detective Pam Greer anyway and is about to tell her what happened.

But Pam Greer is like, well, we already have Marilyn Manson in custody, so don't worry about it. And in retrospect, yeah, keep him there. Right. But there's also an evil Rose McGowan character on the loose. Right. So Julie realizes that Courtney must have done this thing where she went back to Liz's house and framed Marilyn Manson more or less. So it's up to her to take Courtney

down. Meanwhile, Courtney doesn't like how popular and beloved Violette has become. So she decides to expose Violette by posting all these photos of her when she was still Fern Mayo. I love that the breaking point for her is Violette sitting on a car and like dancing. She's like, that's it. This has gone too far. Violette's bobbing on the hood of a car.

It's so funny that like, that has everyone, again, just like the idea of hero worship, because you're like, woo hoo, I'd love to, oh. When Judy Greer comes to school with a vanity plate that says bitch and also a t-shirt that says bitch, I'm like, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Those scenes, I'm like,

this is the greatest movie ever made and then like based on the Judy Greer aesthetics alone It's great for sure Courtney is in the bathroom with Marcy and Marcy's like she's gone too far She's out of control and Courtney's like no everything's fine. And then literal seconds later. She's like this is it We're over just because we have to kill seconds later she's like this is it we're over just because we have to kill violets on the hood of her car she's like you're you were right this is all it's all gone too far I must destroy her the fact that like violet is basically like Courtney's Frankenstein's monster I guess she's Courtney's monster and then she decides that she has to kill her own monster. That is at least

you know different from Heather's in Mean Girls where it's I guess if we're thinking Mean Girls this movie also was like I gotta rewatch Mean Girls. Like Katie is kind of Janice's monster she's not really Regina's monster. She's kind of like planted in there by the uncool kids. Right. But this one is just the calls coming from inside the clique. They're like, you're just the new girl. More like clueless, I guess, where well, Alicia Silverstone is like, Hey, Brittany Murphy. Right. But like, Alicia Silverstone is nice and not mean, like Courtney is.

Did you see the weird, I think it was like a TikTok thing or maybe an Instagram thing where Alicia Silverstone was recently like walking around and ate poisonous berries, like out of someone's yard. She was like, it's so funny, Kayla. It's funny cause she's okay. Okay.

But like, I don't know where she is, but she's just, she's like making this like really puckered face. And she's like, hey guys, I just ate these berries off of someone's tree and they taste weird. Can anyone tell me, am I sick? Like it was so bizarre. And then she just went quiet for like 24 hours and I was like, is she dead? Is she dead from berries?

Thankfully the berries didn't get her and then once everyone found out they were alive, they're like, why would you just eat berries off of like, do you have no self-preservation instincts? It's wild. Well there is that like, I don't remember what it's called, but like, there's this movement where people are like, yeah, we should eat the food that's on the trees grow, especially in like LA, where they're like, avocado trees, there's citrus trees all over. And people are like, we should be allowed to eat this, right food. And so maybe she's just like a part of that movement. She's like, I'm going to eat the street food.

But also like no one's like, and you should eat food off the trees and not confirm what it is before you eat it. Well right, the people who are doing that know what they're eating. All berries famously fine. According to her I guess. It's like a parable anyways. Anyway okay so what happens in the movie is that Courtney exposes Violet as the nerdy unpopular Fern Mayo and everyone is like ew yucky gross and Fern freaks out so hard that she passes out. Been there.

But Julie and Zach come to Fern's aid and they team up to take Courtney down. But they don't really know how until Julie's mom is like, hey, Liz's mom dropped off some stuff that she wanted you to have. And one of the things is that birthday card with Liz's voice recording, except now it has a recording of Courtney saying, I killed Liz, I killed the teen dream, deal with it. Which does explain earlier, I was like, why are they, why? And it's like, oh,

because that's the evidence. It needs to be really, it has to be admissible in the court of Pam Greer. What should that be? Yes. So that night is prom because every teen movie has to end in prom. So Julie, Zach and Fern go to prom. Zach rigs up the sound system to play that recording of Courtney's confession over her prom queen speech when she inevitably wins prom queen. And everyone hears this and they're like, oh my God, Courtney is such a bitch for murdering Liz. And they're throwing their corsages and stuff

at her in a scene that reminds me of Cersei Lannister in Game of Thrones. Oh yeah. I don't remember what happens in that show, even though I've watched every episode. She's been disgraced as queen or something and so everyone's throwing stuff at her as she walks through the town naked.

And I was like, it's like that. It's like that. I was thinking of the aesthetic of that looks a lot like the cover of that whole album. Yeah, live through this. Yes. And actually Courtney is named after Courtney Love according to Darren.

Okay, Darren. Maybe that's on purpose. I see you Darren. And it's obviously also very Carrie, isn't it? Very Carrie. Yeah. God, I mean, Caitlin, I know you hate a very Carrie, isn't it? Very Carrie. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

God, I mean, Caitlin, I know you hate a prom scene. This one worked for me though. At least it ended. I hate when the prom scenes when they end well, I am bored. When they end terribly, I kind of. You're like, yeah, I don't automatically hate any movie that ends in prom or any movie that ends in a wedding. I know I like bring it up a lot, but it's more that I hate that it's become a trope

because writers don't have enough imagination to think of another way to end a movie. But if there's like narrative purpose for it or it makes sense in the context of the story, fine. In the context of all that is. But the point here is that Julie got her ass and Courtney is disgraced and her empire is over the end and you're just not supposed to think about like so are Julie and Marcy on the hook for this at all? I don't know. Doesn't matter

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make your brains happy and tune into Part-Time Genius. Listen to Part-Time Genius on the iHeart radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Yeah, where do we want to start? What's jumping out? Oh, I feel like there's so many ways to cut this cookie. I don't know. I forgot how bizarre it is. Just visually, like the way it's edited, the way the the dialogue is there's so many things about it that are very Unique and that was fun to watch

Mm-hmm. It's more visually stylized than a typical teen Comedy. Yeah, I guess it owes something to Heather's for all of that like this over stylized costume and the bizarre affected speech Mm-hmm. I think a lot of this movie kind of doesn't work but it's almost got like so many other things that are so great that they've kind of balanced themselves out but I could imagine watching this especially if you're not like queer or have never really been in any way exposed to queer stuff that you might just be like, this is a terrible

movie. This sucks. I don't feel that way, but I can kind of understand why you might. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I feel like a lot of what was helpful, like just learning more about Darren Stein and like, he was first of all in his 20s when he made this movie, which always makes me feel very depressed about my own life. But this is the second movie he had made another movie called I believe Sparkler before this and was very inspired by Heathers,

even though years on he was like, who's that? What? And I don't know. I mean, he's like an openly queer filmmaker in the 90s, which was not a common thing. And going back into it, there's two oral histories, one was in Vice, one was in Entertainment Weekly. I'm mostly pulling from the Vice one, since it is kind of redundant between the two.

But the fact that, and Rose McGowan sort of speaks to this point that he was sort of pigeonholed as a queer filmmaker and like sort of is like, oh, well, he's like on the fringes. But really, the only reason that that was was because he was openly gay at a time where it was just less common to be. So I don't know. I mean, like I can appreciate where he's coming from.

The movie looks amazing. And there's things I don't know, I mean, like I can appreciate where he's coming from. The movie looks amazing. And there's things, I don't know, I wanted to get your opinions on this where I kept going back and forth on like, I wish I knew more about these characters, but then I feel like, do I wish I knew more about these characters? I'm not sure, because it's like the Courtney example

of like, she is just absolutely evil. We don't know why, we don't know how she got there, we don't know how she maintains it, but she just is. And I'm like, do I want more? I don't know. There's movies where you get more and I like them, but I don't know. What did you think of like how the characters are set up? Because you just get so little about their lives outside of this situation. I would say, yeah, they're all kind of archetypes, aren't they? They're like caricatures, they're arched, they're not like anyone you actually know. And I saw a quote from Rose McGowan

saying that, you know, if this movie were made now, you would have Courtney's backstory and she wouldn't be allowed to just be evil for no reason. It would have to be like the story behind it. And so I kind of like that she's just a villain just for villain's sake and it's all quite cartoony. But then the movie also tries to give you some emotional beats which then don't work, I think because these characters aren't kind of real. And so like the relationship that Julie ends up having with Zack, you're like what the hell is this about? The scene where she's like at the pool and she's thinking about Liz, were you friends? Because, I don't know, it seems like the day she died you started dating someone, so I don't know how sincere your relationship

really was. Yeah, so there's kind of problems as a result of these characters being kind of underdeveloped, but then there's also benefits to it as well, which is kind of the cartooniness of it, I think. STACEY Right. I was also thrown by the, like, Liz and Julie were best friends because, and I feel like it's stated after that scene too, where she's like, I think she tells Zach, you know, I was closest with Liz. You're like, news to me? Didn't know. STACEY Right. Well, because Fern Mayo's voiceover is like, Courtney and Liz were best friends,

but Courtney hated her actually because she was so perfect and sweet. And it's just like, what is going on here? And then to me, Julie felt kind of all over the place where you think she's gonna be a Courtney type in the sense that she's mean and dismissive of her peers who are less popular and have less social status because you see that image of them walking down the hall at the beginning and Fern Mayo has like dropped her books and they're scattered all over the floor and you see Julie just like stepping over her very callously.

But then as the story goes, you find out that they used to be friends in elementary school and they'll say hi to each other, where Courtney will be like, get out of the bathroom. This is our space and like is like extra cruel to Fern. And then, you know, Julie is the one with the moral compass and she's the one who's like, I'm not gonna be a part of this. We should tell someone. She's the one who tries to befriend Fern. So I didn't really have a handle. I feel like a little inconsistent in the way that she was characterized, but maybe that's

just like part of the satire. Again, like satire kind of, in this case, at, like muddles the story and the characterization, I feel. Yeah, I was confused by Julie. I think Julie's character maybe worked the least well for me because I agree with you, Crystal. Like, Courtney being a vortex of evil, like, at least it didn't really, like whatever the most evil thing to do in the scene is,

Courtney is going to do that. Or perhaps think of something so evil, you yourself could not conceive of it, like all of the horrible things she does to Liz immediately after her death. But Julie, yeah, Julie being positioned as like, quote unquote, the good girl. I mean, there was like good girl, bad girl,

broad tropes that were presented, but I didn't feel like really, I feel like they were just presented. It didn't even feel like they were really being satirized where like Courtney is hypersexual and kinky and she's the world's worst person. And then when it comes up later in the movie that actually Liz was a virgin, like, I don't know.

I just feel like it's these classic ways of characterizing who is good and who is bad and how it's connected to promiscuity in a way that like some parts of the movie felt like, I feel like the Fern Violette story, that felt like clearly satirical, you know what he's going for, but there were other ways that the girls were talked about

or like their morality was evaluated that felt like really undercooked and just here's this trope. The good girl was a virgin and the bad girl has a lot of sex and those elements. And I feel like Julie would often sort of be involved in those of like she's dating a nice guy from the drama club, she's good. Or even though if you like, like you're

both saying, if you look at what Julie does, you're like, is she good? Like, that's kind of one of the issues when you're making a movie that's very pastiche-y. And it's like referencing Greece and it's referencing Rocky Horror and it's referencing Heathers. And you know, how do you avoid those pitfalls? Right're winking and nodding to those things, but you're also trying... I don't know, how do you make it also fresh or avoid the slut-shaming ideas or making a movie that's almost entirely white in 1999? Lots of things like that, that you're like, you forgot to think about this. You know?

Yeah, there's just elements of it. I mean, it was like, he was like 28 about this, you know? Yeah, yeah. There's just elements of it. I mean, it's like, he was like 28 when he made the movie. But it does feel kind of undercooked in a lot of areas, or just kind of confusing, where it felt like the style was eclipsing me understanding what was happening in the story. Which also, if I'm not watching a movie for this show, it's totally fine. But yeah, I did find it a little tricky. The stuff that did work for me was, you know, and it's like a very dark view of teenage girls, but the

like narrative of like Fern of like, how much are you willing to compromise yourself to be socially accepted? And I mean, that I felt like the style and the script were cooking together. I don't know, what did everyone make of Fern? She's evil, I think she's also evil and I feel like she and Julie kind of scoot out of the story, like we did it. And you're like, you guys are also terrible.

Like, Fern could be on the hook for withholding information from the authorities. Right, and it seems like she's just as corrupt as Courtney potentially, but just like, hasn't been given the power and social status to enact any horrible, evil things. But yeah, she's seduced by the idea of popularity and status and she doesn't hesitate to take it. And only when she's exposed as like being a fraud and oh, she's actually Fern Mayo, and she's kind of left with no choice, but to, and she doesn't even like revert back

to her old style, she like maintains the aesthetic at least of Violette. She's like, I'm keeping the dye job. Fuck this class, I'm keeping the dye job. They kept complimenting her hair, like different characters, and I'm like, I mean, I guess that was a popular style in the late 90s, but I was like, um. I feel like, I mean, I guess that was a popular style in the late 90s, but I was like, um...

I feel like this movie is intentionally kind of takes place out of time because it's like the outfit we see Fern in at the beginning of the movie felt the closest to actual 90s grunge aesthetic clothes. When did Never Been Kissed come out? I think also 99. Okay, because I feel like Drew Barrymore is basically dressed as Violette in that movie. Everyone's like, what the fuck are you wearing? Which is a more accurate take on what they're all dressed like.

Like imagine seeing a girl in a hot pink rubber skirt at your high school. You'd be like, this is weird. But I love, I mean, obviously the costuming is incredible, but it helps to show that like this isn't real. What you were saying about Violette though, like I totally agree. I think there's a lot of hand waving like she's learned her lesson and now she's good again. We don't actually see any of that character development take place. She just gets knocked over and has a bump on her head and like that's enough and we're supposed to just accept that she's like learned her lesson I guess. But I think she is a really interesting character and I think

there's a lot of the drag queen in her and I can see a lot of myself in her where when you're a gay man and you're 20 you idolize the Courtney and you think, that's who I want to be because I want revenge and power on all of the people who've wronged me as a weird teen. And then you realize that you're actually the Marcy and you're not doing anything particularly original. And then you realize you're actually the Fern and you've created this thing around yourself and you've got to kind of work to figure out what the real you is under that. I think there's a lot of like, probably a lot of like trans allegory in there as well, but it's something that I kind of

definitely relate to as like someone who's actively built an alter ego. Right. And then you have to kind of take a look at that alter ego you've built and be like, what is that informed by? And like, is that okay? Have I just absorbed a lot of misogyny and like, I'm now projecting it? Or is it like, is there some kind of balance between all of those things? LS Well, it's tricky because like, on one hand, because social status is like such an important currency for so many teens, because of the emphasis we have placed on that culturally, you understand to some degree why Fern would

be seduced by that and intrigued by that. And the context for why she ends up doing it is obviously like, oh, God, it's not worth it. You're covering up a murder. But because this movie is very heightened and, again, fantasy-ish and dreamlike and satirical, you're like, okay, I feel like it works knowing the tone of the movie, but it does make it hard to then talk about her or the characters. I wonder, I'd be curious to see like previous drafts of this script because it seems like it

changed a lot. It used to be more overtly like horror-y and then it sort of transformed into a black comedy. I feel like Derenstein like couldn't decide which way. I feel the ending for Fern was really confusing for me because it's like if the core message of this movie is the very dark, like anyone could be seduced by Courtney's offer and that like within every teenager is the capacity to like turn into a violette, then okay, stick with that. Cause at the end it felt like Julie and Fern had turned into the good guys in a way that like didn't really track for me.

I feel like it would have been more interesting and still like consistent with what the tone of the movie is to like have another beat after the prom and have them all realize like, oh, like we're all fucked. And speaking to your point, Crystal, I'm curious like what Fern is gonna do now in terms of like, does she want to maintain this persona? It seems like she does to some extent.

What does that mean for her? And like in whatever broad, satirical way, but it was, I just felt at the end, like it was turned into a very clean ending, where it's like, okay, we've killed the villain, basically. And not that Courtney doesn't have it coming, she absolutely does, but everyone else sort of went under-examined.

That point was emphasized versus having a clean dismount for anyone else. And Marcy, too, I thought Marcy was, for the most part she's not really allowed to do much except be like, ha ha, yeah, exactly. Which is her, I think she's like the Gretchen Wieners, I guess, of the operation. But you get one scene of background for her weirdly,

which, like she's like, so interesting. Her single dad. I was like, her single dad. Interesting. I was like more of whatever that was please. Like, yeah, can we talk about that thing? Because of all of the girls to get a family background scene. I mean, you do see Julie's mom in passing, but like, very briefly, but you get a whole scene with Marcy and her famously single dad And it's a really good really weird scene

Yeah, it almost doesn't make sense within the context of the rest of the story But I was like it makes her look worse like but right I guess it characterizes Marcy a bit more but yeah, I was like, why is this scene here exactly? Similar to like, why is the scene where Courtney makes her jock boyfriend give oral sex to a popsicle, I guess to show how twisted and sick she is. She kind of coerces him into doing it too. Yeah, she does. Yeah.

I feel like this further proves that this movie is meant to be consumed as vibes only because why we cut from that scene with Marcy and her dad to Liz emerging from the pool and apparently she and Julie were best friends and you're like, huh, what? Anyways, I really enjoyed the scene with Marcy and her dad. and apparently she and Julie were best friends. And you're like, huh, what? Anyways, I really enjoyed this scene with Marcy and her dad. It felt like it was so weird that she,

sort of the lowest ranking character on the character I need to know more about here, gets this scene. But I really enjoyed it. I mean, the dad being like, I was watching Oprah and I think you might be a follower. And she's like, Shut up, dad. It was cool. I don't know. Like having that scene made me realize and just think like how the movies this movie is compared to has more of that and has more of the like the heightened entire society. And like then I

was thinking of the funeral scene at Heather's, why didn't we get to go to Liz's memorial? Stuff that you think would be there that just sort of happens off screen and isn't really referenced. Well, it's possible that this entire movie takes place in like three days. I think so. True. Yeah, maybe the memorial hasn't happened. Yeah, it's very hard to say how much time has passed. Like, it's simultaneously been enough time for Violet to become the queen of high school, but also like not enough

time for there to have been a memorial or like a proper investigation. I don't know, it's confusing. It's stretchy movie logic time. Yeah, I'm sure someone's made a seven hour YouTube video about it. Like, I've cracked the timeline and I would watch that. What do we think about Courtney and that sex scene with her boyfriend, not the Marilyn Manson one? I agree with Caitlin. I don't know why it's there. I mean, I get that it's like making

the point of like she is hypersexual and that is like a part of why I feel like we're kind of encouraged to like celebrate and judge her at the same time because it is fun watching Rose McGowan be evil. But also I think she is like coercing the other character. I mean, I guess the function of the scene is to reinforce how coercive she is not only with her like girlfriends

but with her like hetero man partner and he doesn't protest really so it almost is suggesting maybe like look at the power and control she has over everyone we already know that, so I don't really know why we need to see another scene. I mean, I'm not upset about a sex scene itself, but yeah, the way it's presented is like, eh, the thing that I liked about Courtney's relationship, if you could call it that, with that guy is that she is very clear-headed

about what high school relationships are, and she's like, I don't care about what happens to him in 48 hours. He is a status symbol for me. And I feel like that was at least something I don't think I've seen a lot in teen movies is like teen girls in these like very movie hetero relationships treating the guy like garbage. And accessory. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

True. So there's that. This was the first time I watched it and I wondered if Courtney was maybe gay. Interesting. I mean Fern is very maybe gay. I agree. Yeah. But maybe Courtney too. And like, but maybe she hasn't, she's even like deeper in the

closet in a way. Yeah. But like, the creating of a woman and using sex as like a tool rather than like seeming to have any real interest and using a man as like a social status tool. I don't know. There's, there's kind of lots of that. And then like having her own phallus with that popsicle. Yeah. I was like, this is really gay for Courtney, this whole scene.

Yeah. Yeah, with the dynamic with Fern and Courtney, too, where, I mean, Courtney is obsessed with control no matter what, but it's like when her creation is out of her control, that's where it seems like it becomes personal for her in a way that we rarely see things be personal. Yeah, I buy into that theory. And also, yeah, Fern is like heavily,

I mean, I don't even know if you could really call it coding. It's not like, I don't know. I mean, we don't see Fern have, the only love interest she pursues that is a man is because Courtney told her to do it. It wasn't because she had any actual interest. She was just doing what her Frankenstein said to do. Right. Meanwhile, she's telling Detective Pam Grier, like, I used to smell Liz's hair and look at the birthmarks on the back of her neck.

The salmon. The salmon and the sea creatures and the da-da-da. So, you know, it seems like she's very, like, amorously infatuated with Liz. Which is, like, a fine... I like that, you know, everyone in this movie is evil, so it's not like she's being set up to be a queer villain necessarily. But that just, like like that also just gave me

a story problems where I was like, why wasn't she more upset that Liz died if she was in love with her? Yes. But it's the constant gay conundrum of like, am I in love with you or do I want to be you? And so someone's now giving you, you've only got one choice left because she's dead and someone saying, well, you could be her. You could be Liz. Well, I guess we'll try it. Next best thing.

Yeah. Brutal. I mean, those line reads that Judy Greer gives Detective Pam Greer, wow, two Greers. The Greers. Two Greers, one room. About you know, like their version of it's Chinatown Jake. Like they're like, it's high school. No one is a friend.

Really. Good reference, Jamie. Thank you. I've never seen that movie, but I do. Let me be clear. I haven't seen it. If you've seen Who Framed Roger Rabbit, you've basically seen Chinatown. Great.

Then I have definitely seen Chinatown. Then I've seen it a hundred times. But yeah, I mean, you get those lines of like, is anyone in high school really a friend? Which is a very dark, I don't know, all the click movies have to sort of abide by that logic. And it's, especially if you had a hard time in high school, is very cathartic and fun.

That relates to a separate, kind of broader issue I have with the idea of like mainstream movies about teen girl friendship because so many of them have a premise of like they're very mean and cruel to each other if not violent and murder each other. And this is one of those movies, you know, obviously Mean Girls is another one. Obviously, Heather's is another one. They all exist in the same, like, they're all kind of inspired by each other. And then you've got like more contemporary examples, like Do Revenge. And I'm just sort of waiting for teen girl movies that center on their friendship because another version of teen girl movies

is their hetero love interests. I mean, they do exist though. You've got your Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants. You've got your Now and Zens. Yeah, but those feel just kind of few and far between. I'm always like, why aren't there more stories that celebrate female friendship and don't have them be outwardly cruel

and or violent to each other? So I don't know. I mean, I agree with you. But I do think those movies are out there and I find them more boring. Well, there aren't enough of them. There could be more fun ones and like they could be in different genres.

They could be fun like adventure movies. They could be in different genres. They could be fun like adventure movies. They could be, you know, anything. I guess there's quite a few horror movies to that effect. But again, like ones that center on friendship and like girls working together. And sure, there's going to be misunderstandings or arguments along the way. That's how friendship works. I'm going to see Harriet the Spy this weekend. I'm so excited. Nice. Basically, you're pitching this movie, this weekend, I'm so excited. Nice.

Basically you're pitching this movie but it turns into Weekend at Bernie's. Yes! Actually, a movie I've never seen also but I know the premise. They just have to get Liz to graduation. Hijinks ensue. They gotta get her to prom. She's gotta win prom queen anyways. Just put some sunglasses and a scarf around her neck, a little cravat, if you will.

More dark high school comedies revolving around function, well, not functional, but like common goal friendships between teen girls. I think one thing that I wish, I don't know, if I could change one thing about Jawbreaker, I would replace Zack with another teenage girl. Like plant a character that Julie can become friends with, someone who can be, you know, like plant her earlier in the movie.

Does Fern have one friend who she's completely bailed on, who is now like, where the fuck is Fern at? And Julie can connect with her. Like, I feel like there is space to sort of address what you're not completely, because Courtney is going to Courtney and Marcy's going to Marcy, all that. But to have at least a positive connection between teen girls in this movie or a functional connection between teen girls in this movie, or a functional connection between teen girls, because I agree that like,

Zach, I don't mind being in a world where it's like, everyone hates each other and it's evil, but if that world is, if the only person who is not that is a random boyfriend, then I feel like you've kind of got a problem where, because Zach all of a sudden has a ton of agency and is like the moral center of the movie and almost everyone else you see is an evil woman, like you're just like, well, what is this?

I feel like replacing him with a teen girl that Julie can genuinely connect with instead of just being told that she was Liz's friend. We're told about positive connections between these girls, but we never actually see it and it never has any narrative consequence. Right. Yeah, and it still bugs me that he's the one who like rigs up the whole sound system thing. Like that's not his victory to accomplish. Like he again, he's just like this random dude. And to give the boy a technical technology thing to do, kind of suggesting, well, girls don't know how to do technology. It just annoys me.

Yeah. Maybe the problem I feel with this movie, which is also its strength, we've talked a lot about how these are kind of cartoon characters, and therefore they're kind of missing what you've been looking for, Caitlin, which is like deeper connection. And I think that's basically going to be a limitation of a man writing a movie about teen girls. This is true. And he's got a leg up because he's gay and so he's kind of hitting some of the marks, but he's not hitting all of the marks. And I think

there is a bit of a feeling that I come away with with this movie that all of the women in this are kind of being treated like Barbies or dolls for him. They're acting out these tropes and these scenes and these ideas that he's got, but there's a little bit missing from the meat. And I think that's what makes me feel a little bit of a lack. On the other hand, I don't know anyone other than a gay man who could write a Courtney. And it's like, she is a gay man's revenge fantasy, power fantasy. She's like the frankenfurter. She's like the Frankenfurter. She's got so much to her that I'm so glad exists and it's like fun to see villains like that who exist. So I don't know that I necessarily want anything to change, but like as you say, it's almost like a different movie made by

a different person would solve some of these problems and potentially overcorrect some of the good things. Right. Yeah. It's tricky. I do feel like it's possible to make movies in the dark teen comedy genre that avoid some of these mistakes. But I think viewing it as playing with Barbies actually kind of does, even with the dream logic aspects, this could be staged by Barbies. And yeah, there was certain parts where I was like, Rose McGowan is just going like full Joan Crawford. And it's great. I don't know.

I don't know what I want this movie to do that it's not doing. It doesn't feel like a movie that could really go another way. But yeah, I agree with you, Caitlin, that like having some sort of functional or just like more layered relationship between women. Because I would say Mean Girls has a lot of the similar problems of this, but at least we do understand why these friendships aren't functioning and that they're not just inherently evil.

It's like you understand what the communication breakdown is between Katie and Janice or like whatever it is, which does just feel like something that comes from experience probably. Yeah, and like more money and more time with this script and edits and a big red marker and lots of that. And you kind of do all of that to Jawbreaker and you get Mean Girls.

Yeah, right. I don't know. I feel bad because it's like I really did enjoy this movie. And I know how beloved it is. And it's like a classic, like bombed at the box office and then found its footing at sleepovers, which is like as it should be. It is tricky.

I don't know. The biggest swing for this movie that I was like, was that necessary? Was just the fundamental plot element of like, we need to make it seem as if she's been raped. Yeah. Because again, it's like, yes, that is something that is the most evil character in the world

who is Courtney would do. But again, it just like makes all of the other characters that we're supposed to be rooting for look really terrible. And like, I understand why Derenstein is taking that swing because it is like, it's an edgelord writer decision, I feel like, of like, what is the most extreme, potentially offensive thing I could make this character do. But I it could have been literally anything else. It could have been something else bad. I just didn't I don't know that decision just like didn't sit well with me

at all. Me either. Because it's movies like this that contribute to the perpetuation of the idea that reports of rape are actually often false and made up and you can't trust anyone who says they've been raped when in reality it is not very common for a rape allegation to be false and it is statistically far more likely for a rape to happen and not be reported than it is for a Rape to be reported and have it be a false accusation, but there's all this media like this movie That supports this idea that rape accusations tend to be bogus and that has like really horrible real-world consequences and so that is the big thing for this movie that rubs me the wrong way. I feel like kind of similarly Courtney,

and again, this is like the evil character having this behavior and having these ideas, but that she tends to kind of conflate kink with rape. And I can't really tell how the movie feels about it or if it's just like, oh, this is the evil character. But because to me that distinction isn't very clear as far as like how the movie feels about it and it that should be a clearer distinction. I don't know. It just we've covered a lot of movies from this exact year. STACEY It's a big year for movies. GIGI For lots of movies and then specifically teen movies that have like at least one fundamental,

highly problematic element. I'm thinking like Cruel intentions and she's all that and never been kissed and stuff like that. But you'll have characters in those movies who are just dropping very of the era, like casual homophobia, casual racism, and the movie's not challenging it. And it's just like, yeah, this is just reflection of the culture of the time. In this movie, you do have characters making disparaging remarks about like, girls, how much they weigh and having eating disorders and disparaging remarks about queer people, about people with disabilities. But I think those are always like the evil mean girl characters and the satire of the movie, I feel like suggests, oh, well, the movie is not endorsing these attitudes. But I don't feel the same way for how it handles this

false rape accusation component of the movie. Yeah, I just feel like he was not the writer to even attempt something this extreme just based on how it's executed. And the fact that like it could have been something else and the movie would not have had to change. Right. I think that honestly going for a more weekend at Bernie's gag there is like still tonally consistent can still be really dark and would not make yeah, make a pretty like broad negative statement about rape allegations. Especially in a movie that, you know, it's not that anyone knew,

but that prominently features Marilyn Manson, you're just like, ay, ay, ay. Yeah. Feels like a good reminder. Yeah, I just wish that they had done a weekend at Bernie's style gag instead of that. Yeah, it's like so many of the choices in this movie are silly or campy or over the top

or like you're clearly kind of not meant to take it that seriously. And then they throw in this like actually, really? I don't know why I feel that like a death is worse, but it doesn't feel as bad because it's also portrayed in this really silly way. And actually Courtney's sex scene with Marilyn Manson, it's like all of that, it is all hard to watch and yeah maybe

Darren wasn't quite the right person to be taking on that topic. But yeah, I mean it's like this isn't like a specific problem with Darren Stein. I mean like Caitlin, like you were saying, in this year alone, there were a lot of big swings in teen movies that just aged spectacularly bad. And this is the one that this one does. I do think I wish that Darren Stein, I mean, he should have been directing more stuff. I'm kind of surprised that we haven't seen as much from him. And that always kind of especially when you have a marginalized director, I'm always kind of like side-eyeing why haven't they made more when they made sure it didn't do great at the box office, but it became this big iconic movie and you know whenever if you have a straight white director how many flops are they permitted to unleash upon

the world. I don't know what the story there is maybe he took a step back. I'm not totally sure but I always do just kind of side eye that kind of thing. Totally, especially when he's clearly got so many ideas. Right. Yeah. So many choices are made in this movie that like it needed someone creative and visionary to do, you know, the way the sound editing is, it's just like one example. It's like someone was really like creatively running on both cylinders when they made this

movie. There's so many goofy like boy, boy, boy, boy sound effects during like scene transitions and stuff. This is the second movie we've covered recently that we also recently covered 16 Candles, which he does cite like the John Hughes teen movies as an influence. But we just covered 16 Candles the other day for the matriot and there is boy is the Howard Stern soundboard out on that movie and kind of on this one too. Uh huh. Yeah. The sproings. There's like one time when the jock is like leeringly looking

over at Courtney and you hear like some creepy, I don't know, tongue waggle noise. Yeah. creepy I don't know tongue waggle noise la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la And the whole makeover scene which is like something out of poor things like gothic Frankenstein in vibrant jawbreaker colours and yeah potions and spinning chairs and like yeah it's so psychedelic it's really cool. So I totally agree basically he should have been allowed to do more and make more. And he's like in his early 50s. I hope that happens. Yeah. There is a movie called GBF, which my friend actually wrote and Darren directed, which

is kind of... Oh wow. Yes. It's almost the gay version of your teen movie and it's got gay protagonists in high school and it's exploring the idea of popularity as well. But you don't need to imagine yourself as Courtney. You can just see yourself. And that's a beautiful thing. I remember hearing about that movie. I haven't seen it though. It stands for gay best friend, right? Yeah. GBF. Yeah. Yeah. I remember when it came out, I feel like it may be worth at least briefly acknowledging Rose McGowan and the history she has with being a TERF, where if

anyone's not familiar, back in 2017, she went on RuPaul's podcast and said some very TERFy transphobic things. I didn't know that. Although even before that, I was reading that she, a couple years earlier, said some remarks either to or about Caitlyn Jenner that were also transphobic. Then at a book event a few months after this podcast appearance in early 2018, a trans woman confronted her about her remarks and Rose McGowan told her to shut up and then proceeded to go on a transphobic rant. Jesus.

Sometime later, she gave what I feel is not a great apology. Others might feel differently, you know, who of us can actually know how a celebrity who has a very like public performative kind of life, how they actually feel personally. But I feel like she realized that being transphobic wasn't great for her image. So she walked back a lot of her comments in order to restore her image or maybe she genuinely learned and

listened and feels differently. We haven't really heard anything about it since I don't think because the following year it was when she was in the news again but this time revolving around the Me Too movement. Thank you for sharing that because I was not aware. Oh I remembered when it happened so I like that was just in the back of my mind as I was watching the movie. I've just skimmed her apology from 2019. I don't know if that's the one you're referencing. Yeah. From, I think pink news. Yeah. And you know, it's not certainly not my apology to accept, but I don't mind it as an apology, but I am,

I am skimming while we're on in real time. I completely forgot all about that. Yeah. skimming while we're on the- at that I suppose. Yeah, she is. Do we have any other thoughts about the movie? I don't think so. I mean, I wanted to echo what Crystal said earlier and that like this is a very white movie. I think the only people of color who have any, I mean, it's really just detective Pam Greer and she's doing a terrible job. And there's a Tatiana Ali character as a Tatiana Ali fan named Brenda who appears for

a hot second. Oh, she tries to befriend Violet, right? Yes, and she's just like, you're so awesome. Also, my name is Brenda. And then she's gone. She was in Fresh Prince, right? Yeah, yeah. She was a titan of Nick at Night to me. But yeah, outside of that, it is like a very white movie

in a way that is in no way necessary. Like not that it's ever necessary, but there's no like historical context. We have no idea where this movie is necessarily taking place. Like it should be a more diverse world with a more diverse cast. And instead it is 1999 and these kinds of creative decisions

were made all the time. Yes. As far as the Bechdel test goes. Not a problem. Not a problem, passes a lot. In fact, they're rarely talking about boys. They're almost always talking about, how do we cover up the murder of our friend that we did?

And I'm gonna make you a star. Yeah, why do we cover up the murder of our friend that we did? And I'm gonna make you a star. Yeah. Why do we hate each other? Yeah. Yeah. So that is nice. I do appreciate that boys are not the center of their worlds, the way a lot of media about teen girls like presents boys as being so much of their focus and everything, but like the prom king character,

this good looking jock boy is like an afterthought in most scenes if he appears at all. And the only time he gets prominently featured is when Courtney kind of forces him into filleting a popsicle. And you know, feel about that how you want, but. Outside of Zack though, I mean, yeah, men really have no consequence in this world.

Exactly. And that's a rare thing to see in a movie, it's fun. As far as our nipple scale, man, this is another one of those movies where I'm just like, I don't know. Two and a half, I'll just do again, the Bechdel Cast cheat code, which is just. Split the diff.

Split down the middle, 2.5. I appreciate its legacy as a cult movie with a following that is largely she's, as and gays kind of thing. It does center women, by and large. The women are misbehaving and I do appreciate that. I like to see girls doing bad things sometimes. Wow, that's really brave stance to take. doing bad things sometimes. Wow, that's a really brave stance to take. Girls gone wild, if you will. I love it when girls go wild, yeah.

Rarely behaved women, history makes, said somebody. Fridge magnet. So I do appreciate that. And I don't mind that it's like an entry into the like, oeuvre of mean girls being mean to each other in high school. I just wish that there were more examples of that not being the case that do center teen girls having

like solid friendships, but it's an interesting movie. It's way interesting movie. It's way too white. The way it handles the concept of rape allegations and false rape allegations is very, very messy. And the thing that holds up the least well about the movie, I think because of that, I'll drop it down to two nipples. I'll give one to Pam Greer and I'll drop it down to two nipples. I'll give one to Pam Greer, and I'll give the other to Judy Greer.

The Greers get my nips. I'll do two and a half. I think that this movie is like taking a lot of big swings. It is, I wish it had done better at the time. I understand maybe why it didn't because there were a lot of movies like this and just such a glut of teen movies in this particular year. But I also think that, you know, very often with marginalized directors, they don't get the marketing power behind their work that they deserve. And I admire

what Darren Stein's going for here. I think that there's a lot of the big swings do not connect for me. But, you know, I think it's earned its place in the sleepover pantheon. So I'll go two and a half nipples. I'm gonna give, I'm giving a full set to Pam Greer because she just was cracking me up. Her character also wildly inconsistent where she's like really onto the girls and then just drops it.

For what? Who knows? And I'll give my final half nip to, I guess I'll give it to the denim jacket that Rebecca Gay Heart wears because it does a lot of narrative heavy lifting. The jacket didn't know it would have to work that hard and I respect that. I'm gonna go a little higher. I think I'm gonna go three and a half nipples and that's partially I think because of the nostalgia I have for this movie. But I agree with everything that you've said, you know, a lot of the swings

don't connect but I think a lot of them do and I think it's kind of a really important stepping stone movie for a lot of what we've got today. So I'm really, really happy it exists and it's been a formative movie for me in lots of ways. So I'm glad about it. I'm going to give a half nipple to that stillborn chick. Oh, I forgot about that part. Oh my god. That is great. Yeah. And I'm going to give the three nipples to the goth girl.

Oh, yes. Who puts her finger in the bowl. Yeah Bless her heart. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well crystal. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me I don't know if we cracked it, but we kind of did it turns out it's complicated. It's tricky. It's tricky We didn't break the jaw breaker. I would say but we gave it our all we peeled off a couple layers Onions have layers. Jawbreakers have layers. What would you like to plug? Tell us where we can find your stuff.

Ah, thank you. You can follow me on all the channels at Crystal. We'll see you now. And I've got all kinds of content all the time. So check it out. Please do. It's great. content all the time. So check it out.

Please do. It's great. And you can follow us on Instagram at Bechtelcast. You can subscribe to our Patreon, AKA matrion at patreon.com slash Bechtelcast where you'll get two bonus episodes every single month with Jamie and myself. We're talking really cool themes. We're talking really sassy, sexy episodes. You know, you don't want to miss them. It's a friggin' blast.

I'll say it. I'll say it. Yeah, and this month, I mean, we're obviously getting into scary movie season, so we are covering Pearl and The Exorcist. And you also get the backlog of over 150 episodes going on 200 at this point, I think. So join the matriarch. It's a fun community. And if you're looking for a way to support the show, that's the best way to support the show. You can also get our merch at teapublic.com slash the Bechdel cast. Get all your holiday needs. Whatever. None of our

business. It's none of our business, okay? Oh yeah, spooky season's coming up and so you're gonna want our Beetlejuice wet scabs, dry scabs shirts. Yeah, I was thinking of suspicious lack of wet scabs. We should have been pushing those shirts ahead of the new movie, but. Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice.

Live, laugh, love. With that, shall we get in the trunk of our friend's car on purpose? I'm getting on the hood. Okay. And then we'll have a little fun road trip. We'll see you next week. Okay, bye. Bye. The Bechtel cast is a production of iHeart Media hosted by Caitlin Durante and Jamie

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